Author Topic: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)  (Read 12725 times)

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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #495 on: September 19, 2017, 01:24:58 AM »
^Have you ever stepped foot in an Orthodox church?
Are you talking to me? if so no as the closest Old Calendarist church near me is in Texas.

You're making this too easy, it's not even fun.

I know I'm probably gonna regret responding but what are you talking about?

You have zero--Z, E, R, O--lived experience of Orthodoxy, and you're going to judge a nun's views and call her to repentance?  Get your own life in order.  The actual Orthodox can handle Sr Vassa.
So what? I've been studying and inquiring Orthodoxy for about a year now and have gained lots of knowledge about the faith. I have learned what the rules are and Sister Vassa has violated them. Thus, she should be stripped of her monastic title. You really think that if a person hasn't been inside an Orthodox Church that he/she is devoid of knowledge on all relating subject matters? if so sir I suggest you rethink your opinion. What you said was quite insulting to all inquirers to Eastern Orthodoxy.

Two things jump out to me:

1.  It makes a whole lot of difference in your life as an inquirer to continually visit and pray in an Orthodox Church, not just read about them and their beliefs.  You need to actively live it, and that requires being in the presence of a spiritual father who will periodically guide you.  There's no self-help and self-reading in Orthodoxy.

2.  Even if you are a practicing Orthodox Christian, the virtue of humility teaches us a "who am I" approach to judge.  I am not an archimandrite, I'm not a presbyter, I'm not a bishop, I have no judgment role.  Instead, I have a "what sins do I still struggle with" role right now.  And if you are responsible for someone else, you can think about them too.

All I see right now is a lot of conjecture for her most recent posts on forgiveness that seem to be taken out of context.  At least with homosexuality, the backlash on her particular views was disagreed with and handled.  Whether or not this made her more famous or more successful, I don't know, and frankly I don't care.  You can continue to criticize her other views, but to judge and say "she should be removed" is beyond our own personal roles as Orthodox Christians.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #496 on: September 19, 2017, 01:32:42 AM »
Basically she seems to imply that we are worthy, because if Christ has in fact done it for us, we must have been worthy.
You have misunderstood. The idea is not that we shouldn't contemplate our unworthiness. The idea is that we shouldn't check ourselves and say, "am I worthy this week? Let's see, I've gone to confession, fasted, tithed, donated to the children's fund, but oh I did gossip..." rather, we are assuredly unworthy, but Christ makes us worthy in his "yes" on the Cross. Ultimately through his action, despite the modern synergia fetish. This is what is said: "thank you...for making me worthy, though unworthy, to partake..."

You are one who ought to take that hokey be the bee crap to heart.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 01:33:47 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #497 on: September 19, 2017, 01:36:30 AM »
I'd rather have Be the Bee anyday anytime than some of the productions I saw some members of my church do.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #498 on: September 19, 2017, 02:26:59 AM »
Ultimately through his action, despite the modern synergia fetish.

A "fetish" that goes back to Saint Paul (1 Corinthians 3:9). And an indispensable part of Orthodox doctrine. Christ's action would have saved no one, if not for the free acceptance of that salvation by the people. We are not Calvinists who believe in irresistible grace.

Offline WPM

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #499 on: September 19, 2017, 08:57:19 AM »
That's how far away it is.
Learn meditation.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #500 on: September 19, 2017, 09:53:28 AM »
and that this is not yet another slip away from orthodoxy, but just an instance of poorly phrasing.
When poor phrasing multiplies, that can still have disastrous consequences. Just look at the "poor phrasing" of and since V2 in the Roman Catholic Church... also Sr. Vassa is a) highly educated and b) a native English speaker (although she now lives in Austria, she is American), so it seems more probable that she intentionally uses the words she uses, rather than because of bad wording skills...
This post made into my feed yesterday and today I had a chance to read it.  Indeed, it seems to be more than poor phrasing, but poor reasoning.  I'm afraid that she suffers from theologianitis, the malady that suffers theologians who get stuck in words and try to spin their way out of them.  :)
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #501 on: September 19, 2017, 10:10:11 AM »
we are assuredly unworthy, but Christ makes us worthy in his "yes" on the Cross. Ultimately through his action...This is what is said: "thank you...for making me worthy, though unworthy, to partake..."

+1
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Offline RobS

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #502 on: September 19, 2017, 11:21:47 AM »
I'd rather have Be the Bee anyday anytime than some of the productions I saw some members of my church do.
Ive never heard of this Be the Bee until now.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #503 on: September 19, 2017, 11:59:09 AM »
^Have you ever stepped foot in an Orthodox church?
Are you talking to me? if so no as the closest Old Calendarist church near me is in Texas.

You're making this too easy, it's not even fun.

I know I'm probably gonna regret responding but what are you talking about?

You have zero--Z, E, R, O--lived experience of Orthodoxy, and you're going to judge a nun's views and call her to repentance?  Get your own life in order.  The actual Orthodox can handle Sr Vassa.
So what? I've been studying and inquiring Orthodoxy for about a year now and have gained lots of knowledge about the faith.

Oh, how delighted I am for you.  Gold star!

Quote
I have learned what the rules are and Sister Vassa has violated them.

What rules?  And how?

Quote
Thus, she should be stripped of her monastic title.

Certainly you should have learned in your extensive year long inquiry into Orthodoxy that "monasticism" is not a title, it is a vowed life of repentance.  You don't really get stripped of repentance. 

Quote
You really think that if a person hasn't been inside an Orthodox Church that he/she is devoid of knowledge on all relating subject matters? if so sir I suggest you rethink your opinion. What you said was quite insulting to all inquirers to Eastern Orthodoxy.

I think if you haven't actually entered an Orthodox church building and participated in some way in the common life of the people of God, then yeah, whatever book knowledge you have about the faith is severely lacking.  If anyone is insulting all inquirers to Eastern Orthodoxy, it's you.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #504 on: September 19, 2017, 12:07:23 PM »
Basically she seems to imply that we are worthy, because if Christ has in fact done it for us, we must have been worthy.
You have misunderstood. The idea is not that we shouldn't contemplate our unworthiness. The idea is that we shouldn't check ourselves and say, "am I worthy this week? Let's see, I've gone to confession, fasted, tithed, donated to the children's fund, but oh I did gossip..." rather, we are assuredly unworthy, but Christ makes us worthy in his "yes" on the Cross. Ultimately through his action, despite the modern synergia fetish. This is what is said: "thank you...for making me worthy, though unworthy, to partake..."

+1
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline orthoreader

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #505 on: September 19, 2017, 12:48:11 PM »
Ultimately through his action, despite the modern synergia fetish.

A "fetish" that goes back to Saint Paul (1 Corinthians 3:9). And an indispensable part of Orthodox doctrine. Christ's action would have saved no one, if not for the free acceptance of that salvation by the people. We are not Calvinists who believe in irresistible grace.

Maybe even further to Abraham's Covenant/promise, or faithful participation gr. (Logizomai)
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 12:48:41 PM by orthoreader »

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #506 on: September 19, 2017, 11:23:35 PM »
Christ's action would have saved no one, if not for the free acceptance of that salvation by the people. We are not Calvinists who believe in irresistible grace.
No Calvinism necessary. God gave you the will, sensibility, intuition, deliberative faculties, etc. that you use, he is ultimately the author of all good things including your conversion, etc. Synergia and freedom traditionally understood do not negate this. But the modern "synergia" (voluntarism) fetish of absolute freedom and absolute moral responsibility on the part of finite creatures (lol?) distorts this. Calvinism buys into this fetishized definition of freedom but take it in the negative; and they take the fetishized responsibility, in the positive, it's how they justify the eternal condemnation of sinners.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 11:27:35 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #507 on: September 20, 2017, 03:30:00 AM »
he is ultimately the author of all good things including your conversion
No, the conversion is a synergeia, a working-together of divine grace and of human will. Our will is created by God, but He has given us the possibility to exercise it in one way or the other.

That doesn't mean absolute freedom. In fact, the Fathers teach significant limits on freedom, such as the inevitable link between pleasure and pain. But concerning grace, we have free will to accept or to reject it.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #508 on: September 21, 2017, 08:01:16 AM »
But the will is not a blank slate that shows one thing or another. Its free inclination like all things is toward God. A will embroiled in sin is not free. And that's not Calvin, that's Saint Maximus.
Quote
Don John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop
- GK Chesteron, "Lepanto"

Offline RobS

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #509 on: September 21, 2017, 10:09:16 AM »
Weird coincidence, but I came across this bit from Zizek's book Absolute Recoil:

"This is why radical acts of freedom are possible only under the condition of predestination: in predestination, we know we are predestined, but we don’t know how we are predestined, i.e., which of our choices is predetermined, and this terrifying situation in which we have to decide what to do, knowing that our decision is decided in advance, is perhaps the only case of real freedom, of the unbearable burden of a really free choice—we know that what we will do is predestined, but we still have to take a risk and subjectively choose what is predestined."
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #510 on: September 21, 2017, 11:00:51 AM »
But the will is not a blank slate that shows one thing or another. Its free inclination like all things is toward God. A will embroiled in sin is not free. And that's not Calvin, that's Saint Maximus.

I've always understood human free will to be inclined, but not determined, towards sin. Nevertheless, it is not totally depraved. It still has the choice on its very own to received God's grace and participate with the divine energies. The human being might be indulging in sin and therefore a slave to it, but it is not deprived of its agency and capacity to accept the ever present grace of God.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #511 on: September 21, 2017, 03:01:18 PM »
Weird coincidence, but I came across this bit from Zizek's book Absolute Recoil:

"This is why radical acts of freedom are possible only under the condition of predestination: in predestination, we know we are predestined, but we don’t know how we are predestined, i.e., which of our choices is predetermined, and this terrifying situation in which we have to decide what to do, knowing that our decision is decided in advance, is perhaps the only case of real freedom, of the unbearable burden of a really free choice—we know that what we will do is predestined, but we still have to take a risk and subjectively choose what is predestined."

He should get a doctorate for that right thar. That's tooth-crackingly painful tomfoolery.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #512 on: September 21, 2017, 03:01:53 PM »
But the will is not a blank slate that shows one thing or another. Its free inclination like all things is toward God. A will embroiled in sin is not free. And that's not Calvin, that's Saint Maximus.

I've always understood human free will to be inclined, but not determined, towards sin. Nevertheless, it is not totally depraved. It still has the choice on its very own to received God's grace and participate with the divine energies. The human being might be indulging in sin and therefore a slave to it, but it is not deprived of its agency and capacity to accept the ever present grace of God.

The human being is also strongly inclined toward God its Father.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #513 on: September 21, 2017, 07:27:11 PM »
Weird coincidence, but I came across this bit from Zizek's book Absolute Recoil:

"This is why radical acts of freedom are possible only under the condition of predestination: in predestination, we know we are predestined, but we don’t know how we are predestined, i.e., which of our choices is predetermined, and this terrifying situation in which we have to decide what to do, knowing that our decision is decided in advance, is perhaps the only case of real freedom, of the unbearable burden of a really free choice—we know that what we will do is predestined, but we still have to take a risk and subjectively choose what is predestined."

I wouldn't want to live in a world where that was true or worship a deity who set things up that way.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #514 on: September 21, 2017, 07:32:15 PM »
But the will is not a blank slate that shows one thing or another. Its free inclination like all things is toward God. A will embroiled in sin is not free. And that's not Calvin, that's Saint Maximus.

I've always understood human free will to be inclined, but not determined, towards sin. Nevertheless, it is not totally depraved. It still has the choice on its very own to received God's grace and participate with the divine energies. The human being might be indulging in sin and therefore a slave to it, but it is not deprived of its agency and capacity to accept the ever present grace of God.

The human being is also strongly inclined toward God its Father.

I'm torn on this point. If such is as you say, then why has most of the world throughout human history turned from God? I think you're overrating humanity a little bit.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #515 on: September 21, 2017, 07:56:37 PM »
But the will is not a blank slate that shows one thing or another. Its free inclination like all things is toward God. A will embroiled in sin is not free. And that's not Calvin, that's Saint Maximus.

I've always understood human free will to be inclined, but not determined, towards sin. Nevertheless, it is not totally depraved. It still has the choice on its very own to received God's grace and participate with the divine energies. The human being might be indulging in sin and therefore a slave to it, but it is not deprived of its agency and capacity to accept the ever present grace of God.

The human being is also strongly inclined toward God its Father.

I'm torn on this point. If such is as you say, then why has most of the world throughout human history turned from God? I think you're overrating humanity a little bit.

Something tells me you would like Thomas Hobbes.

But anyways, I would agree to a certain extent - but even though we have irrational inclinations towards sin, and for the most part (unless you're as flippin awesome as the Theotokos...or Christ Himself), we are all gonna sin. Nevertheless, we all have to make the choice - whether we want to take the easy route, revert to our animalistic instincts and serve ourselves, while isolating ourselves from God and from other human beings, or choose God first and foremost in a selfless, but usually difficult manner - detaching yourself from Earthly things, as I've experienced, although wonderful, in that we have true love and see the whole value of every single one of our brothers and sisters, and we become thankful for everything we have, it is difficult. We all have the freedom to choose which path to follow - that of animals or that of God. We can choose to run downhill into the Outer Darkness, or we can walk uphill to the stars, to analogize from Patriarch Kirill.

In terms of inclination, I think we would all be lost without God - but because God loves His children, we all have the opportunity for eternal life and salvation.
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Keep shining, star!

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #516 on: September 22, 2017, 01:10:31 AM »
But the will is not a blank slate that shows one thing or another. Its free inclination like all things is toward God. A will embroiled in sin is not free. And that's not Calvin, that's Saint Maximus.

I've always understood human free will to be inclined, but not determined, towards sin. Nevertheless, it is not totally depraved. It still has the choice on its very own to received God's grace and participate with the divine energies. The human being might be indulging in sin and therefore a slave to it, but it is not deprived of its agency and capacity to accept the ever present grace of God.

The human being is also strongly inclined toward God its Father.

I'm torn on this point. If such is as you say, then why has most of the world throughout human history turned from God? I think you're overrating humanity a little bit.

Something tells me you would like Thomas Hobbes.

But anyways, I would agree to a certain extent - but even though we have irrational inclinations towards sin, and for the most part (unless you're as flippin awesome as the Theotokos...or Christ Himself), we are all gonna sin. Nevertheless, we all have to make the choice - whether we want to take the easy route, revert to our animalistic instincts and serve ourselves, while isolating ourselves from God and from other human beings, or choose God first and foremost in a selfless, but usually difficult manner - detaching yourself from Earthly things, as I've experienced, although wonderful, in that we have true love and see the whole value of every single one of our brothers and sisters, and we become thankful for everything we have, it is difficult. We all have the freedom to choose which path to follow - that of animals or that of God. We can choose to run downhill into the Outer Darkness, or we can walk uphill to the stars, to analogize from Patriarch Kirill.

In terms of inclination, I think we would all be lost without God - but because God loves His children, we all have the opportunity for eternal life and salvation.

I like Hobbes and I largely think he was right. That being said, I like Rousseau a lot as well, particularly his Second Discourse. Nevertheless, I think Rousseau erred in thinking that anything bad can be blamed on society. No, the blame lay in human nature itself, as Hobbes tended to think, albeit to an extreme that is perhaps too much for my tastes. In the end, it is strange how both men seemed to suggest that evil can be socially engineered away. But maybe that's because of some misreading on my part.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #517 on: September 22, 2017, 10:16:10 AM »
That the human will is perverted by the fall, I don't think anyone disputes. Our fallen will is not free- it can only be freed by grace. A will is free (paraphrasing Saint Maximus again) insofar as it wills according to its nature, and our nature, like all created natures, is inclined toward God. So it's not that God forces us to be good but that our will, freed from sin, inclines naturally to him. Free from sin, it could still make the wrong choice, as Adam did, but in doing so it becomes enveloped in passions and loses its freedom. This freedom was restored in Christ, and through him for all people (via baptism and the other mysteries), and through him is unassailable.
Quote
Don John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop
- GK Chesteron, "Lepanto"

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #518 on: September 22, 2017, 10:19:42 AM »
he is ultimately the author of all good things including your conversion
Our will is created by God, but He has given us the possibility to exercise it in one way or the other.
In virtue of what do we choose one way or the other? in virtue of things God has given us.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #519 on: September 22, 2017, 01:43:24 PM »
Some comments from DBH at the Eclectic Orthodoxy blog:

Quote
Because God is not a finite object over against you as a subject, you cannot simply turn away towards ‘something else.’; He is the ground and end of all desire and knowledge as such, the Good in itself. You cannot choose or not choose God the way you would choose or not choose a cup of coffee. You desire anything because of your original desire for God as the transcendental Good and Beautiful; you know anything because of your original intellectual appetite for God as the transcendental Truth as such. Even in desiring to flee God, you are desiring God as the ‘good end’ you seek in godlessness. He is inescapable because all being, goodness, unity, truth, and beauty simply are God in their transcendent truth, and because a rational nature is nothing but an infinite dynamic orientation towards that transcendent end. The natural will, as Maximus says, can will only God. Don’t think of God as a candidate in a political race, whom you could simply reject and be done with; he is the original and final act of your every discrete act of desire. And, in the ages, since God is all and there is literally nothing beyond him, the natural will is always seeking its natural supernatural end. Simply said, God is not an object of desire; he is the end that makes desire.

Quote
In simple terms, if a deranged man chooses to slash himself with a knife or set fire to himself, you would not be interfering with his ‘freedom’ by preventing him from doing so. You would be rescuing him from his slavery to madness. This is why the free-will defense of the idea of an eternal hell is essentially gibberish. Which, incidentally, does not break from the ‘synergist’ view. It is merely to say that the cooperation of the created will with God’s is still a cooperation–if needs be by terrible purgation–in restoring a human soul to its natural state. I think of Gregory of Nyssa deals with this quite delightfully and cogently in De anima et resurrection.

Quote
No one can freely will the evil as evil; one can take the evil for the good, but that does not alter the prior transcendental orientation that wakens all desire. To see the good truly is to desire it insatiably; not to desire it is not to have known it, and so never to have been free to choose it. It makes no more sense to say that God allows creatures to damn themselves than to say a father might reasonably allow his deranged child to thrust her face into a fire out of tender respect for her moral autonomy. And the argument becomes quite insufferable when one considers the personal conditions—ignorance, mortality, defectibility of intellect and will—under which each soul enters the world, and the circumstances—the suffering of all creatures, even the most innocent and delightful of them—with which that world confronts the soul.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 01:45:35 PM by Iconodule »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #520 on: September 22, 2017, 04:18:27 PM »
But the will is not a blank slate that shows one thing or another. Its free inclination like all things is toward God. A will embroiled in sin is not free. And that's not Calvin, that's Saint Maximus.

I've always understood human free will to be inclined, but not determined, towards sin. Nevertheless, it is not totally depraved. It still has the choice on its very own to received God's grace and participate with the divine energies. The human being might be indulging in sin and therefore a slave to it, but it is not deprived of its agency and capacity to accept the ever present grace of God.

The human being is also strongly inclined toward God its Father.

I'm torn on this point. If such is as you say, then why has most of the world throughout human history turned from God? I think you're overrating humanity a little bit.

What the heck? What's your religious and educational background? God is the father and savior of mankind. You're really just expressing unbelief in God.
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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #521 on: September 22, 2017, 04:32:00 PM »
DBH is once really clever guy, but sometimes I wonder if he isn't building Western Captivity 2.0? He does sound a lot like Thomas Aquinas, whom he openly respects.

Whereas the rule for practising Orthodox theology should be simple:
"If you are a theologian, you will pray truly. And if you pray truly, you are a theologian." Evagrius Ponticus, Treatise on Prayer, 61, quoted after OrthodoxWiki.

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #522 on: September 22, 2017, 04:33:25 PM »
DBH is once really clever guy, but sometimes I wonder if he isn't building Western Captivity 2.0? He does sound a lot like Thomas Aquinas, whom he openly respects.

 ::)

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #523 on: September 22, 2017, 05:29:26 PM »
But the will is not a blank slate that shows one thing or another. Its free inclination like all things is toward God. A will embroiled in sin is not free. And that's not Calvin, that's Saint Maximus.

I've always understood human free will to be inclined, but not determined, towards sin. Nevertheless, it is not totally depraved. It still has the choice on its very own to received God's grace and participate with the divine energies. The human being might be indulging in sin and therefore a slave to it, but it is not deprived of its agency and capacity to accept the ever present grace of God.

The human being is also strongly inclined toward God its Father.

I'm torn on this point. If such is as you say, then why has most of the world throughout human history turned from God? I think you're overrating humanity a little bit.

What the heck? What's your religious and educational background? God is the father and savior of mankind. You're really just expressing unbelief in God.

And yet, none of that addresses a word I said. Classic Porter moment. Someone raises a question regarding one of your positions? They must be some sort of heretical monster or a closet atheist.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #524 on: September 22, 2017, 05:34:46 PM »
That the human will is perverted by the fall, I don't think anyone disputes. Our fallen will is not free- it can only be freed by grace. A will is free (paraphrasing Saint Maximus again) insofar as it wills according to its nature, and our nature, like all created natures, is inclined toward God. So it's not that God forces us to be good but that our will, freed from sin, inclines naturally to him. Free from sin, it could still make the wrong choice, as Adam did, but in doing so it becomes enveloped in passions and loses its freedom. This freedom was restored in Christ, and through him for all people (via baptism and the other mysteries), and through him is unassailable.

I agree with this formulation. Thanks for the clarification.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #525 on: September 22, 2017, 06:19:04 PM »
DBH is once really clever guy, but sometimes I wonder if he isn't building Western Captivity 2.0? He does sound a lot like Thomas Aquinas, whom he openly respects.
Contrary to Metropolitan Heirotheos and friends, the east is all about rationality too. You were sold a historical revision.

DBH's work may be boring, polemical, melodramatic, pseudoclassicist, middling and LARPy, but you can't fault him on this particular point.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 06:22:58 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #526 on: September 22, 2017, 07:34:12 PM »
DBH is once really clever guy, but sometimes I wonder if he isn't building Western Captivity 2.0? He does sound a lot like Thomas Aquinas, whom he openly respects.
Contrary to Metropolitan Heirotheos and friends, the east is all about rationality too. You were sold a historical revision.
There is a difference between rationality and rationalism.

The Metropolitan of Nafpaktos does not reject reason. He rejects reason being valued above revelation. This is Orthodox teaching, confirmed synodally in the condemnation of Barlaam.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 07:34:46 PM by Antonis »
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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #527 on: September 22, 2017, 08:30:41 PM »
Well then how do you define this "rationalism" and how do you perceive it in the DBH quotes above, in a way not found in, e.g., Sts Maximus, John Damascene, Gregory Palamas?
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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #528 on: September 22, 2017, 09:21:24 PM »
Well then how do you define this "rationalism" and how do you perceive it in the DBH quotes above, in a way not found in, e.g., Sts Maximus, John Damascene, Gregory Palamas?
Apologies, that wasn't my intention. I only took issue with a common critique made towards Metropolitan Hierotheos and those like him, although I now see how it could've been read as supporting Gorazd's comment.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #529 on: September 23, 2017, 01:52:20 AM »
You were sold a historical revision.

Let's answer this in a "rational" way...
1) I got the quote for free from Orthodoxwiki, so I didn't buy anything.
2) It's a rather old quote from one of the autors of the Philokalia, so long before the debates of the 20th century.

And I still believe that Holy Orthodoxy is about theosis. I accept the writing of St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Maximos the Confessor, but I am deeply sceptical about attempts to interpret them in a Thomist or Calvinist way. Instead, as an introduction to their thought, I would recommend "Deification in Christ" by Panayiotis Nellas, English Translation published by St. Vladimir's Seminary Press.



There is a difference between rationality and rationalism.

The Metropolitan of Nafpaktos does not reject reason. He rejects reason being valued above revelation. This is Orthodox teaching, confirmed synodally in the condemnation of Barlaam.
Thank you. I completely agree.

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #530 on: September 23, 2017, 02:08:27 AM »
Let's answer this in a "rational" way...
1) I got the quote for free from Orthodoxwiki, so I didn't buy anything.
I never said anything about the provenance of your quote.


I accept the writing of St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Maximos the Confessor, but I am deeply sceptical about attempts to interpret them in a Thomist or Calvinist way.
Unless you have an account against an interpretation (whatever it is) who cares what you're skeptical of? I mean I'm skeptical of a lot of stuff.


« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 02:10:55 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #531 on: September 23, 2017, 02:48:15 AM »
You were sold a historical revision.

Let's answer this in a "rational" way...
1) I got the quote for free from Orthodoxwiki, so I didn't buy anything.
2) It's a rather old quote from one of the autors of the Philokalia, so long before the debates of the 20th century.

And I still believe that Holy Orthodoxy is about theosis. I accept the writing of St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Maximos the Confessor, but I am deeply sceptical about attempts to interpret them in a Thomist or Calvinist way.

You're the one who brought up Calvin and Aquinas. What makes you think these arguments have anything to do with either? Just because DBH likes some things about Aquinas? That's a pretty weak connection (also doesn't touch Iconodule's use of St. Maximus).

All you've done is throw out some crude LFW* and asserted that it's more Orthodox just because a theologian is one who prays. Never mind the fact that that maxim has never stopped Eastern Fathers from spilling just as much ink on complex topics as their Western counterparts.

Instead, as an introduction to their thought, I would recommend "Deification in Christ" by Panayiotis Nellas, English Translation published by St. Vladimir's Seminary Press.

And what do Nellas's points have to say about the question at hand? It's kind of cheap to just say "read this entire book to see how I win the argument."




*Libertarian Free Will, as differentiated from Compatibilistic Free Will (CFW)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 02:48:57 AM by Volnutt »
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #532 on: September 23, 2017, 02:53:39 AM »
Weird coincidence, but I came across this bit from Zizek's book Absolute Recoil:

"This is why radical acts of freedom are possible only under the condition of predestination: in predestination, we know we are predestined, but we don’t know how we are predestined, i.e., which of our choices is predetermined, and this terrifying situation in which we have to decide what to do, knowing that our decision is decided in advance, is perhaps the only case of real freedom, of the unbearable burden of a really free choice—we know that what we will do is predestined, but we still have to take a risk and subjectively choose what is predestined."

I wouldn't want to live in a world where that was true or worship a deity who set things up that way.

...tough excreta?


I don't want to live in a world where God let's babies get cancer, but it seems I don't have a choice in the matter.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #533 on: September 23, 2017, 03:26:22 AM »
Some comments from DBH at the Eclectic Orthodoxy blog:

Quote
Because God is not a finite object over against you as a subject, you cannot simply turn away towards ‘something else.’; He is the ground and end of all desire and knowledge as such, the Good in itself. You cannot choose or not choose God the way you would choose or not choose a cup of coffee. You desire anything because of your original desire for God as the transcendental Good and Beautiful; you know anything because of your original intellectual appetite for God as the transcendental Truth as such. Even in desiring to flee God, you are desiring God as the ‘good end’ you seek in godlessness. He is inescapable because all being, goodness, unity, truth, and beauty simply are God in their transcendent truth, and because a rational nature is nothing but an infinite dynamic orientation towards that transcendent end. The natural will, as Maximus says, can will only God. Don’t think of God as a candidate in a political race, whom you could simply reject and be done with; he is the original and final act of your every discrete act of desire. And, in the ages, since God is all and there is literally nothing beyond him, the natural will is always seeking its natural supernatural end. Simply said, God is not an object of desire; he is the end that makes desire.

Quote
In simple terms, if a deranged man chooses to slash himself with a knife or set fire to himself, you would not be interfering with his ‘freedom’ by preventing him from doing so. You would be rescuing him from his slavery to madness. This is why the free-will defense of the idea of an eternal hell is essentially gibberish. Which, incidentally, does not break from the ‘synergist’ view. It is merely to say that the cooperation of the created will with God’s is still a cooperation–if needs be by terrible purgation–in restoring a human soul to its natural state. I think of Gregory of Nyssa deals with this quite delightfully and cogently in De anima et resurrection.

Quote
No one can freely will the evil as evil; one can take the evil for the good, but that does not alter the prior transcendental orientation that wakens all desire. To see the good truly is to desire it insatiably; not to desire it is not to have known it, and so never to have been free to choose it. It makes no more sense to say that God allows creatures to damn themselves than to say a father might reasonably allow his deranged child to thrust her face into a fire out of tender respect for her moral autonomy. And the argument becomes quite insufferable when one considers the personal conditions—ignorance, mortality, defectibility of intellect and will—under which each soul enters the world, and the circumstances—the suffering of all creatures, even the most innocent and delightful of them—with which that world confronts the soul.

Well it's certainly an elegant attempt at any rate, but doesn't saying that desiring sin is ultimately a form of desiring God imply that His house is divided against itself a la Mark 3:24-26? I'm also not sure how this squares with James 1:13-16.

This also doesn't really account for how anybody actually rebels against God in the first place. Were we just made flawed and sin basically happened at random (Adam and Eve one day just all of a sudden started mistaking evil for good)? Perhaps he addresses this somewhere else?

I'm also not sure an answer like "this all only happened because you were incapable of desiring anything but God" avoids the kind of pat gibberish explanations of accountability and Hell that DBH is trying to avoid.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 03:33:44 AM by Volnutt »
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #534 on: September 23, 2017, 08:48:12 AM »
It's safe to say that Sister Vassa's situation is a matter for her bishop and her abbess, not for us.
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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #535 on: September 24, 2017, 06:51:52 PM »
It's safe to say that Sister Vassa's situation is a matter for her bishop and her abbess, not for us.

Surely not for you as a Roman Catholic.
But in Orthodoxy
1) Laypeople do care about maintaining the right faith. Sometimes emperors and bishops betrayed Orthodoxy, but laypeople refused to follow them.
2) If it was a merely personal thing, it would be between her and her bishop/synod. (AFAIK she doesn't have an abbess, but she is directly under Archbishop Mark). But since Sister Vassa still acts as an authority and many people trust her, we must speak out against people being mislead.

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #536 on: September 24, 2017, 07:32:56 PM »
If I recall rightly, people not just laity but not even officially Orthodox (catechumens or just inquirers) were calling for her to be thrown out of the convent.

Clerical (including monks and nuns) gossip is fun. They can't defend themselves like people in the world. It's easy to do online. I've done it. It's also a sin.
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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #537 on: September 24, 2017, 07:36:18 PM »
If I recall rightly, people not just laity but not even officially Orthodox (catechumens or just inquirers) were calling for her to be thrown out of the convent.

Clerical (including monks and nuns) gossip is fun. They can't defend themselves like people in the world. It's easy to do online. I've done it. It's also a sin.
She made it public, not us.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #538 on: September 25, 2017, 02:47:13 AM »
Clerical (including monks and nuns) gossip is fun. They can't defend themselves like people in the world. It's easy to do online.
If anyone can defend herself online, surely Sister Vassa... I am not sure if you have noticed, but although she formally is a nun, she doesn't live "outside the world" in a monastery. In fact, her "apostolic monasticism" is something your should be familiar with as a Roman Catholic. She herself admitted herself that her kind of life is not what is usual in Orthodoxy, and she is more inspired by Jesuits, such as Fr. Robert Taft SJ, a Greek Catholic Jesuite under whom she studied for a PhD in liturgical science.


 
It's also a sin.
Let that be between the individual and one's confessor... We deal with such issues with ikonomia, taking into account the individual criticism, its intentions and circumstances, not with "one size sits all" rules.

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #539 on: September 25, 2017, 10:01:35 AM »
Well it's certainly an elegant attempt at any rate, but doesn't saying that desiring sin is ultimately a form of desiring God imply that His house is divided against itself a la Mark 3:24-26? I'm also not sure how this squares with James 1:13-16.

I think it goes more along the lines of understanding that evil has no real substance. It can only be a distortion of what God has made, of what is good, mistaking things for God that aren't. It does not mean that sin is a legitimate expression of the good creation, just that it can only cannibalize it. And we cannot cast out demons by demons.

Quote
This also doesn't really account for how anybody actually rebels against God in the first place. Were we just made flawed and sin basically happened at random (Adam and Eve one day just all of a sudden started mistaking evil for good)? Perhaps he addresses this somewhere else?

That's a fair point and to be honest I'm not sure if anyone has been able to adequately account for the fall. I haven't read DBH's books yet so I can't comment on whether he attempts to address it. The usual basic approach is to say Adam (like angels) was different from other creatures in that he was made to love God voluntarily, that is, he had the possibility of turning away. But why would he turn away? If we say that the temptation of the serpent was a major factor, then we have to ask why the devil turned away too. In any case Saint Maximus talks about this gnomic/ deliberative will in man, which could, under the influence of some deception, be exercised to choose something other than God, at which point the will becomes plunged into confusion and sin. Somehow the incarnation restores the human will, not merely to a pre-Fall state but something better. That stuff goes over my head at the moment. It seems to me there is no theological model that is problem free, but some are more helpful than others.
Quote
Don John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop
- GK Chesteron, "Lepanto"