Author Topic: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?  (Read 3585 times)

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Offline William T

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2017, 05:50:30 PM »
If they turn it into a mosque, then the tourism industry will lose a ton of $$ (since then they won't be able to charge admission) and interest (the whole place will smell like feet again)... all for yet another mosque not filled to capacity in Istanbul / Constantinople.  The only upside for the religious types in Turkey: PR victory.

To the earlier question: The status of Agia Sophia has not affected the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 564 years (since it was taken away).  If it were converted to a mosque the parts that would be truly threatened are the icons, since those would be considered blasphemous for a mosque.

Do mosques have an unpleasant odor as a result of the bare feet thing?   I had always assumed rhey burned oil or incense in them between services to dispell any nasty odors, but if that's not the case, if in fact they stink, my interests in visiting one just took a plunge.

Fun fact: several of the major state-run mosques in Istanbul have identical carpeting (take a look at pictures of their interiors online and you'll notice evidence of matching furniture and other cost-cutting).  This now makes sense if due to reasons of odor they have to change the carpet every few years.

I had thought the whole point of the ablutions was to prevent such odors, but apparently many Muslims skip the required foot-washing.  What had grossed me out more about the prospect of mosque visitarion was nasal and saliva drippage on the carpet.

Constantinople is Hanafi territory, but ISIL, the Saudis and Salafis and orher undesirables tend to be Hanbalis, and Hanbalis do this rather gay foot-interlocking thing during prayer.  A few non-Muslims have successfully impersonated Muslims in order to see Mecca, but my view is the overall praxis of Islam, even superficially during Islamic prayer, is just a bit too gross, especially if as you say, the mosques stink.

It's amazing that Americans wear shoes in their churches and homes, shoes that walk on ground polluted with motor oil, dog feces, spittle, garbage, urine, diseases, and all manner of vile filth, and think their churches and homes are clean, but let them even think of a church or other house of worship where people walk in barefoot and they're paralysed with fear.

My limited experience with entering mosques is that they look and smell like a poorly converted doctor's office.

The new one that has gone up near my hometown is apparently more along the lines of traditional Islamic architecture. I'll have to drop by and see some time.

This is the mosque in Toledo  (my home town):



I've been there a few times for some friend of family events / Syrian/ Lebanese stuff.   It has some modern tweeks in the design,  but it's  an impressive  looking place.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 05:51:47 PM by William T »

Offline Alkis

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #46 on: July 05, 2017, 05:51:59 PM »
I hope that this will not happen. Although I fear that it might happen. As a Greek I will be really upset and sad. But when I think about what some christians experience in our days due to islamic terrorism...
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #47 on: July 05, 2017, 07:13:25 PM »
If they turn it into a mosque, then the tourism industry will lose a ton of $$ (since then they won't be able to charge admission) and interest (the whole place will smell like feet again)... all for yet another mosque not filled to capacity in Istanbul / Constantinople.  The only upside for the religious types in Turkey: PR victory.

To the earlier question: The status of Agia Sophia has not affected the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 564 years (since it was taken away).  If it were converted to a mosque the parts that would be truly threatened are the icons, since those would be considered blasphemous for a mosque.

Do mosques have an unpleasant odor as a result of the bare feet thing?   I had always assumed rhey burned oil or incense in them between services to dispell any nasty odors, but if that's not the case, if in fact they stink, my interests in visiting one just took a plunge.

Fun fact: several of the major state-run mosques in Istanbul have identical carpeting (take a look at pictures of their interiors online and you'll notice evidence of matching furniture and other cost-cutting).  This now makes sense if due to reasons of odor they have to change the carpet every few years.

I had thought the whole point of the ablutions was to prevent such odors, but apparently many Muslims skip the required foot-washing.  What had grossed me out more about the prospect of mosque visitarion was nasal and saliva drippage on the carpet.

Constantinople is Hanafi territory, but ISIL, the Saudis and Salafis and orher undesirables tend to be Hanbalis, and Hanbalis do this rather gay foot-interlocking thing during prayer.  A few non-Muslims have successfully impersonated Muslims in order to see Mecca, but my view is the overall praxis of Islam, even superficially during Islamic prayer, is just a bit too gross, especially if as you say, the mosques stink.

It's amazing that Americans wear shoes in their churches and homes, shoes that walk on ground polluted with motor oil, dog feces, spittle, garbage, urine, diseases, and all manner of vile filth, and think their churches and homes are clean, but let them even think of a church or other house of worship where people walk in barefoot and they're paralysed with fear.

Walking barefoot in a Coptic parish doesn't bother me one bit.  I enjoy it, in fact; in Exodus did God not tell Moses to remove his shoes?  Metropolitan Kallistos Ware extrapolates on this a bit.   I feel close to God and close to my brethren when worshippimg in a Coproc church, unusually so; there is a sense of inclusion.

However, mosques are a different animal; Muslims have strange hygenic customs partially dictated by hadith, and some Muslims do strange things.

So if mosques do stink, it would not surprise me. 
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2017, 07:16:58 PM »
If they turn it into a mosque, then the tourism industry will lose a ton of $$ (since then they won't be able to charge admission) and interest (the whole place will smell like feet again)... all for yet another mosque not filled to capacity in Istanbul / Constantinople.  The only upside for the religious types in Turkey: PR victory.

To the earlier question: The status of Agia Sophia has not affected the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 564 years (since it was taken away).  If it were converted to a mosque the parts that would be truly threatened are the icons, since those would be considered blasphemous for a mosque.

Do mosques have an unpleasant odor as a result of the bare feet thing?   I had always assumed rhey burned oil or incense in them between services to dispell any nasty odors, but if that's not the case, if in fact they stink, my interests in visiting one just took a plunge.

Fun fact: several of the major state-run mosques in Istanbul have identical carpeting (take a look at pictures of their interiors online and you'll notice evidence of matching furniture and other cost-cutting).  This now makes sense if due to reasons of odor they have to change the carpet every few years.

I had thought the whole point of the ablutions was to prevent such odors, but apparently many Muslims skip the required foot-washing.  What had grossed me out more about the prospect of mosque visitarion was nasal and saliva drippage on the carpet.

Constantinople is Hanafi territory, but ISIL, the Saudis and Salafis and orher undesirables tend to be Hanbalis, and Hanbalis do this rather gay foot-interlocking thing during prayer.  A few non-Muslims have successfully impersonated Muslims in order to see Mecca, but my view is the overall praxis of Islam, even superficially during Islamic prayer, is just a bit too gross, especially if as you say, the mosques stink.

It's amazing that Americans wear shoes in their churches and homes, shoes that walk on ground polluted with motor oil, dog feces, spittle, garbage, urine, diseases, and all manner of vile filth, and think their churches and homes are clean, but let them even think of a church or other house of worship where people walk in barefoot and they're paralysed with fear.

+1

What a stupid remark about the "bare feet" thing.  All but one of our Oriental Orthodox Churches require worshippers to remove their shoes upon entry.  None of them stink.

Yeah, but you're Christians.

Precisely.  And we also use incense.

I have no hang ups about bare feet.  But if Fr. George says that mosques stink, that's something to keep in mind.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2017, 08:22:34 PM »
If they turn it into a mosque, then the tourism industry will lose a ton of $$ (since then they won't be able to charge admission) and interest (the whole place will smell like feet again)... all for yet another mosque not filled to capacity in Istanbul / Constantinople.  The only upside for the religious types in Turkey: PR victory.

To the earlier question: The status of Agia Sophia has not affected the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 564 years (since it was taken away).  If it were converted to a mosque the parts that would be truly threatened are the icons, since those would be considered blasphemous for a mosque.

Do mosques have an unpleasant odor as a result of the bare feet thing?   I had always assumed rhey burned oil or incense in them between services to dispell any nasty odors, but if that's not the case, if in fact they stink, my interests in visiting one just took a plunge.

Fun fact: several of the major state-run mosques in Istanbul have identical carpeting (take a look at pictures of their interiors online and you'll notice evidence of matching furniture and other cost-cutting).  This now makes sense if due to reasons of odor they have to change the carpet every few years.

I had thought the whole point of the ablutions was to prevent such odors, but apparently many Muslims skip the required foot-washing.  What had grossed me out more about the prospect of mosque visitarion was nasal and saliva drippage on the carpet.

Constantinople is Hanafi territory, but ISIL, the Saudis and Salafis and orher undesirables tend to be Hanbalis, and Hanbalis do this rather gay foot-interlocking thing during prayer.  A few non-Muslims have successfully impersonated Muslims in order to see Mecca, but my view is the overall praxis of Islam, even superficially during Islamic prayer, is just a bit too gross, especially if as you say, the mosques stink.

It's amazing that Americans wear shoes in their churches and homes, shoes that walk on ground polluted with motor oil, dog feces, spittle, garbage, urine, diseases, and all manner of vile filth, and think their churches and homes are clean, but let them even think of a church or other house of worship where people walk in barefoot and they're paralysed with fear.

Walking barefoot in a Coptic parish doesn't bother me one bit.  I enjoy it, in fact; in Exodus did God not tell Moses to remove his shoes?  Metropolitan Kallistos Ware extrapolates on this a bit.   I feel close to God and close to my brethren when worshippimg in a Coproc church, unusually so; there is a sense of inclusion.

However, mosques are a different animal; Muslims have strange hygenic customs partially dictated by hadith, and some Muslims do strange things.

So if mosques do stink, it would not surprise me.



Are you seriously suggesting that the reason OO churches don't stink even though everyone enters barefoot is because incense is covering the smell?  Have you ever actually been to an OO church?
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #50 on: July 05, 2017, 09:13:13 PM »
Nope.

I've never smelled anything foul in an OO church.   

My point was rather, they smell so lovely even an unpleasant odor would be unnoticeable, but I've yet to smell someone so much as pass gas in one of our churches.  I do smell a lot of decent cologne and lovely perfume, amd then in tje Coptic church there is the odor of the antidoron in the oven, being baked.  Coptic antidoron is the best tasting bread.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2017, 09:31:12 PM »
Ah the way the perfume bursts into bloom with the flip of a veil.
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2017, 10:34:16 PM »
If they turn it into a mosque, then the tourism industry will lose a ton of $$ (since then they won't be able to charge admission) and interest (the whole place will smell like feet again)... all for yet another mosque not filled to capacity in Istanbul / Constantinople.  The only upside for the religious types in Turkey: PR victory.

To the earlier question: The status of Agia Sophia has not affected the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 564 years (since it was taken away).  If it were converted to a mosque the parts that would be truly threatened are the icons, since those would be considered blasphemous for a mosque.

Do mosques have an unpleasant odor as a result of the bare feet thing?   I had always assumed rhey burned oil or incense in them between services to dispell any nasty odors, but if that's not the case, if in fact they stink, my interests in visiting one just took a plunge.

Fun fact: several of the major state-run mosques in Istanbul have identical carpeting (take a look at pictures of their interiors online and you'll notice evidence of matching furniture and other cost-cutting).  This now makes sense if due to reasons of odor they have to change the carpet every few years.

I had thought the whole point of the ablutions was to prevent such odors, but apparently many Muslims skip the required foot-washing.  What had grossed me out more about the prospect of mosque visitarion was nasal and saliva drippage on the carpet.

Constantinople is Hanafi territory, but ISIL, the Saudis and Salafis and orher undesirables tend to be Hanbalis, and Hanbalis do this rather gay foot-interlocking thing during prayer.  A few non-Muslims have successfully impersonated Muslims in order to see Mecca, but my view is the overall praxis of Islam, even superficially during Islamic prayer, is just a bit too gross, especially if as you say, the mosques stink.

It's amazing that Americans wear shoes in their churches and homes, shoes that walk on ground polluted with motor oil, dog feces, spittle, garbage, urine, diseases, and all manner of vile filth, and think their churches and homes are clean, but let them even think of a church or other house of worship where people walk in barefoot and they're paralysed with fear. 

I've been to one Coptic Church (in Cleveland) - no foot odor.  Only went inside one mosque (Blue Mosque, twice) - major foot odor (I was on the outside of a few others in Constantinople / Istanbul, basically to study the classical church architecture that has been maintained by some of the older mosques in The City).  It's all I have to go on.  I don't intend on visiting any other Mosques.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 10:42:46 PM by Fr. George »
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Offline youssef

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2017, 10:34:26 PM »
Doubt it will not happen under erdogan rule.

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2017, 10:39:51 PM »
The Blue Mosque did not smell like feet when I visited. 

I've been there twice - once in June 2006, once in January 2013.  Stank both times (but worse in June - the first time my eyes watered) - and before anyone else says it, no, I wasn't just smelling my own feet (would that be the mosque version of "it's just your upper lip").  I think the mosaic tiling is beautiful (all produced in Nicea / Iznik), the overhead contraption is distracting, and the columns are just too big - they distract from the view inside the building (exhibit #1 of their engineers' inability to replicate the interior effect of Agia Sophia).  People were very kind.
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2017, 10:47:58 PM »
If they turn it into a mosque, then the tourism industry will lose a ton of $$ (since then they won't be able to charge admission) and interest (the whole place will smell like feet again)... all for yet another mosque not filled to capacity in Istanbul / Constantinople.  The only upside for the religious types in Turkey: PR victory.

To the earlier question: The status of Agia Sophia has not affected the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 564 years (since it was taken away).  If it were converted to a mosque the parts that would be truly threatened are the icons, since those would be considered blasphemous for a mosque.

Do mosques have an unpleasant odor as a result of the bare feet thing?   I had always assumed rhey burned oil or incense in them between services to dispell any nasty odors, but if that's not the case, if in fact they stink, my interests in visiting one just took a plunge.

Fun fact: several of the major state-run mosques in Istanbul have identical carpeting (take a look at pictures of their interiors online and you'll notice evidence of matching furniture and other cost-cutting).  This now makes sense if due to reasons of odor they have to change the carpet every few years.

I had thought the whole point of the ablutions was to prevent such odors, but apparently many Muslims skip the required foot-washing.  What had grossed me out more about the prospect of mosque visitarion was nasal and saliva drippage on the carpet.

Constantinople is Hanafi territory, but ISIL, the Saudis and Salafis and orher undesirables tend to be Hanbalis, and Hanbalis do this rather gay foot-interlocking thing during prayer.  A few non-Muslims have successfully impersonated Muslims in order to see Mecca, but my view is the overall praxis of Islam, even superficially during Islamic prayer, is just a bit too gross, especially if as you say, the mosques stink.

It's amazing that Americans wear shoes in their churches and homes, shoes that walk on ground polluted with motor oil, dog feces, spittle, garbage, urine, diseases, and all manner of vile filth, and think their churches and homes are clean, but let them even think of a church or other house of worship where people walk in barefoot and they're paralysed with fear. 

+1

What a stupid remark about the "bare feet" thing.  All but one of our Oriental Orthodox Churches require worshippers to remove their shoes upon entry.  None of them stink.

I'll pretend that your comment is about my comment.  I can only go based on my experience (as I stated above) - no stink in the only Coptic Church I've been in (St. Mark's in Cleveland), major stink in the Blue Mosque.  But the Old City in Istanbul (i.e. what actually used to be Constantinople) is a dirty place - I've been walking in the neighborhoods just outside Sultanahmet (the area where the Blue Mosque, Hippodrome ruins, Agia Sophia, and Topkapi Palace are), and they're filthy.  The only places that looked well-maintained were tourist destinations, places in the modern part of the city (Asian side, 20th century buildings)... and the Orthodox places (Churches, monasteries, etc.). 

(The Orthodox places were the only ones with gardens and other nice landscaping besides some of the big places, like Dolembache Palace, that we visited.)
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2017, 10:59:21 PM »
If they turn it into a mosque, then the tourism industry will lose a ton of $$ (since then they won't be able to charge admission) and interest (the whole place will smell like feet again)... all for yet another mosque not filled to capacity in Istanbul / Constantinople.  The only upside for the religious types in Turkey: PR victory.

To the earlier question: The status of Agia Sophia has not affected the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 564 years (since it was taken away).  If it were converted to a mosque the parts that would be truly threatened are the icons, since those would be considered blasphemous for a mosque.

Do mosques have an unpleasant odor as a result of the bare feet thing?   I had always assumed rhey burned oil or incense in them between services to dispell any nasty odors, but if that's not the case, if in fact they stink, my interests in visiting one just took a plunge.

Fun fact: several of the major state-run mosques in Istanbul have identical carpeting (take a look at pictures of their interiors online and you'll notice evidence of matching furniture and other cost-cutting).  This now makes sense if due to reasons of odor they have to change the carpet every few years.

I had thought the whole point of the ablutions was to prevent such odors, but apparently many Muslims skip the required foot-washing.  What had grossed me out more about the prospect of mosque visitarion was nasal and saliva drippage on the carpet.

Constantinople is Hanafi territory, but ISIL, the Saudis and Salafis and orher undesirables tend to be Hanbalis, and Hanbalis do this rather gay foot-interlocking thing during prayer.  A few non-Muslims have successfully impersonated Muslims in order to see Mecca, but my view is the overall praxis of Islam, even superficially during Islamic prayer, is just a bit too gross, especially if as you say, the mosques stink.

It's amazing that Americans wear shoes in their churches and homes, shoes that walk on ground polluted with motor oil, dog feces, spittle, garbage, urine, diseases, and all manner of vile filth, and think their churches and homes are clean, but let them even think of a church or other house of worship where people walk in barefoot and they're paralysed with fear.

Walking barefoot in a Coptic parish doesn't bother me one bit.  I enjoy it, in fact; in Exodus did God not tell Moses to remove his shoes?  Metropolitan Kallistos Ware extrapolates on this a bit.   I feel close to God and close to my brethren when worshippimg in a Coproc church, unusually so; there is a sense of inclusion.

However, mosques are a different animal; Muslims have strange hygenic customs partially dictated by hadith, and some Muslims do strange things.

So if mosques do stink, it would not surprise me.

Utterly ridiculous.  Houses of worship in which people remove their shoes don't stink or not based on your opinion of their faith.  Feet are feet.  Stop embarrassing yourself.

Nope.

I've never smelled anything foul in an OO church.   

My point was rather, they smell so lovely even an unpleasant odor would be unnoticeable, but I've yet to smell someone so much as pass gas in one of our churches.  I do smell a lot of decent cologne and lovely perfume, amd then in tje Coptic church there is the odor of the antidoron in the oven, being baked.  Coptic antidoron is the best tasting bread.

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Ah the way the perfume bursts into bloom with the flip of a veil.



If they turn it into a mosque, then the tourism industry will lose a ton of $$ (since then they won't be able to charge admission) and interest (the whole place will smell like feet again)... all for yet another mosque not filled to capacity in Istanbul / Constantinople.  The only upside for the religious types in Turkey: PR victory.

To the earlier question: The status of Agia Sophia has not affected the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 564 years (since it was taken away).  If it were converted to a mosque the parts that would be truly threatened are the icons, since those would be considered blasphemous for a mosque.

Do mosques have an unpleasant odor as a result of the bare feet thing?   I had always assumed rhey burned oil or incense in them between services to dispell any nasty odors, but if that's not the case, if in fact they stink, my interests in visiting one just took a plunge.

Fun fact: several of the major state-run mosques in Istanbul have identical carpeting (take a look at pictures of their interiors online and you'll notice evidence of matching furniture and other cost-cutting).  This now makes sense if due to reasons of odor they have to change the carpet every few years.

I had thought the whole point of the ablutions was to prevent such odors, but apparently many Muslims skip the required foot-washing.  What had grossed me out more about the prospect of mosque visitarion was nasal and saliva drippage on the carpet.

Constantinople is Hanafi territory, but ISIL, the Saudis and Salafis and orher undesirables tend to be Hanbalis, and Hanbalis do this rather gay foot-interlocking thing during prayer.  A few non-Muslims have successfully impersonated Muslims in order to see Mecca, but my view is the overall praxis of Islam, even superficially during Islamic prayer, is just a bit too gross, especially if as you say, the mosques stink.

It's amazing that Americans wear shoes in their churches and homes, shoes that walk on ground polluted with motor oil, dog feces, spittle, garbage, urine, diseases, and all manner of vile filth, and think their churches and homes are clean, but let them even think of a church or other house of worship where people walk in barefoot and they're paralysed with fear. 

+1

What a stupid remark about the "bare feet" thing.  All but one of our Oriental Orthodox Churches require worshippers to remove their shoes upon entry.  None of them stink.

I'll pretend that your comment is about my comment.  I can only go based on my experience (as I stated above) - no stink in the only Coptic Church I've been in (St. Mark's in Cleveland), major stink in the Blue Mosque.  But the Old City in Istanbul (i.e. what actually used to be Constantinople) is a dirty place - I've been walking in the neighborhoods just outside Sultanahmet (the area where the Blue Mosque, Hippodrome ruins, Agia Sophia, and Topkapi Palace are), and they're filthy.  The only places that looked well-maintained were tourist destinations, places in the modern part of the city (Asian side, 20th century buildings)... and the Orthodox places (Churches, monasteries, etc.). 

(The Orthodox places were the only ones with gardens and other nice landscaping besides some of the big places, like Dolembache Palace, that we visited.)

I've been in a few mosques, Father.  No stink.  I've been in one Hindu temple.  No stink.  I've been in a fancy Japanese restaurant in which people were required to remove their shoes.  No stink.  I've been in literally dozens of Oriental Orthodox (Coptic, Syriac, Indian, Eritrean, and Ethiopian) churches in which the worshippers removed their shoes.  No stink.  It seems to me, Father, that you made either an errant observation based on limited experience or a bad joke about how the Hagia Sophia would "smell like feet" if it became a mosque because the worshippers there would be removing their shoes.  I understand that this is what people growing up in Western cultures in which closed shoes that promote foot odor might think.  It simply doesn't sync up with my experience though.  The remark also triggered Alpha60 to pen a silly thesis about how Muslim feet would stink the joint up more than Christian feet for some reason, because, you know, BO is directly related to theological purity.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 11:10:27 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline coptic orthodox boy

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #57 on: July 05, 2017, 11:20:49 PM »

Frank Costanza approves of this thread.

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2017, 01:31:52 AM »
If they turn it into a mosque, then the tourism industry will lose a ton of $$ (since then they won't be able to charge admission) and interest (the whole place will smell like feet again)... all for yet another mosque not filled to capacity in Istanbul / Constantinople.  The only upside for the religious types in Turkey: PR victory.

To the earlier question: The status of Agia Sophia has not affected the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 564 years (since it was taken away).  If it were converted to a mosque the parts that would be truly threatened are the icons, since those would be considered blasphemous for a mosque.

Do mosques have an unpleasant odor as a result of the bare feet thing?   I had always assumed rhey burned oil or incense in them between services to dispell any nasty odors, but if that's not the case, if in fact they stink, my interests in visiting one just took a plunge.

Fun fact: several of the major state-run mosques in Istanbul have identical carpeting (take a look at pictures of their interiors online and you'll notice evidence of matching furniture and other cost-cutting).  This now makes sense if due to reasons of odor they have to change the carpet every few years.

I had thought the whole point of the ablutions was to prevent such odors, but apparently many Muslims skip the required foot-washing.  What had grossed me out more about the prospect of mosque visitarion was nasal and saliva drippage on the carpet.

Constantinople is Hanafi territory, but ISIL, the Saudis and Salafis and orher undesirables tend to be Hanbalis, and Hanbalis do this rather gay foot-interlocking thing during prayer.  A few non-Muslims have successfully impersonated Muslims in order to see Mecca, but my view is the overall praxis of Islam, even superficially during Islamic prayer, is just a bit too gross, especially if as you say, the mosques stink.

It's amazing that Americans wear shoes in their churches and homes, shoes that walk on ground polluted with motor oil, dog feces, spittle, garbage, urine, diseases, and all manner of vile filth, and think their churches and homes are clean, but let them even think of a church or other house of worship where people walk in barefoot and they're paralysed with fear.

NYC is nasty.
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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2017, 01:33:25 AM »
When was the last martyrdom of a Constantinopolitan hierarch?
The last EP martyred was st. Gregory V in 1821.
The front gate of the Patriarchate (the place of st. Gregory's martyrdom) remains locked since then:


The last two archierachs martyred, under the EP's omophorion were st. Chrysostomos of Smyrna (1922), and st. Prokopios of Iconium (1923).
Quote from: Met. Kalistos Ware
In the early hours of 29 May the last Christian service was held in the great Church of the Holy Wisdom. It was a united service of Orthodox and Roman Catholics... The Emperor went out after receiving communion, and died fighting on the walls. Later the same day the city fell to the Turks, and the most glorious church in Christendom became a mosque.
There's this tradition amongst the pious orthodox here in Greece, that the last Orthodox service (of the opposing party to the Orthodox-Catholic union) was held in the current Patriarchal Cathedral, st. George, in the Phanar.

Thanks, Apostolos.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 01:34:11 AM by hecma925 »
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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2017, 01:41:55 PM »
If they turn it into a mosque, then the tourism industry will lose a ton of $$ (since then they won't be able to charge admission) and interest (the whole place will smell like feet again)... all for yet another mosque not filled to capacity in Istanbul / Constantinople.  The only upside for the religious types in Turkey: PR victory.

To the earlier question: The status of Agia Sophia has not affected the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 564 years (since it was taken away).  If it were converted to a mosque the parts that would be truly threatened are the icons, since those would be considered blasphemous for a mosque.

Do mosques have an unpleasant odor as a result of the bare feet thing?   I had always assumed rhey burned oil or incense in them between services to dispell any nasty odors, but if that's not the case, if in fact they stink, my interests in visiting one just took a plunge.

Fun fact: several of the major state-run mosques in Istanbul have identical carpeting (take a look at pictures of their interiors online and you'll notice evidence of matching furniture and other cost-cutting).  This now makes sense if due to reasons of odor they have to change the carpet every few years.

I had thought the whole point of the ablutions was to prevent such odors, but apparently many Muslims skip the required foot-washing.  What had grossed me out more about the prospect of mosque visitarion was nasal and saliva drippage on the carpet.

Constantinople is Hanafi territory, but ISIL, the Saudis and Salafis and orher undesirables tend to be Hanbalis, and Hanbalis do this rather gay foot-interlocking thing during prayer.  A few non-Muslims have successfully impersonated Muslims in order to see Mecca, but my view is the overall praxis of Islam, even superficially during Islamic prayer, is just a bit too gross, especially if as you say, the mosques stink.

It's amazing that Americans wear shoes in their churches and homes, shoes that walk on ground polluted with motor oil, dog feces, spittle, garbage, urine, diseases, and all manner of vile filth, and think their churches and homes are clean, but let them even think of a church or other house of worship where people walk in barefoot and they're paralysed with fear.

NYC is nasty.

Yup. 

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I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #63 on: July 07, 2017, 05:43:23 AM »
Once Islamic, always Islamic. The Islamic supremacism inherent in the religion is the reason why Hagia Sophia will always be a point of contention.
Know your history;

[The Reconquista of the Mosque of Córdoba/b]

Spain’s most famous mosque is at the center of a dispute between activists seeking to preserve its Muslim heritage, and the Catholic Church, which has claimed it as its own. The result could determine the future of Islam in Europe.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/04/10/the-reconquista-of-the-mosque-of-cordoba-spain-catholic-church-islam/

Okay? And Muslims still want it back. Again, once Islamic always Islamic.
But Spain is NOT Islamic. Your point?
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #64 on: July 07, 2017, 05:51:24 AM »
If they turn it into a mosque, then the tourism industry will lose a ton of $$ (since then they won't be able to charge admission) and interest (the whole place will smell like feet again)... all for yet another mosque not filled to capacity in Istanbul / Constantinople.  The only upside for the religious types in Turkey: PR victory.

To the earlier question: The status of Agia Sophia has not affected the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 564 years (since it was taken away).  If it were converted to a mosque the parts that would be truly threatened are the icons, since those would be considered blasphemous for a mosque.

Do mosques have an unpleasant odor as a result of the bare feet thing?   I had always assumed rhey burned oil or incense in them between services to dispell any nasty odors, but if that's not the case, if in fact they stink, my interests in visiting one just took a plunge.

Fun fact: several of the major state-run mosques in Istanbul have identical carpeting (take a look at pictures of their interiors online and you'll notice evidence of matching furniture and other cost-cutting).  This now makes sense if due to reasons of odor they have to change the carpet every few years.

I had thought the whole point of the ablutions was to prevent such odors, but apparently many Muslims skip the required foot-washing.  What had grossed me out more about the prospect of mosque visitarion was nasal and saliva drippage on the carpet.

Constantinople is Hanafi territory, but ISIL, the Saudis and Salafis and orher undesirables tend to be Hanbalis, and Hanbalis do this rather gay foot-interlocking thing during prayer.  A few non-Muslims have successfully impersonated Muslims in order to see Mecca, but my view is the overall praxis of Islam, even superficially during Islamic prayer, is just a bit too gross, especially if as you say, the mosques stink.

It's amazing that Americans wear shoes in their churches and homes, shoes that walk on ground polluted with motor oil, dog feces, spittle, garbage, urine, diseases, and all manner of vile filth, and think their churches and homes are clean, but let them even think of a church or other house of worship where people walk in barefoot and they're paralysed with fear.
This is a good point. In our house, as was in mine were I was raised, we more or less removed our shoes after coming in from outside, especially in the winter or if it was raining. We never liked the idea of any residue from  the outside dirt and pollution coming into the house on the carpets or floors. But, rarely did we go barefoot as that was not allowed for the most part either. Usually we kept indoor slippers or kept our socks on as well, the idea of one's barefeet was not seen sanitary or attractive as either. This was/is personally bothersome for me since I prefer to walk barefoot myself.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 05:51:59 AM by Charles Martel »
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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2017, 06:04:13 AM »
Quote
  It seems to me, Father, that you made either an errant observation based on limited experience or a bad joke about how the Hagia Sophia would "smell like feet" if it became a mosque because the worshippers there would be removing their shoes.  I understand that this is what people growing up in Western cultures in which closed shoes that promote foot odor might think.  It simply doesn't sync up with my experience though.
I think you're wrong on this AN, what FR. says perfectly makes sense to me. The fact of the matter is, is that most mosques are usually "carpeted" and carpet will absorb the sweat and funk of the bottom of popel's feet much more than if they walked on tile or hardwood floors,. Also, you're talking about a warm -weathered and often hot climate in Istanbul and many other areas where Islam seems to thrive. So, yea, I could see how hundreds of sweaty, stinky feet on a carpet in a house of worship could create and atmosphere of funk-smelling.

And to me, church floors, espeically Catholic churches, as opposed to mosques or even many protestant "churches" being cleaner are a no brainer. I haven't been in any temples of mosques (for good reason) and have no plan to in the future. But I can almost guarntee you our floors are spotless and smell free, most Catholic churches I've ever been in or attended Mass were meticulous.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 06:05:45 AM by Charles Martel »
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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #66 on: July 07, 2017, 06:28:54 AM »
If your freshly washed feet are sweaty and stinky, you're doing the washing thing wrong. ::)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 06:29:20 AM by Arachne »
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Offline Bruin5

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #67 on: July 07, 2017, 06:45:57 AM »
When I went to the Blue Mosque I didn't smell the stinky feet thing, and this was during the summer. 

I have to say that visiting Hagia Sophia was very impactful to me.  Just an incredible Church and an architectural wonder.  Of course, we spent our time examine the altar to see if we could tell when the Priest entered the wall with the Holy Gifts when the Muslims invaded.

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #68 on: July 07, 2017, 08:29:54 AM »
Quote
  It seems to me, Father, that you made either an errant observation based on limited experience or a bad joke about how the Hagia Sophia would "smell like feet" if it became a mosque because the worshippers there would be removing their shoes.  I understand that this is what people growing up in Western cultures in which closed shoes that promote foot odor might think.  It simply doesn't sync up with my experience though.
I think you're wrong on this AN, what FR. says perfectly makes sense to me. The fact of the matter is, is that most mosques are usually "carpeted" and carpet will absorb the sweat and funk of the bottom of popel's feet much more than if they walked on tile or hardwood floors,. Also, you're talking about a warm -weathered and often hot climate in Istanbul and many other areas where Islam seems to thrive. So, yea, I could see how hundreds of sweaty, stinky feet on a carpet in a house of worship could create and atmosphere of funk-smelling.

Look, I'm just about done with the topic of feet over here, but I think the only reason that Fr. George's assessment makes sense to you is because you come from the same Western, North American, cold weather background.  You're used to people wearing closed shoes and thick socks all day, which cause their feet to sweat, which makes them a breeding ground for bacteria, and thus they smell when they remove them.  This isn't rocket science, but it is science.  Feet don't stink in and of themselves any more than any other body part.  They smell because they've been cooped up in an environment that doesn't allow them to breathe and causes them to sweat all day, just like the rest of your body would if similarly confined.

People's feet don't smell like that in tropical cultures where they walk around barefoot, or in cultures where they were sandals, etc., or when people know they're going to church or masjid or their Hindu temple or whatever and they know they're going to take off their shoes, so they clean themselves before going, and they only have their shoes on for a brief time before they arrive.  Medical science backs me up on this:

http://www.prevention.com/health/why-your-feet-smell

In my church - as in most Oriental Orthodox churches I've attended (excepting the Armenians) - the guys wear closed shoes and socks and the girls wear sandals upon arrival, so once both sets remove their shoes, you see a lot of socks on the men's side and a lot of bare feet on the women's.  Being a North American, you might think under the circumstances that the guy's side at least would stink, but it doesn't, because everyone has basically only had their shoes on for the car ride over.  The only time I ever remember anyone's feet stinking so badly that I noticed it was at an evening service when this one Coptic doctor came directly from a long shift, and he would've been better off leaving his shoes on.  Foul.  But he was the exception that proved the rule.

Which brings me to my next point: feet are feet, so this idea that bare feet in a Christian house of worship shouldn't stink but Muslim feet should because their faith is foul is just asinine, especially when many observant Muslims ritually wash their feet before prayer.

And to me, church floors, espeically Catholic churches, as opposed to mosques or even many protestant "churches" being cleaner are a no brainer. I haven't been in any temples of mosques (for good reason) and have no plan to in the future. But I can almost guarntee you our floors are spotless and smell free, most Catholic churches I've ever been in or attended Mass were meticulous.

Respectfully, you're speaking from ignorance here.  You admit you've never been to a mosque or a (Hindu?  Who else goes barefoot?) temple, but you assume that their floors aren't as clean as Protestant or Catholic floors.  That's bizarre.  I've been to mosques.  Their floors didn't strike me as particularly dirty.  Everyone on these boards knows that I have no great love for Charismatism and in fact think much of it is satanic, but I would never assert something as silly as the notion that because I think their pneumatology is debased, they must live physically foul lives and be dirty people.

If your freshly washed feet are sweaty and stinky, you're doing the washing thing wrong. ::)

+1
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #69 on: July 07, 2017, 11:47:25 AM »
If they turn it into a mosque, then the tourism industry will lose a ton of $$ (since then they won't be able to charge admission) and interest (the whole place will smell like feet again)... all for yet another mosque not filled to capacity in Istanbul / Constantinople.  The only upside for the religious types in Turkey: PR victory.

To the earlier question: The status of Agia Sophia has not affected the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 564 years (since it was taken away).  If it were converted to a mosque the parts that would be truly threatened are the icons, since those would be considered blasphemous for a mosque.

Do mosques have an unpleasant odor as a result of the bare feet thing?   I had always assumed rhey burned oil or incense in them between services to dispell any nasty odors, but if that's not the case, if in fact they stink, my interests in visiting one just took a plunge.

Fun fact: several of the major state-run mosques in Istanbul have identical carpeting (take a look at pictures of their interiors online and you'll notice evidence of matching furniture and other cost-cutting).  This now makes sense if due to reasons of odor they have to change the carpet every few years.

I had thought the whole point of the ablutions was to prevent such odors, but apparently many Muslims skip the required foot-washing.  What had grossed me out more about the prospect of mosque visitarion was nasal and saliva drippage on the carpet.

Constantinople is Hanafi territory, but ISIL, the Saudis and Salafis and orher undesirables tend to be Hanbalis, and Hanbalis do this rather gay foot-interlocking thing during prayer.  A few non-Muslims have successfully impersonated Muslims in order to see Mecca, but my view is the overall praxis of Islam, even superficially during Islamic prayer, is just a bit too gross, especially if as you say, the mosques stink.

It's amazing that Americans wear shoes in their churches and homes, shoes that walk on ground polluted with motor oil, dog feces, spittle, garbage, urine, diseases, and all manner of vile filth, and think their churches and homes are clean, but let them even think of a church or other house of worship where people walk in barefoot and they're paralysed with fear.
This is a good point. In our house, as was in mine were I was raised, we more or less removed our shoes after coming in from outside, especially in the winter or if it was raining. We never liked the idea of any residue from  the outside dirt and pollution coming into the house on the carpets or floors. But, rarely did we go barefoot as that was not allowed for the most part either. Usually we kept indoor slippers or kept our socks on as well, the idea of one's barefeet was not seen sanitary or attractive as either. This was/is personally bothersome for me since I prefer to walk barefoot myself.

Oh Charles, with this post you have endeared yourself to me.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #70 on: July 07, 2017, 08:33:43 PM »
Quote
Look, I'm just about done with the topic of feet over here
You mean muslim stinky feet. ;)

Quote
because you come from the same Western, North American, cold weather background.  You're used to people wearing closed shoes and thick socks all day,
Well, we're certainly not walking around here in snow and sub-zero temps in our "Jesus slippers" now are we?

Quote
This isn't rocket science, but it is science.  Feet don't stink in and of themselves any more than any other body part.  They smell because they've been cooped up in an environment that doesn't allow them to breathe and causes them to sweat all day, just like the rest of your body would if similarly confined.
I can agree with that. But our feet do have sweat glands and they will sweat even after being washed in certain conditions, like the heat and humidity, and all those sweaty feet walking around on the same carpet which will absorb it, will cause an odor. you're basically better off walking around on carpet in socks or even clean rubber-soled shoes. It's not rocket science buddy, it's just good ol  plain  hygiene and practicality. Just ask the carpet pros; ;)

http://carterscarpet.com/better-wear-shoes-go-barefoot-carpet/

Quote
In my church - as in most Oriental Orthodox churches I've attended (excepting the Armenians) - the guys wear closed shoes and socks and the girls wear sandals upon arrival, so once both sets remove their shoes, you see a lot of socks on the men's side and a lot of bare feet on the women's.  Being a North American, you might think under the circumstances that the guy's side at least would stink, but it doesn't, because everyone has basically only had their shoes on for the car ride over.
Aha..key point. the men had their socks on. Check out my link above. (Well, if you have carpet).

And we all know, wymins feet don't stink. ;D

Quote
Which brings me to my next point: feet are feet, so this idea that bare feet in a Christian house of worship shouldn't stink but Muslim feet should because their faith is foul is just asinine, especially when many observant Muslims ritually wash their feet before prayer.
I never said any of that. Of course it's a ridiculous statement. But, from my own personal experience and observation. Muslims seem to be a dirtier people in general. I've been around a few and in their neighborhoods in my lifetime to know the deal. Like I said, go check out just about every Catholic (And Orthodox for that matter) Church inside and out, they're pretty much spotless. We have a lot of old Catholic Churches in some pretty rough urban neighborhoods around here that have gone to crap, pretty much in shambles, but you go by the front of the Church and it's usually very clean and maintained in perfect order, same goes for the inside. Oh yea and it doesn't smell like foot odor. Can't say the same for the local mosque/masjid.

Quote
Respectfully, you're speaking from ignorance here.  You admit you've never been to a mosque or a (Hindu?  Who else goes barefoot?) temple, but you assume that their floors aren't as clean as Protestant or Catholic floors.  That's bizarre.
Like I said, I can only make the assumption from my own expierence with the people or the cultures they come from. I'm not impressed. and before you go on a tangent about dirty Westerners and their "churches" don't bother, i know we have more than our share as well. I just believe they are in the minority. And again, I have no reason or desire to go into these other pagan "houses of worship". So, yea, maybe I am ignorant about the heavenly sights and smells from my local mosques and hindu temples, i'll just have to go through life without that wonderful experience. But in this case, i'll take my ignorance as bliss.

Quote
I've been to mosques.  Their floors didn't strike me as particularly dirty
Good for you i guess. At any rate, why, pray tell, would you want to? Just curious.

Quote
Everyone on these boards knows that I have no great love for Charismatism and in fact think much of it is satanic, but I would never assert something as silly as the notion that because I think their pneumatology is debased, they must live physically foul lives and be dirty people.
Obviously you haven't been around enough of these people. lol! ;D

« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 08:35:47 PM by Charles Martel »
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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #71 on: July 07, 2017, 08:36:56 PM »
If they turn it into a mosque, then the tourism industry will lose a ton of $$ (since then they won't be able to charge admission) and interest (the whole place will smell like feet again)... all for yet another mosque not filled to capacity in Istanbul / Constantinople.  The only upside for the religious types in Turkey: PR victory.

To the earlier question: The status of Agia Sophia has not affected the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 564 years (since it was taken away).  If it were converted to a mosque the parts that would be truly threatened are the icons, since those would be considered blasphemous for a mosque.

Do mosques have an unpleasant odor as a result of the bare feet thing?   I had always assumed rhey burned oil or incense in them between services to dispell any nasty odors, but if that's not the case, if in fact they stink, my interests in visiting one just took a plunge.

Fun fact: several of the major state-run mosques in Istanbul have identical carpeting (take a look at pictures of their interiors online and you'll notice evidence of matching furniture and other cost-cutting).  This now makes sense if due to reasons of odor they have to change the carpet every few years.

I had thought the whole point of the ablutions was to prevent such odors, but apparently many Muslims skip the required foot-washing.  What had grossed me out more about the prospect of mosque visitarion was nasal and saliva drippage on the carpet.

Constantinople is Hanafi territory, but ISIL, the Saudis and Salafis and orher undesirables tend to be Hanbalis, and Hanbalis do this rather gay foot-interlocking thing during prayer.  A few non-Muslims have successfully impersonated Muslims in order to see Mecca, but my view is the overall praxis of Islam, even superficially during Islamic prayer, is just a bit too gross, especially if as you say, the mosques stink.

It's amazing that Americans wear shoes in their churches and homes, shoes that walk on ground polluted with motor oil, dog feces, spittle, garbage, urine, diseases, and all manner of vile filth, and think their churches and homes are clean, but let them even think of a church or other house of worship where people walk in barefoot and they're paralysed with fear.
This is a good point. In our house, as was in mine were I was raised, we more or less removed our shoes after coming in from outside, especially in the winter or if it was raining. We never liked the idea of any residue from  the outside dirt and pollution coming into the house on the carpets or floors. But, rarely did we go barefoot as that was not allowed for the most part either. Usually we kept indoor slippers or kept our socks on as well, the idea of one's barefeet was not seen sanitary or attractive as either. This was/is personally bothersome for me since I prefer to walk barefoot myself.

Oh Charles, with this post you have endeared yourself to me.
It's what I live for Mor. ;)
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #72 on: July 07, 2017, 09:55:35 PM »
I can't believe I'm being forced to have this ridiculous conversation all because of one poster's inane remark and another's even more ridiculous follow-up bloviation.

You mean muslim stinky feet. ;)

Yeah, that's the stupid implication some in this thread have been making.  ::)

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because you come from the same Western, North American, cold weather background.  You're used to people wearing closed shoes and thick socks all day,
Well, we're certainly not walking around here in snow and sub-zero temps in our "Jesus slippers" now are we?

I'm not criticizing the idea of wearing closed shoes in cold weather.  I'm just remarking on the impact the practice has on foot odor.

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This isn't rocket science, but it is science.  Feet don't stink in and of themselves any more than any other body part.  They smell because they've been cooped up in an environment that doesn't allow them to breathe and causes them to sweat all day, just like the rest of your body would if similarly confined.
I can agree with that. But our feet do have sweat glands and they will sweat even after being washed in certain conditions, like the heat and humidity, and all those sweaty feet walking around on the same carpet which will absorb it, will cause an odor. you're basically better off walking around on carpet in socks or even clean rubber-soled shoes. It's not rocket science buddy, it's just good ol  plain  hygiene and practicality. Just ask the carpet pros; ;)

http://carterscarpet.com/better-wear-shoes-go-barefoot-carpet/

None of this impacts upon my point.  If the building is hot enough that people's bare feet are sweating, the rest of them is sweating as well, and feet aren't all you'll be smelling.

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In my church - as in most Oriental Orthodox churches I've attended (excepting the Armenians) - the guys wear closed shoes and socks and the girls wear sandals upon arrival, so once both sets remove their shoes, you see a lot of socks on the men's side and a lot of bare feet on the women's.  Being a North American, you might think under the circumstances that the guy's side at least would stink, but it doesn't, because everyone has basically only had their shoes on for the car ride over.
Aha..key point. the men had their socks on. Check out my link above. (Well, if you have carpet).

And we all know, wymins feet don't stink. ;D

Yeah, I know you're part way kidding, but this doesn't make sense.  If more than half the church - because there are usually more women in church than men - is straight up barefoot, and being barefoot in any way contributed to odor in the church, then our churches should still stink.  They don't.

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Which brings me to my next point: feet are feet, so this idea that bare feet in a Christian house of worship shouldn't stink but Muslim feet should because their faith is foul is just asinine, especially when many observant Muslims ritually wash their feet before prayer.
I never said any of that. Of course it's a ridiculous statement. But, from my own personal experience and observation. Muslims seem to be a dirtier people in general. I've been around a few and in their neighborhoods in my lifetime to know the deal. Like I said, go check out just about every Catholic (And Orthodox for that matter) Church inside and out, they're pretty much spotless. We have a lot of old Catholic Churches in some pretty rough urban neighborhoods around here that have gone to crap, pretty much in shambles, but you go by the front of the Church and it's usually very clean and maintained in perfect order, same goes for the inside. Oh yea and it doesn't smell like foot odor. Can't say the same for the local mosque/masjid.

Since - as you say - you've never been in a mosque, you wouldn't know.  You're just speculating based on your limited personal experience and preconceptions.

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Respectfully, you're speaking from ignorance here.  You admit you've never been to a mosque or a (Hindu?  Who else goes barefoot?) temple, but you assume that their floors aren't as clean as Protestant or Catholic floors.  That's bizarre.
Like I said, I can only make the assumption from my own expierence with the people or the cultures they come from. I'm not impressed. and before you go on a tangent about dirty Westerners and their "churches" don't bother, i know we have more than our share as well. I just believe they are in the minority. And again, I have no reason or desire to go into these other pagan "houses of worship". So, yea, maybe I am ignorant about the heavenly sights and smells from my local mosques and hindu temples, i'll just have to go through life without that wonderful experience. But in this case, i'll take my ignorance as bliss.

By all means.  But by virtue of admitting that you've never been in a mosque or temple, you can't speak intelligently to whether or not they stink, especially when arguing with someone who has visited them.

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I've been to mosques.  Their floors didn't strike me as particularly dirty
Good for you i guess. At any rate, why, pray tell, would you want to? Just curious.

I have Muslim friends and relatives.  Shocking, right?

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Everyone on these boards knows that I have no great love for Charismatism and in fact think much of it is satanic, but I would never assert something as silly as the notion that because I think their pneumatology is debased, they must live physically foul lives and be dirty people.
Obviously you haven't been around enough of these people. lol! ;D


[/quote]

Now that was funny.  ;D

Let me bottom line this for you: the idea that the Hagia Sophia would necessarily "smell like feet" if it became a mosque is a dumb one.  I know this because I regularly worship in churches where people pray barefoot and I have been in other houses of worship where people do the same.  To try to clean such a stupid remark up to make it inoffensive to Oriental Orthodox Christians by saying, "But you guys feet don't stink though!  Just those dirty Muslims!" moves things beyond the realm of the stupid into the realm of the ludicrous, and all based on off-base Western misconceptions.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #73 on: July 07, 2017, 10:09:46 PM »
Brown people have smelly feet. White people's feet give off the scent of holiness.

/thread
God bless!

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #74 on: July 07, 2017, 10:15:25 PM »
Brown people have smelly feet. White people's feet give off the scent of holiness.

/thread

Unless the brown people are Christian.  Then they get an honorary white man pass in terms of foot odor.  Now...

/thread
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #75 on: July 07, 2017, 10:52:24 PM »
Brown people aren't Christians. They are all dirty Muslims. Fox News told me that.

/thread
God bless!

Offline Luke

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #76 on: July 07, 2017, 11:18:48 PM »
^So I am O.K. autumn, winter, and spring but am in deep trouble if I get a tan in summer?

Offline Saxon

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #77 on: July 08, 2017, 12:15:04 AM »
From personal encounters, I have serious reservations about the hygiene of Muslims (ironic for a religion obsessed with cleansing rituals). I knew a Saudi who described performing wudu with his hand after defecation.

As for the Hagia Sophia, it is a sad state of affairs, but whether or not the building is a mosque or museum is trivial in the context of Constantinople remaining under Islamic Turkish occupation. My thoughts and prayers go out to the handful of Greek and other non-Turkish Christians, as well as the remnant Assyrians scattered across the country, as the twilight of their lives dawns under the creeping Islamism of Erdogan.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #78 on: July 08, 2017, 12:18:45 AM »
Hopefully the racist exhibitionism will soon exhaust itself in the thread.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #79 on: July 08, 2017, 06:05:05 AM »
AN, I don't really want to delve anymore into a really silly subject and deviate from the OP.

However, I will just focus on just a few pertinent points in your rebuttals concerning this subject. Because if HS does revert into a mosque again, the whole place will be carpeted  and unsanitary. And carpet in and of itself being laid about is one of the most, if not THE most greatest and historic cathederals in Christendom is as offensive as it gets. Not too mention the implications of everyone running around barefoot in the place and I don't mean to insult any eastern cultural/religious practices, although, some have no problem offending the sensibilities of the Western mindset as well. I would hope this could be overcome through Christian charity and mutual respect in our Lord Jesus Christ who is supposed to bring all men together, not divide us over silly notions and issues. However;

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If the building is hot enough that people's bare feet are sweating, the rest of them is sweating as well, and feet aren't all you'll be smelling.
But the rest of you isn't rolling around on the floor or making contact with the carpet. Unless, you're having some kind of Pentacostal-like  spastic response  to being "slain in the spirit"; ;D

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Yeah, I know you're part way kidding, but this doesn't make sense.  If more than half the church - because there are usually more women in church than men - is straight up barefoot, and being barefoot in any way contributed to odor in the church, then our churches should still stink.  They don't.
Ok, I believe you. however, I still behind by my comment concerning women. Men generally smell worse than women, a lot of factors at play here which we don't need to get into right now. Having said this, you stiill haven't qualified in your statements abiut whether or not your church floors are carpeted or not. I just can't see the whole place being wall-to-wall carpet and everyone walking barefoot and the place smelling like roses.Not saying it's no possible, i'm just having a hard time concieving it, especially from a RC perspective.

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Since - as you say - you've never been in a mosque, you wouldn't know.  You're just speculating based on your limited personal experience and preconceptions.
Yes, you're right. But I have my certainty, which is enough in some cases. And it's not even so much that i'm anti-muslim/eastern Christian  as much as I'm anti-carpet. ;)

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But by virtue of admitting that you've never been in a mosque or temple, you can't speak intelligently to whether or not they stink, especially when arguing with someone who has visited them.
Well, to some extent this is true. But I can speculate based on many other factors.. I haven't been to a lot of places, does this mean I can't comment or speak intelligently on some basic, fundamental issues like smells or odors in carpets? Actually, I have been in a Buddhist temple many years ago when I studied some Zen as part of my martial arts training. plenty of barefoot people there, no rugs or carpets, no odor. and no one was ceremonially washing their feet before they entered either. Just an observation.

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I have Muslim friends and relatives.  Shocking, right?
No, not really. But I have some Jewish ones.

How bout that. ;)

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.  To try to clean such a stupid remark up to make it inoffensive to Oriental Orthodox Christians by saying, "But you guys feet don't stink though!  Just those dirty Muslims!" moves things beyond the realm of the stupid into the realm of the ludicrous, and all based on off-base Western misconceptions.
If you read through my posts, I haven't done that.

If anything, I've talked up OOC and downmouthed dirty Islamists hygenic practices or neighborhoods.

Again, it's all about the carpet to me  buddy. 8)




Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #80 on: July 08, 2017, 06:06:43 AM »
Brown people have smelly feet. White people's feet give off the scent of holiness.

/thread
I see you brought race into the conversation.

It's all about color to you now isn't it.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #81 on: July 08, 2017, 06:07:33 AM »
Hopefully the racist exhibitionism will soon exhaust itself in the thread.
It will, as soon as you beat it.

Go blow your hot air somewhere else.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #82 on: July 08, 2017, 11:22:22 AM »
From personal encounters, I have serious reservations about the hygiene of Muslims (ironic for a religion obsessed with cleansing rituals). I knew a Saudi who described performing wudu with his hand after defecation.

From personal encounters, I have serious reservations about both the diminished mental capacity and hygiene of white nationalists.  One of them told me they don't believe in using washcloths.

AN, I don't really want to delve anymore into a really silly subject and deviate from the OP.

Me neither.  And yet...

However, I will just focus on just a few pertinent points in your rebuttals concerning this subject. Because if HS does revert into a mosque again, the whole place will be carpeted  and unsanitary. And carpet in and of itself being laid about is one of the most, if not THE most greatest and historic cathederals in Christendom is as offensive as it gets.

Why?  I've prayed in many carpeted churches, EO and OO.  In fact, because OO Christians usually worship barefoot, almost all of the OO churches I've ever prayed in have been carpeted.

Not too mention the implications of everyone running around barefoot in the place and I don't mean to insult any eastern cultural/religious practices, although, some have no problem offending the sensibilities of the Western mindset as well.

Why would everyone "running around barefoot in the place" be offensive when God ordained barefoot worship in the first place?  Remember, Christianity didn't originate in Europe, and the original Christians - Middle Easterners - were worshipping barefoot.

I would hope this could be overcome through Christian charity and mutual respect in our Lord Jesus Christ who is supposed to bring all men together, not divide us over silly notions and issues. However;

Like I said, the Armenians - who are part of our communion - wear their shoes in church (although not in the altar) and we all pray together.  To me, whether a particular jurisdiction mandates barefoot worship or not is no big deal to me.  I'm cool either way.  I'm just not going to sit here and have Westerners make cracks about the practice like their way is normal and ours is the aberration.  If anything, it's the reverse.

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If the building is hot enough that people's bare feet are sweating, the rest of them is sweating as well, and feet aren't all you'll be smelling.
But the rest of you isn't rolling around on the floor or making contact with the carpet.

But you're still gonna be funky.  If the whole place is hot enough that everyone is sweating profusely, the place is gonna smell like a gym regardless.  And there is such a thing as cleaning carpets.

Unless, you're having some kind of Pentacostal-like  spastic response  to being "slain in the spirit"; ;D

Now you're just trying to get on my good side!  ;D

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Yeah, I know you're part way kidding, but this doesn't make sense.  If more than half the church - because there are usually more women in church than men - is straight up barefoot, and being barefoot in any way contributed to odor in the church, then our churches should still stink.  They don't.
Ok, I believe you. however, I still behind by my comment concerning women. Men generally smell worse than women, a lot of factors at play here which we don't need to get into right now.

So you were serious about women's feet never stinking?  Is that like the pretty girls never fart thing?

Man, I hate it that we're actually having this conversation, and all as a result of one lame joke that unintentionally slighted Oriental Orthodox practice and the resulting lame attempts at cleaning it up while still insulting Islam.  ::)

Having said this, you stiill haven't qualified in your statements abiut whether or not your church floors are carpeted or not.

They're usually carpeted.  No one wants to walk stand barefoot on hard marble or wood floors for a three hour plus stretch if they can help it.

I just can't see the whole place being wall-to-wall carpet and everyone walking barefoot and the place smelling like roses.Not saying it's no possible, i'm just having a hard time concieving it, especially from a RC perspective.

I don't know what to tell you other than that my church doesn't stink, and neither does any other OO church I have visited.  Why am I having to defend this?

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Since - as you say - you've never been in a mosque, you wouldn't know.  You're just speculating based on your limited personal experience and preconceptions.
Yes, you're right. But I have my certainty, which is enough in some cases.

But it's really not.  Visit a Coptic church.  See if it stinks.  Even Fr. George said the Coptic church he visited didn't stink, and more than one poster here has said that they've visited mosques that don't stink.  I really don't want to pursue this stupid conversation further, but I absolutely refuse to let the stupid assertions made in this thread concerning barefoot worship stand because of some moronic Western misconceptions.

And it's not even so much that i'm anti-muslim/eastern Christian  as much as I'm anti-carpet. ;)

Okay.  But I am telling you our churches don't stink, and inviting you to visit.  Wear your good socks!  ;)

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But by virtue of admitting that you've never been in a mosque or temple, you can't speak intelligently to whether or not they stink, especially when arguing with someone who has visited them.
Well, to some extent this is true. But I can speculate based on many other factors.. I haven't been to a lot of places, does this mean I can't comment or speak intelligently on some basic, fundamental issues like smells or odors in carpets? Actually, I have been in a Buddhist temple many years ago when I studied some Zen as part of my martial arts training. plenty of barefoot people there, no rugs or carpets, no odor. and no one was ceremonially washing their feet before they entered either. Just an observation.

But your speculation doesn't bear up in the face of my actual experience.  Again, all I can say is please visit.  Really.

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I have Muslim friends and relatives.  Shocking, right?
No, not really. But I have some Jewish ones.

How bout that. ;)

How much do they admit to you about the global conspiracy they're engineering?  ;)

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.  To try to clean such a stupid remark up to make it inoffensive to Oriental Orthodox Christians by saying, "But you guys feet don't stink though!  Just those dirty Muslims!" moves things beyond the realm of the stupid into the realm of the ludicrous, and all based on off-base Western misconceptions.
If you read through my posts, I haven't done that.

I wasn't referring exclusively to you here, but rather to the

barefoot worship + Oriental Orthodox = no stink
barefoot worship + Muslims = stink

stupidity bandied about by various posters.

If anything, I've talked up OOC and downmouthed dirty Islamists hygenic practices or neighborhoods.

That's pretty much the same thing.

Again, it's all about the carpet to me  buddy. 8)

So please come and visit one of our carpeted churches.  You can leave a gas mask in your trunk, just in case you need to run out for a quick stink break.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Is Haggia Sophia "museum" turning back to a mosque?
« Reply #83 on: May 25, 2018, 11:36:23 AM »
If they turn it into a mosque, then the tourism industry will lose a ton of $$ (since then they won't be able to charge admission) and interest (the whole place will smell like feet again)... all for yet another mosque not filled to capacity in Istanbul / Constantinople.  The only upside for the religious types in Turkey: PR victory.

To the earlier question: The status of Agia Sophia has not affected the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 564 years (since it was taken away).  If it were converted to a mosque the parts that would be truly threatened are the icons, since those would be considered blasphemous for a mosque.

Do mosques have an unpleasant odor as a result of the bare feet thing?   I had always assumed rhey burned oil or incense in them between services to dispell any nasty odors, but if that's not the case, if in fact they stink, my interests in visiting one just took a plunge.

Fun fact: several of the major state-run mosques in Istanbul have identical carpeting (take a look at pictures of their interiors online and you'll notice evidence of matching furniture and other cost-cutting).  This now makes sense if due to reasons of odor they have to change the carpet every few years.

I had thought the whole point of the ablutions was to prevent such odors, but apparently many Muslims skip the required foot-washing.  What had grossed me out more about the prospect of mosque visitarion was nasal and saliva drippage on the carpet.

Constantinople is Hanafi territory, but ISIL, the Saudis and Salafis and orher undesirables tend to be Hanbalis, and Hanbalis do this rather gay foot-interlocking thing during prayer.  A few non-Muslims have successfully impersonated Muslims in order to see Mecca, but my view is the overall praxis of Islam, even superficially during Islamic prayer, is just a bit too gross, especially if as you say, the mosques stink.

It's amazing that Americans wear shoes in their churches and homes, shoes that walk on ground polluted with motor oil, dog feces, spittle, garbage, urine, diseases, and all manner of vile filth, and think their churches and homes are clean, but let them even think of a church or other house of worship where people walk in barefoot and they're paralysed with fear.

It's actually common custom here in Alaska not to wear shoes inside the house for reasons like that (and snow, of course).
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