Author Topic: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here  (Read 3716 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,080
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #180 on: July 22, 2017, 11:42:37 PM »
Ah I see what you meant, Tris, and it's a really good point.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #181 on: July 22, 2017, 11:42:47 PM »
I would love that we wouldn't be split into all these different groups, that people couldn't go jurisdiction shopping, that efforts of evangelization and missions would be better organized, that we would be in accordance with the canons of the Church instead of a hodgepodge.

You can take the person out of Evangelicalism, but it takes a bit to get the Evangelicalism out of the person. I don't think unifying jurisdictions, when it happens, will make this process of purging the inner man any faster, but maybe you're right and it will.
What does Evangelicalism have to do with anything I just said?  ???

EDIT: Ah, I think you thought I was referencing how evangelicals bounce around between churches. I think that also is an issue that gets ported over, but not near as serious as the irregularities that occur with clergy.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 11:47:30 PM by TheTrisagion »
God bless!

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,353
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #182 on: July 22, 2017, 11:48:53 PM »
I'm Antiochian, and I love it, but I would prefer that that North America be united and autocephalous

Would what you love about it change if there was a united jurisdiction?
I would love that we wouldn't be split into all these different groups, that people couldn't go jurisdiction shopping, that efforts of evangelization and missions would be better organized, that we would be in accordance with the canons of the Church instead of a hodgepodge.

I think there will eventually be some kind of canonical order (however we decide to define that in the 21st century), but it'll be along gerrymandered dioceses and the former jurisdiction hopping will just be re-branded as looking for the right parish fit.
Even if that is true, at least it will be a good step forward. It is not bad to have diversity within unity.

It wouldn't bother me.

My Orthodox life has was gestated in the OCA, birthed in a parish with portions of the liturgy in Arabic, learned to crawl in the OCA and currently toddles along in Greek (depending on the week and how many Greek people show up).
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline Father H

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,675
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Nea Roma
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #183 on: July 22, 2017, 11:54:07 PM »
very interesting. I vaguely remember reading in a Delumeau book if I'm not mistaken about German scholars proving from the Bible that german was spoken in paradise but the serpent addressed Eve in French.

Well there's your problem.
I don't think I get it.  He's a Catholic iirc.

Do you have any idea how many Catholics there are? Better to look at his work than at his baptism.
ha! But he put forward a good theory as to how Xtianity was transmitted in Europe up to maybe early 20th century I don't remember the exact terminus point. He makes a good argument that it was almost always from grandparents to grandchildren and how the emergence of the nuclear family messed up the mechanism. So this led to the secularization of today .

Augustin, you will eventually be a fully theist Christian.  God is working on you, even if you don't believe in Him, much like gravity is working on you even if you don't believe its author.  Keep your pews (we keep ours). 

Offline Alpha60

  • The Confederate Flag Is Diabolical and Blasphemous
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,187
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #184 on: July 23, 2017, 02:32:06 AM »
I'm Antiochian, and I love it, but I would prefer that that North America be united and autocephalous

Would what you love about it change if there was a united jurisdiction?
I would love that we wouldn't be split into all these different groups, that people couldn't go jurisdiction shopping, that efforts of evangelization and missions would be better organized, that we would be in accordance with the canons of the Church instead of a hodgepodge.

What is "jurisdiction shopping" and why is it a bad thing?  Just curious.
Hopping in between jurisdictions. I don't see it as big of a deal for laypersons, but then you have situations like Nathan Monk where he approached the Antiochian Archdiocese to be accepted as a priest, they refused him, and then he went to ROCOR who accepted him and then it blew up in their face.  Similarly, with Archbishop Lazar Puhalo, he was a deacon in ROCOR, wandered around vagante for awhile and then got brought in under OCA as an archbishop. If it was all one jurisdiction, such things wouldn't happen.

That could perhaps be solved under the current system with improved communications between bishops, and perhaps a standardized vetting process for prospective ordinands.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Diego

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 932
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #185 on: July 23, 2017, 03:07:49 AM »
Animated? Why, yes. But I am 5'10" and weigh 243.8 lbs precisely, and can rather contentedly say that only a small amount of that is excess that I do not need. Thanks be to God that I took after my father in being a big, large-built man.

However, it strikes me that this conversation has become VERY animated! I can observe, you all do argue amongst yourselves quite ferociously!

Mind you, that is NOT a criticism! We Lutherans argue amongst ourselves in a FAR more ferocious fashion thsn you all. And various Lutheran Churches are in or not in communion with each other, based on the group of Lutherans in question. ELCA is in specific communion with the Episcopal Church, and the ELCC and the Old Catholics are in communion in Canada. At least in the US, that means that Episcopal Priests and ELCA Pastors can preach and celebrate the Sacraments in each others' Churches. The ECUSA has similar arrangements with the Moravians, and ELCA has similar arrangements with the Presbyterian Church USA. As to what that means for the PCUSA and ECUSA, or the ELCA and the Moravians,  I do not know.

ELCA and ECUSA permit any Trinitarian Christian who receives Communion in his own Church to receive in theirs. ELCA parishes have even been known to permit non-Christians to receive, though this is rare.

Officially, LCMS is in communion and full altar fellowship with EXACTLY 35 other Lutheran Churches all over the world. If St. Louis had ITS way, ONLY members of those Churches would commune with us. But individual Pastors, on the principle of "Every Pastor a Bishop", can, and often do, change these rules. My own Pastor permits anyone who believes in the Objectively Real Presence to commune.

It DOES sound, however, that many of your problems are also ours, and vice-versa. The jurisdictional matter was a HUGE mess for us up until the American Lutheran Church, the Lutheran Church of America, and one other joined in 1988 to become ELCA. One of the Churches was Danish, the other Swedish, and the other a schism from LCMS. The Finns and the Norwegians also figured in there. I can look up exactly how later. MOST of the Norwegians were clustered in and around Mankato, MN, and remain in their own Synod, Evangelical Lutheran Synod. They use the Norwegian Liturgy in Modern English. LCMS is of German provenance. WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod) is ALSO German, but they are basically Calvinists with a Liturgy. They celebrate Divine Service in a Geneva gown.

Of course, today the HUGE division between Lutherans is the Quia v. Quatenus understanding of the Book of Concord.LCMS is a Quia Church that adheres to the Book of Concord completely BECAUSE (quia) it agrees with Scripture. ELCA is a Quatenus Church that uses the Book of Concord only INSOFAR AS (quatenus) that book agrees with their interpretation of Scripture.

The issue here is clear. If the Bible is true, and the Concordia accurately teaches Scriptural truth, then the two keep a balance. Liberal understandings of Scripture cannot happen, because the Concordia already understands Scripture, and liberal ideas of the Concordia cannot happen, because what it says is supported by Scripture.

But if Concordia is only used insofar as it agrees with Scripture, that enables someone to go off interpreting Scripture however he likes, and when Concordia proves him wrong, he just says, "well, Concordia is wrong in this case because it disagrees with Scripture (by which he means his own perverse understanding of it.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 03:13:15 AM by Diego »

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,080
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #186 on: July 23, 2017, 03:56:03 AM »
Book of Concord, Book of Mormon. Tomato, tomahto.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Diego

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 932
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #187 on: July 23, 2017, 04:34:40 AM »
Well, you just proved that a person can speak a grammatically correct sentence, yet say absolutely nothing of value.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,173
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #188 on: July 23, 2017, 02:58:39 PM »
Well, you just proved that a person can speak a grammatically correct sentence, yet say absolutely nothing of value.
and you are welcoming him to your club...
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alpha60

  • The Confederate Flag Is Diabolical and Blasphemous
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,187
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #189 on: July 23, 2017, 09:09:55 PM »
Book of Concord, Book of Mormon. Tomato, tomahto.

Brilliant.

Now, I used to own a wonderful history of the eponymous supersonic airliner which I shall always in my heart remember as The Book of Concorde.   Alas.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

  • The Confederate Flag Is Diabolical and Blasphemous
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,187
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #190 on: July 23, 2017, 09:12:05 PM »
Well, you just proved that a person can speak a grammatically correct sentence, yet say absolutely nothing of value.

Are you sure about that, old stick?  It looked like two fragments paired for rhetorical effect to me; elegant prose but not quite playing syntactic cricket with an altogether straight bat.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 09:12:15 PM by Alpha60 »
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

  • The Confederate Flag Is Diabolical and Blasphemous
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,187
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #191 on: July 23, 2017, 09:34:33 PM »
Animated? Why, yes. But I am 5'10" and weigh 243.8 lbs precisely, and can rather contentedly say that only a small amount of that is excess that I do not need. Thanks be to God that I took after my father in being a big, large-built man.


Thanks be to God that I apparently tower over you at 6'2".

Quote

However, it strikes me that this conversation has become VERY animated! I can observe, you all do argue amongst yourselves quite ferociously!


It is an Orthodox forum.   The fact that you find strongly held, divergent interpretations of the Orthodox faith here should not come as a surprise.  I would expect to find ferocious debate even on Rastafarian forums, for their supply of weed surely has its limits, and when it is exhausted, that is no doubt when the Rastas form religious disputations and schisms, for at all other times their minds are too suppressed.

Quote

Mind you, that is NOT a criticism! We Lutherans argue amongst ourselves in a FAR more ferocious fashion thsn you all. And various Lutheran Churches are in or not in communion with each other, based on the group of Lutherans in question. ELCA is in specific communion with the Episcopal Church, and the ELCC and the Old Catholics are in communion in Canada. At least in the US, that means that Episcopal Priests and ELCA Pastors can preach and celebrate the Sacraments in each others' Churches. The ECUSA has similar arrangements with the Moravians, and ELCA has similar arrangements with the Presbyterian Church USA. As to what that means for the PCUSA and ECUSA, or the ELCA and the Moravians,  I do not know.


This is of very little interest and still less relevance.  This is OrthodoxChristianity.net, not SchismaticWesternProtestantAlphabetSoup.net

Quote

ELCA and ECUSA permit any Trinitarian Christian who receives Communion in his own Church to receive in theirs. ELCA parishes have even been known to permit non-Christians to receive, though this is rare.


On the contrary, every Sunday non-Christians would appear to comprise the entire congregation of the ELCA parish known as "herchurch," formerly Ebenezer Lutheran.

Quote

Officially, LCMS is in communion and full altar fellowship with EXACTLY 35 other Lutheran Churches all over the world. If St. Louis had ITS way, ONLY members of those Churches would commune with us. But individual Pastors, on the principle of "Every Pastor a Bishop", can, and often do, change these rules. My own Pastor permits anyone who believes in the Objectively Real Presence to commune.

It DOES sound, however, that many of your problems are also ours, and vice-versa. The jurisdictional matter was a HUGE mess for us up until the American Lutheran Church, the Lutheran Church of America, and one other joined in 1988 to become ELCA. One of the Churches was Danish, the other Swedish, and the other a schism from LCMS. The Finns and the Norwegians also figured in there. I can look up exactly how later. MOST of the Norwegians were clustered in and around Mankato, MN, and remain in their own Synod, Evangelical Lutheran Synod. They use the Norwegian Liturgy in Modern English. LCMS is of German provenance. WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod) is ALSO German, but they are basically Calvinists with a Liturgy. They celebrate Divine Service in a Geneva gown.

Of course, today the HUGE division between Lutherans is the Quia v. Quatenus understanding of the Book of Concord.LCMS is a Quia Church that adheres to the Book of Concord completely BECAUSE (quia) it agrees with Scripture. ELCA is a Quatenus Church that uses the Book of Concord only INSOFAR AS (quatenus) that book agrees with their interpretation of Scripture.

The issue here is clear. If the Bible is true, and the Concordia accurately teaches Scriptural truth, then the two keep a balance. Liberal understandings of Scripture cannot happen, because the Concordia already understands Scripture, and liberal ideas of the Concordia cannot happen, because what it says is supported by Scripture.

But if Concordia is only used insofar as it agrees with Scripture, that enables someone to go off interpreting Scripture however he likes, and when Concordia proves him wrong, he just says, "well, Concordia is wrong in this case because it disagrees with Scripture (by which he means his own perverse understanding of it.

This is of course an irrelevance, because the Book of Concord is false, and contrary to the plain sense of scripture.  The impious heresiarch Luther, aware of this fact, sought unsuccessfully to edit Scripture by mistranslating Romans into German (inserting the word "alone" where it does not belong to give credence to the heresy of sola fide), and by deleting or deprecating the so-called Antilegomemna.  The Epistle of St. James in particular basically contradicts Luther's heresy entirely, hence his desire to discredit it.

The only possibly reasonable position for a Lutheran in such a case would be the Quatenus position, and thus, you have exposed the LCMS and its adherents as being guilty of Orwellian Doublethink by virtue of their attempt to simultaneously believe in the entire Book of Concord while maintaining the pretense of Sola Scriptura.

This is actually a disappointment for me; I had previously respected the LCMS more than most Protestant denominations, but if what you say is true, their treatment of the Book of Concord is as irrational and single-minded as the SDA's insistence on the inspired status and complete correctness of the writings of Ellen G White (while also pretentiously claiming to be "Sola Scriptura").

Really, it would seem what both churches did was to supplant the erroneous, yet mostly correct Magisterium of the RCC, which is a corrupt form of Orthodox Holy Tradition, with their own tractates; then, while claiming to believe only in Scripture, they in fact use these tractates as a substitute for the Magisterium as a means of defendinf the preferred beliefs of their denomination, the specific configuration of which tends to be arbitrary.  Calvinists likewise will use the Institutes, the Book of Order, the Westminister Confession of Faith and other documents in a similiar manner, and Anglicans have their 35 Articles (but Anglo Catholics simply ignore these allowing them to attain to something vaguely akin to Orthodoxy thanks to the content of the BCP services and the extremely liturgical natire of Anglicanism).

In the event, it hardly matters; the state of the Western Church since 1054 if not earlier has been lamentable, and threatens the very survival of the apostolic Christian faith.  2/3rds of the world's Christians are subject to grave, soul-threatening errors.   We can appeal only to the mercy of Christ and the intercession of the Theotokos for the salvation of the West on the basis that moat Western Christians are in this mess because of geopolitical processes beyond their control, and most are not heresiarchs, evil pastors perpetuating error, but merely lost sheep who properly belong to the Church.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Diego

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 932
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #192 on: August 08, 2017, 12:19:57 AM »
Actually, Anglicans have Thirty-NINE Articles.

Offline Diego

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 932
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #193 on: August 08, 2017, 12:23:12 AM »
I would further add that most of the heresies that wracked the Church in early centuries were Eastern in location. Of course, today's Orthodoxy and today's Roman Catholicism both come very close to Pelagianism, or at least Semi-Pelagianism.

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,080
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #194 on: August 08, 2017, 12:46:18 AM »
"Racked." You'd think a master linguist in dialects of English would know that.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Diego

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 932
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #195 on: August 08, 2017, 01:01:40 AM »
"Wracked", as in, "She was wracked with grief." This is a perfectly acceptable spelling alternative to "racked", and in fact, is more commonly used. Google it. The fact that you lack intelligence is not my fault.

Offline Diego

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 932
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #196 on: August 08, 2017, 01:04:45 AM »
In fact, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle used the spelling I have chosen. I understand that your brain is WRACKED with ignorance, but please do not fault me for it.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 01:05:31 AM by Diego »

Offline Asteriktos

  • Lame!
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 35,440
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #197 on: August 08, 2017, 01:25:26 AM »
I would further add that most of the heresies that wracked the Church in early centuries were Eastern in location.

For good reason: the east was where the majority of people were (and esp. literate people) in the "Roman world" and thereabouts. Even Rome was little more than a backwater for generations after it had been sacked several times in the 5th/6th centuries. Once the west got up on its city-building and language-educating feet it joined the heresy party more often.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 01:26:04 AM by Asteriktos »
Facts unloading, please to wait

Offline Diego

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 932
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #198 on: August 08, 2017, 01:32:05 AM »
There were as many people literate in Latin in the West as there were literate folk in Greek in the East. Which is to say, few. The average citizen could NOT read or write.

Offline Asteriktos

  • Lame!
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 35,440
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #199 on: August 08, 2017, 01:35:08 AM »
There were as many people literate in Latin in the West as there were literate folk in Greek in the East. Which is to say, few. The average citizen could NOT read or write.

East = 45 million people x 5% literate = 2,250,000 people sharing their opinions, with them more likely to be crammed together in cities and arguing with each other
West = 10 million people x 1% literate = 100,000 people sharing their opinions, with them more likely to be largely isolated from each other
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 01:38:24 AM by Asteriktos »
Facts unloading, please to wait

Offline Diego

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 932
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #200 on: August 08, 2017, 01:38:47 AM »
If you can cite your sources as to the 5% and the 1%, I shall believe you. And Wikipedia is NOT a valid source.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 01:39:15 AM by Diego »

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,080
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #201 on: August 08, 2017, 01:41:37 AM »
"Wracked", as in, "She was wracked with grief." This is a perfectly acceptable spelling alternative to "racked", and in fact, is more commonly used. Google it. The fact that you lack intelligence is not my fault.

"Wrack" is an obsolete orthography of "wreck" and is only really acceptable in the archaism "wrack and ruin." "To rack" means "to try, and torment" and is what you wanted. But I'm glad you're furiously googling it; it's possible you'll learn something.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,080
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #202 on: August 08, 2017, 01:43:40 AM »
There were as many people literate in Latin in the West as there were literate folk in Greek in the East. Which is to say, few. The average citizen could NOT read or write.

This is almost certainly false.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Diego

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 932
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #203 on: August 08, 2017, 01:45:44 AM »
"Wracked", as in, "She was wracked with grief." This is a perfectly acceptable spelling alternative to "racked", and in fact, is more commonly used. Google it. The fact that you lack intelligence is not my fault.

"Wrack" is an obsolete orthography of "wreck" and is only really acceptable in the archaism "wrack and ruin." "To rack" means "to try, and torment" and is what you wanted. But I'm glad you're furiously googling it; it's possible you'll learn something.

You are quite incorrect. The fact that you are stupid is your own fault. I did not Google it at all. There was was no need. But you should. As dramatic as your foolishness is, and the fact that you are only making it more obvious...

There were as many people literate in Latin in the West as there were literate folk in Greek in the East. Which is to say, few. The average citizen could NOT read or write.

This is almost certainly false.

Again, ignorant soul, cite source or shut yap.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 01:46:25 AM by Diego »

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,080
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #204 on: August 08, 2017, 01:46:50 AM »
I've offered as many sources as you.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Diego

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 932
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #205 on: August 08, 2017, 01:49:54 AM »
You are challenging me, and asking me to alter my opinion. Given that you are known to be lacking in intelligence, I am right to demand a source. And any student of 7th Grade History knows that few people anywhere in the Christian world could read and write during the time period in question. Since you are challenging a known fact, you must cite sources.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 01:50:33 AM by Diego »

Offline Alpha60

  • The Confederate Flag Is Diabolical and Blasphemous
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,187
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #206 on: August 08, 2017, 01:57:51 AM »
Actually, Anglicans have Thirty-NINE Articles.

Yes, you are of course in this rare instance correct; it was audiographic transposition in my memory (hence the use of "niner" in air traffic communications).

Although, the number of articles has varied over time, and in many Anglican churches they are no longer binding; John Wesley included only 25 of them in the Methodist prayer book.

From an Orthodox perspective, perhaps the most objectionable would be the phrase "Just as the churches of Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria have fallen into error, so too has Rome," which like many critiques of us presented here, is offered without substantiation.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Diego

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 932
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #207 on: August 08, 2017, 02:03:48 AM »
My own understanding is that EVERY Church has erred, including my own, and the four mentioned by the C of E, and of course, the C of E itself. The borderline Pelagianism in both the Orthodox and Roman Churches, and the extreme Monergism of the Lutherans, are evidence of this.

Offline Alpha60

  • The Confederate Flag Is Diabolical and Blasphemous
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,187
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #208 on: August 08, 2017, 02:04:37 AM »
You are challenging me, and asking me to alter my opinion. Given that you are known to be lacking in intelligence, I am right to demand a source. And any student of 7th Grade History knows that few people anywhere in the Christian world could read and write during the time period in question. Since you are challenging a known fact, you must cite sources.

I know that literacy was very low during the Dark Ages.   But in the 16th century, with the printing press, and ready education available from the clergy in the numerous chantries set up to serve masses for the dead, which developed a secondary function as schools owing to their lack of faculties for public mass services (this did not prevent the loathesome Henry VIII and most other greedy European rulers from abolishing them in order to steal their vast endowments), there were obviously enough people literate in the vernacular language for Martin Luther to be able to justify spending a considerable amount of time on a vernacular Bible, which several groups founded in the following decades stressed the importance of personally reading.   For that matter, we have the high importance given by the Anglican reforms to an English prayer book and the proliferation of English language bibles, even bibles for the use of small, isolated communities of English religious refugees (the Geneva Bible and the Douay-Rheims).
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Diego

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 932
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #209 on: August 08, 2017, 02:05:54 AM »
You are challenging me, and asking me to alter my opinion. Given that you are known to be lacking in intelligence, I am right to demand a source. And any student of 7th Grade History knows that few people anywhere in the Christian world could read and write during the time period in question. Since you are challenging a known fact, you must cite sources.

I know that literacy was very low during the Dark Ages.   But in the 16th century, with the printing press, and ready education available from the clergy in the numerous chantries set up to serve masses for the dead, which developed a secondary function as schools owing to their lack of faculties for public mass services (this did not prevent the loathesome Henry VIII and most other greedy European rulers from abolishing them in order to steal their vast endowments), there were obviously enough people literate in the vernacular language for Martin Luther to be able to justify spending a considerable amount of time on a vernacular Bible, which several groups founded in the following decades stressed the importance of personally reading.   For that matter, we have the high importance given by the Anglican reforms to an English prayer book and the proliferation of English language bibles, even bibles for the use of small, isolated communities of English religious refugees (the Geneva Bible and the Douay-Rheims).

I actually agree with this.

Offline Alpha60

  • The Confederate Flag Is Diabolical and Blasphemous
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,187
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #210 on: August 08, 2017, 02:16:58 AM »
My own understanding is that EVERY Church has erred, including my own, and the four mentioned by the C of E, and of course, the C of E itself. The borderline Pelagianism in both the Orthodox and Roman Churches, and the extreme Monergism of the Lutherans, are evidence of this.

The Holy Orthodox Church has, as a whole, not erred; the entire church has never fallen into an error; no error has ever been embraced by all of the Patriarchates (indeed, the Patriarch of Romania wears a white zostikon, exorason and kamilavka to celebrate his church having never embraced any heresy).

Of the Orthodox churches which fell into error, all subsequently pulled themselves out again, in some cases with the assistance of their neighbors, in comtrast to Rome, which fell into a well of error.  But Protestantism, rather than climbing out of this well, seems to think it is in some sort of golf mine, and thus tunnels ever deeper below ground, to the point where the visibly demonic is present in the ELCA and the ECUSA.

The LCMS is basically hanging by its fingers on a narrow ledge above the burning pit into which the ELCA has fallen, having for a time fallen with it (during the era when the LCMS ordained women and was the progenitor of the Lutheran Book of Worship); the WELS likewise, but these two churches are unable to pull themselves up as they are weighted down by an arrogant love of some of the erroneous doctrines which landed them in this precarious condition.

~

There is no borderline Pelagianism in the Orthodox church.  We have never taught Pelagianism.  Nor have we taught the erroneous views of St. Augustine; our understanding of original sin, which is the correct one (a fact which can be deduced by the lack of any need under our soteriological model for the Virgin Mary to be immaculately conceived), is based on the writings of St. John Cassian, the best of the Latin theologians, and the man who more decisively than Augustine, dealt a death-blow to Pelagianism, so that none in the church continued to accept it.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

  • The Confederate Flag Is Diabolical and Blasphemous
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,187
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #211 on: August 08, 2017, 02:18:42 AM »
You are challenging me, and asking me to alter my opinion. Given that you are known to be lacking in intelligence, I am right to demand a source. And any student of 7th Grade History knows that few people anywhere in the Christian world could read and write during the time period in question. Since you are challenging a known fact, you must cite sources.

I know that literacy was very low during the Dark Ages.   But in the 16th century, with the printing press, and ready education available from the clergy in the numerous chantries set up to serve masses for the dead, which developed a secondary function as schools owing to their lack of faculties for public mass services (this did not prevent the loathesome Henry VIII and most other greedy European rulers from abolishing them in order to steal their vast endowments), there were obviously enough people literate in the vernacular language for Martin Luther to be able to justify spending a considerable amount of time on a vernacular Bible, which several groups founded in the following decades stressed the importance of personally reading.   For that matter, we have the high importance given by the Anglican reforms to an English prayer book and the proliferation of English language bibles, even bibles for the use of small, isolated communities of English religious refugees (the Geneva Bible and the Douay-Rheims).

I actually agree with this.

Then you might apologize to Porter, because it is evident this is what he was referring to.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Diego

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 932
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #212 on: August 08, 2017, 02:25:01 AM »
The LCMS has never ordained females. Where are you getting this? As for the issue of Pelagianism, Orthodoxy and Catholicism are rife with it. The fact that you believe that man can of his own will turn toward God in any acceptable way and merit salvation makes that clear.

PORTER, as foolish as he is, was referring to the period of the Dark Ages. So...

Offline Diego

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 932
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #213 on: August 08, 2017, 02:28:10 AM »
In fact, the LCMS only once discussed female ordination, at a General Convention 19 years ago. 87% of voting delegates voted against it, and it has not been brought up since. We DO ordain an order of Deaconesses, but they do exactly what the order did in the New Testament, and they are not permitted to preach or teach.

Offline Alpha60

  • The Confederate Flag Is Diabolical and Blasphemous
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,187
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #214 on: August 08, 2017, 02:37:06 AM »
I would further add that most of the heresies that wracked the Church in early centuries were Eastern in location. Of course, today's Orthodoxy and today's Roman Catholicism both come very close to Pelagianism, or at least Semi-Pelagianism.

Both of these points are in error, but I have already addressed the latter.

The heresies of the early Church were uniformly distributed until St. Constantine moved the capital to Constantinople, as a reading of Against Heresies by St. Irenaeus will confirm; thereafter, several major heresiarchs attempted to use what eventually became the Ecumenical Patriarch and influence with the Imperial Court to disseminate their heresy, but in terms of the origin or residence of the majority or the adherents of these heresies, we find this to change dramatically over the ages.  Thus, we have St. Augustine growing up a Manichean; we find the only intact Arian place of worship with Arian iconography in Ravenna, and the most substantial outbreak of Adoptionism in the first millenium occurred around the year 700 or so in Spain.

What is more, nearly all of the heresies to "wrack the Church" in the present are of Western origin.  I can think of precisely three heresies to emerge in the East since 1600 which have no Western counterpart: the Skoptsky, or mutilators, which I believe are extinct, the Imiaslavie, and the Sophianists (who I have read were in some respects influenced by the Imiaslavie, although I can't verify it; the same work which mentioned that also repeated the discredited smear that St. John of Kronstadit was an Imiaslavie).

All other Eastern heresies of recent origin are simply carbon-copies of Western heresies.  The Doukhobors are Unitarians, the Molokans are Judaizers of the Sabbatarian variety.

On the other hand, the West has produced everything from Mormonism to Christian Science, to Unitarian Universalism, to a whole host of heresies within the mainline churches, like, for example, Womanist Theology (see the altar at the ECUSA Cathedral of St. John the Divine that depicts Jesus Christ as a Woman).

"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Diego

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 932
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #215 on: August 08, 2017, 02:44:26 AM »
I have seen "Christa" in the Cathedral of St. John the Divine. Aside from the fact that it is historically stupid (Christ was male, and the Romans did NOT crucify women in any event, as the punishment was deemed too brutal for a woman to endure), I must admit that it was the one time I would have favoured bringing back burning at the stake for heretics.

Offline Alpha60

  • The Confederate Flag Is Diabolical and Blasphemous
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,187
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #216 on: August 08, 2017, 02:46:07 AM »
The LCMS has never ordained females. Where are you getting this?


Sorry, I confused you with the SBC, another disagreeable denomination of congregational polity.

Quote

As for the issue of Pelagianism, Orthodoxy and Catholicism are rife with it. The fact that you believe that man can of his own will turn toward God in any acceptable way and merit salvation makes that clear.


We do not believe this; what you describe is Pelagian.  You should read The Orthodox Way, by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, or one of any number of basic introductions to Orthodox theology.

Aided by grace, man can respond to the calling of divine grace and be saved through cooperation, synergy, with God, not on His own but only with and through divine grace.  Absent this grace, which is freely given, and alas usually spurned, there is no possibility of salvation except through an extraordinary act of mercy on the part of God. 

Quote

PORTER, as foolish as he is, was referring to the period of the Dark Ages. So...

It is not becoming to call other members foolish in discussions in Religious Topics or the public forums. 
As someone challenging the Orthodox faith on this forum, it would behoove you to write with some restraint when debating our faith.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

  • The Confederate Flag Is Diabolical and Blasphemous
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,187
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #217 on: August 08, 2017, 02:49:12 AM »
I have seen "Christa" in the Cathedral of St. John the Divine. Aside from the fact that it is historically stupid (Christ was male, and the Romans did NOT crucify women in any event, as the punishment was deemed too brutal for a woman to endure), I must admit that it was the one time I would have favoured bringing back burning at the stake for heretics.

Explain to me then how it is this happened in a Western church and not an Eastern church, given how apparently corrupt and Pelagian we are?

The ECUSA at their last convention studied a proposal to rehabiliate Pelagius and research his contributions to Christian theology, for the edification of their laity.  I believe they have, or recently had, a committee at work to this end.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Diego

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 932
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #218 on: August 08, 2017, 02:52:36 AM »
I have seen "Christa" in the Cathedral of St. John the Divine. Aside from the fact that it is historically stupid (Christ was male, and the Romans did NOT crucify women in any event, as the punishment was deemed too brutal for a woman to endure), I must admit that it was the one time I would have favoured bringing back burning at the stake for heretics.

Explain to me then how it is this happened in a Western church and not an Eastern church, given how apparently corrupt and Pelagian we are?

The ECUSA at their last convention studied a proposal to rehabiliate Pelagius and research his contributions to Christian theology, for the edification of their laity.  I believe they have, or recently had, a committee at work to this end.

It is the Episcopal Church. They are a non-Christian organisation at this point. I cannot guess at their logic. They are, and for a long time have been, outright Pelagian in nature. Note that Orthodoxy and Catholicism skirt the edges of Pelagianism. ECUSA downright embraces it.

Offline Diego

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 932
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #219 on: August 08, 2017, 02:54:27 AM »
I also have never found extensive corruption in Orthodoxy. Are there ecclesial problems, sure. But most of the clergy and people mean well. I find corruption to be far more of a problem in Rome.

Offline Diego

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 932
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #220 on: August 08, 2017, 02:56:31 AM »
I must go now. I have actually enjoyed talking with you, though. You seem knowledgeable. I like that in a person, even when I disagree with him.

Offline Alpha60

  • The Confederate Flag Is Diabolical and Blasphemous
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,187
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #221 on: August 08, 2017, 05:23:15 AM »
I must go now. I have actually enjoyed talking with you, though. You seem knowledgeable. I like that in a person, even when I disagree with him.

Porter and Isa have forgotten more about Christianity, Orthodoxy and the related history than I might ever know, so you should talk to them instead and respect what they have to say.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Diego

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 932
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #222 on: August 08, 2017, 07:19:22 AM »
I must go now. I have actually enjoyed talking with you, though. You seem knowledgeable. I like that in a person, even when I disagree with him.

Porter and Isa have forgotten more about Christianity, Orthodoxy and the related history than I might ever know, so you should talk to them instead and respect what they have to say.

Respecting Porter, given how rude and classless he is, might prove difficult. Isa I do not know, and thus cannot predict his conduct.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 32,617
  • Pope Pius XIII, play for us!
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #223 on: August 08, 2017, 11:03:11 AM »
My own understanding is that EVERY Church has erred, including my own, and the four mentioned by the C of E, and of course, the C of E itself. The borderline Pelagianism in both the Orthodox and Roman Churches, and the extreme Monergism of the Lutherans, are evidence of this.

"My church sucks, so everyone else's church must suck.  Including Jesus' Church.  Boy, does that one suck."
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline Diego

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 932
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #224 on: August 08, 2017, 11:11:22 AM »
My own understanding is that EVERY Church has erred, including my own, and the four mentioned by the C of E, and of course, the C of E itself. The borderline Pelagianism in both the Orthodox and Roman Churches, and the extreme Monergism of the Lutherans, are evidence of this.

"My church sucks, so everyone else's church must suck.  Including Jesus' Church.  Boy, does that one suck."

That is not what I said. In fact, the Church exists wherever the Word of God is truly preached, and the Sacraments are duly and rightly administered. To claim that ONE denomination holds this title exclusively is the height of arrogance. Given the fact that the Orthodox are divided into THREE groups (the EO, the OO, and the Assyrian Church [of which there are TWO]), and this does not count the Old Believers and the whole Calendar mess, Orthodoxy has little more claim to be "the True Church" than we do.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 11:12:03 AM by Diego »