Author Topic: How to combat New Atheism  (Read 3473 times)

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Offline Jackson02

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How to combat New Atheism
« on: July 08, 2017, 12:24:34 AM »
New Atheism is on the rise in America and is a threat to Orthodoxy. New Atheism differs from regular Atheism because of its hatred of religion. Richard Dawkins a New Atheist has told his followers to "Mock them, ridicule them, in public" what are some good ways to combat this spreading movement.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2017, 12:34:44 AM »
Ignore it.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2017, 12:36:58 AM »
And seriously, from what I've seen here and some other Christian circles, if you don't want it to spread, then stop joining it yourself. Good gravy, young people!
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2017, 06:09:52 AM »
^ Some ((christians)) need to be mocked.^
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Alkis

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2017, 09:04:44 AM »
There are those Protestants from one side that go against science with their point of view and from another side those atheists that behave in a so ridiculous way... Just pray for our enlightment by God!
For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

Offline Agabus

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2017, 10:10:11 AM »
what are some good ways to combat this spreading movement.

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Offline Sharbel

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2017, 10:34:42 AM »
On one hand, its adherents can be ignored with a good degree of safety, for so much hate will end up eating itself.  In my brief opinion, it's primarily based on scientism, which is very easy to undermine, but requires a good knowledge of science on the part of the one undermining it. 

On the other hand, the issue is how to inoculate the youth about it, which I believe is best accomplished by cultivating awe at the Holy Mysteries and by training children in the apophatic way from at least middle school.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 10:34:57 AM by Sharbel »
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2017, 11:41:26 AM »
New Atheism is on the rise in America and is a threat to Orthodoxy. New Atheism differs from regular Atheism because of its hatred of religion. Richard Dawkins a New Atheist has told his followers to "Mock them, ridicule them, in public" what are some good ways to combat this spreading movement.

Nothing is a threat to Orthodoxy.

But to answer your question, Matthew 5 is a good and difficult start...
Quote
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your [an]coat also. 41 Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2017, 12:49:01 PM »
I recommend a swift kick in the shins.
God bless!

Offline Jackson02

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2017, 03:06:20 PM »
New Atheism is on the rise in America and is a threat to Orthodoxy. New Atheism differs from regular Atheism because of its hatred of religion. Richard Dawkins a New Atheist has told his followers to "Mock them, ridicule them, in public" what are some good ways to combat this spreading movement.

Nothing is a threat to Orthodoxy.

But to answer your question, Matthew 5 is a good and difficult start...
Quote
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your [an]coat also. 41 Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


That is true.

Offline William T

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2017, 04:43:20 PM »
New Atheism is on the rise in America?  I thought that was an early 00 fad.  I don't know if I'm just being an old man, I kind of miss it.  As bad as it was, I think it at least got people interested in logic and arguments and history, and at least strived to be dispassionate.  I'm used to seeing younger millennials being more possessed by a kind of spiritual fanaticism.

Anyway an honest look at history and philosophy can sweep it under the rug pretty quick.  Just start with normal refutations of positivism and scientism and work from there.  An atheist can argue even from those points, as well as arguing against "pop" interpretations of history and giving a reasoned defense of what tradition means.

I can't think of any great 101 book off hand that deals specifically with that aspect of philosophy from a completely secular angle.  You may want to read David Bentley Harts "Atheist Delusions" though.  But honestly, you can probably just read the "Stanford Philosophy" encyclopedia and get the gist of some fundamental errors being made.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2017, 04:50:06 PM »
New Atheism is on the rise in America?  I thought that was an early 00 fad.  I don't know if I'm just being an old man, I kind of miss it.  As bad as it was, I think it at least got people interested in logic and arguments and history, and at least strived to be dispassionate.  I'm used to seeing younger millennials being more possessed by a kind of spiritual fanaticism.

Anyway an honest look at history and philosophy can sweep it under the rug pretty quick.  Just start with normal refutations of positivism and scientism and work from there.  An atheist can argue even from those points, as well as arguing against "pop" interpretations of history and giving a reasoned defense of what tradition means.

I can't think of any great 101 book off hand that deals specifically with that aspect of philosophy from a completely secular angle.  You may want to read David Bentley Harts "Atheist Delusions" though.  But honestly, you can probably just read the "Stanford Philosophy" encyclopedia and get the gist of some fundamental errors being made.

When you read the encyclopedia, what was the gist of their errors that you drew?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline William T

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2017, 05:06:33 PM »
New Atheism is on the rise in America?  I thought that was an early 00 fad.  I don't know if I'm just being an old man, I kind of miss it.  As bad as it was, I think it at least got people interested in logic and arguments and history, and at least strived to be dispassionate.  I'm used to seeing younger millennials being more possessed by a kind of spiritual fanaticism.

Anyway an honest look at history and philosophy can sweep it under the rug pretty quick.  Just start with normal refutations of positivism and scientism and work from there.  An atheist can argue even from those points, as well as arguing against "pop" interpretations of history and giving a reasoned defense of what tradition means.

I can't think of any great 101 book off hand that deals specifically with that aspect of philosophy from a completely secular angle.  You may want to read David Bentley Harts "Atheist Delusions" though.  But honestly, you can probably just read the "Stanford Philosophy" encyclopedia and get the gist of some fundamental errors being made.

When you read the encyclopedia, what was the gist of their errors that you drew?

This wasn't clear in my post, but I meant to imply I didn't read it and the issue could probably be looked up. 

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logical-empiricism/#Imp

after a skim it looks like I was right, I don't know maybe not.  I'm lazy, so it's up to the OP to look it up if he wants.

I really don't think anybody holds these views, or the kind of nihilistic views that can still be popular among teenagers working out their thoughts for the first time, or some pop culture books.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 05:12:20 PM by William T »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2017, 05:08:55 PM »
New Atheism is on the rise in America?  I thought that was an early 00 fad.  I don't know if I'm just being an old man, I kind of miss it.  As bad as it was, I think it at least got people interested in logic and arguments and history, and at least strived to be dispassionate.  I'm used to seeing younger millennials being more possessed by a kind of spiritual fanaticism.

Anyway an honest look at history and philosophy can sweep it under the rug pretty quick.  Just start with normal refutations of positivism and scientism and work from there.  An atheist can argue even from those points, as well as arguing against "pop" interpretations of history and giving a reasoned defense of what tradition means.

I can't think of any great 101 book off hand that deals specifically with that aspect of philosophy from a completely secular angle.  You may want to read David Bentley Harts "Atheist Delusions" though.  But honestly, you can probably just read the "Stanford Philosophy" encyclopedia and get the gist of some fundamental errors being made.

When you read the encyclopedia, what was the gist of their errors that you drew?

This wasn't clear in my post, but I meant to imply I didn't read it and the issue could probably be looked up. 

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logical-empiricism/#Imp

after a skim it looks like I was right, I don't know maybe not.  I'm lazy, so it's up to the OP to look it up if he wants.

I really don't think anybody holds these views, or the kind of nihilistic views that can still be popular among teenagers working out their thoughts for the first time, or in popular culture.

Mr. Hitchens and Dr. Dawkins are two non-teenagers that come to mind. Vicious and illogical both.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline William T

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2017, 05:11:59 PM »
New Atheism is on the rise in America?  I thought that was an early 00 fad.  I don't know if I'm just being an old man, I kind of miss it.  As bad as it was, I think it at least got people interested in logic and arguments and history, and at least strived to be dispassionate.  I'm used to seeing younger millennials being more possessed by a kind of spiritual fanaticism.

Anyway an honest look at history and philosophy can sweep it under the rug pretty quick.  Just start with normal refutations of positivism and scientism and work from there.  An atheist can argue even from those points, as well as arguing against "pop" interpretations of history and giving a reasoned defense of what tradition means.

I can't think of any great 101 book off hand that deals specifically with that aspect of philosophy from a completely secular angle.  You may want to read David Bentley Harts "Atheist Delusions" though.  But honestly, you can probably just read the "Stanford Philosophy" encyclopedia and get the gist of some fundamental errors being made.

When you read the encyclopedia, what was the gist of their errors that you drew?

This wasn't clear in my post, but I meant to imply I didn't read it and the issue could probably be looked up. 

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logical-empiricism/#Imp

after a skim it looks like I was right, I don't know maybe not.  I'm lazy, so it's up to the OP to look it up if he wants.

I really don't think anybody holds these views, or the kind of nihilistic views that can still be popular among teenagers working out their thoughts for the first time, or in popular culture.

Mr. Hitchens and Dr. Dawkins are two non-teenagers that come to mind. Vicious and illogical both.

Hence the popular culture addendum.  Ex: Dan Brown isn't a real Historian.  I like Hitchens, but he is a journalist and Dawkins is a science popularizer and biologist.  I think all that counts as a philosopher is (I forgot his name who works at Tufts university, and I'm too lazy to search).  In todays age, I think Jerry Coyne might be one of the few  philosophers representatives left of that position.  Either way it's fringe
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 05:12:59 PM by William T »

Offline Hinterlander

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2017, 05:32:22 PM »
I think you should know why they are wrong. I've read a few books, like DBH's Athiest Delusions, that helped debunk some of the shallow versions of history that New Athiests trot out in their attacks of religion.

Offline beebert

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2017, 05:32:58 PM »
New Atheism is on the rise in America?  I thought that was an early 00 fad.  I don't know if I'm just being an old man, I kind of miss it.  As bad as it was, I think it at least got people interested in logic and arguments and history, and at least strived to be dispassionate.  I'm used to seeing younger millennials being more possessed by a kind of spiritual fanaticism.

Anyway an honest look at history and philosophy can sweep it under the rug pretty quick.  Just start with normal refutations of positivism and scientism and work from there.  An atheist can argue even from those points, as well as arguing against "pop" interpretations of history and giving a reasoned defense of what tradition means.

I can't think of any great 101 book off hand that deals specifically with that aspect of philosophy from a completely secular angle.  You may want to read David Bentley Harts "Atheist Delusions" though.  But honestly, you can probably just read the "Stanford Philosophy" encyclopedia and get the gist of some fundamental errors being made.

When you read the encyclopedia, what was the gist of their errors that you drew?

This wasn't clear in my post, but I meant to imply I didn't read it and the issue could probably be looked up. 

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logical-empiricism/#Imp

after a skim it looks like I was right, I don't know maybe not.  I'm lazy, so it's up to the OP to look it up if he wants.

I really don't think anybody holds these views, or the kind of nihilistic views that can still be popular among teenagers working out their thoughts for the first time, or in popular culture.

Mr. Hitchens and Dr. Dawkins are two non-teenagers that come to mind. Vicious and illogical both.
Both of them are wrong yes. When things get deep, their thought ends. Dawkins is also a fundamentalist, so he behaves in the same ways as those he attacks. I am much more sympathetic towards Hitchens though. I believe he was correct many times about the cruelty of fundamentalists, and it was mainly those he was going against(it was the only type of christianity he knew of I believe). That doesn't mean he was right in the grand picture. But as Simone Weil said: "Religion in so far as it is a source of consolation is a hindrance to true faith: in this sense atheism is a purification. I have to be atheistic with the part of myself which is not made for God. Among those men in whom the supernatural part has not been awakened, the atheists are right and the believers wrong."
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2017, 05:42:28 PM »
New Atheism is on the rise in America?  I thought that was an early 00 fad.  I don't know if I'm just being an old man, I kind of miss it.  As bad as it was, I think it at least got people interested in logic and arguments and history, and at least strived to be dispassionate.  I'm used to seeing younger millennials being more possessed by a kind of spiritual fanaticism.

Anyway an honest look at history and philosophy can sweep it under the rug pretty quick.  Just start with normal refutations of positivism and scientism and work from there.  An atheist can argue even from those points, as well as arguing against "pop" interpretations of history and giving a reasoned defense of what tradition means.

I can't think of any great 101 book off hand that deals specifically with that aspect of philosophy from a completely secular angle.  You may want to read David Bentley Harts "Atheist Delusions" though.  But honestly, you can probably just read the "Stanford Philosophy" encyclopedia and get the gist of some fundamental errors being made.

When you read the encyclopedia, what was the gist of their errors that you drew?

This wasn't clear in my post, but I meant to imply I didn't read it and the issue could probably be looked up. 

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logical-empiricism/#Imp

after a skim it looks like I was right, I don't know maybe not.  I'm lazy, so it's up to the OP to look it up if he wants.

I really don't think anybody holds these views, or the kind of nihilistic views that can still be popular among teenagers working out their thoughts for the first time, or in popular culture.

Mr. Hitchens and Dr. Dawkins are two non-teenagers that come to mind. Vicious and illogical both.

Hence the popular culture addendum.  Ex: Dan Brown isn't a real Historian.  I like Hitchens, but he is a journalist and Dawkins is a science popularizer and biologist.  I think all that counts as a philosopher is (I forgot his name who works at Tufts university, and I'm too lazy to search).  In todays age, I think Jerry Coyne might be one of the few  philosophers representatives left of that position.  Either way it's fringe

Making Neo-atheists to science or theology what Brown is to history -- you've won a lot of points with me. :)
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline William T

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2017, 05:58:27 PM »
New Atheism is on the rise in America?  I thought that was an early 00 fad.  I don't know if I'm just being an old man, I kind of miss it.  As bad as it was, I think it at least got people interested in logic and arguments and history, and at least strived to be dispassionate.  I'm used to seeing younger millennials being more possessed by a kind of spiritual fanaticism.

Anyway an honest look at history and philosophy can sweep it under the rug pretty quick.  Just start with normal refutations of positivism and scientism and work from there.  An atheist can argue even from those points, as well as arguing against "pop" interpretations of history and giving a reasoned defense of what tradition means.

I can't think of any great 101 book off hand that deals specifically with that aspect of philosophy from a completely secular angle.  You may want to read David Bentley Harts "Atheist Delusions" though.  But honestly, you can probably just read the "Stanford Philosophy" encyclopedia and get the gist of some fundamental errors being made.

When you read the encyclopedia, what was the gist of their errors that you drew?

This wasn't clear in my post, but I meant to imply I didn't read it and the issue could probably be looked up. 

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logical-empiricism/#Imp

after a skim it looks like I was right, I don't know maybe not.  I'm lazy, so it's up to the OP to look it up if he wants.

I really don't think anybody holds these views, or the kind of nihilistic views that can still be popular among teenagers working out their thoughts for the first time, or in popular culture.

Mr. Hitchens and Dr. Dawkins are two non-teenagers that come to mind. Vicious and illogical both.

So I was looking at a "who's who" list of New Atheists on the Wikipedia page and  looked at the list of "New Atheists"  by my count four might count as philosophers.  The majority of them are people who deconverted, political / cultural pundits, and scientists.  One of the people I counted was Steven Pinker.  I want to stress, I do not like this man and I was taught (around '07) that "evo psych" still had much to prove to be taken seriously.  Either way, whatever faults Pinker may have in History, Philosophy, and psychology they are pretty good with calling out the pseudo-science of a "constructivist"/behaviorist/"blank slate" nature that seems to be all the rage right now in pop culture.  As bad as he is, he is comparatively grounded and probably more intellectually honest.

So the old bad fads of the early 00's are still probably better than the old new bad fads of the 10's
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 06:06:09 PM by William T »

Offline Jetavan

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2017, 07:14:35 PM »
New Atheism is on the rise in America?  I thought that was an early 00 fad.  I don't know if I'm just being an old man, I kind of miss it.  As bad as it was, I think it at least got people interested in logic and arguments and history, and at least strived to be dispassionate.  I'm used to seeing younger millennials being more possessed by a kind of spiritual fanaticism.

Anyway an honest look at history and philosophy can sweep it under the rug pretty quick.  Just start with normal refutations of positivism and scientism and work from there.  An atheist can argue even from those points, as well as arguing against "pop" interpretations of history and giving a reasoned defense of what tradition means.

I can't think of any great 101 book off hand that deals specifically with that aspect of philosophy from a completely secular angle.  You may want to read David Bentley Harts "Atheist Delusions" though.  But honestly, you can probably just read the "Stanford Philosophy" encyclopedia and get the gist of some fundamental errors being made.

When you read the encyclopedia, what was the gist of their errors that you drew?

This wasn't clear in my post, but I meant to imply I didn't read it and the issue could probably be looked up. 

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logical-empiricism/#Imp

after a skim it looks like I was right, I don't know maybe not.  I'm lazy, so it's up to the OP to look it up if he wants.

I really don't think anybody holds these views, or the kind of nihilistic views that can still be popular among teenagers working out their thoughts for the first time, or in popular culture.

Mr. Hitchens and Dr. Dawkins are two non-teenagers that come to mind. Vicious and illogical both.
Both of them are wrong yes. When things get deep, their thought ends. Dawkins is also a fundamentalist, so he behaves in the same ways as those he attacks. I am much more sympathetic towards Hitchens though. I believe he was correct many times about the cruelty of fundamentalists, and it was mainly those he was going against(it was the only type of christianity he knew of I believe). That doesn't mean he was right in the grand picture. But as Simone Weil said: "Religion in so far as it is a source of consolation is a hindrance to true faith: in this sense atheism is a purification. I have to be atheistic with the part of myself which is not made for God. Among those men in whom the supernatural part has not been awakened, the atheists are right and the believers wrong."
Hitchens, you note, critiques mainly fundamentalism. Likewise, Dawkins critiques the idea of creator deity that posits such deity as a being/person alongside other beings/persons. Panentheism or apophatic theology he sees as limited to the philosophically astute within a religion: the average person on the street is going to think theistically-dualistically.
If you will, you can become all flame.
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Offline beebert

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2017, 07:31:53 PM »
New Atheism is on the rise in America?  I thought that was an early 00 fad.  I don't know if I'm just being an old man, I kind of miss it.  As bad as it was, I think it at least got people interested in logic and arguments and history, and at least strived to be dispassionate.  I'm used to seeing younger millennials being more possessed by a kind of spiritual fanaticism.

Anyway an honest look at history and philosophy can sweep it under the rug pretty quick.  Just start with normal refutations of positivism and scientism and work from there.  An atheist can argue even from those points, as well as arguing against "pop" interpretations of history and giving a reasoned defense of what tradition means.

I can't think of any great 101 book off hand that deals specifically with that aspect of philosophy from a completely secular angle.  You may want to read David Bentley Harts "Atheist Delusions" though.  But honestly, you can probably just read the "Stanford Philosophy" encyclopedia and get the gist of some fundamental errors being made.

When you read the encyclopedia, what was the gist of their errors that you drew?

This wasn't clear in my post, but I meant to imply I didn't read it and the issue could probably be looked up. 

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logical-empiricism/#Imp

after a skim it looks like I was right, I don't know maybe not.  I'm lazy, so it's up to the OP to look it up if he wants.

I really don't think anybody holds these views, or the kind of nihilistic views that can still be popular among teenagers working out their thoughts for the first time, or in popular culture.

Mr. Hitchens and Dr. Dawkins are two non-teenagers that come to mind. Vicious and illogical both.
Both of them are wrong yes. When things get deep, their thought ends. Dawkins is also a fundamentalist, so he behaves in the same ways as those he attacks. I am much more sympathetic towards Hitchens though. I believe he was correct many times about the cruelty of fundamentalists, and it was mainly those he was going against(it was the only type of christianity he knew of I believe). That doesn't mean he was right in the grand picture. But as Simone Weil said: "Religion in so far as it is a source of consolation is a hindrance to true faith: in this sense atheism is a purification. I have to be atheistic with the part of myself which is not made for God. Among those men in whom the supernatural part has not been awakened, the atheists are right and the believers wrong."
Hitchens, you note, critiques mainly fundamentalism. Likewise, Dawkins critiques the idea of creator deity that posits such deity as a being/person alongside other beings/persons. Panentheism or apophatic theology he sees as limited to the philosophically astute within a religion: the average person on the street is going to think theistically-dualistically.
Yes well that is Dawkins. I have never heard Hitchens even talk about panentheism and apophatic theology. He obviously doesn't understand things. I wouldn't rank Hitchens at such a low level. At least his social criticisms are often not totally out in the blue. He said many good things, despite his worried soul and the fact that he rejected christianity all together. Sometimes we don't know what is working in a soul, but at least in Hitchens, despite his blasphemies, seemed to have a sense of morality and justice. It seems like that was important to him. And that means something at least.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2017, 08:44:18 PM »
New Atheism is on the rise in America?  I thought that was an early 00 fad.  I don't know if I'm just being an old man, I kind of miss it.  As bad as it was, I think it at least got people interested in logic and arguments and history, and at least strived to be dispassionate.  I'm used to seeing younger millennials being more possessed by a kind of spiritual fanaticism.

Anyway an honest look at history and philosophy can sweep it under the rug pretty quick.  Just start with normal refutations of positivism and scientism and work from there.  An atheist can argue even from those points, as well as arguing against "pop" interpretations of history and giving a reasoned defense of what tradition means.

I can't think of any great 101 book off hand that deals specifically with that aspect of philosophy from a completely secular angle.  You may want to read David Bentley Harts "Atheist Delusions" though.  But honestly, you can probably just read the "Stanford Philosophy" encyclopedia and get the gist of some fundamental errors being made.

When you read the encyclopedia, what was the gist of their errors that you drew?

This wasn't clear in my post, but I meant to imply I didn't read it and the issue could probably be looked up. 

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logical-empiricism/#Imp

after a skim it looks like I was right, I don't know maybe not.  I'm lazy, so it's up to the OP to look it up if he wants.

I really don't think anybody holds these views, or the kind of nihilistic views that can still be popular among teenagers working out their thoughts for the first time, or in popular culture.

Mr. Hitchens and Dr. Dawkins are two non-teenagers that come to mind. Vicious and illogical both.
Both of them are wrong yes. When things get deep, their thought ends. Dawkins is also a fundamentalist, so he behaves in the same ways as those he attacks. I am much more sympathetic towards Hitchens though. I believe he was correct many times about the cruelty of fundamentalists, and it was mainly those he was going against(it was the only type of christianity he knew of I believe). That doesn't mean he was right in the grand picture. But as Simone Weil said: "Religion in so far as it is a source of consolation is a hindrance to true faith: in this sense atheism is a purification. I have to be atheistic with the part of myself which is not made for God. Among those men in whom the supernatural part has not been awakened, the atheists are right and the believers wrong."
Hitchens, you note, critiques mainly fundamentalism. Likewise, Dawkins critiques the idea of creator deity that posits such deity as a being/person alongside other beings/persons. Panentheism or apophatic theology he sees as limited to the philosophically astute within a religion: the average person on the street is going to think theistically-dualistically.
Yes well that is Dawkins. I have never heard Hitchens even talk about panentheism and apophatic theology. He obviously doesn't understand things. I wouldn't rank Hitchens at such a low level. At least his social criticisms are often not totally out in the blue. He said many good things, despite his worried soul and the fact that he rejected christianity all together. Sometimes we don't know what is working in a soul, but at least in Hitchens, despite his blasphemies, seemed to have a sense of moralitycontempt and justiceself-cleverness. It seems like that was important to him. And that means something at least.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline William T

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2017, 12:42:20 AM »
New Atheism is on the rise in America and is a threat to Orthodoxy. New Atheism differs from regular Atheism because of its hatred of religion. Richard Dawkins a New Atheist has told his followers to "Mock them, ridicule them, in public" what are some good ways to combat this spreading movement.



Honestly New Atheism may be a good springboard to get your feet wet in basic philosophy or classic theology.  It's even better for a classic Theist because you are on the "challenger" side, so use it as a challenge to whup yourself into intellectual shape.  In the end you don't really want to head for the hills looking for self affirmation when challenged, or do quick fix internet research to superficially address problems with pseudo knowledge.  Use the challenge of the new atheists as a long term "teach a man to fish" approach.   New Atheism really may not be a bad impetus for a young man to look at and develop his premises.  to Are you in college?  Do you have the luxury of signing up for a logic or philosophy course as an elective?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 12:49:17 AM by William T »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2017, 12:49:21 AM »
New Atheism is on the rise in America and is a threat to Orthodoxy. New Atheism differs from regular Atheism because of its hatred of religion. Richard Dawkins a New Atheist has told his followers to "Mock them, ridicule them, in public" what are some good ways to combat this spreading movement.



Honestly New Atheism may be a good springboard to get your feet wet in basic philosophy or classic theology.  It's even better for a classic Theist because you are on the "challenger" side, so use it as a challenge to whup yourself into intellectual shape.  In the end you don't really want to head for the hills looking for self affirmation when challenged, or do quick fix internet research to do superficially address problems.  Use the challenge of the new atheists as a long term "teach a man to fish" approach.  Are you in college?  Do you have the luxury of signing up for a logic or philosophy course as an elective?

So what are some examples of how a college logic or philosophy course will affirm a student in the faith?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline William T

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2017, 12:52:26 AM »
New Atheism is on the rise in America and is a threat to Orthodoxy. New Atheism differs from regular Atheism because of its hatred of religion. Richard Dawkins a New Atheist has told his followers to "Mock them, ridicule them, in public" what are some good ways to combat this spreading movement.



Honestly New Atheism may be a good springboard to get your feet wet in basic philosophy or classic theology.  It's even better for a classic Theist because you are on the "challenger" side, so use it as a challenge to whup yourself into intellectual shape.  In the end you don't really want to head for the hills looking for self affirmation when challenged, or do quick fix internet research to do superficially address problems.  Use the challenge of the new atheists as a long term "teach a man to fish" approach.  Are you in college?  Do you have the luxury of signing up for a logic or philosophy course as an elective?

So what are some examples of how a college logic or philosophy course will affirm a student in the faith?

If he thinks the new atheists are using philosophic questions or logical arguments a committed study in logic or philosophy would probably be helpful of developing some skill in.....logic and philosophy.

I guess it has the same affirmation of faith as giving someone a cookbook who wishes to be able to learn to cook food.  It keeps people focused and honest.

The OP is asking questions about new atheism, which I am assuming is meant to be addressed on a philosophic level.  If all he cares about is the mocking, well I guess the answer is do whatever it is anybody else does that mocks you.  It doesn't matter if it's a new atheist.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 12:56:02 AM by William T »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2017, 12:57:31 AM »
New Atheism is on the rise in America and is a threat to Orthodoxy. New Atheism differs from regular Atheism because of its hatred of religion. Richard Dawkins a New Atheist has told his followers to "Mock them, ridicule them, in public" what are some good ways to combat this spreading movement.



Honestly New Atheism may be a good springboard to get your feet wet in basic philosophy or classic theology.  It's even better for a classic Theist because you are on the "challenger" side, so use it as a challenge to whup yourself into intellectual shape.  In the end you don't really want to head for the hills looking for self affirmation when challenged, or do quick fix internet research to do superficially address problems.  Use the challenge of the new atheists as a long term "teach a man to fish" approach.  Are you in college?  Do you have the luxury of signing up for a logic or philosophy course as an elective?

So what are some examples of how a college logic or philosophy course will affirm a student in the faith?

If he thinks the new atheists are using philosophic questions or logical arguments a committed study in logic or philosophy would probably be helpful of developing some skill in.....logic and philosophy.

I guess it has the same affirmation of faith as giving someone a cookbook who wishes to be able to learn to cook food.  It keeps people focused and honest.

The OP is asking questions about new atheism, which I am assuming is meant to be addressed on a philosophic level.  If all he cares about is the mocking, well I guess the answer is do whatever it is anybody else does that mocks you.  It doesn't matter if it's a new atheist.

You heard it hear, folks. Combat atheism by cooking. Honestly, I'm fully in favor of this solution.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline William T

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2017, 01:01:57 AM »
New Atheism is on the rise in America and is a threat to Orthodoxy. New Atheism differs from regular Atheism because of its hatred of religion. Richard Dawkins a New Atheist has told his followers to "Mock them, ridicule them, in public" what are some good ways to combat this spreading movement.



Honestly New Atheism may be a good springboard to get your feet wet in basic philosophy or classic theology.  It's even better for a classic Theist because you are on the "challenger" side, so use it as a challenge to whup yourself into intellectual shape.  In the end you don't really want to head for the hills looking for self affirmation when challenged, or do quick fix internet research to do superficially address problems.  Use the challenge of the new atheists as a long term "teach a man to fish" approach.  Are you in college?  Do you have the luxury of signing up for a logic or philosophy course as an elective?

So what are some examples of how a college logic or philosophy course will affirm a student in the faith?

If he thinks the new atheists are using philosophic questions or logical arguments a committed study in logic or philosophy would probably be helpful of developing some skill in.....logic and philosophy.

I guess it has the same affirmation of faith as giving someone a cookbook who wishes to be able to learn to cook food.  It keeps people focused and honest.

The OP is asking questions about new atheism, which I am assuming is meant to be addressed on a philosophic level.  If all he cares about is the mocking, well I guess the answer is do whatever it is anybody else does that mocks you.  It doesn't matter if it's a new atheist.

You heard it hear, folks. Combat atheism by cooking. Honestly, I'm fully in favor of this solution.

OK, back to what is becoming the standard answer for when I get in any thread with Porter:

I think it is clear Porter has misread me.  If any third party needs clarification of what I've said let me know.  And yes I'm always in favor of cooking.  Or cook offs.  Maybe all philosophy disputes could be settled via chili cook off, though I highly doubt all "big name" philosophers culinary skills...except Hume, he may have been able to cook as he seemed to be one of the few philosophers who wasn't off his rocker.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 01:10:21 AM by William T »

Offline Luke

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2017, 01:04:43 AM »
New Atheism is on the rise in America and is a threat to Orthodoxy. New Atheism differs from regular Atheism because of its hatred of religion. Richard Dawkins a New Atheist has told his followers to "Mock them, ridicule them, in public" what are some good ways to combat this spreading movement.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2017, 01:15:55 AM »
New Atheism is on the rise in America and is a threat to Orthodoxy. New Atheism differs from regular Atheism because of its hatred of religion. Richard Dawkins a New Atheist has told his followers to "Mock them, ridicule them, in public" what are some good ways to combat this spreading movement.



Honestly New Atheism may be a good springboard to get your feet wet in basic philosophy or classic theology.  It's even better for a classic Theist because you are on the "challenger" side, so use it as a challenge to whup yourself into intellectual shape.  In the end you don't really want to head for the hills looking for self affirmation when challenged, or do quick fix internet research to do superficially address problems.  Use the challenge of the new atheists as a long term "teach a man to fish" approach.  Are you in college?  Do you have the luxury of signing up for a logic or philosophy course as an elective?

So what are some examples of how a college logic or philosophy course will affirm a student in the faith?

If he thinks the new atheists are using philosophic questions or logical arguments a committed study in logic or philosophy would probably be helpful of developing some skill in.....logic and philosophy.

I guess it has the same affirmation of faith as giving someone a cookbook who wishes to be able to learn to cook food.  It keeps people focused and honest.

The OP is asking questions about new atheism, which I am assuming is meant to be addressed on a philosophic level.  If all he cares about is the mocking, well I guess the answer is do whatever it is anybody else does that mocks you.  It doesn't matter if it's a new atheist.

You heard it hear, folks. Combat atheism by cooking. Honestly, I'm fully in favor of this solution.

OK, back to what is becoming the standard answer for when I get in any thread with Porter:

I think it is clear Porter has misread me.  If any third party needs clarification of what I've said let me know.  And yes I'm always in favor of cooking.  Or cook offs.  Maybe all philosophy disputes could be settled via chili cook off, though I highly doubt all "big name" philosophers culinary skills...except Hume, he may have been able to cook as he seemed to be one of the few philosophers who wasn't off his rocker.

And now we've turned a perfectly good cooking topic into a defense of that stupid little devil, David Hume.

Seriously, I think you brought up a very good point, whether or not it was inadvertent. Gardening, cooking, and nurturing children are all splendid ways to avoid obsessions such as New Atheism.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline William T

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2017, 01:26:27 AM »
New Atheism is on the rise in America and is a threat to Orthodoxy. New Atheism differs from regular Atheism because of its hatred of religion. Richard Dawkins a New Atheist has told his followers to "Mock them, ridicule them, in public" what are some good ways to combat this spreading movement.



Honestly New Atheism may be a good springboard to get your feet wet in basic philosophy or classic theology.  It's even better for a classic Theist because you are on the "challenger" side, so use it as a challenge to whup yourself into intellectual shape.  In the end you don't really want to head for the hills looking for self affirmation when challenged, or do quick fix internet research to do superficially address problems.  Use the challenge of the new atheists as a long term "teach a man to fish" approach.  Are you in college?  Do you have the luxury of signing up for a logic or philosophy course as an elective?

So what are some examples of how a college logic or philosophy course will affirm a student in the faith?

If he thinks the new atheists are using philosophic questions or logical arguments a committed study in logic or philosophy would probably be helpful of developing some skill in.....logic and philosophy.

I guess it has the same affirmation of faith as giving someone a cookbook who wishes to be able to learn to cook food.  It keeps people focused and honest.

The OP is asking questions about new atheism, which I am assuming is meant to be addressed on a philosophic level.  If all he cares about is the mocking, well I guess the answer is do whatever it is anybody else does that mocks you.  It doesn't matter if it's a new atheist.

You heard it hear, folks. Combat atheism by cooking. Honestly, I'm fully in favor of this solution.

OK, back to what is becoming the standard answer for when I get in any thread with Porter:

I think it is clear Porter has misread me.  If any third party needs clarification of what I've said let me know.  And yes I'm always in favor of cooking.  Or cook offs.  Maybe all philosophy disputes could be settled via chili cook off, though I highly doubt all "big name" philosophers culinary skills...except Hume, he may have been able to cook as he seemed to be one of the few philosophers who wasn't off his rocker.

And now we've turned a perfectly good cooking topic into a defense of that stupid little devil, David Hume.

Seriously, I think you brought up a very good point, whether or not it was inadvertent. Gardening, cooking, and nurturing children are all splendid ways to avoid obsessions such as New Atheism.

I'm not saying you have to like Hume.  But can you picture any other major philosopher since Descartes on cooking?  I can't.  I can picture many of them having really eccentric and spartan diets or overly refined tastes, but it's hard to picture most of them actually cooking something worth eating.  I'm just saying if one of them was capable of cooking it would have been Hume.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 01:27:35 AM by William T »

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2017, 01:30:17 AM »
Terry Eagleton's approach is good. It's fine to criticize religion, but it's also good to give concessions to it where it earns it. Furthermore, New Atheists tend to look at religion in one broad brush, and not every religion is the same monster. Lastly, I think the argument from nature, evolution, or organicism, that religion exists for a reason, biology put it there for a reason, that much is something atheists should be able to agree with. And they need to be warned of the unintended consequences of removing something which has such an influence and functions in such an important way as religion. I have yet to have an answer as to what they'd replace religion with. And just for the record, Marxism and/or higher scientific enlightenment and rationality are not sufficient answers.
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2017, 01:37:31 AM »
Terry Eagleton's approach is good. It's fine to criticize religion, but it's also good to give concessions to it where it earns it. Furthermore, New Atheists tend to look at religion in one broad brush, and not every religion is the same monster. Lastly, I think the argument from nature, evolution, or organicism, that religion exists for a reason, biology put it there for a reason, that much is something atheists should be able to agree with. And they need to be warned of the unintended consequences of removing something which has such an influence and functions in such an important way as religion. I have yet to have an answer as to what they'd replace religion with. And just for the record, Marxism and/or higher scientific enlightenment and rationality are not sufficient answers.

Some very perceptive thoughts, I think. However, bear in mind materialist humanists have never had much compunction about rummaging in the unconscious of human beings, or their social makeup, or even their physical. Contempt for fellowman and emulation of God has been the modus operandi for a few centuries. Great cruelty that history won't soon forget.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 01:38:04 AM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Jackson02

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2017, 01:50:06 AM »
Houston Smith Wrote a book I think called "Why Religion Matters" In it he says " I'm not against science, i'm against scientism". This is a quote with need to go mainstream in this generation.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 01:50:30 AM by Jackson02 »

Offline FinnJames

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2017, 03:49:52 AM »
New Atheism is on the rise in America?  I thought that was an early 00 fad.  I don't know if I'm just being an old man, I kind of miss it.  As bad as it was, I think it at least got people interested in logic and arguments and history, and at least strived to be dispassionate.  I'm used to seeing younger millennials being more possessed by a kind of spiritual fanaticism.

Anyway an honest look at history and philosophy can sweep it under the rug pretty quick.  Just start with normal refutations of positivism and scientism and work from there.  An atheist can argue even from those points, as well as arguing against "pop" interpretations of history and giving a reasoned defense of what tradition means.

I can't think of any great 101 book off hand that deals specifically with that aspect of philosophy from a completely secular angle.  You may want to read David Bentley Harts "Atheist Delusions" though.  But honestly, you can probably just read the "Stanford Philosophy" encyclopedia and get the gist of some fundamental errors being made.

When you read the encyclopedia, what was the gist of their errors that you drew?

This wasn't clear in my post, but I meant to imply I didn't read it and the issue could probably be looked up. 

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logical-empiricism/#Imp

after a skim it looks like I was right, I don't know maybe not.  I'm lazy, so it's up to the OP to look it up if he wants.

I really don't think anybody holds these views, or the kind of nihilistic views that can still be popular among teenagers working out their thoughts for the first time, or in popular culture.

Mr. Hitchens and Dr. Dawkins are two non-teenagers that come to mind. Vicious and illogical both.

When New Atheism was a hot topic I read Hitchens' God is not great and Dawkins' The God delusion and watched a few of their YouTube videos. I'll grant you 'illogical', but 'vicious'? That seems like an unsupported value judgement on your part. That's not to say that you can't support it, only to ask you to do so here.

Offline augustin717

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2017, 12:17:54 PM »
As I see it Christianity 's main problem isn't anything akin to the criticism the New Atheists. Ring against it. You can reconcile many brands of Christianity with whatever scientific consensus there is.
I think philology and historical inquiry ( maybe some annex fields like religious anthropology,  compared religion or whatever) have been the most damaging to the historical claims most  Christian sects makes. 
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2017, 01:00:42 PM »
As I see it Christianity 's main problem isn't anything akin to the criticism the New Atheists. Ring against it. You can reconcile many brands of Christianity with whatever scientific consensus there is.
I think philology and historical inquiry ( maybe some annex fields like religious anthropology,  compared religion or whatever) have been the most damaging to the historical claims most  Christian sects makes.

This seemed true a hundred years ago, and the fundamentalist movement was launched largely against the higher criticism, etc. However, such scholarship had changed so much, and finally yielded to post-modernism, that I feel few folks are still impressed by such arguments, and those who still attack in that vein, like Dr. Aslan, seem retro.
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Offline augustin717

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2017, 01:10:01 PM »
I'm retro. It's almost the only arguments I take seriously. You can't exactly prove or disprove metaphysics. Bug it's more within our reach to disentangle the conflicting Nativity narratives in Matthew and Luke :-)
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2017, 01:14:14 PM »
I'm retro. It's almost the only arguments I take seriously. You can't exactly prove or disprove metaphysics. Bug it's more within our reach to disentangle the conflicting Nativity narratives in Matthew and Luke :-)

Except that what such scholarship claims changes constantly, badly contradicts itself, uses methodology from the late 1700s that can bear little scrutiny, is often anti-Semitic and classist, and just generally scummy and unimpressive to a serious layman nowadays. When it comes to progressivism, the rear view isn't a good look.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline michaelus

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2017, 05:02:00 PM »
Really, from my experience, many "New Atheists" are either foolish or just plain ignorant.
Most of them rely on crappy copy-paste articles from atheist facebook groups or something similar, not to mention their seemingly endless obsession with fallacious "gotcha" arguments like "well if the Roman Empire didn't convert then you wouldn't be a Christian haha beat that" or the Zeitgeist-type stuff like Christianity is a copypaste of Mithraism etc., not to mention the so-called "skeptic community" and so forth.
Thankfully, many of these New Atheists aren't really equipped for a debate, they act all smart at first but really once you confront them on the issues they don't have much to say.
"A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, 'You are mad; you are not like us.'" - St. Anthony The Great

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2017, 05:04:17 PM »
Really, from my experience, many "New Atheists" are either foolish or just plain ignorant.
Most of them rely on crappy copy-paste articles from atheist facebook groups or something similar, not to mention their seemingly endless obsession with fallacious "gotcha" arguments like "well if the Roman Empire didn't convert then you wouldn't be a Christian haha beat that" or the Zeitgeist-type stuff like Christianity is a copypaste of Mithraism etc., not to mention the so-called "skeptic community" and so forth.
Thankfully, many of these New Atheists aren't really equipped for a debate, they act all smart at first but really once you confront them on the issues they don't have much to say.

Bear in mind that most of them are young teenagers. A balanced sense of anything is lacking at this age, due to very low life experience.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2017, 01:17:56 PM »
I think all that counts as a philosopher is (I forgot his name who works at Tufts university, and I'm too lazy to search)

Daniel Dennett, who for my money is the most interesting of the half dozen most prominent people under that umbrella; though admittedly that bar isn't set too high. I bought his most recent book, From Bacteria to Bach and Back: The Evolution of Minds, which is a summation and refinement of his previous work over the decades, but it's still too early to tell if it's an improvement. At the very least he and David Hart Bentley are good foils for one another.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 01:19:02 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline William T

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2017, 01:44:37 PM »
I think all that counts as a philosopher is (I forgot his name who works at Tufts university, and I'm too lazy to search)

Daniel Dennett, who for my money is the most interesting of the half dozen most prominent people under that umbrella; though admittedly that bar isn't set too high. I bought his most recent book, From Bacteria to Bach and Back: The Evolution of Minds, which is a summation and refinement of his previous work over the decades, but it's still too early to tell if it's an improvement. At the very least he and David Hart Bentley are good foils for one another.

I actually like Hitchens, he has good prose, he's boozy, funny and he makes a wide variety of busy-bodies angry. He is a little Menckenesque.   Dawkins is a good science populizer.  I don't like Sam Harris or the mullet sporting Pinker that much, but they have showed some consistency in principle and thought when confronted by trendy lunacy.

I don't know much about Dennett but he probably is the most intellectually formidable of the group, being a professional philosopher.  So that makes sense.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 01:46:21 PM by William T »

Offline William T

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2017, 01:48:39 PM »
Really, from my experience, many "New Atheists" are either foolish or just plain ignorant.
Most of them rely on crappy copy-paste articles from atheist facebook groups or something similar, not to mention their seemingly endless obsession with fallacious "gotcha" arguments like "well if the Roman Empire didn't convert then you wouldn't be a Christian haha beat that" or the Zeitgeist-type stuff like Christianity is a copypaste of Mithraism etc., not to mention the so-called "skeptic community" and so forth.
Thankfully, many of these New Atheists aren't really equipped for a debate, they act all smart at first but really once you confront them on the issues they don't have much to say.

Bear in mind that most of them are young teenagers. A balanced sense of anything is lacking at this age, due to very low life experience.

I have a teenage bear in mind, and if anything it is making me lose balance.  But it may make me have a lower life expectancy.  So I agree with you on that bit.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2017, 01:57:32 PM »
My problem with Harris seems to stem from his naturalistic extremism. He sort of just assumes that people are naturally good, and naturally predisposed to think in the 'rationalistic' way he thinks. Which is untrue.

Dawkins acknowledges that he has a 'cultural Christian' or even 'liberal' value system that he thinks should replace religious value systems, and Hitchens acknowledged that religion isn't going anywhere, he attacked it for the fun of attacking it. Which, is Hitchens' whole shtick. Everyone who knew him or of him knew that's what he liked doing.

As for Dennett, he is the most bookish and hard rationalist of the New Atheist writers, anyway. However, I think he has an overconfidence in epistemology and an assumption of metaphysical naturalism and ethical naturalism that tends to define scientism and analytic philosophy quite broadly. I think the ethical naturalism particularly is a flaw in his thinking.

New Atheist laymen are of a few different types. One type is the 'I just don't like religion" type. They're just fixed on that, and they're not going to budge. They might or might not have a background in religion, they just don't like it. So whatever you say is pretty irrelevant. The other type is the "my religious experience was bad, ergo all religion is bad." type, which is way too similar to the previous type. Mostly former Muslims, Conservative Protestants, or Roman Catholics. Maybe some Hindus. The third type is the "I hate religion, but I love SJW politics" group, which sees religion as a force inhibiting leftist social and economic 'progress' in the world, this is characterized by people like Aron Ra, Matt Dillahunty, Richard Carrier, the Intersectional/Third Wave Feminists, Marxists and the Atheism Plus movement. The last type is the, "I hate religion, but I hate everything." which are the nihilists, the "intellectuals", and some anti-SJW atheists, like Thunderf00t, The Amazing Atheist, AtheismisUnstoppable, Stefan Molyneux, and anarcho-capitalists some of the #Gamergate types and others like that. The last type I think is the most snobbish of the different groups, because they basically don't like things on a personal whim. One day they might be pro-feminist, the next day they'll hate it for whatever silly reasons. I think they're just egoists, personally.

So, that's the way I see it.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 02:08:13 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline William T

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2017, 03:06:14 PM »
This is Hitchens giving a talk on free speech:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z2uzEM0ugY

If I remember correctly, what is interesting is that he is very influenced by the Catholic play "A Man for All Seasons".

Father Barron on why he loved Hitchens:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW8yBnpN48w

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: How to combat New Atheism
« Reply #45 on: July 15, 2017, 10:35:27 AM »
David Hart Bentley

Word order: try I do, fail but I sometimes.