Author Topic: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic  (Read 22579 times)

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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2017, 09:05:53 AM »
Yeah, that's really important to mention. Rome sided with fascism in the 20th century, Orthodoxy however, didn't 'side' with Communism more like was subverted by the State. As was basically any religious group in the Second World was at the time, I suppose.

Also, many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church always compromise to secular authorities like Byzantine Empire, Soviet Union, and communist governments in Eastern Europe.
The Roman Church added the Filioque to the Creed because Charlemagne wanted to be the sole Roman emperor and wanted to impugn the other Roman emperor in Constantinople by accusing him of heresy for failing to say the Creed with the Filioque.  And though popes resisted Charlemagne more or less successfully, the Germanic Holy Roman emperors continued putting pressure on popes until Pope Benedict V officially added the Filioque to the Creed.


And then we had the cases of the Roman Church siding with Franco in Spain, Mussolini in Italy, the military dictatorships in Latin America, etc.


Perhaps such choices, as poor as they seem from the 21st century, might have seemed the least bad at the time, for both the Roman and the Orthodox Churches.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 09:06:04 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2017, 09:10:31 AM »
The thing is so many Catholic apologists make the very strong claim about the papacy. Sometime they use a very aggressive tone. It is easy to believe papacy after watching those Catholic apologists video.
Most Catholic apologists in the US are converts from Protestantism.  I actually admire most Protestants for converting to Catholicism, especially if from studying doctrine, because they demonstrate a great love for God and the Truth, even at great psychological and social cost.  However, most unfortunately retain their Protestant lenses and way of argumentation, as it takes many years living the Catholic liturgical cycle to immerse in the Catholic language and approach.


In other words, though they are quick to accuse Protestants of proof texting Holy Scripture when discussing Roman Catholic doctrines with them, they are often guilty of the same sin, proof texting Patristic writings, when discussing with Orthodox.


For instance, it's just impossible to find any justification for papal supremacy in the Church Fathers, yet they frame patristic statements on papal primacy as such.  Buyer beware.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2017, 09:13:29 AM »
The difficult thing is some of my Spanish friends go to SSPX. It is difficult to tell them I am not comfortable with SSPX. But I will try to tell them.
Methinks that you might be surprised to find that you're not the only one.  ;)
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2017, 09:18:49 AM »
Also, if RC is wrong, EO and OO are right, then why there are more RC parishes in this planet? Why RC spread so fast?
Because the New World was discovered by Europeans in the 15th century and much of the world was colonized by European imperialism in the 17th century.  Also, since the 7th century Christians have been slaughtered by the scimitar.  Before then, the largest Christian bodies were Orthodox.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 09:31:23 AM by Sharbel »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2017, 09:19:57 AM »
The Novos Ordo RC parish just about 10 minutes drive from my parents' house. The Orthodox parishes are two hours away by train.
Such a long trip for Divine Liturgy could be difficult every Sunday, but should be possible once a month, yes?
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2017, 09:23:30 AM »
However, instead of listen to those apologists or reading the articles online. I think best idea is for me to study theology and church history seriously. In order to find out which one is the real apostolic church created by Christ.
THIS!

Paraphrasing Bl. John Newman, to study Church history of the first millennium is to cease to be Roman Catholic.  ;)


I recommend that you study the Eastern theology on original sin and compare it with how Catholic theology approaches it.  This might be bring you psychological peace about the East.
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Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2017, 09:24:40 AM »
The Novos Ordo RC parish just about 10 minutes drive from my parents' house. The Orthodox parishes are two hours away by train.
Such a long trip for Divine Liturgy could be difficult every Sunday, but should be possible once a month, yes?

I think is I believe Orthodox is a true church I will go to Divine Liturgy every Sunday. Because I really don't feel peace in the Novos Ordo RC parish.
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2017, 09:25:21 AM »
I read some articles from Catholic Answers, they provide many quotes from the Church Fathers to prove the papacy. That is why I am very confuse.
As I said above, wherever you read apologists quote the Fathers to support papal supremacy, think of papal primacy, which the Orthodox Churches hold.  It'll help to clear any confusion.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2017, 09:27:11 AM »
I think is I believe Orthodox is a true church I will go to Divine Liturgy every Sunday. Because I really don't feel peace in the Novos Ordo RC parish.
Though you don't need to go church every Sunday, for a while once a month might be all that you could do.  With time, you might want to move closer to the Orthodox church, if only to be not 2 but 1h away.
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2017, 09:29:49 AM »
Check your sources. Almost none of the Papal quotes are genuine, or are provided a genuine interpretation. I've read and re-read Steven Ray's book, among other books and lists of Papal quotes, and they're almost always distorted in some way.

