Author Topic: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?  (Read 1124 times)

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Offline TaiKamiya720

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Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« on: July 09, 2017, 10:48:58 AM »
I was born and raised as a Catholic. Last year, I left the Catholic Church to look at Eastern Orthodoxy or Oriental Orthodoxy. At that time I chose Eastern Orthodoxy because I thought the Oriental Orthodox were Monophysites. Now, while I had a discussion with a Coptic Orthodox, he told me that what the Oriental Orthodox believe about the Christology is pretty much the same as the Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant belief when I told him that when I left the Catholic Church, I've considered Oriental Orthodoxy. That is to say, I learned that the Oriental Orthodox Miaphytism is about.
About the Chalcedonian debate, I know for sure that Jesus had two natures, fully man and fully human. Without a fully human nature, Jesus could not reunite us with God's holiness and He could not be the "new Adam". But, that is all I know about that.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2017, 12:22:47 PM »
Neither position is heretical. There must be more to choosing a parish than Chalcedon?
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Offline kijabeboy03

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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2017, 02:07:08 AM »
Why not visit the Orthodox parishes near you and join the one that's best fit for you?
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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2017, 01:25:01 PM »
I was born and raised as a Catholic. Last year, I left the Catholic Church to look at Eastern Orthodoxy or Oriental Orthodoxy. At that time I chose Eastern Orthodoxy because I thought the Oriental Orthodox were Monophysites. Now, while I had a discussion with a Coptic Orthodox, he told me that what the Oriental Orthodox believe about the Christology is pretty much the same as the Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant belief when I told him that when I left the Catholic Church, I've considered Oriental Orthodoxy. That is to say, I learned that the Oriental Orthodox Miaphytism is about.
About the Chalcedonian debate, I know for sure that Jesus had two natures, fully man and fully human. Without a fully human nature, Jesus could not reunite us with God's holiness and He could not be the "new Adam". But, that is all I know about that.
Dear TaiKamiya,

When you posted this, were you leading up to a question, like whether "what the Oriental Orthodox believe about the Christology is pretty much the same as the Eastern Orthodox" believe, or whether the Oriental Orthodox Church agrees that "Jesus had two natures, fully man and fully human" ones?
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2017, 01:33:23 PM »
My advice is just stay put.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2017, 01:38:39 PM »
I was born and raised as a Catholic. Last year, I left the Catholic Church to look at Eastern Orthodoxy or Oriental Orthodoxy. At that time I chose Eastern Orthodoxy because I thought the Oriental Orthodox were Monophysites. Now, while I had a discussion with a Coptic Orthodox, he told me that what the Oriental Orthodox believe about the Christology is pretty much the same as the Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant belief when I told him that when I left the Catholic Church, I've considered Oriental Orthodoxy. That is to say, I learned that the Oriental Orthodox Miaphytism is about.
About the Chalcedonian debate, I know for sure that Jesus had two natures, fully man and fully human. Without a fully human nature, Jesus could not reunite us with God's holiness and He could not be the "new Adam". But, that is all I know about that.
Dear TaiKamiya,

When you posted this, were you leading up to a question, like whether "what the Oriental Orthodox believe about the Christology is pretty much the same as the Eastern Orthodox" believe, or whether the Oriental Orthodox Church agrees that "Jesus had two natures, fully man and fully human" ones?

This is a discussion best avoided.  I would instead urge TaiKamya, if she has any concerns on this point, to refer to Orthodox Christology, by Father Peter Farrington, which clarifies how the Oriental faith is that of St. Cyril, and thus, that of most EOs (and specifically, that our Lord from His full humanity reunites us with the divine nature of God through the mystery of the Incarnation).
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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2017, 01:41:03 PM »
Fr Peter should be avoided.
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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2017, 04:08:43 PM »
Yes, it is probably best to avoid me.
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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2017, 04:13:33 PM »
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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2017, 04:59:40 PM »
Fr Peter should be avoided.

Why?
+1

Personally, I really respect fr. Peter for his articles being "for" Orthodox unity and rbringing something new, not only claiming "we, OOs and EOs are both Orthodox and that's enough".
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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2017, 05:09:52 PM »
Fr Peter should be avoided.

Why?
Because I thought (and again this was years ago when he was active and I spent a lot of time over EOvsOO) his technical Christological arguments were strange, awkward and unclear. That's not to say EOs aren't guilty of this either (I might share a story with you on a conversation I had on this very topic with my priest, if you are interested), it's just I never could take Fr. Peter seriously.

Don't worry I never took him as the final word on OO Christology, which I am sympathetic towards, but when it starts to get technical I start to wince. The same goes for "two natures" language and saying stuff like "Well Christ's humanity was withheld so his divinity could raise Lazarus from the dead" which seems arbitrary to me. There seems to be this tendency where crypto-nestorianism can appear.

I'd rather keep things simple and stupid because Orthodoxy is totally and completely paradoxical, which I feel gets lost in the technical jargon between both traditions. Sure I can understand why these disputes were necessary over the centuries but I have no problem embracing the paradox that the ineffable, unknowable, uncreated, transcendent, infinite, eternal God became finite, grew in wisdom, aged, etc. Christ is God. So that means God hungered. God fasted. God cried. God healed the sick. God told parables. The Theotokos gave birth to God (talk about a total headtrip!), God suffered. God died. God rose from the dead. It's not "God suffered in his humanity" or "God gave sight to the blind by his divinity". That's nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures. Yes I agree Christ is fully God and fully man at all times and experienced everything during his earthly ministry that way, so that's where I have a lot of fondness towards OOs when it's not expressed so exactingly.

But anyway, you might think that's very vulgar but for me a god I can relate to, personable. Worthy of worship, praise and celebration. I just don't care much for the how many angels can dance on the head of a pin arguments.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 05:12:22 PM by nothing »
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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2017, 05:33:53 PM »
nothing,

I can sympathise with where you're coming from.  But even if you and I are comfortable with a "simpler" presentation of this truth, it is the case that a "more complex" presentation became necessary in the past because of confusion.  If Fr Peter is able to navigate those rough waters for the benefit of others, I think that's an asset, not a reason to avoid him. 

In any case, feel free to PM me the story about your priest.  I love hearing about other OCNetters' priests.  ;)
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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2017, 05:40:06 PM »
I think, Nothing, that your ideal of a non-credal Orthodoxy is probably unique on this forum and so it's not very likely your objections to Fr. Peter's work are going to be the objections anybody else would have to it.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2017, 05:46:21 PM »
I think, Nothing, that your ideal of a non-credal Orthodoxy is probably unique on this forum and so it's not very likely your objections to Fr. Peter's work are going to be the objections anybody else would have to it.

Indeed.  There was more than a faint whiff of sola scriptura in your post, nothing.
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Offline RobS

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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2017, 05:48:02 PM »
I can sympathise with where you're coming from.  But even if you and I are comfortable with a "simpler" presentation of this truth, it is the case that a "more complex" presentation became necessary in the past because of confusion.  If Fr Peter is able to navigate those rough waters for the benefit of others, I think that's an asset, not a reason to avoid him.

Maybe I should have been more careful in my previous post, but my recollection of what I have read and listened to (podcasts), Fr. Peter renders complexity into even more complexity to the point it becomes totally incoherent. That's why I said it's best to avoid him because you won't find clarity. But that's just my opinion and maybe the OP finds something illuminating in his works. He will have to decide that for himself.
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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2017, 05:52:03 PM »
I think, Nothing, that your ideal of a non-credal Orthodoxy is probably unique on this forum and so it's not very likely your objections to Fr. Peter's work are going to be the objections anybody else would have to it.
I understand that however my objections don't necessarily reside in my position, whatever that is.

I think, Nothing, that your ideal of a non-credal Orthodoxy is probably unique on this forum and so it's not very likely your objections to Fr. Peter's work are going to be the objections anybody else would have to it.

Indeed.  There was more than a faint whiff of sola scriptura in your post, nothing.
I'm not a theologian, scholar or layman. Even less than a dilettante. I'm more than willing to concede I am wrong about what I have posted, I have no pride in defending it.

I would like to know however what you find bothersome in my post that says it was worse than simply some kind of sola scriptura. Where have I erred?
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2017, 03:29:10 AM »
If Fr Peter is able to navigate those rough waters for the benefit of others
From the EO-OO Christology war of 2011, I don't recall this being the case.

I remember something about Jesus's Divine Knowledge being like a cloud server and Jesus's human brain being a lookup list.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 03:30:09 AM by NicholasMyra »
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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2017, 08:37:12 AM »
As a Chalcedonian, I would have no hesitation in recommending the Oriental Orthodox communion. They share the same faith, just word it a bit differently than we do.


I will admit to being somewhat confused by the dig against Fr. Peter. I have always really enjoyed his comments.
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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2017, 09:59:48 AM »
If Fr Peter is able to navigate those rough waters for the benefit of others
From the EO-OO Christology war of 2011, I don't recall this being the case.

I remember something about Jesus's Divine Knowledge being like a cloud server and Jesus's human brain being a lookup list.

I wasn't here in 2011, but I'm fairly sure I don't trust your version. 
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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2017, 10:03:29 AM »
I remember something about Jesus's Divine Knowledge being like a cloud server and Jesus's human brain being a lookup list.

A problem for both sides of Chalcedon, so let's not get smug.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2017, 11:12:44 AM »
As a Chalcedonian, I would have no hesitation in recommending the Oriental Orthodox communion. They share the same faith, just word it a bit differently than we do.

Amen.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2017, 11:30:51 AM »
I remember something about Jesus's Divine Knowledge being like a cloud server and Jesus's human brain being a lookup list.

A problem for both sides of Chalcedon, so let's not get smug.
Have i been a triumphal chalcedonian? no. half the defenders of that idea back then were chalc
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 11:31:25 AM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline Remnkemi

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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2017, 01:02:21 PM »
Christ is God. So that means God hungered. God fasted. God cried. God healed the sick. God told parables. The Theotokos gave birth to God (talk about a total headtrip!), God suffered. God died. God rose from the dead.
Ironically, I read this and thought "Sounds like Oriental Orthodoxy to the fullest. Not complex at all."

Quote
It's not "God suffered in his humanity" or "God gave sight to the blind by his divinity". That's nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures.
Then I read this and thought "Sounds like an indictment on Leo's Tome. Requires an equally "complex" response from OO, just like Fr Peter has done for years."


Quote
I just don't care much for the how many angels can dance on the head of a pin arguments.
Then I read this and thought "Leo of Rome, Flavian, Eutyches, Juvenal, Theodore of Mospuesta, Ibas the Iberian, Theodoret. Eusebius of Doryleum, Domonus of Antioch, Henotikon. Leontius of Byzantium, John Damasacus, Maximus the Confessor, Rakovsky, what else do I have to say? We didn't start the fire. It was always burning since the world's been turning. We didn't start the fire. No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it."
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 01:08:55 PM by Remnkemi »

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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2017, 01:27:57 PM »
I just don't care much for the how many angels can dance on the head of a pin arguments.
Then I read this and thought "Leo of Rome, Flavian, Eutyches, Juvenal, Theodore of Mospuesta, Ibas the Iberian, Theodoret. Eusebius of Doryleum, Domonus of Antioch, Henotikon. Leontius of Byzantium, John Damasacus, Maximus the Confessor, Rakovsky, what else do I have to say? We didn't start the fire. It was always burning since the world's been turning. We didn't start the fire. No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it."

LOL!
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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2017, 02:01:39 PM »
Then I read this and thought "Leo of Rome, Flavian, Eutyches, Juvenal, Theodore of Mospuesta, Ibas the Iberian, Theodoret. Eusebius of Doryleum, Domonus of Antioch, Henotikon. Leontius of Byzantium, John Damasacus, Maximus the Confessor, Rakovsky, what else do I have to say? We didn't start the fire. It was always burning since the world's been turning. We didn't start the fire. No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it."
Dear Remnkemi:
Since you mentioned me, I would like to ask you about what you wrote. Did the first direct and personal excommunication by one of our two communions of any leader of the other communion occur when Dioscorus and Ephesus II excommunicated the EO Saint Patriarch Flavian, either for his teaching that Christ had two natures or for Flavian's excommunication of the monophysite Eutyches?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 02:05:17 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2017, 02:03:32 PM »
Then I read this and thought "Leo of Rome, Flavian, Eutyches, Juvenal, Theodore of Mospuesta, Ibas the Iberian, Theodoret. Eusebius of Doryleum, Domonus of Antioch, Henotikon. Leontius of Byzantium, John Damasacus, Maximus the Confessor, Rakovsky, what else do I have to say? We didn't start the fire. It was always burning since the world's been turning. We didn't start the fire. No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it."
Dear Remnkemi:
Since you mentioned me, I would like to ask a question about what you wrote. Was the first time that any leaders of our two communions were personally and directly excommunicated by the other when Dioscorus and Ephesus II excommunicated the EO Saint Patriarch Flavian either for teaching that Christ had two natures or for Flavian's excommunication of the monophysite Eutyches?

 ;D
Quote
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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2017, 02:06:17 PM »
Christ is God. So that means God hungered. God fasted. God cried. God healed the sick. God told parables. The Theotokos gave birth to God (talk about a total headtrip!), God suffered. God died. God rose from the dead.
Ironically, I read this and thought "Sounds like Oriental Orthodoxy to the fullest. Not complex at all."

Quote
It's not "God suffered in his humanity" or "God gave sight to the blind by his divinity". That's nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures.
Then I read this and thought "Sounds like an indictment on Leo's Tome. Requires an equally "complex" response from OO, just like Fr Peter has done for years."

I read this and I thought, "Right on point!"

Quote
I just don't care much for the how many angels can dance on the head of a pin arguments.
Then I read this and thought "Leo of Rome, Flavian, Eutyches, Juvenal, Theodore of Mospuesta, Ibas the Iberian, Theodoret. Eusebius of Doryleum, Domonus of Antioch, Henotikon. Leontius of Byzantium, John Damasacus, Maximus the Confessor,Rakovsky, what else do I have to say? We didn't start the fire. It was always burning since the world's been turning. We didn't start the fire. No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it."

Then I read this and thought, "This guy's high".
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 02:06:56 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2017, 02:09:21 PM »
Then I read this and thought "Leo of Rome, Flavian, Eutyches, Juvenal, Theodore of Mospuesta, Ibas the Iberian, Theodoret. Eusebius of Doryleum, Domonus of Antioch, Henotikon. Leontius of Byzantium, John Damasacus, Maximus the Confessor, Rakovsky, what else do I have to say? We didn't start the fire. It was always burning since the world's been turning. We didn't start the fire. No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it."
Dear Remnkemi:
Since you mentioned me, I would like to ask a question about what you wrote. Was the first time that any leaders of our two communions were personally and directly excommunicated by the other when Dioscorus and Ephesus II excommunicated the EO Saint Patriarch Flavian either for teaching that Christ had two natures or for Flavian's excommunication of the monophysite Eutyches?

 ;D

I know, right?  :laugh:

You brought this on yourself, Rem.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2017, 02:14:21 PM »
Mussolini, Captain Vegetable, Elisabet Bathory, Biz Markee, Sgt Slaughter, Manichaeus, Genghis Khan, Paul McCartney, Abraham Lincoln, Yang Guifei, Gargamel, Simon Magus, Speed Racer, Spartacus, Mansa Musa, Ibas of Edessa, Tsatthogua, Steve Urkel, Tokugawa Ieyasu, Julian of Halicarnassus, Rakovsky
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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2017, 02:24:13 PM »
As a Chalcedonian, I would have no hesitation in recommending the Oriental Orthodox communion. They share the same faith, just word it a bit differently than we do.

Amen.

This is much appreciated
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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2017, 02:36:47 PM »
Mussolini, Captain Vegetable, Elisabet Bathory, Biz Markee, Sgt Slaughter, Manichaeus, Genghis Khan, Paul McCartney, Abraham Lincoln, Yang Guifei, Gargamel, Simon Magus, Speed Racer, Spartacus, Mansa Musa, Ibas of Edessa, Tsatthogua, Steve Urkel, Tokugawa Ieyasu, Julian of Halicarnassus, Rakovsky

Lol
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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2017, 02:50:31 PM »
Mussolini, Captain Vegetable, Elisabet Bathory, Biz Markee, Sgt Slaughter, Manichaeus, Genghis Khan, Paul McCartney, Abraham Lincoln, Yang Guifei, Gargamel, Simon Magus, Speed Racer, Spartacus, Mansa Musa, Ibas of Edessa, Tsatthogua, Steve Urkel, Tokugawa Ieyasu, Julian of Halicarnassus, Rakovsky

+1

Typhoid Mary, Gyptian, Rani Lakshmibai, Papa Smurf, Giacomo Casanova, Coco Chanel, A Guy I Know From Work, Muhammad Ali Pasha, Aspasia of Miletus, Mad King George, Roseanne Roseannadanna, Major Garland Briggs, Nayvadius DeMun Wilburn, Norman Manley, Mary Boykin Chesnut, Cicero, HAL-9000, Rusty Shackleford, The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan, Rakovsky
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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2017, 02:57:41 PM »
Mussolini, Captain Vegetable, Elisabet Bathory, Biz Markee, Sgt Slaughter, Manichaeus, Genghis Khan, Paul McCartney, Abraham Lincoln, Yang Guifei, Gargamel, Simon Magus, Speed Racer, Spartacus, Mansa Musa, Ibas of Edessa, Tsatthogua, Steve Urkel, Tokugawa Ieyasu, Julian of Halicarnassus, Rakovsky

+1

Typhoid Mary, Gyptian, Rani Lakshmibai, Papa Smurf, Giacomo Casanova, Coco Chanel, A Guy I Know From Work, Muhammad Ali Pasha, Aspasia of Miletus, Mad King George, Roseanne Roseannadanna, Major Garland Briggs, Nayvadius DeMun Wilburn, Norman Manley, Mary Boykin Chesnut, Cicero, HAL-9000, Rusty Shackleford, The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan, Rakovsky

Now here is another worthwhile thread idea. 
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Offline Remnkemi

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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2017, 03:49:07 PM »
Then I read this and thought "Leo of Rome, Flavian, Eutyches, Juvenal, Theodore of Mospuesta, Ibas the Iberian, Theodoret. Eusebius of Doryleum, Domonus of Antioch, Henotikon. Leontius of Byzantium, John Damasacus, Maximus the Confessor, Rakovsky, what else do I have to say? We didn't start the fire. It was always burning since the world's been turning. We didn't start the fire. No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it."
Dear Remnkemi:
Since you mentioned me, I would like to ask a question about what you wrote. Was the first time that any leaders of our two communions were personally and directly excommunicated by the other when Dioscorus and Ephesus II excommunicated the EO Saint Patriarch Flavian either for teaching that Christ had two natures or for Flavian's excommunication of the monophysite Eutyches?

 ;D

I know, right?  :laugh:

You brought this on yourself, Rem.
The point was not to list Chalcedonians who were excommunicated in any chronological order (many people on that list were not excommunicated at all). It was to point out people overcomplicated christology with concepts like "how many angels can dance on a christological pin". OO christology for the most part has refrained from complicated terminology and Aristotelian categories and maintained simple formulas like "Christ is one" to explain christology.  Some Chalcedonians insisted on elaborate philosophical terminology to explain christology and OO responded with more complicated terminology from St Severus and others.

Plus a little humor doesn't hurt even if it is historically inaccurate.

And for the record, I have no idea what your list means but it still sounds right (or at least I find myself singing it out loud)

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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2017, 03:56:05 PM »
Then I read this and thought "Leo of Rome, Flavian, Eutyches, Juvenal, Theodore of Mospuesta, Ibas the Iberian, Theodoret. Eusebius of Doryleum, Domonus of Antioch, Henotikon. Leontius of Byzantium, John Damasacus, Maximus the Confessor, Rakovsky, what else do I have to say? We didn't start the fire. It was always burning since the world's been turning. We didn't start the fire. No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it."
Dear Remnkemi:
Since you mentioned me, I would like to ask a question about what you wrote. Was the first time that any leaders of our two communions were personally and directly excommunicated by the other when Dioscorus and Ephesus II excommunicated the EO Saint Patriarch Flavian either for teaching that Christ had two natures or for Flavian's excommunication of the monophysite Eutyches?

 ;D

I know, right?  :laugh:

You brought this on yourself, Rem.
The point was not to list Chalcedonians who were excommunicated in any chronological order (many people on that list were not excommunicated at all). It was to point out people overcomplicated christology with concepts like "how many angels can dance on a christological pin". OO christology for the most part has refrained from complicated terminology and Aristotelian categories and maintained simple formulas like "Christ is one" to explain christology.  Some Chalcedonians insisted on elaborate philosophical terminology to explain christology and OO responded with more complicated terminology from St Severus and others.

Plus a little humor doesn't hurt even if it is historically inaccurate.

And for the record, I have no idea what your list means but it still sounds right (or at least I find myself singing it out loud)

I take it back, OO Rakovsky.  You two have fun!  :)
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Offline Remnkemi

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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2017, 05:13:44 PM »
Then I read this and thought "Leo of Rome, Flavian, Eutyches, Juvenal, Theodore of Mospuesta, Ibas the Iberian, Theodoret. Eusebius of Doryleum, Domonus of Antioch, Henotikon. Leontius of Byzantium, John Damasacus, Maximus the Confessor, Rakovsky, what else do I have to say? We didn't start the fire. It was always burning since the world's been turning. We didn't start the fire. No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it."
Dear Remnkemi:
Since you mentioned me, I would like to ask a question about what you wrote. Was the first time that any leaders of our two communions were personally and directly excommunicated by the other when Dioscorus and Ephesus II excommunicated the EO Saint Patriarch Flavian either for teaching that Christ had two natures or for Flavian's excommunication of the monophysite Eutyches?

 ;D

I know, right?  :laugh:

You brought this on yourself, Rem.
The point was not to list Chalcedonians who were excommunicated in any chronological order (many people on that list were not excommunicated at all). It was to point out people overcomplicated christology with concepts like "how many angels can dance on a christological pin". OO christology for the most part has refrained from complicated terminology and Aristotelian categories and maintained simple formulas like "Christ is one" to explain christology.  Some Chalcedonians insisted on elaborate philosophical terminology to explain christology and OO responded with more complicated terminology from St Severus and others.

Plus a little humor doesn't hurt even if it is historically inaccurate.

And for the record, I have no idea what your list means but it still sounds right (or at least I find myself singing it out loud)

I take it back, OO Rakovsky.  You two have fun!  :)
I prefer to be called "OO Dave".  :P

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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2017, 05:38:11 PM »
Then I read this and thought "Leo of Rome, Flavian, Eutyches, Juvenal, Theodore of Mospuesta, Ibas the Iberian, Theodoret. Eusebius of Doryleum, Domonus of Antioch, Henotikon. Leontius of Byzantium, John Damasacus, Maximus the Confessor, Rakovsky, what else do I have to say? We didn't start the fire. It was always burning since the world's been turning. We didn't start the fire. No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it."
Dear Remnkemi:
Since you mentioned me, I would like to ask a question about what you wrote. Was the first time that any leaders of our two communions were personally and directly excommunicated by the other when Dioscorus and Ephesus II excommunicated the EO Saint Patriarch Flavian either for teaching that Christ had two natures or for Flavian's excommunication of the monophysite Eutyches?

 ;D

I know, right?  :laugh:

You brought this on yourself, Rem.
The point was not to list Chalcedonians who were excommunicated in any chronological order (many people on that list were not excommunicated at all). It was to point out people overcomplicated christology with concepts like "how many angels can dance on a christological pin". OO christology for the most part has refrained from complicated terminology and Aristotelian categories and maintained simple formulas like "Christ is one" to explain christology.  Some Chalcedonians insisted on elaborate philosophical terminology to explain christology and OO responded with more complicated terminology from St Severus and others.

Plus a little humor doesn't hurt even if it is historically inaccurate.

And for the record, I have no idea what your list means but it still sounds right (or at least I find myself singing it out loud)

I take it back, OO Rakovsky.  You two have fun!  :)
I prefer to be called "OO Dave".  :P

As in, this Dave?
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Considering the Oriental Orthodox Church again?
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2017, 09:39:17 PM »
If Fr Peter is able to navigate those rough waters for the benefit of others
From the EO-OO Christology war of 2011, I don't recall this being the case.

I remember something about Jesus's Divine Knowledge being like a cloud server and Jesus's human brain being a lookup list.

I wasn't here in 2011, but I'm fairly sure I don't trust your version.

JL, I am sure that we are in agreement.

As far as I can presently see the main difference between Themistius and the Orthodox view is that where the Orthodox would allow for the natural limitation of human knowledge 'en theoria', they did not allow that Christ lacked knowledge in the hypostatic union.

On the contrary, it would seem. Themistius wanted to say that Christ was lacking knowledge within the hypostatic union, and therefore that the divine knowledge was not allowed to permeate and impenetrate the human mind and nous (in a way which is unknown to us).

I have St Theodosius' work, Ad Theodoram, in front of me and I am engaged in translating it into English. It is all about those the Agnoetae and I believe it will be useful.

[Having given continuing thought to this subject, I think that I am presently attached to the undoubtedly poor analogy of an old PC connected to a very modern server. All of the data on the server is available to the PC through the union that has been made with the server and the PC, in a sense, expresses the data on the server within the limitations of its own construction. It is not able to store locally all the data on the server, but it has a real and immediate access to all the data on the server and is, in a poor sense, both an extension of the server, and a distinct instance of a PC rather than a server.

It could perhaps be imagined that the server has Admin access and control over the PC, but this does not mean that the PC is not truly a PC rather than a server. It does not mean that all the limitations of the PC are overcome, but it does mean that the PC is protected perhaps by the anti-virus software on the server. It does mean that the PC has access to other networks through the server. It does mean that the server can run its own local programmes on the PC hard-drive. The PC never stops being a PC. But the union with the server extends and enhances the functionality and data which the unconnected PC might have had.

It might be said that another PC can also access some external data when a memory stick is plugged in (like the grace working in a saint), but this particular real PC is always connected to the server and all the data of the server is immediately and directly available to it. This does not mean that the countless Tb of data are all in the PC's RAM, indeed that would not be possible because of the structure of the PC's memory, but everything it ever needs to access in RAM, everything it could ever possibly need to access, and all the Tb of data it will never access are only a memory refresh away.

Now Themistius would seem to say, this PC has only got 512Mb of RAM and a 10 Gb hard drive. It is impossible for it to ever contain more than this amount of data. And Theodosius would answer, yes, on its own this is an old model PC and it can only hold that much data - BUT it is not on its own. It is connected to this server that has thousands of Tb of data which is all available to this little PC just as much as the local data it stores. When the data is in RAM it all looks the same and the PC operates exactly the same, but it has a union with the server which changes everything.]

Ref: Nicholas. If you are not willing to submit to the Fathers then how will you become Orthodox? What you are describing is essentially Protestantism. And we are not talking about a few Fathers. We are talking about St Cyril, St Severus, and both Fathers in the OO and EO traditions, and even the EO councils. This is not a theological opinion you can run with. It is a position which has been condemned.
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Offline Remnkemi

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« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 09:13:43 AM by Remnkemi »

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