Author Topic: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here  (Read 3725 times)

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Offline Diego

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Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« on: July 08, 2017, 10:42:07 PM »
Although this is a rather old thread, I thought I would enter it, perhaps gingerly. It is interesting to note that in the C of E, and the Books of Common Prayer used by Anglican Ordinariate Catholics,  and Western Rite Orthodox, the result is often a rejection of Modern English, and a preference for EARLY Modern English (conmonly called "King James English" by Americans who do not know better). In reality, Prayer Book English is Henrician/Elizabethan English, but that's as may be.

Lutherans in America began using this form of English as opposed to German, Finnish, Swedish, Norwegian, and Danish right around the time of WWI, when using German, or any language vaguely similar to German, was a very bad idea, and could get you arrested, or even killed. Finnish sounds nothing like German, of course, but they followed their Lutheran brothers when the rest of them started translating their Liturgies. At first, the Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, and Finnish liturgies held their own even in English translation. But eventually, all of those traditions lost out to the Service of 1888, translated from the German to the English in that year.

Today, most of the Liturgies used by Lutherans are in some sense derived from the German Service translated into English in 1888. This Service itself is called the Common Service of 1888, and is in virtually EVERY Service Book of ANY Lutheran denomination. All of the other offerings are usually different from Church to Church. ELCA has 9 other settings for Holy Communion in addition to the Common Service, LCMS has 4 others, etc. Unfortunately, ALL of the Services, including the Common Service,  are in Modern English. ELCA also uses Gender Neutral language (GROSS!).

Some LCMS Churches have rejected today's Service Book and still use the 1941, with only the Common Service in Early Modern English.

I HAVE noticed that here in the Midwest, some LCMS Churches are beginning to have GERMAN Services at least once a month, and rarely more often. The Missouri Synod derives from Germany, so this renewed interest in our heritage is great, in my mind.

As for whether the Greek Church is right or wrong to go back to Koine Greek, I do not know. They are perhaps right, but for the wrong reasons. Restore the language of the NT, but not because of young people attending or not attending. Do it because its the right thing to do, or not, as the case may be.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 10:43:12 PM by Diego »

Offline augustin717

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2017, 10:47:42 PM »
So is German a sacred language in the Lutheran religion?
She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2017, 10:55:04 PM »
So is German a sacred language in the Lutheran religion?

German was the second-most spoken language and the most-published language in the United States until WWI (when it was suppressed). There are still Lutheran churches where German is used. However, if you want to see real dedication to the idea German is a sacred language, check out the anabaptist and pietist sects that migrated from German-speaking countries -- they tend to be poorly-educated in today's terms, and they definitely believe church must be conducted in German to be truly Christian. Some say German was spoken in the Garden of Eden and will be spoken in heaven -- and if that sounds like a joke or slur, I can attest I've heard it said with my own ears. Probably it dates to Lutheran polemics with Jews.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 10:56:01 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2017, 10:58:50 PM »
Even Muslims and Buddhists will use very conservative registers when translating their sacred texts into Western languages, it seems to be a religiously formalist thing over than merely Christian practice.
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2017, 11:02:28 PM »
So is German a sacred language in the Lutheran religion?

German was the second-most spoken language and the most-published language in the United States until WWI (when it was suppressed). There are still Lutheran churches where German is used. However, if you want to see real dedication to the idea German is a sacred language, check out the anabaptist and pietist sects that migrated from German-speaking countries -- they tend to be poorly-educated in today's terms, and they definitely believe church must be conducted in German to be truly Christian. Some say German was spoken in the Garden of Eden and will be spoken in heaven -- and if that sounds like a joke or slur, I can attest I've heard it said with my own ears. Probably it dates to Lutheran polemics with Jews.
very interesting. I vaguely remember reading in a Delumeau book if I'm not mistaken about German scholars proving from the Bible that german was spoken in paradise but the serpent addressed Eve in French.
She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2017, 11:11:25 PM »
very interesting. I vaguely remember reading in a Delumeau book if I'm not mistaken about German scholars proving from the Bible that german was spoken in paradise but the serpent addressed Eve in French.

Well there's your problem.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline augustin717

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2017, 11:16:19 PM »
very interesting. I vaguely remember reading in a Delumeau book if I'm not mistaken about German scholars proving from the Bible that german was spoken in paradise but the serpent addressed Eve in French.

Well there's your problem.
I don't think I get it.  He's a Catholic iirc.
She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2017, 11:17:02 PM »
very interesting. I vaguely remember reading in a Delumeau book if I'm not mistaken about German scholars proving from the Bible that german was spoken in paradise but the serpent addressed Eve in French.

Well there's your problem.
I don't think I get it.  He's a Catholic iirc.

Do you have any idea how many Catholics there are? Better to look at his work than at his baptism.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline augustin717

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2017, 11:31:14 PM »
very interesting. I vaguely remember reading in a Delumeau book if I'm not mistaken about German scholars proving from the Bible that german was spoken in paradise but the serpent addressed Eve in French.

Well there's your problem.
I don't think I get it.  He's a Catholic iirc.

Do you have any idea how many Catholics there are? Better to look at his work than at his baptism.
ha! But he put forward a good theory as to how Xtianity was transmitted in Europe up to maybe early 20th century I don't remember the exact terminus point. He makes a good argument that it was almost always from grandparents to grandchildren and how the emergence of the nuclear family messed up the mechanism. So this led to the secularization of today .
She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2017, 11:59:08 PM »
I do not think that the Anabaptist (like the Amish, the Mennonites, the Hutterites, et al) view of German being used in Paradise had anything to do with us. Luther WAS an anti-Semite. But he also HATED the Anabaptists. So did EVERYBODY. They were burnt at the stake as heretics by Catholics, Calvinists, Lutherans, AND Anglicans. On the OTHER hand, Lutherans in Sweden and Anglicans in England  generally executed Roman Catholics as traitors to the State for being THE WRONG KIND OF CATHOLIC!! In other words, the Churches of England and Sweden perceived themselves to be Catholic, and Roman Catholics were NOT heretics, but rather, traitors.

The fact that the various Anabaptists kept using Geman and often still do is indeed because they perceive the language as sacred. Lutherans continuing to use their National Languages was simply the fact that most of them preferred them, just as some Russians prefer NON-English services even in the USA.

Why are MODERN American Lutherans using the Common Service of 1888 in English, even when their Church heritage is, for example, Swedish, and the Common Service is derived from German? Simple: there were and are A LOT more Lutherans of German descent in the USA than from other countries. So, in the urge to unify all Lutheran Churches in the 20th Century, which Missouri Synod rejected in the late 1970's, German heritage as a basic choice ended up winning the day. There is still a very tiny Synod, the Evangelical Lutheran Synod, headquartered in Minnesota, that still uses the Norwegian Service, albeit in Modern English.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 12:00:21 AM by Diego »

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2017, 12:04:07 AM »
This of course does not change the fact that Missouri Synod Lutherans DO joke about the fact that Scripture was written in German, as all educated people know! But for us, this is German humour. The Anabaptists actually believe this.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2017, 12:05:36 AM »
Hellenistic Greek is rather similar to Classical Greek. Assuming that the Greek language has evolved as other languages have, I would say that Hellenistic Greek would be incomprhensible to the modern Greek speaker.
I'm not a native speaker of Greek, just a student, but my teacher, who speaks Greek natively, stated that she comprehends it.  From my personal experience, the differences are similar in degree to what a native English speaker would find in reading Shakespeare.
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Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2017, 12:21:23 AM »
SHARBEL, that was what I was told by a young Greek lady whom I knew in college. A friend of mine was speaking Classical Greek, and said Greek lady looked at him and said, "I know what you are saying, but that is NOT Standard Modern Greek. You must be using the Classical Form!" I asked her about it, and she compared it to Henrician/Elizabethan English.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2017, 12:25:43 AM »
I personally can PAINFULLY and SLOWLY work my way through a Greek Testament, but it is HORRIBLE torture on my brain to do it! And God forfend that I should try to say any of it ALOUD! Anybody with any knowledge of it would have me arrested for the butchery that would result!

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2017, 12:28:34 AM »
very interesting. I vaguely remember reading in a Delumeau book if I'm not mistaken about German scholars proving from the Bible that german was spoken in paradise but the serpent addressed Eve in French.

Well there's your problem.
I don't think I get it.  He's a Catholic iirc.

Do you have any idea how many Catholics there are? Better to look at his work than at his baptism.
ha! But he put forward a good theory as to how Xtianity was transmitted in Europe up to maybe early 20th century I don't remember the exact terminus point. He makes a good argument that it was almost always from grandparents to grandchildren and how the emergence of the nuclear family messed up the mechanism. So this led to the secularization of today .

Considering the European Church took its nosedive circa 1500, he might want to rethink that theory.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2017, 12:32:20 AM »
Hellenistic Greek is rather similar to Classical Greek. Assuming that the Greek language has evolved as other languages have, I would say that Hellenistic Greek would be incomprhensible to the modern Greek speaker.
I'm not a native speaker of Greek, just a student, but my teacher, who speaks Greek natively, stated that she comprehends it.  From my personal experience, the differences are similar in degree to what a native English speaker would find in reading Shakespeare.

A version of classical Greek was being taught in the schools until the early '90s, I believe. Conservative newspapers, for example, still use it. So her understanding Hellenistic Greek probably doesn't really prove anything about the relationship of classical Greek to demotic.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2017, 12:33:08 AM »
SHARBEL, that was what I was told by a young Greek lady whom I knew in college. A friend of mine was speaking Classical Greek, and said Greek lady looked at him and said, "I know what you are saying, but that is NOT Standard Modern Greek. You must be using the Classical Form!" I asked her about it, and she compared it to Henrician/Elizabethan English.

Nobody talks about "Henrician English."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2017, 12:44:01 AM »
You are right. Because most Americans are too lacking in knowledge regarding English to know about it. You would be ASTOUNDED at the level of functional illiteracy in this country. The average newspaper is written at the 8th Grade level. The NY Times is written at the 12th Grade level. I can speak Henrician English as well as I can Modern English, thank you very much.

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2017, 12:46:05 AM »
The pronunciation was RADICALLY different that far back, and spelling was not regulated well at all.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2017, 12:50:21 AM »
You are right. Because most Americans are too lacking in knowledge regarding English to know about it. You would be ASTOUNDED at the level of functional illiteracy in this country. The average newspaper is written at the 8th Grade level. The NY Times is written at the 12th Grade level. I can speak Henrician English as well as I can Modern English, thank you very much.

Give me five major ways the English of Henry's time differed from that of Elizabeth or James's.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2017, 12:59:12 AM »
From Henry to Elizabeth, there was very little if any change. By the time you reach the Jacobean Period, pronunciation had largely approached today's English as is taught in the public schools of England today, namely, that which is native to the Canterbury-Kent region, and is taught at the Ox-bridge Universities. Of course, Jacobean English still had the informal "thou" verb form (comparable to "tu" in Spanish), but by Jacobean times the final "e" letter in words had become silent, as well as making other vowels long, as in the word "time". In Henrician times, that "e" was pronounced. Also in Jacobean times, the orthography of the language was more settled and regular, although it was not completely settled and firm until the latter part of the 17th and the early part of the 18th centuries.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 01:01:21 AM by Diego »

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2017, 01:03:47 AM »
In Henrician English, the word "time" was pronounced more like "tam-e".

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2017, 01:07:36 AM »
The "a" letter there was halfway between a short "a" and a long "a".

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2017, 01:23:53 AM »
Hahaha. Yes, there was the Great Vowel Shift in Early Modern English. Nothing special to Henry's time. Again, who says "Henrician English"?

I'll let you off the hook if, instead, you can answer some more general questions worthy of your prowess. What were the seven uses of the subjunctive mood in Early Modern English? What was the common name for Christ in Old English? I don't think the answers can be Googled, but if so I'll let you win anyway for effort.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2017, 01:50:03 AM »
It is 12.40 am here. Yes, I could answer all that, but I would have to think about it far harder than I wish to at present. I believe you asked for five differences, and I believe I provided them. One of the names for Christ commonly used in speech was "Jesu", with the "J" sounding like a "Y".

And the term "Henrician" is often used in England to refer to the time period and the language used then. Sometimes "Tudor" is used to describe the architecture of the period. The fact that I was blessed with a somewhat British education (blame the Anglican Priests of my childhood, who were from England) is not my fault. Thank God I was not stuck wih an inferior American education!

In addition, I encourage you to grow up, even if only slightly. At present, your behaviour is more reminiscent of a twelve-year-old as opposed to an adult.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 01:51:23 AM by Diego »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2017, 02:10:58 AM »
It is 12.40 am here. Yes, I could answer all that, but I would have to think about it far harder than I wish to at present. I believe you asked for five differences, and I believe I provided them. One of the names for Christ commonly used in speech was "Jesu", with the "J" sounding like a "Y".

And the term "Henrician" is often used in England to refer to the time period and the language used then. Sometimes "Tudor" is used to describe the architecture of the period. The fact that I was blessed with a somewhat British education (blame the Anglican Priests of my childhood, who were from England) is not my fault. Thank God I was not stuck wih an inferior American education!

In addition, I encourage you to grow up, even if only slightly. At present, your behaviour is more reminiscent of a twelve-year-old as opposed to an adult.

1.  You failed to give me one thing to differentiate the language of Henry's era from other Early Modern English. The use of "thou"? Are you kidding me? Your vague maneuvers smacked of desperation, in my opinion. Moreover, you said "From Henry to Elizabeth, there was very little if any change." So say Elizabethan English like a normal student.

2.  It's being 12:40 shouldn't affect the extraordinarily deep knowledge you have claimed to have on the forums of English from Saxon times to the present.

3.  "I was blessed with a somewhat British education." So say so, rather than these claims you've made to be one of the deepest students of English linguistics in the world.

4.  Is it childish of me to ask you to back up some of your wild claims? Especially considering you use your vague but extreme claims as bases for arguing all kinds of things, including things of God. I think it's only mature. However, your flailing once I put you on the spot is reminiscient of a "twelve-year-old opposed to an adult," as you picturesquely put it.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2017, 02:28:57 AM »
What you call "flailing" most people call sense. Let us review:

1. The fact that orthography became more regularised.

2. The fact that pronunciation changed radically.

3. The fact that as part of that change, the "e" at the end of words stopped being pronounced.

I miscounted. So I shall add...

4. By Jacobean times, much of the vocabulary used in the Henrician period had been dropped. The language adopted more Norman French, Greek, and Latin neo-logisms. This was in part due to the fact that Henry himself had in 1509 made English the official language of Government.  Prior to this, French of the Norman variety had been used. This change encouraged the development of English, which began to change very rapidly, and continues to do so.

5. Shakespeare himself in Elizabethan/Jacobean times invented a good 350 or so words that immediately achieved common use. One of these is "assassin".

Please, I realise that your knowledge is lacking. You do NOT have to make it so painfully obvious.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 02:30:34 AM by Diego »

Offline LBK

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2017, 02:51:41 AM »
nues to do so.

5. Shakespeare himself in Elizabethan/Jacobean times invented a good 350 or so words that immediately achieved common use. One of these is "assassin".

Please, I realise that your knowledge is lacking. You do NOT have to make it so painfully obvious.

Shakespeare invented many words, but assassin is not one of them. It was already in use for a few centuries before his time.
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Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2017, 02:54:43 AM »
This is not what I have read, but it is possible that he invented the verb "assassinate". Perhaps my memory fails at this early morning hour. I am not the Pope, and do not claim infallibility.

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2017, 03:01:44 AM »
What you call "flailing" most people call sense. Let us review:

1. The fact that orthography became more regularised.

It did not become markedly so during Henry as opposed to Elizabeth. That is, this is simply an elementary school -level observation about the Early Modern period of English all around.

Quote
2. The fact that pronunciation changed radically.

The Great Vowel Shift was not particularly confined to Henry's reign. In fact, it began in the 1300s as I recall. But again, it's a simple ingredient of EM English overall.

Quote
3. The fact that as part of that change, the "e" at the end of words stopped being pronounced.

I miscounted. So I shall add...

4. By Jacobean times, much of the vocabulary used in the Henrician period had been dropped.[/quote]

What are some examples of all this vocabulary that was lost with Henry?

Quote
The language adopted more Norman French, Greek, and Latin neo-logisms. This was in part due to the fact that Henry himself had in 1509 made English the official language of Government.  Prior to this, French of the Norman variety had been used. This change encouraged the development of English, which began to change very rapidly, and continues to do so.

Early Modern English didn't begin with a decree of Henry's. That would make the period uniquely remarkable.

Quote
5. Shakespeare himself in Elizabethan/Jacobean times invented a good 350 or so words that immediately achieved common use. One of these is "assassin".

Please, I realise that your knowledge is lacking. You do NOT have to make it so painfully obvious.

You're churning out a lot of elementary observations, but that's not what I've asked you for.
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Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2017, 03:12:25 AM »
You asked for FIVE (5) differences. I gave them. The fact that you cannot count is not my fault. Incidentally, if I spoke to you in Henrician English, you WOULD understand me based on your knowledge of Modern English. If I used Chaucerian English, commonly called Middle English, you would not. And he lived in the 15th Century. English of the 14th Century would be even less comprehensible.

That is why Henrician English is called "Early Modern English". And that designation is applied by most historians (and I have my MA in early Renaissance English history, thank you) beginning with Henry's declaration of English as official for Government in 1509. Please, do TRY and THINK. I realise that you are likely to be unsuccessful in that attempt, but trying would help.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 03:13:08 AM by Diego »

Offline LBK

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2017, 03:18:18 AM »
You asked for FIVE (5) differences. I gave them. The fact that you cannot count is not my fault. Incidentally, if I spoke to you in Henrician English, you WOULD understand me based on your knowledge of Modern English. If I used Chaucerian English, commonly called Middle English, you would not. And he lived in the 15th Century. English of the 14th Century would be even less comprehensible.


Chaucer lived in the mid to late 1300s. That puts him in the 14th century, not the 15th.  :P
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Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2017, 03:20:12 AM »
Was not Chaucer 1400s? Now I think of it, no! Le Morte D'Arthur was. Chaucer was earlier. Ok. The point is still accurate.

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2017, 03:21:21 AM »
If I used Chaucerian English, appropriately commonly called Middle English,

Fixed.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 03:21:35 AM by hecma925 »
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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2017, 03:24:32 AM »
An unnecessary fix, but the word is accurate, so I shall not quibble.

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2017, 03:31:47 AM »
For being a historian, you're not very accurate.
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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2017, 03:33:50 AM »
It is 2.30 in the morning! Grow up! My mind is not razor-sharp at this hour. Besides, the minor errors I have made in no way invalidate my argument.

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2017, 03:37:20 AM »
It is 2.30 in the morning! Grow up! My mind is not razor-sharp at this hour. Besides, the minor errors I have made in no way invalidate my argument.

Time of day or not, Chaucer's life and the origin of assassin should be bread-and-butter knowledge for someone who claims credentials such as yours. Sloppy mistakes like this don't exactly help your cause, and berating people over them pointing them out doesn't, either.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 03:37:39 AM by LBK »
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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2017, 03:41:22 AM »
Like I said, the first was "assassinate" . Pretty close for 2.00 am. The second was just dumb, but does not affect the validity of the argument. Perhaps if you acted more in the manner of an adult, rather than a child being nit-picky, you would realise that.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 03:42:13 AM by Diego »

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2017, 03:45:16 AM »
Like I said, the first was "assassinate" . Pretty close for 2.00 am. The second was just dumb, but does not affect the validity of the argument. Perhaps if you acted more in the manner of an adult, rather than a chilf being nit-picky, you would realise that.

Not being nitpicky at all. The errors were pretty obvious. You really should be more careful when you post. If you're tired, then sign off and go to bed.

Hurling insults and invective is hardly the way grown-ups behave, either.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 03:46:10 AM by LBK »
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Offline Diego

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2017, 03:48:09 AM »
I am not insulting at all. And hurling invective? I could do that in four languages. You would not know what hit you if I did. Telling you to act your age is hardly an insult.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 03:48:41 AM by Diego »

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2017, 03:52:38 AM »
Again, who says "Henrician English"?

Not a single professor I have ever met and learned from; crossing nationalities and educational disciplines.
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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2017, 03:53:21 AM »
You asked for FIVE (5) differences. I gave them. The fact that you cannot count is not my fault. Incidentally, if I spoke to you in Henrician English, you WOULD understand me based on your knowledge of Modern English. If I used Chaucerian English, commonly called Middle English, you would not. And he lived in the 15th Century. English of the 14th Century would be even less comprehensible.


Chaucer lived in the mid to late 1300s. That puts him in the 14th century, not the 15th.  :P

Oh, yes, by all means address me in English accurately of Chaucer, Henry, and Elizabeth. I can't wait.
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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2017, 03:58:41 AM »
Virtually all my professors of British history from undergraduate and graduate school used the term. The fact that my education in that field is better than yours is not my fault.

I could NOT address you in Middle English. I can read it to a point, but not with accurate pronunciation. I could address you verbally in Henrician English. But that would require audio connection between us. Since I do not even like or respect you, I hardly want to get to know you that well.

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Re: Off-topic Lutheran Propaganda Nonsense Goes Here
« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2017, 03:59:34 AM »
I am not insulting at all. And hurling invective? I could do that in four languages. You would not know what hit you if I did. Telling you to act your age is hardly an insult.

Shrilly telling people off for pointing out basic errors you've made is childish. I imagine most people would happily let a few things slide on account of the time of night you're posting, but your increasingly tetchy reactions aren't helping your cause.

As for your multilingual capacity to swear, so what? Bluster and hot air, nothing more. Go to bed, Diego.
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