Author Topic: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis  (Read 4777 times)

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Offline ICXCNIKA

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EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« on: July 13, 2017, 06:56:40 PM »
I didn't see a thread for this. These 2 articles were on byztex and I am interested in what people think.

http://byztex.blogspot.com/2017/07/ep-rejects-list-of-candidates-to-head.html

http://byztex.blogspot.com/2017/07/more-on-eps-rejection-of-candidate-list.html

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2017, 07:05:00 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 07:05:50 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2017, 07:06:09 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals.

What is the next step? Does the GOAA submit another list of 3 different people?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 07:07:05 PM by ICXCNIKA »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2017, 07:09:10 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals.

What is the next step? Does the GOAA submit another list of 3 different people?

Something like that. It's not important. There will be a hierarch in Chicago.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2017, 07:53:48 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals.

What is the next step? Does the GOAA submit another list of 3 different people?

Something like that. It's not important. There will be a hierarch in Chicago.
There already is a hierarch in Chicago.

And yes, it is VERY important.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2017, 08:19:45 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals.

What is the next step? Does the GOAA submit another list of 3 different people?

Something like that. It's not important. There will be a hierarch in Chicago.
There already is a hierarch in Chicago.

And yes, it is VERY important.

Really? The precise details by which hierarchs go about their business is "VERY important" to you? I can't imagine the hubris it would take for me to feel that way, as a layman.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline scamandrius

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2017, 08:59:53 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.

1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 

2.  But, in the entire history where the Synod was tasked with naming a successor, this move of rejecting all three names is unprecedented which is not to say that the EP doesn't have that right (it does), but a move like this has many speculating as to why this is happening now especially for such an important Metropolis like Chicago.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 09:01:00 PM by scamandrius »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2017, 09:03:49 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.

1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 

My Metropolitan had asked for further consideration.

Quote
2.  But, in the entire history where the Synod was tasked with naming a successor, this move of rejecting all three names is unprecedented which is not to say that the EP doesn't have that right (it does), but a move like this has many speculating as to why this is happening now especially for such an important Metropolis like Chicago.

I doubt it's unprecedented.

If he had rejected one or two particular candidates, then he would be doing more than just resetting the procedure. He'd be picking, and that's not what this is about in spite of the cynical critics always looking for scandal and schism, which is against the Gospel.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2017, 09:27:20 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.

1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 

My Metropolitan had asked for further consideration.

Your Metropolitan wanted one particular candidate and, so it would seem, only that one.  Otherwise, everyone seemed on board with Bp Sevastianos.   

Quote
Quote
2.  But, in the entire history where the Synod was tasked with naming a successor, this move of rejecting all three names is unprecedented which is not to say that the EP doesn't have that right (it does), but a move like this has many speculating as to why this is happening now especially for such an important Metropolis like Chicago.

I doubt it's unprecedented.

If he had rejected one or two particular candidates, then he would be doing more than just resetting the procedure. He'd be picking, and that's not what this is about in spite of the cynical critics always looking for scandal and schism, which is against the Gospel.

According to this report, the Patriarchate approved the list from which they chose the three finalists in March.  The reason for "rebooting the process" (to use your expression) at this time was because the list was not comprehensive enough. 

Something doesn't smell right.   
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2017, 09:40:00 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.

1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 

My Metropolitan had asked for further consideration.

Your Metropolitan wanted one particular candidate and, so it would seem, only that one.  Otherwise, everyone seemed on board with Bp Sevastianos.   

Quote
Quote
2.  But, in the entire history where the Synod was tasked with naming a successor, this move of rejecting all three names is unprecedented which is not to say that the EP doesn't have that right (it does), but a move like this has many speculating as to why this is happening now especially for such an important Metropolis like Chicago.

I doubt it's unprecedented.

If he had rejected one or two particular candidates, then he would be doing more than just resetting the procedure. He'd be picking, and that's not what this is about in spite of the cynical critics always looking for scandal and schism, which is against the Gospel.

According to this report, the Patriarchate approved the list from which they chose the three finalists in March.  The reason for "rebooting the process" (to use your expression) at this time was because the list was not comprehensive enough. 

Something doesn't smell right.   

The first author seems to hope this is a break between the Archdiocese and the Patriarch. You seem to think this is a portion of the Archdiocese pulling the Patriarch's strings. If something's bad but nobody can agree on the bad guy, then maybe it isn't so bad. But why are some of you bent on making this anything bad, in the first place -- why can't it just be a process of brethren finding harmony? If we "smell" around cynically for scandal isn't healthy for us or the bishops. I really don't understand. I'm really disappointed.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2017, 09:45:03 PM »
Ok, so if the GOAA resubmits another 3 names that don't include those the Phanar really wants haw long will this go on? Can the EP bypass the local synod (not sure if that is the right term) and elect whoever they want? Or do they need to elect a name from a submitted list?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 09:48:31 PM by ICXCNIKA »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2017, 10:00:04 PM »
Ok, so if the GOAA resubmits another 3 names that don't include those the Phanar really wants haw long will this go on?

Pure speculation on your part. No repetition of the sort has happened or has been signalled. You're stirring mud.

Quote
Can the EP bypass the local synod (not sure if that is the right term) and elect whoever they want?

How would that be an "election."

Quote
Or do they need to elect a name from a submitted list?

The Patriarch doesn't do the electing at all. Fascinating how ill-informed you are of the process, yet quick to besmear your spiritual superiors.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2017, 10:03:04 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.

1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 

My Metropolitan had asked for further consideration.

Your Metropolitan wanted one particular candidate and, so it would seem, only that one.  Otherwise, everyone seemed on board with Bp Sevastianos.   

Quote
Quote
2.  But, in the entire history where the Synod was tasked with naming a successor, this move of rejecting all three names is unprecedented which is not to say that the EP doesn't have that right (it does), but a move like this has many speculating as to why this is happening now especially for such an important Metropolis like Chicago.

I doubt it's unprecedented.

If he had rejected one or two particular candidates, then he would be doing more than just resetting the procedure. He'd be picking, and that's not what this is about in spite of the cynical critics always looking for scandal and schism, which is against the Gospel.

According to this report, the Patriarchate approved the list from which they chose the three finalists in March.  The reason for "rebooting the process" (to use your expression) at this time was because the list was not comprehensive enough. 

Something doesn't smell right.   

The first author seems to hope this is a break between the Archdiocese and the Patriarch. You seem to think this is a portion of the Archdiocese pulling the Patriarch's strings. If something's bad but nobody can agree on the bad guy, then maybe it isn't so bad. But why are some of you bent on making this anything bad, in the first place -- why can't it just be a process of brethren finding harmony? If we "smell" around cynically for scandal isn't healthy for us or the bishops. I really don't understand. I'm really disappointed.

I wish the Church operated in the ideal fashion you seem desperately to want it to operate, but unfortunately it's not always so.  "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us" can get messy because of that pesky "us".  Ultimately we trust the system, but accepting that reality need not be cynicism or scandalmongering.  It can also be being "wise as serpents".  And sometimes "us" have a point.  "Us" have saved the Church from time to time when bishops were trying to kill her. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2017, 10:08:05 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.

1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 

My Metropolitan had asked for further consideration.

Your Metropolitan wanted one particular candidate and, so it would seem, only that one.  Otherwise, everyone seemed on board with Bp Sevastianos.   

Quote
Quote
2.  But, in the entire history where the Synod was tasked with naming a successor, this move of rejecting all three names is unprecedented which is not to say that the EP doesn't have that right (it does), but a move like this has many speculating as to why this is happening now especially for such an important Metropolis like Chicago.

I doubt it's unprecedented.

If he had rejected one or two particular candidates, then he would be doing more than just resetting the procedure. He'd be picking, and that's not what this is about in spite of the cynical critics always looking for scandal and schism, which is against the Gospel.

According to this report, the Patriarchate approved the list from which they chose the three finalists in March.  The reason for "rebooting the process" (to use your expression) at this time was because the list was not comprehensive enough. 

Something doesn't smell right.   

The first author seems to hope this is a break between the Archdiocese and the Patriarch. You seem to think this is a portion of the Archdiocese pulling the Patriarch's strings. If something's bad but nobody can agree on the bad guy, then maybe it isn't so bad. But why are some of you bent on making this anything bad, in the first place -- why can't it just be a process of brethren finding harmony? If we "smell" around cynically for scandal isn't healthy for us or the bishops. I really don't understand. I'm really disappointed.

I wish the Church operated in the ideal fashion you seem desperately to want it to operate, but unfortunately it's not always so.  "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us" can get messy because of that pesky "us".  Ultimately we trust the system, but accepting that reality need not be cynicism or scandalmongering.  It can also be being "wise as serpents".  And sometimes "us" have a point.  "Us" have saved the Church from time to time when bishops were trying to kill her.

I'm sorry, but assuming the best of others and of our hierarchs isn't some dereliction of lay duty. If there is some actual pious need for confrontation, it will certainly be pressed upon us in a way we don't have to sniff out. Unless you are aware of a very obvious evil here, or, I suppose, of a long-standing pattern of a very obvious evil, then the excuse "We have to be on our toes" is just meddling. I understand there's a small tradition of gossip and politicking among Orthodox as among any other group, but I can't approve of it. Our energies should be toward harmony and mutual respect. There is no way the OCA is going to achieve the objectives her fans have for her unless there is such harmony and mutual respect already in play.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2017, 10:12:37 PM »
Ok, so if the GOAA resubmits another 3 names that don't include those the Phanar really wants haw long will this go on?

Pure speculation on your part. No repetition of the sort has happened or has been signalled. You're stirring mud.

Quote
Can the EP bypass the local synod (not sure if that is the right term) and elect whoever they want?

How would that be an "election."

Quote
Or do they need to elect a name from a submitted list?

The Patriarch doesn't do the electing at all. Fascinating how ill-informed you are of the process, yet quick to besmear your spiritual superiors.

1) yeah, it is pure speculation on my part since I looking for knowledgeable people to explain the process. Since you are not knowledgeable feel free to stay quite and swallow your hubris.

2) It would be an election of the Synod of Istanbul headed by your Patriarch. Or when they vote for a bishop does it cease to be an election?

3) you semi correct in that I am uninformed about the process hence why I started this thread.

4a) They are not my spiritual superiors. (b) Asking a question is not besmirching
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 10:17:28 PM by ICXCNIKA »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2017, 10:18:58 PM »
Ok, so if the GOAA resubmits another 3 names that don't include those the Phanar really wants haw long will this go on?

Pure speculation on your part. No repetition of the sort has happened or has been signalled. You're stirring mud.

Quote
Can the EP bypass the local synod (not sure if that is the right term) and elect whoever they want?

How would that be an "election."

Quote
Or do they need to elect a name from a submitted list?

The Patriarch doesn't do the electing at all. Fascinating how ill-informed you are of the process, yet quick to besmear your spiritual superiors.

1) yeah, it is pure speculation on my part since I looking for knowledgeable people to explain the process. Since you are not knowledgeable feel free to stay quite and choke on your hubris.

Good Christian sentiments!

Quote
2) It would be an election of the Synod of Istanbul headed by your Patriarch. Or when they vote for a bishop does it cease to be an election?

I have the imagination to see how such a thing could happen, but do you have any evidence at all that it would?

Quote
3) you semi correct in that I am uninformed about the process hence why I started this thread.

4a) They are not my spiritual superiors.

Then what's your jurisdiction and why are you compelled to question them?

Quote
(b) Asking a question is not besmirching unless you have something to hide from the light of day.

It depends on the questions, doesn't it? And I didn't read a lot of questions, certainly not ingenuous ones, in your articles.

Quote
(c)  And I have stepped in things that would qualify as your spiritual superior.

At least you're now being open with your hatred and contempt for the Orthodox episcopate.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2017, 10:27:03 PM »
Ok, so if the GOAA resubmits another 3 names that don't include those the Phanar really wants haw long will this go on?

Pure speculation on your part. No repetition of the sort has happened or has been signalled. You're stirring mud.

Quote
Can the EP bypass the local synod (not sure if that is the right term) and elect whoever they want?

How would that be an "election."

Quote
Or do they need to elect a name from a submitted list?

The Patriarch doesn't do the electing at all. Fascinating how ill-informed you are of the process, yet quick to besmear your spiritual superiors.

1) yeah, it is pure speculation on my part since I looking for knowledgeable people to explain the process. Since you are not knowledgeable feel free to stay quite and choke on your hubris.

Good Christian sentiments!

Quote
2) It would be an election of the Synod of Istanbul headed by your Patriarch. Or when they vote for a bishop does it cease to be an election?

I have the imagination to see how such a thing could happen, but do you have any evidence at all that it would?

Quote
3) you semi correct in that I am uninformed about the process hence why I started this thread.

4a) They are not my spiritual superiors.

Then what's your jurisdiction and why are you compelled to question them?

Quote
(b) Asking a question is not besmirching unless you have something to hide from the light of day.

It depends on the questions, doesn't it? And I didn't read a lot of questions, certainly not ingenuous ones, in your articles.

Quote
(c)  And I have stepped in things that would qualify as your spiritual superior.

At least you're now being open with your hatred and contempt for the Orthodox episcopate.

My passions got the better of me for the moment. I have revised my statements and apologize. However, you have been trying to derail this thread from the beginning. You have nothing to contribute so go in peace. my contempt is for your holier than thou snarkiness. I am not sure your episcopate is Orthodox.  But that is a discussion for another time.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2017, 10:28:20 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.

1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 

My Metropolitan had asked for further consideration.

Your Metropolitan wanted one particular candidate and, so it would seem, only that one.  Otherwise, everyone seemed on board with Bp Sevastianos.   

Quote
Quote
2.  But, in the entire history where the Synod was tasked with naming a successor, this move of rejecting all three names is unprecedented which is not to say that the EP doesn't have that right (it does), but a move like this has many speculating as to why this is happening now especially for such an important Metropolis like Chicago.

I doubt it's unprecedented.

If he had rejected one or two particular candidates, then he would be doing more than just resetting the procedure. He'd be picking, and that's not what this is about in spite of the cynical critics always looking for scandal and schism, which is against the Gospel.

According to this report, the Patriarchate approved the list from which they chose the three finalists in March.  The reason for "rebooting the process" (to use your expression) at this time was because the list was not comprehensive enough. 

Something doesn't smell right.   

The first author seems to hope this is a break between the Archdiocese and the Patriarch. You seem to think this is a portion of the Archdiocese pulling the Patriarch's strings. If something's bad but nobody can agree on the bad guy, then maybe it isn't so bad. But why are some of you bent on making this anything bad, in the first place -- why can't it just be a process of brethren finding harmony? If we "smell" around cynically for scandal isn't healthy for us or the bishops. I really don't understand. I'm really disappointed.

I wish the Church operated in the ideal fashion you seem desperately to want it to operate, but unfortunately it's not always so.  "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us" can get messy because of that pesky "us".  Ultimately we trust the system, but accepting that reality need not be cynicism or scandalmongering.  It can also be being "wise as serpents".  And sometimes "us" have a point.  "Us" have saved the Church from time to time when bishops were trying to kill her.

I'm sorry, but assuming the best of others and of our hierarchs isn't some dereliction of lay duty. If there is some actual pious need for confrontation, it will certainly be pressed upon us in a way we don't have to sniff out. Unless you are aware of a very obvious evil here, or, I suppose, of a long-standing pattern of a very obvious evil, then the excuse "We have to be on our toes" is just meddling. I understand there's a small tradition of gossip and politicking among Orthodox as among any other group, but I can't approve of it. Our energies should be toward harmony and mutual respect. There is no way the OCA is going to achieve the objectives her fans have for her unless there is such harmony and mutual respect already in play.

I never held up the OCA as a model to follow in this thread.  When you throw non-jurisdiction-of-Porter jurisdictions under the bus so easily while condemning questioning of jurisdiction-of-Porter issues as some sort of impious devilry, it becomes too much to take seriously.

You are right to say that "assuming the best of others...isn't some dereliction of duty".  The rest of your post is just based on lack of experience. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2017, 10:30:16 PM »
My passions got the better of me for the moment. I have revised my statements and apologize. However, you have been trying to derail this thread from the beginning. You have nothing to contribute so go in peace. my contempt is for your holier than thou snarkiness. I am not sure your episcopate is Orthodox.  But that is a discussion for another time.

So you expect to molest a canonical archdiocese without any protestation at all? I'm glad I could end that dream. And if you in fact have no ties to us and doubt our canonicity, then it would make sense if you were the one to butt out.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 10:30:39 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2017, 10:30:40 PM »
1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 
The 2nd story http://byztex.blogspot.com/2017/07/more-on-eps-rejection-of-candidate-list.html cites an anonymous GOAA source:
Quote
He went on to say that many people throughout the country and in and around Chicago “had serious reservations about Bishop Sebastian’s stamina, capabilities and experience to handle such a prodigious and complex position like head of the Chicago Metropolis, given his limited administrative experience and his limited English language skills.”
Of course there's no guarantee that Anonymous Source Alpha is telling the truth, but it's my opinion that knowing English well might be just a tad important for a Metropolitan in the USA in 2017.
Quote from: Nun M.
The dread Pantocrator...is also "Christouli mou", (my little Christ), who really listens when you run in to your neighborhood church on the way to work to cry and light a candle because your daughter is in trouble at school. The untouchable and all-holy Mother of God is also "Panayitsa mou", who really will take your part before the court of heaven because, just like your own mom, she’ll always stick up for her children, no matter how badly they’ve behaved.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2017, 10:32:59 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.

1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 

My Metropolitan had asked for further consideration.

Your Metropolitan wanted one particular candidate and, so it would seem, only that one.  Otherwise, everyone seemed on board with Bp Sevastianos.   

Quote
Quote
2.  But, in the entire history where the Synod was tasked with naming a successor, this move of rejecting all three names is unprecedented which is not to say that the EP doesn't have that right (it does), but a move like this has many speculating as to why this is happening now especially for such an important Metropolis like Chicago.

I doubt it's unprecedented.

If he had rejected one or two particular candidates, then he would be doing more than just resetting the procedure. He'd be picking, and that's not what this is about in spite of the cynical critics always looking for scandal and schism, which is against the Gospel.

According to this report, the Patriarchate approved the list from which they chose the three finalists in March.  The reason for "rebooting the process" (to use your expression) at this time was because the list was not comprehensive enough. 

Something doesn't smell right.   

The first author seems to hope this is a break between the Archdiocese and the Patriarch. You seem to think this is a portion of the Archdiocese pulling the Patriarch's strings. If something's bad but nobody can agree on the bad guy, then maybe it isn't so bad. But why are some of you bent on making this anything bad, in the first place -- why can't it just be a process of brethren finding harmony? If we "smell" around cynically for scandal isn't healthy for us or the bishops. I really don't understand. I'm really disappointed.

I wish the Church operated in the ideal fashion you seem desperately to want it to operate, but unfortunately it's not always so.  "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us" can get messy because of that pesky "us".  Ultimately we trust the system, but accepting that reality need not be cynicism or scandalmongering.  It can also be being "wise as serpents".  And sometimes "us" have a point.  "Us" have saved the Church from time to time when bishops were trying to kill her.

I'm sorry, but assuming the best of others and of our hierarchs isn't some dereliction of lay duty. If there is some actual pious need for confrontation, it will certainly be pressed upon us in a way we don't have to sniff out. Unless you are aware of a very obvious evil here, or, I suppose, of a long-standing pattern of a very obvious evil, then the excuse "We have to be on our toes" is just meddling. I understand there's a small tradition of gossip and politicking among Orthodox as among any other group, but I can't approve of it. Our energies should be toward harmony and mutual respect. There is no way the OCA is going to achieve the objectives her fans have for her unless there is such harmony and mutual respect already in play.

I never held up the OCA as a model to follow in this thread.  When you throw non-jurisdiction-of-Porter jurisdictions under the bus so easily while condemning questioning of jurisdiction-of-Porter issues as some sort of impious devilry, it becomes too much to take seriously.

You are right to say that "assuming the best of others...isn't some dereliction of duty".  The rest of your post is just based on lack of experience.

I have no problems with the OCA. I love her hierarchs as much as my own. It's simply a trend of OC.net that the OCA's fans attack her supposed rival in all sorts of ways as tho that could strengthen their hopes for her -- it won't.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2017, 10:33:04 PM »
1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 
The 2nd story http://byztex.blogspot.com/2017/07/more-on-eps-rejection-of-candidate-list.html cites an anonymous GOAA source:
Quote
He went on to say that many people throughout the country and in and around Chicago “had serious reservations about Bishop Sebastian’s stamina, capabilities and experience to handle such a prodigious and complex position like head of the Chicago Metropolis, given his limited administrative experience and his limited English language skills.”
Of course there's no guarantee that Anonymous Source Alpha is telling the truth, but it's my opinion that knowing English well might be just a tad important for a Metropolitan in the USA in 2017.

It would be very curious if the Patriarchate had more of a sensitivity to the need for a Metropolitan of Chicago to know English than the Archdiocese of America. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2017, 10:35:06 PM »
1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 
The 2nd story http://byztex.blogspot.com/2017/07/more-on-eps-rejection-of-candidate-list.html cites an anonymous GOAA source:
Quote
He went on to say that many people throughout the country and in and around Chicago “had serious reservations about Bishop Sebastian’s stamina, capabilities and experience to handle such a prodigious and complex position like head of the Chicago Metropolis, given his limited administrative experience and his limited English language skills.”
Of course there's no guarantee that Anonymous Source Alpha is telling the truth, but it's my opinion that knowing English well might be just a tad important for a Metropolitan in the USA in 2017.

It would be very curious if the Patriarchate had more of a sensitivity to the need for a Metropolitan of Chicago to know English than the Archdiocese of America.

There's no battle between His Beatitude and His All Holiness. That's just an unpleasant assumption.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2017, 10:36:36 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.

1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 

My Metropolitan had asked for further consideration.

Your Metropolitan wanted one particular candidate and, so it would seem, only that one.  Otherwise, everyone seemed on board with Bp Sevastianos.   

Quote
Quote
2.  But, in the entire history where the Synod was tasked with naming a successor, this move of rejecting all three names is unprecedented which is not to say that the EP doesn't have that right (it does), but a move like this has many speculating as to why this is happening now especially for such an important Metropolis like Chicago.

I doubt it's unprecedented.

If he had rejected one or two particular candidates, then he would be doing more than just resetting the procedure. He'd be picking, and that's not what this is about in spite of the cynical critics always looking for scandal and schism, which is against the Gospel.

According to this report, the Patriarchate approved the list from which they chose the three finalists in March.  The reason for "rebooting the process" (to use your expression) at this time was because the list was not comprehensive enough. 

Something doesn't smell right.   

The first author seems to hope this is a break between the Archdiocese and the Patriarch. You seem to think this is a portion of the Archdiocese pulling the Patriarch's strings. If something's bad but nobody can agree on the bad guy, then maybe it isn't so bad. But why are some of you bent on making this anything bad, in the first place -- why can't it just be a process of brethren finding harmony? If we "smell" around cynically for scandal isn't healthy for us or the bishops. I really don't understand. I'm really disappointed.

I wish the Church operated in the ideal fashion you seem desperately to want it to operate, but unfortunately it's not always so.  "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us" can get messy because of that pesky "us".  Ultimately we trust the system, but accepting that reality need not be cynicism or scandalmongering.  It can also be being "wise as serpents".  And sometimes "us" have a point.  "Us" have saved the Church from time to time when bishops were trying to kill her.

I'm sorry, but assuming the best of others and of our hierarchs isn't some dereliction of lay duty. If there is some actual pious need for confrontation, it will certainly be pressed upon us in a way we don't have to sniff out. Unless you are aware of a very obvious evil here, or, I suppose, of a long-standing pattern of a very obvious evil, then the excuse "We have to be on our toes" is just meddling. I understand there's a small tradition of gossip and politicking among Orthodox as among any other group, but I can't approve of it. Our energies should be toward harmony and mutual respect. There is no way the OCA is going to achieve the objectives her fans have for her unless there is such harmony and mutual respect already in play.

I never held up the OCA as a model to follow in this thread.  When you throw non-jurisdiction-of-Porter jurisdictions under the bus so easily while condemning questioning of jurisdiction-of-Porter issues as some sort of impious devilry, it becomes too much to take seriously.

You are right to say that "assuming the best of others...isn't some dereliction of duty".  The rest of your post is just based on lack of experience.

I have no problems with the OCA. I love her hierarchs as much as my own. It's simply a trend of OC.net that the OCA's fans attack her supposed rival in all sorts of ways as tho that could strengthen their hopes for her -- it won't.

But why bring up the OCA?
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2017, 10:38:20 PM »
1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 
The 2nd story http://byztex.blogspot.com/2017/07/more-on-eps-rejection-of-candidate-list.html cites an anonymous GOAA source:
Quote
He went on to say that many people throughout the country and in and around Chicago “had serious reservations about Bishop Sebastian’s stamina, capabilities and experience to handle such a prodigious and complex position like head of the Chicago Metropolis, given his limited administrative experience and his limited English language skills.”
Of course there's no guarantee that Anonymous Source Alpha is telling the truth, but it's my opinion that knowing English well might be just a tad important for a Metropolitan in the USA in 2017.

It would be very curious if the Patriarchate had more of a sensitivity to the need for a Metropolitan of Chicago to know English than the Archdiocese of America.

There's no battle between His Beatitude and His All Holiness. That's just an unpleasant assumption.

There is no "His Beatitude" in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.  And I never suggested a battle between that imaginary figure and the EP. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2017, 10:38:50 PM »
My passions got the better of me for the moment. I have revised my statements and apologize. However, you have been trying to derail this thread from the beginning. You have nothing to contribute so go in peace. my contempt is for your holier than thou snarkiness. I am not sure your episcopate is Orthodox.  But that is a discussion for another time.

So you expect to molest a canonical archdiocese without any protestation at all? I'm glad I could end that dream. And if you in fact have no ties to us and doubt our canonicity, then it would make sense if you were the one to butt out.

1) you got issues
2) I have never molested anything or anyone. Unlike you, I am here to learn. I am not here to sling mud as you seem to think.
3) I am a member of a Canonical Church which your church is in union with. So you said your peace now please constuctively contribute to the thread or please go.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 10:39:27 PM by ICXCNIKA »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2017, 10:39:31 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.

1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 

My Metropolitan had asked for further consideration.

Your Metropolitan wanted one particular candidate and, so it would seem, only that one.  Otherwise, everyone seemed on board with Bp Sevastianos.   

Quote
Quote
2.  But, in the entire history where the Synod was tasked with naming a successor, this move of rejecting all three names is unprecedented which is not to say that the EP doesn't have that right (it does), but a move like this has many speculating as to why this is happening now especially for such an important Metropolis like Chicago.

I doubt it's unprecedented.

If he had rejected one or two particular candidates, then he would be doing more than just resetting the procedure. He'd be picking, and that's not what this is about in spite of the cynical critics always looking for scandal and schism, which is against the Gospel.

According to this report, the Patriarchate approved the list from which they chose the three finalists in March.  The reason for "rebooting the process" (to use your expression) at this time was because the list was not comprehensive enough. 

Something doesn't smell right.   

The first author seems to hope this is a break between the Archdiocese and the Patriarch. You seem to think this is a portion of the Archdiocese pulling the Patriarch's strings. If something's bad but nobody can agree on the bad guy, then maybe it isn't so bad. But why are some of you bent on making this anything bad, in the first place -- why can't it just be a process of brethren finding harmony? If we "smell" around cynically for scandal isn't healthy for us or the bishops. I really don't understand. I'm really disappointed.

I wish the Church operated in the ideal fashion you seem desperately to want it to operate, but unfortunately it's not always so.  "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us" can get messy because of that pesky "us".  Ultimately we trust the system, but accepting that reality need not be cynicism or scandalmongering.  It can also be being "wise as serpents".  And sometimes "us" have a point.  "Us" have saved the Church from time to time when bishops were trying to kill her.

I'm sorry, but assuming the best of others and of our hierarchs isn't some dereliction of lay duty. If there is some actual pious need for confrontation, it will certainly be pressed upon us in a way we don't have to sniff out. Unless you are aware of a very obvious evil here, or, I suppose, of a long-standing pattern of a very obvious evil, then the excuse "We have to be on our toes" is just meddling. I understand there's a small tradition of gossip and politicking among Orthodox as among any other group, but I can't approve of it. Our energies should be toward harmony and mutual respect. There is no way the OCA is going to achieve the objectives her fans have for her unless there is such harmony and mutual respect already in play.

I never held up the OCA as a model to follow in this thread.  When you throw non-jurisdiction-of-Porter jurisdictions under the bus so easily while condemning questioning of jurisdiction-of-Porter issues as some sort of impious devilry, it becomes too much to take seriously.

You are right to say that "assuming the best of others...isn't some dereliction of duty".  The rest of your post is just based on lack of experience.

I have no problems with the OCA. I love her hierarchs as much as my own. It's simply a trend of OC.net that the OCA's fans attack her supposed rival in all sorts of ways as tho that could strengthen their hopes for her -- it won't.

But why bring up the OCA?

I just said why. People attack my jurisdiction with the idea it strengthens their jurisdiction's claims to unify the faith here in America. And that's precisely wrong-headed. Obviously this is only one kind of motivation, but it's the prevalent one around here. I also imagine it has some bearing on your own reactions, now that I think of it, but then again, now that I think of it, that's probably not the case.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2017, 10:40:50 PM »
3) I am a member of a Canonical Church which your church is in union with. So you said your peace now please constuctively contribute to the thread or please go.

Then your statement here has even less excuse:

I am not sure your episcopate is Orthodox.  But that is a discussion for another time.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2017, 10:44:14 PM »
My passions got the better of me for the moment. I have revised my statements and apologize. However, you have been trying to derail this thread from the beginning. You have nothing to contribute so go in peace. my contempt is for your holier than thou snarkiness. I am not sure your episcopate is Orthodox.  But that is a discussion for another time.

So you expect to molest a canonical archdiocese without any protestation at all? I'm glad I could end that dream. And if you in fact have no ties to us and doubt our canonicity, then it would make sense if you were the one to butt out.

1) you got issues
2) I have never molested anything or anyone. Unlike you, I am here to learn. I am not here to sling mud as you seem to think.
3) I am a member of a Canonical Church which your church is in union with. So you said your peace now please constuctively contribute to the thread or please go.

I'm sorry you didn't get quite the anti-hierarchy party you were planning (altho never fear, I'm sure it's coming), but it would be too silly if you thought your disappointment gives you a right to decide what is posted from now on.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2017, 10:46:01 PM »
3) I am a member of a Canonical Church which your church is in union with. So you said your peace now please constuctively contribute to the thread or please go.

Then your statement here has even less excuse:

I am not sure your episcopate is Orthodox.  But that is a discussion for another time.

1) It doesn't need an excuse nor your pontifical seal of approval. 
2) I am here to understand the process. It sounds like you don't know the process so there really is nothing for you to respond to.

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2017, 10:47:42 PM »
My passions got the better of me for the moment. I have revised my statements and apologize. However, you have been trying to derail this thread from the beginning. You have nothing to contribute so go in peace. my contempt is for your holier than thou snarkiness. I am not sure your episcopate is Orthodox.  But that is a discussion for another time.

So you expect to molest a canonical archdiocese without any protestation at all? I'm glad I could end that dream. And if you in fact have no ties to us and doubt our canonicity, then it would make sense if you were the one to butt out.

1) you got issues
2) I have never molested anything or anyone. Unlike you, I am here to learn. I am not here to sling mud as you seem to think.
3) I am a member of a Canonical Church which your church is in union with. So you said your peace now please constuctively contribute to the thread or please go.

I'm sorry you didn't get quite the anti-hierarchy party you were planning (altho never fear, I'm sure it's coming), but it would be too silly if you thought your disappointment gives you a right to decide what is posted from now on.

LOL you can try to paint me as anti-hierachial if that floats your sordid little boat. You are not worth my time.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2017, 10:49:46 PM »
3) I am a member of a Canonical Church which your church is in union with. So you said your peace now please constuctively contribute to the thread or please go.

Then your statement here has even less excuse:

I am not sure your episcopate is Orthodox.  But that is a discussion for another time.

1) It doesn't need an excuse nor your pontifical seal of approval. 
2) I am here to understand the process. It sounds like you don't know the process so there really is nothing for you to respond to.

2) Your thread appeared to be here to hawk a couple of cynical articles from the Netodoxosphere.

And ( 1 ), yes, you do need to expect to be challenged as to why you're rejecting a branch of your own Church, how that could possibly be pious, if you bring it up.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2017, 10:57:36 PM »
Article 14
Election of a Metropolitan

a. In every regular meeting and in consultation with the Archdiocesan Council, the Eparchial Synod reviews and modifies, through additions and deletions, the list of those eligible for the office of Metropolitan. The Auxiliary Bishops are automatically included in this list by virtue of their office. The Eparchial Synod submits the list so completed to the Ecumenical Patriarchate for its approval. The list becomes definitive after its ratification by the Ecumenical Patriarchate and is then officially published by the Archdiocese.

b. Immediately following a vacancy in the See of a Metropolis, but no later than forty (40) days thereafter, the Archbishop convenes the Eparchial Synod in a timely fashion, for the purpose of nominating, after soliciting the opinion of the members of the Archdiocesan Council, three persons, out of whom one shall be elected to fill the vacancy of the Metropolis. The nominees are taken from the above mentioned list of those eligible, pursuant to the procedure provided for by the Regulations of the Eparchial Synod.

c. The list of three nominees thus established is submitted to the Ecumenical Patriarchate. According to the existing practice, the Holy and Sacred Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate elects one of the three as the new Metropolitan.

d. A nominee for the office of Metropolitan shall be a person of deep faith and ethos, a Greek Orthodox Christian, a graduate of an academically recognized and accredited Orthodox school of theology of the highest level, have a fluent knowledge of spoken and written English and Greek, and have a proven ability in administration and pastoral work. In addition, the nominee must have all the pertinent qualifications defined by the Holy Canons, shall not be less than thirty-five (35) years of age, and shall have had a period of sufficient service in the Archdiocese.

e. Those fulfilling the above conditions are candidates and are included in the list of eligible candidates regardless of the place of residence during the time of the election.

https://www.goarch.org/documents/charter

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2017, 11:13:12 PM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.

1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 

My Metropolitan had asked for further consideration.

Your Metropolitan wanted one particular candidate and, so it would seem, only that one.  Otherwise, everyone seemed on board with Bp Sevastianos.   

Quote
Quote
2.  But, in the entire history where the Synod was tasked with naming a successor, this move of rejecting all three names is unprecedented which is not to say that the EP doesn't have that right (it does), but a move like this has many speculating as to why this is happening now especially for such an important Metropolis like Chicago.

I doubt it's unprecedented.

If he had rejected one or two particular candidates, then he would be doing more than just resetting the procedure. He'd be picking, and that's not what this is about in spite of the cynical critics always looking for scandal and schism, which is against the Gospel.

According to this report, the Patriarchate approved the list from which they chose the three finalists in March.  The reason for "rebooting the process" (to use your expression) at this time was because the list was not comprehensive enough. 

Something doesn't smell right.   

The first author seems to hope this is a break between the Archdiocese and the Patriarch. You seem to think this is a portion of the Archdiocese pulling the Patriarch's strings. If something's bad but nobody can agree on the bad guy, then maybe it isn't so bad. But why are some of you bent on making this anything bad, in the first place -- why can't it just be a process of brethren finding harmony? If we "smell" around cynically for scandal isn't healthy for us or the bishops. I really don't understand. I'm really disappointed.

I wish the Church operated in the ideal fashion you seem desperately to want it to operate, but unfortunately it's not always so.  "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us" can get messy because of that pesky "us".  Ultimately we trust the system, but accepting that reality need not be cynicism or scandalmongering.  It can also be being "wise as serpents".  And sometimes "us" have a point.  "Us" have saved the Church from time to time when bishops were trying to kill her.

I'm sorry, but assuming the best of others and of our hierarchs isn't some dereliction of lay duty. If there is some actual pious need for confrontation, it will certainly be pressed upon us in a way we don't have to sniff out. Unless you are aware of a very obvious evil here, or, I suppose, of a long-standing pattern of a very obvious evil, then the excuse "We have to be on our toes" is just meddling. I understand there's a small tradition of gossip and politicking among Orthodox as among any other group, but I can't approve of it. Our energies should be toward harmony and mutual respect. There is no way the OCA is going to achieve the objectives her fans have for her unless there is such harmony and mutual respect already in play.

I never held up the OCA as a model to follow in this thread.  When you throw non-jurisdiction-of-Porter jurisdictions under the bus so easily while condemning questioning of jurisdiction-of-Porter issues as some sort of impious devilry, it becomes too much to take seriously.

You are right to say that "assuming the best of others...isn't some dereliction of duty".  The rest of your post is just based on lack of experience.

I have no problems with the OCA. I love her hierarchs as much as my own. It's simply a trend of OC.net that the OCA's fans attack her supposed rival in all sorts of ways as tho that could strengthen their hopes for her -- it won't.

But why bring up the OCA?

I just said why. People attack my jurisdiction with the idea it strengthens their jurisdiction's claims to unify the faith here in America.

No one mentioned the OCA (let alone attack the GOA in order to promote OCA claims in America) before you did.  You are reaching into a hat and pulling out an unrelated problem to blow smoke.     

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And that's precisely wrong-headed.


Yes.  Reaching into hats and pulling out unrelated problems to blow smoke is wrong-headed.

Quote
Obviously this is only one kind of motivation, but it's the prevalent one around here. I also imagine it has some bearing on your own reactions, now that I think of it, but then again, now that I think of it, that's probably not the case.

Yeah, it's not. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2017, 11:20:12 PM »
But why bring up the OCA?

I just said why. People attack my jurisdiction with the idea it strengthens their jurisdiction's claims to unify the faith here in America.

No one mentioned the OCA (let alone attack the GOA in order to promote OCA claims in America) before you did.  You are reaching into a hat and pulling out an unrelated problem to blow smoke.

It has happened here quite often that an attack on the GOARCH is linked to OCA by OCA fans. And when it happens, it does so in a vigorously memorable fashion.

But leave that all aside, if you can, to consider my underlying point that peace and unity are not to be found in sniffing after schisms and prophesying scandals.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2017, 11:54:23 PM »
OCA, GOAA.... pshht.

I'm throwin' up Antiochian signs

« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 11:56:17 PM by TheTrisagion »
God bless!

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2017, 12:26:57 AM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals.

What is the next step? Does the GOAA submit another list of 3 different people?

Something like that. It's not important. There will be a hierarch in Chicago.
There already is a hierarch in Chicago.

And yes, it is VERY important.

Really? The precise details by which hierarchs go about their business is "VERY important" to you? I can't imagine the hubris it would take for me to feel that way, as a layman.
For one, knowing personally some of the leading candidates, and knowing the Archdiocese first hand.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2017, 12:31:35 AM »
There was already some hesitation among American hierarchs. The EP just made the official move to reboot the process. There's no reason to treat all the workings of the Church as scandals. Those like the first author who seem to want every disagreement to end in schism had better think what they may be doing to the Body of Christ.

1.  What hesitation?  Bishop SEVASTIANOS was highly recommended for this post. 

My Metropolitan had asked for further consideration.

Quote
2.  But, in the entire history where the Synod was tasked with naming a successor, this move of rejecting all three names is unprecedented which is not to say that the EP doesn't have that right (it does), but a move like this has many speculating as to why this is happening now especially for such an important Metropolis like Chicago.

I doubt it's unprecedented.

If he had rejected one or two particular candidates, then he would be doing more than just resetting the procedure. He'd be picking, and that's not what this is about in spite of the cynical critics always looking for scandal and schism, which is against the Gospel.
St. Mark 10:42-45
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2017, 12:36:14 AM »
St. Mark 10:42-45

So you're against hierarchy altogether now? What's your point?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2017, 12:40:57 AM »
St. Mark 10:42-45

So you're against hierarchy altogether now?
No, just ethnarchs looking for lambs to shear and slaughter rather than pastor.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2017, 12:45:16 AM »
St. Mark 10:42-45

So you're against hierarchy altogether now?
No, just ethnarchs looking for lambs to shear and slaughter rather than pastor.

Wow. Just wow. As far as I can see, and nobody here has brought evidence to the contrary, the Archdiocese and Patriarchate are following established mechanisms to do a routine part of their job. How you get from that to their being super villains and wolves I don't want to imagine.

For one, knowing personally some of the leading candidates, and knowing the Archdiocese first hand.

So some archimandrite ran over your dog or slept on your lawn? What exactly are you trying to say? If you can wipe the froth off your post and try again, I'll try to listen.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2017, 12:58:12 AM »
St. Mark 10:42-45

So you're against hierarchy altogether now?
No, just ethnarchs looking for lambs to shear and slaughter rather than pastor.

Wow. Just wow. As far as I can see, and nobody here has brought evidence to the contrary, the Archdiocese and Patriarchate are following established mechanisms to do a routine part of their job. How you get from that to their being super villains and wolves I don't want to imagine.
Knowledge. Yes, I know you are invincible from imagining that.
For one, knowing personally some of the leading candidates, and knowing the Archdiocese first hand.

So some archimandrite ran over your dog or slept on your lawn? What exactly are you trying to say? If you can wipe the froth off your post and try again, I'll try to listen.
Nope. Those who need to know-not you, as you self-admit-know.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2017, 01:01:05 AM »
St. Mark 10:42-45

So you're against hierarchy altogether now?
No, just ethnarchs looking for lambs to shear and slaughter rather than pastor.

Wow. Just wow. As far as I can see, and nobody here has brought evidence to the contrary, the Archdiocese and Patriarchate are following established mechanisms to do a routine part of their job. How you get from that to their being super villains and wolves I don't want to imagine.
Knowledge. Yes, I know you are invincible from imagining that.
For one, knowing personally some of the leading candidates, and knowing the Archdiocese first hand.

So some archimandrite ran over your dog or slept on your lawn? What exactly are you trying to say? If you can wipe the froth off your post and try again, I'll try to listen.
Nope. Those who need to know-not you, as you self-admit-know.

Ooooh it's super secret knowledge and I can't join the super secret club? So then I assume you're doing super secret good guy stuff to counteract these super secret evils. Otherwise, surely as an honest and pious Orthodox, you'd be spreading the alarm in specific-enough terms that your fellow believers could save themselves.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Hinterlander

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2017, 01:43:17 AM »
Article 14
Election of a Metropolitan

a. In every regular meeting and in consultation with the Archdiocesan Council, the Eparchial Synod reviews and modifies, through additions and deletions, the list of those eligible for the office of Metropolitan. The Auxiliary Bishops are automatically included in this list by virtue of their office. The Eparchial Synod submits the list so completed to the Ecumenical Patriarchate for its approval. The list becomes definitive after its ratification by the Ecumenical Patriarchate and is then officially published by the Archdiocese.

b. Immediately following a vacancy in the See of a Metropolis, but no later than forty (40) days thereafter, the Archbishop convenes the Eparchial Synod in a timely fashion, for the purpose of nominating, after soliciting the opinion of the members of the Archdiocesan Council, three persons, out of whom one shall be elected to fill the vacancy of the Metropolis. The nominees are taken from the above mentioned list of those eligible, pursuant to the procedure provided for by the Regulations of the Eparchial Synod.

c. The list of three nominees thus established is submitted to the Ecumenical Patriarchate. According to the existing practice, the Holy and Sacred Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate elects one of the three as the new Metropolitan.

d. A nominee for the office of Metropolitan shall be a person of deep faith and ethos, a Greek Orthodox Christian, a graduate of an academically recognized and accredited Orthodox school of theology of the highest level, have a fluent knowledge of spoken and written English and Greek, and have a proven ability in administration and pastoral work. In addition, the nominee must have all the pertinent qualifications defined by the Holy Canons, shall not be less than thirty-five (35) years of age, and shall have had a period of sufficient service in the Archdiocese.

e. Those fulfilling the above conditions are candidates and are included in the list of eligible candidates regardless of the place of residence during the time of the election.

https://www.goarch.org/documents/charter

From what I understand from the article the process reached c than went back to a because there is some question as to whether d and e were fulfilled?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EP rejects candidates for Chicago Metropolis
« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2017, 02:46:13 AM »
There already is a hierarch in Chicago.

You see what I mean, Mor? I mean, come on.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy