Author Topic: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic  (Read 22762 times)

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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #360 on: July 26, 2017, 11:10:22 AM »
I also wonder how anybody can clearly be SSPX and reject Vatican II - although it is a hard pill to swallow, and even though it was called as a "Pastoral Council," there are clearly dogmatic declarations by the authority of the Pope which, according to Vatican I, are infallible - for those who read such documents.

Now as to whether or not there are contradictions or not in these declarations - and whether or not Pope Paul VI violated Quo Primum in his reform of the liturgy is a matter of debate.

Also, I find the basis on which the SSPX sees itself as canonical ("We are in an emergency situation in the Church due to liturgy and bad teachers, therefore, the authority of the Pope on us is null and void) very skeptical (Was the authority of the Pope null and void during iconoclasm in the Byzantine Empire, or even during the period of Arianism? Or even during the period of Pope John XXII in which he was denouncing the Beatific Vision publicly and oppressing those who disagreed with him?)

Vatican made very clear the SSPX need to accept Vatican II in order to have the regular canonical status.
Many conservative Catholic priests and lay people said SSPX is still in schism. They are not Catholic and outside the Catholic Church.

But one thing I don't understand is then why the Pope Francis still give SSPX the faculty of concession and witness the marriage?

SSPX priests and supporters think Vatican II is heresy.  But they have many secret talk with Rome all the time.
SSPX criticize post Vatican II Popes all the time. However, according to  Pastor aeternus no Catholics can judge the Pope. So how can SSPX priests and supporters point out that the Popes teach heresy?

There are some SSPX priests and supporters eventually become sedevacantists.

According to Roman Catholic Church outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. So the SSPX priests and supporters are outside the Catholic Church so they will all go to hell?
So that is mean, we all have to accept Vatican II even the Novus Ordo Mass, otherwise we will all end up in hell?
As long as Pope is not speaking in ex cathedra he can teach heresy, and no one can speak up against heresy? If someone point out the mistakes of Pope, that person is in schism and will go to hell for that? 
There are so many confusions in Roman Catholic Church now.

Only God can judge us - but if you are a member of the Roman Catholic Church, and you leave it to join the SSPX, it is a mortal sin of schism, according to the Roman Catholic Church.

The SSPX, when they were created, were granted canonical status, but they were excommunicated by John Paul II when they consecrated bishops illicitly.

For Roman Catholics, we have to accept what was declared infallible in Vatican II - not the entirety of it, but what was declared in it. For it is clear that there are ex-cathedra statements in Vatican II.

If accepting Vatican II was not a pre-requisite for being in communion with the Roman Catholic Church, why are they still not in communion?
Pope Francis, I thought, made it clear that they have to accept Vatican II as seen from a Traditionalist perspective - and then they can be canonical.
https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/pope-francis-sspx-must-accept-vatican-ii-and-the-new-mass

Also, Ecumenical Councils have judged popes as heretics (the Sixth Ecumenical Council), so there.

I think another thing to keep in mind - even though I think the whole idea of the Novus Ordo is abhorrent to me as a Catholic - many of the problems which have stemmed from the Novus Ordo Mass came after Vatican II, not during Vatican II.

Communion in the hand was lied to Pope Paul VI, which is why he permitted it but highly discouraged it - and the usage of lay-ministers is blasphemous as well, but this is disciplinary, not dogmatic. As well as the use of modern music, which was not permitted in Vatican II.
Facing the people in Mass was changed but I think this was an ecumenical intention rather than what was supposed to be the norm.

But nevertheless, the Mass is not an unchangeable infallible dogma, and it is merely disciplinary to a certain extent - so it is entirely possible that the Vatican is heretical and blasphemous with the new liturgy.


Even Pope Paul VI said Satan has entered the Synagogue in reference to the liturgical abuses.

As for the nature of the infallibility of the Pope, you touch on a part of Catholic dogma that hasn't been defined yet. Certainly in these limited instances the Pope speaks infallibly, but it seems that when he is not making a final declaration, he can speak heresy. Pope John XXII publicly taught that it is heresy to believe in the Beatific Vision.

I also wanted to point out that you should really look into Orthodoxy, because I personally think at this point in time that this whole crisis is really God's Punishment as a result of Vatican I, which pretty much cut off any attempt whatsoever at reconciliation between the Orthodox and the Catholic Church.

The movement for ecumenism and the child that is Vatican II occurred after Vatican I.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 11:10:57 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #361 on: July 26, 2017, 11:16:28 AM »
According to Rome, being the supporter of SSPX or member of Eastern Orthodox Church are all outside the Catholic Church and will end up in hell.
So that is mean I have to accept all the teaching of Vatican II, and Novos Ordo Mass otherwise I will end up in hell.

That's not what Rome teaches. That's what Sedes teach. Rome teaches you can be a non-Christian and be saved, under certain conditions. Pope Francis said even atheists can be saved.

Vatican II changed the historical teaching on salvation, and non-Christian religions.

No it didn't - although I believe the Orthodox Church is the True Church at this point in time, I don't think Vatican II changed the historical teaching on salvation.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/what-no-salvation-outside-the-church-means

Also, Pope Francis never said that atheists can get to heaven. He said in a sermon that atheists and Christians can both do God's work on earth, and it is better to be an atheist than a hypocritical Catholic, of which the media had jumped on it to suggest that atheists can get to heaven.

http://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=51077

I argue that Extra Ecclasiam Nulla Salus, as Kallistos Ware teaches it, is compatible with Roman Catholic dogma.

"Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. All the categorical strength and point of this aphorism lies in its tautology. Outside the Church there is no salvation, because salvation is the Church" (G. Florovsky, "Sobornost: the Catholicity of the Church", in The Church of God, p. 53). Does it therefore follow that anyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned? Of course not; still less does it follow that everyone who is visibly within the Church is necessarily saved. As Augustine wisely remarked: "How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!" (Homilies on John, 45, 12) While there is no division between a "visible" and an "invisible Church", yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense, we cannot always say."
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 11:19:30 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline ConfusedRC

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #362 on: July 26, 2017, 11:21:02 AM »
According to Rome, being the supporter of SSPX or member of Eastern Orthodox Church are all outside the Catholic Church and will end up in hell.
So that is mean I have to accept all the teaching of Vatican II, and Novos Ordo Mass otherwise I will end up in hell.

That's not what Rome teaches. That's what Sedes teach. Rome teaches you can be a non-Christian and be saved, under certain conditions. Pope Francis said even atheists can be saved.

Vatican II changed the historical teaching on salvation, and non-Christian religions.

But, the conditions for this to happen are almost impossible. I believe they call it "invincible ignorance." In the context of Catholicism, an atheist could only go to heaven if they had never been given the opportunity to learn about and convert to Christianity.
I am no longer a "confused Roman Catholic" as I joined the Orthodox Church in April 2016.

Offline servulus

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #363 on: July 26, 2017, 12:54:54 PM »
Rome doesn't consider the faithful of the saps to be outside the church. Rome has even given instructions on how the saps is to keep baptismal records of those it baptises. They have an irregular relationship.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #364 on: July 26, 2017, 11:23:38 PM »
As long as Pope is not speaking in ex cathedra he can teach heresy, and no one can speak up against heresy?
To me, this is the crux of the matter.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #365 on: July 26, 2017, 11:33:26 PM »
Also, Ecumenical Councils have judged popes as heretics (the Sixth Ecumenical Council), so there.
However, according to Catholicism, popes are the judges of ecumenical councils and, to the best of my knowledge, popes have decried the anathema against Pope Honorius I and have since refused to accept it.


PS: curiously, only after the Great Schism did popes dare to adopt the name Honorious, and the first one was an anti-pope.
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Offline servulus

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #366 on: July 27, 2017, 12:03:09 AM »
Rome doesn't consider the faithful of the saps to be outside the church. Rome has even given instructions on how the saps is to keep baptismal records of those it baptises. They have an irregular relationship.
Autocorrect changed sspx to saps. My laptop is broken and I'm not used to typing on my phone.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #367 on: July 27, 2017, 12:06:38 AM »
Rome doesn't consider the faithful of the saps to be outside the church. Rome has even given instructions on how the saps is to keep baptismal records of those it baptises. They have an irregular relationship.
Autocorrect changed sspx to saps. My laptop is broken and I'm not used to typing on my phone.

Disclaimer: I don't have a phone. 

Is there a way to deactivate autocorrect?  It seems to create more trouble than it's worth. 

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #368 on: July 27, 2017, 10:18:11 AM »
Just curious, if a person converted to Holy Orthodoxy than left the Orthodox Church, and become Roman Catholic  by he or her free will. Will this person lost the salvation?
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #369 on: July 27, 2017, 04:57:24 PM »
To leave Orthodoxy is a grave sin from the Orthodox Church's perspective,
and to leave the Catholic Church is a grave sin from the Catholic Church's perspective.

It's the same boat I'm stuck in.

I don't think salvation is a parlor trick, with God as an absolute machine - but we want to give God our best efforts in finding the Church, despite the wave of evil that has flooded both churches in different and similar ways.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 04:58:06 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #370 on: July 27, 2017, 05:07:55 PM »
Rome doesn't consider the faithful of the saps to be outside the church. Rome has even given instructions on how the saps is to keep baptismal records of those it baptises. They have an irregular relationship.
Autocorrect changed sspx to saps. My laptop is broken and I'm not used to typing on my phone.

Disclaimer: I don't have a phone.

How do you keep contact with people without a phone?
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #371 on: July 27, 2017, 09:41:50 PM »
Also, Ecumenical Councils have judged popes as heretics (the Sixth Ecumenical Council), so there.
However, according to Catholicism, popes are the judges of ecumenical councils and, to the best of my knowledge, popes have decried the anathema against Pope Honorius I and have since refused to accept it.


PS: curiously, only after the Great Schism did popes dare to adopt the name Honorious, and the first one was an anti-pope.
Can a Pope judge a previous Pope? Because one certainly tried:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod
The worst part is that this horrendous (pun fully intended!) incident happened in a Rome that was still nominally part of the Church.
Too many theologists, not enough theologians.

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #372 on: July 27, 2017, 11:13:10 PM »
Not to dismiss this discussion or any of the serious and not serious tangents attached to it, but I always kind of think it's funny that someone comes to OC.net and asks, "So, do you think I should be Orthodox? Or should I pursue this non-Orthodox option?"
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #373 on: July 28, 2017, 07:48:43 AM »
Also, Ecumenical Councils have judged popes as heretics (the Sixth Ecumenical Council), so there.
However, according to Catholicism, popes are the judges of ecumenical councils and, to the best of my knowledge, popes have decried the anathema against Pope Honorius I and have since refused to accept it.


PS: curiously, only after the Great Schism did popes dare to adopt the name Honorious, and the first one was an anti-pope.
Can a Pope judge a previous Pope? Because one certainly tried:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod
The worst part is that this horrendous (pun fully intended!) incident happened in a Rome that was still nominally part of the Church.

I think it is very strange. An infallible Pope judged the previous infallible Pope???
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline servulus

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #374 on: July 28, 2017, 08:46:59 AM »
Also, Ecumenical Councils have judged popes as heretics (the Sixth Ecumenical Council), so there.
However, according to Catholicism, popes are the judges of ecumenical councils and, to the best of my knowledge, popes have decried the anathema against Pope Honorius I and have since refused to accept it.


PS: curiously, only after the Great Schism did popes dare to adopt the name Honorious, and the first one was an anti-pope.
Can a Pope judge a previous Pope? Because one certainly tried:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod
The worst part is that this horrendous (pun fully intended!) incident happened in a Rome that was still nominally part of the Church.

I think it is very strange. An infallible Pope judged the previous infallible Pope???
When I was Catholic this bothered me. If a pope becomes a heretic he ceases to be pope. To be deemed a heretic he has to judeged, but he has no earthly superior so he can only be judged by another Pope. All Catholics are required to give assent to the popes teachings even if they aren't considered infallible. So, if a pope is teaching error you as a catholic are obligated to assent to error except that the catholic church teaches ( or at least used to) that error has no rights. It can be maddening. I'm glad I'm done with it.

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #375 on: July 28, 2017, 11:56:12 PM »
Rome doesn't consider the faithful of the saps to be outside the church. Rome has even given instructions on how the saps is to keep baptismal records of those it baptises. They have an irregular relationship.
Autocorrect changed sspx to saps. My laptop is broken and I'm not used to typing on my phone.

Disclaimer: I don't have a phone.

How do you keep contact with people without a phone?

I don't.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #376 on: July 29, 2017, 11:47:54 PM »
Also, Ecumenical Councils have judged popes as heretics (the Sixth Ecumenical Council), so there.
However, according to Catholicism, popes are the judges of ecumenical councils and, to the best of my knowledge, popes have decried the anathema against Pope Honorius I and have since refused to accept it.


PS: curiously, only after the Great Schism did popes dare to adopt the name Honorious, and the first one was an anti-pope.
Can a Pope judge a previous Pope? Because one certainly tried:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod
The worst part is that this horrendous (pun fully intended!) incident happened in a Rome that was still nominally part of the Church.

I thought that the painting when I glanced at the article was just a symbolic work of art... turns out they actually dragged the corpse and propped it up on a throne where they put the corpse on trial.

What the heck.

And what is funnier is that the next two popes annulled this synod, and then the next pope annulled the annulment.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 11:50:33 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #377 on: July 30, 2017, 07:39:46 AM »
Disclaimer: I don't have a phone.

How do you keep contact with people without a phone?

I don't.

That's very Finnish of you. We don't generally talk to anyone anywhere. We might have phones but we don't use them.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #378 on: July 30, 2017, 01:33:57 PM »
Disclaimer: I don't have a phone.

How do you keep contact with people without a phone?

I don't.

That's very Finnish of you. We don't generally talk to anyone anywhere. We might have phones but we don't use them.

Maybe I should move.  I get a lot of flak over here for not having a phone. 

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #379 on: July 31, 2017, 12:59:02 AM »
You seem to be very confused as your name states, why would I tell anyone to return to a Church that has an anti Christ as a pope? I am telling people the Church of today that calls itself Catholic, is not Catholic..it’s anti Catholic filled with freemason homo liberals. There was an infiltration decades before Vatican 2. You can call it the concilliary Church, Vatican 2 sect..whatever you wish but it ain’t the true Catholic Church, I hope this clarifies things for you.

No, I'm not confused. I just don't want to give credence to your sedevacantist theory. During my time as a Roman Catholic, I experienced all of the different sects (except for the Charismatic one...didn't want to have anything to do with that), including the attendance at a sedevacantist parish. However, I quickly realized that out of all of the "explanations" for the depressing state of the RC, the sedevacantist theory was the worst one. How could people claim that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the real Church, and in the same breath, claim that the RC is still the true church but is going through a crisis because they have no pope. If you have no leader, I would say that the gates of hell prevailed! What other sign of victory would one need to admit defeat? Furthermore, the sedevacantist sect is riddled with priests with questionable holy orders.

Don't get me started on sedevacantists!
you are truly confused and should do more research and effort towards your salvation

I did my research, which is how I found the Orthodox Church.

Quote
Indefectibility (the promise of Christ to always be with His Church, and that the gates of Hell will not prevail against it) means that the Church will, until the end of time, remain essentially what she is.  The indefectibility of the Church requires that at least a remnant of the Church will exist until the end of the world, and that a true pope will never authoritatively teach error to the entire Church.  It does not exclude antipopes posing as popes (as we’ve had numerous times in the past, even in Rome) or a counterfeit sect that reduces the adherents of the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the last days.  This is precisely what is predicted to occur in the last days and what happened during the Arian crisis.   
St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."2 
Further, it should be noted that the Church has defined that heretics are the gates of Hell which Our Lord mentioned in Matthew 16! 
Pope Vigilius, Second Council of Constantinople, 553: “... we bear in mind what was promised about the holy Church and Him who said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (by these we understand the death-dealing tongues of heretics)...”3 
Pope St. Leo IX, Sept. 2, 1053: “The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter... because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction, it would never be overcome.”4 
St. Thomas Aquinas (+1262): “Wisdom may fill the hearts of the faithful, and put to silence the dread folly of heretics, fittingly referred to as the gates of Hell.”5 (Intro. To Catena Aurea.) 
 
Notice that heretics are the gates of Hell.  Heretics are not members of the Church.  That’s why a heretic could never be a pope.  The gates of Hell (heretics) could never have authority over the Church of Christ.  It’s not those who expose the heretical Vatican II antipopes who are asserting that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church; it’s those who obstinately defend them as popes, even though they can clearly be proven to be manifest heretics. 


Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”6 
St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306:  "Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church..."   
There is not one teaching of the Catholic Church that can be quoted which is contrary to the fact that there is presently a counterfeit sect which has reduced the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the days of the Great Apostasy, which is presided over by antipopes who have falsely posed as popes.  Those who assert that the Vatican II sect is the Catholic Church assert that the Catholic Church officially endorses false religions and false doctrines.  This is impossible and would mean that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Catholic Church

When I was attending a sedevacantist parish and doing research on sedevacantism, I remember frequenting another forum, and in that forum, there was a thread that listed "talking points" for sedevacantists to use when debating. Your discussion here is basically one big reference to that thread.