Many Roman Catholics that that the Roman Catholic Church has doctrine development. That the Holy Spirit is guiding the Roman Catholic Church to move forward. Some said because lack of central authority in Eastern Orthodox Church, so there is no doctrine development in Eastern Orthodox Church.

Also, many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church always compromise to secular authorities like Byzantine Empire, Soviet Union, and communist governments in Eastern Europe.

Any responses from Orthodox Christians?

Doctrinal development is a bad thing, not a good thing. It sullies the tradition and purity of the faith. The Church is the guardian of tradition, not the main lead developer of tradition.

As a "traditional" Catholic (how I dislike the pleonasm), I am all with you in principle.
However, it is not so easy to exactly define what qualifies as doctrinal development or change of tradition.
A few questions to illustrate this:

When did the church start to celebrate Christmas?
Was it a not allowed change back then?

When did the church introduce liturgy in church Slavonic?
Was it an unwarranted reformation back then?

It was a long way from the resurrection to the Nicene creed -
would the apostles have put it exactly the same way as in the creed, if asked?

A lot more questions could be asked.

So there definitely has been a lot of change since Pentecost almost 2000 years ago.
It is not as if Orthodoxy had been "frozen" back then and not changed a single bit till today.
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Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #55 on: July 06, 2017, 09:33:00 AM »
I think my problem is I have been "Sunday Christian" for past few months. Only practice my Christian faith on Sunday. So just some stupid videos from youtube destroyed my faith and lead me into confusion.

However it is really scary. The first thing pop into my mind is to contact the SSPX priest not the Orthodox priests or the Catholic priests from Archdiocese of Madrid.

I don't think it is from God.

Right now no more stupid videos. No more SSPX, sedevacantist, Miachel Voris this type of crazy videos.
St. Ignatius of Loyola left the Churches his masterpiece, the "Discernment of Spirits".  You can tell where a feeling or a thought come from by its fruits.  If the fruit is of peace or joy, then the source is from the Good Spirit; if the fruit is of restlessness or sadness, then the source is from the evil spirit.  Also, never make a change of life or of plans when restless or sad.

This past two weeks are so terrible for me. I went to Catholic priests for confession 4 time already but still can not find peace. Sometime I go to weekday Mass 2 times a day and still very stressful. I pray in front of Blessed Sacrament a lot. Bust I just can not have peace. I am very anxious.
I can not focus on my school work. I can't sleep well.
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2017, 09:41:37 AM »

Some of my RC friends they argue that Orthodox church does not have central authority. Every bishops have a voice so there are some confusion in Orthodox church.

Is the RC exempt from confusion?  Ever heard of the Protestant Reformation?  Somehow the OC seem to be immune to it.

In our present lifetimes, we are witnessing Pope Francis confusing the faithful and bishops adopting conflicting practices.  So it doesn't seem that central authority is an antidote to human failings.
Quote

Also, so many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church does not have a Pope so there are no additional councils after Seven Ecumenical Council.

Why should there be?  The first few councils happened in relatively rapid succession, but then tapered down as the most important doctrines had been understood by the absolute majority of Christians.  So one has to wonder if councils should happen as often as they did in the past.

Finally, what the RC calls Ecumenical Councils were mostly local councils or just synods in their deliberations and conclusions.
Quote
RCs said  there are so many canonical territory problem because there is no Pope in Eastern Orthodox Church.

The same territorial issue is present with the overlapping canonical jurisdictions of the Latin and Eastern Catholic Churches.  However, it's no issue at all, for it does not affect the lives of the faithful or the authority of particular bishops.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 09:42:45 AM by Sharbel »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2017, 09:46:33 AM »
This past two weeks are so terrible for me. I went to Catholic priests for confession 4 time already but still can not find peace. Sometime I go to weekday Mass 2 times a day and still very stressful. I pray in front of Blessed Sacrament a lot. Bust I just can not have peace. I am very anxious.
I can not focus on my school work. I can't sleep well.
Perhaps you might consider taking a break.  Do go to Sunday Mass and pray the Our Father in the morning, at midday and in the evening.  Don't push yourself.  You belong to Christ already, you don't need to prove Him that and should just find comfort in it.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2017, 09:48:13 AM »
As a "traditional" Catholic (how I dislike the pleonasm), I am all with you in principle.
However, it is not so easy to exactly define what qualifies as doctrinal development or change of tradition.
I agree, but methinks that most of these examples are not matters of doctrine, and none of doctrinal development.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 09:49:11 AM by Sharbel »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2017, 09:52:31 AM »
Check your sources. Almost none of the Papal quotes are genuine, or are provided a genuine interpretation. I've read and re-read Steven Ray's book, among other books and lists of Papal quotes, and they're almost always distorted in some way.

Many Roman Catholics that that the Roman Catholic Church has doctrine development. That the Holy Spirit is guiding the Roman Catholic Church to move forward. Some said because lack of central authority in Eastern Orthodox Church, so there is no doctrine development in Eastern Orthodox Church.

Also, many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church always compromise to secular authorities like Byzantine Empire, Soviet Union, and communist governments in Eastern Europe.

Any responses from Orthodox Christians?

Doctrinal development is a bad thing, not a good thing. It sullies the tradition and purity of the faith. The Church is the guardian of tradition, not the main lead developer of tradition.

As a "traditional" Catholic (how I dislike the pleonasm), I am all with you in principle.
However, it is not so easy to exactly define what qualifies as doctrinal development or change of tradition.
A few questions to illustrate this:

When did the church start to celebrate Christmas?
Was it a not allowed change back then?

When did the church introduce liturgy in church Slavonic?
Was it an unwarranted reformation back then?

It was a long way from the resurrection to the Nicene creed -
would the apostles have put it exactly the same way as in the creed, if asked?

A lot more questions could be asked.

So there definitely has been a lot of change since Pentecost almost 2000 years ago.
It is not as if Orthodoxy had been "frozen" back then and not changed a single bit till today.

Which is the difference between organic development, true to Church tradition and history, and contrived development, which is not.
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Offline Faithseeker

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2017, 10:15:00 AM »
Peace in your heart can only be found when you follow Christ. I live 30 minutes from my parish but my disability prevents me from attending Liturgy every Sunday. I go once a month.  I email and Skype with my priest. 

You went to the same Orthodox parish in Canada as I attend. 

The peace in your heart will not come from people,  it will come from Christ.  Pray, read the Scriptures daily - the daily Gospel reading,  the Psalms,  the daily Epistle.

Don't try to pack a lot of "stuff" into your spiritual life.  Keep it slow and easy. 

The RCC has many councils as they try to "fit into the secular world." But Christ said we live IN the world,  we are not OF the world.  We must always remember His teachings.  Go back to the Sermon on the Mount -  if nothing else,  it provides the complete basics of our faith.

Those who support the papacy will always have "proof-texts" for what they believe.

At the Day of Judgment,  will you stand before the Bishop of Rome to be judged or in front of Christ? The answer is there.  So that helps us understand Who is infallible and Who has the "last word." It's not going to be any bishop on earth,  no matter how holy a life he may have led.

We can pick apart the Great Schism and try to explain "which side separated" - Catholics will say Orthodox,  Orthodox will say Catholic.  Historically speaking, the Bishop of Rome began the separation from the "main church" and ultimately over time,  more things were added to "his power" and declared infallible.

We can discuss the differences between EO, OO and RC - but in the end,  there's one importance - Christ. He's the only one with authority,  the ultimate, infallible authority. 

Your heart appears to be connected to the early Church - before all the "politics" came in - that is the Orthodox Church. The "politics" were ironed out during the Ecumenical Councils. Not to fit the world's point of view but to show us where the world was wrong and keep us on a steady path.  The RC Church never did this - it BECAME the political power so much so that it led to unspeakable bloodshed all in the name of Christ.

Didn't Christ condemn bloodshed and teach people to be humble,  to know they are not perfect,  to know they don't have all the answers?  Only God has the answer. When we start depending on humans to provide us answers,  we are taking a step away from Christ.

Listen to Him - read or listen to the Scriptures. The writings of the Church Fathers help us understand how to live as Christians in a world of non-Christians by explaining the Gospel and encouraging us to follow Christ.

Prayer can be said anywhere,  anytime. If you can attend Liturgy once a month,  go once a month.  Pray the Typica when you can't attend Liturgy. God understands.  It comes from the heart and it gives peace to the heart and the only peace we can have is the peace that God provides.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2017, 10:15:10 AM »
Check your sources. Almost none of the Papal quotes are genuine, or are provided a genuine interpretation. I've read and re-read Steven Ray's book, among other books and lists of Papal quotes, and they're almost always distorted in some way.

Many Roman Catholics that that the Roman Catholic Church has doctrine development. That the Holy Spirit is guiding the Roman Catholic Church to move forward. Some said because lack of central authority in Eastern Orthodox Church, so there is no doctrine development in Eastern Orthodox Church.

Also, many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church always compromise to secular authorities like Byzantine Empire, Soviet Union, and communist governments in Eastern Europe.

Any responses from Orthodox Christians?

Doctrinal development is a bad thing, not a good thing. It sullies the tradition and purity of the faith. The Church is the guardian of tradition, not the main lead developer of tradition.

As a "traditional" Catholic (how I dislike the pleonasm), I am all with you in principle.
However, it is not so easy to exactly define what qualifies as doctrinal development or change of tradition.
A few questions to illustrate this:

When did the church start to celebrate Christmas?
Was it a not allowed change back then?

When did the church introduce liturgy in church Slavonic?
Was it an unwarranted reformation back then?

It was a long way from the resurrection to the Nicene creed -
would the apostles have put it exactly the same way as in the creed, if asked?

A lot more questions could be asked.

So there definitely has been a lot of change since Pentecost almost 2000 years ago.
It is not as if Orthodoxy had been "frozen" back then and not changed a single bit till today.

Which is the difference between organic development, true to Church tradition and history, and contrived development, which is not.

Exactly. Now you admit the existence of some diffuse concept of "organic development".
Who determines what is organic and what not?
The pope?  ;)
An ecumenical council which has not been held in centuries?
Sanctus Deus, Sanctus fortis, Sanctus immortalis, miserere nobis.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2017, 10:22:46 AM »
Check your sources. Almost none of the Papal quotes are genuine, or are provided a genuine interpretation. I've read and re-read Steven Ray's book, among other books and lists of Papal quotes, and they're almost always distorted in some way.

Many Roman Catholics that that the Roman Catholic Church has doctrine development. That the Holy Spirit is guiding the Roman Catholic Church to move forward. Some said because lack of central authority in Eastern Orthodox Church, so there is no doctrine development in Eastern Orthodox Church.

Also, many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church always compromise to secular authorities like Byzantine Empire, Soviet Union, and communist governments in Eastern Europe.

Any responses from Orthodox Christians?

Doctrinal development is a bad thing, not a good thing. It sullies the tradition and purity of the faith. The Church is the guardian of tradition, not the main lead developer of tradition.

As a "traditional" Catholic (how I dislike the pleonasm), I am all with you in principle.
However, it is not so easy to exactly define what qualifies as doctrinal development or change of tradition.
A few questions to illustrate this:

When did the church start to celebrate Christmas?
Was it a not allowed change back then?

When did the church introduce liturgy in church Slavonic?
Was it an unwarranted reformation back then?

It was a long way from the resurrection to the Nicene creed -
would the apostles have put it exactly the same way as in the creed, if asked?

A lot more questions could be asked.

So there definitely has been a lot of change since Pentecost almost 2000 years ago.
It is not as if Orthodoxy had been "frozen" back then and not changed a single bit till today.

Which is the difference between organic development, true to Church tradition and history, and contrived development, which is not.

Exactly. Now you admit the existence of some diffuse concept of "organic development".
Who determines what is organic and what not?
The pope?  ;)
An ecumenical council which has not been held in centuries?

If you read the Church Fathers, or the Scriptures, they answer your question for you.
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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2017, 10:28:17 AM »
Oh, that clears it up.
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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2017, 10:35:15 AM »
Do you have an EO or OO nearby?  Go there.

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #65 on: July 06, 2017, 10:38:08 AM »
Check your sources. Almost none of the Papal quotes are genuine, or are provided a genuine interpretation. I've read and re-read Steven Ray's book, among other books and lists of Papal quotes, and they're almost always distorted in some way.

Many Roman Catholics that that the Roman Catholic Church has doctrine development. That the Holy Spirit is guiding the Roman Catholic Church to move forward. Some said because lack of central authority in Eastern Orthodox Church, so there is no doctrine development in Eastern Orthodox Church.

Also, many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church always compromise to secular authorities like Byzantine Empire, Soviet Union, and communist governments in Eastern Europe.

Any responses from Orthodox Christians?

Doctrinal development is a bad thing, not a good thing. It sullies the tradition and purity of the faith. The Church is the guardian of tradition, not the main lead developer of tradition.

As a "traditional" Catholic (how I dislike the pleonasm), I am all with you in principle.
However, it is not so easy to exactly define what qualifies as doctrinal development or change of tradition.
A few questions to illustrate this:

When did the church start to celebrate Christmas?
Was it a not allowed change back then?

When did the church introduce liturgy in church Slavonic?
Was it an unwarranted reformation back then?

It was a long way from the resurrection to the Nicene creed -
would the apostles have put it exactly the same way as in the creed, if asked?

A lot more questions could be asked.

So there definitely has been a lot of change since Pentecost almost 2000 years ago.
It is not as if Orthodoxy had been "frozen" back then and not changed a single bit till today.

Which is the difference between organic development, true to Church tradition and history, and contrived development, which is not.

Exactly. Now you admit the existence of some diffuse concept of "organic development".
Who determines what is organic and what not?
The pope?  ;)
An ecumenical council which has not been held in centuries?

If you read the Church Fathers, or the Scriptures, they answer your question for you.

Oh yes... I see this discussion is in vain. Not that I want to argue against Church Fathers, of course.
The OP should just remember that this is an Orthodox forum and most writers are orthodox and biased.
Of course, I am not saying that I am necessarily objective in this matter.

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #66 on: July 06, 2017, 10:46:07 AM »
^Any human (except for the Lord) that has existed on earth is biased; therefore, your point is irrelevant.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2017, 10:50:01 AM »
^Any human (except for the Lord) that has existed on earth is biased; therefore, your point is irrelevant.
The Orthodox-Catholic discussion is definitely difficult. The best advice already has been given to the OP:
Study Church Fathers, study church history - the RC church need not at all have to fear a fair and (as far as this is possible for humans) unbiased comparison.
Furthermore pray and do not worry every second about eternal damnation.
Sanctus Deus, Sanctus fortis, Sanctus immortalis, miserere nobis.

Offline AlioshaKaramazov

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2017, 11:03:01 AM »
Hello Anthony! Talking from personal experience, I think you should be wary of Internet apologetics regarding the Papacy. It's a very difficult topic that requires a lot of reading. You can start by checking some of the bibliography in this thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71557.0.html
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 11:03:18 AM by AlioshaKaramazov »

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #69 on: July 06, 2017, 11:13:10 AM »
^Any human (except for the Lord) that has existed on earth is biased; therefore, your point is irrelevant.
The Orthodox-Catholic discussion is definitely difficult. The best advice already has been given to the OP:
Study Church Fathers, study church history - the RC church need not at all have to fear a fair and (as far as this is possible for humans) unbiased comparison.
Furthermore pray and do not worry every second about eternal damnation.

The thing is it is very difficult for people who are making the decision about going to RC or EO/OO.
I would like to hear the opinions from Roman Catholic also.
I don't think it is an easy path for people who are seeking the true faith.
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #70 on: July 06, 2017, 11:19:08 AM »
^Any human (except for the Lord) that has existed on earth is biased; therefore, your point is irrelevant.
The Orthodox-Catholic discussion is definitely difficult. The best advice already has been given to the OP:
Study Church Fathers, study church history - the RC church need not at all have to fear a fair and (as far as this is possible for humans) unbiased comparison.
Furthermore pray and do not worry every second about eternal damnation.


Hieromonk Gabriel Bunge took at about 50 years of pray and study. Finally decide to move further East. It is definitely not an easy path for most of people. 
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #71 on: July 06, 2017, 11:21:22 AM »
Hello Anthony! Talking from personal experience, I think you should be wary of Internet apologetics regarding the Papacy. It's a very difficult topic that requires a lot of reading. You can start by checking some of the bibliography in this thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71557.0.html

Muchas Gracias! Thank you!
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Agabus

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #72 on: July 06, 2017, 11:28:52 AM »
Check your sources. Almost none of the Papal quotes are genuine, or are provided a genuine interpretation. I've read and re-read Steven Ray's book, among other books and lists of Papal quotes, and they're almost always distorted in some way.

Many Roman Catholics that that the Roman Catholic Church has doctrine development. That the Holy Spirit is guiding the Roman Catholic Church to move forward. Some said because lack of central authority in Eastern Orthodox Church, so there is no doctrine development in Eastern Orthodox Church.

Also, many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church always compromise to secular authorities like Byzantine Empire, Soviet Union, and communist governments in Eastern Europe.

Any responses from Orthodox Christians?

Doctrinal development is a bad thing, not a good thing. It sullies the tradition and purity of the faith. The Church is the guardian of tradition, not the main lead developer of tradition.

As a "traditional" Catholic (how I dislike the pleonasm), I am all with you in principle.
However, it is not so easy to exactly define what qualifies as doctrinal development or change of tradition.
A few questions to illustrate this:

When did the church start to celebrate Christmas?
Was it a not allowed change back then?

When did the church introduce liturgy in church Slavonic?
Was it an unwarranted reformation back then?
Not unimportant questions, but not doctrinal as per doctrinal development.

Quote
It was a long way from the resurrection to the Nicene creed -
would the apostles have put it exactly the same way as in the creed, if asked?
Herein is where your case can be made.


Quote
So there definitely has been a lot of change since Pentecost almost 2000 years ago.
It is not as if Orthodoxy had been "frozen" back then and not changed a single bit till today.

Some are willing to acknowledge this.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #73 on: July 06, 2017, 11:48:26 AM »
Quote
The question I have is if RC is wrong. Then only EO and OO left for use to choice.

Then which one is the right church EO or OO???
I can give you few quick examples why EO christology is the correct one, but in privet massaging if you are interested.
Quote
Also, if RC is wrong, EO and OO are right, then why there are more RC parishes in this planet? Why RC spread so fast?
+
Quote
Every where you go there are RC parishes. In my native country Taiwan there are only two Eastern Orthodox parishes, however there are more RC parishes in Taiwan than EO.
See Luke 12:32
Quote
The Novos Ordo RC parish just about 10 minutes drive from my parents' house. The Orthodox parishes are two hours away by train.
Go to the Orthodox parish, its great merit to travel for 2 hours just so you can be at the right place.

Quote
Some of my RC friends they argue that Orthodox church does not have central authority. Every bishops have a voice so there are some confusion in Orthodox church.
Yes, we do have wolves in our own Church, but the true shepherds speak unanimously, without knowing each other and harmoniously with the church fathers.

Quote
Also, so many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church does not have a Pope so there are no additional councils after Seven Ecumenical Council.
RCs said  there are so many canonical territory problem because there is no Pope in Eastern Orthodox Church.
Your friends are either ignorant or dishonest on purpose.
After the first seven general councils, our other councils are:

The Encyclical Letter of Saint Photius (867)
The First Letter of Michael Cerularius to Peter of Antioch (1054)
The decisions of ‘the Councils of Constantinople in 1341 and 1351 on the Hesychast Controversy
The Encyclical Letter of Saint Mark of Ephesus (1440-1441).
The Confession of Faith by Gennadius, Patriarch of Constantinople (1455-1456)
The Replies of Jeremias the Second to the Lutherans (1573-1581)
The Confession of Faith by Metrophanes Kritopoulos (1625)
The Orthodox Confession by Peter of Moghila, in its revised form (ratified by the Council of Jassy, 1642)
The Confession of Dositheus (ratified by the Council of Jerusalem, 1672)
The Answers of the Orthodox Patriarchs to the Non-Jurors (1718, 1723)
The Reply of the Orthodox Patriarchs to Pope Pius the Ninth (1848)
The Reply of the Synod of Constantinople to Pope Leo the Thirteenth (1895)

We had a bandit synod under freemason Meletius and another robber synod just recently Crete in 2016.

Quote
Many Roman Catholics that that the Roman Catholic Church has doctrine development. That the Holy Spirit is guiding the Roman Catholic Church to move forward. Some said because lack of central authority in Eastern Orthodox Church, so there is no doctrine development in Eastern Orthodox Church.
God is the same yesterday, today and forever, He doesn't change His opinion. The full revelation was given to the apostles at pentecost, the councils job is NOT to develop new doctrines but to protect the Church from innovations and people who preach another gospel, different than that of the apostles.
Quote
Also, many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church always compromise to secular authorities like Byzantine Empire, Soviet Union, and communist governments in Eastern Europe.
We have been under many yokes but we never changed our faith, unlike the vatican which is always innovating and changing.

Quote
@Sharbel: The Roman Church added the Filioque to the Creed because Charlemagne wanted to be the sole Roman emperor and wanted to impugn the other Roman emperor in Constantinople by accusing him of heresy for failing to say the Creed with the Filioque.  And though popes resisted Charlemagne more or less successfully, the Germanic Holy Roman emperors continued putting pressure on popes until Pope Benedict V officially added the Filioque to the Creed.
On the side note, you might find this interesting




« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 11:50:56 AM by Vanhyo »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #74 on: July 06, 2017, 04:37:26 PM »
The question I have is if RC is wrong. Then only EO and OO left for use to choice.

Then which one is the right church EO or OO???

Also, if RC is wrong, EO and OO are right, then why there are more RC parishes in this planet? Why RC spread so fast?

Every where you go there are RC parishes. In my native country Taiwan there are only two Eastern Orthodox parishes, however there are more RC parishes in Taiwan than EO.

In a subsequent post, you write:

If I just follow my heart, I will say that the Eastern Orthodoxy should be the place for me.

However, if based on psychological factors, I think I will be RC.

Maybe I don't know enough church history and theology. I am so easy to be convinced by the RC apologists.

However, instead of listen to those apologists or reading the articles online. I think best idea is for me to study theology and church history seriously. In order to find out which one is the real apostolic church created by Christ.


 

And I think that's your answer, along with prayer. 

My sense of Western Christianity is that it is a lot more comfortable with declaring that you need to believe X, Y, and Z or else you'll be damned to hell.  My impression with converts from RCism in particular is that they have to overcome a sort of theological PTSD in order to finally get to the point where they can seriously consider making a change. 

I'm not going to tell you that doctrine doesn't matter; it does.  But these things are not simple, and I think God understands our limitations.  I think it is possible to know the truth and to make good decisions, but if someone comes to a conclusion different from mine, it's not necessarily out of malice, and I think God can figure out how to deal with that. 

So I'd say the first thing to do is to try and learn how to love God and to believe and place your trust in the love he has for you.  Prayer is the place to start doing this. 

Then, trusting in God's love and aiming to order your life in a way pleasing to him, read the Scriptures, study Church history, theology, etc., and try to sort it out with God through prayer. 

Eventually, you'll have to make a choice because there's only so much you can learn from the outside.  So choose and try your best. 

If it's not for you, you'll come to realise that in a way you cannot ignore, and then maybe you can re-assess and try something else. 

Once, I found myself wrestling with which was correct--RC, EO, or OO.  I followed this advice and am at peace.  I hope and pray for the same for you. 

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #75 on: July 07, 2017, 10:50:08 AM »
What are the infallible sources in the Eastern Orthodox Church?

Holy Scripture and 7 Ecumenical councils?

What else???

Who has the authority to interpret the teaching of church???

For the Latin Church it is the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and Pope...

In the Eastern Orthodox Church will be each bishop to interprets the teaching of the church?
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #76 on: July 07, 2017, 11:38:13 AM »
What are the infallible sources in the Eastern Orthodox Church?

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Quote
Who has the authority to interpret the teaching of church???

The Church.  Usually, through the Orthodox episcopate. 

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #77 on: July 08, 2017, 04:00:23 AM »
What are the infallible sources in the Eastern Orthodox Church?

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Quote
Who has the authority to interpret the teaching of church???

The Church.  Usually, through the Orthodox episcopate.


Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, revealed to us through Holy Scripture and seven ecumenical councils.

Also, all the early church fathers' writing???
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #78 on: July 08, 2017, 04:02:50 AM »
By the way this Sunday, I am going to Divine Liturgy in Eastern Orthodox Church instead of Novos Ordo Mass or  Tridentine Latin Mass.
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #79 on: July 08, 2017, 05:26:08 AM »
By the way this Sunday, I am going to Divine Liturgy in Eastern Orthodox Church instead of Novos Ordo Mass or  Tridentine Latin Mass.
You know that as a Catholic, you have to observe Sunday obligation. Go to a Catholic mass and if you are interested, additionally visit a Divine Liturgy as an observer. You cannot fulfill Sunday obligation going to an Orthodox liturgy.
Sanctus Deus, Sanctus fortis, Sanctus immortalis, miserere nobis.

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #80 on: July 08, 2017, 06:39:36 AM »
By the way this Sunday, I am going to Divine Liturgy in Eastern Orthodox Church instead of Novos Ordo Mass or  Tridentine Latin Mass.
You know that as a Catholic, you have to observe Sunday obligation. Go to a Catholic mass and if you are interested, additionally visit a Divine Liturgy as an observer. You cannot fulfill Sunday obligation going to an Orthodox liturgy.

Maybe I will go to the Divine Liturgy on Sunday morning and the Novus Ordo Mass on Sunday or Saturday night only about half an hour.
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline youssef

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #81 on: July 08, 2017, 06:53:37 AM »
Try to go to a melkite liturgy. As they are chatolics by they use similar liturgy as orthodox.

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #82 on: July 08, 2017, 07:12:50 AM »
Try to go to a melkite liturgy. As they are chatolics by they use similar liturgy as orthodox.

You have for exemple the ukranian greek catholic church in Madrid.

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #83 on: July 08, 2017, 08:55:09 AM »
Try to go to a melkite liturgy. As they are chatolics by they use similar liturgy as orthodox.

You have for exemple the ukranian greek catholic church in Madrid.

 :D It is just about 10 minutes by metro from my residence.
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Alkis

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #84 on: July 08, 2017, 09:00:03 AM »
What are the infallible sources in the Eastern Orthodox Church?

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Quote
Who has the authority to interpret the teaching of church???

The Church.  Usually, through the Orthodox episcopate.


Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, revealed to us through Holy Scripture and seven ecumenical councils.

Also, all the early church fathers' writing???

In Orthodoxy there is not an infalible source. Only God is infallible and guides His Church to His truth through the Holy Spirit. A council can make mistake. A bishop can make mistake. A holy Father can also make mistake. We have a so rich Tradition. We follow what all the orthodox churches follow...
For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #85 on: July 08, 2017, 09:26:33 AM »
You cannot fulfill Sunday obligation going to an Orthodox liturgy.
You certainly can if there are no Catholic Churches around, unlike a Protestant service.
Sanctus Deus
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Offline LBK

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #86 on: July 08, 2017, 09:35:26 AM »
To all those who are suggesting Anthony attends a Roman Catholic or Eastern Catholic service, please note what he wrote in the OP, especially what is in bold font:

Quote
When I was living in Minnesota, USA I was baptized in Lutheran church (ELCA) at the age of 17. When I moved to Canada the Lutheran church is very far away from the place I lived. In that time I didn't know much about the difference between ELCA and Roman Catholic church. So I received my confirmation in RC.

However, after a few months I encountered some verbal and spiritual abuses in RC. It caused me a lot of pain.

In the year of 2006 I discovered the Eastern Orthodoxy. First time I was in Orthodox church I felt home. In Orthodoxy church I experience God's super natural love that Catholic and Protestant church don't have. However, because I have received confirmation in RC before. According to RC, a Catholic who left the Catholic church and become Orthodox Christian that is mean refuse to summit to the Pope. Which is a mortal sin, and can go to hell for that.

So I decided to go to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic church. However, I find out it is very difficult to follow the Eastern spirituality and still be in full communion with Rome. I found out UGCC is very Latinized. Therefore I continue to travel East and attended the Orthodox church more frequent.

Finally in January 2012, I received Chrismation in Eastern Orthodox Church and became Orthodox Christian, in Waterloo Ontario, Canada.

Anthony is a member of the Orthodox church. He is no longer under the RC rule of Sunday Obligation.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #87 on: July 08, 2017, 02:09:37 PM »
To all those who are suggesting Anthony attends a Roman Catholic or Eastern Catholic service, please note what he wrote in the OP, especially what is in bold font:

Quote
When I was living in Minnesota, USA I was baptized in Lutheran church (ELCA) at the age of 17. When I moved to Canada the Lutheran church is very far away from the place I lived. In that time I didn't know much about the difference between ELCA and Roman Catholic church. So I received my confirmation in RC.

However, after a few months I encountered some verbal and spiritual abuses in RC. It caused me a lot of pain.

In the year of 2006 I discovered the Eastern Orthodoxy. First time I was in Orthodox church I felt home. In Orthodoxy church I experience God's super natural love that Catholic and Protestant church don't have. However, because I have received confirmation in RC before. According to RC, a Catholic who left the Catholic church and become Orthodox Christian that is mean refuse to summit to the Pope. Which is a mortal sin, and can go to hell for that.

So I decided to go to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic church. However, I find out it is very difficult to follow the Eastern spirituality and still be in full communion with Rome. I found out UGCC is very Latinized. Therefore I continue to travel East and attended the Orthodox church more frequent.

Finally in January 2012, I received Chrismation in Eastern Orthodox Church and became Orthodox Christian, in Waterloo Ontario, Canada.

Anthony is a member of the Orthodox church. He is no longer under the RC rule of Sunday Obligation.
Okay. In his earlier posts, his profile said RC faith which he now changed to "confused Christian", I think. Also he wrote he was going to SSPX masses which is not exactly Orthodox. The whole story is a bit strange.
Sanctus Deus, Sanctus fortis, Sanctus immortalis, miserere nobis.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #88 on: July 08, 2017, 02:39:36 PM »
You cannot fulfill Sunday obligation going to an Orthodox liturgy.
You certainly can if there are no Catholic Churches around, unlike a Protestant service.
I do not think that this is correct, see e.g. http://jimmyakin.com/2005/03/orthodox_liturg-2.html
A Catholic may go to an Orthodox liturgy for private edification, prayer or whatever. But this has nothing to do with Sunday obligation.
Certainly an average SSPX priest would also not advise it.
Sanctus Deus, Sanctus fortis, Sanctus immortalis, miserere nobis.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #89 on: July 08, 2017, 02:54:53 PM »
You cannot fulfill Sunday obligation going to an Orthodox liturgy.
You certainly can if there are no Catholic Churches around, unlike a Protestant service.
I do not think that this is correct, see e.g. http://jimmyakin.com/2005/03/orthodox_liturg-2.html
A Catholic may go to an Orthodox liturgy for private edification, prayer or whatever. But this has nothing to do with Sunday obligation.
Certainly an average SSPX priest would also not advise it.

So you are SSPX?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 02:55:14 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy