Author Topic: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic  (Read 23032 times)

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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #90 on: July 08, 2017, 04:49:25 PM »
You cannot fulfill Sunday obligation going to an Orthodox liturgy.
You certainly can if there are no Catholic Churches around, unlike a Protestant service.
I do not think that this is correct, see e.g. http://jimmyakin.com/2005/03/orthodox_liturg-2.html
A Catholic may go to an Orthodox liturgy for private edification, prayer or whatever. But this has nothing to do with Sunday obligation.
Certainly an average SSPX priest would also not advise it.

So you are SSPX?
Nope.
Sanctus Deus, Sanctus fortis, Sanctus immortalis, miserere nobis.

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #91 on: July 08, 2017, 04:59:36 PM »
To all those who are suggesting Anthony attends a Roman Catholic or Eastern Catholic service, please note what he wrote in the OP, especially what is in bold font:

Quote
When I was living in Minnesota, USA I was baptized in Lutheran church (ELCA) at the age of 17. When I moved to Canada the Lutheran church is very far away from the place I lived. In that time I didn't know much about the difference between ELCA and Roman Catholic church. So I received my confirmation in RC.

However, after a few months I encountered some verbal and spiritual abuses in RC. It caused me a lot of pain.

In the year of 2006 I discovered the Eastern Orthodoxy. First time I was in Orthodox church I felt home. In Orthodoxy church I experience God's super natural love that Catholic and Protestant church don't have. However, because I have received confirmation in RC before. According to RC, a Catholic who left the Catholic church and become Orthodox Christian that is mean refuse to summit to the Pope. Which is a mortal sin, and can go to hell for that.

So I decided to go to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic church. However, I find out it is very difficult to follow the Eastern spirituality and still be in full communion with Rome. I found out UGCC is very Latinized. Therefore I continue to travel East and attended the Orthodox church more frequent.

Finally in January 2012, I received Chrismation in Eastern Orthodox Church and became Orthodox Christian, in Waterloo Ontario, Canada.

Anthony is a member of the Orthodox church. He is no longer under the RC rule of Sunday Obligation.
Okay. In his earlier posts, his profile said RC faith which he now changed to "confused Christian", I think. Also he wrote he was going to SSPX masses which is not exactly Orthodox. The whole story is a bit strange.

I said when I was age of 18 I received confirmation in Roman Catholic Church. However, when I was 26 years old I received Chrismation in Eastern Orthodox Church. However, last month I contacted SSPX priests to receive communion. However, right now I am confused now. So currently I am not in communion with either RC or EO now.
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #92 on: July 08, 2017, 05:04:45 PM »
You cannot fulfill Sunday obligation going to an Orthodox liturgy.
You certainly can if there are no Catholic Churches around, unlike a Protestant service.
I do not think that this is correct, see e.g. http://jimmyakin.com/2005/03/orthodox_liturg-2.html
A Catholic may go to an Orthodox liturgy for private edification, prayer or whatever. But this has nothing to do with Sunday obligation.
Certainly an average SSPX priest would also not advise it.

So you are SSPX?
Nope.

SSPX priests even against Novus Ordo Mass. They said when there are no Tridentine Latin Mass you should stay home to read the Sunday Mass Missal.
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #93 on: July 08, 2017, 05:06:26 PM »
To all those who are suggesting Anthony attends a Roman Catholic or Eastern Catholic service, please note what he wrote in the OP, especially what is in bold font:

Quote
When I was living in Minnesota, USA I was baptized in Lutheran church (ELCA) at the age of 17. When I moved to Canada the Lutheran church is very far away from the place I lived. In that time I didn't know much about the difference between ELCA and Roman Catholic church. So I received my confirmation in RC.

However, after a few months I encountered some verbal and spiritual abuses in RC. It caused me a lot of pain.

In the year of 2006 I discovered the Eastern Orthodoxy. First time I was in Orthodox church I felt home. In Orthodoxy church I experience God's super natural love that Catholic and Protestant church don't have. However, because I have received confirmation in RC before. According to RC, a Catholic who left the Catholic church and become Orthodox Christian that is mean refuse to summit to the Pope. Which is a mortal sin, and can go to hell for that.

So I decided to go to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic church. However, I find out it is very difficult to follow the Eastern spirituality and still be in full communion with Rome. I found out UGCC is very Latinized. Therefore I continue to travel East and attended the Orthodox church more frequent.

Finally in January 2012, I received Chrismation in Eastern Orthodox Church and became Orthodox Christian, in Waterloo Ontario, Canada.

Anthony is a member of the Orthodox church. He is no longer under the RC rule of Sunday Obligation.
Okay. In his earlier posts, his profile said RC faith which he now changed to "confused Christian", I think. Also he wrote he was going to SSPX masses which is not exactly Orthodox. The whole story is a bit strange.

I said when I was age of 18 I received confirmation in Roman Catholic Church. However, when I was 26 years old I received Chrismation in Eastern Orthodox Church. However, last month I contacted SSPX priests to receive communion. However, right now I am confused now. So currently I am not in communion with either RC or EO now.

When I was deciding between EO and OO, I did so based on pragmatism. I suggest you first study what it is you need to know, and then just make a decision.
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #94 on: July 08, 2017, 05:10:00 PM »
You cannot fulfill Sunday obligation going to an Orthodox liturgy.
You certainly can if there are no Catholic Churches around, unlike a Protestant service.
I do not think that this is correct, see e.g. http://jimmyakin.com/2005/03/orthodox_liturg-2.html
A Catholic may go to an Orthodox liturgy for private edification, prayer or whatever. But this has nothing to do with Sunday obligation.
Certainly an average SSPX priest would also not advise it.

So you are SSPX?
Nope.

And he's not. So why are you recommending SSPX polemical positions in the thread?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #95 on: July 08, 2017, 05:34:13 PM »
I have nothing against OO.
However, I prefer to pray in Byzantine way. Especially, I prefer the Byzantine Slavic tradition.

From 2006-2011, I thought I was called by God to be an "Orthodox Christian in communion with Rome". To be fully Orthodox and be in communion with Rome at the same time.
However, It was very stressful for me. I noticed there are many doctrinal difference between Orthodox Church and Roman Catholic church.
When I was going to Greek Catholic Parish, I had to constantly persuade myself that the EO and RC are the same faith but just difference expression of faith.
However, it was very difficult for me to do this type of mental exercise all the time.

I think it is impossible to be an "Orthodox Christian in Communion with Rome".


O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #96 on: July 08, 2017, 05:40:45 PM »
I have nothing against OO.
However, I prefer to pray in Byzantine way. Especially, I prefer the Byzantine Slavic tradition.

From 2006-2011, I thought I was called by God to be an "Orthodox Christian in communion with Rome". To be fully Orthodox and be in communion with Rome at the same time.
However, It was very stressful for me. I noticed there are many doctrinal difference between Orthodox Church and Roman Catholic church.
When I was going to Greek Catholic Parish, I had to constantly persuade myself that the EO and RC are the same faith but just difference expression of faith.
However, it was very difficult for me to do this type of mental exercise all the time.

I think it is impossible to be an "Orthodox Christian in Communion with Rome".

Well, yes, it is a large problem, much larger than you or me.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #97 on: July 08, 2017, 05:45:12 PM »
I received my Chrismation into the Eastern Orthodox church back in 2012

However, by reading and watching the propaganda from"Traditional Catholics" like SSPX and sedevacantists I began to have the psychological fear of eternal damnation. So I contacted the SSPX to be in communion with them.

However, I think it is quite scary. If God wants me to revert back to Roman Catholic Church. Then why the first things pop into my mind is contact the priest from SSPX. The Canonically irregular group inside the Roman Catholic Church.
If God wants me to revert back to RC, then he will lead me to contact the Diocesan priests or priests from religious orders that have the regular Canonical status.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 05:46:18 PM by Anthony1986 »
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #98 on: July 08, 2017, 06:37:13 PM »
Beware the group that has the closest familiarity with damnation.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #99 on: July 08, 2017, 07:02:31 PM »
I have nothing against OO.
However, I prefer to pray in Byzantine way. Especially, I prefer the Byzantine Slavic tradition.

From 2006-2011, I thought I was called by God to be an "Orthodox Christian in communion with Rome". To be fully Orthodox and be in communion with Rome at the same time.
However, It was very stressful for me. I noticed there are many doctrinal difference between Orthodox Church and Roman Catholic church.
When I was going to Greek Catholic Parish, I had to constantly persuade myself that the EO and RC are the same faith but just difference expression of faith.
However, it was very difficult for me to do this type of mental exercise all the time.

I think it is impossible to be an "Orthodox Christian in Communion with Rome".

I agree. It's impossible. So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not. Also, you have to ask whether the Orthodox Church is the Mystical Body of Christ or not. Personally, there's simply no way I can accept that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ at this point. Sure, I understand why people might be Roman Catholics, but I personally cannot bring myself to believe it.
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #100 on: July 08, 2017, 07:26:03 PM »
So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not.

I don't think this is true. In fact, I know it isn't true, as I know millions of Catholics don't think this way, including friends of mine. There is much, much more to the apostolic faith than feuds over leadership and legitimacy.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #101 on: July 08, 2017, 08:52:01 PM »
So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not.

I don't think this is true. In fact, I know it isn't true, as I know millions of Catholics don't think this way, including friends of mine. There is much, much more to the apostolic faith than feuds over leadership and legitimacy.

Okay. If that's what you think, why do you think that? I think that's the whole matter involved. There is much more to religion and spirituality than what I have deduced, but regarding ecclesiology, I can't think of any way that this might be different.

The Mystical Body of Christ: Rome or Orthodoxy?

That seems to be the question at hand. Religion and spirituality is more than this question, but that's not what the OP is asking.
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #102 on: July 08, 2017, 09:02:52 PM »
So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not.

I don't think this is true. In fact, I know it isn't true, as I know millions of Catholics don't think this way, including friends of mine. There is much, much more to the apostolic faith than feuds over leadership and legitimacy.

Okay. If that's what you think, why do you think that? I think that's the whole matter involved. There is much more to religion and spirituality than what I have deduced, but regarding ecclesiology, I can't think of any way that this might be different.

The Mystical Body of Christ: Rome or Orthodoxy?

That seems to be the question at hand. Religion and spirituality is more than this question, but that's not what the OP is asking.

Clever. You can't just pretend you never said "accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #103 on: July 08, 2017, 09:55:47 PM »
So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not.

I don't think this is true. In fact, I know it isn't true, as I know millions of Catholics don't think this way, including friends of mine. There is much, much more to the apostolic faith than feuds over leadership and legitimacy.

Okay. If that's what you think, why do you think that? I think that's the whole matter involved. There is much more to religion and spirituality than what I have deduced, but regarding ecclesiology, I can't think of any way that this might be different.

The Mystical Body of Christ: Rome or Orthodoxy?

That seems to be the question at hand. Religion and spirituality is more than this question, but that's not what the OP is asking.

Clever. You can't just pretend you never said "accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ."


Those claims are interrelated.
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #104 on: July 08, 2017, 10:39:56 PM »
So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not.

I don't think this is true. In fact, I know it isn't true, as I know millions of Catholics don't think this way, including friends of mine. There is much, much more to the apostolic faith than feuds over leadership and legitimacy.

Okay. If that's what you think, why do you think that? I think that's the whole matter involved. There is much more to religion and spirituality than what I have deduced, but regarding ecclesiology, I can't think of any way that this might be different.

The Mystical Body of Christ: Rome or Orthodoxy?

That seems to be the question at hand. Religion and spirituality is more than this question, but that's not what the OP is asking.

Clever. You can't just pretend you never said "accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ."


Those claims are interrelated.

Precisely.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #105 on: July 09, 2017, 03:49:34 AM »
You cannot fulfill Sunday obligation going to an Orthodox liturgy.
You certainly can if there are no Catholic Churches around, unlike a Protestant service.
I do not think that this is correct, see e.g. http://jimmyakin.com/2005/03/orthodox_liturg-2.html
A Catholic may go to an Orthodox liturgy for private edification, prayer or whatever. But this has nothing to do with Sunday obligation.
Certainly an average SSPX priest would also not advise it.

So you are SSPX?
Nope.

And he's not. So why are you recommending SSPX polemical positions in the thread?
That's not true. At no time I was recommending "SSPX polemical positions" (whatever that is) in this thread. I just provided a link dealing with Sunday obligation regulations and recommended to go to another traditional community for mass. That's all. Now, you you could think about why the OP had the sudden idea to contact a SSPX priest!
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 03:53:50 AM by Lepanto »
Sanctus Deus, Sanctus fortis, Sanctus immortalis, miserere nobis.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #106 on: July 09, 2017, 03:56:52 AM »
That's not true. At no time I was recommending "SSPX polemical positions" (whatever that is) in this thread. I just provided a link dealing with Sunday obligation regulations and recommended to go to another traditional community for mass. That's all. Now, you you could think about why the OP had the sudden idea to contact a SSPX priest!

You cannot fulfill Sunday obligation going to an Orthodox liturgy.
You certainly can if there are no Catholic Churches around, unlike a Protestant service.
I do not think that this is correct, see e.g. http://jimmyakin.com/2005/03/orthodox_liturg-2.html
A Catholic may go to an Orthodox liturgy for private edification, prayer or whatever. But this has nothing to do with Sunday obligation.
Certainly an average SSPX priest would also not advise it.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #107 on: July 09, 2017, 06:30:53 AM »
That's not true. At no time I was recommending "SSPX polemical positions" (whatever that is) in this thread. I just provided a link dealing with Sunday obligation regulations and recommended to go to another traditional community for mass. That's all. Now, you you could think about why the OP had the sudden idea to contact a SSPX priest!

You cannot fulfill Sunday obligation going to an Orthodox liturgy.
You certainly can if there are no Catholic Churches around, unlike a Protestant service.
I do not think that this is correct, see e.g. http://jimmyakin.com/2005/03/orthodox_liturg-2.html
A Catholic may go to an Orthodox liturgy for private edification, prayer or whatever. But this has nothing to do with Sunday obligation.
Certainly an average SSPX priest would also not advise it.
I fail to see how this is polemical. Also, it is a classic SSPX conviction to not go to Novus Ordo masses, let alone schismatic liturgy.
Sanctus Deus, Sanctus fortis, Sanctus immortalis, miserere nobis.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #108 on: July 09, 2017, 01:04:28 PM »
So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not.

I don't think this is true. In fact, I know it isn't true, as I know millions of Catholics don't think this way, including friends of mine. There is much, much more to the apostolic faith than feuds over leadership and legitimacy.

I can't say whether or not millions of Catholics do not "accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ", but I do know that, at the end of the day, definite submission to Rome, however nominal, is a sine qua non of Catholicism even for those millions of Catholics, and that submission is based on a theology of the Pope as, among other things, "Vicar of Christ". 

You don't need to be a theologian to do theological things.  Submission to Rome is a theological thing. 
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #109 on: July 09, 2017, 01:05:23 PM »
That's not true. At no time I was recommending "SSPX polemical positions" (whatever that is) in this thread. I just provided a link dealing with Sunday obligation regulations and recommended to go to another traditional community for mass. That's all. Now, you you could think about why the OP had the sudden idea to contact a SSPX priest!

You cannot fulfill Sunday obligation going to an Orthodox liturgy.
You certainly can if there are no Catholic Churches around, unlike a Protestant service.
I do not think that this is correct, see e.g. http://jimmyakin.com/2005/03/orthodox_liturg-2.html
A Catholic may go to an Orthodox liturgy for private edification, prayer or whatever. But this has nothing to do with Sunday obligation.
Certainly an average SSPX priest would also not advise it.

That's standard RC teaching and practice.  If the SSPX accepts that, it doesn't become polemical. 
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #110 on: July 09, 2017, 03:54:51 PM »
So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not.

I don't think this is true. In fact, I know it isn't true, as I know millions of Catholics don't think this way, including friends of mine. There is much, much more to the apostolic faith than feuds over leadership and legitimacy.

I can't say whether or not millions of Catholics do not "accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ", but I do know that, at the end of the day, definite submission to Rome, however nominal, is a sine qua non of Catholicism even for those millions of Catholics, and that submission is based on a theology of the Pope as, among other things, "Vicar of Christ". 

You don't need to be a theologian to do theological things.  Submission to Rome is a theological thing.

Many people abide in Rome for the same reasons we remain in our faith. The cult of personality around the Pope gets a lot of attention, but many Catholics just want to be Christians. Personally, I think reducing a church to dogma on which she differs from other churches is fairly artificial and unhelpful. Analytical thinking doesn't do that much of what's necessary to feed the nous.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #111 on: July 10, 2017, 02:08:46 AM »
So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not.

I don't think this is true. In fact, I know it isn't true, as I know millions of Catholics don't think this way, including friends of mine. There is much, much more to the apostolic faith than feuds over leadership and legitimacy.

Agree, leadership is not the problem, infact as christians we are called to obey God appointed authority, and respect our elders.

Here is where the problem come, i personally cant see the vatican church as inspired, i see it as earthly schoolman philosiphizing about things, so how am i supposed to trust people who dress up like bishops, but act and speak like secular people ? Furthurmore wild groups like sspx and sedes remind me too much of protestantism, nothing inspired about them, just scholastic legalism and pharaseic prelest.

In orthodoxy, i have seen people, just by looking at them my heart gets filled with bliss and heavenly joy for no apperent reason, so i ask myself in my mind, is this person a heavenly angel?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 02:09:39 AM by Vanhyo »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #112 on: July 10, 2017, 02:13:30 AM »
So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not.

I don't think this is true. In fact, I know it isn't true, as I know millions of Catholics don't think this way, including friends of mine. There is much, much more to the apostolic faith than feuds over leadership and legitimacy.

Agree, leadership is not the problem, infact as christians we are called to obey God appointed authority, and respect our elders.

Here is where the problem come, i personally cant see the vatican church as inspired, i see it as earthly schoolman philosiphizing about things, so how am i supposed to trust people who dress up like bishops, but act and speak like secular people ? Furthurmore wild groups like sspx and sedes remind me too much of protestantism, nothing inspired about them, just scholastic legalism and pharaseic prelest.

In orthodoxy, i have seen people, just by looking at them my heart gets filled with bliss and heavenly joy for no apperent reason, so i ask myself in my mind, is this person a heavenly angel?

Personal and deep. I like it. Thank you for sharing.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #113 on: July 10, 2017, 02:34:15 AM »
So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not.

I don't think this is true. In fact, I know it isn't true, as I know millions of Catholics don't think this way, including friends of mine. There is much, much more to the apostolic faith than feuds over leadership and legitimacy.

I can't say whether or not millions of Catholics do not "accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ", but I do know that, at the end of the day, definite submission to Rome, however nominal, is a sine qua non of Catholicism even for those millions of Catholics, and that submission is based on a theology of the Pope as, among other things, "Vicar of Christ". 

You don't need to be a theologian to do theological things.  Submission to Rome is a theological thing.

Many people abide in Rome for the same reasons we remain in our faith. The cult of personality around the Pope gets a lot of attention, but many Catholics just want to be Christians. Personally, I think reducing a church to dogma on which she differs from other churches is fairly artificial and unhelpful. Analytical thinking doesn't do that much of what's necessary to feed the nous.
Wisdom. One of the best posts I have read here.
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Offline PJ26

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #114 on: July 10, 2017, 07:43:01 AM »
"Many people abide in Rome for the same reasons we remain in our faith. The cult of personality around the Pope gets a lot of attention, but many Catholics just want to be Christians. Personally, I think reducing a church to dogma on which she differs from other churches is fairly artificial and unhelpful. Analytical thinking doesn't do that much of what's necessary to feed the nous."

That sounds really good but it ignores the fact that Catholicism has made dogmatic statements regarding the papacy including at the the last two supposedly ecumenical councils which are infallible and binding on the faithful to the point where denying them results in one being anethamatized.  Those Catholics who just want to be Christians have an obligation to know what their religion teaches and if they reject those teachings they really should think long and hard about whether or not Catholicism is the true faith after all.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #115 on: July 10, 2017, 10:37:28 AM »
"Many people abide in Rome for the same reasons we remain in our faith. The cult of personality around the Pope gets a lot of attention, but many Catholics just want to be Christians. Personally, I think reducing a church to dogma on which she differs from other churches is fairly artificial and unhelpful. Analytical thinking doesn't do that much of what's necessary to feed the nous."

That sounds really good but it ignores the fact that Catholicism has made dogmatic statements regarding the papacy including at the the last two supposedly ecumenical councils which are infallible and binding on the faithful to the point where denying them results in one being anethamatized.  Those Catholics who just want to be Christians have an obligation to know what their religion teaches and if they reject those teachings they really should think long and hard about whether or not Catholicism is the true faith after all.

I think Porter's point is not that everything is a-ok in the world of Catholic dogma but that, in the lived reality for many Catholics, these official pronouncements are not the bread and butter. In the areas of central importance for them they have a lot of commonality with us. Wagging our fingers at them and saying, "You should know better" isn't necessarily the best place to start in approaching them. Generally speaking, the objection "But your books say x!" can obscure more than illuminate in engaging with any religious community.

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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #116 on: July 10, 2017, 10:48:17 AM »
"Many people abide in Rome for the same reasons we remain in our faith. The cult of personality around the Pope gets a lot of attention, but many Catholics just want to be Christians. Personally, I think reducing a church to dogma on which she differs from other churches is fairly artificial and unhelpful. Analytical thinking doesn't do that much of what's necessary to feed the nous."

That sounds really good but it ignores the fact that Catholicism has made dogmatic statements regarding the papacy including at the the last two supposedly ecumenical councils which are infallible and binding on the faithful to the point where denying them results in one being anethamatized.  Those Catholics who just want to be Christians have an obligation to know what their religion teaches and if they reject those teachings they really should think long and hard about whether or not Catholicism is the true faith after all.

I think Porter's point is not that everything is a-ok in the world of Catholic dogma but that, in the lived reality for many Catholics, these official pronouncements are not the bread and butter. In the areas of central importance for them they have a lot of commonality with us. Wagging our fingers at them and saying, "You should know better" isn't necessarily the best place to start in approaching them. Generally speaking, the objection "But your books say x!" can obscure more than illuminate in engaging with any religious community.
Yes. While of course PJ26 is right that there are dogmatic statements about the papacy which are binding for a Catholic,
those are not central to our faith.

The Nicene creed is.
Holy mass is.
Trying to keep HIS commandments is.

Honestly, I do not think about the bishop of Rome for weeks at all, unless someone in some forum comments on AL,
infallibility or similar, or he is in the news. In a normal Catholic´s spiritual life, it does not play any role.
Sanctus Deus, Sanctus fortis, Sanctus immortalis, miserere nobis.

Offline PJ26

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #117 on: July 10, 2017, 11:01:32 AM »
You don't consider dogmatic statements which are binding for Catholics central to your faith?  :o Why make dogmatic statements to begin with then and say they're binding if each individual is free to pick and choose what they will and will not accept?  What's the point?

Can I be Catholic, I mean really Catholic in substance, not just going to mass on Sunday and self-identifying as a Catholic, if I reject something like papal infallibility?  Catholicism itself doesn't think so because you're anathematized if you do.

I understand the idea that maybe the papacy isn't central to how each Catholic lives out their daily lives, but that doesn't exonerate them from their obligation to know what their religion believes and teaches.  Everyone should know what their particular religion believes and teaches and if there is a teaching or teachings that your particular religion says are dogmatic, binding, divinely inspired and you after sufficient prayer and reflection say, "nope, that's wrong."  You really need to consider if you are in the right place...

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #118 on: July 10, 2017, 11:17:17 AM »
You don't consider dogmatic statements which are binding for Catholics central to your faith?  :o Why make dogmatic statements to begin with then and say they're binding if each individual is free to pick and choose what they will and will not accept?  What's the point?

This is just polemics on your part.
Of course, papal primacy is not the most central thing in the faith.
Yes, it is important and binding, but for example, it is not mentioned in the creed or
in an average Sunday mass.
At no point I was saying that an individual was free to pick and choose as desired.
I just want to stress the fact that the Catholic church does not define itself primarily through dogmatic statements
about papal primacy - though others try to make it appear so - but as the una sancta catholica et apostolica ecclesia, some 2000 years old.

I understand the idea that maybe the papacy isn't central to how each Catholic lives out their daily lives, but that doesn't exonerate them from their obligation to know what their religion believes and teaches.  Everyone should know what their particular religion believes and teaches and if there is a teaching or teachings that your particular religion says are dogmatic, binding, divinely inspired and you after sufficient prayer and reflection say, "nope, that's wrong."  You really need to consider if you are in the right place...
I am sorry that the successor of Peter proved a stumbling block for you personally.  Intellectually, I am ready to admit that the extent of papal primacy and infallibility is a more challenging
tenet for me, too. But again, as you say, it is not as if you can pick and choose what you like/dislike. It is binary, one must make a decision.
Sanctus Deus, Sanctus fortis, Sanctus immortalis, miserere nobis.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #119 on: July 10, 2017, 11:23:36 AM »
So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not.

I don't think this is true. In fact, I know it isn't true, as I know millions of Catholics don't think this way, including friends of mine. There is much, much more to the apostolic faith than feuds over leadership and legitimacy.

I can't say whether or not millions of Catholics do not "accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ", but I do know that, at the end of the day, definite submission to Rome, however nominal, is a sine qua non of Catholicism even for those millions of Catholics, and that submission is based on a theology of the Pope as, among other things, "Vicar of Christ". 

You don't need to be a theologian to do theological things.  Submission to Rome is a theological thing.

Many people abide in Rome for the same reasons we remain in our faith. The cult of personality around the Pope gets a lot of attention, but many Catholics just want to be Christians. Personally, I think reducing a church to dogma on which she differs from other churches is fairly artificial and unhelpful. Analytical thinking doesn't do that much of what's necessary to feed the nous.

But I'm not talking about analytical thinking about dogmatic formulae.  The very attachment Catholics have to the Pope (not this Pope or that Pope, not "cult of personality", but "the Pope" as "Holy Father") is something that goes beyond doctrinal formulae but at the same time is rooted in them.  It's not for nothing that the papacy is often the biggest hurdle converts from RC to Orthodoxy have to overcome.  It's not just a matter of dealing with Pastor Aeternus, it's an entire conception of what it means for the Church to be Church--dogmatic but also sociocultural, popular, "spiritual", etc.
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Offline PJ26

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #120 on: July 10, 2017, 11:30:00 AM »
@ Lepanto

No. I'm sorry but no.  It's not polemics.  Dogma is dogma.  Trying to say X dogma is more important than Y dogma is, in the end, useless.  If I deny the Creed, I'm not Catholic.  If I deny papal infallibility, I'm not Catholic.  That's it.  The fact that the Son is of the same substance as the Father does not affect my daily decision making any more than whether or not the Theotokos was immaculately conceived.  But I'm required to believe the first just as much as I am required to believe the second.  Those are the rules Catholicism itself has established.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #121 on: July 10, 2017, 11:36:40 AM »
@ Lepanto

No. I'm sorry but no.  It's not polemics.  Dogma is dogma.  Trying to say X dogma is more important than Y dogma is, in the end, useless.  If I deny the Creed, I'm not Catholic.  If I deny papal infallibility, I'm not Catholic.  That's it.

No. It is a sin, but it does not make you non-Catholic. The sacrament of baptism changes you irreversibly, Character indelebilis.
We do not let you go as easy as that, this is not church teaching.
Sanctus Deus, Sanctus fortis, Sanctus immortalis, miserere nobis.

Offline PJ26

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #122 on: July 10, 2017, 11:43:10 AM »
Regarding papal infallibility, Pastor Aeternus clearly anathematizes the individual Catholic who rejects the teaching.  How do you define "anathematize?"  Here's one definition:

"a formal curse by a pope or a council of the Church, excommunicating a person or denouncing a doctrine"

So, are Martin Luther and Henry VIII still Catholic for you based on their Catholic baptism?

Offline ConfusedRC

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #123 on: July 10, 2017, 12:16:27 PM »
To the OP:

I just want you to know that I'm praying for you. As you can see from my forum name, I was once RC. I went down a similar path: went to Novus Ordo Masses, then to Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) at parish churches, then to an SSPX parish, and finally to an independent sedevacantist parish.

It sounds like you want to be EO, but you are worried about what the RC teaches about leaving the church. I sometimes get the same way, but then I remember that they are in error.
I am no longer a "confused Roman Catholic" as I joined the Orthodox Church in April 2016.

Offline servulus

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #124 on: July 10, 2017, 12:53:58 PM »
Once you reject papal infallibility it becomes a pretty central thing to the Catholic faith. The Catholic Church makes too great a claim to let it go lightly. It's hard to go about going to mass and living your faith when the whole church crumbles on this one point. As long as you believe it, it's not a big deal. Imagine if you stopped believing that the priest has the ability to absolve, would you still be able to go to confession?

I stayed until it seemed ridiculous to me. If the Pope were to lead billions to hell with false teachings, spread all error, and turn the church into the largest force against anything good, the gates of hell will still not have prevailed so long as he didn't speak infallibly. Any heresy the Pope spouts is quickly pointed out as only being intended for a certain audience so that it is not considered intended for the universal church. If he were to intend it universally, then it would be dismissed as not having the proper wording. There is always a way out. So why did God bother to grant infallibility as a protection when it doesn't protect?

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #125 on: July 10, 2017, 12:58:19 PM »
Once you reject papal infallibility it becomes a pretty central thing to the Catholic faith. The Catholic Church makes too great a claim to let it go lightly. It's hard to go about going to mass and living your faith when the whole church crumbles on this one point

Since the doctrine has been "clarified" and backpedaled to the point that it is meaningless, I'm not sure it really could be held to have such a central place. At this point not even Catholic traditionalists seem to actually believe in Papal infallibility as it was defined at Vatican I.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #126 on: July 10, 2017, 01:03:36 PM »
So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not.

I don't think this is true. In fact, I know it isn't true, as I know millions of Catholics don't think this way, including friends of mine. There is much, much more to the apostolic faith than feuds over leadership and legitimacy.

I can't say whether or not millions of Catholics do not "accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ", but I do know that, at the end of the day, definite submission to Rome, however nominal, is a sine qua non of Catholicism even for those millions of Catholics, and that submission is based on a theology of the Pope as, among other things, "Vicar of Christ". 

You don't need to be a theologian to do theological things.  Submission to Rome is a theological thing.

Many people abide in Rome for the same reasons we remain in our faith. The cult of personality around the Pope gets a lot of attention, but many Catholics just want to be Christians. Personally, I think reducing a church to dogma on which she differs from other churches is fairly artificial and unhelpful. Analytical thinking doesn't do that much of what's necessary to feed the nous.

But I'm not talking about analytical thinking about dogmatic formulae.  The very attachment Catholics have to the Pope (not this Pope or that Pope, not "cult of personality", but "the Pope" as "Holy Father") is something that goes beyond doctrinal formulae but at the same time is rooted in them.  It's not for nothing that the papacy is often the biggest hurdle converts from RC to Orthodoxy have to overcome.  It's not just a matter of dealing with Pastor Aeternus, it's an entire conception of what it means for the Church to be Church--dogmatic but also sociocultural, popular, "spiritual", etc.

This is true.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #127 on: July 10, 2017, 01:05:49 PM »
You don't consider dogmatic statements which are binding for Catholics central to your faith?  :o Why make dogmatic statements to begin with then and say they're binding if each individual is free to pick and choose what they will and will not accept?  What's the point?

This is just polemics on your part.
Of course, papal primacy is not the most central thing in the faith.
Yes, it is important and binding, but for example, it is not mentioned in the creed or
in an average Sunday mass.
At no point I was saying that an individual was free to pick and choose as desired.
I just want to stress the fact that the Catholic church does not define itself primarily through dogmatic statements
about papal primacy - though others try to make it appear so - but as the una sancta catholica et apostolica ecclesia, some 2000 years old.

I understand the idea that maybe the papacy isn't central to how each Catholic lives out their daily lives, but that doesn't exonerate them from their obligation to know what their religion believes and teaches.  Everyone should know what their particular religion believes and teaches and if there is a teaching or teachings that your particular religion says are dogmatic, binding, divinely inspired and you after sufficient prayer and reflection say, "nope, that's wrong."  You really need to consider if you are in the right place...
I am sorry that the successor of Peter proved a stumbling block for you personally.  Intellectually, I am ready to admit that the extent of papal primacy and infallibility is a more challenging
tenet for me, too. But again, as you say, it is not as if you can pick and choose what you like/dislike. It is binary, one must make a decision.

::) Why not address the issues rather than lay on vague guilt?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Alpo

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #128 on: July 10, 2017, 01:07:19 PM »
Once you reject papal infallibility it becomes a pretty central thing to the Catholic faith. The Catholic Church makes too great a claim to let it go lightly. It's hard to go about going to mass and living your faith when the whole church crumbles on this one point

Since the doctrine has been "clarified" and backpedaled to the point that it is meaningless, I'm not sure it really could be held to have such a central place. At this point not even Catholic traditionalists seem to actually believe in Papal infallibility as it was defined at Vatican I.

How so? The definition of Vatican I seems to be fairly restricted. The Vatican II and ordinary magisterium on the other hand is IIRC fairly all-inclusive.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 01:07:43 PM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #129 on: July 10, 2017, 01:15:17 PM »
Anytime the subject comes up, I see Catholics adding further qualifications, some of which directly contradict the Vatican I definition. For instance, the Pope must consult with the rest of the Church before decreeing anything, or the Pope cannot contradict ecumenical councils.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #130 on: July 10, 2017, 01:17:58 PM »
How so? The definition of Vatican I seems to be fairly restricted. ...

I think it's just such a terrible idea it could never be "restricted" or processed enough to make it a good one.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline PJ26

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #131 on: July 10, 2017, 01:52:19 PM »
"Anytime the subject comes up, I see Catholics adding further qualifications, some of which directly contradict the Vatican I definition."

But who are those Catholics and what authority do they have?  Vatican I, Pastor Aeternus, are crystal clear.  The teaching on papal infallibility is itself infallible and if you don't believe it you're anathema.  No one and no thing from a Catholic point of view, at least the official Catholic point of view, can change that.  How certain Catholics try to get around that teaching or justify ignoring it is really beside the point.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #132 on: July 10, 2017, 02:10:14 PM »
Regarding papal infallibility, Pastor Aeternus clearly anathematizes the individual Catholic who rejects the teaching.  How do you define "anathematize?"  Here's one definition:

"a formal curse by a pope or a council of the Church, excommunicating a person or denouncing a doctrine"

So, are Martin Luther and Henry VIII still Catholic for you based on their Catholic baptism?
Technically, yes. Excommunication cannot erase the baptism mark. Please read up what excommunication really means. Neither Dr. Luther nor Henry VIII ceased to be Christians.
Sanctus Deus, Sanctus fortis, Sanctus immortalis, miserere nobis.

Offline PJ26

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #133 on: July 10, 2017, 02:10:48 PM »
Just for fun here are quotes from the Code of Canon Law straight off the Vatican's website:

Can. 750 §1. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacredmagisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them.

§2. Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firm-ly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholicfaith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

Can. 752 Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it.

Can. 753 Although the bishops who are in communion with the head and members of the college, whether individually or joined together in conferences of bishops or in particular councils, do not possess infallibility in teaching, they are authentic teachers and instructors of the faith for the Christian faithful entrusted to their care; the Christian faithful are bound to adhere with religious submission of mind to the authentic magisterium of their bishops.

Can. 754 All the Christian faithful are obliged to observe the constitutions and decrees which the legitimate authority of the Church issues in order to propose doctrine and to proscribe erroneous opinions, particularly those which the Roman Pontiff or the college of bishops puts forth.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P2H.HTM

While all of this is relevant to the present discussion, I think the definition of heresy is especially so:

"Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith"

If I am a Catholic and I reject the teaching of an ecumenical council, in this case Vatican I, a teaching which Catholicism says is divinely inspired and thus infallible - am I not a heretic according to this definition (@Lepanto or anyone else)?

Notice too, it's not just "obstinate denial" it's also "obstinate doubt."

Offline PJ26

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #134 on: July 10, 2017, 02:14:16 PM »
"Neither Dr. Luther nor Henry VIII ceased to be Christians."

I never said Martin Luther or Henry VIII ceased to be Christians.  You seemed to state that once Catholic always Catholic if one was baptized Catholic.  Both of these individuals were baptized Catholics and were subsequently excommunicated as heretics.  In your mind are they still Catholic?