Author Topic: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?  (Read 2681 times)

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Offline Helladius

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2017, 09:55:12 AM »
I heard a wonderful sermon last Sunday which included the advice to try constantly to give thanks to God - to cultivate an attitude/behaviour of thankfulness, regardless of whether or not we're feeling thankful. With time, that helps to heal anxieties and give God's peace in our hearts, the priest said.

I find it only too easy to spend a lot of time worrying and criticising and feeling despondent, and can slip into a downcast state of mind where I'm fixated on asking why why why all these bad things are/happen. It's part of many mental illnesses - anxiety, depression, many others I'm sure. When we suffer from mental illness, our brains are suffering from an inbalance, and it's really easy to fixate on the negative, but that's just a downwards spiral that never makes anything better. Whereas, I've been trying this attitude of thankfulness to God, even when I'm feeling anxious and downcast, and already it's helping. I've just been trying to stay in the present moment (because, as my priest says to me, it's in the present moment that we meet God) and thank God for His blessings in the present moment when I get a chance - on the bus, walking around, getting up in the morning, etc. - especially when I'm feeling in a negative frame of mind. There's such joy in the little things that I often overlook like "Thank You Lord for the beauty of the sky and clouds, Thank You for sunshine, Thank You for my lovely cat and his company right now," etc. Maybe it sounds childish, but we are called to be like children in a way and it gets back to the simplicity of being thankful and joyful in the present moment for the constant wonders of little things, more like children are.

How about giving this a try for a couple of weeks, Beebert?? See if it helps? Committing for a couple of weeks to really trying not to fixate on negativity but instead to keep saying thank You to the Creator for all the blessings around you and in your life in the present moment. 
'Be extremely careful not to offend anyone in word or deed, for it is a grave sin. When someone is offended, God, who loves the man, is also offended, for there can be no offending man without offending God.'
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Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2017, 05:02:14 PM »
I heard a wonderful sermon last Sunday which included the advice to try constantly to give thanks to God - to cultivate an attitude/behaviour of thankfulness, regardless of whether or not we're feeling thankful. With time, that helps to heal anxieties and give God's peace in our hearts, the priest said.

I find it only too easy to spend a lot of time worrying and criticising and feeling despondent, and can slip into a downcast state of mind where I'm fixated on asking why why why all these bad things are/happen. It's part of many mental illnesses - anxiety, depression, many others I'm sure. When we suffer from mental illness, our brains are suffering from an inbalance, and it's really easy to fixate on the negative, but that's just a downwards spiral that never makes anything better. Whereas, I've been trying this attitude of thankfulness to God, even when I'm feeling anxious and downcast, and already it's helping. I've just been trying to stay in the present moment (because, as my priest says to me, it's in the present moment that we meet God) and thank God for His blessings in the present moment when I get a chance - on the bus, walking around, getting up in the morning, etc. - especially when I'm feeling in a negative frame of mind. There's such joy in the little things that I often overlook like "Thank You Lord for the beauty of the sky and clouds, Thank You for sunshine, Thank You for my lovely cat and his company right now," etc. Maybe it sounds childish, but we are called to be like children in a way and it gets back to the simplicity of being thankful and joyful in the present moment for the constant wonders of little things, more like children are.

How about giving this a try for a couple of weeks, Beebert?? See if it helps? Committing for a couple of weeks to really trying not to fixate on negativity but instead to keep saying thank You to the Creator for all the blessings around you and in your life in the present moment.
That might be something. Praising in spite of... Thank you
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2017, 05:19:18 PM »
Satan quoted Scripture, too (and to God's face).  Do you think Scripture is Satanic because of who quoted it?  Why blame the Scripture or the Faith because some twist it?  Why not blame the one who twists instead?
That is what I did. I didnt blame scripture. I blamed MacArthur for making it impossible for me to read the bible as the orthodox seems to read it. It is ingrained. I cant seem to get away with it. It is as if my brain, my nervous system, all my body and soul, tells me urgently that I am in a life-threatening situation everytime I read Paul's epistles for example.


If you're afraid that you've been programmed to read the Scriptures in a way that's neither orthodox nor Orthodox, then stop reading them for a while and read the Fathers instead, and allow them to re-program you.  Once that's done (understanding their approach to life, Christ, the scriptures, the faith, etc.), then re-introduce yourself to the Scriptures.  This is a multi-year process.

Please: read responsibly.

+1

There are parts of the Scriptures that I still find hard to read without seeing the false interpretations I was taught, and so I tend to stick to other parts - primarily the Gospels and the Psalms. The epistles I too find hard.

Beebert, you really do need to stop reading / listening to things that spark off these thoughts. In another thread, Mor gave you the advice to just stick to John's gospel. Father George has also given you good advice, but.....

For any of this advice, or that given by many others here, is to have any benefit, you need to act on it. Now. Otherwise you are like a patient who goes to a doctor, gets the medicine he needs, and then leaves it on the shelf, goes to another doctor, gets more medicine, leaves it on the shelf, goes to another doctor.....

Throw away the books by authors who provoke you. Delete the links to sites of preachers of hatred. Resolve only to read the gospels, and those authors who stir you to love. Walk away from the topics on here that cause angst not benefit. Just do it!
Okay... Thanks. BTW : The thing you Said about going to doctors and then leave the medication on the shelf: I am literally doing that too. Perhaps we human beings have something unconcious within us that actually seeks and yearns for Self-destruction. I firmly believe that
Don't be afraid to take the medicine. It can be a very helpful part of your overall healing.

As for the self-destruction, yes, and I think Porter's got the diagnosis right. We were created by God for life, but the enemy of our souls seeks to destroy us. But we do not need to fear, if we are united with Christ who is the Life.
Well the thing is that the message of God tells me this: "I created you. I gave you the greatest honor of all, to rule and be the crown of my creation. My image, holy. But immediately you rebelled. I gave you blessings through Abraham, but all his descendants rebelled. I freed you from Egypt, but you rebelled again. I gave you the law, and you broke it. I sent you prophets, but pleaded like a man to his adultoruos wife 'come back!', but you killed the prophets too. Then I thought; 'I send then my own beloved son, so that they can all be saved who believe in him'. But you crucified him! Now I said 'If you only Believe in his atoning death, you will be saved... And as a free gift I will give you eternal life in bliss' Now there is no excuse! Look at all you have killed, if you don't Believe now, I will infinitely torture you without end."

Now of course one can view that as infinite love and mercy, that despite man's rebellion he uses that rebellion to give man eternal life as a free gift. But. He is both omnipotent and omniscient. That throws a whole new problem in it all. Now suddenly he knew and planned it right from start and still created all who would reject him... I cant stop feeling that I didnt ask for all this. I would be very happy to give up eternal life If I could then also eliminate the existence of hell. Hell simply makes heaven not worth it for me. I would rather want nothingness than this hideous division between sheeps and goats, righteous and wicked, saved and damned... I would Thank God if this life was it. If eternal life=living in the present to the fullest. If I could just enjoy music, living in a cottage calmly in peace without harming anyone. Then resting forever, like an eternal, dreamless sleep. That would be better than the eternal division into two camps
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 05:21:47 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline eddybear

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2017, 05:52:09 PM »
Well the thing is that the message of God tells me this: "I created you. I gave you the greatest honor of all, to rule and be the crown of my creation. My image, holy. But immediately you rebelled. I gave you blessings through Abraham, but all his descendants rebelled. I freed you from Egypt, but you rebelled again. I gave you the law, and you broke it. I sent you prophets, but pleaded like a man to his adultoruos wife 'come back!', but you killed the prophets too. Then I thought; 'I send then my own beloved son, so that they can all be saved who believe in him'. But you crucified him! Now I said 'If you only Believe in his atoning death, you will be saved... And as a free gift I will give you eternal life in bliss' Now there is no excuse! Look at all you have killed, if you don't Believe now, I will infinitely torture you without end."  there is nothing else that can save you from the destruction you are bringing upon yourself
I was with you until that last phrase. God doesn't torture people infinitely. I've been so bold as to suggest an edit.

Did you ever get round to reading CS Lewis's book that I recommended, "The Great Divorce"? I really do think it might help you see things from a different angle.



Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2017, 06:35:22 PM »
Well the thing is that the message of God tells me this: "I created you. I gave you the greatest honor of all, to rule and be the crown of my creation. My image, holy. But immediately you rebelled. I gave you blessings through Abraham, but all his descendants rebelled. I freed you from Egypt, but you rebelled again. I gave you the law, and you broke it. I sent you prophets, but pleaded like a man to his adultoruos wife 'come back!', but you killed the prophets too. Then I thought; 'I send then my own beloved son, so that they can all be saved who believe in him'. But you crucified him! Now I said 'If you only Believe in his atoning death, you will be saved... And as a free gift I will give you eternal life in bliss' Now there is no excuse! Look at all you have killed, if you don't Believe now, I will infinitely torture you without end."  there is nothing else that can save you from the destruction you are bringing upon yourself
I was with you until that last phrase. God doesn't torture people infinitely. I've been so bold as to suggest an edit.

Did you ever get round to reading CS Lewis's book that I recommended, "The Great Divorce"? I really do think it might help you see things from a different angle.
I Hope what you are saying is true... But from the basis of the scripture, I am afraid that both you and CS Lewis are sort of adapting yourself to what People would rather want to hear. I am not saying this is necessairly so, but bug fear that is what many of us do. After all, God did also kill all humankind in the flood, but then nothing good came out of it anyway, life was still miserable and God was still angry. He hated Esau, killed the caananites, was unforgiving and harsch to the weak israelites. He was forgiving to David but not at all to Saul. Some say that is because David loved God while Saul didnt. But who enables man to love God? His grace. Saul asked for forgiveness. Scripture suggests God just randomly hated Saul while loving David. Despite the fact that it seems like David was just as great a sinner, if not worse. All these killings in the old testament ordered and executed by God, do they really suggest that "there is nothing else that can save you from the destruction you are bringing upon yourself"? Now Jesus; regarding his judgement, he continuosly seems to speak about an active punishment. So does all the apostles, not to speak of John who wrote revelation. Words like vengeance, wrath, retribution comes to mind. I suggest that most of the writers in the old testament, described a Culture that was barbarian and stupid. And I think the same stupidity is seen sometimes in the new testament. Sorry to say that, but it was after all the new testament that introduced Expressions like 'eternal fire', 'fire and brimstone' 'smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever', 'lake of fire', etc. And Jesus once again; he spoke about these things and about how God would slice people up Into pieces and cast then out in utter darkeness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. And much else.

There is no wonder that christianity has been so violent when one observes what the texts actually say. Now I have read the baghavad gita, and to me that book expresses the beautiful things in the Christian message in a profounder way. Turning the other cheek, love enemies etc. Seems incompatible with slicing People in to pieces etc.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2017, 07:40:52 PM »
The irony, it hurts. The Baghavad Gita is the discourse of a war god. The Golden Rule is from the Bible.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2017, 07:59:42 PM »
The irony, it hurts. The Baghavad Gita is the discourse of a war god. The Golden Rule is from the Bible.
I know what the baghavad gita is about. There is no eternal torture there. Dont Tell me the God of the old testament isnt a war god. BTW, what is the orthodox view about the fact that Jesus quite clearly taught in for example Luke 21 that he would return any minute after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem? In other words it seems to me like according to himself he would have returned a long time ago? Or am I missing something? Also, does 3 equal 1?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 08:01:26 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2017, 08:00:48 PM »
The irony, it hurts. The Baghavad Gita is the discourse of a war god. The Golden Rule is from the Bible.
I know what the baghavad gita is about. There is no eternal torture there. BTW, what is the orthodox view about the fact that Jesus quite clearly taught in for example Luke 21 that he would return any minute after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem? In other words it seems to me like according to himself he would have returned a long time ago? Or am I missing something? Also, does 3 equal 1?

No you don't.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #53 on: July 02, 2017, 08:03:19 PM »
The irony, it hurts. The Baghavad Gita is the discourse of a war god. The Golden Rule is from the Bible.
I know what the baghavad gita is about. There is no eternal torture there. BTW, what is the orthodox view about the fact that Jesus quite clearly taught in for example Luke 21 that he would return any minute after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem? In other words it seems to me like according to himself he would have returned a long time ago? Or am I missing something? Also, does 3 equal 1?

No you don't.
You are a ridiculous and silly little man. The message of Baghavad Gita is quite christian. And speaking of war god, don't tell me God of the old testament isnt a war god. Baghavad Gita is profound in a way the old testament isnt, for it gives an explanation of war that the bible doesnt. In a sense, the Baghavad Gita can help to justify the actions of Jahveh and his barbaric tribe of Israel in the old testament and make them more... Sane.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 08:08:04 PM by beebert »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2017, 08:14:53 PM »
The divine mandate for castes and wars as narrated by a god on the cusp of exterminating an arbitrary half of an ancient and noble clan inspires you, but the Book in which a god spends his short life teaching forgiveness and gives his very life for his friends fills you with loathing. Got it.

At this point all I'd ask is you start citing your claims about Holy Scripture, as you've spent weeks here making assertions and characterizations about its content without one reference, and I can assure your readers these are far, far from being accurate. I think just to protect yourself from assumptions of libel you'll want to start to cite.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2017, 08:35:21 PM »
The divine mandate for castes and wars as narrated by a god on the cusp of exterminating an arbitrary half of an ancient and noble clan inspires you, but the Book in which a god spends his short life teaching forgiveness and gives his very life for his friends fills you with loathing. Got it.

At this point all I'd ask is you start citing your claims about Holy Scripture, as you've spent weeks here making assertions and characterizations about its content without one reference, and I can assure your readers these are far, far from being accurate. I think just to protect yourself from assumptions of libel you'll want to start to cite.
I Believe the apostles distorted Christ's message Into a message of hopelessness and bad news for the majority of mankind. Especially Paul who started to theologize and interpet things almost like a professor of dogmatics. I compared the baghavad gita btw to the bloody war parts of the bible, and Said that the gita is much more profound there. I mean, comparing it to revelation of John for example. It seems ironic that both the gospel of John and the revelation were by an author named John, and even more ironic that the early church thought it was the same author, even though one has a Good and sophisticated Language while the other one writes as if he had just learned how to spell. Also, one has a message of love and faith,  the other one a message of revenge and hate. Did John start to become bitter, or were they two different authors? I dislike the fact that as a 'Christian', I am not aloud to dislike anything in the old testament. I MUST revere Paul, Peter, John and John, James, Moses, Joshua, etc. While in my heart I am thinking: "An immortal John of Patmos... Who would endure that?". Christ is the only one I really can stand in the gospel right now. And the apostle John(as long as he didnt write the book of revelation).

Do you ask me to quote scripture? What for? To prove I have read it? Which parts shall I quote?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 08:41:26 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2017, 08:41:27 PM »
The divine mandate for castes and wars as narrated by a god on the cusp of exterminating an arbitrary half of an ancient and noble clan inspires you, but the Book in which a god spends his short life teaching forgiveness and gives his very life for his friends fills you with loathing. Got it.

At this point all I'd ask is you start citing your claims about Holy Scripture, as you've spent weeks here making assertions and characterizations about its content without one reference, and I can assure your readers these are far, far from being accurate. I think just to protect yourself from assumptions of libel you'll want to start to cite.
I Believe the apostles distorted Christ's message Into a message of hopelessness and bad news for the majority of mankind. Especially Paul who started to theologize and interpet things almost like a dogmatician. I compared the baghavad gita btw to the bloody war parts of the bible, and Said that the gita is much more profound there. I mean, comparing it to revelation of John for example. It seems ironic that both the gospel of John and the revelation were by an author named John, and even more ironic that the early church thought it was the same author, even though one has a Good and sophisticated Language while the other one writes as if he had just learned how to spell. Also, one has a message of love and faith,  the other one a message of revenge and hate. Did John start to become bitter, or were they two different authors? I dislike the fact that as a 'Christian', I am not aloud to dislike anything in the old testament. I MUST revere Paul, Peter, John and John, James, Moses, Joshua, etc. While in my heart I am thinking: "An immortal John of Patmos... Who would endure that?"

Do you ask me to quote scripture? What for? To prove I have read it? Which parts shall I quote?

So you feel you should call our saints demons and retards without the slightest obligation to show it by citations?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2017, 08:46:41 PM »
Why is St. Paul being pilloried? I think he lays things out quite logically in Romans 1,2,& 3. ROmans 1& 3 pertain the precarious situation of humanity but he recognizes that any individual may do what is rigjt by what is right in natural law in Romans 2. Why is preaching a non judgmental warning wrong? do you have a better solution?
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Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #58 on: July 02, 2017, 08:46:46 PM »
The divine mandate for castes and wars as narrated by a god on the cusp of exterminating an arbitrary half of an ancient and noble clan inspires you, but the Book in which a god spends his short life teaching forgiveness and gives his very life for his friends fills you with loathing. Got it.

At this point all I'd ask is you start citing your claims about Holy Scripture, as you've spent weeks here making assertions and characterizations about its content without one reference, and I can assure your readers these are far, far from being accurate. I think just to protect yourself from assumptions of libel you'll want to start to cite.
I Believe the apostles distorted Christ's message Into a message of hopelessness and bad news for the majority of mankind. Especially Paul who started to theologize and interpet things almost like a dogmatician. I compared the baghavad gita btw to the bloody war parts of the bible, and Said that the gita is much more profound there. I mean, comparing it to revelation of John for example. It seems ironic that both the gospel of John and the revelation were by an author named John, and even more ironic that the early church thought it was the same author, even though one has a Good and sophisticated Language while the other one writes as if he had just learned how to spell. Also, one has a message of love and faith,  the other one a message of revenge and hate. Did John start to become bitter, or were they two different authors? I dislike the fact that as a 'Christian', I am not aloud to dislike anything in the old testament. I MUST revere Paul, Peter, John and John, James, Moses, Joshua, etc. While in my heart I am thinking: "An immortal John of Patmos... Who would endure that?"

Do you ask me to quote scripture? What for? To prove I have read it? Which parts shall I quote?

So you feel you should call our saints demons and retards without the slightest obligation to show it by citations?
My bible is in swedish so give me a minute to look up in English. I didnt call them demons. Retards to some extent maybe though. I don't venerate them, that is for sure Imagine: If John of Patmos, that blood thirsty and bitter little cave man, will judge the world (Paul says the saints will judge the world! Aha! Great moment for revenge!), who will be saved?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 08:47:39 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2017, 08:51:47 PM »
Why is St. Paul being pilloried? I think he lays things out quite logically in Romans 1,2,& 3. ROmans 1& 3 pertain the precarious situation of humanity but he recognizes that any individual may do what is rigjt by what is right in natural law in Romans 2. Why is preaching a non judgmental warning wrong? do you have a better solution?
It is Paul's obsession with election and predestination that I can't stand. Other than that I find many parts of his writings really good, even inspiring. Also, why doesnt he say anything about the life of Christ? Didnt it interest him? Did he hate this life so much?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 08:53:34 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2017, 08:52:27 PM »
The divine mandate for castes and wars as narrated by a god on the cusp of exterminating an arbitrary half of an ancient and noble clan inspires you, but the Book in which a god spends his short life teaching forgiveness and gives his very life for his friends fills you with loathing. Got it.

At this point all I'd ask is you start citing your claims about Holy Scripture, as you've spent weeks here making assertions and characterizations about its content without one reference, and I can assure your readers these are far, far from being accurate. I think just to protect yourself from assumptions of libel you'll want to start to cite.
I Believe the apostles distorted Christ's message Into a message of hopelessness and bad news for the majority of mankind. Especially Paul who started to theologize and interpet things almost like a dogmatician. I compared the baghavad gita btw to the bloody war parts of the bible, and Said that the gita is much more profound there. I mean, comparing it to revelation of John for example. It seems ironic that both the gospel of John and the revelation were by an author named John, and even more ironic that the early church thought it was the same author, even though one has a Good and sophisticated Language while the other one writes as if he had just learned how to spell. Also, one has a message of love and faith,  the other one a message of revenge and hate. Did John start to become bitter, or were they two different authors? I dislike the fact that as a 'Christian', I am not aloud to dislike anything in the old testament. I MUST revere Paul, Peter, John and John, James, Moses, Joshua, etc. While in my heart I am thinking: "An immortal John of Patmos... Who would endure that?"

Do you ask me to quote scripture? What for? To prove I have read it? Which parts shall I quote?

So you feel you should call our saints demons and retards without the slightest obligation to show it by citations?
My bible is in swedish so give me a minute to look up in English. I didnt call them demons. Retards to some extent maybe though. I don't venerate them, that is for sure Imagine: If John of Patmos, that blood thirsty and bitter little cave man, will judge the world (Paul says the saints will judge the world! Aha! Great moment for revenge!), who will be saved?

Not the Swedish Bible translators, that's for sure. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #61 on: July 02, 2017, 08:52:54 PM »
Why is St. Paul being pilloried? I think he lays things out quite logically in Romans 1,2,& 3. ROmans 1& 3 pertain the precarious situation of humanity but he recognizes that any individual may do what is rigjt by what is right in natural law in Romans 2. Why is preaching a non judgmental warning wrong? do you have a better solution?
It is Paul's obsession with election and predestination that I can't stand. Other than that I find many parts of his writings really good, even inspiring.

Paul doesn't spend his time posting here about election and predestination. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #62 on: July 02, 2017, 08:59:33 PM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine. 
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #63 on: July 02, 2017, 09:03:56 PM »
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #64 on: July 02, 2017, 09:20:14 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibUI71c84tg

A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?

At least he is consistent.  Most Protestants these days are not and have retreated into a sort of relativistic pluralism.

I'd prefer Protestants actually believe their version of Christianity is true than those who don't even believe there is a church that possesses the Truth.

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #65 on: July 02, 2017, 09:32:01 PM »
Why is St. Paul being pilloried? I think he lays things out quite logically in Romans 1,2,& 3. ROmans 1& 3 pertain the precarious situation of humanity but he recognizes that any individual may do what is rigjt by what is right in natural law in Romans 2. Why is preaching a non judgmental warning wrong? do you have a better solution?
It is Paul's obsession with election and predestination that I can't stand. Other than that I find many parts of his writings really good, even inspiring. Also, why doesnt he say anything about the life of Christ? Didnt it interest him? Did he hate this life so much?

Here you go again making outrageous claims but not the slightest citation for them. St. Paul spoke and wrote considerably about Christ, including one of the important accounts of the Last Supper.

The divine mandate for castes and wars as narrated by a god on the cusp of exterminating an arbitrary half of an ancient and noble clan inspires you, but the Book in which a god spends his short life teaching forgiveness and gives his very life for his friends fills you with loathing. Got it.

At this point all I'd ask is you start citing your claims about Holy Scripture, as you've spent weeks here making assertions and characterizations about its content without one reference, and I can assure your readers these are far, far from being accurate. I think just to protect yourself from assumptions of libel you'll want to start to cite.
I Believe the apostles distorted Christ's message Into a message of hopelessness and bad news for the majority of mankind. Especially Paul who started to theologize and interpet things almost like a dogmatician. I compared the baghavad gita btw to the bloody war parts of the bible, and Said that the gita is much more profound there. I mean, comparing it to revelation of John for example. It seems ironic that both the gospel of John and the revelation were by an author named John, and even more ironic that the early church thought it was the same author, even though one has a Good and sophisticated Language while the other one writes as if he had just learned how to spell. Also, one has a message of love and faith,  the other one a message of revenge and hate. Did John start to become bitter, or were they two different authors? I dislike the fact that as a 'Christian', I am not aloud to dislike anything in the old testament. I MUST revere Paul, Peter, John and John, James, Moses, Joshua, etc. While in my heart I am thinking: "An immortal John of Patmos... Who would endure that?"

Do you ask me to quote scripture? What for? To prove I have read it? Which parts shall I quote?

So you feel you should call our saints demons and retards without the slightest obligation to show it by citations?
My bible is in swedish so give me a minute to look up in English.

 No need. The reference numbers are international.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #66 on: July 02, 2017, 09:36:13 PM »
The divine mandate for castes and wars as narrated by a god on the cusp of exterminating an arbitrary half of an ancient and noble clan inspires you, but the Book in which a god spends his short life teaching forgiveness and gives his very life for his friends fills you with loathing. Got it.

At this point all I'd ask is you start citing your claims about Holy Scripture, as you've spent weeks here making assertions and characterizations about its content without one reference, and I can assure your readers these are far, far from being accurate. I think just to protect yourself from assumptions of libel you'll want to start to cite.
I Believe the apostles distorted Christ's message Into a message of hopelessness and bad news for the majority of mankind. Especially Paul who started to theologize and interpet things almost like a dogmatician. I compared the baghavad gita btw to the bloody war parts of the bible, and Said that the gita is much more profound there. I mean, comparing it to revelation of John for example. It seems ironic that both the gospel of John and the revelation were by an author named John, and even more ironic that the early church thought it was the same author, even though one has a Good and sophisticated Language while the other one writes as if he had just learned how to spell. Also, one has a message of love and faith,  the other one a message of revenge and hate. Did John start to become bitter, or were they two different authors? I dislike the fact that as a 'Christian', I am not aloud to dislike anything in the old testament. I MUST revere Paul, Peter, John and John, James, Moses, Joshua, etc. While in my heart I am thinking: "An immortal John of Patmos... Who would endure that?"

Do you ask me to quote scripture? What for? To prove I have read it? Which parts shall I quote?

So you feel you should call our saints demons and retards without the slightest obligation to show it by citations?
Examples of texts I don't like:

First, there are two places where Paul speaks about how God foreknew, then predestined, then elected etc. I dont like those but cant find them either. Romans 1,2,3(yes, I realized I dont like these chapters except a few passaged), 9(whole chapter), 12:19-21, 13 (whole chapter, from now on I dont write 'whole chapter' Hur everything where a number stands alone means I dislike the whole chapter basically). Corinthians 7 and 11. Galatians 1, 5, 6. Ephesians 1, 4:18-19. 2nd Thesselonians 2:1-12. First Timothy 2:11-15 (Though here I somewhat understands Paul, But I dont think Christ would have agreed), 5. Second Timothy 3. Titus 2. Hebrews... Ugh. Chapter 2, 3, 6, 10, 12, 13. The letter of Peter I dislike from start to finish, both if them. Same with Jude. And the Book of revelationI would like to tear out from the bible, except a few parts of it. The gospels I like, except some of the parables that ends with Christ throwing people out in utter darkeness and casting them in to an everlasting fire and talking about and unforgivable sin that no one really understands what it is.

« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 09:37:30 PM by beebert »
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #67 on: July 02, 2017, 09:42:44 PM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
I dont. I confess that Perhaps it is better in that language. But at the same time almost everyone says God's Word is infallible, that it is all inspired etc. Of Course the writers were inspired. Infallible? Hardly. If so, then lsnguage wouldnt matter because God would make sure all translations were perfect. Or no? One must know koine greek and hebrew? Then perhaps the pope (even though he spoke and read latin) had a point when he forbade common man to read the scriptures.
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #68 on: July 02, 2017, 09:47:06 PM »
Why is St. Paul being pilloried? I think he lays things out quite logically in Romans 1,2,& 3. ROmans 1& 3 pertain the precarious situation of humanity but he recognizes that any individual may do what is rigjt by what is right in natural law in Romans 2. Why is preaching a non judgmental warning wrong? do you have a better solution?
It is Paul's obsession with election and predestination that I can't stand. Other than that I find many parts of his writings really good, even inspiring. Also, why doesnt he say anything about the life of Christ? Didnt it interest him? Did he hate this life so much?

Here you go again making outrageous claims but not the slightest citation for them. St. Paul spoke and wrote considerably about Christ, including one of the important accounts of the Last Supper.

The divine mandate for castes and wars as narrated by a god on the cusp of exterminating an arbitrary half of an ancient and noble clan inspires you, but the Book in which a god spends his short life teaching forgiveness and gives his very life for his friends fills you with loathing. Got it.

At this point all I'd ask is you start citing your claims about Holy Scripture, as you've spent weeks here making assertions and characterizations about its content without one reference, and I can assure your readers these are far, far from being accurate. I think just to protect yourself from assumptions of libel you'll want to start to cite.
I Believe the apostles distorted Christ's message Into a message of hopelessness and bad news for the majority of mankind. Especially Paul who started to theologize and interpet things almost like a dogmatician. I compared the baghavad gita btw to the bloody war parts of the bible, and Said that the gita is much more profound there. I mean, comparing it to revelation of John for example. It seems ironic that both the gospel of John and the revelation were by an author named John, and even more ironic that the early church thought it was the same author, even though one has a Good and sophisticated Language while the other one writes as if he had just learned how to spell. Also, one has a message of love and faith,  the other one a message of revenge and hate. Did John start to become bitter, or were they two different authors? I dislike the fact that as a 'Christian', I am not aloud to dislike anything in the old testament. I MUST revere Paul, Peter, John and John, James, Moses, Joshua, etc. While in my heart I am thinking: "An immortal John of Patmos... Who would endure that?"

Do you ask me to quote scripture? What for? To prove I have read it? Which parts shall I quote?

So you feel you should call our saints demons and retards without the slightest obligation to show it by citations?
My bible is in swedish so give me a minute to look up in English.

 No need. The reference numbers are international.
How can I make citation and references about things that arent there? Sure he spoke about the last supper briefly(that part I dislike too btw, how he makes up ground for superstition by saying how people die when they participate in the last supper)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 09:47:28 PM by beebert »
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2017, 09:47:53 PM »
Thank you. And the claim that the Gospel of John can hardly put a sentence together? Granted it's the book with the smallest vocabulary in Greek literature, but that's not the same thing. And most of your claims have been sweeping, that the Bible comprises no mercy or goodness or reason no matter how you search ... I'm not sure how you'd cite such universals, but some attempt at showing you speak in good faith would be in order. I'm blown away thinking what gall it must take to refer to your spiritual forbears as wretches, worthless, pure evil, and so on. I'm astounded that you'd expect anyone to hear you seriously and not assume you are motivated by juvenile malice to humiliate your fellow-posters. Worst, I'm afraid someone ignorant enough might believe you. All this could be partly remedied if you'd make some references to a book or a chapter when you speak.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #70 on: July 02, 2017, 09:48:56 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibUI71c84tg

A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?

At least he is consistent.  Most Protestants these days are not and have retreated into a sort of relativistic pluralism.

I'd prefer Protestants actually believe their version of Christianity is true than those who don't even believe there is a church that possesses the Truth.
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #71 on: July 02, 2017, 09:51:13 PM »
Thank you. And the claim that the Gospel of John can hardly put a sentence together? Granted it's the book with the smallest vocabulary in Greek literature, but that's not the same thing. And most of your claims have been sweeping, that the Bible comprises no mercy or goodness or reason no matter how you search ... I'm not sure how you'd cite such universals, but some attempt at showing you speak in good faith would be in order. I'm blown away thinking what gall it must take to refer to your spiritual forbears as wretches, worthless, pure evil, and so on. I'm astounded that you'd expect anyone to hear you seriously and not assume you are motivated by juvenile malice to humiliate your fellow-posters. Worst, I'm afraid someone ignorant enough might believe you. All this could be partly remedied if you'd make some references to a book or a chapter when you speak.
NO! The gospel of John CAN! I praised the gospel of John. I Said the Book of revelation seems to be written by someone who just learned how to spell. I dont understand what you mean about the rest? Believe me about what?
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Offline LBK

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2017, 09:54:49 PM »
I would rather be a jew than a member of Macarthur's Church.

Well, beebert, you're not in Macarthur's church, you're in the Orthodox Church. You can't heal a wound if you keep picking off the scab and scratching it raw again.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 09:56:28 PM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #73 on: July 02, 2017, 09:55:28 PM »
Thank you. And the claim that the Gospel of John can hardly put a sentence together? Granted it's the book with the smallest vocabulary in Greek literature, but that's not the same thing. And most of your claims have been sweeping, that the Bible comprises no mercy or goodness or reason no matter how you search ... I'm not sure how you'd cite such universals, but some attempt at showing you speak in good faith would be in order. I'm blown away thinking what gall it must take to refer to your spiritual forbears as wretches, worthless, pure evil, and so on. I'm astounded that you'd expect anyone to hear you seriously and not assume you are motivated by juvenile malice to humiliate your fellow-posters. Worst, I'm afraid someone ignorant enough might believe you. All this could be partly remedied if you'd make some references to a book or a chapter when you speak.
NO! The gospel of John CAN! I praised the gospel of John. I Said the Book of revelation seems to be written by someone who just learned how to spell. I dont understand what you mean about the rest? Believe me about what?

The Revelation is one of the densest, most profound works of poetry ever to fall from a pen. Some modern scholars may abuse Evangelists Mark and John's Greek as simple, but the Revelation is a tour du force. The poetic idiom of the rightly-famed Hebrew prophets was brought alive in Koine.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #74 on: July 02, 2017, 09:55:37 PM »
Thank you. And the claim that the Gospel of John can hardly put a sentence together? Granted it's the book with the smallest vocabulary in Greek literature, but that's not the same thing. And most of your claims have been sweeping, that the Bible comprises no mercy or goodness or reason no matter how you search ... I'm not sure how you'd cite such universals, but some attempt at showing you speak in good faith would be in order. I'm blown away thinking what gall it must take to refer to your spiritual forbears as wretches, worthless, pure evil, and so on. I'm astounded that you'd expect anyone to hear you seriously and not assume you are motivated by juvenile malice to humiliate your fellow-posters. Worst, I'm afraid someone ignorant enough might believe you. All this could be partly remedied if you'd make some references to a book or a chapter when you speak.
Also, the bible has tons of messages about mercy and forgiveness. Especially the gospels  (most of all Luke I would say). I have never Said anything about that not being true. But the combination of that with doctrines like predestination, election, foreknowledge, sovereignty, creation ex nihilo, eternal damnation in a lake of fire etc. Just makes it sort of "God is standing with a pistol" kind of situation to me
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #75 on: July 02, 2017, 09:58:25 PM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
I dont. I confess that Perhaps it is better in that language. But at the same time almost everyone says God's Word is infallible, that it is all inspired etc. Of Course the writers were inspired. Infallible? Hardly. If so, then lsnguage wouldnt matter because God would make sure all translations were perfect. Or no? One must know koine greek and hebrew? Then perhaps the pope (even though he spoke and read latin) had a point when he forbade common man to read the scriptures.

You know what you call a person who insults someone or something he doesn't understand or know?
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #76 on: July 02, 2017, 09:59:05 PM »
Thank you. And the claim that the Gospel of John can hardly put a sentence together? Granted it's the book with the smallest vocabulary in Greek literature, but that's not the same thing. And most of your claims have been sweeping, that the Bible comprises no mercy or goodness or reason no matter how you search ... I'm not sure how you'd cite such universals, but some attempt at showing you speak in good faith would be in order. I'm blown away thinking what gall it must take to refer to your spiritual forbears as wretches, worthless, pure evil, and so on. I'm astounded that you'd expect anyone to hear you seriously and not assume you are motivated by juvenile malice to humiliate your fellow-posters. Worst, I'm afraid someone ignorant enough might believe you. All this could be partly remedied if you'd make some references to a book or a chapter when you speak.
Also, the bible has tons of messages about mercy and forgiveness. Especially the gospels  (most of all Luke I would say). I have never Said anything about that not being true. But the combination of that with doctrines like predestination, election, foreknowledge, sovereignty, creation ex nihilo, eternal damnation in a lake of fire etc. Just makes it sort of "God is standing with a pistol" kind of situation to me

Yeah yeah you'll retreat to this kind of minimal criticism when you're confronted, and then an hour later you'll start a new thread saying you searched the Bible with tears and could find only the vilest sacrilege therein etc. etc. Look we have our share of self-obsessed posters, but not that many of them make the Holy Trinity their White Whale. You can't expect nods and smiles.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #77 on: July 02, 2017, 09:59:48 PM »
Thank you. And the claim that the Gospel of John can hardly put a sentence together? Granted it's the book with the smallest vocabulary in Greek literature, but that's not the same thing. And most of your claims have been sweeping, that the Bible comprises no mercy or goodness or reason no matter how you search ... I'm not sure how you'd cite such universals, but some attempt at showing you speak in good faith would be in order. I'm blown away thinking what gall it must take to refer to your spiritual forbears as wretches, worthless, pure evil, and so on. I'm astounded that you'd expect anyone to hear you seriously and not assume you are motivated by juvenile malice to humiliate your fellow-posters. Worst, I'm afraid someone ignorant enough might believe you. All this could be partly remedied if you'd make some references to a book or a chapter when you speak.
NO! The gospel of John CAN! I praised the gospel of John. I Said the Book of revelation seems to be written by someone who just learned how to spell. I dont understand what you mean about the rest? Believe me about what?

The Revelation is one of the densest, most profound works of poetry ever to fall from a pen. Some modern scholars may abuse Evangelists Mark and John's Greek as simple, but the Revelation is a tour du force. The poetic idiom of the rightly-famed Hebrew prophets was brought alive in Koine.
Hmm... Then Swedes are exceptionally bad translators. The best literary work in the new testament as I can see is the Gospel of John. Then comes some of Paul's epistles and the gospel of Luke. Though none of it is really close to the grandness of what I find in old testament Books like Isaiah and Job
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #78 on: July 02, 2017, 10:03:20 PM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
I dont. I confess that Perhaps it is better in that language. But at the same time almost everyone says God's Word is infallible, that it is all inspired etc. Of Course the writers were inspired. Infallible? Hardly. If so, then lsnguage wouldnt matter because God would make sure all translations were perfect. Or no? One must know koine greek and hebrew? Then perhaps the pope (even though he spoke and read latin) had a point when he forbade common man to read the scriptures.

You know what you call a person who insults someone or something he doesn't understand or know?
Did I insult You? It was not my intention. I apologize if you felt insulted. But what does one call someone like that? Or did you mean I insulted the bible because I Said I dont Believe it infallible? If I MUST Believe it infallible in order to live eternally than I would prefer eternal death. I dont accept that God ordered the slaughters of all those women and Children in the old testament (in Joshua)
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #79 on: July 02, 2017, 10:04:29 PM »
Thank you. And the claim that the Gospel of John can hardly put a sentence together? Granted it's the book with the smallest vocabulary in Greek literature, but that's not the same thing. And most of your claims have been sweeping, that the Bible comprises no mercy or goodness or reason no matter how you search ... I'm not sure how you'd cite such universals, but some attempt at showing you speak in good faith would be in order. I'm blown away thinking what gall it must take to refer to your spiritual forbears as wretches, worthless, pure evil, and so on. I'm astounded that you'd expect anyone to hear you seriously and not assume you are motivated by juvenile malice to humiliate your fellow-posters. Worst, I'm afraid someone ignorant enough might believe you. All this could be partly remedied if you'd make some references to a book or a chapter when you speak.
Also, the bible has tons of messages about mercy and forgiveness. Especially the gospels  (most of all Luke I would say). I have never Said anything about that not being true. But the combination of that with doctrines like predestination, election, foreknowledge, sovereignty, creation ex nihilo, eternal damnation in a lake of fire etc. Just makes it sort of "God is standing with a pistol" kind of situation to me

Yeah yeah you'll retreat to this kind of minimal criticism when you're confronted, and then an hour later you'll start a new thread saying you searched the Bible with tears and could find only the vilest sacrilege therein etc. etc. Look we have our share of self-obsessed posters, but not that many of them make the Holy Trinity their White Whale. You can't expect nods and smiles.
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #80 on: July 02, 2017, 10:08:38 PM »
Thank you. And the claim that the Gospel of John can hardly put a sentence together? Granted it's the book with the smallest vocabulary in Greek literature, but that's not the same thing. And most of your claims have been sweeping, that the Bible comprises no mercy or goodness or reason no matter how you search ... I'm not sure how you'd cite such universals, but some attempt at showing you speak in good faith would be in order. I'm blown away thinking what gall it must take to refer to your spiritual forbears as wretches, worthless, pure evil, and so on. I'm astounded that you'd expect anyone to hear you seriously and not assume you are motivated by juvenile malice to humiliate your fellow-posters. Worst, I'm afraid someone ignorant enough might believe you. All this could be partly remedied if you'd make some references to a book or a chapter when you speak.
NO! The gospel of John CAN! I praised the gospel of John. I Said the Book of revelation seems to be written by someone who just learned how to spell. I dont understand what you mean about the rest? Believe me about what?

The Revelation is one of the densest, most profound works of poetry ever to fall from a pen. Some modern scholars may abuse Evangelists Mark and John's Greek as simple, but the Revelation is a tour du force. The poetic idiom of the rightly-famed Hebrew prophets was brought alive in Koine.
Hmm... Then Swedes are exceptionally bad translators. The best literary work in the new testament as I can see is the Gospel of John. Then comes some of Paul's epistles and the gospel of Luke. Though none of it is really close to the grandness of what I find in old testament Books like Isaiah and Job

You'll get no argument from me there. The literary style of Gospel of John is pellucid and purely beautiful. It literally has no match or comparison. Yet it has borne its share of critical contempt. And then I'm not the one calling a Saint who wrote inspired scripture a caveman.
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #81 on: July 02, 2017, 10:59:08 PM »
If I MUST Believe it infallible in order to live eternally than I would prefer eternal death.

This would be an example of the speaking without understanding that others have pointed out.

Regardless of how you feel about God, the Old Testament, faith, etc., stating "If X in order to live eternally, then I would prefer eternal death," demonstrates a remarkable lack of imagination regarding what "eternal death" truly means.  I wouldn't wish Eternal Death on anyone - not even the worst genocidal maniacs of the 20th century.
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #82 on: July 03, 2017, 12:14:52 AM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
I dont. I confess that Perhaps it is better in that language. But at the same time almost everyone says God's Word is infallible, that it is all inspired etc. Of Course the writers were inspired. Infallible? Hardly. If so, then lsnguage wouldnt matter because God would make sure all translations were perfect. Or no? One must know koine greek and hebrew? Then perhaps the pope (even though he spoke and read latin) had a point when he forbade common man to read the scriptures.

You know what you call a person who insults someone or something he doesn't understand or know?
But what does one call someone like that?

Immature among other things
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #83 on: July 03, 2017, 04:26:26 AM »
If I MUST Believe it infallible in order to live eternally than I would prefer eternal death.

This would be an example of the speaking without understanding that others have pointed out.

Regardless of how you feel about God, the Old Testament, faith, etc., stating "If X in order to live eternally, then I would prefer eternal death," demonstrates a remarkable lack of imagination regarding what "eternal death" truly means.  I wouldn't wish Eternal Death on anyone - not even the worst genocidal maniacs of the 20th century.
Oh believe me, I have no lack of imagination there. But I am freaking TIRED of imagining it. I would rather kill myself. But it is good that you want nobody there, then we are two. And if anybody ends up there eternally... If Christ really closes a door forever, casting someone in to a burning fire that never ends and gets offended by some unforgivable sin that no one understands what it really is, then I consider saying no to heaven as well. I rather believe 98 percent or so of all christians completely lack imagination of what hell means, plus lack of an eternal quality of all those virtues they praise(except vengeance, wrath and what they pretend to be justice), otherwise they would see that the idea of eternal hellfire is unacceptable, cruel, and insane. Absolutely indefensible. BTW, why didnt any of the pharisees ask Christ about all the slaughters of women and children he comitted according to OT? That would have been my first question to him. And also, no one has actually still not answered; 1. How can God create something he foreknows will suffer forever? I mean, what God foreknows, he also wills. 2. How can God then even punish someone in such a way as eternal hell in a lake of fire when not one single human have even asked about being brought Into existence? Why do I need to praise God for life when I haven't asked for life? The conditions are horrible IMO and had I known them before being brought into existence I would have prefered to say no to all existence If I had the chance. You know what? Perhaps one does know. Perhaps that is why children scream and cry at birth(how a christian has the courage to have children is also beyond my understanding and seems like another example of the lack of imagination among christians when it comes to eternal hell in that fire). The idea and existence of eternal hell for ANY creature foreknown by God, makes creation an offence and a crimimal act as I see it, and I would really like it if anyone could actually give me a rational answer to the questions I posted here. BTW many christians like to call the holocaust divine punishment. And when reading scripture I can understand why they make such a conclusion. It also seems the apostle Paul would have said that Hitler served God, sense government etc is ordained by God. Personally I believe NO ONE has enough understanding about God for them to have no excuse so to that level that they deserve eternal torture on judgement day.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 04:29:34 AM by beebert »
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #84 on: July 03, 2017, 04:32:34 AM »
Thank you. And the claim that the Gospel of John can hardly put a sentence together? Granted it's the book with the smallest vocabulary in Greek literature, but that's not the same thing. And most of your claims have been sweeping, that the Bible comprises no mercy or goodness or reason no matter how you search ... I'm not sure how you'd cite such universals, but some attempt at showing you speak in good faith would be in order. I'm blown away thinking what gall it must take to refer to your spiritual forbears as wretches, worthless, pure evil, and so on. I'm astounded that you'd expect anyone to hear you seriously and not assume you are motivated by juvenile malice to humiliate your fellow-posters. Worst, I'm afraid someone ignorant enough might believe you. All this could be partly remedied if you'd make some references to a book or a chapter when you speak.
NO! The gospel of John CAN! I praised the gospel of John. I Said the Book of revelation seems to be written by someone who just learned how to spell. I dont understand what you mean about the rest? Believe me about what?

The Revelation is one of the densest, most profound works of poetry ever to fall from a pen. Some modern scholars may abuse Evangelists Mark and John's Greek as simple, but the Revelation is a tour du force. The poetic idiom of the rightly-famed Hebrew prophets was brought alive in Koine.
Hmm... Then Swedes are exceptionally bad translators. The best literary work in the new testament as I can see is the Gospel of John. Then comes some of Paul's epistles and the gospel of Luke. Though none of it is really close to the grandness of what I find in old testament Books like Isaiah and Job

You'll get no argument from me there. The literary style of Gospel of John is pellucid and purely beautiful. It literally has no match or comparison. Yet it has borne its share of critical contempt. And then I'm not the one calling a Saint who wrote inspired scripture a caveman.
So then we agree? But why did you first say that the gospel of John was not the same.quality of writing as the other gospels?
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #85 on: July 03, 2017, 04:44:26 AM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
I dont. I confess that Perhaps it is better in that language. But at the same time almost everyone says God's Word is infallible, that it is all inspired etc. Of Course the writers were inspired. Infallible? Hardly. If so, then lsnguage wouldnt matter because God would make sure all translations were perfect. Or no? One must know koine greek and hebrew? Then perhaps the pope (even though he spoke and read latin) had a point when he forbade common man to read the scriptures.

You know what you call a person who insults someone or something he doesn't understand or know?
But what does one call someone like that?

Immature among other things
Hey. It is the bible and its followers who claim to be in possesion of the truth. In that book, hell is mentioned qute often. So is predestination, election etc. Is it different in koine greek? If I can't comment on a book that claims to be the truth because I dont know koine greek, especially when wrong understanding of that book and any disobedience to it(where is the line drawn between fatal disobedience and non-fatal? Is it fatal to dislike almost half of the books, among them the Book of revelation?)has the most fatal consequences ever imagined, then boy are we all in trouble.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 04:50:00 AM by beebert »
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #86 on: July 03, 2017, 10:48:07 AM »
The divine mandate for castes and wars as narrated by a god on the cusp of exterminating an arbitrary half of an ancient and noble clan inspires you, but the Book in which a god spends his short life teaching forgiveness and gives his very life for his friends fills you with loathing. Got it.

At this point all I'd ask is you start citing your claims about Holy Scripture, as you've spent weeks here making assertions and characterizations about its content without one reference, and I can assure your readers these are far, far from being accurate. I think just to protect yourself from assumptions of libel you'll want to start to cite.
I Believe the apostles distorted Christ's message Into a message of hopelessness and bad news for the majority of mankind. Especially Paul who started to theologize and interpet things almost like a dogmatician. I compared the baghavad gita btw to the bloody war parts of the bible, and Said that the gita is much more profound there. I mean, comparing it to revelation of John for example. It seems ironic that both the gospel of John and the revelation were by an author named John, and even more ironic that the early church thought it was the same author, even though one has a Good and sophisticated Language while the other one writes as if he had just learned how to spell. Also, one has a message of love and faith,  the other one a message of revenge and hate. Did John start to become bitter, or were they two different authors? I dislike the fact that as a 'Christian', I am not aloud to dislike anything in the old testament. I MUST revere Paul, Peter, John and John, James, Moses, Joshua, etc. While in my heart I am thinking: "An immortal John of Patmos... Who would endure that?"

Do you ask me to quote scripture? What for? To prove I have read it? Which parts shall I quote?

So you feel you should call our saints demons and retards without the slightest obligation to show it by citations?
My bible is in swedish so give me a minute to look up in English. I didnt call them demons. Retards to some extent maybe though. I don't venerate them, that is for sure Imagine: If John of Patmos, that blood thirsty and bitter little cave man, will judge the world (Paul says the saints will judge the world! Aha! Great moment for revenge!), who will be saved?

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #87 on: July 03, 2017, 11:20:22 AM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
I dont. I confess that Perhaps it is better in that language. But at the same time almost everyone says God's Word is infallible, that it is all inspired etc. Of Course the writers were inspired. Infallible? Hardly. If so, then lsnguage wouldnt matter because God would make sure all translations were perfect. Or no? One must know koine greek and hebrew? Then perhaps the pope (even though he spoke and read latin) had a point when he forbade common man to read the scriptures.

You know what you call a person who insults someone or something he doesn't understand or know?
But what does one call someone like that?

Immature among other things
Hey. It is the bible and its followers who claim to be in possesion of the truth. In that book, hell is mentioned qute often. So is predestination, election etc. Is it different in koine greek? If I can't comment on a book that claims to be the truth because I dont know koine greek, especially when wrong understanding of that book and any disobedience to it(where is the line drawn between fatal disobedience and non-fatal? Is it fatal to dislike almost half of the books, among them the Book of revelation?)has the most fatal consequences ever imagined, then boy are we all in trouble.

No! We already answered those questions for you. You are too stubborn to accept them and you prefer your own reading of things.  You refuse to take good advise from time to time from many people and continue to be obsessive with the same crap you keep reproducing in your posts that have already been refuted.  You need to shup up and start listening to what people tell you.  Grow up and shut up for once in your life.  You may have read a lot, but you're still immature and ignorant.
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If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #88 on: July 03, 2017, 11:52:40 AM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
I dont. I confess that Perhaps it is better in that language. But at the same time almost everyone says God's Word is infallible, that it is all inspired etc. Of Course the writers were inspired. Infallible? Hardly. If so, then lsnguage wouldnt matter because God would make sure all translations were perfect. Or no? One must know koine greek and hebrew? Then perhaps the pope (even though he spoke and read latin) had a point when he forbade common man to read the scriptures.

You know what you call a person who insults someone or something he doesn't understand or know?
But what does one call someone like that?

Immature among other things
Hey. It is the bible and its followers who claim to be in possesion of the truth. In that book, hell is mentioned qute often. So is predestination, election etc. Is it different in koine greek? If I can't comment on a book that claims to be the truth because I dont know koine greek, especially when wrong understanding of that book and any disobedience to it(where is the line drawn between fatal disobedience and non-fatal? Is it fatal to dislike almost half of the books, among them the Book of revelation?)has the most fatal consequences ever imagined, then boy are we all in trouble.

No! We already answered those questions for you. You are too stubborn to accept them and you prefer your own reading of things.  You refuse to take good advise from time to time from many people and continue to be obsessive with the same crap you keep reproducing in your posts that have already been refuted.  You need to shut up and start listening to what people tell you.  Grow up and shut up for once in your life.  You may have read a lot, but you're still immature and ignorant.
Okay okay I will shut up. But please tell me one last thing; what is meant with foreknowledge, predestination and election? If you combine that with an omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent God I unfortunately find it IMPOSSIBLE to understand that it can mean anything else than that God knows my destiny but decides to for some reason create me anyway. Honestly, to not call it double predestination is sort of dishonest if you take the meaning of all those terms mentioned to its actual meaning and combine them... So please. Tell me WHERE my thinking is wrong. What is false? In what sense is it false that God predestines, elects and foreknows as an omniscient and omnipotent being, when scripture clearly seems to suggest it? I once read an official orthodox refutation of calvinism, a council in Jerusalem. There they condemned calvinism for saying that God decrees and actively decides to damn the lost, when in reality according to them, he foreknew they were going to misuse their free will and be damned, and therefore he predestined them to hell. Honestly, to me that is the same thing. So what is it that is wrong with my thinking? Is what was stated in the that council in Jerusalem orthodox teaching?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 11:56:08 AM by beebert »
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #89 on: July 03, 2017, 12:01:06 PM »
It is a state of His eternity.  He foreknows, just as He is extra-powerful.  In other words, His knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend or describe, just as His power is likewise.  In short, His being is just being described.  But we don't presume to know what He knows because we can't.  For that we have another term: providence.  We trust His Providence, and we trust His love towards us.  That's it.

What happens in the end where someone goes or how someone judges, we don't know, and we don't presume to know God's foreknowledge of these events.  We don't even know what "foreknowledge" really is.  But we honor Him for that.

So: don't presume you think you know what He knows.  Just do your part in your own salvation and those around you. That's the whole idea behind "foreknowledge".  For you to obsess to try to understand what that means makes you want to be equal to God, which is impossible and will drive you insane.

If you try to twist your own logic into "Calvinism" vs "semi-Calvinism", you're doing yourself a disfavor.  Many of us have learned to shut up before the glory of Christ.  You can do the same.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 12:02:49 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.