The problem with debating sedevacantists is that you take snippets of what the Church fathers said and neglect the rest of the quotes or documents to which you are referring to. You don't need to be a student with me in my doctoral research class (it's so boring, but I need to get back to studying while my kids are asleep) to know that this is simply bad research. Then, you will provide more snippets (with no context) to counter anything that I say. Thus, the cycle goes on and on and on...
all you have to do is provide the rest of the quotes you are referring to  here... " neglect the rest of the quotes or documents to which you are referring to."
that is your problem

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #380 on: July 31, 2017, 01:03:03 AM »
According to Rome, being the supporter of SSPX or member of Eastern Orthodox Church are all outside the Catholic Church and will end up in hell.
So that is mean I have to accept all the teaching of Vatican II, and Novos Ordo Mass otherwise I will end up in hell.

That's not what Rome teaches. That's what Sedes teach. Rome teaches you can be a non-Christian and be saved, under certain conditions. Pope Francis said even atheists can be saved.

Vatican II changed the historical teaching on salvation, and non-Christian religions.

But, the conditions for this to happen are almost impossible. I believe they call it "invincible ignorance." In the context of Catholicism, an atheist could only go to heaven if they had never been given the opportunity to learn about and convert to Christianity.
True Catholicism rejects invincible ignorance

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #381 on: July 31, 2017, 04:07:01 AM »
According to Rome, being the supporter of SSPX or member of Eastern Orthodox Church are all outside the Catholic Church and will end up in hell.
So that is mean I have to accept all the teaching of Vatican II, and Novos Ordo Mass otherwise I will end up in hell.

That's not what Rome teaches. That's what Sedes teach. Rome teaches you can be a non-Christian and be saved, under certain conditions. Pope Francis said even atheists can be saved.

Vatican II changed the historical teaching on salvation, and non-Christian religions.

But, the conditions for this to happen are almost impossible. I believe they call it "invincible ignorance." In the context of Catholicism, an atheist could only go to heaven if they had never been given the opportunity to learn about and convert to Christianity.
True Catholicism rejects invincible ignorance

Are you sure True Catholicism rejects invincible ignorance???

Invincible ignorance (Catholic theology)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincible_ignorance_(Catholic_theology)
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #382 on: July 31, 2017, 09:04:17 AM »
According to Rome, being the supporter of SSPX or member of Eastern Orthodox Church are all outside the Catholic Church and will end up in hell.
So that is mean I have to accept all the teaching of Vatican II, and Novos Ordo Mass otherwise I will end up in hell.

That's not what Rome teaches. That's what Sedes teach. Rome teaches you can be a non-Christian and be saved, under certain conditions. Pope Francis said even atheists can be saved.

Vatican II changed the historical teaching on salvation, and non-Christian religions.

But, the conditions for this to happen are almost impossible. I believe they call it "invincible ignorance." In the context of Catholicism, an atheist could only go to heaven if they had never been given the opportunity to learn about and convert to Christianity.
True Catholicism rejects invincible ignorance

Are you sure True Catholicism rejects invincible ignorance???

Invincible ignorance (Catholic theology)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincible_ignorance_(Catholic_theology)
yes,it's debatable but  no point in debating it with you since you are not Catholic

Offline ConfusedRC

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #383 on: July 31, 2017, 09:58:18 AM »
You seem to be very confused as your name states, why would I tell anyone to return to a Church that has an anti Christ as a pope? I am telling people the Church of today that calls itself Catholic, is not Catholic..it’s anti Catholic filled with freemason homo liberals. There was an infiltration decades before Vatican 2. You can call it the concilliary Church, Vatican 2 sect..whatever you wish but it ain’t the true Catholic Church, I hope this clarifies things for you.

No, I'm not confused. I just don't want to give credence to your sedevacantist theory. During my time as a Roman Catholic, I experienced all of the different sects (except for the Charismatic one...didn't want to have anything to do with that), including the attendance at a sedevacantist parish. However, I quickly realized that out of all of the "explanations" for the depressing state of the RC, the sedevacantist theory was the worst one. How could people claim that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the real Church, and in the same breath, claim that the RC is still the true church but is going through a crisis because they have no pope. If you have no leader, I would say that the gates of hell prevailed! What other sign of victory would one need to admit defeat? Furthermore, the sedevacantist sect is riddled with priests with questionable holy orders.

Don't get me started on sedevacantists!
you are truly confused and should do more research and effort towards your salvation

I did my research, which is how I found the Orthodox Church.

Quote
Indefectibility (the promise of Christ to always be with His Church, and that the gates of Hell will not prevail against it) means that the Church will, until the end of time, remain essentially what she is.  The indefectibility of the Church requires that at least a remnant of the Church will exist until the end of the world, and that a true pope will never authoritatively teach error to the entire Church.  It does not exclude antipopes posing as popes (as we’ve had numerous times in the past, even in Rome) or a counterfeit sect that reduces the adherents of the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the last days.  This is precisely what is predicted to occur in the last days and what happened during the Arian crisis.   
St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."2 
Further, it should be noted that the Church has defined that heretics are the gates of Hell which Our Lord mentioned in Matthew 16! 
Pope Vigilius, Second Council of Constantinople, 553: “... we bear in mind what was promised about the holy Church and Him who said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (by these we understand the death-dealing tongues of heretics)...”3 
Pope St. Leo IX, Sept. 2, 1053: “The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter... because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction, it would never be overcome.”4 
St. Thomas Aquinas (+1262): “Wisdom may fill the hearts of the faithful, and put to silence the dread folly of heretics, fittingly referred to as the gates of Hell.”5 (Intro. To Catena Aurea.) 
 
Notice that heretics are the gates of Hell.  Heretics are not members of the Church.  That’s why a heretic could never be a pope.  The gates of Hell (heretics) could never have authority over the Church of Christ.  It’s not those who expose the heretical Vatican II antipopes who are asserting that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church; it’s those who obstinately defend them as popes, even though they can clearly be proven to be manifest heretics. 


Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”6 
St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306:  "Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church..."   
There is not one teaching of the Catholic Church that can be quoted which is contrary to the fact that there is presently a counterfeit sect which has reduced the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the days of the Great Apostasy, which is presided over by antipopes who have falsely posed as popes.  Those who assert that the Vatican II sect is the Catholic Church assert that the Catholic Church officially endorses false religions and false doctrines.  This is impossible and would mean that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Catholic Church

When I was attending a sedevacantist parish and doing research on sedevacantism, I remember frequenting another forum, and in that forum, there was a thread that listed "talking points" for sedevacantists to use when debating. Your discussion here is basically one big reference to that thread.

The problem with debating sedevacantists is that you take snippets of what the Church fathers said and neglect the rest of the quotes or documents to which you are referring to. You don't need to be a student with me in my doctoral research class (it's so boring, but I need to get back to studying while my kids are asleep) to know that this is simply bad research. Then, you will provide more snippets (with no context) to counter anything that I say. Thus, the cycle goes on and on and on...
all you have to do is provide the rest of the quotes you are referring to  here... " neglect the rest of the quotes or documents to which you are referring to."
that is your problem

Why should I provide the text for quotes that you are using? Isn't that backwards?
I am no longer a "confused Roman Catholic" as I joined the Orthodox Church in April 2016.

Offline ConfusedRC

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #384 on: July 31, 2017, 10:00:00 AM »
According to Rome, being the supporter of SSPX or member of Eastern Orthodox Church are all outside the Catholic Church and will end up in hell.
So that is mean I have to accept all the teaching of Vatican II, and Novos Ordo Mass otherwise I will end up in hell.

That's not what Rome teaches. That's what Sedes teach. Rome teaches you can be a non-Christian and be saved, under certain conditions. Pope Francis said even atheists can be saved.

Vatican II changed the historical teaching on salvation, and non-Christian religions.

But, the conditions for this to happen are almost impossible. I believe they call it "invincible ignorance." In the context of Catholicism, an atheist could only go to heaven if they had never been given the opportunity to learn about and convert to Christianity.
True Catholicism rejects invincible ignorance

Are you sure True Catholicism rejects invincible ignorance???

Invincible ignorance (Catholic theology)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincible_ignorance_(Catholic_theology)
yes,it's debatable but  no point in debating it with you since you are not Catholic

Why would a Catholic debate a Catholic? Shouldn't Catholics be debating non-Catholics? :o
I am no longer a "confused Roman Catholic" as I joined the Orthodox Church in April 2016.

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #385 on: July 31, 2017, 10:56:10 AM »
You seem to be very confused as your name states, why would I tell anyone to return to a Church that has an anti Christ as a pope? I am telling people the Church of today that calls itself Catholic, is not Catholic..it’s anti Catholic filled with freemason homo liberals. There was an infiltration decades before Vatican 2. You can call it the concilliary Church, Vatican 2 sect..whatever you wish but it ain’t the true Catholic Church, I hope this clarifies things for you.

No, I'm not confused. I just don't want to give credence to your sedevacantist theory. During my time as a Roman Catholic, I experienced all of the different sects (except for the Charismatic one...didn't want to have anything to do with that), including the attendance at a sedevacantist parish. However, I quickly realized that out of all of the "explanations" for the depressing state of the RC, the sedevacantist theory was the worst one. How could people claim that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the real Church, and in the same breath, claim that the RC is still the true church but is going through a crisis because they have no pope. If you have no leader, I would say that the gates of hell prevailed! What other sign of victory would one need to admit defeat? Furthermore, the sedevacantist sect is riddled with priests with questionable holy orders.

Don't get me started on sedevacantists!
you are truly confused and should do more research and effort towards your salvation

I did my research, which is how I found the Orthodox Church.

Quote
Indefectibility (the promise of Christ to always be with His Church, and that the gates of Hell will not prevail against it) means that the Church will, until the end of time, remain essentially what she is.  The indefectibility of the Church requires that at least a remnant of the Church will exist until the end of the world, and that a true pope will never authoritatively teach error to the entire Church.  It does not exclude antipopes posing as popes (as we’ve had numerous times in the past, even in Rome) or a counterfeit sect that reduces the adherents of the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the last days.  This is precisely what is predicted to occur in the last days and what happened during the Arian crisis.   
St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."2 
Further, it should be noted that the Church has defined that heretics are the gates of Hell which Our Lord mentioned in Matthew 16! 
Pope Vigilius, Second Council of Constantinople, 553: “... we bear in mind what was promised about the holy Church and Him who said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (by these we understand the death-dealing tongues of heretics)...”3 
Pope St. Leo IX, Sept. 2, 1053: “The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter... because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction, it would never be overcome.”4 
St. Thomas Aquinas (+1262): “Wisdom may fill the hearts of the faithful, and put to silence the dread folly of heretics, fittingly referred to as the gates of Hell.”5 (Intro. To Catena Aurea.) 
 
Notice that heretics are the gates of Hell.  Heretics are not members of the Church.  That’s why a heretic could never be a pope.  The gates of Hell (heretics) could never have authority over the Church of Christ.  It’s not those who expose the heretical Vatican II antipopes who are asserting that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church; it’s those who obstinately defend them as popes, even though they can clearly be proven to be manifest heretics. 


Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”6 
St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306:  "Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church..."   
There is not one teaching of the Catholic Church that can be quoted which is contrary to the fact that there is presently a counterfeit sect which has reduced the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the days of the Great Apostasy, which is presided over by antipopes who have falsely posed as popes.  Those who assert that the Vatican II sect is the Catholic Church assert that the Catholic Church officially endorses false religions and false doctrines.  This is impossible and would mean that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Catholic Church

When I was attending a sedevacantist parish and doing research on sedevacantism, I remember frequenting another forum, and in that forum, there was a thread that listed "talking points" for sedevacantists to use when debating. Your discussion here is basically one big reference to that thread.

The problem with debating sedevacantists is that you take snippets of what the Church fathers said and neglect the rest of the quotes or documents to which you are referring to. You don't need to be a student with me in my doctoral research class (it's so boring, but I need to get back to studying while my kids are asleep) to know that this is simply bad research. Then, you will provide more snippets (with no context) to counter anything that I say. Thus, the cycle goes on and on and on...
all you have to do is provide the rest of the quotes you are referring to  here... " neglect the rest of the quotes or documents to which you are referring to."
that is your problem

Why should I provide the text for quotes that you are using? Isn't that backwards?

you are the one claiming that I have neglected something,it's up to you to prove that...but I suggest you don't waste your time because you won't be able to prove me wrong

I debate non catholics when it comes to trying to convert them, invincible ignorance is debatable ,  what is the point in discussing that topic with you...if I convince you on that issue would that help in your conversion?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #386 on: July 31, 2017, 12:22:05 PM »
...no point in debating it with you since you are not Catholic

Then why are you here? 

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #387 on: July 31, 2017, 12:37:06 PM »
...no point in debating it with you since you are not Catholic

Then why are you here?
the issue of invincible ignorance or baptism of desire are heated debates within Catholic forums, what is the point of discussing those issues with non catholics..I'm here to convert non Catholics to the true faith...the papacy, filioque..why the orthodox are wrong concerning remarriage etc...once you have converted and become Catholic then I would debate those other issues...baby steps with you guys

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #388 on: July 31, 2017, 12:38:32 PM »
...no point in debating it with you since you are not Catholic

Then why are you here?
the issue of invincible ignorance or baptism of desire are heated debates within Catholic forums, what is the point of discussing those issues with non catholics..I'm here to convert non Catholics to the true faith...the papacy, filioque..why the orthodox are wrong concerning remarriage etc...once you have converted and become Catholic then I would debate those other issues...baby steps with you guys

We prefer our hell to your heaven. 

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #389 on: July 31, 2017, 01:02:23 PM »
The longer the thread grows the more childish it gets. I just hope that Anthony does not get confused by all this nonsense and makes a wise decision.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 01:03:11 PM by Lepanto »
Sanctus Deus, Sanctus fortis, Sanctus immortalis, miserere nobis.

Offline servulus

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #390 on: July 31, 2017, 01:06:58 PM »
...no point in debating it with you since you are not Catholic

Then why are you here?
the issue of invincible ignorance or baptism of desire are heated debates within Catholic forums, what is the point of discussing those issues with non catholics..I'm here to convert non Catholics to the true faith...the papacy, filioque..why the orthodox are wrong concerning remarriage etc...once you have converted and become Catholic then I would debate those other issues...baby steps with you guys
I doubt you'll convince the people here that they need to submit to the papacy and at the same time convince them that there is no pope. I really doubt that they'd accept this especially because it's a hard enough doctrine to swallow even if it hadn't failed. To most people it seems foolish that such an important office can be vacant for their entire lifetime, generations into the future indefinitely and still have to be subject to it for salvation. It seems superstitious. Your church no longer exists. You can't even prove your church exists. It is like larping.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #391 on: July 31, 2017, 01:11:10 PM »
Perhaps there is a pope in an underwater city somewhere.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #392 on: July 31, 2017, 01:45:34 PM »
Perhaps there is a pope in an underwater city somewhere.
Nope. It's all very simple. His name is Francis, he is the bishop of Rome and from Argentina. You all know him from the media. Unfortunately, he no longer calls himself Patriarch of the West.
Search no longer, no need for sedis or underwater cities.
The vicar of Christ exists on Earth, it's all obvious.
Sanctus Deus, Sanctus fortis, Sanctus immortalis, miserere nobis.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #393 on: July 31, 2017, 01:56:21 PM »
Every bishop is a vicar of Christ.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #394 on: July 31, 2017, 01:59:29 PM »
...no point in debating it with you since you are not Catholic

Then why are you here?
the issue of invincible ignorance or baptism of desire are heated debates within Catholic forums, what is the point of discussing those issues with non catholics..I'm here to convert non Catholics to the true faith...the papacy, filioque..why the orthodox are wrong concerning remarriage etc...once you have converted and become Catholic then I would debate those other issues...baby steps with you guys

We prefer our hell to your heaven.
who is this we you are referring to? you are talking foolish, this is not an issue to joke about

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #395 on: July 31, 2017, 02:00:47 PM »
Perhaps there is a pope in an underwater city somewhere.
Nope. It's all very simple. His name is Francis, he is the bishop of Rome and from Argentina. You all know him from the media. Unfortunately, he no longer calls himself Patriarch of the West.
Search no longer, no need for sedis or underwater cities.
The vicar of Christ exists on Earth, it's all obvious.
It's not that simple, Francis is an apostate heretic from hell, do I need to post all the non catholic things he does and teaches? 

Dear sedevacantist, in this and other posts in this thread you have broken the rules of this board: not proper titling of Pope Francis, crossing the limits of polemics allowed for the public fora. I am giving you 30% warning and if you are going to continue posting in such manner in this thread, I will be forced to lock it.

Dominika,
Global Moderator
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 09:11:42 AM by Dominika »

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #396 on: July 31, 2017, 02:05:58 PM »
Perhaps there is a pope in an underwater city somewhere.
Nope. It's all very simple. His name is Francis, he is the bishop of Rome and from Argentina. You all know him from the media. Unfortunately, he no longer calls himself Patriarch of the West.
Search no longer, no need for sedis or underwater cities.
The vicar of Christ exists on Earth, it's all obvious.
It's not that simple, Francis is an apostate heretic from hell, do I need to post all the non catholic things he does and teaches?
No. Who are you to judge that? What kind of authority do you have? None, I would bet. Your position is a dead end, and you know it. But really, come back! If you prefer the forma extraordinaria, fine, I am with you. No need to pursue this nonsense.
Sanctus Deus, Sanctus fortis, Sanctus immortalis, miserere nobis.

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #397 on: July 31, 2017, 02:35:27 PM »
...no point in debating it with you since you are not Catholic

Then why are you here?
the issue of invincible ignorance or baptism of desire are heated debates within Catholic forums, what is the point of discussing those issues with non catholics..I'm here to convert non Catholics to the true faith...the papacy, filioque..why the orthodox are wrong concerning remarriage etc...once you have converted and become Catholic then I would debate those other issues...baby steps with you guys
I doubt you'll convince the people here that they need to submit to the papacy and at the same time convince them that there is no pope. I really doubt that they'd accept this especially because it's a hard enough doctrine to swallow even if it hadn't failed. To most people it seems foolish that such an important office can be vacant for their entire lifetime, generations into the future indefinitely and still have to be subject to it for salvation. It seems superstitious. Your church no longer exists. You can't even prove your church exists. It is like larping.
The papacy is biblical,if you don't believe that then you have not put in enough effort. Francis is no Catholic,this should be clear to anyone of good will. We are in a crisis, the bible states when Christ returns will he find any faith?

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #398 on: July 31, 2017, 02:43:30 PM »
Perhaps there is a pope in an underwater city somewhere.
Nope. It's all very simple. His name is Francis, he is the bishop of Rome and from Argentina. You all know him from the media. Unfortunately, he no longer calls himself Patriarch of the West.
Search no longer, no need for sedis or underwater cities.
The vicar of Christ exists on Earth, it's all obvious.
It's not that simple, Francis is an apostate heretic from hell, do I need to post all the non catholic things he does and teaches?
No. Who are you to judge that? What kind of authority do you have? None, I would bet. Your position is a dead end, and you know it. But really, come back! If you prefer the forma extraordinaria, fine, I am with you. No need to pursue this nonsense.
The Catholic Church teaches that only those who are baptized and profess the true faith can be considered members of the Catholic Church (see Mystici Corporis of Pius XII).  Since Francis definitely does not profess the true faith,but a false faith, he cannot be considered a member of the Catholic Church or the pope. , Pope Leo XIII teaches the following:


 Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 13), June 29, 1896: “You are not to be looked upon as holding the true Catholic faith if you do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.”

Francis does not teach that the faith of Rome (the Catholic faith) is to be held.  He teaches the opposite.  He has explicitly rejected converting atheists, Jews, schismatics and others many times

 He therefore teaches that non-Catholics do not need to hold the faith of Rome.  According to Catholic teaching, he is not to be considered a Catholic.  It’s that simple.

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 23), June 29, 1943: “For not every offense, although it may be a grave evil, is such as by its very own nature [suapte natura] to sever a man from the Body of the Church [ab Ecclesiae Corpore], as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9), June 29, 1896:


Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #399 on: July 31, 2017, 02:44:26 PM »
Perhaps there is a pope in an underwater city somewhere.
Nope. It's all very simple. His name is Francis, he is the bishop of Rome and from Argentina. You all know him from the media. Unfortunately, he no longer calls himself Patriarch of the West.
Search no longer, no need for sedis or underwater cities.
The vicar of Christ exists on Earth, it's all obvious.
It's not that simple, Francis is an apostate heretic from hell, do I need to post all the non catholic things he does and teaches?
No. Who are you to judge that? What kind of authority do you have? None, I would bet. Your position is a dead end, and you know it. But really, come back! If you prefer the forma extraordinaria, fine, I am with you. No need to pursue this nonsense.
The Catholic Church teaches that only those who are baptized and profess the true faith can be considered members of the Catholic Church (see Mystici Corporis of Pius XII).  Since Francis definitely does not profess the true faith,but a false faith, he cannot be considered a member of the Catholic Church or the pope. , Pope Leo XIII teaches the following:


 Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 13), June 29, 1896: “You are not to be looked upon as holding the true Catholic faith if you do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.”

Francis does not teach that the faith of Rome (the Catholic faith) is to be held.  He teaches the opposite.  He has explicitly rejected converting atheists, Jews, schismatics and others many times

 He therefore teaches that non-Catholics do not need to hold the faith of Rome.  According to Catholic teaching, he is not to be considered a Catholic.  It’s that simple.

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 23), June 29, 1943: “For not every offense, although it may be a grave evil, is such as by its very own nature [suapte natura] to sever a man from the Body of the Church [ab Ecclesiae Corpore], as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9), June 29, 1896:


“So, with every reason for doubting removed, can it be lawful for anyone to reject any of those truths without thereby sending himself headlong into open heresy? without thereby separating himself from the Church and in one sweeping act repudiating the entirety of Christian doctrine?… he who dissents in even one point from divinely received truths has most truly cast off the faith completely, since he refuses to revere God as the supreme truth and proper motive of faith.”

Notice, Pope Leo XIII teaches that anyone who dissents from a Catholic teaching sends or delivers himself (se det in the Latin) by that dissent itself (hoc ipso) into open heresy (in apertam haeresim).  Herein we find the true teaching of the Catholic Church,   This teaching of the Magisterium proves that the individual’s dissent from Catholic teaching (not a churchman’s declaration that one has dissented) sends a person headlong into open heresy.  It is thus undeniable that the offense of heresy (or what Pope Leo XIII calls “open heresy”) occurs with the dissent itself on the part of the person, prior to any declaration by a Church authority or any declaration by the individual of membership in a non-Catholic sect.  The dissent itself separates the person completely from the Church in one sweeping act.

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #400 on: July 31, 2017, 03:25:57 PM »
@sedevacantis
Quote
Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 13), June 29, 1896: “You are not to be looked upon as holding the true Catholic faith if you do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.”
how is this helping you ?

Quote
Francis does not teach that the faith of Rome (the Catholic faith) is to be held.  He teaches the opposite.  He has explicitly rejected converting atheists, Jews, schismatics and others many times
You see ? You do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.

Do you not see the absurdity of your position ?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 03:29:34 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #401 on: July 31, 2017, 04:20:38 PM »
@sedevacantis
Quote
Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 13), June 29, 1896: “You are not to be looked upon as holding the true Catholic faith if you do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.”
how is this helping you ?

Quote
Francis does not teach that the faith of Rome (the Catholic faith) is to be held.  He teaches the opposite.  He has explicitly rejected converting atheists, Jews, schismatics and others many times
You see ? You do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.

Do you not see the absurdity of your position ?
no what is absurd is to believe that Francis is a Catholic, what is equally absurd is to deny the papacy, the fact of the matter is there is an anti pope in Rome, look into the arian crisis

Offline servulus

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #402 on: July 31, 2017, 05:51:57 PM »
@sedevacantis
Quote
Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 13), June 29, 1896: “You are not to be looked upon as holding the true Catholic faith if you do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.”
how is this helping you ?

Quote
Francis does not teach that the faith of Rome (the Catholic faith) is to be held.  He teaches the opposite.  He has explicitly rejected converting atheists, Jews, schismatics and others many times
You see ? You do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.

Do you not see the absurdity of your position ?
no what is absurd is to believe that Francis is a Catholic, what is equally absurd is to deny the papacy, the fact of the matter is there is an anti pope in Rome, look into the arian crisis
How many generations did the Catholic Church go without a hierarchy during the Arian crisis?

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #403 on: July 31, 2017, 06:47:09 PM »
Perhaps there is a pope in an underwater city somewhere.
Nope. It's all very simple. His name is Francis, he is the bishop of Rome and from Argentina. You all know him from the media. Unfortunately, he no longer calls himself Patriarch of the West.
Search no longer, no need for sedis or underwater cities.
The vicar of Christ exists on Earth, it's all obvious.
It's not that simple, Francis is an apostate heretic from hell, do I need to post all the non catholic things he does and teaches?
No. Who are you to judge that? What kind of authority do you have? None, I would bet. Your position is a dead end, and you know it. But really, come back! If you prefer the forma extraordinaria, fine, I am with you. No need to pursue this nonsense.
The Catholic Church teaches that only those who are baptized and profess the true faith can be considered members of the Catholic Church (see Mystici Corporis of Pius XII).  Since Francis definitely does not profess the true faith,but a false faith, he cannot be considered a member of the Catholic Church or the pope. , Pope Leo XIII teaches the following:


 Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 13), June 29, 1896: “You are not to be looked upon as holding the true Catholic faith if you do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.”

Francis does not teach that the faith of Rome (the Catholic faith) is to be held.  He teaches the opposite.  He has explicitly rejected converting atheists, Jews, schismatics and others many times

He therefore teaches that non-Catholics do not need to hold the faith of Rome.  According to Catholic teaching, he is not to be considered a Catholic.  It’s that simple.

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 23), June 29, 1943: “For not every offense, although it may be a grave evil, is such as by its very own nature [suapte natura] to sever a man from the Body of the Church [ab Ecclesiae Corpore], as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9), June 29, 1896:

I think that a significant amount of media distortion has really hurt Pope Francis, and although he is too liberal, and certainly he is incorrect as it pertains to the whole Amoris Laetitia issue, as well as some of the things he has said, a lot of the perception of him from the media is invalid - for example, the fact that he taught that atheists can get to heaven is absolutely bogus and comes from eye-candy media titles from what I can tell.

I really think the mainstream media - and unfortunately the majority of Cradle Roman Catholics who don't care about their beliefs whatsoever - have this perception that Catholics beliefs and morals are subject to cultural change based on whatever the Pope says - but rarely do they understand the unreformability of Catholic dogma and morals which is even used in John Paul II's Catechism of the Catholic Church.
It is something that I am glad the Orthodox Church understands - that morals and beliefs cannot be changed.

It really causes me to cringe when I read an article which states "Catholics no longer have to believe in Limbo!", or "Catholics are no longer required to believe Luther was a heretic!", or "Catholics no longer have to believe in indulgences!", etc.

With that being said, I think it is really daring to suggest that there is no Pope right now, simply because he publicly teaches ideas that are contrary to the Catholic Church.

Do I need to remind you that Pope John XXII publicly taught that the Beatific Vision was nonsense, and he was rebuked and corrected by his Cardinals? It doesn't mean that the seat has been empty during those periods of time!

As Pope Pius IX said when asked what would happen if a Pope taught heresy, and he said "Well, you just don't follow them!"

Popes are seldom infallible according to the Catholic Church, and you should read Vatican I very carefully.
Although I do have my suspicions regarding the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI, I myself can't really be the judge of whether or not the Pope is actually the Pope.

As Saint John Chrysostom said, "Is it Tradition? Ask no more."
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 06:51:11 PM by LivenotoneviL »
I'm done.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #404 on: July 31, 2017, 08:56:35 PM »
I'm here to convert non Catholics to the true faith...
And I, all along, thought that you were here to read to us the riot act.  ::)
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