Author Topic: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death  (Read 4212 times)

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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #90 on: July 21, 2017, 10:37:11 AM »
I don't know about anglicans or methodists, but reformed/presbyterians, at least in my experience, reject sacramentalism and usually the pastors will give a zwinglian definition of Eucharist and say that that moment is just a memorial, no real presence in the elements.

They don't believe Christ is in the elements locally or that the elements are changed in any way, but traditionally they believed the act of receiving communicates the body and blood of Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit.  So, the Reformed doctrine has been the most fragile of all the explanations, the most subject to modernism's encroachments.

One of your sentences is unlike the other.

I don't see how.  The view of classical Reformed theology is more like receptionism.  It's true it leans more on a nominalist understanding philosophically of the relationship between signs and the things symbolized, but it's still far from memorialism.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #91 on: July 21, 2017, 10:45:46 AM »
That's true. The Calvinist view is very contorted and it is possible to squeeze some notion of "real presence" into it, but yes, "fragile" is the right word for it. The Reformed, much more than the Lutherans, were deeply influenced by Renaissance humanism and the Platonic revival and seem driven to divorce religion from materiality as much as possible. The eucharist seems to be the one thing flimsily tethering their doctrine to earth.
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #92 on: July 21, 2017, 10:49:30 AM »
There is a real tendency in the US for the Reformed to lose their identity and become like "wet-baby Baptists".  In continental European Reformed churches, the sacraments have always had more importance as the ordinary means of grace.

Well, I live in Brazil, and brazilian protestantism is highly influentiated by north-american protestantism, wich is extremely anti-catholic, so anything resembling roman catholicism is usually avoided, so any kind of view of the sacraments as a mean of grace is non-existent in most of protestant denominations.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #93 on: July 21, 2017, 01:00:22 PM »
I don't know about anglicans or methodists, but reformed/presbyterians, at least in my experience, reject sacramentalism and usually the pastors will give a zwinglian definition of Eucharist and say that that moment is just a memorial, no real presence in the elements.

They don't believe Christ is in the elements locally or that the elements are changed in any way, but traditionally they believed the act of receiving communicates the body and blood of Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit.  So, the Reformed doctrine has been the most fragile of all the explanations, the most subject to modernism's encroachments.

One of your sentences is unlike the other.

I don't see how.  The view of classical Reformed theology is more like receptionism.  It's true it leans more on a nominalist understanding philosophically of the relationship between signs and the things symbolized, but it's still far from memorialism.

I just don't see how a doctrine that was thoroughly materialist to begin with is uniquely threatened by modernism, but I guess it would depend on the nuance of what you meant.
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #94 on: August 22, 2017, 09:53:26 PM »
Very smart fallen angel, very smart.

Even if God said that the gates of Hell will not overcome his church you convinced protestants that this is nottrue and helped them make a revolt.

After that you helped them choose and pick from all the gifts God put in his Church only Bible. They may have left outside the eternal life and they may have no life in them . Then you help them do the works so people would come to a Church without life probably instead of helping people go yto Orthodox Church that give people eternal life. You know that works may be of no use to a person without life in them.
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Offline maneki_neko

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #95 on: September 11, 2017, 12:21:00 AM »
As I said John 6:53 and John 6:54 are from Scripture.

The point y'all seem to miss (when posting replies or propositions such as some on this thread, as well as on various other threads over the years) is that our salvation depends on our faith in Christ, not on our understanding of Eucharistic doctrine.


Hi David, I was raised Protestant with a heavy Baptist upbringing so I think I have an understanding of what you mean, but for me Eucharistic doctrine is deeply entwined with "faith in Christ" and really are two sides of the same coin. Do I, or do I not have faith in Christ when he spoke of eating and drinking his flesh, that he spoke plainly about it being His body and that we should eat it? If it is His literal body (and it seems to me history supports that the earliest of Christians held this belief) I figure I ought to take the words of Christ seriously. If we have the chance to touch His actual body, then to me, that's the most black and white reality of whether or not we "accept Christ". It is a literal accepting of Christ (partaking in the Eucharist) or rejecting Christ (denying His body, the Eucharist).

I am not saying partaking in the Eucharist = automatic salvation, but that it's part of salvation. It's part of obedience. If we desire to be close to God, how much closer to God can the average person get on earth than the Eucharist? I see myself as the sick woman reaching out to grasp the hem of His garment. And yet how much more blessed are we to have His body and not merely His hem?

If a group is making a claim that they have the literal body of Christ, ought we not investigate that? It's a pretty bold statement to make. And if it's a true one, it radically changes a lot of things (at least it did for me).

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What if you are right about the bread and wine, and we are wrong? Does its validity, or efficacy, depend on our understanding of how it works, or on our taking the bread and wine in grateful and trusting remembrance of him whom we (like you) believe to be Lord, and to have been raised by God from the dead? If I go to the Lord's Table sorry for my sins, remembering the shed blood and broken body of our Lord on the Cross, and trusting that as God's means of atonement for my sin, why should I not receive the blessing which flows through the housel, even if my mind as a Baptist has misunderstood some of the doctrine attaching to it?

Actually I agree with a lot of what you wrote here, but it seems to me what you're saying is not wholly incompatible with Orthodox belief. I think this is one reason why we pray for the Lord to have mercy on us. Are we doing the most with what we have been given? Orthodox don't believe that salvation is solely given to those with the capability to intellectually understand all doctrinal minutiae (although I was raised the opposite; I was taught all babies, mentally handicapped, and anyone without a Baptist understanding of salvation was going to hell).

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The other wrong tree up which you bark when trying to persuade us is positing an "only true church". We don't believe there is such a thing, therefore your claim to be it fails to have an impact on us.
If there were an only true church, and if it did derive its validity from a chain of unbroken priestly succession back to the apostles, then the Orthodox Church would have a strong claim. But there isn't, and therefore it doesn't, as we see things.

I agree with the first part of your statement here as far as dialoguing with Protestants go; making a claim about a one true church doesn't make sense or hold authority as an immediate argument because the legitimacy of Protestantism rests upon the belief that no one group has a corner on truth.

However, I started to question the Bible and why it had such authority. Why as Protestants is the Bible given such authority if it was canonized by corrupt men (what I had been taught the church was once Constantine entered the picture) or the opinions of pious men (what other denominations may hold if they're more gracious towards that time period)? It's just men either way, not an "official" group of One True Church if such a thing doesn't exist. So if I don't like certain books in the Bible, why can't I just create my own? The One True Church thing became a legitimate point once I dug deeper about the Bible.

« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 12:21:17 AM by maneki_neko »
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #96 on: September 13, 2017, 07:36:49 AM »
Congratulation maneki. I see you walking toward life and eternal life leaving the realm of the dead.I see you start having faith in what Jesus said and in Bible and I see you starting to believe in Jesus words.

Read the Holy Liturgy of Apostle James and Holy Liturgy of Apostle and Evangelist Mark and see that the understandiung of Apostles is that you need to literaly drink and eat Jesus blood and flesh to have life and eternal life.

Have faith in Jesus iand in his words. They are true.
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #97 on: September 13, 2017, 07:37:59 AM »
MAneki I kindli suggest Eastern Orthodox Church especially Russian Orthodox Church if possible. Russian Orthodox Church was said by the angel that it will keep the truth in the last times.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #98 on: September 13, 2017, 11:38:31 PM »
If I would be protestant pastor I would go one year to school to become orthodox priest and to give eternal life to people that love me.

The thought has entered into my mind to become a Protestant minister just to lead a congregation out of Protestantism and into Orthodoxy.  Likely in a Protestant church that is experimenting with the Emergent and Ancient Future concepts, perhaps a parish of the United Church of Christ, which is ultra liberal, theologically, but this open mindedness might make them receptive to Eastern theology and so on.  A parish like the ECUSA parish of St. Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco might seem on the outside to be an easier target, but with the Episcopal church, the diocese owns all the buildings, whereas with a congregational church, the congregation owns it, and if you can persuade them to embrace Orthodoxy, they could leave the UCC or whatever group they are affiliated with to move to us.

But would this kind of Jesuit-esque infilitration, which Protestants have often used on the Orthodox, particularly the Oriental Orthodox church, be morally permissable from an Orthodox perspective?
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #99 on: September 13, 2017, 11:44:13 PM »
That's true. The Calvinist view is very contorted and it is possible to squeeze some notion of "real presence" into it, but yes, "fragile" is the right word for it. The Reformed, much more than the Lutherans, were deeply influenced by Renaissance humanism and the Platonic revival and seem driven to divorce religion from materiality as much as possible. The eucharist seems to be the one thing flimsily tethering their doctrine to earth.

I agree with you entirely regarding the humanist, neo-Platonic, crypto-Gnostic aspect of Reformed / Calvinist Christianity, but most Calvinists including I think John Calvin and John Knox would have vehemently denied being directly influenced by the Renaissance, humanism or Plato, or even Scholastic theology I think. 

Would you agree this influence was environmental and derives from the secular education and background of John Calvin, a lawyer by trade until he became a great heresiarch?
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Offline LBK

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #100 on: September 13, 2017, 11:56:59 PM »

The thought has entered into my mind to become a Protestant minister just to lead a congregation out of Protestantism and into Orthodoxy.  Likely in a Protestant church that is experimenting with the Emergent and Ancient Future concepts, perhaps a parish of the United Church of Christ, which is ultra liberal, theologically, but this open mindedness might make them receptive to Eastern theology and so on.  A parish like the ECUSA parish of St. Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco might seem on the outside to be an easier target, but with the Episcopal church, the diocese owns all the buildings, whereas with a congregational church, the congregation owns it, and if you can persuade them to embrace Orthodoxy, they could leave the UCC or whatever group they are affiliated with to move to us.

So you'd consider apostasy to indulge in a flight of fancy which has every chance of failure. Hmmm.  :o :P ::)
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #101 on: September 14, 2017, 12:04:03 AM »
The proof that Eastern orthodox Church has the blood and flesh of Jesus is a done by miracles in which Hoily Communion or bread and wine are literally transformed in blood and flesh on the Holy Liturgy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbcL4mkNfzM
Another such miracle was reported in our days in Romanian Orthodox Church

Another prroof that Eastern orthodox Church has the blood and flesh of Jesus or God are the writings of the Apostles beside Bible like Holy Liturgy of Apostle and Evangelist Mark http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0718.htm  He reffers to Holy Communion as flesh and blood of Jesus
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #102 on: September 14, 2017, 08:20:52 AM »
When you try to bring protestants to life fallen angel may intervene.
You are smart he is smarter.
Hou have power he can outpower you.
You have money he has a lot.
The way to defeat fallen angel is to bring God closer to and through prayer. So pray to God for protestants to come to life and to enlinghten you how you can help.`
Puttiung on a paper what you know and handling to protestants may be powerful enough and save their life.


If you read above and are protestants and in one month you are not orthodox or russian orthodox being in a state of death is time to find prayer groups on the internet and toi ask them to pray for you to be saved and to come to life and to eternal life. You can ask God to teach you religion the way he sees it.
You can not remain in a state without life at all costs.

And you can not teach children to go to protestantism because Bible says if yoyu cause these little ones to stumple beetter is to put a stone on your neck and throw it in to sea.
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #103 on: September 14, 2017, 08:34:13 AM »
Once in orthodox Church it is for life. If you exits and go to some other Church you may go to Hell.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #104 on: September 14, 2017, 02:12:41 PM »

The thought has entered into my mind to become a Protestant minister just to lead a congregation out of Protestantism and into Orthodoxy.  Likely in a Protestant church that is experimenting with the Emergent and Ancient Future concepts, perhaps a parish of the United Church of Christ, which is ultra liberal, theologically, but this open mindedness might make them receptive to Eastern theology and so on.  A parish like the ECUSA parish of St. Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco might seem on the outside to be an easier target, but with the Episcopal church, the diocese owns all the buildings, whereas with a congregational church, the congregation owns it, and if you can persuade them to embrace Orthodoxy, they could leave the UCC or whatever group they are affiliated with to move to us.

So you'd consider apostasy to indulge in a flight of fancy which has every chance of failure. Hmmm.  :o :P ::)

No, because I would secretly remain Orthodox.  I would engage in dissimulation, in order to take the Protestant congregation into the Orthodox church.  And if the project looked to be a failure, I would abandon it.

Protestants have used these tactics against the Oriental Orthodox; I believe the Jesuits used these tactics for missionary purposes in several contexts; the real question is, is it ethical for Orthodox to engage in dissimulation to infiltrate heterodox churches and guide them into Orthodoxy?

Specifically, can an Orthodox dissimulate his Orthodoxy and assume a veil of Protestantism while remaining Orthodoxy and without engaging in an ethical contradiction contrary to the faith.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

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This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #105 on: September 14, 2017, 02:17:44 PM »

The thought has entered into my mind to become a Protestant minister just to lead a congregation out of Protestantism and into Orthodoxy.  Likely in a Protestant church that is experimenting with the Emergent and Ancient Future concepts, perhaps a parish of the United Church of Christ, which is ultra liberal, theologically, but this open mindedness might make them receptive to Eastern theology and so on.  A parish like the ECUSA parish of St. Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco might seem on the outside to be an easier target, but with the Episcopal church, the diocese owns all the buildings, whereas with a congregational church, the congregation owns it, and if you can persuade them to embrace Orthodoxy, they could leave the UCC or whatever group they are affiliated with to move to us.

So you'd consider apostasy to indulge in a flight of fancy which has every chance of failure. Hmmm.  :o :P ::)

No, because I would secretly remain Orthodox.  I would engage in dissimulation, in order to take the Protestant congregation into the Orthodox church.  And if the project looked to be a failure, I would abandon it.

Protestants have used these tactics against the Oriental Orthodox; I believe the Jesuits used these tactics for missionary purposes in several contexts; the real question is, is it ethical for Orthodox to engage in dissimulation to infiltrate heterodox churches and guide them into Orthodoxy?

Phrased another way: Is it ethical to deny Christ so that you can later praise him?

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #106 on: September 14, 2017, 02:23:21 PM »
But if predatory protestants and Jesuits did it, it must be okay, right? Heck, even Jim Jones was in on this dissimulation action!
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 02:23:39 PM by Iconodule »
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Offline Hinterlander

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #107 on: September 14, 2017, 03:31:31 PM »
MAneki I kindli suggest Eastern Orthodox Church especially Russian Orthodox Church if possible. Russian Orthodox Church was said by the angel that it will keep the truth in the last times.

Which Angel is "the angel"?

Your sowing seeds of division by claiming one jurisdiction of the Church is better or preferable to others. 

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #108 on: September 14, 2017, 03:38:43 PM »

The thought has entered into my mind to become a Protestant minister just to lead a congregation out of Protestantism and into Orthodoxy.  Likely in a Protestant church that is experimenting with the Emergent and Ancient Future concepts, perhaps a parish of the United Church of Christ, which is ultra liberal, theologically, but this open mindedness might make them receptive to Eastern theology and so on.  A parish like the ECUSA parish of St. Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco might seem on the outside to be an easier target, but with the Episcopal church, the diocese owns all the buildings, whereas with a congregational church, the congregation owns it, and if you can persuade them to embrace Orthodoxy, they could leave the UCC or whatever group they are affiliated with to move to us.

So you'd consider apostasy to indulge in a flight of fancy which has every chance of failure. Hmmm.  :o :P ::)

No, because I would secretly remain Orthodox.  I would engage in dissimulation, in order to take the Protestant congregation into the Orthodox church.  And if the project looked to be a failure, I would abandon it.

Protestants have used these tactics against the Oriental Orthodox; I believe the Jesuits used these tactics for missionary purposes in several contexts; the real question is, is it ethical for Orthodox to engage in dissimulation to infiltrate heterodox churches and guide them into Orthodoxy?

Phrased another way: Is it ethical to deny Christ so that you can later praise him?

Phrased another way: what do y'all think about being an Orthodox Harriet Tubman? Lit.
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #109 on: September 15, 2017, 07:10:53 AM »
Quote
Protestants have used these tactics against the Oriental Orthodox; I believe the Jesuits used these tactics for missionary purposes in several contexts; the real question is, is it ethical for Orthodox to engage in dissimulation to infiltrate heterodox churches and guide them into Orthodoxy?

No, it is not ethical to infiltrate a religious group, pretend that you are one of them to lead them to your religious group, a christian must avoid deception and dissimulation.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #110 on: September 15, 2017, 11:07:36 AM »

The thought has entered into my mind to become a Protestant minister just to lead a congregation out of Protestantism and into Orthodoxy.  Likely in a Protestant church that is experimenting with the Emergent and Ancient Future concepts, perhaps a parish of the United Church of Christ, which is ultra liberal, theologically, but this open mindedness might make them receptive to Eastern theology and so on.  A parish like the ECUSA parish of St. Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco might seem on the outside to be an easier target, but with the Episcopal church, the diocese owns all the buildings, whereas with a congregational church, the congregation owns it, and if you can persuade them to embrace Orthodoxy, they could leave the UCC or whatever group they are affiliated with to move to us.

So you'd consider apostasy to indulge in a flight of fancy which has every chance of failure. Hmmm.  :o :P ::)

No, because I would secretly remain Orthodox.  I would engage in dissimulation, in order to take the Protestant congregation into the Orthodox church.  And if the project looked to be a failure, I would abandon it.

Protestants have used these tactics against the Oriental Orthodox; I believe the Jesuits used these tactics for missionary purposes in several contexts; the real question is, is it ethical for Orthodox to engage in dissimulation to infiltrate heterodox churches and guide them into Orthodoxy?

Phrased another way: Is it ethical to deny Christ so that you can later praise him?

No.

However, consider this scenario:

I become the pastor of a congregational church interested in ancient-future worship.  In the process of doing this I openly state I am baptized Orthodox, and if pressed, would not deny being an Orthodox Christian.  In fact, I might advertise my Orthodoxy and my familiarity with the Orthodox liturgical rites in order to get hired as "their man" to get them the ancient-future worship they want.

Then, over the course of the following years, I would implement the Orthodox liturgy, while satisfying the future aspect by installing iPads in the pews to provide interactive devotional aids to the service.  I would seek to build a following.

Then, at an opportune moment, I would propose to the congregation that we join the Orthodox Church.  To make this appealing to the ancient-future set, I would describe the thrills of chrismation and the hierarchical divine liturgy, and also dissuade anyones fears about the church being less open or friendly to women by stressing the antidoron and reading plenty of Metropolitan Kallistos Ware.  Indeed we would study it actively in the years proceeding up to this.

I would also not formally renounce my membership of the Orthodox Church, and ideally, a bishop would approve of the plan as a prototype of a procedure designed to scoop ancienf-future and emergent congregations, which I believe are ripe for conversion, into Holy Orthodoxy.

This approach would avoid the dissimulation I mentioned earlier.

Another even safer approach would be for the Orthodox Church to actively market itself to ancient future congregations.  Also, we should publish service books targeting them.

One great example of a book I see being perfect for the ancient future set is Praying With The Orthodox Tradition, which features a forward by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware.  Its actually a bit novel, in that the hours in it are composed from prayers said by the priest or bishop in ancient and disused codices, prayers which are no longer used by the Eastern church but which were a part of its liturgical life 1200 years ago.

The book, along with A Psalter for Prayer, is one of the two most user friendly prayer books I have seen.  Both I believe would lend themselves to congregational use.

Now, this last bit may be controversial, but we've seen videos of Episcopalians and others attempting to celibrate our liturgy.  I think we should offer to help, using the fact that they want to use our prayers as an inroad to making contact; if the people in Episcopal or other churches start routinely using our liturgy, they will be more disposed to join our church, and their congregation or denomination will in a strict sense be engaging in more correct worship, albeit in a situation of ecclesiological and canonical irregularity. 

I think we should celibrate the fact that Byzantine icons are popping up in places like Westminster Abbey.  This is to our advantage.  The mainline churches and some evangelicals are becoming disposed to worship like we do.  We are getting into their hearts.  The situation is the exact opposite of that faced by the Oxford Movement of Anglo Catholics in the 1830s, when most Englishmen regarded rhe idea of the Mass as anathema; within 100 years, the Church of England had attempted to introduce a BCP reformed along Catholic lined, had large numbers of Anglo Catholic parishes, and even had parishes like St. Magnus the Martyr where the Roman mass was being said in Latin.  Today, one can say that throughout most of the Anglican Communion, Anglo Catholicism has won, and what today is considered low church Anglicanism would have been considered high church a century ago, with the exception of a few evangelical parishes which have gone the praise and worship route, like Holy Trinity Brampton.  High churchmanship is normative.

Also, huge numbers of English converted to Roman Catholicism, crossing the Tiber from Anglo Catholicism, a process which continues even today.


We face an infinitely better strategic situation in that people are actively copying and using our services and are trying to incorporate Eastern Christian "spirituality" into their parishes.  Some are praying the Jesus Prayer!  Look at the Anglican Rosary for an example.  They are using our icons and praying our prayers.

As i see it, we have two options: we can resent them for counterfeiting us and bogarting our style, or we can interpret this as an opportunity for evangelism, and seize rhe day in a positive way.  Surely the latter option is preferrable.
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #111 on: September 18, 2017, 09:59:57 AM »

The thought has entered into my mind to become a Protestant minister just to lead a congregation out of Protestantism and into Orthodoxy.  Likely in a Protestant church that is experimenting with the Emergent and Ancient Future concepts, perhaps a parish of the United Church of Christ, which is ultra liberal, theologically, but this open mindedness might make them receptive to Eastern theology and so on.  A parish like the ECUSA parish of St. Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco might seem on the outside to be an easier target, but with the Episcopal church, the diocese owns all the buildings, whereas with a congregational church, the congregation owns it, and if you can persuade them to embrace Orthodoxy, they could leave the UCC or whatever group they are affiliated with to move to us.

So you'd consider apostasy to indulge in a flight of fancy which has every chance of failure. Hmmm.  :o :P ::)

No, because I would secretly remain Orthodox.  I would engage in dissimulation, in order to take the Protestant congregation into the Orthodox church.  And if the project looked to be a failure, I would abandon it.

Protestants have used these tactics against the Oriental Orthodox; I believe the Jesuits used these tactics for missionary purposes in several contexts; the real question is, is it ethical for Orthodox to engage in dissimulation to infiltrate heterodox churches and guide them into Orthodoxy?

Phrased another way: Is it ethical to deny Christ so that you can later praise him?

No.

However, consider this scenario:

I become the pastor of a congregational church interested in ancient-future worship.  In the process of doing this I openly state I am baptized Orthodox, and if pressed, would not deny being an Orthodox Christian.  In fact, I might advertise my Orthodoxy and my familiarity with the Orthodox liturgical rites in order to get hired as "their man" to get them the ancient-future worship they want.

Then, over the course of the following years, I would implement the Orthodox liturgy, while satisfying the future aspect by installing iPads in the pews to provide interactive devotional aids to the service.  I would seek to build a following.

Then, at an opportune moment, I would propose to the congregation that we join the Orthodox Church.  To make this appealing to the ancient-future set, I would describe the thrills of chrismation and the hierarchical divine liturgy, and also dissuade anyones fears about the church being less open or friendly to women by stressing the antidoron and reading plenty of Metropolitan Kallistos Ware.  Indeed we would study it actively in the years proceeding up to this.

I would also not formally renounce my membership of the Orthodox Church, and ideally, a bishop would approve of the plan as a prototype of a procedure designed to scoop ancienf-future and emergent congregations, which I believe are ripe for conversion, into Holy Orthodoxy.

This approach would avoid the dissimulation I mentioned earlier.

Phrased another way: Is it ethical to commit adultery if you have the proper clerical clearance and you eventually plan to make an honest woman of her?

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Another even safer approach would be for the Orthodox Church to actively market itself to ancient future congregations.  Also, we should publish service books targeting them.
I'm super wary of any instance of "marketing" being introduced into the equation.

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One great example of a book I see being perfect for the ancient future set is Praying With The Orthodox Tradition, which features a forward by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware.  Its actually a bit novel, in that the hours in it are composed from prayers said by the priest or bishop in ancient and disused codices, prayers which are no longer used by the Eastern church but which were a part of its liturgical life 1200 years ago.
Interesting, sure, but novel sounds like the right word.

I believe this is another instance where I think you've got a rosier view of liturgical tourism than I have. I also think you fundamentally misunderstand the Ancient-Future mindset.

I had a brief season in a sort of emerging SBC congregation (a brief, passing thing that had to do more with their pastoral flexibility at that time in my life rather than an attraction to their worship). My own experience says that interest in ancient forms is more in novelty than strict adherence to that which was passed down. If in their mind it helps, they'll hold onto it, but if it doesn't, there's no need to cleave to Tradition.

For example: I've seen numerous performances of Phos Hilaron by praise bands.  The age of the song gives it venerability, but they're not particularly interested in traditional renderings of it. And while incense -- for example -- may be used, nothing is censed.

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Now, this last bit may be controversial, but we've seen videos of Episcopalians and others attempting to celibrate our liturgy.  I think we should offer to help, using the fact that they want to use our prayers as an inroad to making contact; if the people in Episcopal or other churches start routinely using our liturgy, they will be more disposed to join our church, and their congregation or denomination will in a strict sense be engaging in more correct worship, albeit in a situation of ecclesiological and canonical irregularity.

I think we should celibrate the fact that Byzantine icons are popping up in places like Westminster Abbey.  This is to our advantage.  The mainline churches and some evangelicals are becoming disposed to worship like we do.  We are getting into their hearts.  The situation is the exact opposite of that faced by the Oxford Movement of Anglo Catholics in the 1830s, when most Englishmen regarded rhe idea of the Mass as anathema; within 100 years, the Church of England had attempted to introduce a BCP reformed along Catholic lined, had large numbers of Anglo Catholic parishes, and even had parishes like St. Magnus the Martyr where the Roman mass was being said in Latin.  Today, one can say that throughout most of the Anglican Communion, Anglo Catholicism has won, and what today is considered low church Anglicanism would have been considered high church a century ago, with the exception of a few evangelical parishes which have gone the praise and worship route, like Holy Trinity Brampton.  High churchmanship is normative.
Anglo-Catholic liturgy has won.

The conservative Anglicans are still very much Protestants.

If they're going anywhere, the odds are 9:1 they're headed to Rome.

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Also, huge numbers of English converted to Roman Catholicism, crossing the Tiber from Anglo Catholicism, a process which continues even today.
While I think you and I both have fairly soft views of the Roman schism, let's not pretend that it's equivalent, at least culturally, to convert to Rome versus the Russian exarchate attached to Constantinople or the Antiochian archdiocese.

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We face an infinitely better strategic situation in that people are actively copying and using our services and are trying to incorporate Eastern Christian "spirituality" into their parishes.  Some are praying the Jesus Prayer!  Look at the Anglican Rosary for an example.  They are using our icons and praying our prayers.

As i see it, we have two options: we can resent them for counterfeiting us and bogarting our style, or we can interpret this as an opportunity for evangelism, and seize rhe day in a positive way.  Surely the latter option is preferrable.
The latter is preferable, and if the examples you cited are conversation starters, great. I just don't think they're the great foot in the door that you do.

Just FTR, I don't mean to sound like I'm pooh-poohing missionary work.
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #112 on: December 12, 2017, 10:59:07 AM »
We recognize some things in Orthodoxy as good and pious but there are some places we will never be willing to go.

Phos Hilaron through a praise band sounds dreadful but I guess it depends on the tune used and whether or not the lyrics are metrical.  I'm not a fan of praise bands in general, I'd rather have folk mass type worship if we went for something nontraditional.  But above all I just want it to not be a noisy mess.

In our church we sometimes use a Kyrie based off the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom's litany.  It never sounds quite right to me.  I wish we'ld avoid using it, in favor of other settings.  The mixing of words that are meant to have a penitential tone with a more modern type tempo and phrasing, even played on an organ, just is grating, it's like dousing the divine liturgy in saccharine.
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #113 on: December 12, 2017, 11:29:06 AM »
Quote
For example: I've seen numerous performances of Phos Hilaron by praise bands.  The age of the song gives it venerability, but they're not particularly interested in traditional renderings of it. And while incense -- for example -- may be used, nothing is censed.


I just saw a praise band version of phos hilaron on youtube, in one of those lyric video kind of stuff, I didn't like it, but I have never seen really old christian hymns being sung in modern versions here in Brazil, that trend didn't arrive here for now.

The only thing I remember seeing (but I never heard it live) in a old protestant hymnal was a picardy version of ''let all mortal flesh keep silence'', that was a very very old eucharistic hymn, but without the verses that have some idea of real presence.

Offline pasadi97

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #114 on: January 09, 2018, 09:28:13 AM »
We recognize some things in Orthodoxy as good and pious but there are some places we will never be willing to go.


Translation. Orthodoxy is the perfect religion brought be perfect God. Tricked by the devil we recognize some things in Orthodoxy as good and pious but there are some places we will never be willing to go and that can bring to us our own destruction and much pain.

We reject true teachings and go after false prophets to our own destruction.
 Even if God made very c lear the gates of the Hell will never overcome the church we go after false prophets that contradict God saying Church of God has failed.
Even if Bible made clear in John 6:53 and John 6:54 that there is no lif without Holy Communion we g after false denominations that give us nothing and we remain dead. When the second death will come our false prophets wil run screaming and trying to hide and we will go after them screaming and in shock because we were fooled.
Even if Bible makes it clear that whaty you do comes back to you we don't realise that the lies we are spreading are coming back to hunt us and our next generations that may want truly to follow the truth.
W e dont relise tha t by taking people from Orthodox Church where they have life and ETERNAL LIFE to a church that does not have t we kill their next generations spreading death and death will come back to us and o our next generations to haunt us because Bible says wha you do comes back to you.
 We are unable to understand that Orthodox Church gives life and eternal life and that by bringing people to Eastern Orthodox Church we practically give life and eternal life so as Bble say life and eternal life comes back to us and to the next generations and that when the death will hunt us or our close people we can go saying we brought so many life in this life thus life will come back and we will be able to get extensions for us and for our close people on the account of life coming back.
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #115 on: January 09, 2018, 09:31:59 AM »
Bible say be smart/.
SO be smart and bring truth and eternal life and blessings and truth and eternal life and blessings will come back.
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #116 on: January 09, 2018, 09:53:46 AM »
Don't spread death thinking you protect predecessors you love. What happens you spread dead and death comes back and you cvan not help predecesors.
By spreading life and eternal life, life and eternal life comes back and you can direct this at predecesors actively helping them.
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #117 on: January 09, 2018, 10:08:14 AM »
There is a oncen in lifetime opportunity to give life and eternal life to millions and billions of people so millions and billions of lifes and eternal lifes come back to you andf your succesors. Dont lose it and cash on it.
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Offline biro

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #118 on: January 09, 2018, 10:35:42 AM »
There is a oncen in lifetime opportunity to give life and eternal life to millions and billions of people so millions and billions of lifes and eternal lifes come back to you andf your succesors. Dont lose it and cash on it.

What?
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Offline Rambam

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #119 on: January 09, 2018, 11:02:56 AM »
Don't you know you're wasting the bandwidth Biro paid for?  Seriously, Pasadi.

There is a oncen in lifetime opportunity to give life and eternal life to millions and billions of people so millions and billions of lifes and eternal lifes come back to you andf your succesors. Dont lose it and cash on it.

What?

Offline pasadi97

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #120 on: January 09, 2018, 07:27:13 PM »
cash on it like take advantage of it.
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Offline augustin717

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Offline pasadi97

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #122 on: January 11, 2018, 09:14:46 AM »
This is so that people know there is life after death:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-XX0u4mnUg

In the life after death people become immortal if they partake blood and flesh of God according with Bible John 6:53-54 given by Eastern Orthodox Church the perfect Church established by perfect God that Bible says the gates of the Hell will not overcome it. So in afterlife people are immortal if they partake Holy Communion from Eastern Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 09:15:44 AM by pasadi97 »
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #123 on: January 11, 2018, 09:35:45 AM »
What follows is my opinion.
From a protestant website:
"Communion is practiced as a memorial, in remembrance of Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Bread and wine, or grape juice, are unchanged elements, symbols of Jesus' body and blood. " So in my opinion in this Church communion is not practiced for immortality it is practices as a memorial or this is what I understand.  See they dont have blood and flesh of Jesus like in Eastern Orthodox they have SYMBOL of flesh and SYMBOL of blood . We know from Bible that if you take blood and flesh you become immortal we don't know what happens if you partake symbols, possibly will let the soul WITHOUT LIFE without immortal life.

In the steps received by God to obtain blood and flesh of Jesus for immortality theer is a prayer that asks God to transform bread and wine into his body and flesh. Protestants and maybe catholics in my opinion skip this prayer possibly ending up wih bread and wine not flesh and blood.

SO if you want to be sure and follow he exact steps prescribed by God to obtain immortality Eastern Orthodox Church is the Church to go. If you want to take chances go where you want.

The exact instructions from God written by Evangelist MArk one of the 12 apostles in obtaining blood and flesh of God for immortality:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0718.htm

You see the name is Holy Liturgy that doesnt exists in my opinion in many protestant churches.
Holy Liturgy is celebrated every Sunday in an Eastern Orthodox Church
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 09:48:40 AM by pasadi97 »
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #124 on: January 11, 2018, 09:51:28 AM »
This is only a warning an opinion. Do your homework and find the truth.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 09:52:34 AM by pasadi97 »
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #125 on: January 12, 2018, 09:45:30 AM »
The history of the World:
God created humans immortal and put them in Heaven so God and humans will live forever in peace and harmony. FOR EVER. God gave humans one command, DO not eat from the fruit of death.Well humans were tricked and ate from fruit of death and two things happened:
1.Death entered human body and people become mortals
2.Sin entered human body being propagated through father seed and with sin in body people were expelled from Heaven
3.With sin in human body after death with 2 places to go Hell and Heaven and not being admitted to Heaven people souls went to Hell
God promised to Adam and Eve in the book of Adam and Eve http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/fbe/fbe008.htm that in year 5500 from Creation God will send the Word of God that is Jesus in both Christianity and Islam to save people that is to make them immortal again and to allow them back to Heaven to stay and live with GOD FOR EVER. "2 Yea, the Word that will again save thee when the five days and a half are fulfilled."" Remember Word of God that will make people immortal and allow them to heaven is Jesus, not Budha, not Muhammad, not Luther , not John Smith, not Ellen White or other people that started religions and denominations. Jesus or Word of God will save humanity God said.
Time went by until Abraham was proven righteous and God promised him children like the number of stars. Then Moses come and God gave him a convenant and people entering this convenant become people fo God.
Now God has his own people and could come to Earth to bring immortality and entrance to Heaven. When of God came he told people there is one God with three persons. Think about like this, you have 2 arms that are conscious like a person and you can send them to buy things and one arm to walk children to school while being one. This is not an invention of Christians this is what Word of God told us and this appears in the old testament . Spirit of God one person appears in Genesis 1:2. Word of God or Jesus appears when God promises to Abraham children like the number of stars . Read Old testament that part and see that promise is made by the WOrd that is Jesus and Abraham rightfully calls him Lord or God. Then is God the Father. Shema calls the name of God once for every person and tells that God is one which is what Christians believe.We did not dream this at night we were told about God from above and we believed what we were told. So people of God is an important step toward salvation but is not the last step in salvation. People of God are not immortal and can not go to Heaven as salvation and year 5500 did not come yet as God promised.
If Moses would have brought eternal life and entrance to heaven that is salvation then God in book of Adam and Eve would have been wrong because year was before 5500 and Moses is not the Word of God or God. But God is not wrong.
Year 5500 came and Jesus or Word of God or GOD was born. He existed eternally before Universe was created but he just took the flesh and become fully human and fully God. Some people say God cannot be human because God is infinite and humans are finite. Well humans are souls and body and while body is finite soul can be infinite thus God. God with an infinite soul can animate a human body giving him life so he can communicate well with people.
Jesus did not abolish the old law he fulfilled it.As a result of this God was pleased and gave us a new convenant a new Law that brought us salvation. Salvation that means people will be able again to go to Heaven and be immortal and stay with God forever.
How was salvation accomplished in years 5500 by Word of God or Messiah as was promised by God in book of Adam and Eve?
God came and perfect God made the perfect religion and perfect Church Eastern Orthodox Christianity that now comprises the Churches of Greece, Russia, Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria and other countries. Remember PERFECT CHURCH made by PERFECT GOD is Eastern Orthodox Christianity. It is not catholic Church, It is not Protestant Church that started 1500 years later than when God promised to bring salvation.It is EASTERN ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY.

So again the 2 problems were this:
Sin entered human body and people were not able to enter Heaven.
Death entered humans and people were mortals.
To allow people to enter Heaven PERFECT GOD put in his PERFECT CHURCH baptism. THorugh baptism people die as children of Adam and Eve as humans and lose the body with sin in it and are born again as sons of God from Jesus and get new bodies without sin because Jesus or Word of God or God is without sin. Being born again from God christians are CHILDREN of God and call God father as in our FATHER prayer. The other people beside christians call God Master.
Here is a miracle testifying what I am saying:
http://spiritual-lessons.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-holy-sacrament-of-baptism.html
And GOD said in the New Testament that he gave to people:
John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again
So you say did God just said that without BAPTISM you can not enter Heaven and are going to Hell.
What about islam, budhism, hinduism, people of God and so on?
Lets see:
1.Eastern orthodox Christian baptized and going to Heaven
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-XX0u4mnUg
2.Islam
This is what Muhammad says now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcgkd_7KPd0&t=43s
He basically says in the movie that the angel that gave islam was a devil . Without baptism even Muhammad can not escape the words of God and thus he was seen in Hell as many muslims. Remember the words of God No baptism no Heaven. And as only Heaven and Hell exists it means Hell for muslims and Muhammad that are not baptised. More than than that many muslims in this life call on God to come to them to help them and to tell them the truth. When muslims were calling on GOD to come they report Jesus came to them saying I am the God of Christians leave islam and become Christian. Look on youtube for "muslims Jesus"
3.People of God
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol
"She'ol (/ˈʃiːoʊl/ SHEE-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ SHEE-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל‬ Šʾôl), in the Hebrew Bible, is a place of darkness to which all the dead go, both the righteous and the unrighteous, regardless of the moral choices made in life, a place of stillness and darkness cut off from life and from God.[1]"
"All the dead go" means all the dead people of God not christians that are saved the ONLY ones that Go to HEAVEN."both the righteous and the unrighteous, regardless of the moral choices made in life" it means we dont have baptism therefore anything we do in this life ANYTHING, we can be blameless have a perfect family, giv e all our riches to God, it does not matter we go to Sheol thatr is another name for Hell or Hades. THe book of the people of God say that whenChristianity was started God left them. We know from Christian books that God went to Christianity. He name his perfect Church Universal that means anyone and everybody is welcome. God is in Eastern orthodox Church calling everyone and everybody to come here where he can be saved and stay with God FOREVER. God loves people therefore he will no go back to people of God FOREVER or to islam or other religion to call people to go there to death and Hell. Why would God call people now to be people of God when he likes people and people can become CHILDREN OF GOD that i in FAMILY of GOd that is allowed to stay with GOD FOREVER IN HEAVEN. Because GOD loves people of course GOD calls on people to become CHILDREN OF GOD or Christians.  God is in  Eastern orthodox Christianity and calls people to go there.
3. BUdhism
When I was young I was amazed at the wisdom of Budhist and read many books and liked karate. LAter I foundout that wisdom of Budhism is wisdom of man an is inferior to wisom of God that isin Christianity.  Anyhow Budhism does notr offer baptism and is a wrong path. Not being baptised even Budha could not escape the words of God and is in Hell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSM8I-05Bm4
4.HInduism
HInduism has some good books bgut does not offers baptism thus leading hindus in Hell. https://www.near-death.com/religion/hinduism.html

How did God solve the problem of Death of Humans.
 PERFECT GOD put in his PERFECT Church EASTERN ORTHODOX CHURCH his blood and his flesh through Holy Communion . Here i what God have said in Bible:
John 6:53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. John 6:54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
Here is miracle that shows thaT in PERFECT CHURCH of PERFECT GOD Holy Communion id the blood and flesh of God:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbcL4mkNfzM&t=101s
To understand that this is a miracle from God think how much flesh and blood resist outside fridge with no conservants. Blood and flesh of God resists in this miracle for hundreds of years UNDECOMPOSED.
Flesh and blood of God is not under the laws of this world.
God gave us exact instructions  of obtaining flesh and blood of God through his apostles :
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0718.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0717.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX23jIhacC0&t=3s

Perfect God build perfect Church eastern orthodox Church and did more than that. He said the gates of Hell will not overcome it That is this Church the PERFECT CHURCH made b PERFECT GOD< Eastern Orthodox Christianity will be forever.
Do you hear Luther and other people that started denominations. I don't believe you are from God because you said Church of God has failed when Bible says Gates of Hell will not overcome the Church.

God gave  his perfect Church eastern orthodox Church exact instructions on how to obtain immortality.
Ask Protestant Churches where they have their instructions from. From wise man like Muhammad and Budha that now are in Hell? From imagination?

Eternal life and immortality is an issue to important to forsake instructions from God and to go with instructions from wise man or from imagination.

Because religion deals with things so important with billions after billions after billions and FOR EVER of years it is very risky to be anywhere outside the PERFECT CHURCH made by perfect God Eastern orthodox Church.

Every time God is asked which religion and denomination is best he responds EASTERN ORTHODOX CHURCH.

You take great risks going to Church that God does not redeem as best. Why?

When Catholics and Eastern orthodox asked God which Church is best God responded EasterN Orthodox Church. Read the book "Letopisetul tarii Moldovei " for this or google for "Mihai Viteazul apa sfintita".

Don't take any risk with religion s things are so important. Go to Eastrn orthodox Church the Church the PERFECT CHURCH MADE BY PERFECT GOD.

Yes you will see imperfections there not because Church is imperfect but because people is imperfect.
 
So, look that God was right in book of Adam and Eve bringing salvation to people in year 5500 of Creation as he promised.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #126 on: January 12, 2018, 11:23:08 AM »
The Conflict of Adam and Eve with Satan that you link to is a late fourth century (at the earliest) Syriac work that's never been in the canon of any Orthodox Church.

I don't think one can definitely say that Muhammad and Buddha wound up in Hell. It's a slim chance but they might have somehow converted to the True God on their death beds. I guess there's also the slim possibility that the historical Buddha was really a distorted memory of St. Ioasaph. I agree that Muslims and Buddhists must always convert to Christianity, though.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 11:25:31 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #127 on: January 12, 2018, 12:00:18 PM »
Buddha would have been among those pulled out of Hell by Christ after his descent.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #128 on: January 12, 2018, 07:43:09 PM »
Buddha would have been among those pulled out of Hell by Christ after his descent.

Well, according to Met. Alfeyev, anyway. I'm sure his position is not without pushback, right?

Doesn't that kind of imply, though, that the luckiest people in history were those who died before the Crucifixion (or at least pagans who died before the Crucifixion)? Seems like we're totally screwed by comparison.
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #129 on: January 13, 2018, 02:22:52 PM »
This thread should be titled the gift of eternal life. IT is a GIFT, ETERNAL LIFE. Better than you got from  father and mother that is around 100 years. It shows exactly what and where to do so you become immortal.  Without this thread people can be like blind acting strange like going over a chair or a table but with this thread they can go to the target to immortalitry in Eastern Orthodox Church taking Holy Communion.

This is an excellent news that people and God are reunited and should bring only joy. I can see people being upset like Ok man and God is reunited again and this is excellent but it does not happen the way I want to. Really?????????? I can see myself doing this so I am not upset.

There are not enough orthodox priests for all the world so religious teachers in each denominations should become Eastern Orthodox Priests by going to school one year to reunite people with God and of course should be payed at least 3 times more with free housing because they bring eternal life and Heaven now while before they probably brought death and Hell.

Who does not believe in what I say is free to call on God to learn from God if what I sayd is true or not as thousans of people already did and they claim that God came to them telling them the truth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMMsKicQSn8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8gb22w7ms0
And thousands of others.
If God does not come at judgment you can at least say God I called on you to tell me the truth. You can get some credit for this.

Testimony that what I say looks true are millions of testimonies: "Near death experience Heaven" on youtube where looks like ONLY CHRISTIANS say I SAW HEAVEN as God said in Bible. Ther e is no muslim, hindu, budhist testimony saying I saw Heaven or NIRVANA after death.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=near+death+heaven
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 02:33:46 PM by pasadi97 »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #130 on: January 13, 2018, 02:38:18 PM »
This thread should be titled the gift of eternal life.

You should've named it that, then. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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Offline pasadi97

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #131 on: January 13, 2018, 02:59:08 PM »
Unfortunatelly looks like Budha even if he brought wisdom did not make to heaven being seen with many budhsits if not all in Hell several years ago.

It is easy for me to pick on Budhism and Hinduism.
I tell them Look if we ASSUME that what religions say are true  then there are 3 categories of religions:
1. Christianity that through baptism make you children of God that is make people to be ABOVE mere Humans into family of God and IMMORTALS for EAstern orthodox Church.
2. Islam and people of God that let people be people mortal but at least people.
3. Budhism and Hinduism that make people in afterlife subhumans like animals like cows, worms and dogs. Both believe that the chance for humans to become humans in afterlife in HInduism and Budhism is like the chance to a ball to go through a floating ring if you put the ball at the bottom of water and floating ring at the surface of water the chance of bal;l to go through ring when it surfaces which is slim.

So I told them people from budhism and Hinduism, look people that come from death say that the God of Nirvana is the God of Christians and it looks like he does not let in Nirvana people that choosed Hinduism or Budhism and this is consistent with your teachings.

You are taught that only by doing good you are received into Nirvana. Now if you choosed for yourself and your children not to be in family of GOd and IMMORTALS that is SUPERHUMANS AND IN FAMILY OF GOD AS HIS CHILDREN but to be subhumans like cows eating grass and staying in cold or worms eating dirt and wondering about hens picking you, if you choose so much pain and suffering and BAD what good can you make so that this bad will be cover. Because hindus and budhist are not allowed to Heaven it looks like you can not make up for choosing so much bad.

So if you choose Hinduism and budhism according with their beliefs that I think are false but assuming they are true , you choose animals and subhumanity that is so much bad that you can nbot make it to nirvana that requires good.  Whomever chooses for himself or his children to be animnals and subhumans should at least try to eat grass or dirt and stay a night in cold in a manger. BORING>

Choosing Hinduism or budhism you choose subhumanity that is you remain mortal and theoretically you or your children can expire after several cycles in to nothingness and you loose them which I think will not happen but theoretically it is possible.

So a definitive no to Hinduism and budhism and to subhumans and animals ,.

It looks like evene if you choose on remaining humans or mortals  like islam is a bad choice and God of Heaven and Paradie does not let them in for making such a bad choice when entereing the family of God and immortality is available.

So ya even if it owerflow with wisdom and bringing great things like karate and self defense that I like because it brings subhumanity and animality the wisdom in Budhism and hinduism is of no use.
And of course wisdom of God in Christianity is more powerfull. And power of God in Christianity is unmatched thinking only at entering the family of God and becoming IMMORTAL that is SUPERHUMAN. There is nothing like it.

So choosing subhumanity and animality over SUPERHUMANITY that is CHOOSING Hinduism or budhism over CHRISTIANITY is choosing so much bad that people doing this are not reaching Nrvana, there is no amount of Good that can cover this.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 03:12:44 PM by pasadi97 »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #132 on: January 14, 2018, 02:05:31 AM »
The Near Death Experience of a random Buddhist monk does not overturn the fact that the Orthodox Church does not dogmatize on the fate of anybody lightly. Nobody knows what happens to anybody in those moments before death (see: the Righteous Thief on the Cross, who was not baptized, yet was clearly saved). Ditto for your Muhammad NDE which seems to be related by... Fundy Protestants?

This, of course, is not an excuse for anybody living to NOT get baptism if they can.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline pasadi97

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #133 on: Today at 01:06:52 AM »
If you remember after Jesus departure from this world he wen to Hell took the righteous dead that started to exit the graves and went to Jordan to be baptized by Jesus so they can enter Heaven. King David and prophets were through this and I believe that this happened to the thief on the cross.. I think Gospel of Nicodemus has the details. THen they were assumed to heaven.

In Gospel of Nicodemus it is clear that King David and Prophets were in Hell with the devils when Jesus descended to recover people. They were there for hundreds of years. If Old Law could not save King David, how is going to save people today?

In book of Adam and Eve God makes clear that salvation comes in year 5500 by Word of God that is Jesus and had power to give life. MOses came before year 5500 with hundreds of years and never claimed to be Word of God or Jesus so clear that Old Law does not bring salvation or entrance to Heaven and what is left is Hell and devils.

The only person claiming to be Word of God was Jesus and he came in year 5500 and he had power over death and 1 billion Christians claim he brought salvation . Too much to be simple coincidence. And more millions of Christians coming from death say they saw Heaven that is a part of salvation and that JESUS is in control in after life.
« Last Edit: Today at 01:16:40 AM by pasadi97 »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death
« Reply #134 on: Today at 11:37:53 AM »
Buddha would have been among those pulled out of Hell by Christ after his descent.

Well, according to Met. Alfeyev, anyway. I'm sure his position is not without pushback, right?

As far as I can tell, Met Hilarion was just citing the (not universal, but common enough) opinion of a range of fathers. Of course if anyone has critiqued his presentation, I'd be curious to see it. It seems the only place where the idea really took hold that only the OT righteous were saved was in the Latin West. And, as we know, nothing remotely nice or good comes from that terrible place.

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Doesn't that kind of imply, though, that the luckiest people in history were those who died before the Crucifixion (or at least pagans who died before the Crucifixion)? Seems like we're totally screwed by comparison.

As a hopeful universalist, I guess I don't let this bother me.
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