Author Topic: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic  (Read 23071 times)

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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #135 on: July 10, 2017, 02:37:50 PM »
"Neither Dr. Luther nor Henry VIII ceased to be Christians."

I never said Martin Luther or Henry VIII ceased to be Christians.  You seemed to state that once Catholic always Catholic if one was baptized Catholic.  Both of these individuals were baptized Catholics and were subsequently excommunicated as heretics.  In your mind are they still Catholic?
Exactly how do you define Catholic? Of course, you can separate yourself in various ways from the body of Christ, become an atheist or Buddhist and try to violate the ten commandments as often as possible. Will it cut you off from divine grace administered via the sacraments? - Surely. Will it erase what happened in baptism? -No. There is no formal way to leave the church in that sense as far as I know. Dr. Luther could have made a good confession and be again in full communion with the church.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 02:39:16 PM by Lepanto »
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Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #136 on: July 10, 2017, 02:49:37 PM »
To the OP:

I just want you to know that I'm praying for you. As you can see from my forum name, I was once RC. I went down a similar path: went to Novus Ordo Masses, then to Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) at parish churches, then to an SSPX parish, and finally to an independent sedevacantist parish.

It sounds like you want to be EO, but you are worried about what the RC teaches about leaving the church. I sometimes get the same way, but then I remember that they are in error.

Thank you so much confusedRC.  Your experience is so similar to my. I am glad you can overcome the psychological fear. If my follow my heart I will be EO. But the fear of damnation just so strong. I will pray for you also.
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline PJ26

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #137 on: July 10, 2017, 02:50:19 PM »
@Lepanto

I define Catholic as someone who believes what Catholicism believes and teaches.  Not someone who is a heretic or an excommunicant, not one who just calls themselves Catholic and goes to mass on Sunday to check off a box or out of habit or because they were born Catholic, etc while saying homosexual marriage is Ok and Jesus isn't really present in the Blessed Sacrament.  That's my definition.  You are free to disagree obviously. 

I'm interested in your response to the question I posed in my previous post regarding the definition of heresy, assuming you didn't respond while I was typing this:

"Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith"

If I am a Catholic and I reject the teaching of an ecumenical council, in this case Vatican I, a teaching which Catholicism says is divinely inspired and thus infallible - am I not a heretic according to this definition (@Lepanto or anyone else)?

Notice too, it's not just "obstinate denial" it's also "obstinate doubt."
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 02:53:11 PM by PJ26 »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #138 on: July 10, 2017, 02:50:21 PM »
"Neither Dr. Luther nor Henry VIII ceased to be Christians."

I never said Martin Luther or Henry VIII ceased to be Christians.  You seemed to state that once Catholic always Catholic if one was baptized Catholic.  Both of these individuals were baptized Catholics and were subsequently excommunicated as heretics.  In your mind are they still Catholic?
Exactly how do you define Catholic? Of course, you can separate yourself in various ways from the body of Christ, become an atheist or Buddhist and try to violate the ten commandments as often as possible. Will it cut you off from divine grace administered via the sacraments? - Surely. Will it erase what happened in baptism? -No. There is no formal way to leave the church in that sense as far as I know. Dr. Luther could have made a good confession and be again in full communion with the church.

And then be strangled (as being again a good Catholic) before burnt. But this might be a digression.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #139 on: July 10, 2017, 02:52:31 PM »
"Anytime the subject comes up, I see Catholics adding further qualifications, some of which directly contradict the Vatican I definition."

But who are those Catholics and what authority do they have?  Vatican I, Pastor Aeternus, are crystal clear.  The teaching on papal infallibility is itself infallible and if you don't believe it you're anathema.  No one and no thing from a Catholic point of view, at least the official Catholic point of view, can change that.  How certain Catholics try to get around that teaching or justify ignoring it is really beside the point.

When I was in high school I thought papacy is just for administration purpose. He is just the CEO of the Catholic Church. Even when I went to UGCC parish few years ago I thought the same way.

Wow, so I have been anathema by Roman Church for so many year.  :o
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline PJ26

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #140 on: July 10, 2017, 02:53:48 PM »
And a heretic  ;)

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #141 on: July 10, 2017, 02:57:02 PM »
And a heretic  ;)

There are some Eastern Rite Catholics think Papacy is just for administration purpose. According to Vatican they are in big trouble now.  :o
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #142 on: July 10, 2017, 03:00:22 PM »
"Anytime the subject comes up, I see Catholics adding further qualifications, some of which directly contradict the Vatican I definition."

But who are those Catholics and what authority do they have?  Vatican I, Pastor Aeternus, are crystal clear.  The teaching on papal infallibility is itself infallible and if you don't believe it you're anathema.  No one and no thing from a Catholic point of view, at least the official Catholic point of view, can change that.  How certain Catholics try to get around that teaching or justify ignoring it is really beside the point.

When I was in high school I thought papacy is just for administration purpose. He is just the CEO of the Catholic Church. Even when I went to UGCC parish few years ago I thought the same way.

Wow, so I have been anathema by Roman Church for so many year.  :o

I think that's valid. I've met very, very few Catholics in real life who would give the Papal see the divine honors it supposedly demands, altho most of them do love the Pope. Usually it's an attitude of "God bless that dear mortal man for what he's trying to do for us" rather than caring much for his teaching.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #143 on: July 10, 2017, 03:01:27 PM »
@Lepanto

I define Catholic as someone who believes what Catholicism believes and teaches.  Not someone who is a heretic or an excommunicant, not one who just calls themselves Catholic and goes to mass on Sunday to check off a box or out of habit or because they were born Catholic, etc while saying homosexual marriage is Ok and Jesus isn't really present in the Blessed Sacrament.  That's my definition.  You are free to disagree obviously. 

I'm interested in your response to the question I posed in my previous post regarding the definition of heresy, assuming you didn't respond while I was typing this:

"Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith"

If I am a Catholic and I reject the teaching of an ecumenical council, in this case Vatican I, a teaching which Catholicism says is divinely inspired and thus infallible - am I not a heretic according to this definition (@Lepanto or anyone else)?

Notice too, it's not just "obstinate denial" it's also "obstinate doubt."
I don't yet see what you are getting at. But yes, you quoted the CIC, I will not contradict it. If you obstinately doubt a truth which must be believed - does make you a heretic imho. But really, I am the wrong person, not an apologist, not well versed in canon law.
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Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #144 on: July 10, 2017, 03:02:57 PM »
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 03:04:45 PM by Anthony1986 »
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #145 on: July 10, 2017, 03:06:30 PM »
@Lepanto

I define Catholic as someone who believes what Catholicism believes and teaches.  Not someone who is a heretic or an excommunicant, not one who just calls themselves Catholic and goes to mass on Sunday to check off a box or out of habit or because they were born Catholic, etc while saying homosexual marriage is Ok and Jesus isn't really present in the Blessed Sacrament.  That's my definition.  You are free to disagree obviously. 

I'm interested in your response to the question I posed in my previous post regarding the definition of heresy, assuming you didn't respond while I was typing this:

"Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith"

If I am a Catholic and I reject the teaching of an ecumenical council, in this case Vatican I, a teaching which Catholicism says is divinely inspired and thus infallible - am I not a heretic according to this definition (@Lepanto or anyone else)?

Notice too, it's not just "obstinate denial" it's also "obstinate doubt."
I don't yet see what you are getting at. But yes, you quoted the CIC, I will not contradict it. If you obstinately doubt a truth which must be believed - does make you a heretic imho. But really, I am the wrong person, not an apologist, not well versed in canon law.

Your priests must love you.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #146 on: July 10, 2017, 03:08:54 PM »
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #147 on: July 10, 2017, 03:15:53 PM »
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.

Since I was a teenager, I keep hearing the RC priests or religious education teachers saying that RC and EO/OO teach the same things. RC priests and religious education teachers keep saying it is ok for RCs to go to Orthodox priests for communion and confession in case of emergency.
However, when a RC decides to embrace Orthodoxy, RC priests and lay people begin to scream. They said it is schism. It is a mortal sin. You will go to hell for that.

Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.

« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 03:16:37 PM by Anthony1986 »
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #148 on: July 10, 2017, 03:21:26 PM »
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.

Since I was a teenager, I keep hearing the RC priests or religious education teachers saying that RC and EO/OO teach the same things. RC priests and religious education teachers keep saying it is ok for RCs to go to Orthodox priests for communion and confession in case of emergency.
However, when a RC decides to embrace Orthodoxy, RC priests and lay people begin to scream. They said it is schism. It is a mortal sin. You will go to hell for that.

Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.
Anthony, remember this is a forum full of converts. All your going to hear here is an echo.
Sanctus Deus, Sanctus fortis, Sanctus immortalis, miserere nobis.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #149 on: July 10, 2017, 03:22:38 PM »
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.

Since I was a teenager, I keep hearing the RC priests or religious education teachers saying that RC and EO/OO teach the same things. RC priests and religious education teachers keep saying it is ok for RCs to go to Orthodox priests for communion and confession in case of emergency.
However, when a RC decides to embrace Orthodoxy, RC priests and lay people begin to scream. They said it is schism. It is a mortal sin. You will go to hell for that.

Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.

Mm. Yes well. I think there are two different things here, based on the little I know. First, while it's flattering they say we don't teach heresy. However, as I said before, I think it's a diplomatic plum, like a father telling a teenager to come back home he's forgiven him. Grandiosely paternalistic, I think, but I don't know. But, second, the "beginning to scream" is not over doctrine but loyalty. One can get away with much, and even pretend to be disloyal to Rome personally, but to act on disloyalty brings the hammer down. Again, not a matter of doctrine or truth but of subjugation. Yet I have to ask if these "screamers" are particularly conservative?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #150 on: July 10, 2017, 03:23:18 PM »
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.

Since I was a teenager, I keep hearing the RC priests or religious education teachers saying that RC and EO/OO teach the same things. RC priests and religious education teachers keep saying it is ok for RCs to go to Orthodox priests for communion and confession in case of emergency.
However, when a RC decides to embrace Orthodoxy, RC priests and lay people begin to scream. They said it is schism. It is a mortal sin. You will go to hell for that.

Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.
Anthony, remember this is a forum full of converts. All your going to hear here is an echo.

Nice dig. ... Yet not an echo of Rome, for a change.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #151 on: July 10, 2017, 03:27:19 PM »
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.

Since I was a teenager, I keep hearing the RC priests or religious education teachers saying that RC and EO/OO teach the same things. RC priests and religious education teachers keep saying it is ok for RCs to go to Orthodox priests for communion and confession in case of emergency.
However, when a RC decides to embrace Orthodoxy, RC priests and lay people begin to scream. They said it is schism. It is a mortal sin. You will go to hell for that.

Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.
Anthony, remember this is a forum full of converts. All your going to hear here is an echo.

Yes, I know. If I posted this thread in Catholic answer forum I will get lot of attacks. I know the environment of Catholic answer.
CAF members might tell me don't go to either SSPX or Orthodox church.

At this in OrthodoxChristianty.net there are no personal attacks so far. The environment is more friendly. 
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #152 on: July 10, 2017, 03:29:13 PM »
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.

Since I was a teenager, I keep hearing the RC priests or religious education teachers saying that RC and EO/OO teach the same things. RC priests and religious education teachers keep saying it is ok for RCs to go to Orthodox priests for communion and confession in case of emergency.
However, when a RC decides to embrace Orthodoxy, RC priests and lay people begin to scream. They said it is schism. It is a mortal sin. You will go to hell for that.

Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.
Anthony, remember this is a forum full of converts. All your going to hear here is an echo.

Yes, I know. If I posted this thread in Catholic answer forum I will get lot of attacks. I know the environment of Catholic answer.
CAF members might tell me don't go to either SSPX or Orthodox church.

At this in OrthodoxChristianty.net there are no personal attacks so far. The environment is more friendly.
With this, I can agree wholeheartedly. CAF is a bit ... erm ... aggressive .
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 03:30:39 PM by Lepanto »
Sanctus Deus, Sanctus fortis, Sanctus immortalis, miserere nobis.

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #153 on: July 10, 2017, 03:31:49 PM »
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.

Since I was a teenager, I keep hearing the RC priests or religious education teachers saying that RC and EO/OO teach the same things. RC priests and religious education teachers keep saying it is ok for RCs to go to Orthodox priests for communion and confession in case of emergency.
However, when a RC decides to embrace Orthodoxy, RC priests and lay people begin to scream. They said it is schism. It is a mortal sin. You will go to hell for that.

Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.

Mm. Yes well. I think there are two different things here, based on the little I know. First, while it's flattering they say we don't teach heresy. However, as I said before, I think it's a diplomatic plum, like a father telling a teenager to come back home he's forgiven him. Grandiosely paternalistic, I think, but I don't know. But, second, the "beginning to scream" is not over doctrine but loyalty. One can get away with much, and even pretend to be disloyal to Rome personally, but to act on disloyalty brings the hammer down. Again, not a matter of doctrine or truth but of subjugation. Yet I have to ask if these "screamers" are particularly conservative?
"Screamers" are conservative Catholics. The type of people who talks about apparitions and private revelations all the time. 
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 03:32:42 PM by Anthony1986 »
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #154 on: July 10, 2017, 03:36:09 PM »
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.

Since I was a teenager, I keep hearing the RC priests or religious education teachers saying that RC and EO/OO teach the same things. RC priests and religious education teachers keep saying it is ok for RCs to go to Orthodox priests for communion and confession in case of emergency.
However, when a RC decides to embrace Orthodoxy, RC priests and lay people begin to scream. They said it is schism. It is a mortal sin. You will go to hell for that.

Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.

Mm. Yes well. I think there are two different things here, based on the little I know. First, while it's flattering they say we don't teach heresy. However, as I said before, I think it's a diplomatic plum, like a father telling a teenager to come back home he's forgiven him. Grandiosely paternalistic, I think, but I don't know. But, second, the "beginning to scream" is not over doctrine but loyalty. One can get away with much, and even pretend to be disloyal to Rome personally, but to act on disloyalty brings the hammer down. Again, not a matter of doctrine or truth but of subjugation. Yet I have to ask if these "screamers" are particularly conservative?
"Screamers" are conservative Catholics. The type of people who talks about apparitions and private revelations all the time.

Well, then, they aren't the same as the priest teaching you that the EO are the same as RC, are they? Knights of Columbus types do their own thing, Catholic-wise, altho they consider themselves the real Catholics.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #155 on: July 10, 2017, 03:57:08 PM »
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.

Since I was a teenager, I keep hearing the RC priests or religious education teachers saying that RC and EO/OO teach the same things. RC priests and religious education teachers keep saying it is ok for RCs to go to Orthodox priests for communion and confession in case of emergency.
However, when a RC decides to embrace Orthodoxy, RC priests and lay people begin to scream. They said it is schism. It is a mortal sin. You will go to hell for that.

Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.

Mm. Yes well. I think there are two different things here, based on the little I know. First, while it's flattering they say we don't teach heresy. However, as I said before, I think it's a diplomatic plum, like a father telling a teenager to come back home he's forgiven him. Grandiosely paternalistic, I think, but I don't know. But, second, the "beginning to scream" is not over doctrine but loyalty. One can get away with much, and even pretend to be disloyal to Rome personally, but to act on disloyalty brings the hammer down. Again, not a matter of doctrine or truth but of subjugation. Yet I have to ask if these "screamers" are particularly conservative?
"Screamers" are conservative Catholics. The type of people who talks about apparitions and private revelations all the time.

Well, then, they aren't the same as the priest teaching you that the EO are the same as RC, are they? Knights of Columbus types do their own thing, Catholic-wise, altho they consider themselves the real Catholics.
The Knights of Columbus types of Catholics are screamers. Also, one of  the Catholic monk I know who live in Canada is very upset when he found out I became EO few years ago.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 03:59:30 PM by Anthony1986 »
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #156 on: July 10, 2017, 04:17:59 PM »
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.

Since I was a teenager, I keep hearing the RC priests or religious education teachers saying that RC and EO/OO teach the same things. RC priests and religious education teachers keep saying it is ok for RCs to go to Orthodox priests for communion and confession in case of emergency.
However, when a RC decides to embrace Orthodoxy, RC priests and lay people begin to scream. They said it is schism. It is a mortal sin. You will go to hell for that.

Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.

Mm. Yes well. I think there are two different things here, based on the little I know. First, while it's flattering they say we don't teach heresy. However, as I said before, I think it's a diplomatic plum, like a father telling a teenager to come back home he's forgiven him. Grandiosely paternalistic, I think, but I don't know. But, second, the "beginning to scream" is not over doctrine but loyalty. One can get away with much, and even pretend to be disloyal to Rome personally, but to act on disloyalty brings the hammer down. Again, not a matter of doctrine or truth but of subjugation. Yet I have to ask if these "screamers" are particularly conservative?
"Screamers" are conservative Catholics. The type of people who talks about apparitions and private revelations all the time.

Well, then, they aren't the same as the priest teaching you that the EO are the same as RC, are they? Knights of Columbus types do their own thing, Catholic-wise, altho they consider themselves the real Catholics.
The Knights of Columbus types of Catholics are screamers. Also, one of  the Catholic monk I know who live in Canada is very upset when he found out I became EO few years ago.

I'm sorry. Once you know what is right, you must find friends and acquaintances who will support you in your growth in faith. I am not saying to abandon your old friends or discount their advice out-of-hand. But I am saying to add faithful Orthodox to those you interact with -- it's quite important.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #157 on: July 10, 2017, 04:51:51 PM »
"I'm sorry. Once you know what is right, you must find friends and acquaintances who will support you in your growth in faith. I am not saying to abandon your old friends or discount their advice out-of-hand. But I am saying to add faithful Orthodox to those you interact with -- it's quite important."

I totally agree with you. Also, having a good spiritual father is also important.
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline PJ26

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #158 on: July 10, 2017, 05:16:50 PM »
@Lepanto

My point is that you stated that some dogmas like those contained in the Creed are more important than other dogmas like those contained in Pastor Aeternus.  However, as you recognize, I'm just as much of a heretic, according to the Code of Canon Law, if I deny the Divine substance of the Son as if I deny papal infallibility.  That's Catholicism.

Also, Canon 1364 states:

"an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication"

So to say the teaching on the papacy is somehow less important, less dogmatic doesn't really make sense when the result is the same - the individual who denies papal infallibility or even doubts it is a heretic and an excommunicant.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #159 on: July 10, 2017, 05:51:48 PM »
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.

Since I was a teenager, I keep hearing the RC priests or religious education teachers saying that RC and EO/OO teach the same things. RC priests and religious education teachers keep saying it is ok for RCs to go to Orthodox priests for communion and confession in case of emergency.
However, when a RC decides to embrace Orthodoxy, RC priests and lay people begin to scream. They said it is schism. It is a mortal sin. You will go to hell for that.

Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.
Anthony, remember this is a forum full of converts. All your going to hear here is an echo.

A forum with a lot of converts?  Sure.  A forum full of converts?  That's a bit too much.  Many of us had the faith centuries before it ever got to Germany, and kept it in better condition too. 
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #160 on: July 10, 2017, 05:53:04 PM »
"even doubts it is a heretic and an excommunicant. "

Seriously??? So when people have doubts on certain Catholic Doctrines are mortal sins??? :o

« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 05:59:07 PM by Anthony1986 »
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline PJ26

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #161 on: July 10, 2017, 06:11:42 PM »
A heretic is defined in the Code as one not only who obstinately denies but includes those who obstinately doubt.  Like Lepanto, I'm not a canon lawyer, but all the canons listed in #133 are pretty strict and straightforward.  Sure, post-V2 novus ordo Catholicism isn't going to enforce them, but that's what the law says...

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #162 on: July 10, 2017, 06:25:33 PM »
A heretic is defined in the Code as one not only who obstinately denies but includes those who obstinately doubt.  Like Lepanto, I'm not a canon lawyer, but all the canons listed in #133 are pretty strict and straightforward.  Sure, post-V2 novus ordo Catholicism isn't going to enforce them, but that's what the law says...

Vatican II: Pastoral Constitution -- Rome introduces economia*. Catholicism immediately implodes. Somethin' ain't right with that church.


____
* Granted, the office of casuistry was already granting economia to people who were important enough.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #163 on: July 10, 2017, 09:14:33 PM »
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.

Since I was a teenager, I keep hearing the RC priests or religious education teachers saying that RC and EO/OO teach the same things. RC priests and religious education teachers keep saying it is ok for RCs to go to Orthodox priests for communion and confession in case of emergency.
However, when a RC decides to embrace Orthodoxy, RC priests and lay people begin to scream. They said it is schism. It is a mortal sin. You will go to hell for that.

Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.
Anthony, remember this is a forum full of converts. All your going to hear here is an echo.

Yes, I know. If I posted this thread in Catholic answer forum I will get lot of attacks. I know the environment of Catholic answer.
CAF members might tell me don't go to either SSPX or Orthodox church.

At this in OrthodoxChristianty.net there are no personal attacks so far. The environment is more friendly.
Well, yes, because they believe the Catholic church is the true one, and SSPX is acting without the permission of the Pope so is in schism. They might say find a diocesean Latin mass, or one of the orders loyal to Rome that specialize in the old rite like the Fraternal Society of St. Peter ir the Institute of Christ the King Soverign Priest. Or if you like Eastern spirituality find an Eastern Catholic parish.

I'm not sure I would do any better, since I would say since you've been chrismated and the Orthodox Church is the true one, go to the Orthodox parish when you can, or read the Epistle and Gospels and the prayers in the prayer book if you can't.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 09:19:12 PM by Justin Kolodziej »
Quote from: Michael, Pope of Rome
We should fortify ourselves with the truths of the Faith. Our main focus should be to become saints. Unfortunately some spend much of their time in either trying to sort things out or what is worse, trying to convince the world that they are right. If we all aim at sanctifying ourselves, God will intervene and He will straighten things out. We cannot do it without Him.

Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #164 on: July 10, 2017, 10:03:55 PM »
"Many people abide in Rome for the same reasons we remain in our faith. The cult of personality around the Pope gets a lot of attention, but many Catholics just want to be Christians. Personally, I think reducing a church to dogma on which she differs from other churches is fairly artificial and unhelpful. Analytical thinking doesn't do that much of what's necessary to feed the nous."

That sounds really good but it ignores the fact that Catholicism has made dogmatic statements regarding the papacy including at the the last two supposedly ecumenical councils which are infallible and binding on the faithful to the point where denying them results in one being anethamatized.  Those Catholics who just want to be Christians have an obligation to know what their religion teaches and if they reject those teachings they really should think long and hard about whether or not Catholicism is the true faith after all.

I think Porter's point is not that everything is a-ok in the world of Catholic dogma but that, in the lived reality for many Catholics, these official pronouncements are not the bread and butter. In the areas of central importance for them they have a lot of commonality with us. Wagging our fingers at them and saying, "You should know better" isn't necessarily the best place to start in approaching them. Generally speaking, the objection "But your books say x!" can obscure more than illuminate in engaging with any religious community.
Yes. While of course PJ26 is right that there are dogmatic statements about the papacy which are binding for a Catholic,
those are not central to our faith.

The Nicene creed is.
Holy mass is.
Trying to keep HIS commandments is

Honestly, I do not think about the bishop of Rome for weeks at all, unless someone in some forum comments on AL,
infallibility or similar, or he is in the news. In a normal Catholic´s spiritual life, it does not play any role.
Er, the definition of dogmatic is that it's doctrine that's central to your faith, so those papal dogmas are pretty central, even if a normal Catholic doesn't know that their dogma is that it is necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff, as one Pope declared.

But, aside from that, the bishops of Rome haven't had the Creed right since 1014. Of course the normal Catholic, or Orthodox, might not know what relevance the filioque addition has, so it's more fun to bicker over the powers of the Pope of Old Rome :P
Quote from: Michael, Pope of Rome
We should fortify ourselves with the truths of the Faith. Our main focus should be to become saints. Unfortunately some spend much of their time in either trying to sort things out or what is worse, trying to convince the world that they are right. If we all aim at sanctifying ourselves, God will intervene and He will straighten things out. We cannot do it without Him.

Offline ConfusedRC

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #165 on: July 10, 2017, 10:59:14 PM »
To the OP:

I just want you to know that I'm praying for you. As you can see from my forum name, I was once RC. I went down a similar path: went to Novus Ordo Masses, then to Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) at parish churches, then to an SSPX parish, and finally to an independent sedevacantist parish.

It sounds like you want to be EO, but you are worried about what the RC teaches about leaving the church. I sometimes get the same way, but then I remember that they are in error.

Thank you so much confusedRC.  Your experience is so similar to my. I am glad you can overcome the psychological fear. If my follow my heart I will be EO. But the fear of damnation just so strong. I will pray for you also.

In this thread, you have received some tremendous advice.

For me, I was able to get over the "hurdle" by being a bit more simple: I referred to Matthew 7:15-20 (by their fruits you shall know them). As I bounced around, looking for answers, I realized that everywhere I looked (in the RC), I was getting "thornbushes" instead of "fruit."

Take the SSPX for example: they know the Vatican is wrong, yet they want to join them anyway. They're saying "we know the Vatican is in error, but we want to be a part of them, just with our own rules." It makes no sense to me. It's the same thing with the sedevacantist position; they are waiting for a legit pope to be elected, but according to them, there are no valid cardinals or bishops. So, they will never get the pope that they are waiting for.

I'm a doctoral student and I normally enjoy research and bending the mind. But, the reasons that the SSPX and sedevacantists give in their defense defy logic and are void of humility.

The fruits are in the Eastern Orthodox church. You feel it when you are on this forum and when you are at an EO Church. So, I'm confident that you will get past the RC's teaching on EENS.
I am no longer a "confused Roman Catholic" as I joined the Orthodox Church in April 2016.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #166 on: July 10, 2017, 11:15:36 PM »
Yes, I know. If I posted this thread in Catholic answer forum I will get lot of attacks. I know the environment of Catholic answer.
CAF has a hair trigger and has banned me several times for merely venting my doubts or pointing out the public moral failings of bishops.  ???
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #167 on: July 10, 2017, 11:16:51 PM »
Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.
Too many?  No, there's still room for you and I.  ;)   Expect it to be no different in Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 11:17:14 PM by Sharbel »
Sanctus Deus
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #168 on: July 10, 2017, 11:24:42 PM »
Anytime the subject comes up, I see Catholics adding further qualifications, some of which directly contradict the Vatican I definition. For instance, the Pope must consult with the rest of the Church before decreeing anything, or the Pope cannot contradict ecumenical councils.
Therefore they either do not know their faith or they do not believe it.  For papal supremacy is "supreme, full and universal, but also immediate" (Pastor aeternus, Chap. 3).  And "there is no other authority to which the Roman Pontiff must juridically answer for his exercise of the gift he has received" (ibid).
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 11:25:01 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #169 on: July 11, 2017, 02:48:36 AM »
"Many people abide in Rome for the same reasons we remain in our faith. The cult of personality around the Pope gets a lot of attention, but many Catholics just want to be Christians. Personally, I think reducing a church to dogma on which she differs from other churches is fairly artificial and unhelpful. Analytical thinking doesn't do that much of what's necessary to feed the nous."

That sounds really good but it ignores the fact that Catholicism has made dogmatic statements regarding the papacy including at the the last two supposedly ecumenical councils which are infallible and binding on the faithful to the point where denying them results in one being anethamatized.  Those Catholics who just want to be Christians have an obligation to know what their religion teaches and if they reject those teachings they really should think long and hard about whether or not Catholicism is the true faith after all.

I think Porter's point is not that everything is a-ok in the world of Catholic dogma but that, in the lived reality for many Catholics, these official pronouncements are not the bread and butter. In the areas of central importance for them they have a lot of commonality with us. Wagging our fingers at them and saying, "You should know better" isn't necessarily the best place to start in approaching them. Generally speaking, the objection "But your books say x!" can obscure more than illuminate in engaging with any religious community.
Yes. While of course PJ26 is right that there are dogmatic statements about the papacy which are binding for a Catholic,
those are not central to our faith.

The Nicene creed is.
Holy mass is.
Trying to keep HIS commandments is

Honestly, I do not think about the bishop of Rome for weeks at all, unless someone in some forum comments on AL,
infallibility or similar, or he is in the news. In a normal Catholic´s spiritual life, it does not play any role.
Er, the definition of dogmatic is that it's doctrine that's central to your faith, so those papal dogmas are pretty central, even if a normal Catholic doesn't know that their dogma is that it is necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff, as one Pope declared.

But, aside from that, the bishops of Rome haven't had the Creed right since 1014. Of course the normal Catholic, or Orthodox, might not know what relevance the filioque addition has, so it's more fun to bicker over the powers of the Pope of Old Rome :P

Any Orthodox-Catholic discussion would not be the real thing without mentioning the filioque at least once.
I have never seen a pope let alone talked to one, I hardly ever think about papal dogmas unless I am on OC.net.
On the other hand, I think about the trinity every day. Now, as you say, denial of either of the two could potentially make me a heretic just the same.
But our faith is not really about avoiding to become a heretic, as much as you want to bend the discussion in that direction.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 02:49:46 AM by Lepanto »
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Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #170 on: July 11, 2017, 04:21:33 AM »
To the OP:

I just want you to know that I'm praying for you. As you can see from my forum name, I was once RC. I went down a similar path: went to Novus Ordo Masses, then to Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) at parish churches, then to an SSPX parish, and finally to an independent sedevacantist parish.

It sounds like you want to be EO, but you are worried about what the RC teaches about leaving the church. I sometimes get the same way, but then I remember that they are in error.

Thank you so much confusedRC.  Your experience is so similar to my. I am glad you can overcome the psychological fear. If my follow my heart I will be EO. But the fear of damnation just so strong. I will pray for you also.

In this thread, you have received some tremendous advice.

For me, I was able to get over the "hurdle" by being a bit more simple: I referred to Matthew 7:15-20 (by their fruits you shall know them). As I bounced around, looking for answers, I realized that everywhere I looked (in the RC), I was getting "thornbushes" instead of "fruit."

Take the SSPX for example: they know the Vatican is wrong, yet they want to join them anyway. They're saying "we know the Vatican is in error, but we want to be a part of them, just with our own rules." It makes no sense to me. It's the same thing with the sedevacantist position; they are waiting for a legit pope to be elected, but according to them, there are no valid cardinals or bishops. So, they will never get the pope that they are waiting for.

I'm a doctoral student and I normally enjoy research and bending the mind. But, the reasons that the SSPX and sedevacantists give in their defense defy logic and are void of humility.

The fruits are in the Eastern Orthodox church. You feel it when you are on this forum and when you are at an EO Church. So, I'm confident that you will get past the RC's teaching on EENS.

SSPX they criticize Rome publicly, however, they do many secrete discussions with Rome many times. They don't want to accept Vatican II but still want to be part of RC. SSPX position of recognize and resist  position doesn't make much sense.
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #171 on: July 11, 2017, 04:29:10 AM »
"The fruits are in the Eastern Orthodox church. You feel it when you are on this forum and when you are at an EO Church. So, I'm confident that you will get past the RC's teaching on EENS."

Totally agree. This forum compare with other religious discussion forum, OC.net is much more friendly, and tolerance. The people I talk to in EO are usually kind and charitable.
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline ConfusedRC

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #172 on: July 11, 2017, 09:51:32 AM »
"The fruits are in the Eastern Orthodox church. You feel it when you are on this forum and when you are at an EO Church. So, I'm confident that you will get past the RC's teaching on EENS."

Totally agree. This forum compare with other religious discussion forum, OC.net is much more friendly, and tolerance. The people I talk to in EO are usually kind and charitable.

Here's a book to show you the fruits of the EO church:

https://www.amazon.com/Everyday-Saints-Stories-Archimandrite-Shevkunov-ebook/dp/B00AZM6MM8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499780935&sr=8-1&keywords=everyday+saints

It is an amazing story of present day priests and monks in Russia. I have read it once and I will be reading it again.
I am no longer a "confused Roman Catholic" as I joined the Orthodox Church in April 2016.

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #173 on: July 11, 2017, 02:28:57 PM »
"The fruits are in the Eastern Orthodox church. You feel it when you are on this forum and when you are at an EO Church. So, I'm confident that you will get past the RC's teaching on EENS."

Totally agree. This forum compare with other religious discussion forum, OC.net is much more friendly, and tolerance. The people I talk to in EO are usually kind and charitable.

Here's a book to show you the fruits of the EO church:

https://www.amazon.com/Everyday-Saints-Stories-Archimandrite-Shevkunov-ebook/dp/B00AZM6MM8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499780935&sr=8-1&keywords=everyday+saints

It is an amazing story of present day priests and monks in Russia. I have read it once and I will be reading it again.


Thank you so much for sharing.
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #174 on: July 11, 2017, 04:18:02 PM »
Question about filioque .

Didn't filioque  add in the creed in Spain before the Great Schism?
In 500-600 filioque already added in Spain and the East has no objection?

Can anyone review the history of filioque for me? Because I am confuse.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 04:22:22 PM by Anthony1986 »
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #175 on: July 12, 2017, 02:45:59 AM »
Question about filioque .

Didn't filioque  add in the creed in Spain before the Great Schism?
In 500-600 filioque already added in Spain and the East has no objection?

Can anyone review the history of filioque for me? Because I am confuse.
This has been discussed hundreds of times on this forum already:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=search
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #176 on: July 13, 2017, 06:37:46 PM »
Listen to the following true story.

In Romania orthodox romanian fought war with people of catholic rite and orthodox won. They wanted to build a Church . Orthodox wanted an orthodox Church and Catholics wanted a Catholic Church.
Catholics said lets debate but orthodox said no, lets ask God. So they decided to have Catholics make Holy Water and Orthodox make Holy Water. They decided to close the Holy water in a Church for 3 days and then which Holy water is crisp and good this is the true Church.
So they made Holy Water nad put in a Church for 3 days and prayed to God to show the true Church . After 3 days they open the Holy water and orthodox Holy water was crisp and Catholic was foul smelling bad. So Orthodox is true Church.

How can you be punished from moving to true Church from Catholic? I rather heard you can be punished moving from orthodox to Catholics.

If you want to go to the Best, go to an Russian Orthodox Church because in Legend of the white cowl the angel said the Russian Orthodox Chuch will remain true until the end.
God the Father is great. God the Father is good.

Offline pasadi97

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #177 on: July 13, 2017, 06:47:09 PM »
The story is recorded in the book "Letopisetul Tarii Moldovei" and the winner of the battle was Michael the Great.
Even today if you take Catholic Holy Water and Orthodox Holy Water, Orthodox Holy Water remains crisp for years and Catholic Holy Water remains bad soon. Because they changed the process of making Holy Water they need to add salt. Take Catholic and Orthodox Holy Water and compare.
They changed a lot of things.

So Orthodox is true Church. Moving to true Church is a b;lessing. Moving from true Church may be a sin and you may end in Hell. So, once orthodox always orthodox since there is no better and to go to worse may get punished.
God the Father is great. God the Father is good.

Offline pasadi97

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #178 on: July 13, 2017, 07:00:19 PM »
Another story. A protestant woman enters Catholic Church and pray to Saint Francisc to show the true Church. She is shown a vision of Saint Serafim of sarov and understands Orthodox is the true Church.

Ask God and find the answer.
God the Father is great. God the Father is good.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
« Reply #179 on: July 13, 2017, 09:30:52 PM »
Another story. A protestant woman enters Catholic Church and pray to Saint Francisc to show the true Church. She is shown a vision of Saint Serafim of sarov and understands Orthodox is the true Church.

Ask God and find the answer.

It's hard to beat 70,000 people watching the sun "dance" in Fatima, Portugal on 13 October 1917.
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.