Author Topic: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here  (Read 4092 times)

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Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #90 on: July 14, 2017, 01:54:52 PM »
I never said that LCMS was the same as 35 different Churches. I said that we are in full Altar Fellowship with 35 Lutheran Churches in the world. An example is the Lutheran Church of Australia.

You've always used this in contrast to the supposed fragmentation of Orthodoxy, so your tendency is obvious and you do need to provide a source.

I never said Orthodoxy was more or less fragmented than Lutheranism. And there are about 8 million LCMS in the USA. You want to verify that, look it up. I have neither time nor inclination to back up something I know to be true.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #91 on: July 14, 2017, 01:59:46 PM »
I never said that LCMS was the same as 35 different Churches. I said that we are in full Altar Fellowship with 35 Lutheran Churches in the world. An example is the Lutheran Church of Australia.

You've always used this in contrast to the supposed fragmentation of Orthodoxy, so your tendency is obvious and you do need to provide a source.

I never said Orthodoxy was more or less fragmented than Lutheranism. And there are about 8 million LCMS in the USA. You want to verify that, look it up. I have neither time nor inclination to back up something I know to be true.

The claim I'm questioning is that there are less Orthodox than LCMS. However, according to the LCMS leadership, you are wrong by a huge, huge margin; they claim 2 million members, which is probably inflated. Of Orthodox in America, there may be 6 million. Regardless, my original point that outnumbering Orthodox in America is no great feat still stands.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 02:00:37 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Agabus

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #92 on: July 14, 2017, 02:22:00 PM »
I never said that LCMS was the same as 35 different Churches. I said that we are in full Altar Fellowship with 35 Lutheran Churches in the world. An example is the Lutheran Church of Australia.

You've always used this in contrast to the supposed fragmentation of Orthodoxy, so your tendency is obvious and you do need to provide a source.

I never said Orthodoxy was more or less fragmented than Lutheranism. And there are about 8 million LCMS in the USA. You want to verify that, look it up. I have neither time nor inclination to back up something I know to be true.

The claim I'm questioning is that there are less Orthodox than LCMS. However, according to the LCMS leadership, you are wrong by a huge, huge margin; they claim 2 million members, which is probably inflated. Of Orthodox in America, there may be 6 million. Regardless, my original point that outnumbering Orthodox in America is no great feat still stands.

Porter's right on the LCMS numbers. Per the Association of Religion Data Archives, LCMS has never broken the three million members mark and —  as of 2010, the last year they have data for — currently stands at a little less than 2.3 million.

I feel like someone would have noticed it if six million new people, a little under two percent of the total population, joined a church over the last seven years.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 02:26:24 PM by Agabus »
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #93 on: July 14, 2017, 02:22:35 PM »
LCMS themselves released data just this year.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #94 on: July 14, 2017, 02:24:14 PM »
Then that is my own mistake. Acknowledged,  but also irrelevant.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #95 on: July 14, 2017, 02:26:40 PM »
The idea of Lutherans or Orthodoxy being more or less divided one over another is not a claim I ever made. Both are horridly divided.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #96 on: July 14, 2017, 02:27:34 PM »
Then that is my own mistake. Acknowledged,  but also irrelevant.

The fact you're inflating your numbers by a factor of four is "irrelevant" to your claim you're a big church? Granted, you're bigger than I would have expected for a denomination that has views so strident they make the Southern Baptists seem mainline, but you can't say such wild inaccuracy in the very basis of your claim is "irrelevant."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Agabus

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #97 on: July 14, 2017, 02:28:42 PM »
Then that is my own mistake. Acknowledged,  but also irrelevant.

I'd side with you on the larger point that LCMS isn't a micro-denomination in the U.S. by any measure of religious demography. The total number of churches averages out to something close to two for every county in the country.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #98 on: July 14, 2017, 02:29:29 PM »
The idea of Lutherans or Orthodoxy being more or less divided one over another is not a claim I ever made. Both are horridly divided.

You've brought it up very regularly since you began here, that the LCMS and its 35 ghost sisters amount to a unified true church in contrast to the many "divided" Orthodox "denominations." Maybe we've hammered some sense into you and you're rethinking that strategy.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #99 on: July 14, 2017, 02:31:51 PM »
Again, the numbers are not, and never were, the point, though I admit to being wrong. The point is that I am accused of claiming that Lutherans are less divided than Orthodox. I never said this. Our views are not much more conservative than the Orthodox. To say they are is to be a liar. I recommend Confession.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #100 on: July 14, 2017, 02:33:34 PM »
Whenever I mention the 35, it is usually in the sense of how closed-Communion we are.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 02:33:49 PM by Diego »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #101 on: July 14, 2017, 02:36:28 PM »
Again, the numbers are not, and never were, the point, though I admit to being wrong. The point is that I am accused of claiming that Lutherans are less divided than Orthodox. I never said this. Our views are not much more conservative than the Orthodox. To say they are is to be a liar. I recommend Confession.

How on earth could "numbers [not be] the point" when your claim was the size of your denomination?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline WPM

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #102 on: July 14, 2017, 02:37:34 PM »
Looks like the culmination of a uncomfortable situation.
Learn meditation.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #103 on: July 14, 2017, 02:37:59 PM »
Whenever I mention the 35, it is usually in the sense of how closed-Communion we are.

It's immaterial, since you just plainly stated again a few minutes ago: "Orthodoxy [is] ... horribly divided." That kind of accusation is what's the problem.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #104 on: July 14, 2017, 02:39:14 PM »
Again, that was not the point, although I was wrong. So? We were talking about the division of Churches. And Orthodoxy is divided. Then, so are we. Your point?

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #105 on: July 14, 2017, 02:41:14 PM »
Find me a time in the last decade when ALL 15 Churches have simultaneously been in Communion with each other for more than five minutes.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 02:41:39 PM by Diego »

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #106 on: July 14, 2017, 02:42:51 PM »
And does not even mention the OO or the Assyrians. Lutherans are just as bad, but we admit it.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 02:43:38 PM by Diego »

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #107 on: July 14, 2017, 02:44:11 PM »
Find me a time in the last decade when ALL 15 Churches have simultaneously been in Communion with each other for more than five minutes.

lol
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #108 on: July 14, 2017, 02:45:34 PM »
And does not even mention the OO or the Assyrians. Lutherans are just as bad, but we admit it.

You can't lump in "OO or the Assyrians" with EO to make this point and then talk about how the OO are heretics to make another point.  If you want to make a point against Eastern Orthodoxy, stick with Eastern Orthodoxy. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #109 on: July 14, 2017, 02:46:30 PM »
The Church is not divided into denominations. It would be one thing if you'd point to our actual schisms and ask for explanation. It's quite another to do as you've been doing and claim we are 15 different groups, we don't commune each other, blah blah blah. What is your allergy to learning basic facts?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #110 on: July 14, 2017, 03:07:15 PM »
I am merely pointing out that you do not commune with each other. And then you have the Old Calendarists, the New Calendarists, the Old Believers... Now, the Lutherans are all one denomination, roughly, called "Lutheran". And we are a divided bunch. But so are all of you. I unfortunately have family matters to which I must attend, so all of you, take care.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #111 on: July 14, 2017, 03:09:00 PM »
I am merely pointing out that you do not commune with each other.

How did you come to this conclusion?

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #112 on: July 14, 2017, 03:18:00 PM »
Simple: Read the paper. The last so-called "Orthodox Ecumenical Council" was missing FOUR Churches, including the largest, Russia. And they do not all commune with each other, and often do not, though Priests may quietly allow it.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #113 on: July 14, 2017, 03:21:04 PM »
Simple: Read the paper. The last so-called "Orthodox Ecumenical Council" was missing FOUR Churches, including the largest, Russia. And they do not all commune with each other, and often do not, though Priests may quietly allow it.

Nothing to do with communion. Our hierarchs are free to protest each other's proposals. We're a living Church. Again, everyone's in communion that was invited, whether or not they showed up.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 03:23:48 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #114 on: July 14, 2017, 03:22:29 PM »
Lutherans eat their own poop. It's a fact.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #115 on: July 14, 2017, 03:25:28 PM »
The last Ecumenical Council was in the 8th, 9th, or 14th century; the recent one was not considered Ecumenical. This also has nothing to do with communion. None of the Ecumenical Councils had representation from every local Church. A number of them had no direct representation from the entire western half of the EO/RC world; few had representation from anywhere east of Palestine/Syria. Administrative squabbles and political maneuvering are not necessarily related to communion. For example, Constantinople does not recognize the autocephaly of the OCA, but that doesn't mean that members of the OCA couldn't receive communion in parishes under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #116 on: July 14, 2017, 03:26:34 PM »
The last Ecumenical Council was in the 8th, 9th, or 14th century; the recent one was not considered Ecumenical. This also has nothing to do with communion. None of the Ecumenical Councils had representation from every local Church. A number of them had no direct representation from the entire western half of the EO/RC world; few had representation from anywhere east of Palestine/Syria. Administrative squabbles and political maneuvering are not necessarily related to communion. For example, Constantinople does not recognize the autocephaly of the OCA, but that doesn't mean that members of the OCA couldn't receive communion in parishes under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

We also concelebrate. We're truly all one church.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 03:27:10 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #117 on: July 14, 2017, 03:36:17 PM »
I am merely pointing out that you do not commune with each other. And then you have the Old Calendarists, the New Calendarists, the Old Believers... Now, the Lutherans are all one denomination, roughly, called "Lutheran". And we are a divided bunch. But so are all of you. I unfortunately have family matters to which I must attend, so all of you, take care.
TBH, I don't think you have any understanding of how the Orthodox Church operates. Instead of making statements that demonstrate ignorance, perhaps you should try to actually learn something.
God bless!

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #118 on: July 14, 2017, 03:44:19 PM »
You mean Lutheran LCMS Ministries? ...
Learn meditation.

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #119 on: July 14, 2017, 03:50:44 PM »
I am merely pointing out that you do not commune with each other. And then you have the Old Calendarists, the New Calendarists, the Old Believers... Now, the Lutherans are all one denomination, roughly, called "Lutheran". And we are a divided bunch. But so are all of you. I unfortunately have family matters to which I must attend, so all of you, take care.

This is not true.  Right now, Jerusalem and Antioch are not in direct communion due to a dispute, but someone from the Jerusalem Church could go to an Antiochian church and receive communion if in Syria, Lebanon or the US; indeed this is most likely where they would likely go being Arabic speakers.

The only thing the break in communion means is that the bishops of Antioch will not concelebrate with the bishops of Jerusalem.

All of the 15 or so canonical EO churches have full intercommunion at the level of the parishioner.

Also, if a priest from Antioch wanted to move to the church of Jerusalem or vice versa, while this would burn his bridges at his former church in a big way, it would nott be impossible; the Patriarchates of Antioch and Jerusalem regard each others clergy and sacraments as valid and legitimate.

Its simply the bishops will not concelebrate a hierarchical divine liturgy until the issue of Jerusalem having opened a parish in Qatar is addressed.
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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #120 on: July 14, 2017, 03:51:20 PM »
I am merely pointing out that you do not commune with each other. And then you have the Old Calendarists, the New Calendarists, the Old Believers... Now, the Lutherans are all one denomination, roughly, called "Lutheran". And we are a divided bunch. But so are all of you. I unfortunately have family matters to which I must attend, so all of you, take care.
TBH, I don't think you have any understanding of how the Orthodox Church operates. Instead of making statements that demonstrate ignorance, perhaps you should try to actually learn something.

+1
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #121 on: July 14, 2017, 03:53:28 PM »
The last Ecumenical Council was in the 8th, 9th, or 14th century; the recent one was not considered Ecumenical. This also has nothing to do with communion. None of the Ecumenical Councils had representation from every local Church. A number of them had no direct representation from the entire western half of the EO/RC world; few had representation from anywhere east of Palestine/Syria. Administrative squabbles and political maneuvering are not necessarily related to communion. For example, Constantinople does not recognize the autocephaly of the OCA, but that doesn't mean that members of the OCA couldn't receive communion in parishes under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

We also concelebrate. We're truly all one church.

Precisely.

To the very limited extent that it matters, I believe Constantinople considers the OCA to still be part of the Moscow Patriarchate, or the responsibility of it (their whole argument was that the MP could not grant the OCA autocephaly on its own without the EP approving).
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #122 on: July 14, 2017, 03:59:48 PM »
The last Ecumenical Council was in the 8th, 9th, or 14th century; the recent one was not considered Ecumenical. This also has nothing to do with communion. None of the Ecumenical Councils had representation from every local Church. A number of them had no direct representation from the entire western half of the EO/RC world; few had representation from anywhere east of Palestine/Syria. Administrative squabbles and political maneuvering are not necessarily related to communion. For example, Constantinople does not recognize the autocephaly of the OCA, but that doesn't mean that members of the OCA couldn't receive communion in parishes under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

We also concelebrate. We're truly all one church.

Precisely.

To the very limited extent that it matters, I believe Constantinople considers the OCA to still be part of the Moscow Patriarchate, or the responsibility of it (their whole argument was that the MP could not grant the OCA autocephaly on its own without the EP approving).

Honestly, it's not as tho we're alone in wondering precisely what weight the emergency decision of a patriarch under Soviet duress should continue to have. ROCOR resumed relations with the MP. I understand there are vast conspiracy theories that the EP alone stands in the way of supposed OCA birthright, but it's just too nonsensical as it ignores so many details of American Orthodoxy. I think it is the kind of myth that grows from a real concern (the future of American Orthodoxy) and takes on a life beyond mere symbol.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #123 on: July 18, 2017, 07:56:46 PM »
The last Ecumenical Council was in the 8th, 9th, or 14th century; the recent one was not considered Ecumenical. This also has nothing to do with communion. None of the Ecumenical Councils had representation from every local Church. A number of them had no direct representation from the entire western half of the EO/RC world; few had representation from anywhere east of Palestine/Syria. Administrative squabbles and political maneuvering are not necessarily related to communion. For example, Constantinople does not recognize the autocephaly of the OCA, but that doesn't mean that members of the OCA couldn't receive communion in parishes under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

We also concelebrate. We're truly all one church.

Precisely.

To the very limited extent that it matters, I believe Constantinople considers the OCA to still be part of the Moscow Patriarchate, or the responsibility of it (their whole argument was that the MP could not grant the OCA autocephaly on its own without the EP approving).

Honestly, it's not as tho we're alone in wondering precisely what weight the emergency decision of a patriarch under Soviet duress should continue to have. ROCOR resumed relations with the MP. I understand there are vast conspiracy theories that the EP alone stands in the way of supposed OCA birthright, but it's just too nonsensical as it ignores so many details of American Orthodoxy. I think it is the kind of myth that grows from a real concern (the future of American Orthodoxy) and takes on a life beyond mere symbol.

The OCA has a Tomos of Autocephaly from Moscow dating from around 1971 or thereabouts in which the MP declared the OCA autocephalous.  https://oca.org/history-archives/tomos-of-autocephaly

Thus, the canonical status of the OCA is completely different from that of ROCOR before their reunion with the MP.   Right now, ROCOR is an autonomous church under the Moscow Patriarchate, wheereas previously they were only occasionally in communion with non-old Calendarist jurisdictions (with which they severed communion on reuniting with the MP).

So we're pretty far past the emergency action of His Holiness St. Tikhon at this point.  The OCA is entirely autocephalous, in communion with all of the other autocephalous churches, and is simply in the position of not having its autocephaly universally recognized, and this simply means a lack of direct participation at events such as the Council of Crete.  So from an EP perspective, the EP might view it as a self-ruling part of the MP (and probably does, given that Constantinople is trying to promote the idea that they uniquely can grant and revoke autocephaly).
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #124 on: July 18, 2017, 08:31:11 PM »
The last Ecumenical Council was in the 8th, 9th, or 14th century; the recent one was not considered Ecumenical. This also has nothing to do with communion. None of the Ecumenical Councils had representation from every local Church. A number of them had no direct representation from the entire western half of the EO/RC world; few had representation from anywhere east of Palestine/Syria. Administrative squabbles and political maneuvering are not necessarily related to communion. For example, Constantinople does not recognize the autocephaly of the OCA, but that doesn't mean that members of the OCA couldn't receive communion in parishes under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

We also concelebrate. We're truly all one church.

Precisely.

To the very limited extent that it matters, I believe Constantinople considers the OCA to still be part of the Moscow Patriarchate, or the responsibility of it (their whole argument was that the MP could not grant the OCA autocephaly on its own without the EP approving).

Honestly, it's not as tho we're alone in wondering precisely what weight the emergency decision of a patriarch under Soviet duress should continue to have. ROCOR resumed relations with the MP. I understand there are vast conspiracy theories that the EP alone stands in the way of supposed OCA birthright, but it's just too nonsensical as it ignores so many details of American Orthodoxy. I think it is the kind of myth that grows from a real concern (the future of American Orthodoxy) and takes on a life beyond mere symbol.
What "emergency decision of a patriarch" are you talking about?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #125 on: July 18, 2017, 08:33:46 PM »
The last Ecumenical Council was in the 8th, 9th, or 14th century; the recent one was not considered Ecumenical. This also has nothing to do with communion. None of the Ecumenical Councils had representation from every local Church. A number of them had no direct representation from the entire western half of the EO/RC world; few had representation from anywhere east of Palestine/Syria. Administrative squabbles and political maneuvering are not necessarily related to communion. For example, Constantinople does not recognize the autocephaly of the OCA, but that doesn't mean that members of the OCA couldn't receive communion in parishes under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

We also concelebrate. We're truly all one church.

Precisely.

To the very limited extent that it matters, I believe Constantinople considers the OCA to still be part of the Moscow Patriarchate, or the responsibility of it (their whole argument was that the MP could not grant the OCA autocephaly on its own without the EP approving).

Honestly, it's not as tho we're alone in wondering precisely what weight the emergency decision of a patriarch under Soviet duress should continue to have. ROCOR resumed relations with the MP. I understand there are vast conspiracy theories that the EP alone stands in the way of supposed OCA birthright, but it's just too nonsensical as it ignores so many details of American Orthodoxy. I think it is the kind of myth that grows from a real concern (the future of American Orthodoxy) and takes on a life beyond mere symbol.
What "emergency decision of a patriarch" are you talking about?

The one you worship.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #126 on: July 18, 2017, 08:34:47 PM »
Simple: Read the paper. The last so-called "Orthodox Ecumenical Council" was missing FOUR Churches, including the largest, Russia. And they do not all commune with each other, and often do not, though Priests may quietly allow it.
We all commune with each other-no priest is quiet about that at all...they proclaim it at the reading of the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #127 on: July 18, 2017, 08:35:39 PM »
The last Ecumenical Council was in the 8th, 9th, or 14th century; the recent one was not considered Ecumenical. This also has nothing to do with communion. None of the Ecumenical Councils had representation from every local Church. A number of them had no direct representation from the entire western half of the EO/RC world; few had representation from anywhere east of Palestine/Syria. Administrative squabbles and political maneuvering are not necessarily related to communion. For example, Constantinople does not recognize the autocephaly of the OCA, but that doesn't mean that members of the OCA couldn't receive communion in parishes under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

We also concelebrate. We're truly all one church.

Precisely.

To the very limited extent that it matters, I believe Constantinople considers the OCA to still be part of the Moscow Patriarchate, or the responsibility of it (their whole argument was that the MP could not grant the OCA autocephaly on its own without the EP approving).

Honestly, it's not as tho we're alone in wondering precisely what weight the emergency decision of a patriarch under Soviet duress should continue to have. ROCOR resumed relations with the MP. I understand there are vast conspiracy theories that the EP alone stands in the way of supposed OCA birthright, but it's just too nonsensical as it ignores so many details of American Orthodoxy. I think it is the kind of myth that grows from a real concern (the future of American Orthodoxy) and takes on a life beyond mere symbol.
What "emergency decision of a patriarch" are you talking about?

The one you worship.
More idiocy than usual I see. Can't name it, can you....
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #128 on: July 18, 2017, 08:47:42 PM »
The last Ecumenical Council was in the 8th, 9th, or 14th century; the recent one was not considered Ecumenical. This also has nothing to do with communion. None of the Ecumenical Councils had representation from every local Church. A number of them had no direct representation from the entire western half of the EO/RC world; few had representation from anywhere east of Palestine/Syria. Administrative squabbles and political maneuvering are not necessarily related to communion. For example, Constantinople does not recognize the autocephaly of the OCA, but that doesn't mean that members of the OCA couldn't receive communion in parishes under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

We also concelebrate. We're truly all one church.

Precisely.

To the very limited extent that it matters, I believe Constantinople considers the OCA to still be part of the Moscow Patriarchate, or the responsibility of it (their whole argument was that the MP could not grant the OCA autocephaly on its own without the EP approving).

Honestly, it's not as tho we're alone in wondering precisely what weight the emergency decision of a patriarch under Soviet duress should continue to have. ROCOR resumed relations with the MP. I understand there are vast conspiracy theories that the EP alone stands in the way of supposed OCA birthright, but it's just too nonsensical as it ignores so many details of American Orthodoxy. I think it is the kind of myth that grows from a real concern (the future of American Orthodoxy) and takes on a life beyond mere symbol.
What "emergency decision of a patriarch" are you talking about?

The one you worship.
More idiocy than usual I see. Can't name it, can you....

I'm talking about the Tomos, which I consider the fulfillment of St. Tikhon's actions. Almost no act of the Church in Russia should be considered legitimate during the Soviet period.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #129 on: July 18, 2017, 10:28:54 PM »
The last Ecumenical Council was in the 8th, 9th, or 14th century; the recent one was not considered Ecumenical. This also has nothing to do with communion. None of the Ecumenical Councils had representation from every local Church. A number of them had no direct representation from the entire western half of the EO/RC world; few had representation from anywhere east of Palestine/Syria. Administrative squabbles and political maneuvering are not necessarily related to communion. For example, Constantinople does not recognize the autocephaly of the OCA, but that doesn't mean that members of the OCA couldn't receive communion in parishes under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

We also concelebrate. We're truly all one church.

Precisely.

To the very limited extent that it matters, I believe Constantinople considers the OCA to still be part of the Moscow Patriarchate, or the responsibility of it (their whole argument was that the MP could not grant the OCA autocephaly on its own without the EP approving).

Honestly, it's not as tho we're alone in wondering precisely what weight the emergency decision of a patriarch under Soviet duress should continue to have. ROCOR resumed relations with the MP. I understand there are vast conspiracy theories that the EP alone stands in the way of supposed OCA birthright, but it's just too nonsensical as it ignores so many details of American Orthodoxy. I think it is the kind of myth that grows from a real concern (the future of American Orthodoxy) and takes on a life beyond mere symbol.
What "emergency decision of a patriarch" are you talking about?

The one you worship.
More idiocy than usual I see. Can't name it, can you....

I'm talking about the Tomos, which I consider the fulfillment of St. Tikhon's actions. Almost no act of the Church in Russia should be considered legitimate during the Soviet period.
And we should consider any act of the Church of Constantinople legitimate since 1453 why?

The Tomos, besides fulfilling the ukaze of Patriarch St. Tikhon, also fulfills the dreams not only of Archbishop St. Tikhon of the Aleutians and All North America but also of his predecessor (in North America and Moscow) Abp/Met. St. Innocent of Enlightener of Alaska

The Soviets fell in 1991. A few more years and the canon of limitations runs out to dispute the Tomos.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 10:31:30 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #130 on: July 18, 2017, 11:19:25 PM »
The last Ecumenical Council was in the 8th, 9th, or 14th century; the recent one was not considered Ecumenical. This also has nothing to do with communion. None of the Ecumenical Councils had representation from every local Church. A number of them had no direct representation from the entire western half of the EO/RC world; few had representation from anywhere east of Palestine/Syria. Administrative squabbles and political maneuvering are not necessarily related to communion. For example, Constantinople does not recognize the autocephaly of the OCA, but that doesn't mean that members of the OCA couldn't receive communion in parishes under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

We also concelebrate. We're truly all one church.

Precisely.

To the very limited extent that it matters, I believe Constantinople considers the OCA to still be part of the Moscow Patriarchate, or the responsibility of it (their whole argument was that the MP could not grant the OCA autocephaly on its own without the EP approving).

Honestly, it's not as tho we're alone in wondering precisely what weight the emergency decision of a patriarch under Soviet duress should continue to have. ROCOR resumed relations with the MP. I understand there are vast conspiracy theories that the EP alone stands in the way of supposed OCA birthright, but it's just too nonsensical as it ignores so many details of American Orthodoxy. I think it is the kind of myth that grows from a real concern (the future of American Orthodoxy) and takes on a life beyond mere symbol.
What "emergency decision of a patriarch" are you talking about?

The one you worship.
More idiocy than usual I see. Can't name it, can you....

I'm talking about the Tomos, which I consider the fulfillment of St. Tikhon's actions. Almost no act of the Church in Russia should be considered legitimate during the Soviet period.
And we should consider any act of the Church of Constantinople legitimate since 1453 why?

What difference does it make to you?

And are you really this unfamiliar with Soviet Russia? I've been assuming you're about my age, but I'm starting to wonder. The KGB didn't mess around.

Quote
The Tomos, besides fulfilling the ukaze of Patriarch St. Tikhon, also fulfills the dreams not only of Archbishop St. Tikhon of the Aleutians and All North America but also of his predecessor (in North America and Moscow) Abp/Met. St. Innocent of Enlightener of Alaska

Then I'm sure when OCA returns with due humility to the newly-refreshed Church of Russia, the Church can sit in council on that very matter.

Quote
The Soviets fell in 1991. A few more years and the canon of limitations runs out to dispute the Tomos.

The 'Better Call Saul' method of gaining autonomy?

But above all, you do realize that autonomy does any church very little good if they can't maintain good standing with the churches of God? Specifically, in relation to this dream you have for OCA, clinging to this legalism at the expense of relationships with the Orthodox Churches in America (yup, it's more than a brand name) is going to ruin any hope of unifying much of anybody under your lead. You need to cooperate the same as any other jurisdiction.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Online Mor Ephrem

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #131 on: July 18, 2017, 11:39:47 PM »
Then I'm sure when OCA returns with due humility to the newly-refreshed Church of Russia...

Why should they return?  "The newly-refreshed Church of Russia" continues to regard them as autocephalous, as do several other Churches. 

Quote
But above all, you do realize that autonomy does any church very little good if they can't maintain good standing with the churches of God?

That sword cuts both ways. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #132 on: July 19, 2017, 10:57:33 AM »
What difference does it make to you?

And are you really this unfamiliar with Soviet Russia? I've been assuming you're about my age, but I'm starting to wonder. The KGB didn't mess around.

And I suppose the Sublime Porte did lots of messing around?

I don't think, realistically, the jurisdictional unification of the Church in America will be accomplished by everyone joining the OCA. It would probably be a new structure and not necessarily autocephalous. But this angle of argumentation you're employing, as if the Patriarchate holed up in an Istanbul ghetto has been impervious to hostile state interference, is not serious.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #133 on: July 19, 2017, 05:46:58 PM »
The last Ecumenical Council was in the 8th, 9th, or 14th century; the recent one was not considered Ecumenical. This also has nothing to do with communion. None of the Ecumenical Councils had representation from every local Church. A number of them had no direct representation from the entire western half of the EO/RC world; few had representation from anywhere east of Palestine/Syria. Administrative squabbles and political maneuvering are not necessarily related to communion. For example, Constantinople does not recognize the autocephaly of the OCA, but that doesn't mean that members of the OCA couldn't receive communion in parishes under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

We also concelebrate. We're truly all one church.

Precisely.

To the very limited extent that it matters, I believe Constantinople considers the OCA to still be part of the Moscow Patriarchate, or the responsibility of it (their whole argument was that the MP could not grant the OCA autocephaly on its own without the EP approving).

Honestly, it's not as tho we're alone in wondering precisely what weight the emergency decision of a patriarch under Soviet duress should continue to have. ROCOR resumed relations with the MP. I understand there are vast conspiracy theories that the EP alone stands in the way of supposed OCA birthright, but it's just too nonsensical as it ignores so many details of American Orthodoxy. I think it is the kind of myth that grows from a real concern (the future of American Orthodoxy) and takes on a life beyond mere symbol.
What "emergency decision of a patriarch" are you talking about?

The one you worship.
More idiocy than usual I see. Can't name it, can you....

I'm talking about the Tomos, which I consider the fulfillment of St. Tikhon's actions. Almost no act of the Church in Russia should be considered legitimate during the Soviet period.
And we should consider any act of the Church of Constantinople legitimate since 1453 why?

What difference does it make to you?

And are you really this unfamiliar with Soviet Russia? I've been assuming you're about my age, but I'm starting to wonder. The KGB didn't mess around.
Pikers compared to the Turks.

The Phanar has no emperor, no senate but it does have Turkish overlords in abundance. So again, by your standard, why should any act of the Phanar be considered legitimate since 1453?

ROCOR makes your same assERtion (always interesting to see Greek and Russian chauvinists to agree), but they never explain why the KGB would force the PoM to grant autocephaly to North America after half a century of trying to get loyalty oaths from Americans through the Church. Nor why the negotiators went to such lengths to cut out the KGB minders out of the process as much as possible.
Quote
The Tomos, besides fulfilling the ukaze of Patriarch St. Tikhon, also fulfills the dreams not only of Archbishop St. Tikhon of the Aleutians and All North America but also of his predecessor (in North America and Moscow) Abp/Met. St. Innocent of Enlightener of Alaska

Then I'm sure when OCA returns with due humility to the newly-refreshed Church of Russia, the Church can sit in council on that very matter.
Won't happen-in the very least as to deny the Phanar something to throw in Moscow's face.

In less than 3 years, the canon of limitations will moot the question.

Humility-like Abp. Spyridon?

Quote
The Soviets fell in 1991. A few more years and the canon of limitations runs out to dispute the Tomos.

The 'Better Call Saul' method of gaining autonomy?
Never watched the show.

But above all, you do realize that autonomy does any church very little good if they can't maintain good standing with the churches of God? Specifically, in relation to this dream you have for OCA, clinging to this legalism at the expense of relationships with the Orthodox Churches in America (yup, it's more than a brand name) is going to ruin any hope of unifying much of anybody under your lead. You need to cooperate the same as any other jurisdiction.
LOL. Says the ethnarch's lap attack dog. You might advise your master first.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #134 on: July 19, 2017, 05:49:27 PM »
ROCOR makes your same assERtion (always interesting to see Greek and Russian chauvinists to agree), but they never explain why the KGB would force the PoM to grant autocephaly to North America after half a century of trying to get loyalty oaths from Americans through the Church. Nor why the negotiators went to such lengths to cut out the KGB minders out of the process as much as possible.

You know, when one's argument has to take on a form as convoluted and improbable as all this, then one may not be on great footing. I'd take another look at the problem with a different mindset, if I were you.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy