Author Topic: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?  (Read 1483 times)

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« on: July 12, 2017, 01:39:41 PM »
The blog New Liturgical Movement has a post with photos of a recent Coptic Catholic Liturgy in NYC. 

I know something about the relationship between Indian Orthodox and their Eastern Catholic counterparts, and a bit about the same dynamic among Armenian Orthodox and Armenian Catholics, but I am not familiar with the state of relations between the Coptic Orthodox and their Catholic counterparts.  What are they like? 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2017, 02:59:59 PM »
Oh boy.  I see the subdeacon is doing that "blowing smoke" thing.  ::)

Others who are more knowledgeable, but from what I have read, in a nutshell, relations have historically been frosty because the "Coptic Catholic" church is the result of Latin proselytism among the Copts, but things have improved lately.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2017, 03:14:25 PM »
Yes, relations have improved significantly.  Pope Tawadros was the first Coptic Orthodox Pope to attend the enthronement of the Coptic Catholic Pope.  But I speculate such relations at most seem to benefit politically.  Religiously, while it may see Pope Tawadros wants closer spiritual relations with the Catholics overall, the Synod has a bit of push back on that.
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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2017, 04:39:44 PM »
Yes, relations have improved significantly.  Pope Tawadros was the first Coptic Orthodox Pope to attend the enthronement of the Coptic Catholic Pope.  But I speculate such relations at most seem to benefit politically.  Religiously, while it may see Pope Tawadros wants closer spiritual relations with the Catholics overall, the Synod has a bit of push back on that.

Thank God for the Synod and for the fact that the Pope doesn't have the power most rank and file Copts think he does!  One time, a priest asked me to do a talk on Orthodox ecclesiology and the conciliar nature of our Church at his parish.  When I described the nature of how an Orthodox patriarch interacts with his synod, and how the Pope had to be invited to enter the diocese of an enthroned bishop and could not interfere with his pastoral decisions, one old uncle stood up angrily and shouted, "You have reduced our Pope to a picture on the wall!"  I wanted to burst out laughing, but I restrained myself and addressed his concerns in a calm, academic fashion.  :)
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Remnkemi

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2017, 07:13:06 PM »
Oh boy.  I see the subdeacon is doing that "blowing smoke" thing.  ::)

Well I guess I can add that to my hypothesis on Coptic diaconate censing - that is we took the "blowing smoke" thing from the Coptic Catholics at some point in time and removed it in the 1990's albeit with the wrong justification. By the way, I'm still hoping you'll comment privately to my pm when you get a chance.

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2017, 08:16:16 PM »
Oh boy.  I see the subdeacon is doing that "blowing smoke" thing.  ::)

Others who are more knowledgeable, but from what I have read, in a nutshell, relations have historically been frosty because the "Coptic Catholic" church is the result of Latin proselytism among the Copts, but things have improved lately.

How do you tell a deacon from a subdeacon?

What is that "blowing smoke" thing?
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2017, 09:07:02 PM »
Yes, relations have improved significantly.  Pope Tawadros was the first Coptic Orthodox Pope to attend the enthronement of the Coptic Catholic Pope.
Actually, the head of the Coptic Catholics is called merely a Patriarch. There's no room for two Popes in the Roman side of the force. :P
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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2017, 09:21:41 PM »
How do you tell a deacon from a subdeacon?

They are both supposed to wear their orarion (often wrongly termed an epitrachelion or "badrishil") over their left shoulder, but informally many subdeacons have taking to wearing it over their right.  When both are wearing it the right way, the only way you can tell them apart is that the deacon is supposed to wear a crown.  Like this:



What is that "blowing smoke" thing?

So, long story short, it is the unfortunate truth that during the papacy of His Holiness Pope Shenouda III of Thrice Blessed Memory, the Coptic diaconate began to atrophy.  Actual deacons became few and far between, and readers, chanters, and subdeacons not only began to be called "deacons", but also to function liturgically as deacons in the altar, chanting the deacon's responses, etc.  Down to little kids.  See this excellent article: https://canadox.wordpress.com/2015/07/24/yes-my-son-is-not-a-deacon-but-then-neither-is-yours/

During this period, the actual deacon was wrongly stripped of his right to swing the censer - as he did in the Coptic Church prior to that time and does in every other Eastern and Oriental Orthodox jurisdiction - and a misinterpretation of the story of Korah in the Old Testament was misapplied as a justification for this innovative prohibition.  As a result, "deacons" of whatever actual rank began "blowing" incense - since they weren't allowed to swing - as you see the apparent subdeacon in one of the photos accompanying the article doing.  It's silly.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 09:22:34 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2017, 09:26:04 PM »
Oh boy.  I see the subdeacon is doing that "blowing smoke" thing.  ::)

Well I guess I can add that to my hypothesis on Coptic diaconate censing - that is we took the "blowing smoke" thing from the Coptic Catholics at some point in time and removed it in the 1990's albeit with the wrong justification. By the way, I'm still hoping you'll comment privately to my pm when you get a chance.

You bet.  :)
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2017, 09:27:09 PM »
Yes, relations have improved significantly.  Pope Tawadros was the first Coptic Orthodox Pope to attend the enthronement of the Coptic Catholic Pope.
Actually, the head of the Coptic Catholics is called merely a Patriarch. There's no room for two Popes in the Roman side of the force. :P

That is as much in deference to the Copts as it is to the Bishop of Rome.  The Coptic Orthodox, I imagine, would be upset if the Coptic Catholic Patriarch used the title Pope.  The Malankara Orthodox were not pleased when Malankara Catholic Archbishop used the title Catholicos.
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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2017, 09:34:20 PM »
How do you tell a deacon from a subdeacon?

They are both supposed to wear their orarion (often wrongly termed an epitrachelion or "badrishil") over their left shoulder, but informally many subdeacons have taking to wearing it over their right.  When both are wearing it the right way, the only way you can tell them apart is that the deacon is supposed to wear a crown.  Like this:



What is that "blowing smoke" thing?

So, long story short, it is the unfortunate truth that during the papacy of His Holiness Pope Shenouda III of Thrice Blessed Memory, the Coptic diaconate began to atrophy.  Actual deacons became few and far between, and readers, chanters, and subdeacons not only began to be called "deacons", but also to function liturgically as deacons in the altar, chanting the deacon's responses, etc.  Down to little kids.  See this excellent article: https://canadox.wordpress.com/2015/07/24/yes-my-son-is-not-a-deacon-but-then-neither-is-yours/

During this period, the actual deacon was wrongly stripped of his right to swing the censer - as he did in the Coptic Church prior to that time and does in every other Eastern and Oriental Orthodox jurisdiction - and a misinterpretation of the story of Korah in the Old Testament was misapplied as a justification for this innovative prohibition.  As a result, "deacons" of whatever actual rank began "blowing" incense - since they weren't allowed to swing - as you see the apparent subdeacon in one of the photos accompanying the article doing.  It's silly.

Thanks for the info.  So who are the guys with oraions crossed like Byzantine subdeacons? 
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 09:34:44 PM by Deacon Lance »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2017, 09:47:44 PM »
Some Coptic subdeacons do it right.  I think those two are subdeacons (one of them I know personally is).  Readers also wear the orarion the same way, although technically it's been arguably said they shouldn't even wear an orarion.

PS one of my favorite Coptic deacons pictured here :) ; I attended his ordination
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 09:48:49 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2017, 09:57:34 PM »
How do you tell a deacon from a subdeacon?

They are both supposed to wear their orarion (often wrongly termed an epitrachelion or "badrishil") over their left shoulder, but informally many subdeacons have taking to wearing it over their right.  When both are wearing it the right way, the only way you can tell them apart is that the deacon is supposed to wear a crown.  Like this:



What is that "blowing smoke" thing?

So, long story short, it is the unfortunate truth that during the papacy of His Holiness Pope Shenouda III of Thrice Blessed Memory, the Coptic diaconate began to atrophy.  Actual deacons became few and far between, and readers, chanters, and subdeacons not only began to be called "deacons", but also to function liturgically as deacons in the altar, chanting the deacon's responses, etc.  Down to little kids.  See this excellent article: https://canadox.wordpress.com/2015/07/24/yes-my-son-is-not-a-deacon-but-then-neither-is-yours/

During this period, the actual deacon was wrongly stripped of his right to swing the censer - as he did in the Coptic Church prior to that time and does in every other Eastern and Oriental Orthodox jurisdiction - and a misinterpretation of the story of Korah in the Old Testament was misapplied as a justification for this innovative prohibition.  As a result, "deacons" of whatever actual rank began "blowing" incense - since they weren't allowed to swing - as you see the apparent subdeacon in one of the photos accompanying the article doing.  It's silly.

Thanks for the info.  So who are the guys with oraions crossed like Byzantine subdeacons?

As Mina said, although some Coptic subdeacons wear their orarions the right way, as the men pictured are apparently doing based on his testimony, most wear it in the same manner as the deacon.  Readers wear their orarions subdeacon style, though as Mina said, they probably shouldn't be wearing one at all.  If most Copts saw a "deacon" attired like the man on the left:



they would identify him as an anagnostis (reader).  The man on the right is likely a subdeacon.  He is certainly not a full deacon.

This kind of thing throws people in the sister (Oriental Orthodox) churches off quite a bit.  I've seen an anagnostis or two addressed as "subdeacon" by the clergy of our sister churches during concelebrations.  ;D
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2017, 11:09:24 PM »
Yes, relations have improved significantly.  Pope Tawadros was the first Coptic Orthodox Pope to attend the enthronement of the Coptic Catholic Pope.
Actually, the head of the Coptic Catholics is called merely a Patriarch. There's no room for two Popes in the Roman side of the force. :P

That is as much in deference to the Copts as it is to the Bishop of Rome.  The Coptic Orthodox, I imagine, would be upset if the Coptic Catholic Patriarch used the title Pope.  The Malankara Orthodox were not pleased when Malankara Catholic Archbishop used the title Catholicos.
It's fair as you put it.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 11:09:39 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2017, 12:28:44 AM »
Did a little investigating.  Those are deacons.  Coptic Catholics have adopted the same system Byzantine Catholics use.  The deacons do not wear crowns and the bishops tend to use the klobuk more often than the crown-mitre as well.
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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2017, 08:16:05 AM »
Did a little investigating.  Those are deacons.  Coptic Catholics have adopted the same system Byzantine Catholics use.  The deacons do not wear crowns and the bishops tend to use the klobuk more often than the crown-mitre as well.

That's interesting.  What are your sources on that? 

If they're going to do that, why bother buying modern Coptic-style vestments in the first place?  Just wear the Byzantine stuff.  The priest has on an odd hodgepodge of styles, but the deacons are wearing straight-up Coptic tonias and petrishils.  What's even more disturbing is that like the Orthodox Copts, they've also apparently abandoned their heritage of diaconal censing in favor of "blowing smoke".
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 08:16:34 AM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2017, 04:24:50 PM »
Did a little investigating.  Those are deacons.  Coptic Catholics have adopted the same system Byzantine Catholics use.  The deacons do not wear crowns and the bishops tend to use the klobuk more often than the crown-mitre as well.

That's interesting.  What are your sources on that? 

If they're going to do that, why bother buying modern Coptic-style vestments in the first place?  Just wear the Byzantine stuff.  The priest has on an odd hodgepodge of styles, but the deacons are wearing straight-up Coptic tonias and petrishils.  What's even more disturbing is that like the Orthodox Copts, they've also apparently abandoned their heritage of diaconal censing in favor of "blowing smoke".
I was looking at photos of an ordination to the priesthood.  The deacon to be ordained priest was vested only in tonia and orarion.  Also looking at dozens of photos of Liturgy in the Coptic Catholic Patriarchal Cathedral all deacons wore the tonia and orarion, altar boys wore only the tonia.  Most of the Eastern Catholic Churches unfortunately only confer minor orders on those headed to the diaconate/presbyterate.  The Chaldeans and Maronites seem to be the exception and ordain subdeacons for parishes. 
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2017, 05:23:10 PM »
Did a little investigating.  Those are deacons.  Coptic Catholics have adopted the same system Byzantine Catholics use.  The deacons do not wear crowns and the bishops tend to use the klobuk more often than the crown-mitre as well.

That's interesting.  What are your sources on that? 

If they're going to do that, why bother buying modern Coptic-style vestments in the first place?  Just wear the Byzantine stuff.  The priest has on an odd hodgepodge of styles, but the deacons are wearing straight-up Coptic tonias and petrishils.  What's even more disturbing is that like the Orthodox Copts, they've also apparently abandoned their heritage of diaconal censing in favor of "blowing smoke".
I was looking at photos of an ordination to the priesthood.  The deacon to be ordained priest was vested only in tonia and orarion.  Also looking at dozens of photos of Liturgy in the Coptic Catholic Patriarchal Cathedral all deacons wore the tonia and orarion, altar boys wore only the tonia.  Most of the Eastern Catholic Churches unfortunately only confer minor orders on those headed to the diaconate/presbyterate.  The Chaldeans and Maronites seem to be the exception and ordain subdeacons for parishes.

Were they all wearing them in the fashion of the deacon?
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2017, 05:28:41 PM »
Did a little investigating.  Those are deacons.  Coptic Catholics have adopted the same system Byzantine Catholics use.  The deacons do not wear crowns and the bishops tend to use the klobuk more often than the crown-mitre as well.

That's interesting.  What are your sources on that? 

If they're going to do that, why bother buying modern Coptic-style vestments in the first place?  Just wear the Byzantine stuff.  The priest has on an odd hodgepodge of styles, but the deacons are wearing straight-up Coptic tonias and petrishils.  What's even more disturbing is that like the Orthodox Copts, they've also apparently abandoned their heritage of diaconal censing in favor of "blowing smoke".
I was looking at photos of an ordination to the priesthood.  The deacon to be ordained priest was vested only in tonia and orarion.  Also looking at dozens of photos of Liturgy in the Coptic Catholic Patriarchal Cathedral all deacons wore the tonia and orarion, altar boys wore only the tonia.  Most of the Eastern Catholic Churches unfortunately only confer minor orders on those headed to the diaconate/presbyterate.  The Chaldeans and Maronites seem to be the exception and ordain subdeacons for parishes.

Were they all wearing them in the fashion of the deacon?
Yep, none crossed, none on right shoulder.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2017, 05:43:24 PM »
Did a little investigating.  Those are deacons.  Coptic Catholics have adopted the same system Byzantine Catholics use.  The deacons do not wear crowns and the bishops tend to use the klobuk more often than the crown-mitre as well.

That's interesting.  What are your sources on that? 

If they're going to do that, why bother buying modern Coptic-style vestments in the first place?  Just wear the Byzantine stuff.  The priest has on an odd hodgepodge of styles, but the deacons are wearing straight-up Coptic tonias and petrishils.  What's even more disturbing is that like the Orthodox Copts, they've also apparently abandoned their heritage of diaconal censing in favor of "blowing smoke".
I was looking at photos of an ordination to the priesthood.  The deacon to be ordained priest was vested only in tonia and orarion.  Also looking at dozens of photos of Liturgy in the Coptic Catholic Patriarchal Cathedral all deacons wore the tonia and orarion, altar boys wore only the tonia.  Most of the Eastern Catholic Churches unfortunately only confer minor orders on those headed to the diaconate/presbyterate.  The Chaldeans and Maronites seem to be the exception and ordain subdeacons for parishes.

Were they all wearing them in the fashion of the deacon?
Yep, none crossed, none on right shoulder.

It's interesting how they try to keep a foot in the modern Coptic Orthodox world, right down to picking up our newly evolved liturgical irregularities that came long after they left us for Rome.  If they really think that we have fallen away from the Church, and being in the Church means being in communion with the Bishop of Rome, shouldn't they leave what I freely admit are our mistakes developed after we parted ways with them (like the stupid ban on diaconal censing or the resulting stupidity of blowing smoke)?  Don't tell me they've picked up CCM and Joel Osteen in the Bible study groups too!  :laugh:
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2017, 05:47:01 PM »
Did a little investigating.  Those are deacons.  Coptic Catholics have adopted the same system Byzantine Catholics use.  The deacons do not wear crowns and the bishops tend to use the klobuk more often than the crown-mitre as well.

That's interesting.  What are your sources on that? 

If they're going to do that, why bother buying modern Coptic-style vestments in the first place?  Just wear the Byzantine stuff.  The priest has on an odd hodgepodge of styles, but the deacons are wearing straight-up Coptic tonias and petrishils.  What's even more disturbing is that like the Orthodox Copts, they've also apparently abandoned their heritage of diaconal censing in favor of "blowing smoke".
I was looking at photos of an ordination to the priesthood.  The deacon to be ordained priest was vested only in tonia and orarion.  Also looking at dozens of photos of Liturgy in the Coptic Catholic Patriarchal Cathedral all deacons wore the tonia and orarion, altar boys wore only the tonia.  Most of the Eastern Catholic Churches unfortunately only confer minor orders on those headed to the diaconate/presbyterate.  The Chaldeans and Maronites seem to be the exception and ordain subdeacons for parishes.

Were they all wearing them in the fashion of the deacon?
Yep, none crossed, none on right shoulder.

It's interesting how they try to keep a foot in the modern Coptic Orthodox world, right down to picking up our newly evolved liturgical irregularities that came long after they left us for Rome.  If they really think that we have fallen away from the Church, and being in the Church means being in communion with the Bishop of Rome, shouldn't they leave what I freely admit are our mistakes developed after we parted ways with them (like the stupid ban on diaconal censing or the resulting stupidity of blowing smoke)?  Don't tell me they've picked up CCM and Joel Osteen in the Bible study groups too!  :laugh:

I hope not!  ;)
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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2017, 05:49:03 PM »
Did a little investigating.  Those are deacons.  Coptic Catholics have adopted the same system Byzantine Catholics use.  The deacons do not wear crowns and the bishops tend to use the klobuk more often than the crown-mitre as well.

That's interesting.  What are your sources on that? 

If they're going to do that, why bother buying modern Coptic-style vestments in the first place?  Just wear the Byzantine stuff.  The priest has on an odd hodgepodge of styles, but the deacons are wearing straight-up Coptic tonias and petrishils.  What's even more disturbing is that like the Orthodox Copts, they've also apparently abandoned their heritage of diaconal censing in favor of "blowing smoke".
I was looking at photos of an ordination to the priesthood.  The deacon to be ordained priest was vested only in tonia and orarion.  Also looking at dozens of photos of Liturgy in the Coptic Catholic Patriarchal Cathedral all deacons wore the tonia and orarion, altar boys wore only the tonia.  Most of the Eastern Catholic Churches unfortunately only confer minor orders on those headed to the diaconate/presbyterate.  The Chaldeans and Maronites seem to be the exception and ordain subdeacons for parishes.

Were they all wearing them in the fashion of the deacon?
Yep, none crossed, none on right shoulder.

It's interesting how they try to keep a foot in the modern Coptic Orthodox world, right down to picking up our newly evolved liturgical irregularities that came long after they left us for Rome.  If they really think that we have fallen away from the Church, and being in the Church means being in communion with the Bishop of Rome, shouldn't they leave what I freely admit are our mistakes developed after we parted ways with them (like the stupid ban on diaconal censing or the resulting stupidity of blowing smoke)?  Don't tell me they've picked up CCM and Joel Osteen in the Bible study groups too!  :laugh:

It's a weird place to be, and I wonder how -- given the removal over time of whatever motivated the various unions with Rome -- groups like the Eastern Catholics justify to themselves not returning to the Church.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2017, 06:29:45 PM »
Did a little investigating.  Those are deacons.  Coptic Catholics have adopted the same system Byzantine Catholics use.  The deacons do not wear crowns and the bishops tend to use the klobuk more often than the crown-mitre as well.

That's interesting.  What are your sources on that? 

If they're going to do that, why bother buying modern Coptic-style vestments in the first place?  Just wear the Byzantine stuff.  The priest has on an odd hodgepodge of styles, but the deacons are wearing straight-up Coptic tonias and petrishils.  What's even more disturbing is that like the Orthodox Copts, they've also apparently abandoned their heritage of diaconal censing in favor of "blowing smoke".
I was looking at photos of an ordination to the priesthood.  The deacon to be ordained priest was vested only in tonia and orarion.  Also looking at dozens of photos of Liturgy in the Coptic Catholic Patriarchal Cathedral all deacons wore the tonia and orarion, altar boys wore only the tonia.  Most of the Eastern Catholic Churches unfortunately only confer minor orders on those headed to the diaconate/presbyterate.  The Chaldeans and Maronites seem to be the exception and ordain subdeacons for parishes.

Were they all wearing them in the fashion of the deacon?
Yep, none crossed, none on right shoulder.

It's interesting how they try to keep a foot in the modern Coptic Orthodox world, right down to picking up our newly evolved liturgical irregularities that came long after they left us for Rome.  If they really think that we have fallen away from the Church, and being in the Church means being in communion with the Bishop of Rome, shouldn't they leave what I freely admit are our mistakes developed after we parted ways with them (like the stupid ban on diaconal censing or the resulting stupidity of blowing smoke)?  Don't tell me they've picked up CCM and Joel Osteen in the Bible study groups too!  :laugh:

It's a weird place to be, and I wonder how -- given the removal over time of whatever motivated the various unions with Rome -- groups like the Eastern Catholics justify to themselves not returning to the Church.

I would guess most of them, like myself, believe that the Bishop of Rome has a special Christ appointed role in relation to his brother bishops.  Since the Orthodox deny this role, beyond one of honorary precedence, to become Orthodox would be dishonest.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 06:30:09 PM by Deacon Lance »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2017, 06:36:10 PM »
Did a little investigating.  Those are deacons.  Coptic Catholics have adopted the same system Byzantine Catholics use.  The deacons do not wear crowns and the bishops tend to use the klobuk more often than the crown-mitre as well.

That's interesting.  What are your sources on that? 

If they're going to do that, why bother buying modern Coptic-style vestments in the first place?  Just wear the Byzantine stuff.  The priest has on an odd hodgepodge of styles, but the deacons are wearing straight-up Coptic tonias and petrishils.  What's even more disturbing is that like the Orthodox Copts, they've also apparently abandoned their heritage of diaconal censing in favor of "blowing smoke".
I was looking at photos of an ordination to the priesthood.  The deacon to be ordained priest was vested only in tonia and orarion.  Also looking at dozens of photos of Liturgy in the Coptic Catholic Patriarchal Cathedral all deacons wore the tonia and orarion, altar boys wore only the tonia.  Most of the Eastern Catholic Churches unfortunately only confer minor orders on those headed to the diaconate/presbyterate.  The Chaldeans and Maronites seem to be the exception and ordain subdeacons for parishes.

Were they all wearing them in the fashion of the deacon?
Yep, none crossed, none on right shoulder.

It's interesting how they try to keep a foot in the modern Coptic Orthodox world, right down to picking up our newly evolved liturgical irregularities that came long after they left us for Rome.  If they really think that we have fallen away from the Church, and being in the Church means being in communion with the Bishop of Rome, shouldn't they leave what I freely admit are our mistakes developed after we parted ways with them (like the stupid ban on diaconal censing or the resulting stupidity of blowing smoke)?  Don't tell me they've picked up CCM and Joel Osteen in the Bible study groups too!  :laugh:

It's a weird place to be, and I wonder how -- given the removal over time of whatever motivated the various unions with Rome -- groups like the Eastern Catholics justify to themselves not returning to the Church.

I would guess most of them, like myself, believe that the Bishop of Rome has a special Christ appointed role in relation to his brother bishops.  Since the Orthodox deny this role, beyond one of honorary precedence, to become Orthodox would be dishonest.

Then why do you want to act Orthodox? Something's missing from your explanation. If the Pope is what matters for you, then why not just submit to the shape of church developed by that See? On the other hand, if the Orthodox faith and practice are compelling for you, then how can you easily dismiss the Church from which they come? Again I say it must be a weird space to occupy, and the behavior of the Coptic Catholics, which Antony highlights, seems to illustrate that compellingly.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2017, 06:57:23 PM »
Did a little investigating.  Those are deacons.  Coptic Catholics have adopted the same system Byzantine Catholics use.  The deacons do not wear crowns and the bishops tend to use the klobuk more often than the crown-mitre as well.

That's interesting.  What are your sources on that? 

If they're going to do that, why bother buying modern Coptic-style vestments in the first place?  Just wear the Byzantine stuff.  The priest has on an odd hodgepodge of styles, but the deacons are wearing straight-up Coptic tonias and petrishils.  What's even more disturbing is that like the Orthodox Copts, they've also apparently abandoned their heritage of diaconal censing in favor of "blowing smoke".
I was looking at photos of an ordination to the priesthood.  The deacon to be ordained priest was vested only in tonia and orarion.  Also looking at dozens of photos of Liturgy in the Coptic Catholic Patriarchal Cathedral all deacons wore the tonia and orarion, altar boys wore only the tonia.  Most of the Eastern Catholic Churches unfortunately only confer minor orders on those headed to the diaconate/presbyterate.  The Chaldeans and Maronites seem to be the exception and ordain subdeacons for parishes.

Were they all wearing them in the fashion of the deacon?
Yep, none crossed, none on right shoulder.

It's interesting how they try to keep a foot in the modern Coptic Orthodox world, right down to picking up our newly evolved liturgical irregularities that came long after they left us for Rome.  If they really think that we have fallen away from the Church, and being in the Church means being in communion with the Bishop of Rome, shouldn't they leave what I freely admit are our mistakes developed after we parted ways with them (like the stupid ban on diaconal censing or the resulting stupidity of blowing smoke)?  Don't tell me they've picked up CCM and Joel Osteen in the Bible study groups too!  :laugh:

It's a weird place to be, and I wonder how -- given the removal over time of whatever motivated the various unions with Rome -- groups like the Eastern Catholics justify to themselves not returning to the Church.

I would guess most of them, like myself, believe that the Bishop of Rome has a special Christ appointed role in relation to his brother bishops.  Since the Orthodox deny this role, beyond one of honorary precedence, to become Orthodox would be dishonest.

Then why do you want to act Orthodox? Something's missing from your explanation. If the Pope is what matters for you, then why not just submit to the shape of church developed by that See? On the other hand, if the Orthodox faith and practice are compelling for you, then how can you easily dismiss the Church from which they come? Again I say it must be a weird space to occupy, and the behavior of the Coptic Catholics, which Antony highlights, seems to illustrate that compellingly.

We don't see ourselves as acting Orthodox.  We are what we believe we have always been, Eastern Christians in union with Rome.  If the Church is to be Catholic, it must be more than the Latin tradition.  My heritage, Slovak Greek Catholic, goes back to SS Cyril and Methodius and I will not give it up just because it causes somebody cognitive dissonance.  I don't easily dismiss the Orthodox Church.  It is because I love her I participate here and elsewhere for better understanding between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.  I believe both can benefit from the other.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2017, 07:02:04 PM »
^ This would start to make sense if you really think your ancestors never were apart from Rome and you really think their faith and practice was never in any way overruled by Rome at any period.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2017, 07:10:25 PM »
^ This would start to make sense if you really think your ancestors never were apart from Rome and you really think their faith and practice was never in any way overruled by Rome at any period.
I realize they were separated from Rome for a time and that Rome has not always treated us well.  But some Patriarchs started heresies and others broke communion with one another.  Some Eastern Christians waged war on their fellow Eastern Christians.  That is the fallen world we live in.
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Offline WPM

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2017, 07:10:44 PM »
Did a little investigating.  Those are deacons.  Coptic Catholics have adopted the same system Byzantine Catholics use.  The deacons do not wear crowns and the bishops tend to use the klobuk more often than the crown-mitre as well.

That's interesting.  What are your sources on that? 

If they're going to do that, why bother buying modern Coptic-style vestments in the first place?  Just wear the Byzantine stuff.  The priest has on an odd hodgepodge of styles, but the deacons are wearing straight-up Coptic tonias and petrishils.  What's even more disturbing is that like the Orthodox Copts, they've also apparently abandoned their heritage of diaconal censing in favor of "blowing smoke".

They = Opposite of you
Learn meditation.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2017, 09:35:20 PM »
Did a little investigating.  Those are deacons.  Coptic Catholics have adopted the same system Byzantine Catholics use.  The deacons do not wear crowns and the bishops tend to use the klobuk more often than the crown-mitre as well.

That's interesting.  What are your sources on that? 

If they're going to do that, why bother buying modern Coptic-style vestments in the first place?  Just wear the Byzantine stuff.  The priest has on an odd hodgepodge of styles, but the deacons are wearing straight-up Coptic tonias and petrishils.  What's even more disturbing is that like the Orthodox Copts, they've also apparently abandoned their heritage of diaconal censing in favor of "blowing smoke".
I was looking at photos of an ordination to the priesthood.  The deacon to be ordained priest was vested only in tonia and orarion.  Also looking at dozens of photos of Liturgy in the Coptic Catholic Patriarchal Cathedral all deacons wore the tonia and orarion, altar boys wore only the tonia.  Most of the Eastern Catholic Churches unfortunately only confer minor orders on those headed to the diaconate/presbyterate.  The Chaldeans and Maronites seem to be the exception and ordain subdeacons for parishes.

Were they all wearing them in the fashion of the deacon?
Yep, none crossed, none on right shoulder.

It's interesting how they try to keep a foot in the modern Coptic Orthodox world, right down to picking up our newly evolved liturgical irregularities that came long after they left us for Rome.  If they really think that we have fallen away from the Church, and being in the Church means being in communion with the Bishop of Rome, shouldn't they leave what I freely admit are our mistakes developed after we parted ways with them (like the stupid ban on diaconal censing or the resulting stupidity of blowing smoke)?  Don't tell me they've picked up CCM and Joel Osteen in the Bible study groups too!  :laugh:

It's a weird place to be, and I wonder how -- given the removal over time of whatever motivated the various unions with Rome -- groups like the Eastern Catholics justify to themselves not returning to the Church.

I would guess most of them, like myself, believe that the Bishop of Rome has a special Christ appointed role in relation to his brother bishops.  Since the Orthodox deny this role, beyond one of honorary precedence, to become Orthodox would be dishonest.

Then why do you want to act Orthodox? Something's missing from your explanation. If the Pope is what matters for you, then why not just submit to the shape of church developed by that See? On the other hand, if the Orthodox faith and practice are compelling for you, then how can you easily dismiss the Church from which they come? Again I say it must be a weird space to occupy, and the behavior of the Coptic Catholics, which Antony highlights, seems to illustrate that compellingly.

We don't see ourselves as acting Orthodox.  We are what we believe we have always been, Eastern Christians in union with Rome.  If the Church is to be Catholic, it must be more than the Latin tradition.  My heritage, Slovak Greek Catholic, goes back to SS Cyril and Methodius and I will not give it up just because it causes somebody cognitive dissonance.  I don't easily dismiss the Orthodox Church.  It is because I love her I participate here and elsewhere for better understanding between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.  I believe both can benefit from the other.

So, speaking honestly, do you view those small groups Eastern Christians who were united with Rome at very late dates - sometimes by outright force, as in Kerala, Eritrea and Ethiopia, sometimes through coercion and imperialist intrigue, as in Egypt - to be the native Church in those lands and for us to be schismatics?  If so, I hope you can see how that view presents a number of problems, both historical and ecclesiological.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 09:35:58 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2017, 09:39:17 PM »
Did a little investigating.  Those are deacons.  Coptic Catholics have adopted the same system Byzantine Catholics use.  The deacons do not wear crowns and the bishops tend to use the klobuk more often than the crown-mitre as well.

That's interesting.  What are your sources on that? 

If they're going to do that, why bother buying modern Coptic-style vestments in the first place?  Just wear the Byzantine stuff.  The priest has on an odd hodgepodge of styles, but the deacons are wearing straight-up Coptic tonias and petrishils.  What's even more disturbing is that like the Orthodox Copts, they've also apparently abandoned their heritage of diaconal censing in favor of "blowing smoke".

They = Opposite of you

Yes, WPM.  That's right.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2017, 09:52:10 PM »
Did a little investigating.  Those are deacons.  Coptic Catholics have adopted the same system Byzantine Catholics use.  The deacons do not wear crowns and the bishops tend to use the klobuk more often than the crown-mitre as well.

That's interesting.  What are your sources on that? 

If they're going to do that, why bother buying modern Coptic-style vestments in the first place?  Just wear the Byzantine stuff.  The priest has on an odd hodgepodge of styles, but the deacons are wearing straight-up Coptic tonias and petrishils.  What's even more disturbing is that like the Orthodox Copts, they've also apparently abandoned their heritage of diaconal censing in favor of "blowing smoke".
I was looking at photos of an ordination to the priesthood.  The deacon to be ordained priest was vested only in tonia and orarion.  Also looking at dozens of photos of Liturgy in the Coptic Catholic Patriarchal Cathedral all deacons wore the tonia and orarion, altar boys wore only the tonia.  Most of the Eastern Catholic Churches unfortunately only confer minor orders on those headed to the diaconate/presbyterate.  The Chaldeans and Maronites seem to be the exception and ordain subdeacons for parishes.

Were they all wearing them in the fashion of the deacon?
Yep, none crossed, none on right shoulder.

It's interesting how they try to keep a foot in the modern Coptic Orthodox world, right down to picking up our newly evolved liturgical irregularities that came long after they left us for Rome.  If they really think that we have fallen away from the Church, and being in the Church means being in communion with the Bishop of Rome, shouldn't they leave what I freely admit are our mistakes developed after we parted ways with them (like the stupid ban on diaconal censing or the resulting stupidity of blowing smoke)?  Don't tell me they've picked up CCM and Joel Osteen in the Bible study groups too!  :laugh:

It's a weird place to be, and I wonder how -- given the removal over time of whatever motivated the various unions with Rome -- groups like the Eastern Catholics justify to themselves not returning to the Church.

I would guess most of them, like myself, believe that the Bishop of Rome has a special Christ appointed role in relation to his brother bishops.  Since the Orthodox deny this role, beyond one of honorary precedence, to become Orthodox would be dishonest.

Then why do you want to act Orthodox? Something's missing from your explanation. If the Pope is what matters for you, then why not just submit to the shape of church developed by that See? On the other hand, if the Orthodox faith and practice are compelling for you, then how can you easily dismiss the Church from which they come? Again I say it must be a weird space to occupy, and the behavior of the Coptic Catholics, which Antony highlights, seems to illustrate that compellingly.

We don't see ourselves as acting Orthodox.  We are what we believe we have always been, Eastern Christians in union with Rome.  If the Church is to be Catholic, it must be more than the Latin tradition.  My heritage, Slovak Greek Catholic, goes back to SS Cyril and Methodius and I will not give it up just because it causes somebody cognitive dissonance.  I don't easily dismiss the Orthodox Church.  It is because I love her I participate here and elsewhere for better understanding between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.  I believe both can benefit from the other.

So, speaking honestly, do you view those small groups Eastern Christians who were united with Rome at very late dates - sometimes by outright force, as in Kerala, Eritrea and Ethiopia, sometimes through coercion and imperialist intrigue, as in Egypt - to be the native Church in those lands and for us to be schismatics?  If so, I hope you can see how that view presents a number of problems, both historical and ecclesiological.
Not at all, but I reject the idea that if an Eastern Christian decides for Rome they should give up their own Rite and become Latin as Porter suggests.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2017, 09:52:45 PM »
Not at all what I suggest, altho consistency might suggest it. I suggest you rejoin the Church.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2017, 09:56:40 PM »
So, speaking honestly, do you view those small groups Eastern Christians who were united with Rome at very late dates - sometimes by outright force, as in Kerala, Eritrea and Ethiopia, sometimes through coercion and imperialist intrigue, as in Egypt - to be the native Church in those lands and for us to be schismatics?  If so, I hope you can see how that view presents a number of problems, both historical and ecclesiological.

I have a sad sense that the feeling in Catholic quarters is probably that, while the circumstances of these conquests might be deplorable, still moral principle of the rights of the Papacy justifies them retroactively. Similarly to how Americans deplored the war in Southeast Asia, but felt the principle of capitalism made it all right on the whole.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2017, 10:05:29 PM »
Did a little investigating.  Those are deacons.  Coptic Catholics have adopted the same system Byzantine Catholics use.  The deacons do not wear crowns and the bishops tend to use the klobuk more often than the crown-mitre as well.

That's interesting.  What are your sources on that? 

If they're going to do that, why bother buying modern Coptic-style vestments in the first place?  Just wear the Byzantine stuff.  The priest has on an odd hodgepodge of styles, but the deacons are wearing straight-up Coptic tonias and petrishils.  What's even more disturbing is that like the Orthodox Copts, they've also apparently abandoned their heritage of diaconal censing in favor of "blowing smoke".
I was looking at photos of an ordination to the priesthood.  The deacon to be ordained priest was vested only in tonia and orarion.  Also looking at dozens of photos of Liturgy in the Coptic Catholic Patriarchal Cathedral all deacons wore the tonia and orarion, altar boys wore only the tonia.  Most of the Eastern Catholic Churches unfortunately only confer minor orders on those headed to the diaconate/presbyterate.  The Chaldeans and Maronites seem to be the exception and ordain subdeacons for parishes.

Were they all wearing them in the fashion of the deacon?
Yep, none crossed, none on right shoulder.

It's interesting how they try to keep a foot in the modern Coptic Orthodox world, right down to picking up our newly evolved liturgical irregularities that came long after they left us for Rome.  If they really think that we have fallen away from the Church, and being in the Church means being in communion with the Bishop of Rome, shouldn't they leave what I freely admit are our mistakes developed after we parted ways with them (like the stupid ban on diaconal censing or the resulting stupidity of blowing smoke)?  Don't tell me they've picked up CCM and Joel Osteen in the Bible study groups too!  :laugh:

It's a weird place to be, and I wonder how -- given the removal over time of whatever motivated the various unions with Rome -- groups like the Eastern Catholics justify to themselves not returning to the Church.

I would guess most of them, like myself, believe that the Bishop of Rome has a special Christ appointed role in relation to his brother bishops.  Since the Orthodox deny this role, beyond one of honorary precedence, to become Orthodox would be dishonest.

Then why do you want to act Orthodox? Something's missing from your explanation. If the Pope is what matters for you, then why not just submit to the shape of church developed by that See? On the other hand, if the Orthodox faith and practice are compelling for you, then how can you easily dismiss the Church from which they come? Again I say it must be a weird space to occupy, and the behavior of the Coptic Catholics, which Antony highlights, seems to illustrate that compellingly.

We don't see ourselves as acting Orthodox.  We are what we believe we have always been, Eastern Christians in union with Rome.  If the Church is to be Catholic, it must be more than the Latin tradition.  My heritage, Slovak Greek Catholic, goes back to SS Cyril and Methodius and I will not give it up just because it causes somebody cognitive dissonance.  I don't easily dismiss the Orthodox Church.  It is because I love her I participate here and elsewhere for better understanding between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.  I believe both can benefit from the other.

So, speaking honestly, do you view those small groups Eastern Christians who were united with Rome at very late dates - sometimes by outright force, as in Kerala, Eritrea and Ethiopia, sometimes through coercion and imperialist intrigue, as in Egypt - to be the native Church in those lands and for us to be schismatics?  If so, I hope you can see how that view presents a number of problems, both historical and ecclesiological.
Not at all, but I reject the idea that if an Eastern Christian decides for Rome they should give up their own Rite and become Latin as Porter suggests.

I see.  I do think it silly though that Coptic Catholics are adopting modern Coptic Orthodox practices that developed long after they broke communion with us.  Wouldn't you agree?

So, speaking honestly, do you view those small groups Eastern Christians who were united with Rome at very late dates - sometimes by outright force, as in Kerala, Eritrea and Ethiopia, sometimes through coercion and imperialist intrigue, as in Egypt - to be the native Church in those lands and for us to be schismatics?  If so, I hope you can see how that view presents a number of problems, both historical and ecclesiological.

I have a sad sense that the feeling in Catholic quarters is probably that, while the circumstances of these conquests might be deplorable, still moral principle of the rights of the Papacy justifies them retroactively. Similarly to how Americans deplored the war in Southeast Asia, but felt the principle of capitalism made it all right on the whole.

You may be right.  Especially among self-proclaimed "conservatives" (though I believe they befoul the name) who contend that such conquests were ultimately a good thing for the conquered populations anyway, even when they resulted in genocide or the establishment of vile, anti-Christ systems of racial hierarchy.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2017, 10:11:11 PM »
Did a little investigating.  Those are deacons.  Coptic Catholics have adopted the same system Byzantine Catholics use.  The deacons do not wear crowns and the bishops tend to use the klobuk more often than the crown-mitre as well.

That's interesting.  What are your sources on that? 

If they're going to do that, why bother buying modern Coptic-style vestments in the first place?  Just wear the Byzantine stuff.  The priest has on an odd hodgepodge of styles, but the deacons are wearing straight-up Coptic tonias and petrishils.  What's even more disturbing is that like the Orthodox Copts, they've also apparently abandoned their heritage of diaconal censing in favor of "blowing smoke".
I was looking at photos of an ordination to the priesthood.  The deacon to be ordained priest was vested only in tonia and orarion.  Also looking at dozens of photos of Liturgy in the Coptic Catholic Patriarchal Cathedral all deacons wore the tonia and orarion, altar boys wore only the tonia.  Most of the Eastern Catholic Churches unfortunately only confer minor orders on those headed to the diaconate/presbyterate.  The Chaldeans and Maronites seem to be the exception and ordain subdeacons for parishes.

Were they all wearing them in the fashion of the deacon?
Yep, none crossed, none on right shoulder.

It's interesting how they try to keep a foot in the modern Coptic Orthodox world, right down to picking up our newly evolved liturgical irregularities that came long after they left us for Rome.  If they really think that we have fallen away from the Church, and being in the Church means being in communion with the Bishop of Rome, shouldn't they leave what I freely admit are our mistakes developed after we parted ways with them (like the stupid ban on diaconal censing or the resulting stupidity of blowing smoke)?  Don't tell me they've picked up CCM and Joel Osteen in the Bible study groups too!  :laugh:

It's a weird place to be, and I wonder how -- given the removal over time of whatever motivated the various unions with Rome -- groups like the Eastern Catholics justify to themselves not returning to the Church.

I would guess most of them, like myself, believe that the Bishop of Rome has a special Christ appointed role in relation to his brother bishops.  Since the Orthodox deny this role, beyond one of honorary precedence, to become Orthodox would be dishonest.

Then why do you want to act Orthodox? Something's missing from your explanation. If the Pope is what matters for you, then why not just submit to the shape of church developed by that See? On the other hand, if the Orthodox faith and practice are compelling for you, then how can you easily dismiss the Church from which they come? Again I say it must be a weird space to occupy, and the behavior of the Coptic Catholics, which Antony highlights, seems to illustrate that compellingly.

We don't see ourselves as acting Orthodox.  We are what we believe we have always been, Eastern Christians in union with Rome.  If the Church is to be Catholic, it must be more than the Latin tradition.  My heritage, Slovak Greek Catholic, goes back to SS Cyril and Methodius and I will not give it up just because it causes somebody cognitive dissonance.  I don't easily dismiss the Orthodox Church.  It is because I love her I participate here and elsewhere for better understanding between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.  I believe both can benefit from the other.

So, speaking honestly, do you view those small groups Eastern Christians who were united with Rome at very late dates - sometimes by outright force, as in Kerala, Eritrea and Ethiopia, sometimes through coercion and imperialist intrigue, as in Egypt - to be the native Church in those lands and for us to be schismatics?  If so, I hope you can see how that view presents a number of problems, both historical and ecclesiological.
Not at all, but I reject the idea that if an Eastern Christian decides for Rome they should give up their own Rite and become Latin as Porter suggests.

I see.  I do think it silly though that Coptic Catholics are adopting modern Coptic Orthodox practices that developed long after they broke communion with us.  Wouldn't you agree?

And again, I think it just exposes an attitude of "the Orthodox are right, and we look to them; however, they are 'in the wrong'." A legalistic, authoritarian paradigm that, in my opinion, amounts to self-imposed cognitive dissonance and should lend itself pretty well to someone in the paradigm having a moment where he realizes this is a head game. If the Orthodox faith and practice is right, then its source in Heaven is also proved right.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2017, 10:33:43 PM »
AN: "I see.  I do think it silly though that Coptic Catholics are adopting modern Coptic Orthodox practices that developed long after they broke communion with us.  Wouldn't you agree?"

Yes, it would be preferable to keep the more ancient practice.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 10:34:10 PM by Deacon Lance »
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2017, 10:41:25 PM »
AN: "I see.  I do think it silly though that Coptic Catholics are adopting modern Coptic Orthodox practices that developed long after they broke communion with us.  Wouldn't you agree?"

Yes, it would be preferable to keep the more ancient practice.

Okay.  Glad we're on the same page about that, at least.  It seems to me that - similar to what Porter is saying - they're playing a mental game with themselves.  They ape our practice because they want to believe that they are still a part of us in some way, when they are not.  They have left us.  It's like a man who has left his wife to marry his mistress trying to come home for Thanksgiving or something and pretend he's still married to his wife in some way.  We are not one Church with Rome or with them.  Blood is not thicker than Holy Myron.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 10:42:28 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2017, 01:22:22 AM »
Hey, Antonious, I'd like to ask you a question about a specific matter which you probably can answer well, but it must be in private. I can't PM you.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Relations between Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholics?
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2017, 04:11:57 PM »
Hey, Antonious, I'd like to ask you a question about a specific matter which you probably can answer well, but it must be in private. I can't PM you.

Try it now.  I don't usually do long PMs (I hate them actually) but in your case, kid, I'll make an exception!  :)
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.