Author Topic: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here  (Read 4093 times)

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #135 on: July 19, 2017, 05:55:36 PM »
I also see that to make your argument you over and over you have to make literal villains out of the men of God in Turkey. Not just that they're liberal, or shady, or whatever but actually paint them as wicked enemies. If you can't sense a problem with this, as a Christian man, I'm surprised.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #136 on: July 19, 2017, 05:57:35 PM »
Then I'm sure when OCA returns with due humility to the newly-refreshed Church of Russia...

Why should they return?  "The newly-refreshed Church of Russia" continues to regard them as autocephalous, as do several other Churches. 

Quote
But above all, you do realize that autonomy does any church very little good if they can't maintain good standing with the churches of God?

That sword cuts both ways.

It seems unlikely the MP would accept an unsolicited attempt by the OCA to surrender MP-granted autocephaly, as it would undermine the MP's political claim to equality with the EP, which naturally entails having an equal right to issue a Tomos of Autocephaly.

I don't see the OCA in its present form, scandal-ridden and the veritable masters of liturgical shortcuts and innovation, as the solution to unity in American Eastern Orthodoxy, I'm not even sure canonical unity is as desirable as some claim, but it is closer to being viable under an OCA style model than under reunification under the EP, which is simply not going to happen.   It also really doesn't matter, because everyone is in communion with everyone else.  OCA bishops have I believe even concelebrated with EP bishops.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #137 on: July 19, 2017, 06:25:00 PM »
ROCOR makes your same assERtion (always interesting to see Greek and Russian chauvinists to agree), but they never explain why the KGB would force the PoM to grant autocephaly to North America after half a century of trying to get loyalty oaths from Americans through the Church. Nor why the negotiators went to such lengths to cut out the KGB minders out of the process as much as possible.

You know, when one's argument has to take on a form as convoluted and improbable as all this, then one may not be on great footing. I'd take another look at the problem with a different mindset, if I were you.
Thank God, for a myriad of reasons, I am not you-one of those reasons would be my wealth of facts and your dearth thereof, which this post amply demonstrates.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #138 on: July 19, 2017, 06:30:43 PM »
I also see that to make your argument you over and over you have to make literal villains out of the men of God in Turkey. Not just that they're liberal, or shady, or whatever but actually paint them as wicked enemies. If you can't sense a problem with this, as a Christian man, I'm surprised.
The Phanariots are the source of their own villainy, not I. Nor can I sign my name to those who roll around in the colors they have spilled.

As a Christian man, I let them be judged by the standard by which they judge others. That comes as no surprise to those not wearing Phanariot blinders.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline WPM

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #139 on: July 19, 2017, 06:36:30 PM »
If going to convenience stores with dollars and cents is your gig.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 06:36:51 PM by WPM »
Learn meditation.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #140 on: July 19, 2017, 09:42:57 PM »
I think you have to dehumanize your brothers and fathers of Turkey because you know your favorite policy would destroy them. The only one of the five Ancient Sees to become extinct, to my knowledge -- what an atrocity. Fortunately where your goals impel you to feel hate, many have competing goals impelled by gratitude and love. So your desired end will be stymied, and Constantinople that gave you birth will be preserved, altho at the cost that the related bad feelings on both sides in some American circles may persist for a time.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #141 on: July 19, 2017, 10:06:20 PM »
I think you have to dehumanize your brothers and fathers of Turkey because you know your favorite policy would destroy them. The only one of the five Ancient Sees to become extinct, to my knowledge -- what an atrocity. Fortunately where your goals impel you to feel hate, many have competing goals impelled by gratitude and love. So your desired end will be stymied, and Constantinople that gave you birth will be preserved, altho at the cost that the related bad feelings on both sides in some American circles may persist for a time.
you ought to have that projection looked into.

Old Rome became extinct long ago. Where have you been? Fortunately, a revival is going on.

The Apostles begot us directly from the Gospel LOOOOOOOONG before the upset arose on the Bosphoros.

I have a lot of favorite policies-which one do you think you are talking about?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline LBK

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #142 on: July 19, 2017, 10:22:45 PM »
Constantinople that gave you birth

Constantinople was not the mother of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria or Rome.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #143 on: July 19, 2017, 10:28:25 PM »
Constantinople that gave you birth

Constantinople was not the mother of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria or Rome.

And none of those were the mother of Russia and the OCA.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline LBK

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #144 on: July 19, 2017, 10:31:26 PM »
Constantinople that gave you birth

Constantinople was not the mother of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria or Rome.

And none of those were the mother of Russia and the OCA.

Last time I checked, ialmisry was a member of neither the Russian church, nor of the OCA. He is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #145 on: July 19, 2017, 10:51:27 PM »
Constantinople that gave you birth

Constantinople was not the mother of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria or Rome.

And none of those were the mother of Russia and the OCA.

Last time I checked, ialmisry was a member of neither the Russian church, nor of the OCA. He is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.

Last time I checked, this wasn't a discussion of Isa's personal life anyway, but of OCA's ambitious claims of which Isa is a fan.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #146 on: July 19, 2017, 11:07:47 PM »
Last time I checked, Diego hasn't shown up here for quite some time which saddens me because he was such an animated little fellow.
God bless!

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #147 on: July 19, 2017, 11:08:35 PM »
Last time I checked, Diego hasn't shown up here for quite some time which saddens me because he was such an animated little fellow.

The guy is six-foot-five and three hundred pounds.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #148 on: July 19, 2017, 11:12:14 PM »
Last time I checked, Diego hasn't shown up here for quite some time which saddens me because he was such an animated littlegiant fellow.

The guy is six-foot-five and three hundred pounds.
Fixed it then.  :P
God bless!

Offline LBK

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #149 on: July 19, 2017, 11:15:01 PM »
Constantinople that gave you birth

Constantinople was not the mother of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria or Rome.

And none of those were the mother of Russia and the OCA.

Last time I checked, ialmisry was a member of neither the Russian church, nor of the OCA. He is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.

Last time I checked, this wasn't a discussion of Isa's personal life anyway, but of OCA's ambitious claims of which Isa is a fan.

You're shifting goalposts. You wrote "which gave you birth". Pretty obvious it was directed to ialmisry, not the OCA. The entire post was aimed squarely at ialmisry. Here it is again:

Quote
I think you have to dehumanize your brothers and fathers of Turkey because you know your favorite policy would destroy them. The only one of the five Ancient Sees to become extinct, to my knowledge -- what an atrocity. Fortunately where your goals impel you to feel hate, many have competing goals impelled by gratitude and love. So your desired end will be stymied, and Constantinople that gave you birth will be preserved, altho at the cost that the related bad feelings on both sides in some American circles may persist for a time.

Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #150 on: July 19, 2017, 11:16:10 PM »
Constantinople that gave you birth

Constantinople was not the mother of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria or Rome.

And none of those were the mother of Russia and the OCA.

Last time I checked, ialmisry was a member of neither the Russian church, nor of the OCA. He is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.

Last time I checked, this wasn't a discussion of Isa's personal life anyway, but of OCA's ambitious claims of which Isa is a fan.

You're shifting goalposts. You wrote "which gave you birth". Pretty obvious it was directed to ialmisry, not the OCA. The entire post was aimed squarely at ialmisry. Here it is again:

Quote
I think you have to dehumanize your brothers and fathers of Turkey because you know your favorite policy would destroy them. The only one of the five Ancient Sees to become extinct, to my knowledge -- what an atrocity. Fortunately where your goals impel you to feel hate, many have competing goals impelled by gratitude and love. So your desired end will be stymied, and Constantinople that gave you birth will be preserved, altho at the cost that the related bad feelings on both sides in some American circles may persist for a time.


You got me. I was thinking I remembered Isa's mother is named Constantinopolita.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 11:17:26 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #151 on: July 19, 2017, 11:16:41 PM »
Last time I checked, Diego hasn't shown up here for quite some time which saddens me because he was such an animated littlegiant fellow.

The guy is six-foot-five and three hundred pounds.
Fixed it then.  :P

I just made that up. That three-way videoconference on Saturday actually never materialized.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #152 on: July 20, 2017, 12:16:07 AM »
I also see that to make your argument you over and over you have to make literal villains out of the men of God in Turkey. Not just that they're liberal, or shady, or whatever but actually paint them as wicked enemies. If you can't sense a problem with this, as a Christian man, I'm surprised.

Are men of God only men of God when they're men of God "in Turkey"?  Because as a Christian man, you sure have no problem villainising the men of God in Russia and the men of God in the United States. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline WPM

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #153 on: July 20, 2017, 12:28:35 AM »
<they didn't want to be caught using illegal hack tool>
Learn meditation.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #154 on: July 20, 2017, 12:28:52 AM »
I also see that to make your argument you over and over you have to make literal villains out of the men of God in Turkey. Not just that they're liberal, or shady, or whatever but actually paint them as wicked enemies. If you can't sense a problem with this, as a Christian man, I'm surprised.

Are men of God only men of God when they're men of God "in Turkey"?  Because as a Christian man, you sure have no problem villainising the men of God in Russia and the men of God in the United States.

I don't think that's fair. I have not called the hierarchs of OCA or Russia names or accused them of being villains, much less implied they should be stamped out. Actually, I have respect and love for the hierarchs of OCA and Russia, especially St. Tikhon, and desire to see peace between all of us. My reactions to Isa here haven't been representative of my whole belief. However, I won't recant either my loyalty to my local church or my love of the Ancient See that oversees us. And I won't be one of those rooting for a Third Rome of the Ancient See of Washington, District of Columbia. God forgive such hubris. And I certainly will continue to be ruffled by blatantly-partisan attacks and distortions, particularly in a vein that drags men of God into the dirt -- after all, isn't that the point of such posts, to arouse displeasure and reaction in the reader?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Online Mor Ephrem

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #155 on: July 20, 2017, 12:36:43 AM »
However, I won't recant either my loyalty to my local church or my love of the Ancient See that oversees us.

I don't think anyone has asked you to do this.  But it happens from time to time that those of us from other equally ancient or even more ancient sees have our own perspectives and legitimate reasons for having them. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #156 on: July 20, 2017, 12:42:13 AM »
However, I won't recant either my loyalty to my local church or my love of the Ancient See that oversees us.

I don't think anyone has asked you to do this.  But it happens from time to time that those of us from other equally ancient or even more ancient sees have our own perspectives and legitimate reasons for having them.

I'm specifically countering the EP-is-an-evil-simulacrum-of-a-See-and-the-SPECTRE-to-OCA's-Bond narrative. And especially the implication of the narrative that the Greek Church in America should be suppressed and the EP dismantled. This has nothing to do with Palestinian grievances with the Hellenizers, for example, which is a very legitimate topic, or certainly nothing to do with Chalcedon. As a matter of fact, my sympathies lie on the other side in both those cases, but to avoid the risk of sounding even more like WGW than I usually do, I'm going to stop there.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #157 on: July 20, 2017, 12:20:58 PM »
However, I won't recant either my loyalty to my local church or my love of the Ancient See that oversees us.

I don't think anyone has asked you to do this.  But it happens from time to time that those of us from other equally ancient or even more ancient sees have our own perspectives and legitimate reasons for having them.

I'm specifically countering the EP-is-an-evil-simulacrum-of-a-See-and-the-SPECTRE-to-OCA's-Bond narrative. And especially the implication of the narrative that the Greek Church in America should be suppressed and the EP dismantled.

Clearly the exaggerations are in your own mind.  ^This is too ludicrous to take seriously. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #158 on: July 20, 2017, 12:24:29 PM »
However, I won't recant either my loyalty to my local church or my love of the Ancient See that oversees us.

I don't think anyone has asked you to do this.  But it happens from time to time that those of us from other equally ancient or even more ancient sees have our own perspectives and legitimate reasons for having them.

I'm specifically countering the EP-is-an-evil-simulacrum-of-a-See-and-the-SPECTRE-to-OCA's-Bond narrative. And especially the implication of the narrative that the Greek Church in America should be suppressed and the EP dismantled.

Clearly the exaggerations are in your own mind.  ^This is too ludicrous to take seriously.

Pretty well encapsulates Isa's take.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #159 on: July 20, 2017, 03:39:05 PM »
However, I won't recant either my loyalty to my local church or my love of the Ancient See that oversees us.

I don't think anyone has asked you to do this.  But it happens from time to time that those of us from other equally ancient or even more ancient sees have our own perspectives and legitimate reasons for having them.

I'm specifically countering the EP-is-an-evil-simulacrum-of-a-See-and-the-SPECTRE-to-OCA's-Bond narrative. And especially the implication of the narrative that the Greek Church in America should be suppressed and the EP dismantled.

Clearly the exaggerations are in your own mind.  ^This is too ludicrous to take seriously.

Pretty well encapsulates Isa's take.
Clearly the exaggerations are in your own mind.  ^This is too ludicrous to take seriously.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #160 on: July 20, 2017, 03:40:40 PM »
However, I won't recant either my loyalty to my local church or my love of the Ancient See that oversees us.

I don't think anyone has asked you to do this.  But it happens from time to time that those of us from other equally ancient or even more ancient sees have our own perspectives and legitimate reasons for having them.

I'm specifically countering the EP-is-an-evil-simulacrum-of-a-See-and-the-SPECTRE-to-OCA's-Bond narrative. And especially the implication of the narrative that the Greek Church in America should be suppressed and the EP dismantled.

Clearly the exaggerations are in your own mind.  ^This is too ludicrous to take seriously.

Pretty well encapsulates Isa's take.
Clearly the exaggerations are in your own mind.  ^This is too ludicrous to take seriously.

I'll accept this bit of puerility as your intention to do better in future.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #161 on: July 20, 2017, 03:45:01 PM »
Constantinople that gave you birth

Constantinople was not the mother of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria or Rome.

And none of those were the mother of Russia and the OCA.

Last time I checked, ialmisry was a member of neither the Russian church, nor of the OCA. He is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.
No, you are right on all scores-except that, as presently in North America, I should be in the OCA.

And I'd add that Rome, Antioch (my present jurisdiction, although my heart belongs to Alexandria) and Jerusalem ARE the mother of Constantinople.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #162 on: July 20, 2017, 03:46:02 PM »
However, I won't recant either my loyalty to my local church or my love of the Ancient See that oversees us.

I don't think anyone has asked you to do this.  But it happens from time to time that those of us from other equally ancient or even more ancient sees have our own perspectives and legitimate reasons for having them.

I'm specifically countering the EP-is-an-evil-simulacrum-of-a-See-and-the-SPECTRE-to-OCA's-Bond narrative. And especially the implication of the narrative that the Greek Church in America should be suppressed and the EP dismantled.

Clearly the exaggerations are in your own mind.  ^This is too ludicrous to take seriously.

Pretty well encapsulates Isa's take.
Clearly the exaggerations are in your own mind.  ^This is too ludicrous to take seriously.

I'll accept this bit of puerility as your intention to do better in future.
I'll take this bit of puerility as your intention to try to do worse in the future.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #163 on: July 20, 2017, 03:48:16 PM »
Constantinople that gave you birth

Constantinople was not the mother of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria or Rome.

And none of those were the mother of Russia and the OCA.

Last time I checked, ialmisry was a member of neither the Russian church, nor of the OCA. He is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.
No, you are right on all scores-except that, as presently in North America, I should be in the OCA.

And I'd add that Rome, Antioch (my present jurisdiction, although my heart belongs to Alexandria) and Jerusalem ARE the mother of Constantinople.

So you even want to give Antioch over to the OCA -- no, it goes beyond wanting, as you say "I should," thereby moralizing and mandating. Even tho in the very next sentence you admit the great ancientness and prestige of that See. So tell me -- is this an American immigrant overcompensation - type thing? Or you're just that big a Russo-phile? Or what?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 03:49:58 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #164 on: July 20, 2017, 04:05:07 PM »
So, Porter, it sounds like you consider the present jurisdictional free-for-all in North America to be desirable. After all, you consider uniting the jurisdictions into one to be a "suppression" of the constituent jurisdictions.
Quote
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- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #165 on: July 20, 2017, 04:25:46 PM »
Constantinople that gave you birth

Constantinople was not the mother of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria or Rome.

And none of those were the mother of Russia and the OCA.

Last time I checked, ialmisry was a member of neither the Russian church, nor of the OCA. He is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.
No, you are right on all scores-except that, as presently in North America, I should be in the OCA.

And I'd add that Rome, Antioch (my present jurisdiction, although my heart belongs to Alexandria) and Jerusalem ARE the mother of Constantinople.

So you even want to give Antioch over to the OCA -- no, it goes beyond wanting, as you say "I should," thereby moralizing and mandating. Even tho in the very next sentence you admit the great ancientness and prestige of that See. So tell me -- is this an American immigrant overcompensation - type thing? Or you're just that big a Russo-phile? Or what?
Facts. Yes, I know your allergy to them.

Give over Antioch? Antioch is in Turkish occupied Syria, not North America, clear on the other side of the globe.

« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 04:27:50 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline WPM

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #166 on: July 20, 2017, 04:45:53 PM »
Doesn't seem to be any basis for existence from where things originate
Learn meditation.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #167 on: July 20, 2017, 05:35:31 PM »
So, Porter, it sounds like you consider the present jurisdictional free-for-all in North America to be desirable. After all, you consider uniting the jurisdictionsbanning all jurisdictions but OCA into one to be a "suppression" of the constituent jurisdictions.

Don't play daft.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #168 on: July 20, 2017, 05:37:41 PM »
Constantinople that gave you birth

Constantinople was not the mother of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria or Rome.

And none of those were the mother of Russia and the OCA.

Last time I checked, ialmisry was a member of neither the Russian church, nor of the OCA. He is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.
No, you are right on all scores-except that, as presently in North America, I should be in the OCA.

And I'd add that Rome, Antioch (my present jurisdiction, although my heart belongs to Alexandria) and Jerusalem ARE the mother of Constantinople.

So you even want to give Antioch over to the OCA -- no, it goes beyond wanting, as you say "I should," thereby moralizing and mandating. Even tho in the very next sentence you admit the great ancientness and prestige of that See. So tell me -- is this an American immigrant overcompensation - type thing? Or you're just that big a Russo-phile? Or what?
Facts. Yes, I know your allergy to them.

Give over Antioch? Antioch is in Turkish occupied Syria, not North America, clear on the other side of the globe.



Yeah and my church is in Turkish-occupied Turkey, not North America; clear on the other side of the globe. How nice we can agree. Now let's give it a rest.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #169 on: July 20, 2017, 05:43:37 PM »
I'm Antiochian, and I love it, but I would prefer that that North America be united and autocephalous
God bless!

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #170 on: July 20, 2017, 07:29:27 PM »
However, I won't recant either my loyalty to my local church or my love of the Ancient See that oversees us.

I don't think anyone has asked you to do this.  But it happens from time to time that those of us from other equally ancient or even more ancient sees have our own perspectives and legitimate reasons for having them.

I'm specifically countering the EP-is-an-evil-simulacrum-of-a-See-and-the-SPECTRE-to-OCA's-Bond narrative. And especially the implication of the narrative that the Greek Church in America should be suppressed and the EP dismantled.

Clearly the exaggerations are in your own mind.  ^This is too ludicrous to take seriously.

Pretty well encapsulates Isa's take.

One may disagree with Isa's style, but I don't think one can say there is no substance behind it without appearing ignorant and foolish.  Of course, one may disagree with the substance, but that requires substance of one's own. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #171 on: July 21, 2017, 12:47:27 AM »
I'm Antiochian, and I love it, but I would prefer that that North America be united and autocephalous

Would what you love about it change if there was a united jurisdiction?
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #172 on: July 21, 2017, 12:51:36 AM »
I'm Antiochian, and I love it, but I would prefer that that North America be united and autocephalous

Would what you love about it change if there was a united jurisdiction?
I would love that we wouldn't be split into all these different groups, that people couldn't go jurisdiction shopping, that efforts of evangelization and missions would be better organized, that we would be in accordance with the canons of the Church instead of a hodgepodge.
God bless!

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #173 on: July 21, 2017, 09:53:20 AM »
I'm Antiochian, and I love it, but I would prefer that that North America be united and autocephalous

Would what you love about it change if there was a united jurisdiction?
I would love that we wouldn't be split into all these different groups, that people couldn't go jurisdiction shopping, that efforts of evangelization and missions would be better organized, that we would be in accordance with the canons of the Church instead of a hodgepodge.

Wow, didn't realize before just how the current situation is really American.

Those in the US

Love or live to shop

Like business structure / capitalism / competition for sales

Is a complete hodgepodge of people / culture / ethnicity
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #174 on: July 21, 2017, 09:57:43 AM »
I'm Antiochian, and I love it, but I would prefer that that North America be united and autocephalous

Would what you love about it change if there was a united jurisdiction?
I would love that we wouldn't be split into all these different groups, that people couldn't go jurisdiction shopping, that efforts of evangelization and missions would be better organized, that we would be in accordance with the canons of the Church instead of a hodgepodge.

I think there will eventually be some kind of canonical order (however we decide to define that in the 21st century), but it'll be along gerrymandered dioceses and the former jurisdiction hopping will just be re-branded as looking for the right parish fit.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #175 on: July 21, 2017, 10:48:17 PM »
I'm Antiochian, and I love it, but I would prefer that that North America be united and autocephalous

Would what you love about it change if there was a united jurisdiction?
I would love that we wouldn't be split into all these different groups, that people couldn't go jurisdiction shopping, that efforts of evangelization and missions would be better organized, that we would be in accordance with the canons of the Church instead of a hodgepodge.
AXIOS!
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #176 on: July 22, 2017, 11:23:13 PM »
I'm Antiochian, and I love it, but I would prefer that that North America be united and autocephalous

Would what you love about it change if there was a united jurisdiction?
I would love that we wouldn't be split into all these different groups, that people couldn't go jurisdiction shopping, that efforts of evangelization and missions would be better organized, that we would be in accordance with the canons of the Church instead of a hodgepodge.

I think there will eventually be some kind of canonical order (however we decide to define that in the 21st century), but it'll be along gerrymandered dioceses and the former jurisdiction hopping will just be re-branded as looking for the right parish fit.
Even if that is true, at least it will be a good step forward. It is not bad to have diversity within unity.
God bless!

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #177 on: July 22, 2017, 11:35:17 PM »
I'm Antiochian, and I love it, but I would prefer that that North America be united and autocephalous

Would what you love about it change if there was a united jurisdiction?
I would love that we wouldn't be split into all these different groups, that people couldn't go jurisdiction shopping, that efforts of evangelization and missions would be better organized, that we would be in accordance with the canons of the Church instead of a hodgepodge.

What is "jurisdiction shopping" and why is it a bad thing?  Just curious.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #178 on: July 22, 2017, 11:37:29 PM »
I would love that we wouldn't be split into all these different groups, that people couldn't go jurisdiction shopping, that efforts of evangelization and missions would be better organized, that we would be in accordance with the canons of the Church instead of a hodgepodge.

You can take the person out of Evangelicalism, but it takes a bit to get the Evangelicalism out of the person. I don't think unifying jurisdictions, when it happens, will make this process of purging the inner man any faster, but maybe you're right and it will.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #179 on: July 22, 2017, 11:41:43 PM »
I'm Antiochian, and I love it, but I would prefer that that North America be united and autocephalous

Would what you love about it change if there was a united jurisdiction?
I would love that we wouldn't be split into all these different groups, that people couldn't go jurisdiction shopping, that efforts of evangelization and missions would be better organized, that we would be in accordance with the canons of the Church instead of a hodgepodge.

What is "jurisdiction shopping" and why is it a bad thing?  Just curious.
Hopping in between jurisdictions. I don't see it as big of a deal for laypersons, but then you have situations like Nathan Monk where he approached the Antiochian Archdiocese to be accepted as a priest, they refused him, and then he went to ROCOR who accepted him and then it blew up in their face.  Similarly, with Archbishop Lazar Puhalo, he was a deacon in ROCOR, wandered around vagante for awhile and then got brought in under OCA as an archbishop. If it was all one jurisdiction, such things wouldn't happen.
God bless!