Author Topic: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?  (Read 2257 times)

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Offline minasoliman

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #90 on: July 03, 2017, 12:06:57 PM »
I want you to be conscious of something in yourself. It seems when I tell you to not obsess over an anti-Orthodox Calvinist preacher, you directed your frustration towards the New Testament writers themselves!  Consider how you are displacing your anger.  That's an immature defense mechanism.  Rather, learn to do charitable work to vent your frustrations.
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Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #91 on: July 03, 2017, 12:16:21 PM »
It is a state of His eternity.  He foreknows, just as He is extra-powerful.  In other words, His knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend or describe, just as His power is likewise.  In short, His being is just being described.  But we don't presume to know what He knows because we can't.  For that we have another term: providence.  We trust His Providence, and we trust His love towards us.  That's it.

What happens in the end where someone goes or how someone judges, we don't know, and we don't presume to know God's foreknowledge of these events.  We don't even know what "foreknowledge" really is.  But we honor Him for that.

So: don't presume you think you know what He knows.  Just do your part in your own salvation and those around you. That's the whole idea behind "foreknowledge".  For you to obsess to try to understand what that means makes you want to be equal to God, which is impossible and will drive you insane.

If you try to twist your own logic into "Calvinism" vs "semi-Calvinism", you're doing yourself a disfavor.  Many of us have learned to shut up before the glory of Christ.  You can do the same.
Okay. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it. I will shut up from now and stop talking about things I don't know. One last question though; it sort of makes me confused what you are saying in a way, even if I like your expression of things. Because, how can we then "know" there is even going to be a judgement? I mean, did the apostle Paul understand what he was talking about when he spoke about predestination etc. or was he just speculating or interpreting things from his own limited understanding?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 12:16:41 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #92 on: July 03, 2017, 12:17:33 PM »
I want you to be conscious of something in yourself. It seems when I tell you to not obsess over an anti-Orthodox Calvinist preacher, you directed your frustration towards the New Testament writers themselves!  Consider how you are displacing your anger.  That's an immature defense mechanism.  Rather, learn to do charitable work to vent your frustrations.
Thanks. I apologize. And I confess. I am exceptionally angry at all those people that I would call "religious oppressors". I don't count the apostles there. I guess I try to find the reason for all this hatred and bigotry and oppression that can be found among so many who call themselves christians. And I look at the new testament and have had a tendency to find the answers there sort of. What the new testament often teaches if one reads the actual letter, have seemed to me to be what calvinists like MacArthur teaches. And it makes me angry, yes.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 12:23:22 PM by beebert »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #93 on: July 03, 2017, 12:34:35 PM »
It is a state of His eternity.  He foreknows, just as He is extra-powerful.  In other words, His knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend or describe, just as His power is likewise.  In short, His being is just being described.  But we don't presume to know what He knows because we can't.  For that we have another term: providence.  We trust His Providence, and we trust His love towards us.  That's it.

What happens in the end where someone goes or how someone judges, we don't know, and we don't presume to know God's foreknowledge of these events.  We don't even know what "foreknowledge" really is.  But we honor Him for that.

So: don't presume you think you know what He knows.  Just do your part in your own salvation and those around you. That's the whole idea behind "foreknowledge".  For you to obsess to try to understand what that means makes you want to be equal to God, which is impossible and will drive you insane.

If you try to twist your own logic into "Calvinism" vs "semi-Calvinism", you're doing yourself a disfavor.  Many of us have learned to shut up before the glory of Christ.  You can do the same.
Okay. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it. I will shut up from now and stop talking about things I don't know. One last question though; it sort of makes me confused what you are saying in a way, even if I like your expression of things. Because, how can we then "know" there is even going to be a judgement? I mean, did the apostle Paul understand what he was talking about when he spoke about predestination etc. or was he just speculating or interpreting things from his own limited understanding?

We believe the words of St. Paul regarding resurrection, Judgment, the relationship of man and God, and so forth, to be divinely inspired. This means that the Holy Spirit, and not the mortal man himself, conveyed to us these important teachings. Where would humankind be if we were left to our "own limited understanding"? The things of God are inexplicable, but it pleases him to give his children what knowledge we can use. But with that I mis-phrase, as it is not so much a matter of knowledge as of bearings for our soul. The things we hear read in the Church and the things we do and see in her divine worship all serve to give our souls direction; some of this is conscious knowledge and much is unconscious understanding.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 12:35:56 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #94 on: July 03, 2017, 12:38:58 PM »
Okay okay I will shut up. But please tell me one last thing; what is meant with foreknowledge, predestination and election? If you combine that with an omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent God I unfortunately find it IMPOSSIBLE to understand that it can mean anything else than that God knows my destiny but decides to for some reason create me anyway. ...

His intentions in creating you were to save you and adopt you, nothing else. And that you would then become his companion in good work (beautiful work, as St. Paul sometimes puts it) and ultimately in eternal bliss.

It's curious to me that the same Beebert that becomes so (in your words) angry that God would create someone who might doom himself also becomes so vocal about "freedom" in threads in these forums and how free will is among the highest goods of man.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 12:43:49 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline WPM

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #95 on: July 03, 2017, 12:39:54 PM »
You can be those wonderful things but then it might be hypocritical.
Learn meditation.

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #96 on: July 03, 2017, 12:44:04 PM »
It is a state of His eternity.  He foreknows, just as He is extra-powerful.  In other words, His knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend or describe, just as His power is likewise.  In short, His being is just being described.  But we don't presume to know what He knows because we can't.  For that we have another term: providence.  We trust His Providence, and we trust His love towards us.  That's it.

What happens in the end where someone goes or how someone judges, we don't know, and we don't presume to know God's foreknowledge of these events.  We don't even know what "foreknowledge" really is.  But we honor Him for that.

So: don't presume you think you know what He knows.  Just do your part in your own salvation and those around you. That's the whole idea behind "foreknowledge".  For you to obsess to try to understand what that means makes you want to be equal to God, which is impossible and will drive you insane.

If you try to twist your own logic into "Calvinism" vs "semi-Calvinism", you're doing yourself a disfavor.  Many of us have learned to shut up before the glory of Christ.  You can do the same.
Okay. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it. I will shut up from now and stop talking about things I don't know. One last question though; it sort of makes me confused what you are saying in a way, even if I like your expression of things. Because, how can we then "know" there is even going to be a judgement? I mean, did the apostle Paul understand what he was talking about when he spoke about predestination etc. or was he just speculating or interpreting things from his own limited understanding?

We believe the words of St. Paul regarding resurrection, Judgment, the relationship of man and God, and so forth, to be divinely inspired. This means that the Holy Spirit, and not the mortal man himself, conveyed to us these important teachings. Where would humankind be if we were left to our "own limited understanding"? The things of God are inexplicable, but it pleases him to give his children what knowledge we can use. But with that I mis-phrase, as it is not so much a matter of knowledge as of bearings for our soul. The things we hear read in the Church and the things we do and see in her divine worship all serve to give our souls direction; some of this is conscious knowledge and much is unconscious understanding.
I understand. I accept that view I guess. But, did Paul get everything right? Is the bible infallible? I mean, cultures changes... He still used a language that stood in relation to the understandings of his cultures. He might have expressed a truth through the means he could, but is it the best way to express it today, if you understand what I mean?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline minasoliman

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #97 on: July 03, 2017, 12:45:53 PM »
It is a state of His eternity.  He foreknows, just as He is extra-powerful.  In other words, His knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend or describe, just as His power is likewise.  In short, His being is just being described.  But we don't presume to know what He knows because we can't.  For that we have another term: providence.  We trust His Providence, and we trust His love towards us.  That's it.

What happens in the end where someone goes or how someone judges, we don't know, and we don't presume to know God's foreknowledge of these events.  We don't even know what "foreknowledge" really is.  But we honor Him for that.

So: don't presume you think you know what He knows.  Just do your part in your own salvation and those around you. That's the whole idea behind "foreknowledge".  For you to obsess to try to understand what that means makes you want to be equal to God, which is impossible and will drive you insane.

If you try to twist your own logic into "Calvinism" vs "semi-Calvinism", you're doing yourself a disfavor.  Many of us have learned to shut up before the glory of Christ.  You can do the same.
Okay. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it. I will shut up from now and stop talking about things I don't know. One last question though; it sort of makes me confused what you are saying in a way, even if I like your expression of things. Because, how can we then "know" there is even going to be a judgement? I mean, did the apostle Paul understand what he was talking about when he spoke about predestination etc. or was he just speculating or interpreting things from his own limited understanding?

Christ told us there will be a judgment.  But that doesn't mean Christ told us there will be those He chose to condemn or to save.  He never said that and neither did St. Paul.  Paul pretty much said we are all destined to be saved, justified and glorified.  The destiny was before all time, in eternity: "predestines".  What we choose to do with our "predestiny" therefore is what will judge us.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #98 on: July 03, 2017, 12:46:55 PM »
It is a state of His eternity.  He foreknows, just as He is extra-powerful.  In other words, His knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend or describe, just as His power is likewise.  In short, His being is just being described.  But we don't presume to know what He knows because we can't.  For that we have another term: providence.  We trust His Providence, and we trust His love towards us.  That's it.

What happens in the end where someone goes or how someone judges, we don't know, and we don't presume to know God's foreknowledge of these events.  We don't even know what "foreknowledge" really is.  But we honor Him for that.

So: don't presume you think you know what He knows.  Just do your part in your own salvation and those around you. That's the whole idea behind "foreknowledge".  For you to obsess to try to understand what that means makes you want to be equal to God, which is impossible and will drive you insane.

If you try to twist your own logic into "Calvinism" vs "semi-Calvinism", you're doing yourself a disfavor.  Many of us have learned to shut up before the glory of Christ.  You can do the same.
Okay. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it. I will shut up from now and stop talking about things I don't know. One last question though; it sort of makes me confused what you are saying in a way, even if I like your expression of things. Because, how can we then "know" there is even going to be a judgement? I mean, did the apostle Paul understand what he was talking about when he spoke about predestination etc. or was he just speculating or interpreting things from his own limited understanding?

We believe the words of St. Paul regarding resurrection, Judgment, the relationship of man and God, and so forth, to be divinely inspired. This means that the Holy Spirit, and not the mortal man himself, conveyed to us these important teachings. Where would humankind be if we were left to our "own limited understanding"? The things of God are inexplicable, but it pleases him to give his children what knowledge we can use. But with that I mis-phrase, as it is not so much a matter of knowledge as of bearings for our soul. The things we hear read in the Church and the things we do and see in her divine worship all serve to give our souls direction; some of this is conscious knowledge and much is unconscious understanding.
I understand. I accept that view I guess. But, did Paul get everything right? Is the bible infallible? I mean, cultures changes... He still used a language that stood in relation to the understandings of his cultures. He might have expressed a truth through the means he could, but is it the best way to express it today, if you understand what I mean?

His words do not have to stand alone to bear all that weight you're assigning them, because the Word is a living being and the head of a living Church.

I could comment on how you tend to throw these extreme challenges out that seem largely unrelated to your original thoughts -- "Is the Bible infallible?" &c. -- but perhaps that is just how your mind tends to work. I don't know.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #99 on: July 03, 2017, 12:51:05 PM »
Okay okay I will shut up. But please tell me one last thing; what is meant with foreknowledge, predestination and election? If you combine that with an omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent God I unfortunately find it IMPOSSIBLE to understand that it can mean anything else than that God knows my destiny but decides to for some reason create me anyway. ...

His intentions in creating you were to save you and adopt you, nothing else. And that you would then become his companion in good work (beautiful work, as St. Paul sometimes puts it) and ultimately in eternal bliss.

It's curious to me that the same Beebert that becomes so (in your words) angry that God would create someone who might doom himself also becomes so vocal about "freedom" in threads in these forums and how free will is among the highest goods of man.
But if he foreknew my fate would be something else than salvation and adoption, and he still created me, how does that work together?

Hm... Yes well, it bothers me that he creates people who "doom themselves"(but once again the bible I read says that God dooms them as far as I understand it, but I am probably wrong I guess) because he knew beforehand apparently that they would(or once again, that is what I have understood is not orthodox theology and can be found in Paul's letters). I doubt that one has free will... It depends on what one means by that. It can never be completely free, it is certainly divided. But I do believe that we have the possibility to make choices in the sense that I can choose now to go and take ice cream etc... I could force myself to pray. So I am free to force myself. But perhaps I still don't WANT to pray, so my will is somewhere else. That is what I mean by divided will. It is free in the sense that I can now choose to pray, but it is unfree in the sense that I perhaps don't want to even when I do it. But that is not really freedom. I praise freedom, but that is something else. The closest I have been to experience true freedom is when I create, make and play music etc. I guess that those who feel that Christ have accepted them feel free. But I don't feel accepted. Even less so when reading scripture. And what terrifies me more is that others too are not accepted. I would find it hard even to be accepted and then walk around on earth thinking that the majority are not and are in sincere danger of hell. If one uses logic and reason(which of course are both fallible), then approximately 100 000/day go to hell if you truly believe in hell and that most people go there(wide is the gate etc)... And that drives me insane. Even 1 person a day could drive me insane
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 01:01:39 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #100 on: July 03, 2017, 12:52:50 PM »
It is a state of His eternity.  He foreknows, just as He is extra-powerful.  In other words, His knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend or describe, just as His power is likewise.  In short, His being is just being described.  But we don't presume to know what He knows because we can't.  For that we have another term: providence.  We trust His Providence, and we trust His love towards us.  That's it.

What happens in the end where someone goes or how someone judges, we don't know, and we don't presume to know God's foreknowledge of these events.  We don't even know what "foreknowledge" really is.  But we honor Him for that.

So: don't presume you think you know what He knows.  Just do your part in your own salvation and those around you. That's the whole idea behind "foreknowledge".  For you to obsess to try to understand what that means makes you want to be equal to God, which is impossible and will drive you insane.

If you try to twist your own logic into "Calvinism" vs "semi-Calvinism", you're doing yourself a disfavor.  Many of us have learned to shut up before the glory of Christ.  You can do the same.
Okay. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it. I will shut up from now and stop talking about things I don't know. One last question though; it sort of makes me confused what you are saying in a way, even if I like your expression of things. Because, how can we then "know" there is even going to be a judgement? I mean, did the apostle Paul understand what he was talking about when he spoke about predestination etc. or was he just speculating or interpreting things from his own limited understanding?

Christ told us there will be a judgment.  But that doesn't mean Christ told us there will be those He chose to condemn or to save.  He never said that and neither did St. Paul.  Paul pretty much said we are all destined to be saved, justified and glorified.  The destiny was before all time, in eternity: "predestines".  What we choose to do with our "predestiny" therefore is what will judge us.
Hmm... Is that what Paul said? Could you provide me with references if you want? I would appreciate it, because that view sounds much better.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #101 on: July 03, 2017, 12:58:04 PM »
It is a state of His eternity.  He foreknows, just as He is extra-powerful.  In other words, His knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend or describe, just as His power is likewise.  In short, His being is just being described.  But we don't presume to know what He knows because we can't.  For that we have another term: providence.  We trust His Providence, and we trust His love towards us.  That's it.

What happens in the end where someone goes or how someone judges, we don't know, and we don't presume to know God's foreknowledge of these events.  We don't even know what "foreknowledge" really is.  But we honor Him for that.

So: don't presume you think you know what He knows.  Just do your part in your own salvation and those around you. That's the whole idea behind "foreknowledge".  For you to obsess to try to understand what that means makes you want to be equal to God, which is impossible and will drive you insane.

If you try to twist your own logic into "Calvinism" vs "semi-Calvinism", you're doing yourself a disfavor.  Many of us have learned to shut up before the glory of Christ.  You can do the same.
Okay. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it. I will shut up from now and stop talking about things I don't know. One last question though; it sort of makes me confused what you are saying in a way, even if I like your expression of things. Because, how can we then "know" there is even going to be a judgement? I mean, did the apostle Paul understand what he was talking about when he spoke about predestination etc. or was he just speculating or interpreting things from his own limited understanding?

We believe the words of St. Paul regarding resurrection, Judgment, the relationship of man and God, and so forth, to be divinely inspired. This means that the Holy Spirit, and not the mortal man himself, conveyed to us these important teachings. Where would humankind be if we were left to our "own limited understanding"? The things of God are inexplicable, but it pleases him to give his children what knowledge we can use. But with that I mis-phrase, as it is not so much a matter of knowledge as of bearings for our soul. The things we hear read in the Church and the things we do and see in her divine worship all serve to give our souls direction; some of this is conscious knowledge and much is unconscious understanding.
I understand. I accept that view I guess. But, did Paul get everything right? Is the bible infallible? I mean, cultures changes... He still used a language that stood in relation to the understandings of his cultures. He might have expressed a truth through the means he could, but is it the best way to express it today, if you understand what I mean?

His words do not have to stand alone to bear all that weight you're assigning them, because the Word is a living being and the head of a living Church.

I could comment on how you tend to throw these extreme challenges out that seem largely unrelated to your original thoughts -- "Is the Bible infallible?" &c. -- but perhaps that is just how your mind tends to work. I don't know.
In what sense I mean does the bible speak an eternal truth? When Paul speaks about God's wrath and vengeance, I really do believe that he pictured it as a God who was literally angry and was going to actively punish people. Since then, many orthodox theologians of today have followed Isaac the Syrians thought, who said basically that hell and heaven is the same place, that God pours out his love equally to all but that some will judge themselves and therefore can not stand that presence and it becomes a tormenting experience. That might be true, but I believe it contradicts the bible. So... in what sense is the bible infallible? That is what I meant. Because I believe Paul had a true experience and a true revelation of God that he shared and spread, and the language he used was the language he was capable of using considering the tradition and culture he lived in and was surrounded and effected by. But today, perhaps we have better words to use in order to describe God's mysteries?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 01:02:43 PM by beebert »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #102 on: July 03, 2017, 01:04:13 PM »
It is a state of His eternity.  He foreknows, just as He is extra-powerful.  In other words, His knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend or describe, just as His power is likewise.  In short, His being is just being described.  But we don't presume to know what He knows because we can't.  For that we have another term: providence.  We trust His Providence, and we trust His love towards us.  That's it.

What happens in the end where someone goes or how someone judges, we don't know, and we don't presume to know God's foreknowledge of these events.  We don't even know what "foreknowledge" really is.  But we honor Him for that.

So: don't presume you think you know what He knows.  Just do your part in your own salvation and those around you. That's the whole idea behind "foreknowledge".  For you to obsess to try to understand what that means makes you want to be equal to God, which is impossible and will drive you insane.

If you try to twist your own logic into "Calvinism" vs "semi-Calvinism", you're doing yourself a disfavor.  Many of us have learned to shut up before the glory of Christ.  You can do the same.
Okay. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it. I will shut up from now and stop talking about things I don't know. One last question though; it sort of makes me confused what you are saying in a way, even if I like your expression of things. Because, how can we then "know" there is even going to be a judgement? I mean, did the apostle Paul understand what he was talking about when he spoke about predestination etc. or was he just speculating or interpreting things from his own limited understanding?

Christ told us there will be a judgment.  But that doesn't mean Christ told us there will be those He chose to condemn or to save.  He never said that and neither did St. Paul.  Paul pretty much said we are all destined to be saved, justified and glorified.  The destiny was before all time, in eternity: "predestines".  What we choose to do with our "predestiny" therefore is what will judge us.
Hmm... Is that what Paul said? Could you provide me with references if you want? I would appreciate it, because that view sounds much better.

"Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to ALL men, resulting in justification of life." (Romans 5:18)
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #103 on: July 03, 2017, 01:08:54 PM »
It is a state of His eternity.  He foreknows, just as He is extra-powerful.  In other words, His knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend or describe, just as His power is likewise.  In short, His being is just being described.  But we don't presume to know what He knows because we can't.  For that we have another term: providence.  We trust His Providence, and we trust His love towards us.  That's it.

What happens in the end where someone goes or how someone judges, we don't know, and we don't presume to know God's foreknowledge of these events.  We don't even know what "foreknowledge" really is.  But we honor Him for that.

So: don't presume you think you know what He knows.  Just do your part in your own salvation and those around you. That's the whole idea behind "foreknowledge".  For you to obsess to try to understand what that means makes you want to be equal to God, which is impossible and will drive you insane.

If you try to twist your own logic into "Calvinism" vs "semi-Calvinism", you're doing yourself a disfavor.  Many of us have learned to shut up before the glory of Christ.  You can do the same.
Okay. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it. I will shut up from now and stop talking about things I don't know. One last question though; it sort of makes me confused what you are saying in a way, even if I like your expression of things. Because, how can we then "know" there is even going to be a judgement? I mean, did the apostle Paul understand what he was talking about when he spoke about predestination etc. or was he just speculating or interpreting things from his own limited understanding?

Christ told us there will be a judgment.  But that doesn't mean Christ told us there will be those He chose to condemn or to save.  He never said that and neither did St. Paul.  Paul pretty much said we are all destined to be saved, justified and glorified.  The destiny was before all time, in eternity: "predestines".  What we choose to do with our "predestiny" therefore is what will judge us.
Hmm... Is that what Paul said? Could you provide me with references if you want? I would appreciate it, because that view sounds much better.

"Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to ALL men, resulting in justification of life." (Romans 5:18)
Yes that is true, and I like that passage and have read it before. Thanks. But my mind has always wrapped that passage into the whole picture of God's omnipotence etc. and suddenly what Paul says seems to be "Those who are damned have no excuse". So this free gift from God becomes a great opportunity for God to make a righteous judgement and say "Look, here was the gift. You have no excuse" sort of... I know that sounds insane but you know. I can't get my head around it. I guess I must completely stop thinking about all these things all together. Perhaps even stop reading theology and the letters of Paul all together, as mor ephrem said a long time ago. But it seems dishonest to do that. The letters are there. I want to know what they really mean.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #104 on: July 03, 2017, 01:12:48 PM »
"No excuse" does not mean "no chance" but just the opposite. It means they in fact have every chance.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #105 on: July 03, 2017, 01:15:40 PM »
"No excuse" does not mean "no chance" but just the opposite. It means they in fact have every chance.
But... I know but it seems like he gave them a chance just in order to condemn them. Because if he was before the creation of the world, knew everything that was going to come to pass, created the world ex nihilo in accordance with his own will and then let things unfold just as he foreknew they would, how is that to have a chance?
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #106 on: July 03, 2017, 01:17:53 PM »
It is a state of His eternity.  He foreknows, just as He is extra-powerful.  In other words, His knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend or describe, just as His power is likewise.  In short, His being is just being described.  But we don't presume to know what He knows because we can't.  For that we have another term: providence.  We trust His Providence, and we trust His love towards us.  That's it.

What happens in the end where someone goes or how someone judges, we don't know, and we don't presume to know God's foreknowledge of these events.  We don't even know what "foreknowledge" really is.  But we honor Him for that.

So: don't presume you think you know what He knows.  Just do your part in your own salvation and those around you. That's the whole idea behind "foreknowledge".  For you to obsess to try to understand what that means makes you want to be equal to God, which is impossible and will drive you insane.

If you try to twist your own logic into "Calvinism" vs "semi-Calvinism", you're doing yourself a disfavor.  Many of us have learned to shut up before the glory of Christ.  You can do the same.
Okay. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it. I will shut up from now and stop talking about things I don't know. One last question though; it sort of makes me confused what you are saying in a way, even if I like your expression of things. Because, how can we then "know" there is even going to be a judgement? I mean, did the apostle Paul understand what he was talking about when he spoke about predestination etc. or was he just speculating or interpreting things from his own limited understanding?

Christ told us there will be a judgment.  But that doesn't mean Christ told us there will be those He chose to condemn or to save.  He never said that and neither did St. Paul.  Paul pretty much said we are all destined to be saved, justified and glorified.  The destiny was before all time, in eternity: "predestines".  What we choose to do with our "predestiny" therefore is what will judge us.
Hmm... Is that what Paul said? Could you provide me with references if you want? I would appreciate it, because that view sounds much better.

"Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to ALL men, resulting in justification of life." (Romans 5:18)
Yes that is true, and I like that passage and have read it before. Thanks. But my mind has always wrapped that passage into the whole picture of God's omnipotence etc. and suddenly what Paul says seems to be "Those who are damned have no excuse". So this free gift from God becomes a great opportunity for God to make a righteous judgement and say "Look, here was the gift. You have no excuse" sort of... I know that sounds insane but you know. I can't get my head around it. I guess I must completely stop thinking about all these things all together. Perhaps even stop reading theology and the letters of Paul all together, as mor ephrem said a long time ago. But it seems dishonest to do that. The letters are there. I want to know what they really mean.

I gave you a verse that shows Christ's justification and glorification is offered to ALL men.  So, now that I answered your question, it's your turn to be silent and listen and partake of the glory of Christ.  Learn to accept that you're wrong about Paul.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #107 on: July 03, 2017, 01:21:44 PM »
It is a state of His eternity.  He foreknows, just as He is extra-powerful.  In other words, His knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend or describe, just as His power is likewise.  In short, His being is just being described.  But we don't presume to know what He knows because we can't.  For that we have another term: providence.  We trust His Providence, and we trust His love towards us.  That's it.

What happens in the end where someone goes or how someone judges, we don't know, and we don't presume to know God's foreknowledge of these events.  We don't even know what "foreknowledge" really is.  But we honor Him for that.

So: don't presume you think you know what He knows.  Just do your part in your own salvation and those around you. That's the whole idea behind "foreknowledge".  For you to obsess to try to understand what that means makes you want to be equal to God, which is impossible and will drive you insane.

If you try to twist your own logic into "Calvinism" vs "semi-Calvinism", you're doing yourself a disfavor.  Many of us have learned to shut up before the glory of Christ.  You can do the same.
Okay. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it. I will shut up from now and stop talking about things I don't know. One last question though; it sort of makes me confused what you are saying in a way, even if I like your expression of things. Because, how can we then "know" there is even going to be a judgement? I mean, did the apostle Paul understand what he was talking about when he spoke about predestination etc. or was he just speculating or interpreting things from his own limited understanding?

Christ told us there will be a judgment.  But that doesn't mean Christ told us there will be those He chose to condemn or to save.  He never said that and neither did St. Paul.  Paul pretty much said we are all destined to be saved, justified and glorified.  The destiny was before all time, in eternity: "predestines".  What we choose to do with our "predestiny" therefore is what will judge us.
Hmm... Is that what Paul said? Could you provide me with references if you want? I would appreciate it, because that view sounds much better.

"Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to ALL men, resulting in justification of life." (Romans 5:18)
Yes that is true, and I like that passage and have read it before. Thanks. But my mind has always wrapped that passage into the whole picture of God's omnipotence etc. and suddenly what Paul says seems to be "Those who are damned have no excuse". So this free gift from God becomes a great opportunity for God to make a righteous judgement and say "Look, here was the gift. You have no excuse" sort of... I know that sounds insane but you know. I can't get my head around it. I guess I must completely stop thinking about all these things all together. Perhaps even stop reading theology and the letters of Paul all together, as mor ephrem said a long time ago. But it seems dishonest to do that. The letters are there. I want to know what they really mean.

I gave you a verse that shows Christ's justification and glorification is offered to ALL men.  So, now that I answered your question, it's your turn to be silent and listen and partake of the glory of Christ.  Learn to accept that you're wrong about Paul.
okay
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #108 on: July 03, 2017, 01:21:56 PM »
"No excuse" does not mean "no chance" but just the opposite. It means they in fact have every chance.
But... I know but it seems like he gave them a chance just in order to condemn them. ...

Pardon me, but how would that even work? Either one has a chance (in this case, many, many chances) or one has not. Do you believe God to be a liar or trickster?

Quote
Because if he was before the creation of the world, knew everything that was going to come to pass, created the world ex nihilo in accordance with his own will and then let things unfold just as he foreknew they would, how is that to have a chance?

Again, what is this non sequitur. He created a kosmos in which man "has a chance" and he created man to be his beloved companion. Yet to you this means he gave man no chances?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #109 on: July 03, 2017, 01:24:52 PM »
"No excuse" does not mean "no chance" but just the opposite. It means they in fact have every chance.
But... I know but it seems like he gave them a chance just in order to condemn them. ...

Pardon me, but how would that even work? Either one has a chance (in this case, many, many chances) or one has not. Do you believe God to be a liar or trickster?

Quote
Because if he was before the creation of the world, knew everything that was going to come to pass, created the world ex nihilo in accordance with his own will and then let things unfold just as he foreknew they would, how is that to have a chance?

Again, what is this non sequitur. He created a kosmos in which man "has a chance" and he created man to be his beloved companion. Yet to you this means he gave man no chances?
Perhaps you are right. Well. I must stop thinking about theology and focus on simpler matters
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #110 on: July 03, 2017, 01:31:29 PM »
"No excuse" does not mean "no chance" but just the opposite. It means they in fact have every chance.
But... I know but it seems like he gave them a chance just in order to condemn them. ...

Pardon me, but how would that even work? Either one has a chance (in this case, many, many chances) or one has not. Do you believe God to be a liar or trickster?

Quote
Because if he was before the creation of the world, knew everything that was going to come to pass, created the world ex nihilo in accordance with his own will and then let things unfold just as he foreknew they would, how is that to have a chance?

Again, what is this non sequitur. He created a kosmos in which man "has a chance" and he created man to be his beloved companion. Yet to you this means he gave man no chances?
Does man really have many many chances? I can't experience the existence of God whatsoever to start with. And when I read hebrews 6:4-6, 10:26-29(in fact, the whole hebrews seems to speak about this), the Shepherd of Hermas, etc. it seems like man really has one or two chances. Definitely not more than two. How am I now supposed to take a step where I can trust him? It seems like trusting empty air to me. Or forcing myself to trust a book. I mean. I could shout "I TRUST YOU I TRUST YOU! I BELIEVE YOU CHRIST!" all day long and it still doesn't lead me anywhere. Deep down in my heart, there is still no faith.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 01:33:08 PM by beebert »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #111 on: July 03, 2017, 01:32:23 PM »
"No excuse" does not mean "no chance" but just the opposite. It means they in fact have every chance.
But... I know but it seems like he gave them a chance just in order to condemn them. ...

Pardon me, but how would that even work? Either one has a chance (in this case, many, many chances) or one has not. Do you believe God to be a liar or trickster?

Quote
Because if he was before the creation of the world, knew everything that was going to come to pass, created the world ex nihilo in accordance with his own will and then let things unfold just as he foreknew they would, how is that to have a chance?

Again, what is this non sequitur. He created a kosmos in which man "has a chance" and he created man to be his beloved companion. Yet to you this means he gave man no chances?
Perhaps you are right. Well. I must stop thinking about theology and focus on simpler matters

Theology is the knowledge of the divine, and that is only perceived with the nous. I find that works of love, along with fasting and prayer, do the most to adjust my nous -- and of course the Eucharist nourishes it. This is not what modern folks call "studying theology." :)
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #112 on: July 03, 2017, 01:34:34 PM »
"No excuse" does not mean "no chance" but just the opposite. It means they in fact have every chance.
But... I know but it seems like he gave them a chance just in order to condemn them. ...

Pardon me, but how would that even work? Either one has a chance (in this case, many, many chances) or one has not. Do you believe God to be a liar or trickster?

Quote
Because if he was before the creation of the world, knew everything that was going to come to pass, created the world ex nihilo in accordance with his own will and then let things unfold just as he foreknew they would, how is that to have a chance?

Again, what is this non sequitur. He created a kosmos in which man "has a chance" and he created man to be his beloved companion. Yet to you this means he gave man no chances?
Does man really have many many chances? I can't experience the existence of God whatsoever to start with. And when I read hebrews 6:4-6, 10:26-29(in fact, the whole hebrews seems to speak about this), the Shepherd of Hermas, etc. it seems like man really has one or two chances. Definitely not more than two.

Then I must be over-abundantly blessed, as every hour God gives me chances. Look at me, a wretch arguing on the internet, a hopeless case in many ways. Yet the love of God renews itself toward me perpetually, and I live and breathe and enjoy my children. I know that early on after you joined here I quoted for you a few passages from St. Paul in which he find extraordinary superlatives to try to describe the illimitable generosity of God.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #113 on: July 03, 2017, 01:43:30 PM »
"No excuse" does not mean "no chance" but just the opposite. It means they in fact have every chance.
But... I know but it seems like he gave them a chance just in order to condemn them. ...

Pardon me, but how would that even work? Either one has a chance (in this case, many, many chances) or one has not. Do you believe God to be a liar or trickster?

Quote
Because if he was before the creation of the world, knew everything that was going to come to pass, created the world ex nihilo in accordance with his own will and then let things unfold just as he foreknew they would, how is that to have a chance?

Again, what is this non sequitur. He created a kosmos in which man "has a chance" and he created man to be his beloved companion. Yet to you this means he gave man no chances?
Does man really have many many chances? I can't experience the existence of God whatsoever to start with. And when I read hebrews 6:4-6, 10:26-29(in fact, the whole hebrews seems to speak about this), the Shepherd of Hermas, etc. it seems like man really has one or two chances. Definitely not more than two.

Then I must be over-abundantly blessed, as every hour God gives me chances. Look at me, a wretch arguing on the internet, a hopeless case in many ways. Yet the love of God renews itself toward me perpetually, and I live and breathe and enjoy my children. I know that early on after you joined here I quoted for you a few passages from St. Paul in which he find extraordinary superlatives to try to describe the illimitable generosity of God.
I am happy that you feel that way. Then perhaps the difference between me and you(and Paul) is that you and Paul are loved by God, despite the fact that you might screw up, just like David was loved even though he screwed up, while I am not loved by God in that same sense, but more like an Esau or Saul who is rejected quite immediately?... Look what happened to Solomon after he sinned against God. God turned away from him and he became depressed and wrote the ecclesiastes about how life is all vanity...
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 01:48:33 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #114 on: July 03, 2017, 01:44:20 PM »
"No excuse" does not mean "no chance" but just the opposite. It means they in fact have every chance.
But... I know but it seems like he gave them a chance just in order to condemn them. ...

Pardon me, but how would that even work? Either one has a chance (in this case, many, many chances) or one has not. Do you believe God to be a liar or trickster?

Quote
Because if he was before the creation of the world, knew everything that was going to come to pass, created the world ex nihilo in accordance with his own will and then let things unfold just as he foreknew they would, how is that to have a chance?

Again, what is this non sequitur. He created a kosmos in which man "has a chance" and he created man to be his beloved companion. Yet to you this means he gave man no chances?
Perhaps you are right. Well. I must stop thinking about theology and focus on simpler matters

Theology is the knowledge of the divine, and that is only perceived with the nous. I find that works of love, along with fasting and prayer, do the most to adjust my nous -- and of course the Eucharist nourishes it. This is not what modern folks call "studying theology." :)
That is true
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #115 on: July 03, 2017, 01:45:19 PM »
Thank you, by the way, for using citations!

In both these sobering passages in Hebrews, the writer goes on to encourage those he's writing in glowing words. His words of warning are toward those who have "trodden under foot the Son of God, and ha[ve] counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and ha[ve] done despite unto the Spirit of grace." Yes, it is possible to tread Christ under foot and be judged for it.

But let's look at some of those words of blessing: From chapter 10: "But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions ... and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry." From chapter 6: "Beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: that ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, saying, 'Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.' And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise." (I like also this description earlier: "The earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God.") (All italics I've added.)
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 01:50:34 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #116 on: July 03, 2017, 01:48:36 PM »
I am happy that you feel that way. Then perhaps the difference between me and you(and Paul) is that you and Paul are loved by God, despite the fact that you might screw up, just like David was loved even though he screwed up, while I am not loved by God in that same sense, but more like an Esau or Saul who is rejected quite immediately?... Look what happened to Solomon after he sins against God. God turned away from him and he became depressed and wrote the ecclesiastes about how life is all vanity...

Gosh, Beebert, this again? Esau gave away his birthright, but he was greatly blessed in other ways and praises God for it when he meets Jacob again and they're both the heads of thriving clans. Saul was chosen to be king of all Israel and had many brilliant successes; he was also greatly loved by David who commanded all to forgive his wickedness toward himself up to the very day he died (David, the "man after God's own heart"). Solomon was given supernatural blessings and lived a long life of luxury and admiration. I don't see how you can blame God for any of these men's errors and claim they were never blessed.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #117 on: July 03, 2017, 01:49:50 PM »
Thank you, by the way, for using citations!

In both these sobering passages in Hebrews, the writer goes on to encourage those he's writing in glowing words. His words of warning are toward those who have "trodden under foot the Son of God, and ha[ve] counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and ha[ve] done despite unto the Spirit of grace." Yes, it is possible to tread Christ under foot and be judged for it.

But let's look at some of those words of blessing: From chapter 10: "But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions ... and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry." From chapter 6: "Beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: that ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
saying, 'Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.' And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise." (I like also this description earlier: "The earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God.")
So you don't take those passages as meaning that one is helplessly damned if one "turns away"? Then how do you understand the sentence "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened" in hebrew 6?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #118 on: July 03, 2017, 01:53:46 PM »
I am happy that you feel that way. Then perhaps the difference between me and you(and Paul) is that you and Paul are loved by God, despite the fact that you might screw up, just like David was loved even though he screwed up, while I am not loved by God in that same sense, but more like an Esau or Saul who is rejected quite immediately?... Look what happened to Solomon after he sins against God. God turned away from him and he became depressed and wrote the ecclesiastes about how life is all vanity...

Gosh, Beebert, this again? Esau gave away his birthright, but he was greatly blessed in other ways and praises God for it when he meets Jacob again and they're both the heads of thriving clans. Saul was chosen to be king of all Israel and had many brilliant successes; he was also greatly loved by David who commanded all to forgive his wickedness toward himself up to the very day he died (David, the "man after God's own heart"). Solomon was given supernatural blessings and lived a long life of luxury and admiration. I don't see how you can blame God for any of these men's errors and claim they were never blessed.
I didn't mean they were never blessed. I just meant they were not really forgiven when they made their mistakes. At least that is what I find when reading them... Isn't it strange? I mean if you take hebrew 12:16 and on now, it speaks about Esau and how he was rejected: "See to it that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected. He could find no ground for repentance, though he sought it with tears."
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 01:54:32 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #119 on: July 03, 2017, 02:04:26 PM »
Thank you, by the way, for using citations!

In both these sobering passages in Hebrews, the writer goes on to encourage those he's writing in glowing words. His words of warning are toward those who have "trodden under foot the Son of God, and ha[ve] counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and ha[ve] done despite unto the Spirit of grace." Yes, it is possible to tread Christ under foot and be judged for it.

But let's look at some of those words of blessing: From chapter 10: "But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions ... and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry." From chapter 6: "Beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: that ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
saying, 'Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.' And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise." (I like also this description earlier: "The earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God.")
So you don't take those passages as meaning that one is helplessly damned if one "turns away"? Then how do you understand the sentence "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened" in hebrew 6?

I do believe in condemnation, doom, suffering, smiting, and divine thwarting of evil men. And praise God for it, as it is just and it is merciful to the oppressed.

I've endured his wrath myself and wholly deserved it (that can't be hard for you to believe).

As or this passage, we read also in Hebrews discussions of repentance, forgiveness, mercy, and so on. Further, the writer is continuing a thought (note the "For ..."), in which he urges against doctrines of constant repenting and constant dwelling on the topics of baptism, chrismation, and eschatology and instead urges theosis. The passage in question says nothing about hell or damnation, by the way. And what does it mean to "taste ... the powers of the world to come"? At any rate, the teaching here is that it is impossible for those who meet whatever this description is to be renewed again to repent. Adding "God makes them so" and "then they suffer eternal torment" are embellishments of your own. But I'm forced to leave it to others to say if there is a Church consensus for this passage and what that exposition would be.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #120 on: July 03, 2017, 02:12:02 PM »
Thank you, by the way, for using citations!

In both these sobering passages in Hebrews, the writer goes on to encourage those he's writing in glowing words. His words of warning are toward those who have "trodden under foot the Son of God, and ha[ve] counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and ha[ve] done despite unto the Spirit of grace." Yes, it is possible to tread Christ under foot and be judged for it.

But let's look at some of those words of blessing: From chapter 10: "But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions ... and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry." From chapter 6: "Beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: that ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
saying, 'Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.' And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise." (I like also this description earlier: "The earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God.")
So you don't take those passages as meaning that one is helplessly damned if one "turns away"? Then how do you understand the sentence "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened" in hebrew 6?

I do believe in condemnation, doom, suffering, smiting, and divine thwarting of evil men. And praise God for it, as it is just and it is merciful to the oppressed.

I've endured his wrath myself and wholly deserved it (that can't be hard for you to believe).

As or this passage, we read also in Hebrews discussions of repentance, forgiveness, mercy, and so on. Further, the writer is continuing a thought (note the "For ..."), in which he urges against doctrines of constant repenting and constant dwelling on the topics of baptism, chrismation, and eschatology and instead urges theosis. The passage in question says nothing about hell or damnation, by the way. And what does it mean to "taste ... the powers of the world to come"? At any rate, the teaching here is that it is impossible for those who meet whatever this description is to be renewed again to repent. Adding "God makes them so" and "then they suffer eternal torment" are embellishments of your own. But I'm forced to leave it to others to say if there is a Church consensus for this passage and what that exposition would be.
What do you mean by merciful to be oppressed? And how do you know you have endured God's wrath, how do you experience God?

Regarding the mentioned chapter in hebrews; you say that it teaches that it is impossible for them to be renewed again to repent? Now what does that mean? If one can't repent, then one is going to hell right? So, basically it seems to mean that one is damned?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #121 on: July 03, 2017, 02:22:58 PM »
What do you mean by merciful to be oppressed?

I'm sorry, but has this concept really never crossed your mind? You are angry at God too much of the time to notice the evil men do? Perhaps that Bible you search day after day could yield you some illumination of the concept. God is the stay and the rescuer of the poor, the orphan, the stranger (immigrant), and the martyr. They cry to him hourly and he hears them and waxes wroth. Only because his mercy is so much greater than his judgment does he hold off on becoming their avenger as well, until nothing further can be done for the oppressor and he meets his well-deserved doom. What kosmos would we live in where no evil men suffered for the things they do?

Quote
And how do you know you have endured God's wrath, how do you experience God?

I have suffered much, my friend, and it has taught me much against my will. Gosh, at one time I was even a young man like you -- and how much changing I needed to do, since my daily way of thinking in my proud naivete was practically sociopathic. More recently, I have been a harsh father, and God has come to my daughters' rescue by chastising me in ways that were painful and hard to endure and brought me to stomach-wrenching tears in the nighttime. To suffer enough brings me humiliation and quietude, which work secretly and diligently to recreate me and heal my soul.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #122 on: July 03, 2017, 02:27:43 PM »
What do you mean by merciful to be oppressed?

I'm sorry, but has this concept really never crossed your mind? You are angry at God too much of the time to notice the evil men do? Perhaps that Bible you search day after day could yield you some illumination of the concept. God is the stay and the rescuer of the poor, the orphan, the stranger (immigrant), and the martyr. They cry to him hourly and he hears them and waxes wroth. Only because his mercy is so much greater than his judgment does he hold off on becoming their avenger as well, until nothing further can be done for the oppressor and he meets his well-deserved doom. What kosmos would we live in where no evil men suffered for the things they do?

Quote
And how do you know you have endured God's wrath, how do you experience God?

I have suffered much, my friend, and it has taught me much against my will. Gosh, at one time I was even a young man like you -- and how much changing I needed to do, since my daily way of thinking in my proud naivete was practically sociopathic. More recently, I have been a harsh father, and God has come to my daughters' rescue by chastising me in ways that were painful and hard to endure and brought me to stomach-wrenching tears in the nighttime. To suffer enough brings me humiliation and quietude, which work secretly and diligently to recreate me and heal my soul.
Wait. Are you meaning merciful to THE oppressed or merciful to BE oppressed? How is being oppressed ever a good thing, except that one might learn from it that oppression is bad? I think we misunderstood each other there?

I see, thank you for giving an example. Appreciate it.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #123 on: July 03, 2017, 02:33:30 PM »
How is being oppressed ever a good thing ...

The oppressor being oppressed? How could that not be a good thing?

Quote
... except that one might learn from it that oppression is bad?

Certainly there's that. Altho that is a simplification of what is learnt and how. We must learn to become divine, and the process is subtle and soulful.

Now I think I get what you're implying in this post -- that only bad people punish, and that punishment is bad. What is the child to learn from being deprived of lunch -- to deprive others of lunch? And so on. If this is your implication, then we have a fundamental difference. I would call your view a lack of understanding of facts and human nature and a fetishism of a fad. But that would be unhelpful. Intead, I'll just reassert my personal experience that, yes, "Whom he loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every one whom he receiveth," and it is good.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #124 on: July 03, 2017, 02:39:38 PM »
How is being oppressed ever a good thing ...

The oppressor being oppressed? How could that not be a good thing?

Quote
... except that one might learn from it that oppression is bad?

Certainly there's that. Altho that is a simplification of what is learnt and how. We must learn to become divine, and the process is subtle and soulful.

Now I think I get what you're implying in this post -- that only bad people punish, and that punishment is bad. What is the child to learn from being deprived of lunch -- to deprive others of lunch? And so on. If this is your implication, then we have a fundamental difference. I would call your view a lack of understanding of facts and human nature and a fetishism of a fad. But that would be unhelpful. Intead, I'll just reassert my personal experience that, yes, "Whom he loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every one whom he receiveth," and it is good.
No I simply just thought you meant that it is a good thing to be oppressed, I didn't know you were talking about oppressors. Now, I can accept that an oppressor deserves punishment and correction, but why oppression though?

'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #125 on: July 04, 2017, 08:54:19 AM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
i guess the Jesus seminar "scholars" do too .
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Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #126 on: July 04, 2017, 08:58:58 AM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
i guess the Jesus seminar "scholars" do too .
Who are they and what about them?
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #127 on: July 04, 2017, 09:48:24 AM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
i guess the Jesus seminar "scholars" do too .
Who are they and what about them?
They promoted their theory that Jesus was a great mortal rabbi who haad much worldly wisdom. They also promoted the "gospel" of Thomas. I am having trouble posting a link on my iPhone. An easy Wikipedia s arch will bring them up and wiki is ok here.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 09:48:58 AM by recent convert »
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #128 on: July 04, 2017, 10:35:30 AM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
i guess the Jesus seminar "scholars" do too .
Who are they and what about them?
They promoted their theory that Jesus was a great mortal rabbi who haad much worldly wisdom. They also promoted the "gospel" of Thomas. I am having trouble posting a link on my iPhone. An easy Wikipedia s arch will bring them up and wiki is ok here.
Actually, that summation gives too much credit to Jesus, at least based on their early work. I haven't followed it in about 10 years.
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #129 on: July 04, 2017, 10:42:33 AM »
They had a thing for beads, IIRC.
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #130 on: July 04, 2017, 11:59:26 AM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
i guess the Jesus seminar "scholars" do too .
:laugh:

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #131 on: July 04, 2017, 12:13:56 PM »
They had a thing for beads, IIRC.

*ding ding*

Yeah they were a handful of hubristic old textual critics and other scholars that "proved" the "real Jesus" spoke only a handful of words attributed to him. They did this partly in the standard old German way of discernment: "Here he contradicts himself, or contradicts his Apostles or the Church, so this proves his true words have been accidentally preserved" and partly in a novel way: If any of them "felt" the "authentic" words of Jesus were being read at their conference, each would silently drop a bead in a bucket as a vote.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #132 on: July 04, 2017, 12:16:19 PM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
i guess the Jesus seminar "scholars" do too .

I'm guessing Mina's point was more-nearly to ask why one would reject the Church on these matters, considering her vast knowledge over centuries the individual can't hope to rival.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy