Author Topic: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)  (Read 12821 times)

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #225 on: July 09, 2017, 10:45:18 PM »
One thing I think is borne out in this thread, if subtly, is that similar problems beset heterosexual people. And problems beset children. And married people. And so on. In other words, that the modern world is seriously messed up and perplexing. And more critically, that the people who inhabit it are stretched and twisted and desperate.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #226 on: July 09, 2017, 10:56:59 PM »
Teaching three yr olds sodomy is "normal" is not malicious?
Clearly teaching them anything about sodomy or attempting to "sexualize" them is degenerate and anyone who advocates such is a degenerate, nobody has advocated such in this thread, it's about time this straw man came to an end.

Noting that we are always sexual beings does not imply that degenerate acts toward young people are good or acceptable.

You are better than that, I'd expect it from Charles and Porter in his snappier moments but come on.

If you were to test a toddler's sexual appetites and decide their are for males, then you'd have to teach them something about homosexuality and sexualize them to some extent. Now, if I grant what Mor may have been saying and admit their may be some model researcher's use that correlates, say, love of trucks with appetite for men, then this would not be necessary. However, this is an assumption about whatever study (actually, I think she implies there are many studies) Sr. Vassa is alluding to and one nobody's proved, and any such model would remain quite problematic for other reasons.
I going to again give the caveat that I'm not gay, so I can't speak from any kind of personal experience, but friends of mine who self-identify as gay tell me that they have known they were gay for as long as they can remember. For them, it wasn't even sexual when it started out. When kids in kindergarten have "girlfriends" and "boyfriends", they know nothing about sex or sexuality. It is just a generalized sense of attraction. If kids at a very young age can have that sense of attraction even before they know what sex is, I have to imagine it is either something they are born with or something that develops at a very young age. Could it occur during early brain development? I don't really know. All I know is that people are born or develop at young ages all sorts of disorders which develop into more serious sinful manifestations as they get older. I've know enough people who ended up coming out to me at various points in their lives, most of them as gay, but some of them as transgender, that I really don't know what to think. I don't question that it is sin, but I think that much of how Christians have responded to it has been largely unhelpful and damaging in helping people who struggle with it turn to the Church as a source of healing.

But that's just it: How many are interested in actual healing and how many are interested in validation and being told that they can persist in what the Church deems sinful because "they can't help it" or "it feels like love to them"?
I can only speak from personal experiences I've had. I attended a Christian college, and 3 of my good friends came out as gay to me either while at college or shortly after graduation. None of them at the time were looking for any validation; they wanted to be rid of the feelings. With each of them, I prayed and talked with them, sometimes for years. Eventually all three of them left Christianity and became openly gay. It was after years of long, painful talks, lots of prayer, them going through conversion therapy, pretty much everything they could think of to do to not be gay. They tell me they are much happier and contented now, but I remain haunted, wishing that I could have done something differently, maybe gave better advice, helped them in some way, so they wouldn't have abandoned Christ. All that took place before I was Orthodox, so maybe I would give better advice now, I don't know. I don't feel like I'm any more of an expert on it, since all three of them basically failed Christ.  :'(

I just feel haunted by those three experiences. Like I made a big mistake and I don't know what I could have done differently.

I don't think you should beat yourself up over it.  It's not like you singlehandedly failed them or that it was on you to singlehandedly save them.  God have mercy on them and lead them to His truth.  Like I said before though, men have free will.  If, at some point, someone decides that their sexual identity is more important to them than Christ, that is their sad choice to make.  We can't compel anyone to take up his cross, but we can't pretend it's okay when it's not just to spare people's feelings either, right?
You're right, but through those experiences and those conversations, I can't really see how any of those guys were in a situation where they willingly chose those feelings. Rather, it seems like they were saddled with them for as long as they could remember and then eventually figured it was too hard to fight it anymore and decided to just give in to them. This is where I don't really agree with the "being gay is a choice" thing. Acting out on those feelings is a choice, obviously, but those feelings aren't. At least, that is the distinct impressions I got from my conversations with them.

And I've met a lot of straight men who lead me to believe that being monogamous is not in our nature.  Left to our own devices, most of us would prefer a harem, and most of us feel we're hard wired that way.  It's up to us to live the way God wants us to live though.  We're not free to indulge our lusts, or worse yet, call upon the Church to sanctify or wink at them.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #227 on: July 09, 2017, 11:15:27 PM »
The individual human being separated and analyzed purely as an individual yields as much useful information as analyzing a cell in situ tells us about the needs of the human body. Humankind is properly a Body, and life isolated from that proper organism is deranged.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 11:16:12 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #228 on: July 09, 2017, 11:33:19 PM »
Would it make any difference to anyone if we defined sexuality as human maleness/femaleness?  Such that being a helpmeet was as much a part of Eve's sexuality as childbirth (and so for every woman)?  Hopefully that makes sense; this is how I think about it.  Society has simply flattened and cheapened the concept, and crammed it into a crass little pigeon-hole; I don't think that's a new development, either.  Just my $0.02, though.   ;)
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #229 on: July 09, 2017, 11:40:42 PM »
What is the basis for a supposedly chaste gay couple relationship, as opposed to, say, a chaste parent child cohabitation?

Well, this is a bizarre opening.
When parents live with their kids, it's because they have a natural family relationship based on their family relations by birth. The same thing is true when siblings live together or grandkids or nieces and nephews move in with their relatives.

Men and women who have a marriage or romantic relationship live together because of their sexual attraction combined with their love.

When a pair is gay and recognizes that they have a romantic relationship and common sexual attraction that is the basis of their relationship, then that sexual deviancy is still a cornerstone of their cohabiting relationship. So the gay cohabitation is still at root a deviant one.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #230 on: July 10, 2017, 12:03:27 AM »
Would it make any difference to anyone if we defined sexuality as human maleness/femaleness?  Such that being a helpmeet was as much a part of Eve's sexuality as childbirth (and so for every woman)?  Hopefully that makes sense; this is how I think about it.  Society has simply flattened and cheapened the concept, and crammed it into a crass little pigeon-hole; I don't think that's a new development, either.  Just my $0.02, though.   ;)

That's sex. Or even gender. What they mean by "sexuality" is sexual appetites and tendencies. A homosexual is no longer considered feminine by definition -- that went out in the '50s, and, more importantly, it's just not backed up by facts.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #231 on: July 10, 2017, 12:04:20 AM »
What is the basis for a supposedly chaste gay couple relationship, as opposed to, say, a chaste parent child cohabitation?

Well, this is a bizarre opening.
When parents live with their kids, it's because they have a natural family relationship based on their family relations by birth. The same thing is true when siblings live together or grandkids or nieces and nephews move in with their relatives.

Men and women who have a marriage or romantic relationship live together because of their sexual attraction combined with their love.

When a pair is gay and recognizes that they have a romantic relationship and common sexual attraction that is the basis of their relationship, then that sexual deviancy is still a cornerstone of their cohabiting relationship. So the gay cohabitation is still at root a deviant one.

I assume you don't have sexual relations with your mother. The bizarre part is your, so to speak, bringing it up.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #232 on: July 10, 2017, 12:27:25 AM »
Thread locked pending moderator review.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Bob2

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #233 on: July 19, 2017, 12:55:26 PM »
Quote
NEW YORK: July 19, 2017
Circular Communique from the Chancery of the Synod of Bishops

The Holy Synod, having received the recent text of a publicly-posted e-mail exchange, dated 2nd July 2017, between the Nun Vassa (Larin) and a correspondent, entitled “EMAIL OF THE WEEK: (from a mother, on MY SON IS HOMOSEXUAL),” together with follow-up correspondence, also posted publicly on 8th July 2017, is compelled to confirm to its flock and to all Orthodox Christians that the counsel contained therein is in contradiction to the Church’s teaching on sexuality, repentance and family life. It does not represent an Orthodox understanding of anthropology or theology, and in the counsel it purports to offer presents a grave spiritual danger to those who might follow it, in terms of their own understanding of sexuality, as well as in the rearing of children.
More here: http://www.synod.com/synod/eng2017/20170719_encircularnotice.html

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #234 on: July 19, 2017, 01:00:31 PM »
Thank you, Bishops.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #235 on: July 19, 2017, 01:18:32 PM »
And yet her son is still gay and the nun's personal opinion is still that.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #236 on: July 19, 2017, 01:27:42 PM »
Glory to God!  I very much approve of this response, especially the correctives applied to Sr. Vassa's language concerning what homosexuality is and the clarification concerning the misapplication of the story of St. Mary of Egypt to this problem.

Highlights for me included:

Quote
It should be clear to men and women of faith that mere verbal acknowledgement, with regards to homosexuality, that “actively living it out is a sin,” is not sufficient to establish a text’s keeping with Orthodox teaching in the light of the Gospel, when the same text nevertheless equates homosexuality in numerous places to a “God-given gift, and cross,” or “one’s gift-and-cross of (homo)sexuality” — suggesting, in utter departure from all Christian teaching, that this or any means of behaviour which God identifies as sinful may be His deliberate bestowal upon some (thereby falling into the social trap of suggesting that “God made me that way”); further, that such an entrance into sin is “not a ‘choice’”; and moreover, rather than encouraging that a parent of a child identifying as homosexual should help him, with the Church’s loving care, to repent and seek healing unto redemption of soul and body and the fulness of life, instead suggest either that the child be encouraged to remain in his sin as a “humble presence in [his] parish,” falsely equating a consequent withdrawal of approach to the Holy Mysteries to the example St. Mary of Egypt, whose long struggle without Holy Communion was not due to her steadfastness in sin but to the extreme conviction of her utter repentance; or yet worse, that the parents of a child should seek out a parish that deliberately and knowingly “is acceptive of your son’s particular gift-and-cross,” once more ascribing homosexuality as a bestowal of God, encouraging at the same time the departure from ascetic transformation and the seeking out of a community that might wilfully abandon the Gospel teaching towards repentance, knowingly permitting the faithful to languish in their sin rather than be healed.

And yet her son is still gay

And now she knows that the advice she received from Sr. Vassa concerning him was flawed at best, dangerous at worst, and in contradiction to the Faith of the Orthodox Church as a whole and Sr. Vassa's jurisdiction in particular as articulated by her Synod.

and the nun's personal opinion is still that.

And she is wrong, per her Synod.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 01:30:11 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #237 on: July 19, 2017, 01:29:10 PM »
And yet her son is still gay ...

Probably not, since he's just a 14-year-old kid. But maybe. But the good news here, which Sr. Vassa overlooked, is that he's still a human being and can be saved. Glory to God.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #238 on: July 19, 2017, 01:36:01 PM »
Glory to God!  I very much approve of this response, especially the correctives applied to Sr. Vassa's language concerning what homosexuality is and the clarification concerning the misapplication of the story of St. Mary of Egypt to this problem.

Highlights for me included:

Quote
It should be clear to men and women of faith that mere verbal acknowledgement, with regards to homosexuality, that “actively living it out is a sin,” is not sufficient to establish a text’s keeping with Orthodox teaching in the light of the Gospel, when the same text nevertheless equates homosexuality in numerous places to a “God-given gift, and cross,” or “one’s gift-and-cross of (homo)sexuality” — suggesting, in utter departure from all Christian teaching, that this or any means of behaviour which God identifies as sinful may be His deliberate bestowal upon some (thereby falling into the social trap of suggesting that “God made me that way”); further, that such an entrance into sin is “not a ‘choice’”; and moreover, rather than encouraging that a parent of a child identifying as homosexual should help him, with the Church’s loving care, to repent and seek healing unto redemption of soul and body and the fulness of life, instead suggest either that the child be encouraged to remain in his sin as a “humble presence in [his] parish,” falsely equating a consequent withdrawal of approach to the Holy Mysteries to the example St. Mary of Egypt, whose long struggle without Holy Communion was not due to her steadfastness in sin but to the extreme conviction of her utter repentance; or yet worse, that the parents of a child should seek out a parish that deliberately and knowingly “is acceptive of your son’s particular gift-and-cross,” once more ascribing homosexuality as a bestowal of God, encouraging at the same time the departure from ascetic transformation and the seeking out of a community that might wilfully abandon the Gospel teaching towards repentance, knowingly permitting the faithful to languish in their sin rather than be healed.

And yet her son is still gay

And now she knows that the advice she received from Sr. Vassa concerning him was flawed at best, dangerous at worst, and in contradiction to the Faith of the Orthodox Church as a whole and Sr. Vassa's jurisdiction in particular as articulated by her Synod.

and the nun's personal opinion is still that.

And she is wrong, per her Synod.

1) I don't know that the lady asking the question feels any different now regarding the helpfulness and veracity of Sr's advice. That is an assumption on your part.
2) I don't think a synod gets to determine if someone's personal opinion is wrong.

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #239 on: July 19, 2017, 01:37:56 PM »


And now she knows that the advice she received from Sr. Vassa concerning him was flawed at best, dangerous at worst, and in contradiction to the Faith of the Orthodox Church as a whole and Sr. Vassa's jurisdiction in particular as articulated by her Synod.





I am going to go with, no she probably doesn't know...since the mother is likely still not Orthodox and probably not nearly as absorbed as the InternetDox are with this....


All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #240 on: July 19, 2017, 01:38:47 PM »
And yet her son is still gay ...

Probably not, since he's just a 14-year-old kid. But maybe. But the good news here, which Sr. Vassa overlooked, is that he's still a human being and can be saved. Glory to God.

I am hoping that by 14 you knew your own sexuality. Many kids are sexually active in that ballpark. Are you suggesting that gays can't be saved?

How would you handle your kid being gay and getting married to a person of the same sex and starting a family? Will you hurl insults at them or cut them out of your life?

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #241 on: July 19, 2017, 01:40:20 PM »
1) I don't know that the lady asking the question feels any different now regarding the helpfulness and veracity of Sr's advice.

Who said anything about how she "feels"?  We don't know how she "felt" about Sr. Vassa's advice in the first place.  She now knows her Synod's position on whether or not the advice she received was helpful  It's up to her if she wants to accept that decision in humility or not.

That is an assumption on your part.
2) I don't think a synod gets to determine if someone's personal opinion is wrong.

Tell that to Nestorius.  Sr. Vassa was advancing what her Synod determined to be a wrong theological and anthropological opinion.  They publically corrected that opinion.  In the eyes of her Synod, she is wrong.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #242 on: July 19, 2017, 01:42:11 PM »


And now she knows that the advice she received from Sr. Vassa concerning him was flawed at best, dangerous at worst, and in contradiction to the Faith of the Orthodox Church as a whole and Sr. Vassa's jurisdiction in particular as articulated by her Synod.





I am going to go with, no she probably doesn't know...since the mother is likely still not Orthodox and probably not nearly as absorbed as the InternetDox are with this....

What makes you say that?  Especially the bolded bit?  I know that if a controversy in the Church cropped up around my family, I'd be at least marginally aware of it.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #243 on: July 19, 2017, 01:45:09 PM »


And now she knows that the advice she received from Sr. Vassa concerning him was flawed at best, dangerous at worst, and in contradiction to the Faith of the Orthodox Church as a whole and Sr. Vassa's jurisdiction in particular as articulated by her Synod.





I am going to go with, no she probably doesn't know...since the mother is likely still not Orthodox and probably not nearly as absorbed as the InternetDox are with this....

What makes you say that?  Especially the bolded bit?  I know that if a controversy in the Church cropped up around my family, I'd be at least marginally aware of it.


unless i am grossly mistaken in my remembering, the mother in question was Byzantine Catholic.

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #244 on: July 19, 2017, 01:49:30 PM »


And now she knows that the advice she received from Sr. Vassa concerning him was flawed at best, dangerous at worst, and in contradiction to the Faith of the Orthodox Church as a whole and Sr. Vassa's jurisdiction in particular as articulated by her Synod.





I am going to go with, no she probably doesn't know...since the mother is likely still not Orthodox and probably not nearly as absorbed as the InternetDox are with this....

What makes you say that?  Especially the bolded bit?  I know that if a controversy in the Church cropped up around my family, I'd be at least marginally aware of it.


unless i am grossly mistaken in my remembering, the mother in question was Byzantine Catholic.

That's right!  I'd forgotten!  That said, she's likely one of those Byzantine Catholics who believe that their church and the Orthodox share the same Faith and spirituality, or she probably wouldn't have written to Sr. Vassa in the first place, so the Synod's advice should carry at least as much weight for her as the advice of a nun under that Synod.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #245 on: July 19, 2017, 01:51:07 PM »
So what exactly did Mothet Vassa say wrong? She wrote basically that dating and having sex with people of same sex is a sin and that there are problems with heterosexuality too. This is so scandalous that ROCOR bishops had to make public statement?
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #246 on: July 19, 2017, 01:51:10 PM »


And now she knows that the advice she received from Sr. Vassa concerning him was flawed at best, dangerous at worst, and in contradiction to the Faith of the Orthodox Church as a whole and Sr. Vassa's jurisdiction in particular as articulated by her Synod.





I am going to go with, no she probably doesn't know...since the mother is likely still not Orthodox and probably not nearly as absorbed as the InternetDox are with this....

What makes you say that?  Especially the bolded bit?  I know that if a controversy in the Church cropped up around my family, I'd be at least marginally aware of it.


unless i am grossly mistaken in my remembering, the mother in question was Byzantine Catholic.

That's right!  I'd forgotten!  That said, she's likely one of those Byzantine Catholics who believe that their church and the Orthodox share the same Faith and spirituality, or she probably wouldn't have written to Sr. Vassa in the first place, so the Synod's advice should carry at least as much weight for her as the advice of a nun under that Synod.


oh...not arguing whether she would -value- their opinion.....just assuming that she isn't checking the synod website...and also isn't nearly as tuned in as the internetDox.....

i.e. my comment was strictly on the 'now at least the mother knows....' part
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #247 on: July 19, 2017, 01:54:18 PM »
Are you suggesting that gays can't be saved?

Is validating anyone's sin a means of leading them to salvation?

How would you handle your kid being gay and getting married to a person of the same sex and starting a family? Will you hurl insults at them or cut them out of your life?

Are the only options you see the above or validating and embracing their sin?
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #248 on: July 19, 2017, 01:57:24 PM »


And now she knows that the advice she received from Sr. Vassa concerning him was flawed at best, dangerous at worst, and in contradiction to the Faith of the Orthodox Church as a whole and Sr. Vassa's jurisdiction in particular as articulated by her Synod.





I am going to go with, no she probably doesn't know...since the mother is likely still not Orthodox and probably not nearly as absorbed as the InternetDox are with this....

What makes you say that?  Especially the bolded bit?  I know that if a controversy in the Church cropped up around my family, I'd be at least marginally aware of it.


unless i am grossly mistaken in my remembering, the mother in question was Byzantine Catholic.

That's right!  I'd forgotten!  That said, she's likely one of those Byzantine Catholics who believe that their church and the Orthodox share the same Faith and spirituality, or she probably wouldn't have written to Sr. Vassa in the first place, so the Synod's advice should carry at least as much weight for her as the advice of a nun under that Synod.


oh...not arguing whether she would -value- their opinion.....just assuming that she isn't checking the synod website...and also isn't nearly as tuned in as the internetDox.....

i.e. my comment was strictly on the 'now at least the mother knows....' part

That's fair.  So maybe I should've said, "If she's checking in, at least the mother knows..."?  My point is, this all took place in the public sphere, so it was prudent and necessary for the Synod to issue a public correction of a wrongheaded theological opinion by a monastic under their jurisdiction.  I do hope that the correction reached the mother and that she is not operating under the delusion that Sr. Vassa's advice was helpful and healthy.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #249 on: July 19, 2017, 01:57:58 PM »
Wouldn't Sr. Vassa's superior be the one who should respond?
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #250 on: July 19, 2017, 01:58:59 PM »
So what exactly did Mothet Vassa say wrong? She wrote basically that dating and having sex with people of same sex is a sin and that there are problems with heterosexuality too. This is so scandalous that ROCOR bishops had to make public statement?

The Synod's statement made it clear exactly which elements of her public statement were off base.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 02:03:56 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #251 on: July 19, 2017, 02:04:30 PM »
Wouldn't Sr. Vassa's superior be the one who should respond?

As Porter asked repeatedly in the other thread: "Who is her superior"?  ;D
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #252 on: July 19, 2017, 02:05:14 PM »
And yet her son is still gay ...

Probably not, since he's just a 14-year-old kid. But maybe. But the good news here, which Sr. Vassa overlooked, is that he's still a human being and can be saved. Glory to God.

I am hoping that by 14 you knew your own sexuality.

Gosh, no.

Quote
Many kids are sexually active in that ballpark.

God forbid. However, let's put your fantasies aside and look at the specific case. The child here only thinks he's gay; he has no sexual experience.

Quote
Are you suggesting that gays can't be saved?

As this Synod so ably illuminates, it is Sr. Vassa's thinking that suggests someone with homosexual desires cannot be saved. Salvation persists thru life and extends throughout experience, yes, even to the body. If it did not, it wouldn't be real rescue and preservation, but the kind of impotent legalism that mocks Evangelicals who were "born again" that one day 31 years ago and now trapped in discontents and impelled to invent alternate gospels, e.g., the Prosperity Gospel.

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How would you handle your kid being gay and getting married to a person of the same sex and starting a family?

If you would not wish on my children death, why do you wish on them the death of their genetic lines? as well as of much of their personal purpose.

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Will you hurl insults at them or cut them out of your life?

Is that how you treat someone who is suffering? But what I would do is certainly assure them that there is always hope in Christ who is mighty to save.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #253 on: July 19, 2017, 02:05:45 PM »
Wouldn't Sr. Vassa's superior be the one who should respond?

As Porter asked repeatedly in the other thread: "Whoere is her superior"?  ;D
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Alpo

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #254 on: July 19, 2017, 02:06:38 PM »
So what exactly did Mothet Vassa say wrong? She wrote basically that dating and having sex with people of same sex is a sin and that there are problems with heterosexuality too. This is so scandalous that ROCOR bishops had to make public statement?

The Synod's statement made it clear exactly which element's of her public statement were off base.

I did read the statement and still don't understand. I personally disagree with Mother Vassa's* opinion that homosexuality is pre-determined by biology but IMO it's a bit overkill to a synod to handle a minor issue like this. Otherwise I don't see what would be anyhow controversial with her text.

*Why does everyone keeps addressing her as sister? AFAIK at least in Finland nuns are addressed as mothers.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #255 on: July 19, 2017, 02:07:04 PM »
I'm guessing, since she doesn't belong to a monastery, her only superior would be a bishop.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #256 on: July 19, 2017, 02:08:09 PM »
I'm guessing, since she doesn't belong to a monastery, her only superior would be a bishop.

How can this be? This is not the Orthodox tradition.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #257 on: July 19, 2017, 02:09:09 PM »
I'm guessing, since she doesn't belong to a monastery, her only superior would be a bishop.

How can this be? This is not the Orthodox tradition.


Neither is the internet....
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #258 on: July 19, 2017, 02:09:17 PM »
*Why does everyone keeps addressing her as sister? AFAIK at least in Finland nuns are addressed as mothers.

This is interesting. I've never heard anyone States-side using "mother," and if someone did I'd assume he meant an abbess.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #259 on: July 19, 2017, 02:10:16 PM »
I'm guessing, since she doesn't belong to a monastery, her only superior would be a bishop.

How can this be? This is not the Orthodox tradition.


Neither is the internet....

Sts. Basil, Antony, Macarius, Benedict, etc., etc. gave instructions for remote communications?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 02:11:00 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #260 on: July 19, 2017, 02:10:57 PM »
Wouldn't Sr. Vassa's superior be the one who should respond?

As Porter asked repeatedly in the other thread: "Whoere is her superior"?  ;D

An important distinction.  I stand corrected!
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #261 on: July 19, 2017, 02:14:45 PM »
I did read the statement and still don't understand. I personally disagree with Mother Vassa's* opinion that homosexuality is pre-determined by biology but IMO it's a bit overkill to a synod to handle a minor issue like this. Otherwise I don't see what would be anyhow controversial with her text.

I don't know how to explain the problems with her Christian anthropology and her perception of what homosexuality is any more clearly than the Synod has already done.  What statements of theirs in the vein specifically are you finding hard to impenetrable?

*Why does everyone keeps addressing her as sister? AFAIK at least in Finland nuns are addressed as mothers.

Around here, Mother means an abbess.  Sister is a simple nun.  Besides, she bills herself as Sister Vassa.  The title of her program, for instance, was Coffee with Sister Vassa.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #262 on: July 19, 2017, 02:16:07 PM »
Just as the holy gospel enjoins , some of these bishops must be hating themselves !
She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #263 on: July 19, 2017, 02:16:45 PM »
I'm guessing, since she doesn't belong to a monastery, her only superior would be a bishop.

How can this be? This is not the Orthodox tradition.


Neither is the internet....

So what we have here is a monastic internet celebrity without a monastery?  Did she ever belong to a women's monastery before returning to the world?  If not, in the Coptic Church, we would describe such a person as a celibate servant, not a monastic.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #264 on: July 19, 2017, 02:17:14 PM »
from http://www.synod.com/synod/engdocuments/enart_srvassaorthodoxy.html:



Dr Sr Vassa Larin, a ROCOR nun of the Diocese of Berlin and Germany, is a University Assistant teaching Liturgical Studies (Liturgiewissenschaft) at the University of Vienna in Austria. She is a founding member of the Society of Oriental Liturgy and a candidate for membership of the North American Academy of Liturgy. Unknown documents discovered by Sr Vassa in the State Archive of the Russian Federation and the Archives of the ROCOR Synod of Bishops in 2002 have played a significant role in reconstructing the genuine historical past of the Russian Church Abroad. A result of her research, an article on “oikonomia” is among the most popular articles posted on www.rocorstudies.org. We are delighted to introduce Sr Vassa to our readers and to dedicate this interview to the area of her expertise - liturgics.

-Please tell us about your background and explain why you decided to study theology.

-I was born and raised in the ROCOR, more specifically in the family of a ROCOR priest in Nyack, NY. When I was a novice living in a small monastic community in Munich, it was Archbishop Mark of Berlin and Germany who sent me, along with several other monastics of his diocese, to study theology at the Institute for Orthodox Theology of the University of Munich. His reason for doing this was simple: our diocese needed certified teachers of Orthodox Theology for our parish schools, and we happened to have an Orthodox Institute in Munich. Since higher education in Germany was then free, Vladyka decided to take advantage of this. His decision shocked me at the time, because it never entered my mind that I as an American could study at a German university.
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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #265 on: July 19, 2017, 02:18:36 PM »
I'm guessing, since she doesn't belong to a monastery, her only superior would be a bishop.

How can this be? This is not the Orthodox tradition.


Neither is the internet....

So what we have here is a monastic internet celebrity without a monastery?  Did she ever belong to a women's monastery before returning to the world?  If not, in the Coptic Church, we would describe such a person as a celibate servant, not a monastic.


She did....she was in a monastery from the age of 19 to whenver it was that Bishop Mark in Germany sent her to seminary....and since I do not know her current living arrangements.....for all we all know...she could return to a monastery each night to sleep....after she teaches
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #266 on: July 19, 2017, 02:19:19 PM »
Just as the holy gospel enjoins , some of these bishops must be hating themselves !

You're implying that some of the ROCOR bishops are secretly gay and therefore hypocrites?  I don't think that's accurate.  If some of them do have those desires, who is to say that they are not living a life of repentance struggling every day to conquer them.  No, I don't think this is a good illustration of hypocrisy at all.  A better definition would be, say, an atheist who thinks he knows what is best for the Orthodox Church.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #267 on: July 19, 2017, 02:21:28 PM »
Thanks for the info, Denise.  I didn't feel like googling.  :)
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #268 on: July 19, 2017, 02:22:22 PM »
I'm guessing, since she doesn't belong to a monastery, her only superior would be a bishop.

How can this be? This is not the Orthodox tradition.

There are lots of monks that don't belong to monasteries. Including the bishops.
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Re: Coffee with (Removed - Ancient Faith Radio)
« Reply #269 on: July 19, 2017, 02:23:50 PM »
I'm guessing, since she doesn't belong to a monastery, her only superior would be a bishop.

How can this be? This is not the Orthodox tradition.

There are lots of monks that don't belong to monasteries. Including the bishops.

Including GOA bishops. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).