Author Topic: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis  (Read 4814 times)

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Offline ICXCNIKA

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EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« on: July 13, 2017, 06:56:40 PM »
I didn't see a thread for this. These 2 articles were on byztex and I am interested in what people think.

http://byztex.blogspot.com/2017/07/ep-rejects-list-of-candidates-to-head.html

http://byztex.blogspot.com/2017/07/more-on-eps-rejection-of-candidate-list.html

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2017, 07:05:00 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 07:05:50 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2017, 07:06:09 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals.

What is the next step? Does the GOAA submit another list of 3 different people?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 07:07:05 PM by ICXCNIKA »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2017, 07:09:10 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals.

What is the next step? Does the GOAA submit another list of 3 different people?

Something like that. It's not important. There will be a hierarch in Chicago.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2017, 07:53:48 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals.

What is the next step? Does the GOAA submit another list of 3 different people?

Something like that. It's not important. There will be a hierarch in Chicago.
There already is a hierarch in Chicago.

And yes, it is VERY important.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2017, 08:19:45 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals.

What is the next step? Does the GOAA submit another list of 3 different people?

Something like that. It's not important. There will be a hierarch in Chicago.
There already is a hierarch in Chicago.

And yes, it is VERY important.

Really? The precise details by which hierarchs go about their business is "VERY important" to you? I can't imagine the hubris it would take for me to feel that way, as a layman.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline scamandrius

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2017, 08:59:53 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.

1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 

2.  But, in the entire history where the Synod was tasked with naming a successor, this move of rejecting all three names is unprecedented which is not to say that the EP doesn't have that right (it does), but a move like this has many speculating as to why this is happening now especially for such an important Metropolis like Chicago.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 09:01:00 PM by scamandrius »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2017, 09:03:49 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.

1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 

My Metropolitan had asked for further consideration.

Quote
2.  But, in the entire history where the Synod was tasked with naming a successor, this move of rejecting all three names is unprecedented which is not to say that the EP doesn't have that right (it does), but a move like this has many speculating as to why this is happening now especially for such an important Metropolis like Chicago.

I doubt it's unprecedented.

If he had rejected one or two particular candidates, then he would be doing more than just resetting the procedure. He'd be picking, and that's not what this is about in spite of the cynical critics always looking for scandal and schism, which is against the Gospel.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2017, 09:27:20 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.

1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 

My Metropolitan had asked for further consideration.

Your Metropolitan wanted one particular candidate and, so it would seem, only that one.  Otherwise, everyone seemed on board with Bp Sevastianos.   

Quote
Quote
2.  But, in the entire history where the Synod was tasked with naming a successor, this move of rejecting all three names is unprecedented which is not to say that the EP doesn't have that right (it does), but a move like this has many speculating as to why this is happening now especially for such an important Metropolis like Chicago.

I doubt it's unprecedented.

If he had rejected one or two particular candidates, then he would be doing more than just resetting the procedure. He'd be picking, and that's not what this is about in spite of the cynical critics always looking for scandal and schism, which is against the Gospel.

According to this report, the Patriarchate approved the list from which they chose the three finalists in March.  The reason for "rebooting the process" (to use your expression) at this time was because the list was not comprehensive enough. 

Something doesn't smell right.   
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2017, 09:40:00 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.

1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 

My Metropolitan had asked for further consideration.

Your Metropolitan wanted one particular candidate and, so it would seem, only that one.  Otherwise, everyone seemed on board with Bp Sevastianos.   

Quote
Quote
2.  But, in the entire history where the Synod was tasked with naming a successor, this move of rejecting all three names is unprecedented which is not to say that the EP doesn't have that right (it does), but a move like this has many speculating as to why this is happening now especially for such an important Metropolis like Chicago.

I doubt it's unprecedented.

If he had rejected one or two particular candidates, then he would be doing more than just resetting the procedure. He'd be picking, and that's not what this is about in spite of the cynical critics always looking for scandal and schism, which is against the Gospel.

According to this report, the Patriarchate approved the list from which they chose the three finalists in March.  The reason for "rebooting the process" (to use your expression) at this time was because the list was not comprehensive enough. 

Something doesn't smell right.   

The first author seems to hope this is a break between the Archdiocese and the Patriarch. You seem to think this is a portion of the Archdiocese pulling the Patriarch's strings. If something's bad but nobody can agree on the bad guy, then maybe it isn't so bad. But why are some of you bent on making this anything bad, in the first place -- why can't it just be a process of brethren finding harmony? If we "smell" around cynically for scandal isn't healthy for us or the bishops. I really don't understand. I'm really disappointed.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2017, 09:45:03 PM »
Ok, so if the GOAA resubmits another 3 names that don't include those the Phanar really wants haw long will this go on? Can the EP bypass the local synod (not sure if that is the right term) and elect whoever they want? Or do they need to elect a name from a submitted list?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 09:48:31 PM by ICXCNIKA »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2017, 10:00:04 PM »
Ok, so if the GOAA resubmits another 3 names that don't include those the Phanar really wants haw long will this go on?

Pure speculation on your part. No repetition of the sort has happened or has been signalled. You're stirring mud.

Quote
Can the EP bypass the local synod (not sure if that is the right term) and elect whoever they want?

How would that be an "election."

Quote
Or do they need to elect a name from a submitted list?

The Patriarch doesn't do the electing at all. Fascinating how ill-informed you are of the process, yet quick to besmear your spiritual superiors.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2017, 10:03:04 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.

1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 

My Metropolitan had asked for further consideration.

Your Metropolitan wanted one particular candidate and, so it would seem, only that one.  Otherwise, everyone seemed on board with Bp Sevastianos.   

Quote
Quote
2.  But, in the entire history where the Synod was tasked with naming a successor, this move of rejecting all three names is unprecedented which is not to say that the EP doesn't have that right (it does), but a move like this has many speculating as to why this is happening now especially for such an important Metropolis like Chicago.

I doubt it's unprecedented.

If he had rejected one or two particular candidates, then he would be doing more than just resetting the procedure. He'd be picking, and that's not what this is about in spite of the cynical critics always looking for scandal and schism, which is against the Gospel.

According to this report, the Patriarchate approved the list from which they chose the three finalists in March.  The reason for "rebooting the process" (to use your expression) at this time was because the list was not comprehensive enough. 

Something doesn't smell right.   

The first author seems to hope this is a break between the Archdiocese and the Patriarch. You seem to think this is a portion of the Archdiocese pulling the Patriarch's strings. If something's bad but nobody can agree on the bad guy, then maybe it isn't so bad. But why are some of you bent on making this anything bad, in the first place -- why can't it just be a process of brethren finding harmony? If we "smell" around cynically for scandal isn't healthy for us or the bishops. I really don't understand. I'm really disappointed.

I wish the Church operated in the ideal fashion you seem desperately to want it to operate, but unfortunately it's not always so.  "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us" can get messy because of that pesky "us".  Ultimately we trust the system, but accepting that reality need not be cynicism or scandalmongering.  It can also be being "wise as serpents".  And sometimes "us" have a point.  "Us" have saved the Church from time to time when bishops were trying to kill her. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2017, 10:08:05 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.

1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 

My Metropolitan had asked for further consideration.

Your Metropolitan wanted one particular candidate and, so it would seem, only that one.  Otherwise, everyone seemed on board with Bp Sevastianos.   

Quote
Quote
2.  But, in the entire history where the Synod was tasked with naming a successor, this move of rejecting all three names is unprecedented which is not to say that the EP doesn't have that right (it does), but a move like this has many speculating as to why this is happening now especially for such an important Metropolis like Chicago.

I doubt it's unprecedented.

If he had rejected one or two particular candidates, then he would be doing more than just resetting the procedure. He'd be picking, and that's not what this is about in spite of the cynical critics always looking for scandal and schism, which is against the Gospel.

According to this report, the Patriarchate approved the list from which they chose the three finalists in March.  The reason for "rebooting the process" (to use your expression) at this time was because the list was not comprehensive enough. 

Something doesn't smell right.   

The first author seems to hope this is a break between the Archdiocese and the Patriarch. You seem to think this is a portion of the Archdiocese pulling the Patriarch's strings. If something's bad but nobody can agree on the bad guy, then maybe it isn't so bad. But why are some of you bent on making this anything bad, in the first place -- why can't it just be a process of brethren finding harmony? If we "smell" around cynically for scandal isn't healthy for us or the bishops. I really don't understand. I'm really disappointed.

I wish the Church operated in the ideal fashion you seem desperately to want it to operate, but unfortunately it's not always so.  "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us" can get messy because of that pesky "us".  Ultimately we trust the system, but accepting that reality need not be cynicism or scandalmongering.  It can also be being "wise as serpents".  And sometimes "us" have a point.  "Us" have saved the Church from time to time when bishops were trying to kill her.

I'm sorry, but assuming the best of others and of our hierarchs isn't some dereliction of lay duty. If there is some actual pious need for confrontation, it will certainly be pressed upon us in a way we don't have to sniff out. Unless you are aware of a very obvious evil here, or, I suppose, of a long-standing pattern of a very obvious evil, then the excuse "We have to be on our toes" is just meddling. I understand there's a small tradition of gossip and politicking among Orthodox as among any other group, but I can't approve of it. Our energies should be toward harmony and mutual respect. There is no way the OCA is going to achieve the objectives her fans have for her unless there is such harmony and mutual respect already in play.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2017, 10:12:37 PM »
Ok, so if the GOAA resubmits another 3 names that don't include those the Phanar really wants haw long will this go on?

Pure speculation on your part. No repetition of the sort has happened or has been signalled. You're stirring mud.

Quote
Can the EP bypass the local synod (not sure if that is the right term) and elect whoever they want?

How would that be an "election."

Quote
Or do they need to elect a name from a submitted list?

The Patriarch doesn't do the electing at all. Fascinating how ill-informed you are of the process, yet quick to besmear your spiritual superiors.

1) yeah, it is pure speculation on my part since I looking for knowledgeable people to explain the process. Since you are not knowledgeable feel free to stay quite and swallow your hubris.

2) It would be an election of the Synod of Istanbul headed by your Patriarch. Or when they vote for a bishop does it cease to be an election?

3) you semi correct in that I am uninformed about the process hence why I started this thread.

4a) They are not my spiritual superiors. (b) Asking a question is not besmirching
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 10:17:28 PM by ICXCNIKA »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2017, 10:18:58 PM »
Ok, so if the GOAA resubmits another 3 names that don't include those the Phanar really wants haw long will this go on?

Pure speculation on your part. No repetition of the sort has happened or has been signalled. You're stirring mud.

Quote
Can the EP bypass the local synod (not sure if that is the right term) and elect whoever they want?

How would that be an "election."

Quote
Or do they need to elect a name from a submitted list?

The Patriarch doesn't do the electing at all. Fascinating how ill-informed you are of the process, yet quick to besmear your spiritual superiors.

1) yeah, it is pure speculation on my part since I looking for knowledgeable people to explain the process. Since you are not knowledgeable feel free to stay quite and choke on your hubris.

Good Christian sentiments!

Quote
2) It would be an election of the Synod of Istanbul headed by your Patriarch. Or when they vote for a bishop does it cease to be an election?

I have the imagination to see how such a thing could happen, but do you have any evidence at all that it would?

Quote
3) you semi correct in that I am uninformed about the process hence why I started this thread.

4a) They are not my spiritual superiors.

Then what's your jurisdiction and why are you compelled to question them?

Quote
(b) Asking a question is not besmirching unless you have something to hide from the light of day.

It depends on the questions, doesn't it? And I didn't read a lot of questions, certainly not ingenuous ones, in your articles.

Quote
(c)  And I have stepped in things that would qualify as your spiritual superior.

At least you're now being open with your hatred and contempt for the Orthodox episcopate.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2017, 10:27:03 PM »
Ok, so if the GOAA resubmits another 3 names that don't include those the Phanar really wants haw long will this go on?

Pure speculation on your part. No repetition of the sort has happened or has been signalled. You're stirring mud.

Quote
Can the EP bypass the local synod (not sure if that is the right term) and elect whoever they want?

How would that be an "election."

Quote
Or do they need to elect a name from a submitted list?

The Patriarch doesn't do the electing at all. Fascinating how ill-informed you are of the process, yet quick to besmear your spiritual superiors.

1) yeah, it is pure speculation on my part since I looking for knowledgeable people to explain the process. Since you are not knowledgeable feel free to stay quite and choke on your hubris.

Good Christian sentiments!

Quote
2) It would be an election of the Synod of Istanbul headed by your Patriarch. Or when they vote for a bishop does it cease to be an election?

I have the imagination to see how such a thing could happen, but do you have any evidence at all that it would?

Quote
3) you semi correct in that I am uninformed about the process hence why I started this thread.

4a) They are not my spiritual superiors.

Then what's your jurisdiction and why are you compelled to question them?

Quote
(b) Asking a question is not besmirching unless you have something to hide from the light of day.

It depends on the questions, doesn't it? And I didn't read a lot of questions, certainly not ingenuous ones, in your articles.

Quote
(c)  And I have stepped in things that would qualify as your spiritual superior.

At least you're now being open with your hatred and contempt for the Orthodox episcopate.

My passions got the better of me for the moment. I have revised my statements and apologize. However, you have been trying to derail this thread from the beginning. You have nothing to contribute so go in peace. my contempt is for your holier than thou snarkiness. I am not sure your episcopate is Orthodox.  But that is a discussion for another time.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2017, 10:28:20 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.

1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 

My Metropolitan had asked for further consideration.

Your Metropolitan wanted one particular candidate and, so it would seem, only that one.  Otherwise, everyone seemed on board with Bp Sevastianos.   

Quote
Quote
2.  But, in the entire history where the Synod was tasked with naming a successor, this move of rejecting all three names is unprecedented which is not to say that the EP doesn't have that right (it does), but a move like this has many speculating as to why this is happening now especially for such an important Metropolis like Chicago.

I doubt it's unprecedented.

If he had rejected one or two particular candidates, then he would be doing more than just resetting the procedure. He'd be picking, and that's not what this is about in spite of the cynical critics always looking for scandal and schism, which is against the Gospel.

According to this report, the Patriarchate approved the list from which they chose the three finalists in March.  The reason for "rebooting the process" (to use your expression) at this time was because the list was not comprehensive enough. 

Something doesn't smell right.   

The first author seems to hope this is a break between the Archdiocese and the Patriarch. You seem to think this is a portion of the Archdiocese pulling the Patriarch's strings. If something's bad but nobody can agree on the bad guy, then maybe it isn't so bad. But why are some of you bent on making this anything bad, in the first place -- why can't it just be a process of brethren finding harmony? If we "smell" around cynically for scandal isn't healthy for us or the bishops. I really don't understand. I'm really disappointed.

I wish the Church operated in the ideal fashion you seem desperately to want it to operate, but unfortunately it's not always so.  "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us" can get messy because of that pesky "us".  Ultimately we trust the system, but accepting that reality need not be cynicism or scandalmongering.  It can also be being "wise as serpents".  And sometimes "us" have a point.  "Us" have saved the Church from time to time when bishops were trying to kill her.

I'm sorry, but assuming the best of others and of our hierarchs isn't some dereliction of lay duty. If there is some actual pious need for confrontation, it will certainly be pressed upon us in a way we don't have to sniff out. Unless you are aware of a very obvious evil here, or, I suppose, of a long-standing pattern of a very obvious evil, then the excuse "We have to be on our toes" is just meddling. I understand there's a small tradition of gossip and politicking among Orthodox as among any other group, but I can't approve of it. Our energies should be toward harmony and mutual respect. There is no way the OCA is going to achieve the objectives her fans have for her unless there is such harmony and mutual respect already in play.

I never held up the OCA as a model to follow in this thread.  When you throw non-jurisdiction-of-Porter jurisdictions under the bus so easily while condemning questioning of jurisdiction-of-Porter issues as some sort of impious devilry, it becomes too much to take seriously.

You are right to say that "assuming the best of others...isn't some dereliction of duty".  The rest of your post is just based on lack of experience. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2017, 10:30:16 PM »
My passions got the better of me for the moment. I have revised my statements and apologize. However, you have been trying to derail this thread from the beginning. You have nothing to contribute so go in peace. my contempt is for your holier than thou snarkiness. I am not sure your episcopate is Orthodox.  But that is a discussion for another time.

So you expect to molest a canonical archdiocese without any protestation at all? I'm glad I could end that dream. And if you in fact have no ties to us and doubt our canonicity, then it would make sense if you were the one to butt out.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 10:30:39 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2017, 10:30:40 PM »
1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 
The 2nd story http://byztex.blogspot.com/2017/07/more-on-eps-rejection-of-candidate-list.html cites an anonymous GOAA source:
Quote
He went on to say that many people throughout the country and in and around Chicago “had serious reservations about Bishop Sebastian’s stamina, capabilities and experience to handle such a prodigious and complex position like head of the Chicago Metropolis, given his limited administrative experience and his limited English language skills.”
Of course there's no guarantee that Anonymous Source Alpha is telling the truth, but it's my opinion that knowing English well might be just a tad important for a Metropolitan in the USA in 2017.
Quote from: Nun M.
The dread Pantocrator...is also "Christouli mou", (my little Christ), who really listens when you run in to your neighborhood church on the way to work to cry and light a candle because your daughter is in trouble at school. The untouchable and all-holy Mother of God is also "Panayitsa mou", who really will take your part before the court of heaven because, just like your own mom, she’ll always stick up for her children, no matter how badly they’ve behaved.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2017, 10:32:59 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.

1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 

My Metropolitan had asked for further consideration.

Your Metropolitan wanted one particular candidate and, so it would seem, only that one.  Otherwise, everyone seemed on board with Bp Sevastianos.   

Quote
Quote
2.  But, in the entire history where the Synod was tasked with naming a successor, this move of rejecting all three names is unprecedented which is not to say that the EP doesn't have that right (it does), but a move like this has many speculating as to why this is happening now especially for such an important Metropolis like Chicago.

I doubt it's unprecedented.

If he had rejected one or two particular candidates, then he would be doing more than just resetting the procedure. He'd be picking, and that's not what this is about in spite of the cynical critics always looking for scandal and schism, which is against the Gospel.

According to this report, the Patriarchate approved the list from which they chose the three finalists in March.  The reason for "rebooting the process" (to use your expression) at this time was because the list was not comprehensive enough. 

Something doesn't smell right.   

The first author seems to hope this is a break between the Archdiocese and the Patriarch. You seem to think this is a portion of the Archdiocese pulling the Patriarch's strings. If something's bad but nobody can agree on the bad guy, then maybe it isn't so bad. But why are some of you bent on making this anything bad, in the first place -- why can't it just be a process of brethren finding harmony? If we "smell" around cynically for scandal isn't healthy for us or the bishops. I really don't understand. I'm really disappointed.

I wish the Church operated in the ideal fashion you seem desperately to want it to operate, but unfortunately it's not always so.  "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us" can get messy because of that pesky "us".  Ultimately we trust the system, but accepting that reality need not be cynicism or scandalmongering.  It can also be being "wise as serpents".  And sometimes "us" have a point.  "Us" have saved the Church from time to time when bishops were trying to kill her.

I'm sorry, but assuming the best of others and of our hierarchs isn't some dereliction of lay duty. If there is some actual pious need for confrontation, it will certainly be pressed upon us in a way we don't have to sniff out. Unless you are aware of a very obvious evil here, or, I suppose, of a long-standing pattern of a very obvious evil, then the excuse "We have to be on our toes" is just meddling. I understand there's a small tradition of gossip and politicking among Orthodox as among any other group, but I can't approve of it. Our energies should be toward harmony and mutual respect. There is no way the OCA is going to achieve the objectives her fans have for her unless there is such harmony and mutual respect already in play.

I never held up the OCA as a model to follow in this thread.  When you throw non-jurisdiction-of-Porter jurisdictions under the bus so easily while condemning questioning of jurisdiction-of-Porter issues as some sort of impious devilry, it becomes too much to take seriously.

You are right to say that "assuming the best of others...isn't some dereliction of duty".  The rest of your post is just based on lack of experience.

I have no problems with the OCA. I love her hierarchs as much as my own. It's simply a trend of OC.net that the OCA's fans attack her supposed rival in all sorts of ways as tho that could strengthen their hopes for her -- it won't.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2017, 10:33:04 PM »
1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 
The 2nd story http://byztex.blogspot.com/2017/07/more-on-eps-rejection-of-candidate-list.html cites an anonymous GOAA source:
Quote
He went on to say that many people throughout the country and in and around Chicago “had serious reservations about Bishop Sebastian’s stamina, capabilities and experience to handle such a prodigious and complex position like head of the Chicago Metropolis, given his limited administrative experience and his limited English language skills.”
Of course there's no guarantee that Anonymous Source Alpha is telling the truth, but it's my opinion that knowing English well might be just a tad important for a Metropolitan in the USA in 2017.

It would be very curious if the Patriarchate had more of a sensitivity to the need for a Metropolitan of Chicago to know English than the Archdiocese of America. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2017, 10:35:06 PM »
1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 
The 2nd story http://byztex.blogspot.com/2017/07/more-on-eps-rejection-of-candidate-list.html cites an anonymous GOAA source:
Quote
He went on to say that many people throughout the country and in and around Chicago “had serious reservations about Bishop Sebastian’s stamina, capabilities and experience to handle such a prodigious and complex position like head of the Chicago Metropolis, given his limited administrative experience and his limited English language skills.”
Of course there's no guarantee that Anonymous Source Alpha is telling the truth, but it's my opinion that knowing English well might be just a tad important for a Metropolitan in the USA in 2017.

It would be very curious if the Patriarchate had more of a sensitivity to the need for a Metropolitan of Chicago to know English than the Archdiocese of America.

There's no battle between His Beatitude and His All Holiness. That's just an unpleasant assumption.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2017, 10:36:36 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.

1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 

My Metropolitan had asked for further consideration.

Your Metropolitan wanted one particular candidate and, so it would seem, only that one.  Otherwise, everyone seemed on board with Bp Sevastianos.   

Quote
Quote
2.  But, in the entire history where the Synod was tasked with naming a successor, this move of rejecting all three names is unprecedented which is not to say that the EP doesn't have that right (it does), but a move like this has many speculating as to why this is happening now especially for such an important Metropolis like Chicago.

I doubt it's unprecedented.

If he had rejected one or two particular candidates, then he would be doing more than just resetting the procedure. He'd be picking, and that's not what this is about in spite of the cynical critics always looking for scandal and schism, which is against the Gospel.

According to this report, the Patriarchate approved the list from which they chose the three finalists in March.  The reason for "rebooting the process" (to use your expression) at this time was because the list was not comprehensive enough. 

Something doesn't smell right.   

The first author seems to hope this is a break between the Archdiocese and the Patriarch. You seem to think this is a portion of the Archdiocese pulling the Patriarch's strings. If something's bad but nobody can agree on the bad guy, then maybe it isn't so bad. But why are some of you bent on making this anything bad, in the first place -- why can't it just be a process of brethren finding harmony? If we "smell" around cynically for scandal isn't healthy for us or the bishops. I really don't understand. I'm really disappointed.

I wish the Church operated in the ideal fashion you seem desperately to want it to operate, but unfortunately it's not always so.  "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us" can get messy because of that pesky "us".  Ultimately we trust the system, but accepting that reality need not be cynicism or scandalmongering.  It can also be being "wise as serpents".  And sometimes "us" have a point.  "Us" have saved the Church from time to time when bishops were trying to kill her.

I'm sorry, but assuming the best of others and of our hierarchs isn't some dereliction of lay duty. If there is some actual pious need for confrontation, it will certainly be pressed upon us in a way we don't have to sniff out. Unless you are aware of a very obvious evil here, or, I suppose, of a long-standing pattern of a very obvious evil, then the excuse "We have to be on our toes" is just meddling. I understand there's a small tradition of gossip and politicking among Orthodox as among any other group, but I can't approve of it. Our energies should be toward harmony and mutual respect. There is no way the OCA is going to achieve the objectives her fans have for her unless there is such harmony and mutual respect already in play.

I never held up the OCA as a model to follow in this thread.  When you throw non-jurisdiction-of-Porter jurisdictions under the bus so easily while condemning questioning of jurisdiction-of-Porter issues as some sort of impious devilry, it becomes too much to take seriously.

You are right to say that "assuming the best of others...isn't some dereliction of duty".  The rest of your post is just based on lack of experience.

I have no problems with the OCA. I love her hierarchs as much as my own. It's simply a trend of OC.net that the OCA's fans attack her supposed rival in all sorts of ways as tho that could strengthen their hopes for her -- it won't.

But why bring up the OCA?
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2017, 10:38:20 PM »
1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 
The 2nd story http://byztex.blogspot.com/2017/07/more-on-eps-rejection-of-candidate-list.html cites an anonymous GOAA source:
Quote
He went on to say that many people throughout the country and in and around Chicago “had serious reservations about Bishop Sebastian’s stamina, capabilities and experience to handle such a prodigious and complex position like head of the Chicago Metropolis, given his limited administrative experience and his limited English language skills.”
Of course there's no guarantee that Anonymous Source Alpha is telling the truth, but it's my opinion that knowing English well might be just a tad important for a Metropolitan in the USA in 2017.

It would be very curious if the Patriarchate had more of a sensitivity to the need for a Metropolitan of Chicago to know English than the Archdiocese of America.

There's no battle between His Beatitude and His All Holiness. That's just an unpleasant assumption.

There is no "His Beatitude" in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.  And I never suggested a battle between that imaginary figure and the EP. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2017, 10:38:50 PM »
My passions got the better of me for the moment. I have revised my statements and apologize. However, you have been trying to derail this thread from the beginning. You have nothing to contribute so go in peace. my contempt is for your holier than thou snarkiness. I am not sure your episcopate is Orthodox.  But that is a discussion for another time.

So you expect to molest a canonical archdiocese without any protestation at all? I'm glad I could end that dream. And if you in fact have no ties to us and doubt our canonicity, then it would make sense if you were the one to butt out.

1) you got issues
2) I have never molested anything or anyone. Unlike you, I am here to learn. I am not here to sling mud as you seem to think.
3) I am a member of a Canonical Church which your church is in union with. So you said your peace now please constuctively contribute to the thread or please go.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 10:39:27 PM by ICXCNIKA »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2017, 10:39:31 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.

1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 

My Metropolitan had asked for further consideration.

Your Metropolitan wanted one particular candidate and, so it would seem, only that one.  Otherwise, everyone seemed on board with Bp Sevastianos.   

Quote
Quote
2.  But, in the entire history where the Synod was tasked with naming a successor, this move of rejecting all three names is unprecedented which is not to say that the EP doesn't have that right (it does), but a move like this has many speculating as to why this is happening now especially for such an important Metropolis like Chicago.

I doubt it's unprecedented.

If he had rejected one or two particular candidates, then he would be doing more than just resetting the procedure. He'd be picking, and that's not what this is about in spite of the cynical critics always looking for scandal and schism, which is against the Gospel.

According to this report, the Patriarchate approved the list from which they chose the three finalists in March.  The reason for "rebooting the process" (to use your expression) at this time was because the list was not comprehensive enough. 

Something doesn't smell right.   

The first author seems to hope this is a break between the Archdiocese and the Patriarch. You seem to think this is a portion of the Archdiocese pulling the Patriarch's strings. If something's bad but nobody can agree on the bad guy, then maybe it isn't so bad. But why are some of you bent on making this anything bad, in the first place -- why can't it just be a process of brethren finding harmony? If we "smell" around cynically for scandal isn't healthy for us or the bishops. I really don't understand. I'm really disappointed.

I wish the Church operated in the ideal fashion you seem desperately to want it to operate, but unfortunately it's not always so.  "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us" can get messy because of that pesky "us".  Ultimately we trust the system, but accepting that reality need not be cynicism or scandalmongering.  It can also be being "wise as serpents".  And sometimes "us" have a point.  "Us" have saved the Church from time to time when bishops were trying to kill her.

I'm sorry, but assuming the best of others and of our hierarchs isn't some dereliction of lay duty. If there is some actual pious need for confrontation, it will certainly be pressed upon us in a way we don't have to sniff out. Unless you are aware of a very obvious evil here, or, I suppose, of a long-standing pattern of a very obvious evil, then the excuse "We have to be on our toes" is just meddling. I understand there's a small tradition of gossip and politicking among Orthodox as among any other group, but I can't approve of it. Our energies should be toward harmony and mutual respect. There is no way the OCA is going to achieve the objectives her fans have for her unless there is such harmony and mutual respect already in play.

I never held up the OCA as a model to follow in this thread.  When you throw non-jurisdiction-of-Porter jurisdictions under the bus so easily while condemning questioning of jurisdiction-of-Porter issues as some sort of impious devilry, it becomes too much to take seriously.

You are right to say that "assuming the best of others...isn't some dereliction of duty".  The rest of your post is just based on lack of experience.

I have no problems with the OCA. I love her hierarchs as much as my own. It's simply a trend of OC.net that the OCA's fans attack her supposed rival in all sorts of ways as tho that could strengthen their hopes for her -- it won't.

But why bring up the OCA?

I just said why. People attack my jurisdiction with the idea it strengthens their jurisdiction's claims to unify the faith here in America. And that's precisely wrong-headed. Obviously this is only one kind of motivation, but it's the prevalent one around here. I also imagine it has some bearing on your own reactions, now that I think of it, but then again, now that I think of it, that's probably not the case.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2017, 10:40:50 PM »
3) I am a member of a Canonical Church which your church is in union with. So you said your peace now please constuctively contribute to the thread or please go.

Then your statement here has even less excuse:

I am not sure your episcopate is Orthodox.  But that is a discussion for another time.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2017, 10:44:14 PM »
My passions got the better of me for the moment. I have revised my statements and apologize. However, you have been trying to derail this thread from the beginning. You have nothing to contribute so go in peace. my contempt is for your holier than thou snarkiness. I am not sure your episcopate is Orthodox.  But that is a discussion for another time.

So you expect to molest a canonical archdiocese without any protestation at all? I'm glad I could end that dream. And if you in fact have no ties to us and doubt our canonicity, then it would make sense if you were the one to butt out.

1) you got issues
2) I have never molested anything or anyone. Unlike you, I am here to learn. I am not here to sling mud as you seem to think.
3) I am a member of a Canonical Church which your church is in union with. So you said your peace now please constuctively contribute to the thread or please go.

I'm sorry you didn't get quite the anti-hierarchy party you were planning (altho never fear, I'm sure it's coming), but it would be too silly if you thought your disappointment gives you a right to decide what is posted from now on.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2017, 10:46:01 PM »
3) I am a member of a Canonical Church which your church is in union with. So you said your peace now please constuctively contribute to the thread or please go.

Then your statement here has even less excuse:

I am not sure your episcopate is Orthodox.  But that is a discussion for another time.

1) It doesn't need an excuse nor your pontifical seal of approval. 
2) I am here to understand the process. It sounds like you don't know the process so there really is nothing for you to respond to.

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2017, 10:47:42 PM »
My passions got the better of me for the moment. I have revised my statements and apologize. However, you have been trying to derail this thread from the beginning. You have nothing to contribute so go in peace. my contempt is for your holier than thou snarkiness. I am not sure your episcopate is Orthodox.  But that is a discussion for another time.

So you expect to molest a canonical archdiocese without any protestation at all? I'm glad I could end that dream. And if you in fact have no ties to us and doubt our canonicity, then it would make sense if you were the one to butt out.

1) you got issues
2) I have never molested anything or anyone. Unlike you, I am here to learn. I am not here to sling mud as you seem to think.
3) I am a member of a Canonical Church which your church is in union with. So you said your peace now please constuctively contribute to the thread or please go.

I'm sorry you didn't get quite the anti-hierarchy party you were planning (altho never fear, I'm sure it's coming), but it would be too silly if you thought your disappointment gives you a right to decide what is posted from now on.

LOL you can try to paint me as anti-hierachial if that floats your sordid little boat. You are not worth my time.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2017, 10:49:46 PM »
3) I am a member of a Canonical Church which your church is in union with. So you said your peace now please constuctively contribute to the thread or please go.

Then your statement here has even less excuse:

I am not sure your episcopate is Orthodox.  But that is a discussion for another time.

1) It doesn't need an excuse nor your pontifical seal of approval. 
2) I am here to understand the process. It sounds like you don't know the process so there really is nothing for you to respond to.

2) Your thread appeared to be here to hawk a couple of cynical articles from the Netodoxosphere.

And ( 1 ), yes, you do need to expect to be challenged as to why you're rejecting a branch of your own Church, how that could possibly be pious, if you bring it up.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2017, 10:57:36 PM »
Article 14
Election of a Metropolitan

a. In every regular meeting and in consultation with the Archdiocesan Council, the Eparchial Synod reviews and modifies, through additions and deletions, the list of those eligible for the office of Metropolitan. The Auxiliary Bishops are automatically included in this list by virtue of their office. The Eparchial Synod submits the list so completed to the Ecumenical Patriarchate for its approval. The list becomes definitive after its ratification by the Ecumenical Patriarchate and is then officially published by the Archdiocese.

b. Immediately following a vacancy in the See of a Metropolis, but no later than forty (40) days thereafter, the Archbishop convenes the Eparchial Synod in a timely fashion, for the purpose of nominating, after soliciting the opinion of the members of the Archdiocesan Council, three persons, out of whom one shall be elected to fill the vacancy of the Metropolis. The nominees are taken from the above mentioned list of those eligible, pursuant to the procedure provided for by the Regulations of the Eparchial Synod.

c. The list of three nominees thus established is submitted to the Ecumenical Patriarchate. According to the existing practice, the Holy and Sacred Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate elects one of the three as the new Metropolitan.

d. A nominee for the office of Metropolitan shall be a person of deep faith and ethos, a Greek Orthodox Christian, a graduate of an academically recognized and accredited Orthodox school of theology of the highest level, have a fluent knowledge of spoken and written English and Greek, and have a proven ability in administration and pastoral work. In addition, the nominee must have all the pertinent qualifications defined by the Holy Canons, shall not be less than thirty-five (35) years of age, and shall have had a period of sufficient service in the Archdiocese.

e. Those fulfilling the above conditions are candidates and are included in the list of eligible candidates regardless of the place of residence during the time of the election.

https://www.goarch.org/documents/charter

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2017, 11:13:12 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.

1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 

My Metropolitan had asked for further consideration.

Your Metropolitan wanted one particular candidate and, so it would seem, only that one.  Otherwise, everyone seemed on board with Bp Sevastianos.   

Quote
Quote
2.  But, in the entire history where the Synod was tasked with naming a successor, this move of rejecting all three names is unprecedented which is not to say that the EP doesn't have that right (it does), but a move like this has many speculating as to why this is happening now especially for such an important Metropolis like Chicago.

I doubt it's unprecedented.

If he had rejected one or two particular candidates, then he would be doing more than just resetting the procedure. He'd be picking, and that's not what this is about in spite of the cynical critics always looking for scandal and schism, which is against the Gospel.

According to this report, the Patriarchate approved the list from which they chose the three finalists in March.  The reason for "rebooting the process" (to use your expression) at this time was because the list was not comprehensive enough. 

Something doesn't smell right.   

The first author seems to hope this is a break between the Archdiocese and the Patriarch. You seem to think this is a portion of the Archdiocese pulling the Patriarch's strings. If something's bad but nobody can agree on the bad guy, then maybe it isn't so bad. But why are some of you bent on making this anything bad, in the first place -- why can't it just be a process of brethren finding harmony? If we "smell" around cynically for scandal isn't healthy for us or the bishops. I really don't understand. I'm really disappointed.

I wish the Church operated in the ideal fashion you seem desperately to want it to operate, but unfortunately it's not always so.  "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us" can get messy because of that pesky "us".  Ultimately we trust the system, but accepting that reality need not be cynicism or scandalmongering.  It can also be being "wise as serpents".  And sometimes "us" have a point.  "Us" have saved the Church from time to time when bishops were trying to kill her.

I'm sorry, but assuming the best of others and of our hierarchs isn't some dereliction of lay duty. If there is some actual pious need for confrontation, it will certainly be pressed upon us in a way we don't have to sniff out. Unless you are aware of a very obvious evil here, or, I suppose, of a long-standing pattern of a very obvious evil, then the excuse "We have to be on our toes" is just meddling. I understand there's a small tradition of gossip and politicking among Orthodox as among any other group, but I can't approve of it. Our energies should be toward harmony and mutual respect. There is no way the OCA is going to achieve the objectives her fans have for her unless there is such harmony and mutual respect already in play.

I never held up the OCA as a model to follow in this thread.  When you throw non-jurisdiction-of-Porter jurisdictions under the bus so easily while condemning questioning of jurisdiction-of-Porter issues as some sort of impious devilry, it becomes too much to take seriously.

You are right to say that "assuming the best of others...isn't some dereliction of duty".  The rest of your post is just based on lack of experience.

I have no problems with the OCA. I love her hierarchs as much as my own. It's simply a trend of OC.net that the OCA's fans attack her supposed rival in all sorts of ways as tho that could strengthen their hopes for her -- it won't.

But why bring up the OCA?

I just said why. People attack my jurisdiction with the idea it strengthens their jurisdiction's claims to unify the faith here in America.

No one mentioned the OCA (let alone attack the GOA in order to promote OCA claims in America) before you did.  You are reaching into a hat and pulling out an unrelated problem to blow smoke.     

Quote
And that's precisely wrong-headed.


Yes.  Reaching into hats and pulling out unrelated problems to blow smoke is wrong-headed.

Quote
Obviously this is only one kind of motivation, but it's the prevalent one around here. I also imagine it has some bearing on your own reactions, now that I think of it, but then again, now that I think of it, that's probably not the case.

Yeah, it's not. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2017, 11:20:12 PM »
But why bring up the OCA?

I just said why. People attack my jurisdiction with the idea it strengthens their jurisdiction's claims to unify the faith here in America.

No one mentioned the OCA (let alone attack the GOA in order to promote OCA claims in America) before you did.  You are reaching into a hat and pulling out an unrelated problem to blow smoke.

It has happened here quite often that an attack on the GOARCH is linked to OCA by OCA fans. And when it happens, it does so in a vigorously memorable fashion.

But leave that all aside, if you can, to consider my underlying point that peace and unity are not to be found in sniffing after schisms and prophesying scandals.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2017, 11:54:23 PM »
OCA, GOAA.... pshht.

I'm throwin' up Antiochian signs

« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 11:56:17 PM by TheTrisagion »
God bless!

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2017, 12:26:57 AM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals.

What is the next step? Does the GOAA submit another list of 3 different people?

Something like that. It's not important. There will be a hierarch in Chicago.
There already is a hierarch in Chicago.

And yes, it is VERY important.

Really? The precise details by which hierarchs go about their business is "VERY important" to you? I can't imagine the hubris it would take for me to feel that way, as a layman.
For one, knowing personally some of the leading candidates, and knowing the Archdiocese first hand.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2017, 12:31:35 AM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.

1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 

My Metropolitan had asked for further consideration.

Quote
2.  But, in the entire history where the Synod was tasked with naming a successor, this move of rejecting all three names is unprecedented which is not to say that the EP doesn't have that right (it does), but a move like this has many speculating as to why this is happening now especially for such an important Metropolis like Chicago.

I doubt it's unprecedented.

If he had rejected one or two particular candidates, then he would be doing more than just resetting the procedure. He'd be picking, and that's not what this is about in spite of the cynical critics always looking for scandal and schism, which is against the Gospel.
St. Mark 10:42-45
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2017, 12:36:14 AM »
St. Mark 10:42-45

So you're against hierarchy altogether now? What's your point?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2017, 12:40:57 AM »
St. Mark 10:42-45

So you're against hierarchy altogether now?
No, just ethnarchs looking for lambs to shear and slaughter rather than pastor.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2017, 12:45:16 AM »
St. Mark 10:42-45

So you're against hierarchy altogether now?
No, just ethnarchs looking for lambs to shear and slaughter rather than pastor.

Wow. Just wow. As far as I can see, and nobody here has brought evidence to the contrary, the Archdiocese and Patriarchate are following established mechanisms to do a routine part of their job. How you get from that to their being super villains and wolves I don't want to imagine.

For one, knowing personally some of the leading candidates, and knowing the Archdiocese first hand.

So some archimandrite ran over your dog or slept on your lawn? What exactly are you trying to say? If you can wipe the froth off your post and try again, I'll try to listen.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2017, 12:58:12 AM »
St. Mark 10:42-45

So you're against hierarchy altogether now?
No, just ethnarchs looking for lambs to shear and slaughter rather than pastor.

Wow. Just wow. As far as I can see, and nobody here has brought evidence to the contrary, the Archdiocese and Patriarchate are following established mechanisms to do a routine part of their job. How you get from that to their being super villains and wolves I don't want to imagine.
Knowledge. Yes, I know you are invincible from imagining that.
For one, knowing personally some of the leading candidates, and knowing the Archdiocese first hand.

So some archimandrite ran over your dog or slept on your lawn? What exactly are you trying to say? If you can wipe the froth off your post and try again, I'll try to listen.
Nope. Those who need to know-not you, as you self-admit-know.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2017, 01:01:05 AM »
St. Mark 10:42-45

So you're against hierarchy altogether now?
No, just ethnarchs looking for lambs to shear and slaughter rather than pastor.

Wow. Just wow. As far as I can see, and nobody here has brought evidence to the contrary, the Archdiocese and Patriarchate are following established mechanisms to do a routine part of their job. How you get from that to their being super villains and wolves I don't want to imagine.
Knowledge. Yes, I know you are invincible from imagining that.
For one, knowing personally some of the leading candidates, and knowing the Archdiocese first hand.

So some archimandrite ran over your dog or slept on your lawn? What exactly are you trying to say? If you can wipe the froth off your post and try again, I'll try to listen.
Nope. Those who need to know-not you, as you self-admit-know.

Ooooh it's super secret knowledge and I can't join the super secret club? So then I assume you're doing super secret good guy stuff to counteract these super secret evils. Otherwise, surely as an honest and pious Orthodox, you'd be spreading the alarm in specific-enough terms that your fellow believers could save themselves.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Hinterlander

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2017, 01:43:17 AM »
Article 14
Election of a Metropolitan

a. In every regular meeting and in consultation with the Archdiocesan Council, the Eparchial Synod reviews and modifies, through additions and deletions, the list of those eligible for the office of Metropolitan. The Auxiliary Bishops are automatically included in this list by virtue of their office. The Eparchial Synod submits the list so completed to the Ecumenical Patriarchate for its approval. The list becomes definitive after its ratification by the Ecumenical Patriarchate and is then officially published by the Archdiocese.

b. Immediately following a vacancy in the See of a Metropolis, but no later than forty (40) days thereafter, the Archbishop convenes the Eparchial Synod in a timely fashion, for the purpose of nominating, after soliciting the opinion of the members of the Archdiocesan Council, three persons, out of whom one shall be elected to fill the vacancy of the Metropolis. The nominees are taken from the above mentioned list of those eligible, pursuant to the procedure provided for by the Regulations of the Eparchial Synod.

c. The list of three nominees thus established is submitted to the Ecumenical Patriarchate. According to the existing practice, the Holy and Sacred Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate elects one of the three as the new Metropolitan.

d. A nominee for the office of Metropolitan shall be a person of deep faith and ethos, a Greek Orthodox Christian, a graduate of an academically recognized and accredited Orthodox school of theology of the highest level, have a fluent knowledge of spoken and written English and Greek, and have a proven ability in administration and pastoral work. In addition, the nominee must have all the pertinent qualifications defined by the Holy Canons, shall not be less than thirty-five (35) years of age, and shall have had a period of sufficient service in the Archdiocese.

e. Those fulfilling the above conditions are candidates and are included in the list of eligible candidates regardless of the place of residence during the time of the election.

https://www.goarch.org/documents/charter

From what I understand from the article the process reached c than went back to a because there is some question as to whether d and e were fulfilled?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2017, 02:46:13 AM »
There already is a hierarch in Chicago.

You see what I mean, Mor? I mean, come on.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Alpha60

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2017, 03:53:04 AM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.

1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 

My Metropolitan had asked for further consideration.

Your Metropolitan wanted one particular candidate and, so it would seem, only that one.  Otherwise, everyone seemed on board with Bp Sevastianos.   

Quote
Quote
2.  But, in the entire history where the Synod was tasked with naming a successor, this move of rejecting all three names is unprecedented which is not to say that the EP doesn't have that right (it does), but a move like this has many speculating as to why this is happening now especially for such an important Metropolis like Chicago.

I doubt it's unprecedented.

If he had rejected one or two particular candidates, then he would be doing more than just resetting the procedure. He'd be picking, and that's not what this is about in spite of the cynical critics always looking for scandal and schism, which is against the Gospel.

According to this report, the Patriarchate approved the list from which they chose the three finalists in March.  The reason for "rebooting the process" (to use your expression) at this time was because the list was not comprehensive enough. 

Something doesn't smell right.   

The first author seems to hope this is a break between the Archdiocese and the Patriarch. You seem to think this is a portion of the Archdiocese pulling the Patriarch's strings. If something's bad but nobody can agree on the bad guy, then maybe it isn't so bad. But why are some of you bent on making this anything bad, in the first place -- why can't it just be a process of brethren finding harmony? If we "smell" around cynically for scandal isn't healthy for us or the bishops. I really don't understand. I'm really disappointed.

I wish the Church operated in the ideal fashion you seem desperately to want it to operate, but unfortunately it's not always so.  "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us" can get messy because of that pesky "us".  Ultimately we trust the system, but accepting that reality need not be cynicism or scandalmongering.  It can also be being "wise as serpents".  And sometimes "us" have a point.  "Us" have saved the Church from time to time when bishops were trying to kill her.

This is a valid point.   From an EO perspective, take a look at the Council of Florence, when you had most of the powerful bishops supporting it, and only one major bishop standing in opposition, relying on the laity for support (who provided that support even with the sure knowledge that it would lead to Turkocratia, the leverage used at Florence by the Latins to force a reunion on their terms).
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #46 on: July 14, 2017, 04:10:55 AM »
Perhaps the best approach is to venerate the office of the bishop and recognize bishops as for the most part loving and pious masters of the church, who are nonetheless not infallible, and on occasion, if they err seriously, it behooves senior and well respected members of the laity to complain privately or publically about it.

Church politics is quite nasty in general.

There is one thing by the way that I am finding slightly disagreeable about this situation: GOAA is not an autonomous archbishophric, yet at the same time its bishops apparently are not members of the Holy Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

I can understand not having autonomous churches like the Church of Finland not have their bishops in the Holy Synod, but for an archbishophric that is not autonomous, I don't quite get the point of that.   

One major problem in Orthodox ecclesiology is that, even with autonomous churches, several churches seem to be inadvertantly creating quasi-Cardinalates in the form of the Holy Synod of the Patriarchate, which is separate from and has authority over the Holy Synods of the regional churches administered by that Patriarchate.   In the EP one can criticize in particular the large number of powerful titular bishops in the Phanar.  It feels to me like this canonical arrangement will lead to alienation and frustration on the part of the regional archbishophrics and autonomous churches, which may find themselves overruled on the matter of the selection of a bishop for what is actually a good and valid reason, but, because they were not involved in the decision, the action would seem arbitrary and capricious.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpo

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #47 on: July 14, 2017, 10:06:24 AM »
Slightly amusing considering that there already is an American church which chooses it's own hierarchs without outside interference.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #48 on: July 14, 2017, 10:48:00 AM »
But why bring up the OCA?

I just said why. People attack my jurisdiction with the idea it strengthens their jurisdiction's claims to unify the faith here in America.

No one mentioned the OCA (let alone attack the GOA in order to promote OCA claims in America) before you did.  You are reaching into a hat and pulling out an unrelated problem to blow smoke.

It has happened here quite often that an attack on the GOARCH is linked to OCA by OCA fans. And when it happens, it does so in a vigorously memorable fashion.

It didn't happen here until you tried to make it happen.   

Quote
But leave that all aside, if you can, to consider my underlying point that peace and unity are not to be found in sniffing after schisms and prophesying scandals.

That's your perception of what is going on here.  Undoubtedly, there are people who do just that.  But it doesn't follow that all people with concerns are simply stirring up trouble. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2017, 10:48:46 AM »
There already is a hierarch in Chicago.

You see what I mean, Mor? I mean, come on.



???
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #50 on: July 14, 2017, 10:53:08 AM »
Article 14
Election of a Metropolitan

a. In every regular meeting and in consultation with the Archdiocesan Council, the Eparchial Synod reviews and modifies, through additions and deletions, the list of those eligible for the office of Metropolitan. The Auxiliary Bishops are automatically included in this list by virtue of their office. The Eparchial Synod submits the list so completed to the Ecumenical Patriarchate for its approval. The list becomes definitive after its ratification by the Ecumenical Patriarchate and is then officially published by the Archdiocese.

b. Immediately following a vacancy in the See of a Metropolis, but no later than forty (40) days thereafter, the Archbishop convenes the Eparchial Synod in a timely fashion, for the purpose of nominating, after soliciting the opinion of the members of the Archdiocesan Council, three persons, out of whom one shall be elected to fill the vacancy of the Metropolis. The nominees are taken from the above mentioned list of those eligible, pursuant to the procedure provided for by the Regulations of the Eparchial Synod.

c. The list of three nominees thus established is submitted to the Ecumenical Patriarchate. According to the existing practice, the Holy and Sacred Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate elects one of the three as the new Metropolitan.

d. A nominee for the office of Metropolitan shall be a person of deep faith and ethos, a Greek Orthodox Christian, a graduate of an academically recognized and accredited Orthodox school of theology of the highest level, have a fluent knowledge of spoken and written English and Greek, and have a proven ability in administration and pastoral work. In addition, the nominee must have all the pertinent qualifications defined by the Holy Canons, shall not be less than thirty-five (35) years of age, and shall have had a period of sufficient service in the Archdiocese.

e. Those fulfilling the above conditions are candidates and are included in the list of eligible candidates regardless of the place of residence during the time of the election.

https://www.goarch.org/documents/charter

From what I understand from the article the process reached c than went back to a because there is some question as to whether d and e were fulfilled?

I guess what I'd want to know is, assuming the reports are trustworthy, why the Patriarchate approved the list before an election took place (14a) and, after the election took place, decided there was a problem with the list.  How often does it happen that the Patriarchate second-guesses itself in such matters?   
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #51 on: July 14, 2017, 10:53:50 AM »
Slightly amusing considering that there already is an American church which chooses it's own hierarchs without outside interference.

But my heart belongs to ROCOR. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #52 on: July 14, 2017, 11:55:24 AM »
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #53 on: July 14, 2017, 12:03:30 PM »
Slightly amusing considering that there already is an American church which chooses it's own hierarchs without outside interference.

Mor, if you're not seeing this, maybe you need a new prescription.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #54 on: July 14, 2017, 12:04:51 PM »
Church politics is quite nasty in general.

At least people are eager to think so.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #55 on: July 14, 2017, 12:10:42 PM »
Slightly amusing considering that there already is an American church which chooses it's own hierarchs without outside interference.

Mor, if you're not seeing this, maybe you need a new prescription.

That post was some twelve hours or so after you first introduced the OCA into discussion.  I know a lot of people have problems with their OCNet timestamps, but I don't think the forum is displaying posts out of chronological order.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #56 on: July 14, 2017, 12:12:53 PM »
Slightly amusing considering that there already is an American church which chooses it's own hierarchs without outside interference.

Mor, if you're not seeing this, maybe you need a new prescription.

That post was some twelve hours or so after you first introduced the OCA into discussion.  I know a lot of people have problems with their OCNet timestamps, but I don't think the forum is displaying posts out of chronological order.

As long as we're ignoring the larger point to be children, Isa brought OCA up first in the thread. Shockingly uncharacteristic, I know.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #57 on: July 14, 2017, 12:25:37 PM »
Slightly amusing considering that there already is an American church which chooses it's own hierarchs without outside interference.

Mor, if you're not seeing this, maybe you need a new prescription.

That post was some twelve hours or so after you first introduced the OCA into discussion.  I know a lot of people have problems with their OCNet timestamps, but I don't think the forum is displaying posts out of chronological order.

As long as we're ignoring the larger point to be children...

Speak for yourself.

Quote
...Isa brought OCA up first in the thread. Shockingly uncharacteristic, I know.

How would you know that considering the OCA wasn't named in the post at all?  There are something like five bishops in Chicago, and one of them is the auxiliary bishop of the GOA Metropolis of Chicago. 

For someone who complains pietistically about sniffing out schisms and prophesying scandals, you are not above fomenting them in your own way.   
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #58 on: July 14, 2017, 12:29:23 PM »
So what is your concern in this case, Mor? That independence of the American churches be upheld? I'm trying to give folks the benefit of the doubt that there could be more than gossip here, and that sounds to me like what a legitimate concern might be.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #59 on: July 14, 2017, 12:33:10 PM »
So what is your concern in this case, Mor? That independence of the American churches be upheld? I'm trying to give folks the benefit of the doubt that there could be more than gossip here, and that sounds to me like what a legitimate concern might be.

I'm an interested observer asking questions about a process based on publicly available documents and news reports. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #60 on: July 14, 2017, 12:37:56 PM »
And then there's this...

Interesting article. If my reading of the GOAA Charter is correct (50%50% chance really) Metropolitan Nikitis could/should be entered on the list of all eligible candidates but that does not require the local eparchial synod from including it as one of the 3 names it submits to the EP.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #61 on: July 14, 2017, 12:39:09 PM »
So what is your concern in this case, Mor? That independence of the American churches be upheld? I'm trying to give folks the benefit of the doubt that there could be more than gossip here, and that sounds to me like what a legitimate concern might be.

I'm an interested observer asking questions about a process based on publicly available documents and news reports.

Then I gave you too much credit, but I don't regret it.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #62 on: July 14, 2017, 12:50:18 PM »
So what is your concern in this case, Mor? That independence of the American churches be upheld? I'm trying to give folks the benefit of the doubt that there could be more than gossip here, and that sounds to me like what a legitimate concern might be.

I'm an interested observer asking questions about a process based on publicly available documents and news reports.

Then I gave you too much credit, but I don't regret it.

lol
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline hecma925

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Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #64 on: July 14, 2017, 12:51:20 PM »
There already is a hierarch in Chicago.

You see what I mean, Mor? I mean, come on.



???



No love for the Serbs?  I've got plenty of love for the Serbs.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline hecma925

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #65 on: July 14, 2017, 12:54:21 PM »
There already is a hierarch in Chicago.

You see what I mean, Mor? I mean, come on.



???



No love for the Serbs?  I've got plenty of love for the Serbs.

Lol, Grayslake!  Thanks, Mor.

Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #66 on: July 14, 2017, 12:55:57 PM »
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline hecma925

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #67 on: July 14, 2017, 12:58:17 PM »
I like the Romanian hat best.  The OCA one is atrocious.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #68 on: July 14, 2017, 01:04:57 PM »
And then there's this...

Interesting article. If my reading of the GOAA Charter is correct (50%50% chance really) Metropolitan Nikitis could/should be entered on the list of all eligible candidates but that does not require the local eparchial synod from including it as one of the 3 names it submits to the EP.

That's my understanding. 

For the record, the list prior to the now-nixed election.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #69 on: July 14, 2017, 01:05:53 PM »
I like the Romanian hat best.  The OCA one is atrocious.

That ugly staff helps you ignore the hat. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline hecma925

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #70 on: July 14, 2017, 01:10:25 PM »
I like the Romanian hat best.  The OCA one is atrocious.

That ugly staff helps you ignore the hat.

The best Chicago could offer, unfortunately.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Alpo

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #71 on: July 14, 2017, 06:08:43 PM »
Slightly amusing considering that there already is an American church which chooses it's own hierarchs without outside interference.

Mor, if you're not seeing this, maybe you need a new prescription.

That post was some twelve hours or so after you first introduced the OCA into discussion.  I know a lot of people have problems with their OCNet timestamps, but I don't think the forum is displaying posts out of chronological order.

Nah. I just didn't read the whole thread before posting.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 06:09:26 PM by Alpo »
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Opus118

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #72 on: July 14, 2017, 09:23:34 PM »
And then there's this...

Interesting article. If my reading of the GOAA Charter is correct (50%50% chance really) Metropolitan Nikitis could/should be entered on the list of all eligible candidates but that does not require the local eparchial synod from including it as one of the 3 names it submits to the EP.

I seem to remember predicting that Florida-born, Metropolitan Nikitis will be the next Ecumenical Patriarch. Maybe there is a connection here.

"Mi tío es enfermo, pero la carretera es verde!" - old Chilean saying

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #73 on: July 14, 2017, 09:50:38 PM »
And then there's this...

Interesting article. If my reading of the GOAA Charter is correct (50%50% chance really) Metropolitan Nikitis could/should be entered on the list of all eligible candidates but that does not require the local eparchial synod from including it as one of the 3 names it submits to the EP.

I seem to remember predicting that Florida-born, Metropolitan Nikitis will be the next Ecumenical Patriarch. Maybe there is a connection here.

The truth comes out, and the conspirators were off by a mile. Opus118 is the one pulling the Patriarchate's strings.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #74 on: July 14, 2017, 11:17:16 PM »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #75 on: July 14, 2017, 11:23:56 PM »
Slightly amusing considering that there already is an American church which chooses it's own hierarchs without outside interference.

Mor, if you're not seeing this, maybe you need a new prescription.

That post was some twelve hours or so after you first introduced the OCA into discussion.  I know a lot of people have problems with their OCNet timestamps, but I don't think the forum is displaying posts out of chronological order.

As long as we're ignoring the larger point to be children...

Speak for yourself.

Quote
...Isa brought OCA up first in the thread. Shockingly uncharacteristic, I know.

How would you know that considering the OCA wasn't named in the post at all?  There are something like five bishops in Chicago, and one of them is the auxiliary bishop of the GOA Metropolis of Chicago
you are correct, as it was to him that I was referring. If I meant the OCA, I would have said more, as I have plenty to say.

But don't confuse Porter with the facts.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #76 on: July 14, 2017, 11:26:12 PM »
That article Mor linked pretty much speaks my mind. American weak brothers, living half-Orthodox lives, racist, we need Bp. Nikitas to teach us Christian manners.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #77 on: July 14, 2017, 11:27:40 PM »
And then there's this...
what do they have against widowers?

Good question. I suppose they are not monastic enough? Traditionally, Greek widows may as well have been the walking dead. But widowers didn't have such outcaste status.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #78 on: July 14, 2017, 11:41:28 PM »
There already is a hierarch in Chicago.

You see what I mean, Mor? I mean, come on.



???



No love for the Serbs?  I've got plenty of love for the Serbs.
Lol, Grayslake!  Thanks, Mor.

I love Ukrainians

And Serbs, and Russians and Romanians even still.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 11:42:09 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #79 on: July 14, 2017, 11:46:57 PM »
That article Mor linked pretty much speaks my mind. American weak brothers, living half-Orthodox lives, racist, we need Bp. Nikitas to teach us Christian manners.
Whatever happened to him giving up his US citizenship for Turkish citizenship?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #80 on: July 15, 2017, 12:13:55 AM »
That article Mor linked pretty much speaks my mind. American weak brothers, living half-Orthodox lives, racist, we need Bp. Nikitas to teach us Christian manners.
Whatever happened to him giving up his US citizenship for Turkish citizenship?

Several bishops have been given Turkish citizenship in a special capacity, without, to my knowledge, having to give up their original citizenships. My Metropolitan is one. It's a concession from the Turkish government with an eye toward keeping the EP intact.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Basil 320

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #81 on: July 15, 2017, 06:19:12 AM »
Article 14
Election of a Metropolitan

a. In every regular meeting and in consultation with the Archdiocesan Council, the Eparchial Synod reviews and modifies, through additions and deletions, the list of those eligible for the office of Metropolitan. The Auxiliary Bishops are automatically included in this list by virtue of their office. The Eparchial Synod submits the list so completed to the Ecumenical Patriarchate for its approval. The list becomes definitive after its ratification by the Ecumenical Patriarchate and is then officially published by the Archdiocese.

b. Immediately following a vacancy in the See of a Metropolis, but no later than forty (40) days thereafter, the Archbishop convenes the Eparchial Synod in a timely fashion, for the purpose of nominating, after soliciting the opinion of the members of the Archdiocesan Council, three persons, out of whom one shall be elected to fill the vacancy of the Metropolis. The nominees are taken from the above mentioned list of those eligible, pursuant to the procedure provided for by the Regulations of the Eparchial Synod.

c. The list of three nominees thus established is submitted to the Ecumenical Patriarchate. According to the existing practice, the Holy and Sacred Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate elects one of the three as the new Metropolitan.

d. A nominee for the office of Metropolitan shall be a person of deep faith and ethos, a Greek Orthodox Christian, a graduate of an academically recognized and accredited Orthodox school of theology of the highest level, have a fluent knowledge of spoken and written English and Greek, and have a proven ability in administration and pastoral work. In addition, the nominee must have all the pertinent qualifications defined by the Holy Canons, shall not be less than thirty-five (35) years of age, and shall have had a period of sufficient service in the Archdiocese.

e. Those fulfilling the above conditions are candidates and are included in the list of eligible candidates regardless of the place of residence during the time of the election.

https://www.goarch.org/documents/charter

From what I understand from the article the process reached c than went back to a because there is some question as to whether d and e were fulfilled?

I guess what I'd want to know is, assuming the reports are trustworthy, why the Patriarchate approved the list before an election took place (14a) and, after the election took place, decided there was a problem with the list.  How often does it happen that the Patriarchate second-guesses itself in such matters?   

The answer is a cleric who was within GOArch prior to 1996, but was elevated to the episcopacy and was assigned to two other posts under the Ecumenical Patriarchate and outside the Holy Archdiocese since then, is the unofficial choice of His All Holiness to fill the See of Chicago. So, the alleged issue with the eligible candidates list is classic "Byzantine Intrigue" intended to confuse the issue.
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #82 on: July 15, 2017, 06:44:55 AM »
The venerable Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople is as wrong with this unprecedented act as it was with its election to succeed Archbishop Iakovos in 1996. The Holy Eparchial Synod appropriately, methodically, and prayerfully deliberated its "Three Person Ballot."

Archbishop Demetrios has traveled these muddy waters before and I am hoping he devises a strategy to demonstrate to the Ecumenical Throne the error of their awfully aggressive, unprecedented action.

But we must not back down and submit to the confusion the Throne is attempting to foster. That's what they'd love, to give them a reason to impose unilateral action.

The GOArch clergy and faithful must unite in support of the properly constituted "Three Person Ballot." We may need to rally and mount a campaign such as was mounted by GOAL (Greek Orthodox American Leaders) in 1997-'99. Hopefully, we can keep a level head, while remaining focused and determined to support the "Three Person Ballot" as it was properly constituted, but be prepared for them to cite "disobedience," another one of their means to act unilaterally, without regard to the process in the Charter.

This rejection of the "Three Person Ballot" demonstrates it's also past the time that GOArch acts to advocate for the semi-autonomous Constitutional Charter that the GOArch Holy Synod of Bishops submitted to the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 2000.
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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #83 on: July 15, 2017, 07:31:48 AM »
I almost want to laugh at the responses to the news stories.  As usual, both sources have decided to take a kernel of truth and mix it in with a barrel of their POV to spin.  Each one supports a specific candidate and perspective.  Please, just pray for the Synods involved (Eparchial and Patriarchal).
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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #84 on: July 15, 2017, 12:48:31 PM »
The venerable Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople is as wrong with this unprecedented act as it was with its election to succeed Archbishop Iakovos in 1996. The Holy Eparchial Synod appropriately, methodically, and prayerfully deliberated its "Three Person Ballot."

Archbishop Demetrios has traveled these muddy waters before and I am hoping he devises a strategy to demonstrate to the Ecumenical Throne the error of their awfully aggressive, unprecedented action.

But we must not back down and submit to the confusion the Throne is attempting to foster. That's what they'd love, to give them a reason to impose unilateral action.

The GOArch clergy and faithful must unite in support of the properly constituted "Three Person Ballot." We may need to rally and mount a campaign such as was mounted by GOAL (Greek Orthodox American Leaders) in 1997-'99. Hopefully, we can keep a level head, while remaining focused and determined to support the "Three Person Ballot" as it was properly constituted, but be prepared for them to cite "disobedience," another one of their means to act unilaterally, without regard to the process in the Charter.

This rejection of the "Three Person Ballot" demonstrates it's also past the time that GOArch acts to advocate for the semi-autonomous Constitutional Charter that the GOArch Holy Synod of Bishops submitted to the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 2000.

You're blaming the EP for the end of Iakovos? Put the blame where it belongs, on lay scoundrels like Stephanopoulos.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #85 on: July 15, 2017, 12:48:44 PM »
I almost want to laugh at the responses to the news stories.  As usual, both sources have decided to take a kernel of truth and mix it in with a barrel of their POV to spin.  Each one supports a specific candidate and perspective.  Please, just pray for the Synods involved (Eparchial and Patriarchal).

Amen.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Basil 320

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #86 on: July 15, 2017, 01:31:48 PM »
The venerable Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople is as wrong with this unprecedented act as it was with its election to succeed Archbishop Iakovos in 1996. The Holy Eparchial Synod appropriately, methodically, and prayerfully deliberated its "Three Person Ballot."

Archbishop Demetrios has traveled these muddy waters before and I am hoping he devises a strategy to demonstrate to the Ecumenical Throne the error of their awfully aggressive, unprecedented action.

But we must not back down and submit to the confusion the Throne is attempting to foster. That's what they'd love, to give them a reason to impose unilateral action.

The GOArch clergy and faithful must unite in support of the properly constituted "Three Person Ballot." We may need to rally and mount a campaign such as was mounted by GOAL (Greek Orthodox American Leaders) in 1997-'99. Hopefully, we can keep a level head, while remaining focused and determined to support the "Three Person Ballot" as it was properly constituted, but be prepared for them to cite "disobedience," another one of their means to act unilaterally, without regard to the process in the Charter.

This rejection of the "Three Person Ballot" demonstrates it's also past the time that GOArch acts to advocate for the semi-autonomous Constitutional Charter that the GOArch Holy Synod of Bishops submitted to the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 2000.

You're blaming the EP for the end of Iakovos? Put the blame where it belongs, on lay scoundrels like Stephanopoulos.

I was blaming the Ecumenical Patriarchate for the election of his successor, Archbishop Spyridon, whose 3 year Archepiscopal tenure saw more discord in the Holy Archdiocese than it had witnessed in 67 years.
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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #87 on: July 15, 2017, 01:51:23 PM »
The venerable Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople is as wrong with this unprecedented act as it was with its election to succeed Archbishop Iakovos in 1996. The Holy Eparchial Synod appropriately, methodically, and prayerfully deliberated its "Three Person Ballot."

Archbishop Demetrios has traveled these muddy waters before and I am hoping he devises a strategy to demonstrate to the Ecumenical Throne the error of their awfully aggressive, unprecedented action.

But we must not back down and submit to the confusion the Throne is attempting to foster. That's what they'd love, to give them a reason to impose unilateral action.

The GOArch clergy and faithful must unite in support of the properly constituted "Three Person Ballot." We may need to rally and mount a campaign such as was mounted by GOAL (Greek Orthodox American Leaders) in 1997-'99. Hopefully, we can keep a level head, while remaining focused and determined to support the "Three Person Ballot" as it was properly constituted, but be prepared for them to cite "disobedience," another one of their means to act unilaterally, without regard to the process in the Charter.

This rejection of the "Three Person Ballot" demonstrates it's also past the time that GOArch acts to advocate for the semi-autonomous Constitutional Charter that the GOArch Holy Synod of Bishops submitted to the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 2000.

You're blaming the EP for the end of Iakovos? Put the blame where it belongs, on lay scoundrels like Stephanopoulos.

I was blaming the Ecumenical Patriarchate for the election of his successor, Archbishop Spyridon, whose 3 year Archepiscopal tenure saw more discord in the Holy Archdiocese than it had witnessed in 67 years.

And again you're purposely overlooking the part played by American Greeks of wealth and low character stirring up hatred against the Church.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #88 on: July 15, 2017, 03:55:36 PM »
The venerable Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople is as wrong with this unprecedented act as it was with its election to succeed Archbishop Iakovos in 1996. The Holy Eparchial Synod appropriately, methodically, and prayerfully deliberated its "Three Person Ballot."

Archbishop Demetrios has traveled these muddy waters before and I am hoping he devises a strategy to demonstrate to the Ecumenical Throne the error of their awfully aggressive, unprecedented action.

But we must not back down and submit to the confusion the Throne is attempting to foster. That's what they'd love, to give them a reason to impose unilateral action.

The GOArch clergy and faithful must unite in support of the properly constituted "Three Person Ballot." We may need to rally and mount a campaign such as was mounted by GOAL (Greek Orthodox American Leaders) in 1997-'99. Hopefully, we can keep a level head, while remaining focused and determined to support the "Three Person Ballot" as it was properly constituted, but be prepared for them to cite "disobedience," another one of their means to act unilaterally, without regard to the process in the Charter.

This rejection of the "Three Person Ballot" demonstrates it's also past the time that GOArch acts to advocate for the semi-autonomous Constitutional Charter that the GOArch Holy Synod of Bishops submitted to the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 2000.

You're blaming the EP for the end of Iakovos? Put the blame where it belongs, on lay scoundrels like Stephanopoulos.

I was blaming the Ecumenical Patriarchate for the election of his successor, Archbishop Spyridon, whose 3 year Archepiscopal tenure saw more discord in the Holy Archdiocese than it had witnessed in 67 years.

And again you're purposely overlooking the part played by American Greeks of wealth and low character stirring up hatred against the Church.
You mean the Phanar's archon class?
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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #89 on: July 15, 2017, 04:31:39 PM »
The venerable Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople is as wrong with this unprecedented act as it was with its election to succeed Archbishop Iakovos in 1996. The Holy Eparchial Synod appropriately, methodically, and prayerfully deliberated its "Three Person Ballot."

Archbishop Demetrios has traveled these muddy waters before and I am hoping he devises a strategy to demonstrate to the Ecumenical Throne the error of their awfully aggressive, unprecedented action.

But we must not back down and submit to the confusion the Throne is attempting to foster. That's what they'd love, to give them a reason to impose unilateral action.

The GOArch clergy and faithful must unite in support of the properly constituted "Three Person Ballot." We may need to rally and mount a campaign such as was mounted by GOAL (Greek Orthodox American Leaders) in 1997-'99. Hopefully, we can keep a level head, while remaining focused and determined to support the "Three Person Ballot" as it was properly constituted, but be prepared for them to cite "disobedience," another one of their means to act unilaterally, without regard to the process in the Charter.

This rejection of the "Three Person Ballot" demonstrates it's also past the time that GOArch acts to advocate for the semi-autonomous Constitutional Charter that the GOArch Holy Synod of Bishops submitted to the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 2000.

You're blaming the EP for the end of Iakovos? Put the blame where it belongs, on lay scoundrels like Stephanopoulos.

I was blaming the Ecumenical Patriarchate for the election of his successor, Archbishop Spyridon, whose 3 year Archepiscopal tenure saw more discord in the Holy Archdiocese than it had witnessed in 67 years.

And again you're purposely overlooking the part played by American Greeks of wealth and low character stirring up hatred against the Church.
You mean the Phanar's archon class?

Don't confuse me.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline kijabeboy03

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #90 on: July 17, 2017, 10:09:21 AM »
Man, I'm giving up my telenovela and watching this thread instead! ;-)
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #91 on: July 17, 2017, 10:52:21 AM »
Man, I'm giving up my telenovela and watching this thread instead! ;-)

Telenovela in China? Drama and epics are more common there afaik
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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #92 on: July 17, 2017, 11:53:39 AM »
And then there's this...
what do they have against widowers?

I think what the article is trying to communicate to us, in an understandably cryptic fashion, is that the wives of priests are being assassinated to fit them for the bishopric.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #93 on: July 21, 2017, 11:50:30 AM »
'Archbishop Demetrios and Hierarchs of America in Defiance of the Ecumenical Patriarchate'

https://www.thenationalherald.com/169898/archbishop-demetrios-hierarchs-america-defiance-ecumenical-patriarchate/

Quote
BOSTON – The Holy Eparchial Synod of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America defied the Synodical decision of the Ecumenical Patriarchate to revise the List of Candidates for the elevation to Episcopacy.

Instead in a unpresented[sic] move they decided that the Archbishop with a representation of hierarchs travel to Constantinople to try to convince Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew to reverse the initial Synodical decision that canceled the election of Bishop Sevastianos of Zela as Metropolitan of Chicago.
Quote
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Offline Agabus

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #94 on: July 21, 2017, 11:52:39 AM »
'Archbishop Demetrios and Hierarchs of America in Defiance of the Ecumenical Patriarchate'

https://www.thenationalherald.com/169898/archbishop-demetrios-hierarchs-america-defiance-ecumenical-patriarchate/

Quote
BOSTON – The Holy Eparchial Synod of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America defied the Synodical decision of the Ecumenical Patriarchate to revise the List of Candidates for the elevation to Episcopacy.

Instead in a unpresented[sic] move they decided that the Archbishop with a representation of hierarchs travel to Constantinople to try to convince Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew to reverse the initial Synodical decision that canceled the election of Bishop Sevastianos of Zela as Metropolitan of Chicago.

Oh boy...
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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #95 on: July 21, 2017, 12:29:03 PM »
Got to love the sensationalism.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Basil 320

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #96 on: July 22, 2017, 02:05:44 AM »
I am so very pleased to see that the Most Reverend Hierarchy of the Holy Eparchial Synod of America stood behind their "Three Person Ballot" as it was originally composed, and did not succumb to the venerable Mother Church's directive to reconstitute the Eligible Candidates List, which it has been approving for over a decade, most recently this past March. The election of the candidates on the "Three Person Ballot" was accomplished in full compliance with the Constitutional Charter, under the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, I'm sure. The intent of reconstituting the Candidates List is an effort to confuse the process, in the middle of an election process. The act of the Patriarchate's rejection of the "Three Person Ballot" was a rude smack at the holy hierarchs of the Holy Archdiocese of America, and the Reverend Clergy who were properly elected to the "Three Person Ballot."

His All Holiness should not forget that the matter of hierarchical elections were the most hotly debated clauses of the revised Constitutional Charter in 2000 and 2001. The settlement clause, proposed by Archbishop Demetrios, specifically stated that the current (and past) practice was to elect the candidate who secured the highest number of votes from the Eparchial Synod.

May God continue to inspire Archbishop Demetrios in his primacial responsibilities on behalf of the clergy and faithful of the Holy Archdiocese of America, and may the Ecumenical Patriarchate be enlightened to appreciate the position they have placed upon its Senior (Geron) Archdiocese of America, which is such a loyal daughter to the Mother Church and desires to remain within the loving embrace of the Ecumenical Throne. His Eminence has been an Orthodox primate par excellence, never interfering into the internal affairs of the Holy Metropolises, while coordinating the "matters of common concern." He brought peace and progress to the American Archdiocese upon his enthronement from the substantial turmoil he inherited from his predecessor, which was caused by a wrong-headed Archepiscopal election of the Ecumenical Throne in 1996.


                                   "Demetrios, the Most Reverend and God-chosen Archbishop
                                   of the Holy Archdiocese of America,
                                   Primate and Exarch of the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans,
                                   our spiritual Father and hierarch,
                                   Many Years!"
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 02:08:25 AM by Basil 320 »
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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #97 on: July 22, 2017, 03:13:47 AM »
::)
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #99 on: July 22, 2017, 11:54:17 AM »
Got to love the sensationalism.

Exactly.  There are one or two people who are choosing to leak information, but it goes to sources that want to advocate for specific candidates, and therefore gets spun heavily before publication.
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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #100 on: July 22, 2017, 12:55:02 PM »
::)

What now?

Basil 320's song and dance was more than a little ridiculous.

I'm sure these fathers, beloved brethren, will continue to work thru the matter for the spiritual benefit of all. Treating of brethren as tho they are enemies better suits the demons' ditty of discord than a sacred chant.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #101 on: July 22, 2017, 12:58:38 PM »
::)

What now?

Basil 320's song and dance was more than a little ridiculous.

I'm sure these fathers, beloved brethren, will continue to work thru the matter for the spiritual benefit of all. Treating of brethren as tho they are enemies better suits the demons' ditty of discord than a sacred chant.

But he used all the correct, pious adjectives and phrases. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #102 on: July 22, 2017, 01:01:10 PM »
*sigh*

I'm just glad Christ is the true Head of all the local churches, as he is infinitely wise and merciful.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #103 on: July 22, 2017, 11:29:29 PM »
I am so very pleased to see that the Most Reverend Hierarchy of the Holy Eparchial Synod of America stood behind their "Three Person Ballot" as it was originally composed, and did not succumb to the venerable Mother Church's directive to reconstitute the Eligible Candidates List, which it has been approving for over a decade, most recently this past March. The election of the candidates on the "Three Person Ballot" was accomplished in full compliance with the Constitutional Charter, under the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, I'm sure. The intent of reconstituting the Candidates List is an effort to confuse the process, in the middle of an election process. The act of the Patriarchate's rejection of the "Three Person Ballot" was a rude smack at the holy hierarchs of the Holy Archdiocese of America, and the Reverend Clergy who were properly elected to the "Three Person Ballot."

His All Holiness should not forget that the matter of hierarchical elections were the most hotly debated clauses of the revised Constitutional Charter in 2000 and 2001. The settlement clause, proposed by Archbishop Demetrios, specifically stated that the current (and past) practice was to elect the candidate who secured the highest number of votes from the Eparchial Synod.

May God continue to inspire Archbishop Demetrios in his primacial responsibilities on behalf of the clergy and faithful of the Holy Archdiocese of America, and may the Ecumenical Patriarchate be enlightened to appreciate the position they have placed upon its Senior (Geron) Archdiocese of America, which is such a loyal daughter to the Mother Church and desires to remain within the loving embrace of the Ecumenical Throne. His Eminence has been an Orthodox primate par excellence, never interfering into the internal affairs of the Holy Metropolises, while coordinating the "matters of common concern." He brought peace and progress to the American Archdiocese upon his enthronement from the substantial turmoil he inherited from his predecessor, which was caused by a wrong-headed Archepiscopal election of the Ecumenical Throne in 1996.


                                   "Demetrios, the Most Reverend and God-chosen Archbishop
                                                                    Many Years!"
Many Years! Axios!
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #104 on: July 22, 2017, 11:37:16 PM »
::)

What now?

Basil 320's song and dance was more than a little ridiculous.

I'm sure these fathers, beloved brethren, will continue to work thru the matter for the spiritual benefit of all. Treating of brethren as tho they are enemies better suits the demons' ditty of discord than a sacred chant.
You can't smell the sulfur and call it incense.

The demons have not found Abp. Demetrios (Many Years! Axios!) a suitable instruments for working out their will, nor been able to actively employ him in raising up for the whole Church stumbling-blocks. The same cannot be said for some others.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #105 on: July 22, 2017, 11:40:45 PM »
::)

What now?

Basil 320's song and dance was more than a little ridiculous.

I'm sure these fathers, beloved brethren, will continue to work thru the matter for the spiritual benefit of all. Treating of brethren as tho they are enemies better suits the demons' ditty of discord than a sacred chant.
You can't smell the sulfur and call it incense.

The demons have not found Abp. Demetrios (Many Years! Axios!) a suitable instruments for working out their will, nor been able to actively employ him in raising up for the whole Church stumbling-blocks. The same cannot be said for some others.

God rebuke you for referring to our holy hierarchs as demons, or demons' playthings. The Evil One is the author of discord, dissolution, and depression. The Christ is the author of brotherly harmony and a hopeful spirit in spite of all ups and downs. Personal political and doctrinal preferences don't enter into it and aren't a basis for such accusation.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #106 on: July 22, 2017, 11:44:47 PM »
I may not agree with actions that the EP takes, but I think it is reprehensible to refer to him as demon possessed.  >:(
God bless!

Offline Basil 320

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #107 on: July 22, 2017, 11:51:40 PM »
::)

What now?

Basil 320's song and dance was more than a little ridiculous.

I'm sure these fathers, beloved brethren, will continue to work thru the matter for the spiritual benefit of all. Treating of brethren as tho they are enemies better suits the demons' ditty of discord than a sacred chant.

I hope you're right, never-the-less.
"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #108 on: July 23, 2017, 12:34:54 AM »
I think I see now that Isa was harping on a theme I began. I'm slow sometimes. Still, lamentable and just unacceptable to take it there.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #109 on: July 23, 2017, 02:53:28 PM »
::)

What now?

Basil 320's song and dance was more than a little ridiculous.

I'm sure these fathers, beloved brethren, will continue to work thru the matter for the spiritual benefit of all. Treating of brethren as tho they are enemies better suits the demons' ditty of discord than a sacred chant.
You can't smell the sulfur and call it incense.

The demons have not found Abp. Demetrios (Many Years! Axios!) a suitable instruments for working out their will, nor been able to actively employ him in raising up for the whole Church stumbling-blocks. The same cannot be said for some others.

God rebuke you for referring to our holy hierarchs as demons, or demons' playthings. The Evil One is the author of discord, dissolution, and depression. The Christ is the author of brotherly harmony and a hopeful spirit in spite of all ups and downs. Personal political and doctrinal preferences don't enter into it and aren't a basis for such accusation.
we know that some picture "brotherly harmony" like this

but we don't. Convey our regrets to the Metropolitan of Bursa (too bad he is no longer the official spokesman. His press release on this would have been interesting).
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Opus118

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #110 on: July 23, 2017, 06:35:13 PM »
I am so very pleased to see that the Most Reverend Hierarchy of the Holy Eparchial Synod of America stood behind their "Three Person Ballot" as it was originally composed, and did not succumb to the venerable Mother Church's directive to reconstitute the Eligible Candidates List, which it has been approving for over a decade, most recently this past March. The election of the candidates on the "Three Person Ballot" was accomplished in full compliance with the Constitutional Charter, under the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, I'm sure. The intent of reconstituting the Candidates List is an effort to confuse the process, in the middle of an election process. The act of the Patriarchate's rejection of the "Three Person Ballot" was a rude smack at the holy hierarchs of the Holy Archdiocese of America, and the Reverend Clergy who were properly elected to the "Three Person Ballot."

His All Holiness should not forget that the matter of hierarchical elections were the most hotly debated clauses of the revised Constitutional Charter in 2000 and 2001. The settlement clause, proposed by Archbishop Demetrios, specifically stated that the current (and past) practice was to elect the candidate who secured the highest number of votes from the Eparchial Synod.

May God continue to inspire Archbishop Demetrios in his primacial responsibilities on behalf of the clergy and faithful of the Holy Archdiocese of America, and may the Ecumenical Patriarchate be enlightened to appreciate the position they have placed upon its Senior (Geron) Archdiocese of America, which is such a loyal daughter to the Mother Church and desires to remain within the loving embrace of the Ecumenical Throne. His Eminence has been an Orthodox primate par excellence, never interfering into the internal affairs of the Holy Metropolises, while coordinating the "matters of common concern." He brought peace and progress to the American Archdiocese upon his enthronement from the substantial turmoil he inherited from his predecessor, which was caused by a wrong-headed Archepiscopal election of the Ecumenical Throne in 1996.


                                   "Demetrios, the Most Reverend and God-chosen Archbishop
                                   of the Holy Archdiocese of America,
                                   Primate and Exarch of the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans,
                                   our spiritual Father and hierarch,
                                   Many Years!"

This is just a yes or no question. Do you have independent information about what occurred at the Synod of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese? I got the notion from you that Theodore Kalmoukos at the  National Herald is a yellow journalist whose posts need to be taken with a grain of salt (if this is the correct expression). I may have mis-remembered, but that is what I came away with from a prior post of yours.

"Mi tío es enfermo, pero la carretera es verde!" - old Chilean saying

Offline Basil 320

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #111 on: August 06, 2017, 06:44:47 AM »
Yes, several sources aside from Mr. Kalmoukos. See also the Orthodox Christian Laity (OCL) website. I also have spoken with several priests, including one of the most prominent in GOArch, about this matter.

I have mentioned that Kalmoukos writes "Yellow Journalism," but he often intermingles it with facts. "The National Herald," for which he writes, is a good source of information because the official organs of the Holy Archdiocese are not known to report or be explicit about news that is not necessarily what it intends to promote.

There are no absolutes in reporting news and information.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 06:45:46 AM by Basil 320 »
"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #112 on: August 06, 2017, 01:47:01 PM »
Yes, several sources aside from Mr. Kalmoukos. See also the Orthodox Christian Laity (OCL) website. I also have spoken with several priests, including one of the most prominent in GOArch, about this matter.

I have mentioned that Kalmoukos writes "Yellow Journalism," but he often intermingles it with facts. "The National Herald," for which he writes, is a good source of information because the official organs of the Holy Archdiocese are not known to report or be explicit about news that is not necessarily what it intends to promote.

There are no absolutes in reporting news and information.

I'm sure you know, but in case others don't -- this org is a project to manipulate and disgrace the Church by a Greek billionaire. Shameful.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #113 on: August 06, 2017, 01:47:59 PM »
I have mentioned that Kalmoukos writes "Yellow Journalism," but he often intermingles it with facts. "The National Herald," for which he writes, is a good source of information because the official organs of the Holy Archdiocese are not known to report or be explicit about news that is not necessarily what it intends to promote.

Do you have any idea how tortured this logic is?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #114 on: August 09, 2017, 10:02:58 PM »
I have mentioned that Kalmoukos writes "Yellow Journalism," but he often intermingles it with facts. "The National Herald," for which he writes, is a good source of information because the official organs of the Holy Archdiocese are not known to report or be explicit about news that is not necessarily what it intends to promote.

Do you have any idea how tortured this logic is?
A life long Greek, I'm sure he does.

It's called "Byzantine" for a reason.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 10:03:36 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Gunnarr

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #115 on: August 15, 2017, 05:57:19 PM »
So, what is actually happening as of now?

I am a demonic servant! Beware!

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #116 on: August 15, 2017, 06:02:07 PM »
So, what is actually happening as of now?

The Holy Spirit is at work.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #117 on: August 16, 2017, 01:22:43 AM »
So, what is actually happening as of now?

The Holy Spirit is at work.
Many Years to Archbishop Demetrios! Axios!
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #118 on: August 27, 2017, 11:11:00 AM »
Any news?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline scamandrius

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #119 on: August 27, 2017, 03:26:21 PM »
Any news?

I was wondering the same thing.
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline Iconodule

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« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 07:55:52 AM by Iconodule »
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline RobS

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #121 on: August 28, 2017, 09:01:28 AM »
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #122 on: August 28, 2017, 09:08:19 AM »
Just announced: Archbishop Demetrios says, in light of "intolerable micromanagement" from Istanbul, talks are underway with the OCA synod for a possible merger.
Nice, I clicked the link on my phone and my volume was set at 100% speakerphone around a bunch of people.
I was just talking about this song with my son yesterday.

Meanwhile the cathedra on La Salle (not the OCA's) remains empty...
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 09:14:01 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #123 on: September 15, 2017, 10:28:04 PM »
How are you coping with what OC.net claims is a division between the Archdiocese and the Patriarchate (the issue of the Chicago metropolitanate), since I know in the past you've posted expressions of acute distaste for both? Is it tearing you apart to decide which camp you have to like now?
claims? Is there a Metropolitan?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #124 on: September 15, 2017, 10:37:49 PM »
Just announced: Archbishop Demetrios says, in light of "intolerable micromanagement" from Istanbul, talks are underway with the OCA synod for a possible merger.
Nice, I clicked the link on my phone and my volume was set at 100% speakerphone around a bunch of people.
I was just talking about this song with my son yesterday.

Meanwhile the cathedra on La Salle (not the OCA's) remains empty...

"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #125 on: September 16, 2017, 12:21:31 AM »
Just announced: Archbishop Demetrios says, in light of "intolerable micromanagement" from Istanbul, talks are underway with the OCA synod for a possible merger.
Nice, I clicked the link on my phone and my volume was set at 100% speakerphone around a bunch of people.
I was just talking about this song with my son yesterday.

Meanwhile the cathedra on La Salle (not the OCA's) remains empty...


yes, flew right over your head.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline scamandrius

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #126 on: September 16, 2017, 12:24:45 AM »
Just announced: Archbishop Demetrios says, in light of "intolerable micromanagement" from Istanbul, talks are underway with the OCA synod for a possible merger.
Nice, I clicked the link on my phone and my volume was set at 100% speakerphone around a bunch of people.
I was just talking about this song with my son yesterday.

Meanwhile the cathedra on La Salle (not the OCA's) remains empty...



You see, a cathedra is the seat of the Bishop or Metropolitan usually in a cathedral.  Chicago has no Metropolitan and therefore the cathedra is unoccupied or empty.  Or is the fact that there is no Metropolitan for the Chicago Metropolis not really a cause for concern now 3 months since Met. IAKOVOS' repose?
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #127 on: September 16, 2017, 12:32:25 AM »
You boys are going to be in tears when this all turns out to be non-news and Chicago and the GOARCH and the EP carry on as swimmingly as ever.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #128 on: September 16, 2017, 12:40:32 AM »
You boys are going to be in tears when this all turns out to be non-news and Chicago and the GOARCH and the EP carry on as swimmingly as ever.
you misspelled "drowning."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #129 on: September 16, 2017, 12:55:21 AM »
The Phanar imposed charter says "no later than forty (40) days...."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline scamandrius

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #130 on: September 16, 2017, 10:57:32 AM »
You boys are going to be in tears when this all turns out to be non-news and Chicago and the GOARCH and the EP carry on as swimmingly as ever.

How is it non-news that the Metropolis of Chicago does not have a Meyropolitan after more than three months without one? 
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #131 on: September 16, 2017, 01:56:54 PM »
You boys are going to be in tears when this all turns out to be non-news and Chicago and the GOARCH and the EP carry on as swimmingly as ever.

How is it non-news that the Metropolis of Chicago does not have a Meyropolitan after more than three months without one?

Obviously there's been news. What there won't be is the news that the EP has been cast out and the GOARCH had kissed the ring of OCA, as you fine gentlemen so giddily anticipate.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #132 on: September 16, 2017, 06:00:48 PM »
You boys are going to be in tears when this all turns out to be non-news and Chicago and the GOARCH and the EP carry on as swimmingly as ever.

How is it non-news that the Metropolis of Chicago does not have a Meyropolitan after more than three months without one?

Obviously there's been news. What there won't be is the news that the EP has been cast out and the GOARCH had kissed the ring of OCA, as you fine gentlemen so giddily anticipate.
projecting your fears I see.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline hecma925

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Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #134 on: September 17, 2017, 11:39:47 PM »
Quote from: Nun M.
The dread Pantocrator...is also "Christouli mou", (my little Christ), who really listens when you run in to your neighborhood church on the way to work to cry and light a candle because your daughter is in trouble at school. The untouchable and all-holy Mother of God is also "Panayitsa mou", who really will take your part before the court of heaven because, just like your own mom, she’ll always stick up for her children, no matter how badly they’ve behaved.

Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #135 on: September 17, 2017, 11:46:57 PM »
Anyway, if you want real news, apparently there was fake news that His Eminence Archbishop Demetrios had been asked to resign and the Archdiocese had to put out a statement:
https://www.goarch.org/-/announcement-of-the-greek-orthodox-archdiocese
Quote from: Nun M.
The dread Pantocrator...is also "Christouli mou", (my little Christ), who really listens when you run in to your neighborhood church on the way to work to cry and light a candle because your daughter is in trouble at school. The untouchable and all-holy Mother of God is also "Panayitsa mou", who really will take your part before the court of heaven because, just like your own mom, she’ll always stick up for her children, no matter how badly they’ve behaved.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #136 on: September 28, 2017, 08:18:02 PM »
Anyway, if you want real news, apparently there was fake news that His Eminence Archbishop Demetrios had been asked to resign and the Archdiocese had to put out a statement:
https://www.goarch.org/-/announcement-of-the-greek-orthodox-archdiocese

For shame. The editors of these "Orthodox" tabloids must be without conscience.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #137 on: September 29, 2017, 01:55:14 AM »
Anyway, if you want real news, apparently there was fake news that His Eminence Archbishop Demetrios had been asked to resign and the Archdiocese had to put out a statement:
https://www.goarch.org/-/announcement-of-the-greek-orthodox-archdiocese

For shame. The editors of these "Orthodox" tabloids must be without conscience.
and the Greek Metropolis of Chicago continues to be without a metropolitan...

A shame we don't know (yet) if that news was fake at all...
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline scamandrius

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #138 on: September 29, 2017, 02:23:51 PM »
Anyway, if you want real news, apparently there was fake news that His Eminence Archbishop Demetrios had been asked to resign and the Archdiocese had to put out a statement:
https://www.goarch.org/-/announcement-of-the-greek-orthodox-archdiocese

For shame. The editors of these "Orthodox" tabloids must be without conscience.
and the Greek Metropolis of Chicago continues to be without a metropolitan...



Nearly 4 months vacant now.  But, there's nothing to see and no problem.
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline Antonis

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #139 on: September 29, 2017, 02:47:24 PM »
Anyway, if you want real news, apparently there was fake news that His Eminence Archbishop Demetrios had been asked to resign and the Archdiocese had to put out a statement:
https://www.goarch.org/-/announcement-of-the-greek-orthodox-archdiocese

For shame. The editors of these "Orthodox" tabloids must be without conscience.
and the Greek Metropolis of Chicago continues to be without a metropolitan...



Nearly 4 months vacant now.  But, there's nothing to see and no problem.
For better or for worse, 4 months is not atypical for an episcopal vacancy. Modest, even, for America.
Somewhere on Athos, Antonis groans, and the skulls of the holy brethren with him!

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #140 on: October 01, 2017, 09:56:48 PM »
Anyway, if you want real news, apparently there was fake news that His Eminence Archbishop Demetrios had been asked to resign and the Archdiocese had to put out a statement:
https://www.goarch.org/-/announcement-of-the-greek-orthodox-archdiocese

For shame. The editors of these "Orthodox" tabloids must be without conscience.
and the Greek Metropolis of Chicago continues to be without a metropolitan...



Nearly 4 months vacant now.  But, there's nothing to see and no problem.
For better or for worse, 4 months is not atypical for an episcopal vacancy. Modest, even, for America.
not when the candidates have been put forward for months.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Antonis

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #141 on: October 02, 2017, 12:17:47 AM »
Anyway, if you want real news, apparently there was fake news that His Eminence Archbishop Demetrios had been asked to resign and the Archdiocese had to put out a statement:
https://www.goarch.org/-/announcement-of-the-greek-orthodox-archdiocese

For shame. The editors of these "Orthodox" tabloids must be without conscience.
and the Greek Metropolis of Chicago continues to be without a metropolitan...



Nearly 4 months vacant now.  But, there's nothing to see and no problem.
For better or for worse, 4 months is not atypical for an episcopal vacancy. Modest, even, for America.
not when the candidates have been put forward for months.
They should've done it informally, like the OCA Diocese of the South.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 12:18:16 AM by Antonis »
Somewhere on Athos, Antonis groans, and the skulls of the holy brethren with him!

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #142 on: October 02, 2017, 10:53:55 PM »
Anyway, if you want real news, apparently there was fake news that His Eminence Archbishop Demetrios had been asked to resign and the Archdiocese had to put out a statement:
https://www.goarch.org/-/announcement-of-the-greek-orthodox-archdiocese

For shame. The editors of these "Orthodox" tabloids must be without conscience.
and the Greek Metropolis of Chicago continues to be without a metropolitan...



Nearly 4 months vacant now.  But, there's nothing to see and no problem.
For better or for worse, 4 months is not atypical for an episcopal vacancy. Modest, even, for America.
not when the candidates have been put forward for months.
They should've done it informally, like the OCA Diocese of the South.  ;)
They have to do it informally: once done formally, it's done. No going overseas to foreign primates to see if the selection fits the agenda far away....
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth