Author Topic: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here  (Read 3718 times)

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #225 on: August 08, 2017, 11:13:50 AM »
My own understanding is that EVERY Church has erred, including my own, and the four mentioned by the C of E, and of course, the C of E itself. The borderline Pelagianism in both the Orthodox and Roman Churches, and the extreme Monergism of the Lutherans, are evidence of this.

"My church sucks, so everyone else's church must suck.  Including Jesus' Church.  Boy, does that one suck."

That is not what I said. In fact, the Church exists wherever the Word of God is truly preached, and the Sacraments are duly and rightly administered.

Who gets to judge that?
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #226 on: August 08, 2017, 11:23:25 AM »
The LCMS has never ordained females. Where are you getting this?


Sorry, I confused you with the SBC, another disagreeable denomination of congregational polity.


While some churches in the SBC may ordain women, it's a raaaaaare quirk that happens only because membership is defined by who gives dues to the cooperative program, not allegiance to a central denominational hierarchy. The official confessional/reactionary social statement of the denomination (and the attitudes of the vast, vast majority of those in the pews) clearly says that the office of pastor is limited to men.

« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 11:23:54 AM by Agabus »
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Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #227 on: August 08, 2017, 11:24:14 AM »
MOR, only Christ can judge that. Certainly you cannot, and neither can I. No Earthly person can. If one could, we all might as well allow the Pope to do it, or even the "Prophet, Seer, and Revelator" of the Salt Lake LDS Church, who claims a status that is quite similar to what the Pope claims for himself.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 11:25:21 AM by Diego »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #228 on: August 08, 2017, 11:32:33 AM »
MOR, only Christ can judge that. Certainly you cannot, and neither can I. No Earthly person can. If one could, we all might as well allow the Pope to do it, or even the "Prophet, Seer, and Revelator" of the Salt Lake LDS Church, who claims a status that is quite similar to what the Pope claims for himself.

What a useless "Christ" you believe in.
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Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #229 on: August 08, 2017, 11:40:17 AM »
MOR, only Christ can judge that. Certainly you cannot, and neither can I. No Earthly person can. If one could, we all might as well allow the Pope to do it, or even the "Prophet, Seer, and Revelator" of the Salt Lake LDS Church, who claims a status that is quite similar to what the Pope claims for himself.

What a useless "Christ" you believe in.

A non-response, that.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #230 on: August 08, 2017, 12:07:33 PM »
MOR, only Christ can judge that. Certainly you cannot, and neither can I. No Earthly person can. If one could, we all might as well allow the Pope to do it, or even the "Prophet, Seer, and Revelator" of the Salt Lake LDS Church, who claims a status that is quite similar to what the Pope claims for himself.

What a useless "Christ" you believe in.

A non-response, that.

Only because you lack any intellectual strength.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #231 on: August 08, 2017, 12:31:37 PM »
MOR, only Christ can judge that. Certainly you cannot, and neither can I. No Earthly person can. If one could, we all might as well allow the Pope to do it, or even the "Prophet, Seer, and Revelator" of the Salt Lake LDS Church, who claims a status that is quite similar to what the Pope claims for himself.
We can't know if sacraments are duly and rightly administered? Does this mean we don't know if we are partakers of Christ or not? That's rather depressing...
God bless!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #232 on: August 08, 2017, 12:44:14 PM »
MOR, only Christ can judge that. Certainly you cannot, and neither can I. No Earthly person can. If one could, we all might as well allow the Pope to do it, or even the "Prophet, Seer, and Revelator" of the Salt Lake LDS Church, who claims a status that is quite similar to what the Pope claims for himself.
We can't know if sacraments are duly and rightly administered? Does this mean we don't know if we are partakers of Christ or not? That's rather depressing...

Another non-answer, feces-for-gray-matter!
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Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #233 on: August 08, 2017, 01:03:42 PM »
Actually, we can know the Sacraments are rightly administered. That is not the question. What we cannot know is that we belong to a perfect Church, principly because NONE OF THEM ARE.

As far as intellectual strength, MOR, you certainly have in no way indicated that you are particularly bright, or particularly stupid. You are at best, average.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #234 on: August 08, 2017, 01:06:56 PM »
It's just the nature of the Holy Spirit that he can reach only the brightest minds, right, Diego? (Mor is one of the brightest, but that's not the real point.)
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #235 on: August 08, 2017, 01:09:50 PM »
It's just the nature of the Holy Spirit that he can reach only the brightest minds, right, Diego? (Mor is one of the brightest, but that's not the real point.)

MOR has in no way demonstrated potent brilliancy. And the Holy Ghost can reach anyone he wishes. But to state categorically that an individual has been reached is a thing you do not categorically know, and cannot prove.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #236 on: August 08, 2017, 01:12:06 PM »
It's just the nature of the Holy Spirit that he can reach only the brightest minds, right, Diego? (Mor is one of the brightest, but that's not the real point.)

MOR has in no way demonstrated potent brilliancy. And the Holy Ghost can reach anyone he wishes. But to state categorically that an individual has been reached is a thing you do not categorically know, and cannot prove.

I've got all sorts of potency, bro. 
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Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #237 on: August 08, 2017, 01:13:17 PM »
The fact that you would say that to another man indicates some limp-wristedness on your part.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #238 on: August 08, 2017, 01:16:09 PM »
The fact that you would say that to another man indicates some limp-wristedness on your part.

LOL, you're no man.
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Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #239 on: August 08, 2017, 01:17:31 PM »
And you are gay, as your last two posts have indicated, but hey, who is counting?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #240 on: August 08, 2017, 01:19:25 PM »
And you are gay, as your last two posts have indicated, but hey, who is counting?

Apparently you are. 
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Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #241 on: August 08, 2017, 01:20:20 PM »
Not at all. Merely making astute observations.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #242 on: August 08, 2017, 01:27:47 PM »
Well, it has been fun. But I have things of actual value to do now, so I must bid you all a fond adieu for the present. Auf wiedershen!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #243 on: August 08, 2017, 01:31:13 PM »
Not at all. Merely making astute observations.

Making astute indeed. 
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #244 on: August 08, 2017, 02:23:12 PM »
Actually, we can know the Sacraments are rightly administered. That is not the question. What we cannot know is that we belong to a perfect Church, principly because NONE OF THEM ARE.

As far as intellectual strength, MOR, you certainly have in no way indicated that you are particularly bright, or particularly stupid. You are at best, average.
So you don't believe the Church is Christ's spotless Bride?  ???
God bless!

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #245 on: August 08, 2017, 03:11:01 PM »
Not in the sense that you do. After Grand Prince Vladimir became Orthodox in 988, he FORCED the Pagan Rus to be baptised or be put to the sword. Orthodox, Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, and pretty much every other denomination of Christianity have all at one time or other committed outright murder in Christ's name. Ergo, no single denomination can claim to be a spotless Bride of the Christ. Even making the claim implies gross ignorance bordering on rank stupidity.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #246 on: August 08, 2017, 06:55:44 PM »
My own understanding is that EVERY Church has erred, including my own, and the four mentioned by the C of E, and of course, the C of E itself. The borderline Pelagianism in both the Orthodox and Roman Churches, and the extreme Monergism of the Lutherans, are evidence of this.

"My church sucks, so everyone else's church must suck.  Including Jesus' Church.  Boy, does that one suck."

That is not what I said. In fact, the Church exists wherever the Word of God is truly preached, and the Sacraments are duly and rightly administered. To claim that ONE denomination holds this title exclusively is the height of arrogance. Given the fact that the Orthodox are divided into THREE groups (the EO, the OO, and the Assyrian Church [of which there are TWO]), and this does not count the Old Believers and the whole Calendar mess, Orthodoxy has little more claim to be "the True Church" than we do.

No; it is the actual truth, because in the case of all three churches, you have both apostolic succession and a continued focus on Patristic theology; the three churches of the East teach the same doctrine we see expounded in St. Justin Martyr, in the Cappadocians, in St. Augustine, in St. Ignatius, and in the other church fathers.

In contrast, there is no evidence that anyone believed in Lutheranism before Martin Luther.   His teachings directly contradict those of St. Ignatius the Martyr, a disciple of St. John who defined the church as a Eucharistic community centered around the bishop.  For St. Ignatius, the bishop is not optional, a matter of adiaphora, but rather, each bishop represents Christ on Earth in his diocese and acts in persone Christi in celibrating the Eucharist.

What is more, virtually all of the ancient liturgical texts describe the Eucharist as a sacrifice.  I know of no Patristic figure who denies its sacrificial nature.  It is held to be a holy and rational sacrifice.  Luther also acted entirely without precedent in deleting all of the Anaphora except for the Institution Narrative.  These were huge departures from the ancient faith, from the early liturgies and Patristic texts that have come down to us.

~

Thus, I agree it is an error to say that of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, and the Old Calendarists and Old Believers, only one group has it right, and for this reason I support the efforts at ecumenical reunion (the Assyrians, by the way, are not usually counted among the Orthodox, but FYI, the Ancient Church of the East is simply Assyrian former Old Calendarists; the schism only dates from the 1960, and the reunion of the two churches is, from what I here, imminent.  The latest I heard suggest that reunion and a new Catholicos for both churches will happen in the next few years).

In contrast, we can say, based on the manifold departures of Lutheranism from the Apostolic faith, that by your own standards, sadly, Lutheranism is not part of the Church, because five of the seven sacraments are not performed, the sacrificial nature of the Eucharist is denied, and with regards to Soteriology, Luther preached a different Gospel, teaching unfounded and unsupported concepts such as sola fide. 

It pains me to say this, in part because my first godfather, my great uncle Eugene, was a retired minister in the Augustana Synod,, and I loved him very much; he reposed in 1996 before I had heard of Orthodoxy (he was the first loved one that I ever lost).  Much of my ancestry is Protestant, especially Swedish, and thus Lutheran.

But I can take to heart what St. John Maximovitch says, which is to not worry about the salvation of Protestants, because they still have the infinite love of our Lord Jesus Christ to appeal to. 

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #247 on: August 08, 2017, 07:05:26 PM »
Actually, we can know the Sacraments are rightly administered. That is not the question. What we cannot know is that we belong to a perfect Church, principly because NONE OF THEM ARE.

As far as intellectual strength, MOR, you certainly have in no way indicated that you are particularly bright, or particularly stupid. You are at best, average.

Mor is the cleverest man on OCNet, loving and pious.  When my father, memory eternal, reposed, he was the first and only member to PM me condolences.  He has guided my appreciation of the faith and patiently corrected numerous errors on my part over the years I have been on OCNet.

Now, the idea that the Church is imperfect is to be rejected even on the basis of Sola Scriptura, which identifies the Church with the Body of Christ.

And we can identify the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox as being the Church by your own standard of the correct administration of the sacraments.  We administer them correctly, whereas Lutheranism rejects most of them, and teaches two false doctrines concerning the Eucharist (consubstantiality and non-sacrificiality).

Indeed, Martin Luther went so far as to declare the sacrament of Unction, the annointing of the sick with oil, as not a blessing but a curse.

Thus, by your own standards you have excluded Lutheranism from the Church and included Orthodoxy, and amusingly enough, to at least a marginal degree, Roman Catholicism.  Because, setting aside the numerous faults in the Roman church, their sacramental theology and administration of the sacraments is more or less correct, particularly in the Byzantine church, but its hard to argue against even the Tridentine Mass and the rationale for the communion of the laity under one species.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #248 on: August 08, 2017, 07:16:52 PM »
Not in the sense that you do. After Grand Prince Vladimir became Orthodox in 988, he FORCED the Pagan Rus to be baptised or be put to the sword. Orthodox, Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, and pretty much every other denomination of Christianity have all at one time or other committed outright murder in Christ's name. Ergo, no single denomination can claim to be a spotless Bride of the Christ. Even making the claim implies gross ignorance bordering on rank stupidity.

The incidents you describe occurred in local churches.  Local churches are not inherently perfect, but the Catholic Church as a whole is perfect.  The perfection stems from the divinity of Christ to which the imperfect humans who comprise the local churches are united through the sacraments.

The Orthodox Church is the Catholic Church.   Thus, on the whole, it is perfect, even though individual local churches which are affiliated with it have in some cases committed deplorable acts.

Regarding St. Vladimir, however, I believe you are in error; after the baptism of the Russians, Kievan Rus was for some years the only state in Medieval Europe without the death penalty.  And the fact is, several non Christian religions remained in the domain of Kievan Rus, such as the Khazars, converts to Karaite Judaism who inhabit Crimea.  There were also Muslims, Catholics and others, and lingering adherents of Slavic paganism.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #249 on: August 08, 2017, 07:24:02 PM »
Not in the sense that you do. After Grand Prince Vladimir became Orthodox in 988, he FORCED the Pagan Rus to be baptised or be put to the sword. Orthodox, Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, and pretty much every other denomination of Christianity have all at one time or other committed outright murder in Christ's name. Ergo, no single denomination can claim to be a spotless Bride of the Christ. Even making the claim implies gross ignorance bordering on rank stupidity.

When did the divorce occur?  And was Jesus plaintiff or defendant?
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Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #250 on: August 08, 2017, 07:43:49 PM »
Actually, we do not, and never have, taught Consubstantiation. That is only ONE of the foolish things you have said. Since Baptism, Confirmation, Communion, Marriage, the Ordering of clergy, Auricular Confession, and Final Rites are all performed, that means that seven Sacramental Rites are performed. The fact that a Bishop and a Pastor differ only in degree, rather than kind, is obvious from the NT unjunction that Bishops must have only one wife. The fact that your Bishops are celibate is a departure from Apostolic practice.

To say that the murder and rapine engaged in was the sin of Particular Churches, and not THE Church, when ALL of them did it, is pure stupidity run amok.

I will not deny that Luther was too monergistic, especially in shredding the Canon. But, in the other direction, BOTH Orthodoxy and Catholicism skirt the edges of Pelagianism. So...
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 07:51:47 PM by Diego »

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #251 on: August 08, 2017, 07:45:53 PM »
The Rus themselves were forced into Christianity or killed. Non-Rus were in some cases allowed to retain their faith, albeit with severe civil liabilities.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #252 on: August 08, 2017, 07:49:07 PM »
Luther was known to teach some odd ideas at the end of his life, when he became old, sick, and embittered. That is why you will find that much of the Book of Concord was not written by him, but by Melanchthon, who was a far better theologian than Luther.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #253 on: August 08, 2017, 08:09:18 PM »
And the question of whether MOR is a nice guy or not is not at issue. He may in fact be the greatest hail-fellow-well-met gentleman in the world. I do not know, as I have never met him. I merely state that in terms of intellect, he has neither distinguished himself as brilliant, nor as an idiot. As regards the death of your father, I do not know when it occurred, or, for that matter, that it had. I am fairly new here, and spend considerable time NOT here. My profound condolences are offered to you in this admittedly horrid loss, especially as it appears you were close to him. Losing the man who sired you is obviously not easy. You are in my prayers.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 08:09:58 PM by Diego »

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #254 on: August 08, 2017, 08:11:34 PM »
Message deleted by me as an accidental repeat.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 08:14:25 PM by Diego »

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #255 on: August 08, 2017, 08:15:04 PM »
Not in the sense that you do. After Grand Prince Vladimir became Orthodox in 988, he FORCED the Pagan Rus to be baptised or be put to the sword. Orthodox, Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, and pretty much every other denomination of Christianity have all at one time or other committed outright murder in Christ's name. Ergo, no single denomination can claim to be a spotless Bride of the Christ. Even making the claim implies gross ignorance bordering on rank stupidity.
What about in the sense that St. Paul did in the letter to the Ephesians?
God bless!

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #256 on: August 08, 2017, 08:20:10 PM »
Oh, to that, TRISAGION, I would not argue. But none of the Christian Churches today have been able to maintain that high standard. We have all fallen to one degree or other from the pure Faith.

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #257 on: August 08, 2017, 08:27:41 PM »
I'm still quite confused. So St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Bride of Christ without stain or wrinkle and spotless, but you contend that none of the churches have been able to keep to that and we have all fallen, which would mean that there is no Church. That would then contradict Christ's proclamation that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church as well as St. Paul's contention that the Church is the pillar of truth. How do you sola scriptura guys keep to this whole sola scriptura thing when your scriptura is contrary to your sola?
God bless!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #258 on: August 08, 2017, 08:46:48 PM »
And the question of whether MOR is a nice guy or not is not at issue. He may in fact be the greatest hail-fellow-well-met gentleman in the world. I do not know, as I have never met him. I merely state that in terms of intellect, he has neither distinguished himself as brilliant, nor as an idiot.

Don't worry about me, worry about producing Jesus' divorce certificate. 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #259 on: August 08, 2017, 10:35:53 PM »
I'm still quite confused. So St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Bride of Christ without stain or wrinkle and spotless, but you contend that none of the churches have been able to keep to that and we have all fallen, which would mean that there is no Church. That would then contradict Christ's proclamation that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church as well as St. Paul's contention that the Church is the pillar of truth. How do you sola scriptura guys keep to this whole sola scriptura thing when your scriptura is contrary to your sola?

Simple: the True Church is the Invisible Church. Any one of us (and this includes Lutherans, the Orthodox, Romanists [much as I am not overly fond of them], Anglicans, even the Church of the East, and others) who keeps the Faith to the best of his ability is a member of the True Church. But to say that ONE Earthly organisation is True Church is simply retarded, since they have ALL proven otherwise.

There are minimal requirements. One must believe in the Objective Real Presence of Christ in the Sacrament of the Table (Altar; both terms are accurate) of the Lord. One must derive one's authority from something at least recognisable as Episcopal or Pastoral authority. The Sacraments must all be celebrated, no matter what they are called or which particular Liturgical Rites are used. Of course, some form of Liturgy has to be used. Obviously, some are preferable to others. This is why a multiplicity of them ARE used, even within one Church (the LCMS has five Liturgical settings for Holy Communion, by way of example). The Eastern Churches have 23, or if you count the Assyrians, 24. 22 of these can be found in Eastern Orthodoxy, and all 23 in Eastern Rite Catholicism (to my knowledge, there are no Maronite Orthodox folk; they are all Catholic). As for the OO, I THINK their Rites are all to be found inside, and outside, Oriental Orthodoxy, in both Catholic and EO Churches. Do NOT quote me on that, however.

It really IS that simple. On the matter of Bishops, I myself find them preferable. But they are HARDLY a guarantee of Orthodoxy! Look at the various Churches that now ordain women and homosexuals to that august post! Even within a Church that is predominantly orthodox (lower-case "o" letter intended), there are men in that office that are heretical.

The only reason LCMS did NOT have Bishops is because the Bishop they DID have was accused, probably unfairly, of inappropriate behaviour with a 14yo girl. He and those who followed him (a rather large number), left the area, went to Illinois, and founded a parish that was then and has remained to this day part of the LCMS. It was more of an asinine power struggle than anything else. He just happened to be on the losing side of it.

That left 14 Pastors asking whether they should go to Germany for another Bishop, or what? Given the political circumstances in Germany, that was deemed inadvisable. Studying Luther, it was determined that in fact, the difference between the Episkopoi and the Presbyteroi was one of degree rather than kind. Luther himself had studied the matter in detail in the Scriptures. This view has some support in the Ancient Church, although it is certain that eventually, the three-fold order of Episkopoi, Presbyteroi, and Diakonoi won the day, and admittedly, probably for the best.

Luther himself never objected to Bishops per se. He knew the C of E was going to keep them and when asked about it, simply said, "ok, fine." Of course, all of the Scandinavian Churches retained them, as did the Baltic Churches. It is only to say that he did not regard it as NECESSARY.

Given that the newly forming LCMS was unable to GET another Bishop, it was logically concluded that they would have to do without. Hence Pastors ordained other Pastors, and the concept of "Every Pastor a Bishop" was born. It should be noted that Orthodox Presbyters confirm today, as do Hispanic Roman Catholic Presbyters. In both cases, it is done at birth. In the rest of Catholicism, and in Anglicanism, the Bishops confirm teens. In Lutheran Churches, the Presbyter confirms, even when those Churches have Bishops, such as Sweden, for example. In all cases, it is done to teens.

Why is that latter point important? Because, if the Presbyters can confirm, even though though there are Bishops, it is quite evident that the offices are not exclusive of each other, as they would surely be if the  difference were one of kind, rather than degree.

Well, I should LOVE to ponder these matters further, but I really AM rather busy. So I shall bid you all a fond adieu for the present. Pray for me, a wretched sinner.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #260 on: August 08, 2017, 10:48:52 PM »
Luther was known to teach some odd ideas at the end of his life, when he became old, sick, and embittered. That is why you will find that much of the Book of Concord was not written by him, but by Melanchthon, who was a far better theologian than Luther.

Melancthon was far worse than Luther, blasphemously denying the physical presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.  His views are more offensive than the symbolic interpretation of Zwingli or the real but spiritual presence taught by Calvin.

Really, Melancthon is anathema to me; Luther I can tolerate to a certain degree, although he was no saint, the Roman Church of that era was corrupt, and Luther, in attempting to reform it, made several errors, yet did not display the ruthless lust for power of Calvin, nor was he in error to the extent of Calvin, Melancthon, Zwingli or even Archbishop Cranmer.

Cranmer I would admire as a liturgist, had he not burned Catholics at the stake; with poetic justice he himself was barbecued under Queen Mary.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #261 on: August 08, 2017, 10:49:30 PM »
The Rus themselves were forced into Christianity or killed. Non-Rus were in some cases allowed to retain their faith, albeit with severe civil liabilities.

Source?
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

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This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #262 on: August 08, 2017, 11:14:18 PM »
I do not recall Melanchthon denying the Objective Real Presence. In fact, in writing the Augsburg Confession and the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, he very clearly defended the Mass. Any decent history book of Russia will enlighten you to Prince Vladimir's unenlightened methods.

Cranmer of course started with orthodox perspectives on the Eucharist, moved on to Retramnian views and ultimately wound up with a quasi-Zwinglian view. He was an admirable liturgist, as his skill with the English language was little short of amazing.

Johannes Bugenhagen was quite good with liturgy as well, having designed the Danish/Norwegian Liturgy. Olavus Petri was quite good, having designed the Swedish Liturgy that was later translated to Finnish by Mikael Agricola. BOTH Bugenhagen and Petri, however, made the same error of Luther in using the excised Eucharistic Prayer. Thomas Cranmer of course avoided this, by essentially writing a new one.

« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 11:14:55 PM by Diego »

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #263 on: August 08, 2017, 11:19:53 PM »
Prince Vladimir ordered the people of Kiev to come to the river for Baptism "lest they risk becoming the Prince's enemies". Most people knew what that meant. A quick review of Wikipedia indicates that, but it is confirmed by multiple histories of Russia I have had to read over the years.

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #264 on: August 08, 2017, 11:24:23 PM »
Actually, we do not, and never have, taught Consubstantiation. That is only ONE of the foolish things you have said. Since Baptism, Confirmation, Communion, Marriage, the Ordering of clergy, Auricular Confession, and Final Rites are all performed, that means that seven Sacramental Rites are performed. The fact that a Bishop and a Pastor differ only in degree, rather than kind, is obvious from the NT unjunction that Bishops must have only one wife. The fact that your Bishops are celibate is a departure from Apostolic practice.

To say that the murder and rapine engaged in was the sin of Particular Churches, and not THE Church, when ALL of them did it, is pure stupidity run amok.

I will not deny that Luther was too monergistic, especially in shredding the Canon. But, in the other direction, BOTH Orthodoxy and Catholicism skirt the edges of Pelagianism. So...

1. The confessional statements of your own church deny that anything other than Baptism or the Eucharist are sacraments,   Lutheranism teaches that the body and blood are "in, with and under" the species of bread and wine, a view commonly called consubstantiation or impanation (except by Lutherans), which is heretical.  The apostolic faith is that the bread and wine become the actual body and blood of our Lord; this fact is attested to by the liturgical texts of the early Church.

2. Some Orthodox bishops are married or widowers, having taken a vow of chastity; choir bishops or chorepiscopi are not required to be celibate.  What is more, while in the early church a very few bishops were married (I can't think of any off the top of my head; to find an actual married bishop would require intensive searching), the bishops were the successors of the apostles, who were celibate.  However, there is nothing to prevent the Orthodox Church from ordaining a married bishop should the need arise.  Our preference is to consecrate monks.   What is more, we see a clear distinction between presbyters and bishops reflected in the Patristic corpus as early as the first century.

Now, St. Ignatius defined the local church as a Eucharistic communion centered around the bishop.  The generally accepted scholarly theory is that, as the number of churches multiplied, bishops ordained presbyters to vicariously serve in different parishes in their eparchies.  The essential unit of the Church however remained the Bishop.   One can hypothetically have a local church with one bishop and seven deacons, and no presbyters, but such a model would irresponsible on the part of the episcopate.  However, presbyters are not bishops; they are not equivalent to bishops, and one cannot have a local church without bishops.

To stress this point further: the ability to confer the sacrament of ordination, the specific charisma, passed on through apostolic succession, is given to bishops when they are ordained by at least three other bishops (in emergencies, a single bishop may ordain another; the bishops ordained by St. Jacob in the Syriac Orthodox Church come to mind, but these ordinations are akin to emergency baptisms performed by laity; efficacious but undesirable).  The proper ordination of bishops requires three bishops of the Catholic Church, that is to say, Orthodox, with valid apostolic auccession.

What is more, only a bishop can ordain priests and deacons.

Therefore, the LCMS lacks any form of validity in its holy orders; there are no priests and no deacons.   The Church of Sweden evrn lacks valid holy orders, and is devoid of functional priests and bishops, because the bishops of the Church of Sweden are anathema under Galatians 1:8 and outside the Catholic Church.

3. To say that the Body of Christ is imperfect is ecclesiological blasphemy.  Human beings are imperfect, so the local churches that comprise the Church Militant are imperfect.   However, the Catholic Church consists also of our Lord, who takes our fallen, imperfect nature unto himself, and glorifies, perfects, transfigures and deifies it, as he saves the Church.   Thus the Catholic Church as a whole is perfect, because we are saved through theosis, or deification, where Christ through the grace of the Holy Spirit, His perfect atonement for our sins on the Cross, His taking upon himself every aspect of human existence from birth to death, and His resurrection and ascension, transforms those who choose to receive His grace and deifies them, making them perfect even as the Father is perfect.

Individuals are not saved, but rather, the Church is; we die alone, but are saved together through communion, becoming united with the choir of saints of the Church Triumphant and our Lord Jesus Christ.  Thus, if the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church were imperfect, no one would be capable of being saved, because our salvation rests on our being perfected, perfected even as the Father is perfect, as our Lord taught us.

4. Luther's monergism is only vaguely related to his liturgical errors. 

5.  As I explained previously, in no sense is the Orthodox Church Pelagian.  We hold it impossible for a man to be saved according to his own merit.  Even St. Mary required our Lord for her salvation.  The Holy Spirit freely bestows grace upon the entire world, and those who have knowledge of the Christian faith can choose to accept this grace and enter into the Church.  However, their ability to join the Church would not exist without the grace of the Holy Spirit.  We believe in free will; so did St. Augustine, and the charge of semi-Pelagianism is essentially a Calvinist canard intended to defend their indefensible monergism.

Monergism was of course condemned as heresy at the Sixth Ecumenical Council.
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #265 on: August 08, 2017, 11:25:57 PM »
t is confirmed by multiple histories of Russia I have had to read over the years.

Someone has forced you to read multiple volumes on the history of Russia? No wonder you have such a sour taste for Orthodoxy! Better for you to have been forced to read volumes about the physics of drying paint.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 11:26:29 PM by Asteriktos »
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Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #266 on: August 08, 2017, 11:26:58 PM »
It should be noted that the Augsburg Confession, and the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, both affirm the Seven Ecumenical Councils. It would be hard for Melanchthon to do that and still deny the Objective Real Presence. Luther himself believed in the Objective Real Presence, but in his later years, an old, sick, embittered man, he wrote the Smalcald Articles. Though these had a few good things, for the most part, it would have been better had they never seen the light of day. The Church of Sweden wisely accepted them only as an historic document of the Church.

And yes, getting multiple degrees in History requires knowing the history of one of the most powerful nations in the world.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #267 on: August 08, 2017, 11:28:40 PM »
I do not recall Melanchthon denying the Objective Real Presence. In fact, in writing the Augsburg Confession and the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, he very clearly defended the Mass. Any decent history book of Russia will enlighten you to Prince Vladimir's unenlightened methods.

Cranmer of course started with orthodox perspectives on the Eucharist, moved on to Retramnian views and ultimately wound up with a quasi-Zwinglian view. He was an admirable liturgist, as his skill with the English language was little short of amazing.

Johannes Bugenhagen was quite good with liturgy as well, having designed the Danish/Norwegian Liturgy. Olavus Petri was quite good, having designed the Swedish Liturgy that was later translated to Finnish by Mikael Agricola. BOTH Bugenhagen and Petri, however, made the same error of Luther in using the excised Eucharistic Prayer. Thomas Cranmer of course avoided this, by essentially writing a new one.

Read The Eucharistic Liturgies (Bradshaw and Johnson) or the Oxford Handbook of Christian Worship for an explanation of Melancthon's views on the Eucharist.  Suffice it to say; you are in error, and the works I have cited, which are very good books in their own right, will clarify much for you.  Indeed, thanks to the latter work, I am well aware of the history of Lutheran worship in both Germany and Scandinavia.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #268 on: August 08, 2017, 11:31:54 PM »
The fact that you believe that man may begin to turn to God of his own good will is what pushes you to the verge of Pelagianism. Christ must act upon us first. From that point onward, I would certainly accept that one's own free will can begin to act.

As for Melanchthon and his views, given his authorship of the Augsburg Confession and the Apology of it, whatever other oddball thoughts he may have had can be ignored. They had no practical results.

You may choose to wrongly call our views on the Sacrament Consubstantiation. We do not use the term, nor is it accurate. Rather, Sacramental Union is used.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #269 on: August 08, 2017, 11:34:25 PM »
The Apostle Peter was married, as Scripture attests.