Author Topic: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)  (Read 12085 times)

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2017, 06:22:36 PM »
Sister Vassa moved her podcast to her own site a while ago, and there are still over 70 episodes on her YT channel. There's plenty others to listen to on AFR.

Not just to her own site - her Patreon. For $5/month you can apparently access two of her weekly podcasts, with higher $/month options available. Seems a little strange for a nun to block her content off behind a paywall in order to get monthly donations.
I do agree with that. It seems quite odd. Getting funded through advertising is one thing. Paywalls are quite another.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2017, 06:23:04 PM »
I did not see anywhere that she endorsed homosexuality. She responded to a mother who was struggling to figure out how she should respond to her son's announcement. I suspect different advice would have been given if the son himself had written to her. The mother needed on advice on how to respond, not get a lecture on how homosexuality is a sin. She already knew that or she wouldn't be asking Sister Vassa for advice.

She said:
  • That homosexuality is a created state
  • That homosexual sins are lesser than other sins
  • That the child can "date"
  • That the Church is incorrect on this subject

So what on earth would she have to say to "endorse homosexuality" in your view -- that the mother sins by not being lesbian?
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2017, 06:23:40 PM »
Sister Vassa moved her podcast to her own site a while ago, and there are still over 70 episodes on her YT channel. There's plenty others to listen to on AFR.

Not just to her own site - her Patreon. For $5/month you can apparently access two of her weekly podcasts, with higher $/month options available. Seems a little strange for a nun to block her content off behind a paywall in order to get monthly donations.
I do agree with that. It seems quite odd. Getting funded through advertising is one thing. Paywalls are quite another.

Where's her monastic superior?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #48 on: July 07, 2017, 06:27:00 PM »
Again you are misreading her words and I must assume at this point it is deliberate.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #49 on: July 07, 2017, 06:32:55 PM »
I don't think it's deliberate.  I just wanted to jump in and make a point that it is very easy to misunderstand her.

But I also think that I am trying very hard to be very fair in understanding her point, even though I disagree with her advice, and I hope others can do that too so that we can avoid a very contentious debate.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #50 on: July 07, 2017, 06:41:21 PM »
For my part, I can't overstate enough the difference it makes that this is a child. To come forth with progressive platitudes one hopes will solace the associates of some grown person with an established persona and pattern of behavior is understandable and I've surely done it myself. To employ the same as rearing and nurturing advice for a child who has no real concept of himself or the world is a very, very, very different matter.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #51 on: July 07, 2017, 06:43:48 PM »
I did not see anywhere that she endorsed homosexuality. She responded to a mother who was struggling to figure out how she should respond to her son's announcement. I suspect different advice would have been given if the son himself had written to her. The mother needed on advice on how to respond, not get a lecture on how homosexuality is a sin. She already knew that or she wouldn't be asking Sister Vassa for advice.

She said:
  • That homosexuality is a created state
  • That homosexual sins are lesser than other sins
  • That the child can "date"
  • That the Church is incorrect on this subject

So what on earth would she have to say to "endorse homosexuality" in your view -- that the mother sins by not being lesbian?

1. She doesn't say it is a "created state". She said:
Quote
We do know today, according to reliable scientific studies, that this sexual orientation is formed in most (not all) cases, by the early age of 3-4. Importantly, it is before the “age of reason,” which is traditionally considered the age of 7, so it is not a “choice.” You mention that you knew this about your son well before he came out to you now, at the age of 14. I have heard this from several mothers of homosexual children, including one wife of an Orthodox priest, that they “knew” it from their child’s early childhood.
Attraction to the same sex is not a choice, and God did not create people to be gay, but it does seem to be imprinted on someone as a rather young age. Similarly, there are a multitude of sins that God did not create people to be that way, but certain people have tendencies towards those sins. It is part of our fallen nature.

2. She doesn't say it is a lesser sin, she says it isn't a greater sin than other sexual sins.
Quote
We can and do separate the question of “culpability” for the sin, and the sin itself, - so let me point out that God must also. In most cases, homosexuality is not one’s own choice. So, “crossing the line” in this area, and not committing to total celibacy, as one “must” do according to traditional, scriptural law, is “more tolerable” in God’s eyes (as Christ says in the above-quoted passage), than our other kinds of trespasses. Among our “other” trespasses let me mention heterosexual adultery, masturbation, premarital sex, and just “looking lustfully at a woman”
She is stating that just like Christ said that it was more tolerable for Sodom and Gommorah in their judgement than it will be for those who willingly refuse Christ's disciples. I will note that I don't agree with her interpretation of that passage here, but the fact remains, she is not making it a lesser sin, but stating it is equal with other sexual sins.

3. She doesn't say the child can date, she says the child will date, so you might as well let it be in the presence of parents instead of sneaking off. This is a similar argument that many Christians make about birth control. If my kid is going to have sex, they should at least know about birth control. It doesn't mean the parent endorses their kid having sex, it is rather a pragmatic view of the situation. I will again note that I disagree with this advice, but what she is saying is different than what you are claiming she is saying.

4. She does not say the Church is wrong, she says she is giving her personal opinion on this particular situation. She states:
Quote
I must say, and cannot say otherwise, that actively living it out is a sin. It’s a no-no.
Her difference with official pronouncements is with how we respond and react to someone who is gay, not with whether it is a sin or not.

As I said before, I disagree with some of what she said and the conclusions that she draws, but it is more just because it is not the best advice instead of her attempting to change any sort of Church teaching.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 06:44:36 PM by TheTrisagion »
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #52 on: July 07, 2017, 06:49:47 PM »
I did not see anywhere that she endorsed homosexuality. She responded to a mother who was struggling to figure out how she should respond to her son's announcement. I suspect different advice would have been given if the son himself had written to her. The mother needed on advice on how to respond, not get a lecture on how homosexuality is a sin. She already knew that or she wouldn't be asking Sister Vassa for advice.

I haven't seen the original post, but based upon the article, I would read the line advising the mother that "the parents should allow their son to date boys at home" to constitute a reluctant endorsement of said wrong and sinful behavior.  Like Mina said, in my parents' house, I abided by my parents' rules in compliance with their sense of morality, and that held true until the last day I walked out the door as an independent adult.  I find this new parenting trend of "We have to face the 'inevitable' and acquiesce to what the kids are going to do anyway..." to be weak and not to be parenting at all.  It's certainly not a notion my Mom and Dad would've bought into, and to see any public figure in the Church peddling it is disturbing.

Moreover, the bit which says:

Quote
But there are so many other things, which we tolerate in ourselves as ‘only human.’ As the homosexual inclination is most often not a conscious 'choice,' but is formed in children from 3-4 years old, according to scientific studies, Sr. Vassa writes that there is therefore less culpability for homosexual sins than for many other sins, arguing that most people have a double standard about homosexuality.

is not only a load of rubbish utterly inconsistent with what the Church has always taught, but also seems to me a step towards the idea that a place should be made for unrepentant, practicing homosexuals in the Church.  As the many debates and articles posted on these boards in recent years have shown , Sister Vassa's isn't a lone voice here, but is representative of significant number of laity and even clergy who seem to think that the Church should "evolve" on the issue of homosexual relationships.  My thought is always to err on the side of love and compassion, but I can't see actively endorsing this sin any more than I can that of Matthew Heimbach.  To do so is hypocritical.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 06:59:34 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
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Offline Arachne

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #53 on: July 07, 2017, 06:51:52 PM »
Sister Vassa moved her podcast to her own site a while ago, and there are still over 70 episodes on her YT channel. There's plenty others to listen to on AFR.

Not just to her own site - her Patreon. For $5/month you can apparently access two of her weekly podcasts, with higher $/month options available. Seems a little strange for a nun to block her content off behind a paywall in order to get monthly donations.
I do agree with that. It seems quite odd. Getting funded through advertising is one thing. Paywalls are quite another.

It may have something to do with no longer having access to AFR podmaking resources, and with being the one who has to maintain the site and support the people involved in other projects on there, like the comic strip.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2017, 06:54:56 PM »
Well, one thing is for sure:  we know at least one or two AFR podcasts will be discussing this very thing
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2017, 06:55:06 PM »
So it turns out it was all a story concocted by a certain Jessee Dominic clown
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #56 on: July 07, 2017, 07:00:06 PM »
????????????????

Okay.  Confusion.

Are you guys saying in some manner that there is something wrong with AFR?  Because I listen to it, like, a lot.

Comments?

I had the same question a while back, but think it went unasked.  I listened a lot, too--hours and hours of podcasts; whole series.  At the time, it was crucial (brink-of-total-apostasy and all that).  Over time, however, I've listened less, but not because I dislike it or find it wrong.  Possibly I just burnt myself out.  I'd maybe frame it as a tool for learning about the Faith, but not for practicing the Faith.  Just like I have a (Protestant) friend who feels that her "time with the Lord" is sufficiently conducted by listening to podcasts or reading books by the leading Someone-or-Another, it can be tempting to feel we've "Orthodoxed" by binging on AFR podcasts.  Pursue Orthodoxy, recognize that AFR is just one way to do that, and that it exists in a much broader context; you'll be fine.  :)
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Offline Hinterlander

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #57 on: July 07, 2017, 07:08:25 PM »
The podcasts vary considerably so I don't see how there can be a blanket condemnation of the contents of the site unless this diversity is part of the problem.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #58 on: July 07, 2017, 07:37:24 PM »
I did not see anywhere that she endorsed homosexuality. She responded to a mother who was struggling to figure out how she should respond to her son's announcement. I suspect different advice would have been given if the son himself had written to her. The mother needed on advice on how to respond, not get a lecture on how homosexuality is a sin. She already knew that or she wouldn't be asking Sister Vassa for advice.

She said:
  • That homosexuality is a created state
  • That homosexual sins are lesser than other sins
  • That the child can "date"
  • That the Church is incorrect on this subject

So what on earth would she have to say to "endorse homosexuality" in your view -- that the mother sins by not being lesbian?

1. She doesn't say it is a "created state". She said:
Quote
We do know today, according to reliable scientific studies, that this sexual orientation is formed in most (not all) cases, by the early age of 3-4. Importantly, it is before the “age of reason,” which is traditionally considered the age of 7, so it is not a “choice.” You mention that you knew this about your son well before he came out to you now, at the age of 14. I have heard this from several mothers of homosexual children, including one wife of an Orthodox priest, that they “knew” it from their child’s early childhood.
Attraction to the same sex is not a choice, and God did not create people to be gay, but it does seem to be imprinted on someone as a rather young age. Similarly, there are a multitude of sins that God did not create people to be that way, but certain people have tendencies towards those sins. It is part of our fallen nature.

Okay, I don't know why you're picking this particular fight, but the way you're going about it is
 pretty silly. If someone is trapped into homosexuality from the age of three, and if I believe in a Creator, then it's a created state.

Quote
2. She doesn't say it is a lesser sin, she says it isn't a greater sin than other sexual sins.
Quote
We can and do separate the question of “culpability” for the sin, and the sin itself, - so let me point out that God must also. In most cases, homosexuality is not one’s own choice. So, “crossing the line” in this area, and not committing to total celibacy, as one “must” do according to traditional, scriptural law, is “more tolerable” in God’s eyes (as Christ says in the above-quoted passage), than our other kinds of trespasses. Among our “other” trespasses let me mention heterosexual adultery, masturbation, premarital sex, and just “looking lustfully at a woman”
She is stating that just like Christ said that it was more tolerable for Sodom and Gommorah in their judgement than it will be for those who willingly refuse Christ's disciples. I will note that I don't agree with her interpretation of that passage here, but the fact remains, she is not making it a lesser sin, but stating it is equal with other sexual sins.

So her saying homosexuality is "more tolerable in God's eyes" than other sins doesn't mean she is saying it is "a lesser sin"? Just the fact she specifies it is more tolerable in God's eyes than fornication, thus different from and superior to heterosexual sins, demonstrates she is informing herself by the fad of LGBTQ exceptionalism.

Quote
3. She doesn't say the child can date, she says the child will date, so you might as well let it be in the presence of parents instead of sneaking off. This is a similar argument that many Christians make about birth control. If my kid is going to have sex, they should at least know about birth control. It doesn't mean the parent endorses their kid having sex, it is rather a pragmatic view of the situation. I will again note that I disagree with this advice, but what she is saying is different than what you are claiming she is saying.

I don't know many Christians handing out birth control to fourteen-year-olds, but that's a digression. By saying "hey you have to give up" on their own child, she's betraying that she doesn't consider homosexuality dangerous. It's inconceivable she'd say the same thing about a child's request to try heroin or even a child confessing he has deep depression.

Quote
4. She does not say the Church is wrong, she says she is giving her personal opinion on this particular situation. She states:
Quote
I must say, and cannot say otherwise, that actively living it out is a sin. It’s a no-no.
Her difference with official pronouncements is with how we respond and react to someone who is gay, not with whether it is a sin or not.

When a sentence is tacked on like that and completely contrasts with the burden of the letter, not to mention when it uses hand-to-brow rhetorical phrases, that's probably just so much hypocritical sophistry.

Quote
As I said before, I disagree with some of what she said and the conclusions that she draws, but it is more just because it is not the best advice instead of her attempting to change any sort of Church teaching.

Again, she herself both explicitly says and then implies that it is not Church teaching. As for its being poor advice in a practical way, I'm sure we're all ears to hear your alternative.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #59 on: July 07, 2017, 07:57:01 PM »
So it turns out it was all a story concocted by a certain Jessee Dominic clown

Is he an activist?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #60 on: July 07, 2017, 07:59:54 PM »
... a step towards the idea that a place should be made for unrepentant, practicing homosexuals in the Church.  As the many debates and articles posted on these boards in recent years have shown , Sister Vassa's isn't a lone voice here, but is representative of significant number of laity and even clergy who seem to think that the Church should "evolve" on the issue of homosexual relationships. ...

Bingo.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #61 on: July 07, 2017, 08:02:50 PM »
So it turns out it was all a story concocted by a certain Jessee Dominic clown

Is he an activist?
I know Jesse personally. He is...intense. I have many stories about him, but it probably wouldn't be appropriate to post them here.
God bless!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #62 on: July 07, 2017, 08:31:15 PM »
Not sure if anyone posted the text of the letter, but it seems to be available here about halfway down. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #63 on: July 07, 2017, 08:45:46 PM »
... a step towards the idea that a place should be made for unrepentant, practicing homosexuals in the Church.  As the many debates and articles posted on these boards in recent years have shown , Sister Vassa's isn't a lone voice here, but is representative of significant number of laity and even clergy who seem to think that the Church should "evolve" on the issue of homosexual relationships. ...

Bingo.
although always centuries behind times , she has evolved on a number of other issues so who knows. She might in a century or so.
She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #64 on: July 07, 2017, 08:52:14 PM »
Porter, you state: "Okay, I don't know why you're picking this particular fight, but the way you're going about it is pretty silly. If someone is trapped into homosexuality from the age of three, and if I believe in a Creator, then it's a created state."

How about simply a result of our fallen natures like any other disorder?
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2017, 08:56:04 PM »
Porter, you state: "Okay, I don't know why you're picking this particular fight, but the way you're going about it is pretty silly. If someone is trapped into homosexuality from the age of three, and if I believe in a Creator, then it's a created state."

How about simply a result of our fallen natures like any other disorder?

My point is that if we teach that a homosexual "condition" is always already irretrievably rooted at "age three," then to pretend this is somehow different from the secular pop doctrine that homosexuality is the provision of the human genome (something various twin studies have disproved, by the way; not that I give any credence to any of that) is just being weaselly. Just come out and say it: "God made this child gay."
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 08:57:11 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #66 on: July 07, 2017, 08:59:46 PM »
Porter, you state: "Okay, I don't know why you're picking this particular fight, but the way you're going about it is pretty silly. If someone is trapped into homosexuality from the age of three, and if I believe in a Creator, then it's a created state."

How about simply a result of our fallen natures like any other disorder?

My point is that if we teach that a homosexual "condition" is always already irretrievably rooted at "age three," then to pretend this is somehow different from the secular pop doctrine that homosexuality is the provision of the human genome (something various twin studies have disproved, by the way; not that I give any credence to any of that) is just being weaselly. Just come out and say it: "God made this child gay."

And actually, now that I think of it, the "age three" teaching is, while no less a finger at God, quite a bit more repulsive than the simple genetic claim. How? Because it supposes that the sexuality of three-year-olds is testable. God save us.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #67 on: July 07, 2017, 09:05:18 PM »
There are kids that are predisposed to homosexuality just like children are predisposed to lie to their parents, steal cookies from the cupboards, masturbate at a very young age, become alcoholics, etc. I'm not sure why any of this surprises you. Is there a reason you need to put homosexuality in a different category than other temptations that people are disposed towards?
God bless!

Offline augustin717

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #68 on: July 07, 2017, 09:11:12 PM »
Porter, you state: "Okay, I don't know why you're picking this particular fight, but the way you're going about it is pretty silly. If someone is trapped into homosexuality from the age of three, and if I believe in a Creator, then it's a created state."

How about simply a result of our fallen natures like any other disorder?

My point is that if we teach that a homosexual "condition" is always already irretrievably rooted at "age three," then to pretend this is somehow different from the secular pop doctrine that homosexuality is the provision of the human genome (something various twin studies have disproved, by the way; not that I give any credence to any of that) is just being weaselly. Just come out and say it: "God made this child gay."
well I guess you could even say that. And back it up with the troparion from the funeral service:
"O Creator, * in the depth of Your wisdom * You lovingly govern all men * and distribute to each what is for good. ..."
She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #69 on: July 07, 2017, 09:20:10 PM »
There are kids that are predisposed to homosexuality just like children are predisposed to lie to their parents, steal cookies from the cupboards, masturbate at a very young age, become alcoholics, etc. I'm not sure why any of this surprises you. Is there a reason you need to put homosexuality in a different category than other temptations that people are disposed towards?

I'm not the one making a special category here. "Born that way" isn't a movement of masturbaters or thieves, much less an Orthodox movement.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #70 on: July 07, 2017, 09:20:33 PM »
Porter, you state: "Okay, I don't know why you're picking this particular fight, but the way you're going about it is pretty silly. If someone is trapped into homosexuality from the age of three, and if I believe in a Creator, then it's a created state."

How about simply a result of our fallen natures like any other disorder?

My point is that if we teach that a homosexual "condition" is always already irretrievably rooted at "age three," then to pretend this is somehow different from the secular pop doctrine that homosexuality is the provision of the human genome (something various twin studies have disproved, by the way; not that I give any credence to any of that) is just being weaselly. Just come out and say it: "God made this child gay."
well I guess you could even say that. And back it up with the troparion from the funeral service:
"O Creator, * in the depth of Your wisdom * You lovingly govern all men * and distribute to each what is for good. ..."

You're really trying to get my attention in this thread, aren't you?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #71 on: July 07, 2017, 09:23:22 PM »
There are kids that are predisposed to homosexuality just like children are predisposed to lie to their parents, steal cookies from the cupboards, masturbate at a very young age, become alcoholics, etc. I'm not sure why any of this surprises you. Is there a reason you need to put homosexuality in a different category than other temptations that people are disposed towards?

I'm not the one making a special category here. "Born that way" isn't a movement of masturbaters or thieves, much less an Orthodox movement.
I will grant you that they aren't making movements about it, but the fact of that matter is they are born with it. We are all born in sin. That is pretty much basic Christian theology. There was a fall, and we suffer the repercussions of that fall from birth. God didn't "create" those traits in us, but we have been deformed by sin to have those traits.
God bless!

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #72 on: July 07, 2017, 09:26:29 PM »
There are kids that are predisposed to homosexuality just like children are predisposed to lie to their parents, steal cookies from the cupboards, masturbate at a very young age, become alcoholics, etc. I'm not sure why any of this surprises you. Is there a reason you need to put homosexuality in a different category than other temptations that people are disposed towards?

I'm not the one making a special category here. "Born that way" isn't a movement of masturbaters or thieves, much less an Orthodox movement.
I will grant you that they aren't making movements about it, but the fact of that matter is they are born with it. We are all born in sin. That is pretty much basic Christian theology. There was a fall, and we suffer the repercussions of that fall from birth. God didn't "create" those traits in us, but we have been deformed by sin to have those traits.

It's very different to say we all sin and must be saved and to talk about a small child in inhuman, materialist terms of permanent fate. I know you're a big fan of materialist explanations of the human being, and so that probably colors your view here, but I also know you're and intelligent thinker and able to make discernments and analyses of difference. There's something different here from normal teaching of our fallen selves, it's just plain.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #73 on: July 07, 2017, 09:34:26 PM »
To be clear, I don't think someone is doomed to a life of homosexuality with no ability to redirect course. I see it as any other number of vices that people struggle with. I struggle with pride, and have from a very early age. Often it comes out and I need introspectively to retrain it. I think having homosexual desires is the same. I've personally never struggled with it, so I feel rather amateurish in explaining it, but just because we are tempted doesn't mean we are doomed to participate in sin. By continually turning to God, those desires can diminish. Similarly, I know people who swear up and down that they cannot be monogamous, it is too taxing for them. Is that true? Probably so. In their own strength, they cannot be monogamous, but if they are to turn to God and as St. Mary of Egypt did, flee from temptation, it can be overcome.

The irony is that St. Mary of Egypt is, as Sister Vassa stated, an excellent role model for this topic, but unfortunately, I don't believe Sister Vassa's advice truly touched on the amazing redemptive story of St. Mary.
God bless!

Offline Quinault

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #74 on: July 07, 2017, 09:45:06 PM »
If a child was deemed heterosexual or homosexual at age 3 there is something seriously wrong with the person making that judgement. At age 3 sex, sexual attraction, and romance aren't even on the radar. At age 3 they are barely out of diapers.

I've actually known quite a few mothers so eager to be "accepting" of a son that they think might end up gay that they change the way they interact with their sons to be supportive of a sexual orientation that hasn't even emerged yet. Before a certain age all children are simply children and nothing more or less. My son might enjoy wearing a pinkie pie tutu whilst playing with his dolls; and that is absolutely fine with me. My daughter may demand a shaved head whilest playing with trucks (true story, that was my eldest daughter) and that is absolutely fine with me too. Making personal choices of what you do or do not like as a child isn't automatically making a declaration of gender or sexual orientation.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 09:45:50 PM by Quinault »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #75 on: July 07, 2017, 09:49:32 PM »
To be clear, I don't think someone is doomed to a life of homosexuality with no ability to redirect course. I see it as any other number of vices that people struggle with. I struggle with pride, and have from a very early age. Often it comes out and I need introspectively to retrain it. I think having homosexual desires is the same. I've personally never struggled with it, so I feel rather amateurish in explaining it, but just because we are tempted doesn't mean we are doomed to participate in sin. By continually turning to God, those desires can diminish. Similarly, I know people who swear up and down that they cannot be monogamous, it is too taxing for them. Is that true? Probably so. In their own strength, they cannot be monogamous, but if they are to turn to God and as St. Mary of Egypt did, flee from temptation, it can be overcome.

The irony is that St. Mary of Egypt is, as Sister Vassa stated, an excellent role model for this topic, but unfortunately, I don't believe Sister Vassa's advice truly touched on the amazing redemptive story of St. Mary.

I think I agree with these thoughts.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #76 on: July 07, 2017, 10:13:08 PM »
... a step towards the idea that a place should be made for unrepentant, practicing homosexuals in the Church.  As the many debates and articles posted on these boards in recent years have shown , Sister Vassa's isn't a lone voice here, but is representative of significant number of laity and even clergy who seem to think that the Church should "evolve" on the issue of homosexual relationships. ...

Bingo.
although always centuries behind times , she has evolved on a number of other issues so who knows. She might in a century or so.

Since you don't believe in God - and presumably believe that those in the Church are just deluding themselves and playing dress up anyway - do you actually care if the Church does or doesn't "evolve" on this issue?  Would some perverse part of you relish seeing the Church debased in this way?  You're obviously still invested in what the Church does anyway, since you still post on a Church related forum.  Just too much a part of you as a Romanian to let go, huh?  Maybe God will use this to call you back yet.

There are kids that are predisposed to homosexuality just like children are predisposed to lie to their parents, steal cookies from the cupboards, masturbate at a very young age, become alcoholics, etc. I'm not sure why any of this surprises you. Is there a reason you need to put homosexuality in a different category than other temptations that people are disposed towards?

Is there a reason that Sister Vassa does while trying to establish that there is "less culpability for homosexual sins than for many other sins"?  To Porter's point, the idea of testing the sexuality of three year old is repugnant in the extreme.  Further, no one is trying to mainstream alcoholism, pick-pocketing, or masturbating in the Orthodox Church.  People are trying to move things to the point that an unrepentant homosexual couple living in what could only ever be described as a state of sin could participate in the life of the Church without being called to repentance.

There are kids that are predisposed to homosexuality just like children are predisposed to lie to their parents, steal cookies from the cupboards, masturbate at a very young age, become alcoholics, etc. I'm not sure why any of this surprises you. Is there a reason you need to put homosexuality in a different category than other temptations that people are disposed towards?

I'm not the one making a special category here. "Born that way" isn't a movement of masturbaters or thieves, much less an Orthodox movement.

+1

If a child was deemed heterosexual or homosexual at age 3 there is something seriously wrong with the person making that judgement. At age 3 sex, sexual attraction, and romance aren't even on the radar. At age 3 they are barely out of diapers.

+1
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #77 on: July 07, 2017, 10:27:23 PM »
They are omni-loving and a-sexual, like angels. Learn from little children for one's own salvation, don't use them in profane argument.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #78 on: July 07, 2017, 10:34:44 PM »
They are omni-loving and a-sexual, like angels. Learn from little children for one's own salvation, don't use them in profane argument.

+1
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #79 on: July 08, 2017, 12:49:38 AM »
They are omni-loving and a-sexual, like angels. Learn from little children for one's own salvation, don't use them in profane argument.

Sexuality seems to have a very limited definition in your use of the term. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #80 on: July 08, 2017, 01:08:11 AM »
They are omni-loving and a-sexual, like angels. Learn from little children for one's own salvation, don't use them in profane argument.

Sexuality seems to have a very limited definition in your use of the term.

Very limited?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #81 on: July 08, 2017, 02:06:02 AM »
Where's her monastic superior?
Where's yours?

Sister Vassa is your de facto superior in virtually every conceivable way. It would be more fitting for you to grovel at the Academy steps than to sneer up at its grapes.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 02:15:17 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #82 on: July 08, 2017, 02:10:37 AM »
Not sure if anyone posted the text of the letter, but it seems to be available here about halfway down.
Wow, that boomer meme is cringe.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #83 on: July 08, 2017, 02:12:57 AM »
[Children] are omni-loving and a-sexual, like angels.
I think you are confusing human children with sterilized facebook pet dogs.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 02:13:19 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #84 on: July 08, 2017, 02:19:47 AM »
Oh good a low I never hoped to plumb: getting to watch OC.net support sexualizing children.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #85 on: July 08, 2017, 02:55:20 AM »
At the very least, repent of "omni-loving," O Pelagian.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 02:55:33 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #86 on: July 08, 2017, 06:39:25 AM »
Sister Vassa moved her podcast to her own site a while ago, and there are still over 70 episodes on her YT channel. There's plenty others to listen to on AFR.

Not just to her own site - her Patreon. For $5/month you can apparently access two of her weekly podcasts, with higher $/month options available. Seems a little strange for a nun to block her content off behind a paywall in order to get monthly donations.
I do agree with that. It seems quite odd. Getting funded through advertising is one thing. Paywalls are quite another.

Considering how much 'outreach' she does and how many comment that her videos have been helpful, I've long wondered why she doesn't get funding from ROCOR.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 06:40:01 AM by FinnJames »

Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #87 on: July 08, 2017, 08:31:07 AM »
Quote
Ancient Faith Radio (AFR) is currently in the process of removing its content from Sr. Vassa (Larin), the popular but controversial monastic podcaster known especially for her show “Coffee with Sr. Vassa.” As attested to by another AFR contributor Fr. Thomas Soroka, this move was prompted by Sr. Vassa’s publication and distribution of an email in response to a request for “insight” from the mother of a 14-year-old boy who recently told his parents he was a homosexual, in which the riassaphore nun admittedly contradicts Church teaching.

http://orthochristian.com/104995.html

Sister Vassa's own words:
Quote
Just a NOTE, for anyone interested (because I've been receiving messages about this): Ancient Faith Radio (AFR) has NOT removed any Coffee-with-Sister-Vassa contents because of my recent reply to a mother about her homosexual son. AFR already removed the coffee-videos a while ago, because I stopped making them, when I monetized my contents and (I myself) made it inaccessible to non-subscribers, including AFR. Nonetheless, AFR still has several of my talks, in audio-recordings, from conferences at which I spoke (like "Orientale Lumen," if you want to check that out). So, please know that AFR did not react in any way, to that post that seems to have traumatized some of our good people here on Facebook. God bless 'em all.  :) 

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1769666573061747&id=100000552634912:

Offline hecma925

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #88 on: July 08, 2017, 09:11:24 AM »
Sister Vassa moved her podcast to her own site a while ago, and there are still over 70 episodes on her YT channel. There's plenty others to listen to on AFR.

Not just to her own site - her Patreon. For $5/month you can apparently access two of her weekly podcasts, with higher $/month options available. Seems a little strange for a nun to block her content off behind a paywall in order to get monthly donations.
I do agree with that. It seems quite odd. Getting funded through advertising is one thing. Paywalls are quite another.

Considering how much 'outreach' she does and how many comment that her videos have been helpful, I've long wondered why she doesn't get funding from ROCOR.

Lol.  When ROCOR stops having to use the Fund for Assistance to pay for priest's medical procedures or paying for monks to have shoes, then they can pay for a university professor for her Youtube videos.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #89 on: July 08, 2017, 10:27:28 AM »
Really, Sr. Vassa offered no words on therapy?  Many a teenager question their sexuality then, but condoning doubling down in a sin is more than imprudent, but sinful in itself.


Lord, have mercy!
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ!