Author Topic: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?  (Read 2259 times)

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Offline beebert

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A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« on: June 28, 2017, 07:29:49 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibUI71c84tg

A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
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Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2017, 08:14:18 PM »
Did you miss the party?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71230.0.html
No no... I was listening to this "preaching" by the hateful MacArthur, and wondered not about Hank but about MacArthur. He was the one I asked about whether you could sense a touch of God, love and truth in his words. I can't. It is like a devil incarnated to me.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 08:18:53 PM by beebert »
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2017, 08:36:36 AM »
Did you miss the party?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71230.0.html
No no... I was listening to this "preaching" by the hateful MacArthur, and wondered not about Hank but about MacArthur. He was the one I asked about whether you could sense a touch of God, love and truth in his words. I can't. It is like a devil incarnated to me.

Ah, I see. I didn't bother to listen, to be honest. I had a look at the title, thought 'Well, that's 8 minutes of vitriol I'll never get back' and noped right out of there.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2017, 09:50:54 AM »
You're on OrthodoxChristianity.net, not CalvinistAngrySkyDad.net.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
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Offline eddybear

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2017, 07:23:27 PM »
Did you miss the party?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71230.0.html
No no... I was listening to this "preaching" by the hateful MacArthur, and wondered not about Hank but about MacArthur. He was the one I asked about whether you could sense a touch of God, love and truth in his words. I can't. It is like a devil incarnated to me.

Ah, I see. I didn't bother to listen, to be honest. I had a look at the title, thought 'Well, that's 8 minutes of vitriol I'll never get back' and noped right out of there.

Me too.

 Beebert, why are you listening to this stuff? It won't do you any good. Leave the haters to their hatred, and spend your time listening to those who do speak with the love of Christ.

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2017, 07:39:38 PM »
Did you miss the party?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71230.0.html
No no... I was listening to this "preaching" by the hateful MacArthur, and wondered not about Hank but about MacArthur. He was the one I asked about whether you could sense a touch of God, love and truth in his words. I can't. It is like a devil incarnated to me.

Ah, I see. I didn't bother to listen, to be honest. I had a look at the title, thought 'Well, that's 8 minutes of vitriol I'll never get back' and noped right out of there.

Me too.

 Beebert, why are you listening to this stuff? It won't do you any good. Leave the haters to their hatred, and spend your time listening to those who do speak with the love of Christ.
How am I to avoid believing that christianity is a religion of hate already from its start, when all these hating people do (or Perhaps I am so deluded I cant see that they love, but if so, I am forever lost, because I can Only sense an intense lust for revenge, power and hatred in the preaching of these men) is to quote from scripture? And then when you actually read scripture, you simply can't see anything else than this lust for revenge. When reading Paul, it is like seing an image of Calvin's followers who preach God's disgust towards mankind. For God so loved the world... They made it to "For God so hated all except his elect few, that he chose to love in order to satisfy his own vanity ". Macarthur has made me almost want to burn my new testament. I know Christ demands me to forgive. But this man has raped my soul and almost destroyed my whole sense of love and sanity. I was once heard a pastor say that depression and low-self esteem is pure egoism and sin. “It’s putting yourself ahead of God,” he said. “The only psychotherapy anyone needs is the Bible.” Encouraging...
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 07:45:18 PM by beebert »
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Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2017, 07:50:36 PM »
"The sight of the torments of the damned in hell will increase the ecstasy of the saints forever!", is that the attitude of Christ and Christians? That is hate. Now I ask instead: How is an eternal paradise even POSSIBLE if there is a hell fire of eternal suffering next to it? I insist that It is impossible for a man who hasnt got a heart of stone. I rather choose to Believe that the Only ones who will be in hell are those who think it will be possible to enjoy heaven next to an eternal torture chamber.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 07:51:31 PM by beebert »
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2017, 07:52:33 PM »
Satan quoted Scripture, too (and to God's face).  Do you think Scripture is Satanic because of who quoted it?  Why blame the Scripture or the Faith because some twist it?  Why not blame the one who twists instead? 

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2017, 07:57:45 PM »
Satan quoted Scripture, too (and to God's face).  Do you think Scripture is Satanic because of who quoted it?  Why blame the Scripture or the Faith because some twist it?  Why not blame the one who twists instead?
That is what I did. I didnt blame scripture. I blamed MacArthur for making it impossible for me to read the bible as the orthodox seems to read it. It is ingrained. I cant seem to get away with it. It is as if my brain, my nervous system, all my body and soul, tells me urgently that I am in a life-threatening situation everytime I read Paul's epistles for example.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 07:58:18 PM by beebert »
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Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2017, 08:08:10 PM »
BTW can man injure God? If not , then I say that you cannot commit a sin against an infinite being. I can only sin against my brother or my neighbor, because I can injure them. There can be no sin where there is no injury. And if Jesus died to make atonement, to make God accept my existence (shouldnt the fact that he created me be an acceptance?), to pay a debt to God himself who CREATED me, pay a debt for something I havent asked for, then I am not really forgiven now, am I? I am only accepted for existing because of another man's blood. Now this MUST be a distortion of the gospel(yet that is all I seem to find these days about the atonement in Paul's epistles), and an almost unforgivable one at that.
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Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2017, 08:12:08 PM »
Charles Spurgeon said that everywhere in hell will be written the words “for ever.” They will be branded on every wave of flame, they will be forged in every link of every chain, they will be seen in every lurid flash of brimstone — everywhere will be those words “for ever.” Everybody will be yelling and screaming them. Just think of that picture of the mercy and justice of the eternal Father of us all. If these words are necessary why are they not written now everywhere in the world, on every tree, and every field, and on every blade of grass? I say I am entitled to have it so. I say that it is God’s duty to furnish me with the evidence.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2017, 08:16:37 PM »
BTW can man injure God? If not , then I say that you cannot commit a sin against an infinite being. I can only sin against my brother or my neighbor, because I can injure them. There can be no sin where there is no injury. And if Jesus died to make atonement, to make God accept my existence (shouldnt the fact that he created me be an acceptance?), to pay a debt to God himself who CREATED me, pay a debt for something I havent asked for, then I am not really forgiven now, am I? I am only accepted for existing because of another man's blood. Now this MUST be a distortion of the gospel(yet that is all I seem to find these days about the atonement in Paul's epistles), and an almost unforgivable one at that.

Men did injure God, to death. This is the incarnation -- that God can be man, and in man. If you injure your neighbors -- sin against them, as you put it -- then you injure God -- sin against him. "Inasmuch as you have done it to the least of these ... Ye have done it into me."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2017, 08:18:26 PM »
Another pastor preached a sermon, in which he said that the damned will grow worse; and the same man said that the devil was the first Universalist. Then I am on the side of the devil. At least compared to him. His devil is a saint compared to the God he paints a picture of in his pathetic imagination
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2017, 08:19:54 PM »
BTW can man injure God? If not , then I say that you cannot commit a sin against an infinite being. I can only sin against my brother or my neighbor, because I can injure them. There can be no sin where there is no injury. And if Jesus died to make atonement, to make God accept my existence (shouldnt the fact that he created me be an acceptance?), to pay a debt to God himself who CREATED me, pay a debt for something I havent asked for, then I am not really forgiven now, am I? I am only accepted for existing because of another man's blood. Now this MUST be a distortion of the gospel(yet that is all I seem to find these days about the atonement in Paul's epistles), and an almost unforgivable one at that.

Men did injure God, to death. This is the incarnation -- that God can be man, and in man. If you injure your neighbors -- sin against them, as you put it -- then you injure God -- sin against him. "Inasmuch as you have done it to the least of these ... Ye have done it into me."
Okay good then that is Fair. You are right. But what about the rest I said?
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Offline William T

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2017, 08:27:35 PM »
Few, if any Orthodox have a high opinion of Calvinism.  I don't understand why you keep harping on this.  Do you want to learn about Orthodoxy, or unleash your Calvinist hang ups, and demand that people measure up to your idea of love and moral platitudes?


Axioms:

1) Everybody is "for love", including in their own weird understanding of it: ISIS
2) Everybody and their brother see themselves as good and moral, this seems to be true especially in this day and age   It's almost a neo-Puritanical age (heavens to betsy I miss the 90's and early 00's).  You have to work on restraining and keeping within it's proper confines your point of view, especially if you are interested in learning about other things.  Honestly, do you think it is at all possible the moral heavy handedness you are preaching in your posts about "love" may very well be a Calvinist hangover?

If you are interested in Systemic Comparison between Orthodoxy and Calvinism, wish to look into Orthodoxy, and so forth  this forum can be a good secondary tool to help get thoughts straight and ask more concise questions.  But this forum at best can only be a secondary source, and a springboard for other things.  For all your questions and arguments your going to have to invest in something a bit more concrete otherwise this forum will be just a waste of time for you and others spending their time trying to engage with you.  Noticing a few of your past posts, I do think you are going to have to change your philosophy when approaching this forum.  I think if you do that, you'll be able to learn and engage more.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 08:30:09 PM by William T »

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2017, 08:48:39 PM »
Few, if any Orthodox have a high opinion of Calvinism.  I don't understand why you keep harping on this.  Do you want to learn about Orthodoxy, or unleash your Calvinist hang ups, and demand that people measure up to your idea of love and moral platitudes?


Axioms:

1) Everybody is "for love", including in their own weird understanding of it: ISIS
2) Everybody and their brother see themselves as good and moral, this seems to be true especially in this day and age   It's almost a neo-Puritanical age (heavens to betsy I miss the 90's and early 00's).  You have to work on restraining and keeping within it's proper confines your point of view, especially if you are interested in learning about other things.  Honestly, do you think it is at all possible the moral heavy handedness you are preaching in your posts about "love" may very well be a Calvinist hangover?

If you are interested in Systemic Comparison between Orthodoxy and Calvinism, wish to look into Orthodoxy, and so forth  this forum can be a good secondary tool to help get thoughts straight and ask more concise questions.  But this forum at best can only be a secondary source, and a springboard for other things.  For all your questions and arguments your going to have to invest in something a bit more concrete otherwise this forum will be just a waste of time for you and others spending their time trying to engage with you.  Noticing a few of your past posts, I do think you are going to have to change your philosophy when approaching this forum.  I think if you do that, you'll be able to learn and engage more.
Okay you are right... I apologize. Of course. From an orthodox perspective then, what is the view of these passages?


Does orthodox teach a man to resist oppression? Does it teach a man to tear from the throne of tyranny the crowned thing and robber called a king?

“Let every soul be subject to the higher powers: For there is no power but of God, the powers that are ordained of God.” (Rom. xii, 1.)
All the kings, and princes, and governors, and thieves and robbers that happened to be in authority were placed there by the infinite father of all!
“Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God.”
When George Washington resisted the power of George the Third did he the power of God? And those who resisted Hitler resisted God? “Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God,” is that to falsify the bible itself?
“For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain; for he is the minister of God, revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
“Wherefore ye must needs be subject not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.” (Rom. xiii, 4, 5.)

And all those murders in the old testament? How are they viewed? The slaughters of women and Children I mean. And how about the law? Did Christ really want People to Stone Children who disobeyed their parents and raped women to be forced to marry their rapists? What is and orthodox interpretation if these?

And what is the orthodox interpretation on the relation between God 's foreknowledge on the one hand, and predestination and election on the other?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 08:50:00 PM by beebert »
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Offline William T

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2017, 09:19:07 PM »
That's a lot of questions.  I don't know how you could expect someone on a medium like a forum to answer all that, especially with "the Orthodox view".  Everything you are asking requires a lot of unpacking.  Can't you see that?  You are asking for an entire worldview and then taking apart scriptures and asking for precise points....that's a hard task.  I highly doubt a forum can handle these requests.  I think your going to have to hone your questions a bit.

another thought,

Choose your own adventure:

a) You are self satisfied with your current position, and are just seeing what does and what does not meet those standards.  Orthodoxy will never meet those standards.  Honestly you are wasting your time here if that is the case.

or

b)  You are going to have to subject yourself to long hours of disciplined study...and if you really want to go the extra mile, attending the liturgy, Bible Study, and so forth. 

If this is the case let me use an illustration between a good student and a bad student that usually happens in something like a philosophy or religion 101 class:

a) Good student:  sits down, takes notes, listens more than speaks, works with the Prof and tutors after hours if they need help or wish to enrich their learning experience, takes initiative on  assigned projects and extra curricular activities

b) bad student:  raises hand every five minutes to challenge philosophy, hold discussions, talk about feelings, wanting to have "deep conversations"....usually drops out by the time he can get a full refund for his course after wasting most of the other peoples time.

If you are going to attend Liturgy, Bible Study, read Church Fathers / books on Orthodoxy etc you are going to have to put your sentiments aside if you wish to take it seriously.  This is true with anything.  No one would study Engineering or Medicine with such a facetious attitude.  For some reason when it comes to Religion, Philosophy, and the Arts everyone is an expert.

Offline William T

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2017, 09:36:55 PM »
Search the name Bishop Robert Barron.  He's Catholic, but he's overall pretty good with showing a more classic Christian world view to the uninitiated.  He probably responds to many of the questions you ask

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2017, 09:40:59 PM »
Search the name Bishop Robert Barron.  He's Catholic, but he's overall pretty good with showing a more classic Christian world view to the uninitiated.  He probably responds to many of the questions you ask
Thanks I will...

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Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2017, 09:48:54 PM »
That's a lot of questions.  I don't know how you could expect someone on a medium like a forum to answer all that, especially with "the Orthodox view".  Everything you are asking requires a lot of unpacking.  Can't you see that?  You are asking for an entire worldview and then taking apart scriptures and asking for precise points....that's a hard task.  I highly doubt a forum can handle these requests.  I think your going to have to hone your questions a bit.

another thought,

Choose your own adventure:

a) You are self satisfied with your current position, and are just seeing what does and what does not meet those standards.  Orthodoxy will never meet those standards.  Honestly you are wasting your time here if that is the case.

or

b)  You are going to have to subject yourself to long hours of disciplined study...and if you really want to go the extra mile, attending the liturgy, Bible Study, and so forth. 

If this is the case let me use an illustration between a good student and a bad student that usually happens in something like a philosophy or religion 101 class:

a) Good student:  sits down, takes notes, listens more than speaks, works with the Prof and tutors after hours if they need help or wish to enrich their learning experience, takes initiative on  assigned projects and extra curricular activities

b) bad student:  raises hand every five minutes to challenge philosophy, hold discussions, talk about feelings, wanting to have "deep conversations"....usually drops out by the time he can get a full refund for his course after wasting most of the other peoples time.

If you are going to attend Liturgy, Bible Study, read Church Fathers / books on Orthodoxy etc you are going to have to put your sentiments aside if you wish to take it seriously.  This is true with anything.  No one would study Engineering or Medicine with such a facetious attitude.  For some reason when it comes to Religion, Philosophy, and the Arts everyone is an expert.
I guess you are right... Though I have researched orthodoxy and the common view on hell among the fathers too and this is what I have found for example :
It is a sea of fire—not a sea of the kind or dimensions we know here, but much larger and fiercer, with waves made of fire, fire of a strange and fearsome kind. There is a great abyss there, in fact, of terrible flames, and one can see fire rushing about on all sides like some wild animal. … There will be no one who can resist, no one who can escape: Christ’s gentle, peaceful face will be nowhere to be seen. But as those sentenced to work the mines are give over to rough men and see no more of their families, but only their taskmasters, so it will be there—or not simply so, but much worse. For here on can appeal to the Emperor for clemency, and have the prisoner released—but there, never. They will not be released, but will remain roasting and in such agony as cannot be expressed. (Homilies on Matthew 43[44].4)
And again:

For when you hear of fire, do not suppose the fire in that world to be like this: for fire in this world burns up and makes away with anything which it takes hold of; but that fire is continually burning those who have once been seized by it, and never ceases: therefore also is it called unquenchable. For those also who have sinned must put on immortality, not for honour, but to have a constant supply of material for that punishment to work upon; and how terrible this is, speech could never depict, but from the experience of little things it is possible to form some slight notion of these great ones. For if you should ever be in a bath which has been heated more than it ought to be, think then, I pray you, on the fire of hell: or again if you are ever inflamed by some severe fever transfer your thoughts to that flame, and then you will be able clearly to discern the difference. For if a bath and a fever so afflict and distress us, what will our condition be when we have fallen into that river of fire which winds in front of the terrible judgment-seat. Then we shall gnash our teeth under the suffering of our labours and intolerable pains: but there will be no one to succour us: yea we shall groan mightily, as the flame is applied more severely to us, but we shall see no one save those who are being punished with us, and great desolation. And how should any one describe the terrors arising to our souls from the darkness? For just as that fire has no consuming power so neither has it any power of giving light: for otherwise there would not be darkness. The dismay produced in us then by this, and the trembling and the great astonishment can be sufficiently realized in that day only. For in that world many and various kinds of torment and torrents of punishment are poured in upon the soul from every side. And if any one should ask, and how can the soul bear up against such a multitude of punishments and continue being chastised through interminable ages, let him consider what happens in this world, how many have often borne up against a long and severe disease. And if they have died, this has happened not because the soul was consumed but because the body was exhausted, so that had the latter not broken down, the soul would not have ceased being tormented. When then we have received an incorruptible and inconsumable body there is nothing to prevent the punishment being indefinitely extended. For here indeed it is impossible that the two things should coexist. I mean severity of punishment and permanence of being, but the one contends with the other, because the nature of the body is perishable and cannot bear the concurrence of both: but when the imperishable state has supervened, there would be an end of this strife, and both these terrible things will keep their hold upon us for infinite time with much force. Let us not then so dispose ourselves now as if the excessive power of the tortures were destructive of the soul: for even the body will not be able to experience this at that time, but will abide together with the soul, in a state of eternal punishment, and there will not be any end to look to beyond this. How much luxury then, and how much time will you weigh in the balance against this punishment and vengeance? Do you propose a period of a hundred years or twice as long? And what is this compared with the endless ages? For what the dream of a single day is in the midst of a whole lifetime, that the enjoyment of things here is as contrasted with the state of things to come. Is there then any one who, for the sake of seeing a good dream, would elect to be perpetually punished? Who is so senseless as to have recourse to this kind of retribution? (Ad Theod. 1.10)

If that is orthodox preaching (which I cant sense at all when I am at liturgies) then I reject it with all my heart and turn to Buddha instead who reached levels of insight far beyond the barbarian who wrote the things above IMO. Christianity seems so schizophrenic to me and it is hard for me to keep my sanity if I am to Believe the above. I cant accept not knowing what hell is like. It must be revealed. For the doctrine  has destroyed and keeps destroying lives. Some orthodox say "hell is heaven experienced differently", but that is a later view, not to be found neither in the bible nor the Church fathers.
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2017, 10:12:39 PM »
And when you get to the Buddhists, what are you going to threaten them with? What universe is there that can be made over into your image?

Of course the quotations above from Romans, or from the Fathers are "Orthodox preaching," by definition. Whatever spin you are trying to put on them by singling them out is, by definition, not.

I'm sorry you're intelligent and lonely. I hope your exercises here have brought you some pastime and relief. I hope interacting with other humans even on a forum and sensing our fellow human weakness has given you some sensation of companionship. If you're going to get implacable and imperious with it all, however, then you need to recover some sense of proportion.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline William T

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2017, 10:34:44 PM »
I think you are answering your own concerns then, which at this point seem rhetorical.  If you are all about Tolstoyism, Paul Tillich, Hegel, Nietzsche, some (probably westernized) form of Buddhism, and so forth I don't know what you expect .  I don't know how you can think Orthodoxy is just an affirmation of millennial spiritualism and moral sentiments.  That's obviously two different things.  I think you may be predestined for liberal Protestantism.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 10:36:13 PM by William T »

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2017, 10:53:16 PM »
And when you get to the Buddhists, what are you going to threaten them with? What universe is there that can be made over into your image?

Of course the quotations above from Romans, or from the Fathers are "Orthodox preaching," by definition. Whatever spin you are trying to put on them by singling them out is, by definition, not.

I'm sorry you're intelligent and lonely. I hope your exercises here have brought you some pastime and relief. I hope interacting with other humans even on a forum and sensing our fellow human weakness has given you some sensation of companionship. If you're going to get implacable and imperious with it all, however, then you need to recover some sense of proportion.
A minority report does exist, of course, of hopeful and compassionate fathers represented by Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, Isaac of Nineveh... Those are the only ones whose eschatology I have read without feeling nausea (Though I have not yet read Maximos Confessor). So the orthodox view is the one quoted there? It was John Chrysostom. If so, then I choose to join Nietzsche and rebel against christianity till God either in a miraculous way changes my heart and makes me see things clear, or sends me to hell. Nietzsche BTW, a genius not to be found in christianity unless you count the half-Christian half-atheist Dostoevsky(and Bach of course). Dostoevsky though, who does not accept the traditional answers to the theodicy-problem, and therefore also rejects a large part of the views of the fathers  (among them, John Chrysostom, Augustine, Basil the Great etc). If Dostoevsky would take part with anyone, it would be Isaac the Syrian. Also, I cant at all make sense of the idea that Starets Silouan and John Chrysostom worship the same God. One of them rejoices Over the idea of a sea of fire where the torments are so great they can not be imagined (did he believe it to be situated under the earth or was it just all in his imagination, where he finally, dressed in white clothes after having been cleansed by the blood of the lamb, had the possibility to be a bit sadistic for a moment?), the other one can not even imagine and stand the idea that divine love would bear that one soul is forever lost, and actually even goes on to hint that those who WOULD think like Chrysostom above, has no Place in paradise. I side with Silouan, but I simply cant find that God in scripture, in the tradition (except in Isaac the Syrian basically and perhaps a few more), or in prayers. And as Sophrony said when he saw Michelangelo's painting of the last judgment: "That is not the Christ I know". But it seems to have been the Christ that Paul, the John who wrote revelation (who is not the John of the epistles), Peter, Ignatius of Antioch, Hermas the sheperd, Tertullian, Basil the Great, John Chrysostom and Augustine knew.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 11:00:14 PM by beebert »
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2017, 10:53:46 PM »
I think you are answering your own concerns then, which at this point seem rhetorical.  If you are all about Tolstoyism, Paul Tillich, Hegel, Nietzsche, some (probably westernized) form of Buddhism, and so forth I don't know what you expect .  I don't know how you can think Orthodoxy is just an affirmation of millennial spiritualism and moral sentiments.  That's obviously two different things.  I think you may be predestined for liberal Protestantism.
Hegel is worthless and liberal protestantism is wishful thinking. I rather be Cold than lukewarm. I am for Dostoevsky, Nietzsche and Blake. And to a certain extent Berdyaev, Tolstoy, Kierkegaard...
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 10:58:23 PM by beebert »
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2017, 11:07:27 PM »
And I am of course for Seraphim of Sarov, Starets Silouan, Francis of Assisi and Isaac the Syrian.
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2017, 11:15:12 PM »
Pardon me, but how are you going to choose sides between saints who were completely at peace with one another and recognized by the same Church? You're raving.
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2017, 11:21:35 PM »
Pardon me, but how are you going to choose sides between saints who were completely at peace with one another and recognized by the same Church? You're raving.
I Think I gave the answer here;

A minority report does exist, of course, of hopeful and compassionate fathers represented by Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, Isaac of Nineveh... Those are the only ones whose eschatology I have read without feeling nausea (Though I have not yet read Maximos Confessor). So the orthodox view is the one quoted there? It was John Chrysostom. If so, then I choose to join Nietzsche and rebel against christianity till God either in a miraculous way changes my heart and makes me see things clear, or sends me to hell. Nietzsche BTW, a genius not to be found in christianity unless you count the half-Christian half-atheist Dostoevsky(and Bach of course). Dostoevsky though, who does not accept the traditional answers to the theodicy-problem, and therefore also rejects a large part of the views of the fathers  (among them, John Chrysostom, Augustine, Basil the Great etc). If Dostoevsky would take part with anyone, it would be Isaac the Syrian. Also, I cant at all make sense of the idea that Starets Silouan and John Chrysostom worship the same God. One of them rejoices Over the idea of a sea of fire where the torments are so great they can not be imagined (did he believe it to be situated under the earth or was it just all in his imagination, where he finally, dressed in white clothes after having been cleansed by the blood of the lamb, had the possibility to be a bit sadistic for a moment?), the other one can not even imagine and stand the idea that divine love would bear that one soul is forever lost, and actually even goes on to hint that those who WOULD think like Chrysostom above, has no Place in paradise. I side with Silouan, but I simply cant find that God in scripture, in the tradition (except in Isaac the Syrian basically and perhaps a few more), or in prayers. And as Sophrony said when he saw Michelangelo's painting of the last judgment: "That is not the Christ I know". But it seems to have been the Christ that Paul, the John who wrote revelation (who is not the John of the epistles), Peter, Ignatius of Antioch, Hermas the sheperd, Tertullian, Basil the Great, John Chrysostom and Augustine knew.
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2017, 11:54:38 PM »
Pardon me, but how are you going to choose sides between saints who were completely at peace with one another and recognized by the same Church? You're raving.
I Think I gave the answer here;

A minority report does exist, of course, of hopeful and compassionate fathers represented by Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, Isaac of Nineveh... Those are the only ones whose eschatology I have read without feeling nausea (Though I have not yet read Maximos Confessor). So the orthodox view is the one quoted there? It was John Chrysostom. If so, then I choose to join Nietzsche and rebel against christianity till God either in a miraculous way changes my heart and makes me see things clear, or sends me to hell. Nietzsche BTW, a genius not to be found in christianity unless you count the half-Christian half-atheist Dostoevsky(and Bach of course). Dostoevsky though, who does not accept the traditional answers to the theodicy-problem, and therefore also rejects a large part of the views of the fathers  (among them, John Chrysostom, Augustine, Basil the Great etc). If Dostoevsky would take part with anyone, it would be Isaac the Syrian. Also, I cant at all make sense of the idea that Starets Silouan and John Chrysostom worship the same God. One of them rejoices Over the idea of a sea of fire where the torments are so great they can not be imagined (did he believe it to be situated under the earth or was it just all in his imagination, where he finally, dressed in white clothes after having been cleansed by the blood of the lamb, had the possibility to be a bit sadistic for a moment?), the other one can not even imagine and stand the idea that divine love would bear that one soul is forever lost, and actually even goes on to hint that those who WOULD think like Chrysostom above, has no Place in paradise. I side with Silouan, but I simply cant find that God in scripture, in the tradition (except in Isaac the Syrian basically and perhaps a few more), or in prayers. And as Sophrony said when he saw Michelangelo's painting of the last judgment: "That is not the Christ I know". But it seems to have been the Christ that Paul, the John who wrote revelation (who is not the John of the epistles), Peter, Ignatius of Antioch, Hermas the sheperd, Tertullian, Basil the Great, John Chrysostom and Augustine knew.

Yeah. And there is no war between St. Silouan and St. John. They're agreed. Their sainthoods are discerned by the same Church. This is all your fancy.

Oh, and I see you've gone back to your original mode of saying you read, read, read the Scriptures and can't, for all your drudging efforts, find anything good. Well, assuming by Scriptures you don't mean Russian fiction, German essays, and Italian poetry, you've demonstrated very, very little facility with Scripture on this forum. In fact, you've shown chasms of ignorance that rival someone's who was raised in a completely different tradition. Maybe my expectations are too high, yet after all you claim that it is the profound knowledge of the Scriptures that has yielded you nothing but bitterness, so I think I'm just holding you to your word.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2017, 06:33:37 AM »
Pardon me, but how are you going to choose sides between saints who were completely at peace with one another and recognized by the same Church? You're raving.
I Think I gave the answer here;

A minority report does exist, of course, of hopeful and compassionate fathers represented by Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, Isaac of Nineveh... Those are the only ones whose eschatology I have read without feeling nausea (Though I have not yet read Maximos Confessor). So the orthodox view is the one quoted there? It was John Chrysostom. If so, then I choose to join Nietzsche and rebel against christianity till God either in a miraculous way changes my heart and makes me see things clear, or sends me to hell. Nietzsche BTW, a genius not to be found in christianity unless you count the half-Christian half-atheist Dostoevsky(and Bach of course). Dostoevsky though, who does not accept the traditional answers to the theodicy-problem, and therefore also rejects a large part of the views of the fathers  (among them, John Chrysostom, Augustine, Basil the Great etc). If Dostoevsky would take part with anyone, it would be Isaac the Syrian. Also, I cant at all make sense of the idea that Starets Silouan and John Chrysostom worship the same God. One of them rejoices Over the idea of a sea of fire where the torments are so great they can not be imagined (did he believe it to be situated under the earth or was it just all in his imagination, where he finally, dressed in white clothes after having been cleansed by the blood of the lamb, had the possibility to be a bit sadistic for a moment?), the other one can not even imagine and stand the idea that divine love would bear that one soul is forever lost, and actually even goes on to hint that those who WOULD think like Chrysostom above, has no Place in paradise. I side with Silouan, but I simply cant find that God in scripture, in the tradition (except in Isaac the Syrian basically and perhaps a few more), or in prayers. And as Sophrony said when he saw Michelangelo's painting of the last judgment: "That is not the Christ I know". But it seems to have been the Christ that Paul, the John who wrote revelation (who is not the John of the epistles), Peter, Ignatius of Antioch, Hermas the sheperd, Tertullian, Basil the Great, John Chrysostom and Augustine knew.

Yeah. And there is no war between St. Silouan and St. John. They're agreed. Their sainthoods are discerned by the same Church. This is all your fancy.

Oh, and I see you've gone back to your original mode of saying you read, read, read the Scriptures and can't, for all your drudging efforts, find anything good. Well, assuming by Scriptures you don't mean Russian fiction, German essays, and Italian poetry, you've demonstrated very, very little facility with Scripture on this forum. In fact, you've shown chasms of ignorance that rival someone's who was raised in a completely different tradition. Maybe my expectations are too high, yet after all you claim that it is the profound knowledge of the Scriptures that has yielded you nothing but bitterness, so I think I'm just holding you to your word.
If by John you mean John Chrysostom, then I respectfully disagree. Silouan was all in for Cosmic unity, and almost prayed even for fishes and trees. John Chrysostom was all in for divine vengeance(which is not found in any way in Silouan) and proclaimed the eternal destruction for the many without any hope for them whatsoever. So, even if they joined the same.Church and Faith in one sense, they were Worlds apart in their Most basic attitude towards the creation and man. Of Course Silouan would never protest against John Chrysostom and the others. It was not in his nature.

And now Dostoevsky: He was not primarly focused on personal salvation (from eternal punishment). No,  the highest aim of Dostoevsky’s Christianity is not personal salvation but the fusion of the individual ego with the community in a symbiosis of love; the only true sin that Dostoevsky appears to recognize is the failure to fulfill this law of love. In the end, Dostoevsky obviously agreed with Blake that "Everything that exists is holy".
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 06:37:22 AM by beebert »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2017, 11:03:28 AM »
Did you miss the party?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71230.0.html
No no... I was listening to this "preaching" by the hateful MacArthur, and wondered not about Hank but about MacArthur. He was the one I asked about whether you could sense a touch of God, love and truth in his words. I can't. It is like a devil incarnated to me.

Beebert,

You know I would expect perhaps someone else being shocked by how hateful some of his arguments are.  But coming from you, it's a different story.  You have a problem.  You seem to look for things that you can pinpoint to hate.  You want to have objects of hatred, to fixate on how evil they sound or are.

I want you to challenge yourself and find something nice about him.  I don't ever want to hear again any criticism from you on other people.  You have a problem, so you need take extreme measures in your life.  I don't care if he speaks terrible about us.  And you shouldn't either.  Christ is much bigger than this.  The Church has handled worse.

So find something nice to say from now on.  And stop it with your fixation on how bad certain people or theologies are.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 11:03:52 AM by minasoliman »
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Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2017, 11:20:37 AM »
Did you miss the party?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71230.0.html
No no... I was listening to this "preaching" by the hateful MacArthur, and wondered not about Hank but about MacArthur. He was the one I asked about whether you could sense a touch of God, love and truth in his words. I can't. It is like a devil incarnated to me.

Beebert,

You know I would expect perhaps someone else being shocked by how hateful some of his arguments are.  But coming from you, it's a different story.  You have a problem.  You seem to look for things that you can pinpoint to hate.  You want to have objects of hatred, to fixate on how evil they sound or are.

I want you to challenge yourself and find something nice about him.  I don't ever want to hear again any criticism from you on other people.  You have a problem, so you need take extreme measures in your life.  I don't care if he speaks terrible about us.  And you shouldn't either.  Christ is much bigger than this.  The Church has handled worse.

So find something nice to say from now on.  And stop it with your fixation on how bad certain people or theologies are.
You are probably absolutely Correct. But this far in my rather big research in christianity, many Church fathers and those afterwards, I find that tendency overwhelmingly great within christianity itself; namely to make the whole human race in its natural born state (even new born children. Well, isnt life itself evil? Then of course sex is sinful) into objects of hatred,. The objects need to take extreme measures in their lives, otherwise God Will torture them forever and ever in and everlasting fire of wrath and vengeance. But untill that day, let us "love" each other, even the objects of wrath for which nothing but endless torture awaits, until that blessed day of eternal revenge comes! That is what makes me want to puke. Now those are my last words of "hatred". I will from now try to to be "nice".

Except one more thing: This world can not be justified by moral means. God can not IMO justify his creation morally when a little child starves or get tortured to death. Only by aesthetic means can the world be justified; God as an artist. There, in aesthetic contemplation, is true love. Life as beauty. Life as a work of art. Not as a Court of law.
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2017, 11:31:33 AM »
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2017, 11:45:08 AM »
Of Course Silouan would never protest against John Chrysostom and the others. It was not in his nature.

"Silouan was a nice guy, so he would never have publicly called out Chrysostom for being such a hateful wretch."
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2017, 12:18:34 PM »
Satan quoted Scripture, too (and to God's face).  Do you think Scripture is Satanic because of who quoted it?  Why blame the Scripture or the Faith because some twist it?  Why not blame the one who twists instead?
That is what I did. I didnt blame scripture. I blamed MacArthur for making it impossible for me to read the bible as the orthodox seems to read it. It is ingrained. I cant seem to get away with it. It is as if my brain, my nervous system, all my body and soul, tells me urgently that I am in a life-threatening situation everytime I read Paul's epistles for example.

If you're afraid that you've been programmed to read the Scriptures in a way that's neither orthodox nor Orthodox, then stop reading them for a while and read the Fathers instead, and allow them to re-program you.  Once that's done (understanding their approach to life, Christ, the scriptures, the faith, etc.), then re-introduce yourself to the Scriptures.  This is a multi-year process.

Please: read responsibly.
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Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2017, 12:50:10 PM »
Satan quoted Scripture, too (and to God's face).  Do you think Scripture is Satanic because of who quoted it?  Why blame the Scripture or the Faith because some twist it?  Why not blame the one who twists instead?
That is what I did. I didnt blame scripture. I blamed MacArthur for making it impossible for me to read the bible as the orthodox seems to read it. It is ingrained. I cant seem to get away with it. It is as if my brain, my nervous system, all my body and soul, tells me urgently that I am in a life-threatening situation everytime I read Paul's epistles for example.

If you're afraid that you've been programmed to read the Scriptures in a way that's neither orthodox nor Orthodox, then stop reading them for a while and read the Fathers instead, and allow them to re-program you.  Once that's done (understanding their approach to life, Christ, the scriptures, the faith, etc.), then re-introduce yourself to the Scriptures.  This is a multi-year process.

Please: read responsibly.
Thanks for the tips... So which fathers should I spend most time on?
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2017, 01:47:24 PM »
Did you miss the party?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71230.0.html
No no... I was listening to this "preaching" by the hateful MacArthur, and wondered not about Hank but about MacArthur. He was the one I asked about whether you could sense a touch of God, love and truth in his words. I can't. It is like a devil incarnated to me.

Beebert,

You know I would expect perhaps someone else being shocked by how hateful some of his arguments are.  But coming from you, it's a different story.  You have a problem.  You seem to look for things that you can pinpoint to hate.  You want to have objects of hatred, to fixate on how evil they sound or are.

I want you to challenge yourself and find something nice about him.  I don't ever want to hear again any criticism from you on other people.  You have a problem, so you need take extreme measures in your life.  I don't care if he speaks terrible about us.  And you shouldn't either.  Christ is much bigger than this.  The Church has handled worse.

So find something nice to say from now on.  And stop it with your fixation on how bad certain people or theologies are.
You are probably absolutely Correct. But this far in my rather big research in christianity, many Church fathers and those afterwards, I find that tendency overwhelmingly great within christianity itself; namely to make the whole human race in its natural born state (even new born children. Well, isnt life itself evil? Then of course sex is sinful) into objects of hatred,. The objects need to take extreme measures in their lives, otherwise God Will torture them forever and ever in and everlasting fire of wrath and vengeance. But untill that day, let us "love" each other, even the objects of wrath for which nothing but endless torture awaits, until that blessed day of eternal revenge comes! That is what makes me want to puke. Now those are my last words of "hatred". I will from now try to to be "nice".

Except one more thing: This world can not be justified by moral means. God can not IMO justify his creation morally when a little child starves or get tortured to death. Only by aesthetic means can the world be justified; God as an artist. There, in aesthetic contemplation, is true love. Life as beauty. Life as a work of art. Not as a Court of law.

The Church fathers spoke about so many things.  You seem to speak almost about one thing:  how evil someone is.  The Church fathers did not have the same fixation you have.  Key word: fixation.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2017, 02:11:20 PM »
Speaking of evil, I guess you don't know how evil you, Beebert, sound when you say torturing a child is "artistic" and "beautiful." As always, I know you don't come up with the outre decadence you affect on your own, so I blame your aesthetic idols, those evil men; yet, since you have decided to be the champion of such things on the forum, you do share in the blame and evil.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2017, 02:31:12 PM »
Speaking of evil, I guess you don't know how evil you, Beebert, sound when you say torturing a child is "artistic" and "beautiful." As always, I know you don't come up with the outre decadence you affect on your own, so I blame your aesthetic idols, those evil men; yet, since you have decided to be the champion of such things on the forum, you do share in the blame and evil.
Never Said torturing a Child was evil But as usual you missunderdtand. I should have foreseen that. I Said that I see no justice coming from God in a world where Children are tortured (that is, if you Care to be sensitive what I say instead of continuing reading like a barbarian), that is, the essence of evil. I dont like God's plan of paradise and destructive rertibution if he foresaw all suffering of Children. What is so hard for you to understand? The last part of your attack I dont get. You just make wild guesses and I believe, without trying to sound superior, that I am the one of us two who at least try to think for himself. Evil men... I guess we have different opinions on what that is. I say that all or no one is evil
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2017, 02:39:01 PM »
Speaking of evil, I guess you don't know how evil you, Beebert, sound when you say torturing a child is "artistic" and "beautiful." As always, I know you don't come up with the outre decadence you affect on your own, so I blame your aesthetic idols, those evil men; yet, since you have decided to be the champion of such things on the forum, you do share in the blame and evil.
Never Said torturing a Child was evil But as usual you missunderdtand. I should have foreseen that. I Said that I see no justice coming from God in a world where Children are tortured (that is, if you Care to be sensitive what I say instead of continuing reading like a barbarian), that is, the essence of evil. I dont like God's plan of paradise and destructive rertibution if he foresaw all suffering of Children. What is so hard for you to understand? The last part of your attack I dont get. You just make wild guesses and I believe, without trying to sound superior, that I am the one of us two who at least try to think for himself. Evil men... I guess we have different opinions on what that is. I say that all or no one is evil

Nah, I don't think I'm imagining things. Here's what you wrote:

Except one more thing: This world can not be justified by moral means. God can not IMO justify his creation morally when a little child starves or get tortured to death. Only by aesthetic means can the world be justified; God as an artist. There, in aesthetic contemplation, is true love. Life as beauty. Life as a work of art. Not as a Court of law.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2017, 03:24:34 PM »
Speaking of evil, I guess you don't know how evil you, Beebert, sound when you say torturing a child is "artistic" and "beautiful." As always, I know you don't come up with the outre decadence you affect on your own, so I blame your aesthetic idols, those evil men; yet, since you have decided to be the champion of such things on the forum, you do share in the blame and evil.
Never Said torturing a Child was evil But as usual you missunderdtand. I should have foreseen that. I Said that I see no justice coming from God in a world where Children are tortured (that is, if you Care to be sensitive what I say instead of continuing reading like a barbarian), that is, the essence of evil. I dont like God's plan of paradise and destructive rertibution if he foresaw all suffering of Children. What is so hard for you to understand? The last part of your attack I dont get. You just make wild guesses and I believe, without trying to sound superior, that I am the one of us two who at least try to think for himself. Evil men... I guess we have different opinions on what that is. I say that all or no one is evil

Nah, I don't think I'm imagining things. Here's what you wrote:

Except one more thing: This world can not be justified by moral means. God can not IMO justify his creation morally when a little child starves or get tortured to death. Only by aesthetic means can the world be justified; God as an artist. There, in aesthetic contemplation, is true love. Life as beauty. Life as a work of art. Not as a Court of law.
Yes, my dear. You dont seem to understand the meaning of that. Said I "Only by aesthetic means can we say that torturing a Child is Beautiful. But if we call it moral, if the universe is constituted by moral principles, then torturing a Child is not. But it is just so aesthetically beautiful". My GOD. That you can even pretend to understand what I said in a way like that or similar
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2017, 03:35:23 PM »
Satan quoted Scripture, too (and to God's face).  Do you think Scripture is Satanic because of who quoted it?  Why blame the Scripture or the Faith because some twist it?  Why not blame the one who twists instead?
That is what I did. I didnt blame scripture. I blamed MacArthur for making it impossible for me to read the bible as the orthodox seems to read it. It is ingrained. I cant seem to get away with it. It is as if my brain, my nervous system, all my body and soul, tells me urgently that I am in a life-threatening situation everytime I read Paul's epistles for example.


If you're afraid that you've been programmed to read the Scriptures in a way that's neither orthodox nor Orthodox, then stop reading them for a while and read the Fathers instead, and allow them to re-program you.  Once that's done (understanding their approach to life, Christ, the scriptures, the faith, etc.), then re-introduce yourself to the Scriptures.  This is a multi-year process.

Please: read responsibly.

+1

There are parts of the Scriptures that I still find hard to read without seeing the false interpretations I was taught, and so I tend to stick to other parts - primarily the Gospels and the Psalms. The epistles I too find hard.

Beebert, you really do need to stop reading / listening to things that spark off these thoughts. In another thread, Mor gave you the advice to just stick to John's gospel. Father George has also given you good advice, but.....

For any of this advice, or that given by many others here, is to have any benefit, you need to act on it. Now. Otherwise you are like a patient who goes to a doctor, gets the medicine he needs, and then leaves it on the shelf, goes to another doctor, gets more medicine, leaves it on the shelf, goes to another doctor.....

Throw away the books by authors who provoke you. Delete the links to sites of preachers of hatred. Resolve only to read the gospels, and those authors who stir you to love. Walk away from the topics on here that cause angst not benefit. Just do it!

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2017, 04:29:55 PM »
Satan quoted Scripture, too (and to God's face).  Do you think Scripture is Satanic because of who quoted it?  Why blame the Scripture or the Faith because some twist it?  Why not blame the one who twists instead?
That is what I did. I didnt blame scripture. I blamed MacArthur for making it impossible for me to read the bible as the orthodox seems to read it. It is ingrained. I cant seem to get away with it. It is as if my brain, my nervous system, all my body and soul, tells me urgently that I am in a life-threatening situation everytime I read Paul's epistles for example.


If you're afraid that you've been programmed to read the Scriptures in a way that's neither orthodox nor Orthodox, then stop reading them for a while and read the Fathers instead, and allow them to re-program you.  Once that's done (understanding their approach to life, Christ, the scriptures, the faith, etc.), then re-introduce yourself to the Scriptures.  This is a multi-year process.

Please: read responsibly.

+1

There are parts of the Scriptures that I still find hard to read without seeing the false interpretations I was taught, and so I tend to stick to other parts - primarily the Gospels and the Psalms. The epistles I too find hard.

Beebert, you really do need to stop reading / listening to things that spark off these thoughts. In another thread, Mor gave you the advice to just stick to John's gospel. Father George has also given you good advice, but.....

For any of this advice, or that given by many others here, is to have any benefit, you need to act on it. Now. Otherwise you are like a patient who goes to a doctor, gets the medicine he needs, and then leaves it on the shelf, goes to another doctor, gets more medicine, leaves it on the shelf, goes to another doctor.....

Throw away the books by authors who provoke you. Delete the links to sites of preachers of hatred. Resolve only to read the gospels, and those authors who stir you to love. Walk away from the topics on here that cause angst not benefit. Just do it!
Okay... Thanks. BTW : The thing you Said about going to doctors and then leave the medication on the shelf: I am literally doing that too. Perhaps we human beings have something unconcious within us that actually seeks and yearns for Self-destruction. I firmly believe that
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2017, 05:47:50 PM »
Satan quoted Scripture, too (and to God's face).  Do you think Scripture is Satanic because of who quoted it?  Why blame the Scripture or the Faith because some twist it?  Why not blame the one who twists instead?
That is what I did. I didnt blame scripture. I blamed MacArthur for making it impossible for me to read the bible as the orthodox seems to read it. It is ingrained. I cant seem to get away with it. It is as if my brain, my nervous system, all my body and soul, tells me urgently that I am in a life-threatening situation everytime I read Paul's epistles for example.


If you're afraid that you've been programmed to read the Scriptures in a way that's neither orthodox nor Orthodox, then stop reading them for a while and read the Fathers instead, and allow them to re-program you.  Once that's done (understanding their approach to life, Christ, the scriptures, the faith, etc.), then re-introduce yourself to the Scriptures.  This is a multi-year process.

Please: read responsibly.

+1

There are parts of the Scriptures that I still find hard to read without seeing the false interpretations I was taught, and so I tend to stick to other parts - primarily the Gospels and the Psalms. The epistles I too find hard.

Beebert, you really do need to stop reading / listening to things that spark off these thoughts. In another thread, Mor gave you the advice to just stick to John's gospel. Father George has also given you good advice, but.....

For any of this advice, or that given by many others here, is to have any benefit, you need to act on it. Now. Otherwise you are like a patient who goes to a doctor, gets the medicine he needs, and then leaves it on the shelf, goes to another doctor, gets more medicine, leaves it on the shelf, goes to another doctor.....

Throw away the books by authors who provoke you. Delete the links to sites of preachers of hatred. Resolve only to read the gospels, and those authors who stir you to love. Walk away from the topics on here that cause angst not benefit. Just do it!
Okay... Thanks. BTW : The thing you Said about going to doctors and then leave the medication on the shelf: I am literally doing that too. Perhaps we human beings have something unconcious within us that actually seeks and yearns for Self-destruction. I firmly believe that

We do. He's called the Enemy of man and the Evil One (ho poneros: also, the Opressor). In the same letter where we read of this we read that the Christ came into the world by the love of God to defeat this Evil One's purposes.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline eddybear

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2017, 09:07:11 AM »
Satan quoted Scripture, too (and to God's face).  Do you think Scripture is Satanic because of who quoted it?  Why blame the Scripture or the Faith because some twist it?  Why not blame the one who twists instead?
That is what I did. I didnt blame scripture. I blamed MacArthur for making it impossible for me to read the bible as the orthodox seems to read it. It is ingrained. I cant seem to get away with it. It is as if my brain, my nervous system, all my body and soul, tells me urgently that I am in a life-threatening situation everytime I read Paul's epistles for example.


If you're afraid that you've been programmed to read the Scriptures in a way that's neither orthodox nor Orthodox, then stop reading them for a while and read the Fathers instead, and allow them to re-program you.  Once that's done (understanding their approach to life, Christ, the scriptures, the faith, etc.), then re-introduce yourself to the Scriptures.  This is a multi-year process.

Please: read responsibly.

+1

There are parts of the Scriptures that I still find hard to read without seeing the false interpretations I was taught, and so I tend to stick to other parts - primarily the Gospels and the Psalms. The epistles I too find hard.

Beebert, you really do need to stop reading / listening to things that spark off these thoughts. In another thread, Mor gave you the advice to just stick to John's gospel. Father George has also given you good advice, but.....

For any of this advice, or that given by many others here, is to have any benefit, you need to act on it. Now. Otherwise you are like a patient who goes to a doctor, gets the medicine he needs, and then leaves it on the shelf, goes to another doctor, gets more medicine, leaves it on the shelf, goes to another doctor.....

Throw away the books by authors who provoke you. Delete the links to sites of preachers of hatred. Resolve only to read the gospels, and those authors who stir you to love. Walk away from the topics on here that cause angst not benefit. Just do it!
Okay... Thanks. BTW : The thing you Said about going to doctors and then leave the medication on the shelf: I am literally doing that too. Perhaps we human beings have something unconcious within us that actually seeks and yearns for Self-destruction. I firmly believe that
Don't be afraid to take the medicine. It can be a very helpful part of your overall healing.

As for the self-destruction, yes, and I think Porter's got the diagnosis right. We were created by God for life, but the enemy of our souls seeks to destroy us. But we do not need to fear, if we are united with Christ who is the Life.

Offline Helladius

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2017, 09:55:12 AM »
I heard a wonderful sermon last Sunday which included the advice to try constantly to give thanks to God - to cultivate an attitude/behaviour of thankfulness, regardless of whether or not we're feeling thankful. With time, that helps to heal anxieties and give God's peace in our hearts, the priest said.

I find it only too easy to spend a lot of time worrying and criticising and feeling despondent, and can slip into a downcast state of mind where I'm fixated on asking why why why all these bad things are/happen. It's part of many mental illnesses - anxiety, depression, many others I'm sure. When we suffer from mental illness, our brains are suffering from an inbalance, and it's really easy to fixate on the negative, but that's just a downwards spiral that never makes anything better. Whereas, I've been trying this attitude of thankfulness to God, even when I'm feeling anxious and downcast, and already it's helping. I've just been trying to stay in the present moment (because, as my priest says to me, it's in the present moment that we meet God) and thank God for His blessings in the present moment when I get a chance - on the bus, walking around, getting up in the morning, etc. - especially when I'm feeling in a negative frame of mind. There's such joy in the little things that I often overlook like "Thank You Lord for the beauty of the sky and clouds, Thank You for sunshine, Thank You for my lovely cat and his company right now," etc. Maybe it sounds childish, but we are called to be like children in a way and it gets back to the simplicity of being thankful and joyful in the present moment for the constant wonders of little things, more like children are.

How about giving this a try for a couple of weeks, Beebert?? See if it helps? Committing for a couple of weeks to really trying not to fixate on negativity but instead to keep saying thank You to the Creator for all the blessings around you and in your life in the present moment. 
'Be extremely careful not to offend anyone in word or deed, for it is a grave sin. When someone is offended, God, who loves the man, is also offended, for there can be no offending man without offending God.'
St Tikhon of Zadonsk

'Where thy treasure is, there is thy heart also' Matt 6:21

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2017, 05:02:14 PM »
I heard a wonderful sermon last Sunday which included the advice to try constantly to give thanks to God - to cultivate an attitude/behaviour of thankfulness, regardless of whether or not we're feeling thankful. With time, that helps to heal anxieties and give God's peace in our hearts, the priest said.

I find it only too easy to spend a lot of time worrying and criticising and feeling despondent, and can slip into a downcast state of mind where I'm fixated on asking why why why all these bad things are/happen. It's part of many mental illnesses - anxiety, depression, many others I'm sure. When we suffer from mental illness, our brains are suffering from an inbalance, and it's really easy to fixate on the negative, but that's just a downwards spiral that never makes anything better. Whereas, I've been trying this attitude of thankfulness to God, even when I'm feeling anxious and downcast, and already it's helping. I've just been trying to stay in the present moment (because, as my priest says to me, it's in the present moment that we meet God) and thank God for His blessings in the present moment when I get a chance - on the bus, walking around, getting up in the morning, etc. - especially when I'm feeling in a negative frame of mind. There's such joy in the little things that I often overlook like "Thank You Lord for the beauty of the sky and clouds, Thank You for sunshine, Thank You for my lovely cat and his company right now," etc. Maybe it sounds childish, but we are called to be like children in a way and it gets back to the simplicity of being thankful and joyful in the present moment for the constant wonders of little things, more like children are.

How about giving this a try for a couple of weeks, Beebert?? See if it helps? Committing for a couple of weeks to really trying not to fixate on negativity but instead to keep saying thank You to the Creator for all the blessings around you and in your life in the present moment.
That might be something. Praising in spite of... Thank you
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2017, 05:19:18 PM »
Satan quoted Scripture, too (and to God's face).  Do you think Scripture is Satanic because of who quoted it?  Why blame the Scripture or the Faith because some twist it?  Why not blame the one who twists instead?
That is what I did. I didnt blame scripture. I blamed MacArthur for making it impossible for me to read the bible as the orthodox seems to read it. It is ingrained. I cant seem to get away with it. It is as if my brain, my nervous system, all my body and soul, tells me urgently that I am in a life-threatening situation everytime I read Paul's epistles for example.


If you're afraid that you've been programmed to read the Scriptures in a way that's neither orthodox nor Orthodox, then stop reading them for a while and read the Fathers instead, and allow them to re-program you.  Once that's done (understanding their approach to life, Christ, the scriptures, the faith, etc.), then re-introduce yourself to the Scriptures.  This is a multi-year process.

Please: read responsibly.

+1

There are parts of the Scriptures that I still find hard to read without seeing the false interpretations I was taught, and so I tend to stick to other parts - primarily the Gospels and the Psalms. The epistles I too find hard.

Beebert, you really do need to stop reading / listening to things that spark off these thoughts. In another thread, Mor gave you the advice to just stick to John's gospel. Father George has also given you good advice, but.....

For any of this advice, or that given by many others here, is to have any benefit, you need to act on it. Now. Otherwise you are like a patient who goes to a doctor, gets the medicine he needs, and then leaves it on the shelf, goes to another doctor, gets more medicine, leaves it on the shelf, goes to another doctor.....

Throw away the books by authors who provoke you. Delete the links to sites of preachers of hatred. Resolve only to read the gospels, and those authors who stir you to love. Walk away from the topics on here that cause angst not benefit. Just do it!
Okay... Thanks. BTW : The thing you Said about going to doctors and then leave the medication on the shelf: I am literally doing that too. Perhaps we human beings have something unconcious within us that actually seeks and yearns for Self-destruction. I firmly believe that
Don't be afraid to take the medicine. It can be a very helpful part of your overall healing.

As for the self-destruction, yes, and I think Porter's got the diagnosis right. We were created by God for life, but the enemy of our souls seeks to destroy us. But we do not need to fear, if we are united with Christ who is the Life.
Well the thing is that the message of God tells me this: "I created you. I gave you the greatest honor of all, to rule and be the crown of my creation. My image, holy. But immediately you rebelled. I gave you blessings through Abraham, but all his descendants rebelled. I freed you from Egypt, but you rebelled again. I gave you the law, and you broke it. I sent you prophets, but pleaded like a man to his adultoruos wife 'come back!', but you killed the prophets too. Then I thought; 'I send then my own beloved son, so that they can all be saved who believe in him'. But you crucified him! Now I said 'If you only Believe in his atoning death, you will be saved... And as a free gift I will give you eternal life in bliss' Now there is no excuse! Look at all you have killed, if you don't Believe now, I will infinitely torture you without end."

Now of course one can view that as infinite love and mercy, that despite man's rebellion he uses that rebellion to give man eternal life as a free gift. But. He is both omnipotent and omniscient. That throws a whole new problem in it all. Now suddenly he knew and planned it right from start and still created all who would reject him... I cant stop feeling that I didnt ask for all this. I would be very happy to give up eternal life If I could then also eliminate the existence of hell. Hell simply makes heaven not worth it for me. I would rather want nothingness than this hideous division between sheeps and goats, righteous and wicked, saved and damned... I would Thank God if this life was it. If eternal life=living in the present to the fullest. If I could just enjoy music, living in a cottage calmly in peace without harming anyone. Then resting forever, like an eternal, dreamless sleep. That would be better than the eternal division into two camps
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 05:21:47 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline eddybear

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2017, 05:52:09 PM »
Well the thing is that the message of God tells me this: "I created you. I gave you the greatest honor of all, to rule and be the crown of my creation. My image, holy. But immediately you rebelled. I gave you blessings through Abraham, but all his descendants rebelled. I freed you from Egypt, but you rebelled again. I gave you the law, and you broke it. I sent you prophets, but pleaded like a man to his adultoruos wife 'come back!', but you killed the prophets too. Then I thought; 'I send then my own beloved son, so that they can all be saved who believe in him'. But you crucified him! Now I said 'If you only Believe in his atoning death, you will be saved... And as a free gift I will give you eternal life in bliss' Now there is no excuse! Look at all you have killed, if you don't Believe now, I will infinitely torture you without end."  there is nothing else that can save you from the destruction you are bringing upon yourself
I was with you until that last phrase. God doesn't torture people infinitely. I've been so bold as to suggest an edit.

Did you ever get round to reading CS Lewis's book that I recommended, "The Great Divorce"? I really do think it might help you see things from a different angle.



Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2017, 06:35:22 PM »
Well the thing is that the message of God tells me this: "I created you. I gave you the greatest honor of all, to rule and be the crown of my creation. My image, holy. But immediately you rebelled. I gave you blessings through Abraham, but all his descendants rebelled. I freed you from Egypt, but you rebelled again. I gave you the law, and you broke it. I sent you prophets, but pleaded like a man to his adultoruos wife 'come back!', but you killed the prophets too. Then I thought; 'I send then my own beloved son, so that they can all be saved who believe in him'. But you crucified him! Now I said 'If you only Believe in his atoning death, you will be saved... And as a free gift I will give you eternal life in bliss' Now there is no excuse! Look at all you have killed, if you don't Believe now, I will infinitely torture you without end."  there is nothing else that can save you from the destruction you are bringing upon yourself
I was with you until that last phrase. God doesn't torture people infinitely. I've been so bold as to suggest an edit.

Did you ever get round to reading CS Lewis's book that I recommended, "The Great Divorce"? I really do think it might help you see things from a different angle.
I Hope what you are saying is true... But from the basis of the scripture, I am afraid that both you and CS Lewis are sort of adapting yourself to what People would rather want to hear. I am not saying this is necessairly so, but bug fear that is what many of us do. After all, God did also kill all humankind in the flood, but then nothing good came out of it anyway, life was still miserable and God was still angry. He hated Esau, killed the caananites, was unforgiving and harsch to the weak israelites. He was forgiving to David but not at all to Saul. Some say that is because David loved God while Saul didnt. But who enables man to love God? His grace. Saul asked for forgiveness. Scripture suggests God just randomly hated Saul while loving David. Despite the fact that it seems like David was just as great a sinner, if not worse. All these killings in the old testament ordered and executed by God, do they really suggest that "there is nothing else that can save you from the destruction you are bringing upon yourself"? Now Jesus; regarding his judgement, he continuosly seems to speak about an active punishment. So does all the apostles, not to speak of John who wrote revelation. Words like vengeance, wrath, retribution comes to mind. I suggest that most of the writers in the old testament, described a Culture that was barbarian and stupid. And I think the same stupidity is seen sometimes in the new testament. Sorry to say that, but it was after all the new testament that introduced Expressions like 'eternal fire', 'fire and brimstone' 'smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever', 'lake of fire', etc. And Jesus once again; he spoke about these things and about how God would slice people up Into pieces and cast then out in utter darkeness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. And much else.

There is no wonder that christianity has been so violent when one observes what the texts actually say. Now I have read the baghavad gita, and to me that book expresses the beautiful things in the Christian message in a profounder way. Turning the other cheek, love enemies etc. Seems incompatible with slicing People in to pieces etc.
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2017, 07:40:52 PM »
The irony, it hurts. The Baghavad Gita is the discourse of a war god. The Golden Rule is from the Bible.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2017, 07:59:42 PM »
The irony, it hurts. The Baghavad Gita is the discourse of a war god. The Golden Rule is from the Bible.
I know what the baghavad gita is about. There is no eternal torture there. Dont Tell me the God of the old testament isnt a war god. BTW, what is the orthodox view about the fact that Jesus quite clearly taught in for example Luke 21 that he would return any minute after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem? In other words it seems to me like according to himself he would have returned a long time ago? Or am I missing something? Also, does 3 equal 1?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 08:01:26 PM by beebert »
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2017, 08:00:48 PM »
The irony, it hurts. The Baghavad Gita is the discourse of a war god. The Golden Rule is from the Bible.
I know what the baghavad gita is about. There is no eternal torture there. BTW, what is the orthodox view about the fact that Jesus quite clearly taught in for example Luke 21 that he would return any minute after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem? In other words it seems to me like according to himself he would have returned a long time ago? Or am I missing something? Also, does 3 equal 1?

No you don't.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #53 on: July 02, 2017, 08:03:19 PM »
The irony, it hurts. The Baghavad Gita is the discourse of a war god. The Golden Rule is from the Bible.
I know what the baghavad gita is about. There is no eternal torture there. BTW, what is the orthodox view about the fact that Jesus quite clearly taught in for example Luke 21 that he would return any minute after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem? In other words it seems to me like according to himself he would have returned a long time ago? Or am I missing something? Also, does 3 equal 1?

No you don't.
You are a ridiculous and silly little man. The message of Baghavad Gita is quite christian. And speaking of war god, don't tell me God of the old testament isnt a war god. Baghavad Gita is profound in a way the old testament isnt, for it gives an explanation of war that the bible doesnt. In a sense, the Baghavad Gita can help to justify the actions of Jahveh and his barbaric tribe of Israel in the old testament and make them more... Sane.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 08:08:04 PM by beebert »
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2017, 08:14:53 PM »
The divine mandate for castes and wars as narrated by a god on the cusp of exterminating an arbitrary half of an ancient and noble clan inspires you, but the Book in which a god spends his short life teaching forgiveness and gives his very life for his friends fills you with loathing. Got it.

At this point all I'd ask is you start citing your claims about Holy Scripture, as you've spent weeks here making assertions and characterizations about its content without one reference, and I can assure your readers these are far, far from being accurate. I think just to protect yourself from assumptions of libel you'll want to start to cite.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2017, 08:35:21 PM »
The divine mandate for castes and wars as narrated by a god on the cusp of exterminating an arbitrary half of an ancient and noble clan inspires you, but the Book in which a god spends his short life teaching forgiveness and gives his very life for his friends fills you with loathing. Got it.

At this point all I'd ask is you start citing your claims about Holy Scripture, as you've spent weeks here making assertions and characterizations about its content without one reference, and I can assure your readers these are far, far from being accurate. I think just to protect yourself from assumptions of libel you'll want to start to cite.
I Believe the apostles distorted Christ's message Into a message of hopelessness and bad news for the majority of mankind. Especially Paul who started to theologize and interpet things almost like a professor of dogmatics. I compared the baghavad gita btw to the bloody war parts of the bible, and Said that the gita is much more profound there. I mean, comparing it to revelation of John for example. It seems ironic that both the gospel of John and the revelation were by an author named John, and even more ironic that the early church thought it was the same author, even though one has a Good and sophisticated Language while the other one writes as if he had just learned how to spell. Also, one has a message of love and faith,  the other one a message of revenge and hate. Did John start to become bitter, or were they two different authors? I dislike the fact that as a 'Christian', I am not aloud to dislike anything in the old testament. I MUST revere Paul, Peter, John and John, James, Moses, Joshua, etc. While in my heart I am thinking: "An immortal John of Patmos... Who would endure that?". Christ is the only one I really can stand in the gospel right now. And the apostle John(as long as he didnt write the book of revelation).

Do you ask me to quote scripture? What for? To prove I have read it? Which parts shall I quote?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 08:41:26 PM by beebert »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2017, 08:41:27 PM »
The divine mandate for castes and wars as narrated by a god on the cusp of exterminating an arbitrary half of an ancient and noble clan inspires you, but the Book in which a god spends his short life teaching forgiveness and gives his very life for his friends fills you with loathing. Got it.

At this point all I'd ask is you start citing your claims about Holy Scripture, as you've spent weeks here making assertions and characterizations about its content without one reference, and I can assure your readers these are far, far from being accurate. I think just to protect yourself from assumptions of libel you'll want to start to cite.
I Believe the apostles distorted Christ's message Into a message of hopelessness and bad news for the majority of mankind. Especially Paul who started to theologize and interpet things almost like a dogmatician. I compared the baghavad gita btw to the bloody war parts of the bible, and Said that the gita is much more profound there. I mean, comparing it to revelation of John for example. It seems ironic that both the gospel of John and the revelation were by an author named John, and even more ironic that the early church thought it was the same author, even though one has a Good and sophisticated Language while the other one writes as if he had just learned how to spell. Also, one has a message of love and faith,  the other one a message of revenge and hate. Did John start to become bitter, or were they two different authors? I dislike the fact that as a 'Christian', I am not aloud to dislike anything in the old testament. I MUST revere Paul, Peter, John and John, James, Moses, Joshua, etc. While in my heart I am thinking: "An immortal John of Patmos... Who would endure that?"

Do you ask me to quote scripture? What for? To prove I have read it? Which parts shall I quote?

So you feel you should call our saints demons and retards without the slightest obligation to show it by citations?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2017, 08:46:41 PM »
Why is St. Paul being pilloried? I think he lays things out quite logically in Romans 1,2,& 3. ROmans 1& 3 pertain the precarious situation of humanity but he recognizes that any individual may do what is rigjt by what is right in natural law in Romans 2. Why is preaching a non judgmental warning wrong? do you have a better solution?
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #58 on: July 02, 2017, 08:46:46 PM »
The divine mandate for castes and wars as narrated by a god on the cusp of exterminating an arbitrary half of an ancient and noble clan inspires you, but the Book in which a god spends his short life teaching forgiveness and gives his very life for his friends fills you with loathing. Got it.

At this point all I'd ask is you start citing your claims about Holy Scripture, as you've spent weeks here making assertions and characterizations about its content without one reference, and I can assure your readers these are far, far from being accurate. I think just to protect yourself from assumptions of libel you'll want to start to cite.
I Believe the apostles distorted Christ's message Into a message of hopelessness and bad news for the majority of mankind. Especially Paul who started to theologize and interpet things almost like a dogmatician. I compared the baghavad gita btw to the bloody war parts of the bible, and Said that the gita is much more profound there. I mean, comparing it to revelation of John for example. It seems ironic that both the gospel of John and the revelation were by an author named John, and even more ironic that the early church thought it was the same author, even though one has a Good and sophisticated Language while the other one writes as if he had just learned how to spell. Also, one has a message of love and faith,  the other one a message of revenge and hate. Did John start to become bitter, or were they two different authors? I dislike the fact that as a 'Christian', I am not aloud to dislike anything in the old testament. I MUST revere Paul, Peter, John and John, James, Moses, Joshua, etc. While in my heart I am thinking: "An immortal John of Patmos... Who would endure that?"

Do you ask me to quote scripture? What for? To prove I have read it? Which parts shall I quote?

So you feel you should call our saints demons and retards without the slightest obligation to show it by citations?
My bible is in swedish so give me a minute to look up in English. I didnt call them demons. Retards to some extent maybe though. I don't venerate them, that is for sure Imagine: If John of Patmos, that blood thirsty and bitter little cave man, will judge the world (Paul says the saints will judge the world! Aha! Great moment for revenge!), who will be saved?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 08:47:39 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2017, 08:51:47 PM »
Why is St. Paul being pilloried? I think he lays things out quite logically in Romans 1,2,& 3. ROmans 1& 3 pertain the precarious situation of humanity but he recognizes that any individual may do what is rigjt by what is right in natural law in Romans 2. Why is preaching a non judgmental warning wrong? do you have a better solution?
It is Paul's obsession with election and predestination that I can't stand. Other than that I find many parts of his writings really good, even inspiring. Also, why doesnt he say anything about the life of Christ? Didnt it interest him? Did he hate this life so much?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 08:53:34 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2017, 08:52:27 PM »
The divine mandate for castes and wars as narrated by a god on the cusp of exterminating an arbitrary half of an ancient and noble clan inspires you, but the Book in which a god spends his short life teaching forgiveness and gives his very life for his friends fills you with loathing. Got it.

At this point all I'd ask is you start citing your claims about Holy Scripture, as you've spent weeks here making assertions and characterizations about its content without one reference, and I can assure your readers these are far, far from being accurate. I think just to protect yourself from assumptions of libel you'll want to start to cite.
I Believe the apostles distorted Christ's message Into a message of hopelessness and bad news for the majority of mankind. Especially Paul who started to theologize and interpet things almost like a dogmatician. I compared the baghavad gita btw to the bloody war parts of the bible, and Said that the gita is much more profound there. I mean, comparing it to revelation of John for example. It seems ironic that both the gospel of John and the revelation were by an author named John, and even more ironic that the early church thought it was the same author, even though one has a Good and sophisticated Language while the other one writes as if he had just learned how to spell. Also, one has a message of love and faith,  the other one a message of revenge and hate. Did John start to become bitter, or were they two different authors? I dislike the fact that as a 'Christian', I am not aloud to dislike anything in the old testament. I MUST revere Paul, Peter, John and John, James, Moses, Joshua, etc. While in my heart I am thinking: "An immortal John of Patmos... Who would endure that?"

Do you ask me to quote scripture? What for? To prove I have read it? Which parts shall I quote?

So you feel you should call our saints demons and retards without the slightest obligation to show it by citations?
My bible is in swedish so give me a minute to look up in English. I didnt call them demons. Retards to some extent maybe though. I don't venerate them, that is for sure Imagine: If John of Patmos, that blood thirsty and bitter little cave man, will judge the world (Paul says the saints will judge the world! Aha! Great moment for revenge!), who will be saved?

Not the Swedish Bible translators, that's for sure. 
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #61 on: July 02, 2017, 08:52:54 PM »
Why is St. Paul being pilloried? I think he lays things out quite logically in Romans 1,2,& 3. ROmans 1& 3 pertain the precarious situation of humanity but he recognizes that any individual may do what is rigjt by what is right in natural law in Romans 2. Why is preaching a non judgmental warning wrong? do you have a better solution?
It is Paul's obsession with election and predestination that I can't stand. Other than that I find many parts of his writings really good, even inspiring.

Paul doesn't spend his time posting here about election and predestination. 
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #62 on: July 02, 2017, 08:59:33 PM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine. 
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #63 on: July 02, 2017, 09:03:56 PM »
The Local Townsfolk = Forum Members
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #64 on: July 02, 2017, 09:20:14 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibUI71c84tg

A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?

At least he is consistent.  Most Protestants these days are not and have retreated into a sort of relativistic pluralism.

I'd prefer Protestants actually believe their version of Christianity is true than those who don't even believe there is a church that possesses the Truth.

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #65 on: July 02, 2017, 09:32:01 PM »
Why is St. Paul being pilloried? I think he lays things out quite logically in Romans 1,2,& 3. ROmans 1& 3 pertain the precarious situation of humanity but he recognizes that any individual may do what is rigjt by what is right in natural law in Romans 2. Why is preaching a non judgmental warning wrong? do you have a better solution?
It is Paul's obsession with election and predestination that I can't stand. Other than that I find many parts of his writings really good, even inspiring. Also, why doesnt he say anything about the life of Christ? Didnt it interest him? Did he hate this life so much?

Here you go again making outrageous claims but not the slightest citation for them. St. Paul spoke and wrote considerably about Christ, including one of the important accounts of the Last Supper.

The divine mandate for castes and wars as narrated by a god on the cusp of exterminating an arbitrary half of an ancient and noble clan inspires you, but the Book in which a god spends his short life teaching forgiveness and gives his very life for his friends fills you with loathing. Got it.

At this point all I'd ask is you start citing your claims about Holy Scripture, as you've spent weeks here making assertions and characterizations about its content without one reference, and I can assure your readers these are far, far from being accurate. I think just to protect yourself from assumptions of libel you'll want to start to cite.
I Believe the apostles distorted Christ's message Into a message of hopelessness and bad news for the majority of mankind. Especially Paul who started to theologize and interpet things almost like a dogmatician. I compared the baghavad gita btw to the bloody war parts of the bible, and Said that the gita is much more profound there. I mean, comparing it to revelation of John for example. It seems ironic that both the gospel of John and the revelation were by an author named John, and even more ironic that the early church thought it was the same author, even though one has a Good and sophisticated Language while the other one writes as if he had just learned how to spell. Also, one has a message of love and faith,  the other one a message of revenge and hate. Did John start to become bitter, or were they two different authors? I dislike the fact that as a 'Christian', I am not aloud to dislike anything in the old testament. I MUST revere Paul, Peter, John and John, James, Moses, Joshua, etc. While in my heart I am thinking: "An immortal John of Patmos... Who would endure that?"

Do you ask me to quote scripture? What for? To prove I have read it? Which parts shall I quote?

So you feel you should call our saints demons and retards without the slightest obligation to show it by citations?
My bible is in swedish so give me a minute to look up in English.

 No need. The reference numbers are international.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #66 on: July 02, 2017, 09:36:13 PM »
The divine mandate for castes and wars as narrated by a god on the cusp of exterminating an arbitrary half of an ancient and noble clan inspires you, but the Book in which a god spends his short life teaching forgiveness and gives his very life for his friends fills you with loathing. Got it.

At this point all I'd ask is you start citing your claims about Holy Scripture, as you've spent weeks here making assertions and characterizations about its content without one reference, and I can assure your readers these are far, far from being accurate. I think just to protect yourself from assumptions of libel you'll want to start to cite.
I Believe the apostles distorted Christ's message Into a message of hopelessness and bad news for the majority of mankind. Especially Paul who started to theologize and interpet things almost like a dogmatician. I compared the baghavad gita btw to the bloody war parts of the bible, and Said that the gita is much more profound there. I mean, comparing it to revelation of John for example. It seems ironic that both the gospel of John and the revelation were by an author named John, and even more ironic that the early church thought it was the same author, even though one has a Good and sophisticated Language while the other one writes as if he had just learned how to spell. Also, one has a message of love and faith,  the other one a message of revenge and hate. Did John start to become bitter, or were they two different authors? I dislike the fact that as a 'Christian', I am not aloud to dislike anything in the old testament. I MUST revere Paul, Peter, John and John, James, Moses, Joshua, etc. While in my heart I am thinking: "An immortal John of Patmos... Who would endure that?"

Do you ask me to quote scripture? What for? To prove I have read it? Which parts shall I quote?

So you feel you should call our saints demons and retards without the slightest obligation to show it by citations?
Examples of texts I don't like:

First, there are two places where Paul speaks about how God foreknew, then predestined, then elected etc. I dont like those but cant find them either. Romans 1,2,3(yes, I realized I dont like these chapters except a few passaged), 9(whole chapter), 12:19-21, 13 (whole chapter, from now on I dont write 'whole chapter' Hur everything where a number stands alone means I dislike the whole chapter basically). Corinthians 7 and 11. Galatians 1, 5, 6. Ephesians 1, 4:18-19. 2nd Thesselonians 2:1-12. First Timothy 2:11-15 (Though here I somewhat understands Paul, But I dont think Christ would have agreed), 5. Second Timothy 3. Titus 2. Hebrews... Ugh. Chapter 2, 3, 6, 10, 12, 13. The letter of Peter I dislike from start to finish, both if them. Same with Jude. And the Book of revelationI would like to tear out from the bible, except a few parts of it. The gospels I like, except some of the parables that ends with Christ throwing people out in utter darkeness and casting them in to an everlasting fire and talking about and unforgivable sin that no one really understands what it is.

« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 09:37:30 PM by beebert »
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Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #67 on: July 02, 2017, 09:42:44 PM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
I dont. I confess that Perhaps it is better in that language. But at the same time almost everyone says God's Word is infallible, that it is all inspired etc. Of Course the writers were inspired. Infallible? Hardly. If so, then lsnguage wouldnt matter because God would make sure all translations were perfect. Or no? One must know koine greek and hebrew? Then perhaps the pope (even though he spoke and read latin) had a point when he forbade common man to read the scriptures.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #68 on: July 02, 2017, 09:47:06 PM »
Why is St. Paul being pilloried? I think he lays things out quite logically in Romans 1,2,& 3. ROmans 1& 3 pertain the precarious situation of humanity but he recognizes that any individual may do what is rigjt by what is right in natural law in Romans 2. Why is preaching a non judgmental warning wrong? do you have a better solution?
It is Paul's obsession with election and predestination that I can't stand. Other than that I find many parts of his writings really good, even inspiring. Also, why doesnt he say anything about the life of Christ? Didnt it interest him? Did he hate this life so much?

Here you go again making outrageous claims but not the slightest citation for them. St. Paul spoke and wrote considerably about Christ, including one of the important accounts of the Last Supper.

The divine mandate for castes and wars as narrated by a god on the cusp of exterminating an arbitrary half of an ancient and noble clan inspires you, but the Book in which a god spends his short life teaching forgiveness and gives his very life for his friends fills you with loathing. Got it.

At this point all I'd ask is you start citing your claims about Holy Scripture, as you've spent weeks here making assertions and characterizations about its content without one reference, and I can assure your readers these are far, far from being accurate. I think just to protect yourself from assumptions of libel you'll want to start to cite.
I Believe the apostles distorted Christ's message Into a message of hopelessness and bad news for the majority of mankind. Especially Paul who started to theologize and interpet things almost like a dogmatician. I compared the baghavad gita btw to the bloody war parts of the bible, and Said that the gita is much more profound there. I mean, comparing it to revelation of John for example. It seems ironic that both the gospel of John and the revelation were by an author named John, and even more ironic that the early church thought it was the same author, even though one has a Good and sophisticated Language while the other one writes as if he had just learned how to spell. Also, one has a message of love and faith,  the other one a message of revenge and hate. Did John start to become bitter, or were they two different authors? I dislike the fact that as a 'Christian', I am not aloud to dislike anything in the old testament. I MUST revere Paul, Peter, John and John, James, Moses, Joshua, etc. While in my heart I am thinking: "An immortal John of Patmos... Who would endure that?"

Do you ask me to quote scripture? What for? To prove I have read it? Which parts shall I quote?

So you feel you should call our saints demons and retards without the slightest obligation to show it by citations?
My bible is in swedish so give me a minute to look up in English.

 No need. The reference numbers are international.
How can I make citation and references about things that arent there? Sure he spoke about the last supper briefly(that part I dislike too btw, how he makes up ground for superstition by saying how people die when they participate in the last supper)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 09:47:28 PM by beebert »
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2017, 09:47:53 PM »
Thank you. And the claim that the Gospel of John can hardly put a sentence together? Granted it's the book with the smallest vocabulary in Greek literature, but that's not the same thing. And most of your claims have been sweeping, that the Bible comprises no mercy or goodness or reason no matter how you search ... I'm not sure how you'd cite such universals, but some attempt at showing you speak in good faith would be in order. I'm blown away thinking what gall it must take to refer to your spiritual forbears as wretches, worthless, pure evil, and so on. I'm astounded that you'd expect anyone to hear you seriously and not assume you are motivated by juvenile malice to humiliate your fellow-posters. Worst, I'm afraid someone ignorant enough might believe you. All this could be partly remedied if you'd make some references to a book or a chapter when you speak.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #70 on: July 02, 2017, 09:48:56 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibUI71c84tg

A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?

At least he is consistent.  Most Protestants these days are not and have retreated into a sort of relativistic pluralism.

I'd prefer Protestants actually believe their version of Christianity is true than those who don't even believe there is a church that possesses the Truth.
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #71 on: July 02, 2017, 09:51:13 PM »
Thank you. And the claim that the Gospel of John can hardly put a sentence together? Granted it's the book with the smallest vocabulary in Greek literature, but that's not the same thing. And most of your claims have been sweeping, that the Bible comprises no mercy or goodness or reason no matter how you search ... I'm not sure how you'd cite such universals, but some attempt at showing you speak in good faith would be in order. I'm blown away thinking what gall it must take to refer to your spiritual forbears as wretches, worthless, pure evil, and so on. I'm astounded that you'd expect anyone to hear you seriously and not assume you are motivated by juvenile malice to humiliate your fellow-posters. Worst, I'm afraid someone ignorant enough might believe you. All this could be partly remedied if you'd make some references to a book or a chapter when you speak.
NO! The gospel of John CAN! I praised the gospel of John. I Said the Book of revelation seems to be written by someone who just learned how to spell. I dont understand what you mean about the rest? Believe me about what?
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2017, 09:54:49 PM »
I would rather be a jew than a member of Macarthur's Church.

Well, beebert, you're not in Macarthur's church, you're in the Orthodox Church. You can't heal a wound if you keep picking off the scab and scratching it raw again.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 09:56:28 PM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #73 on: July 02, 2017, 09:55:28 PM »
Thank you. And the claim that the Gospel of John can hardly put a sentence together? Granted it's the book with the smallest vocabulary in Greek literature, but that's not the same thing. And most of your claims have been sweeping, that the Bible comprises no mercy or goodness or reason no matter how you search ... I'm not sure how you'd cite such universals, but some attempt at showing you speak in good faith would be in order. I'm blown away thinking what gall it must take to refer to your spiritual forbears as wretches, worthless, pure evil, and so on. I'm astounded that you'd expect anyone to hear you seriously and not assume you are motivated by juvenile malice to humiliate your fellow-posters. Worst, I'm afraid someone ignorant enough might believe you. All this could be partly remedied if you'd make some references to a book or a chapter when you speak.
NO! The gospel of John CAN! I praised the gospel of John. I Said the Book of revelation seems to be written by someone who just learned how to spell. I dont understand what you mean about the rest? Believe me about what?

The Revelation is one of the densest, most profound works of poetry ever to fall from a pen. Some modern scholars may abuse Evangelists Mark and John's Greek as simple, but the Revelation is a tour du force. The poetic idiom of the rightly-famed Hebrew prophets was brought alive in Koine.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #74 on: July 02, 2017, 09:55:37 PM »
Thank you. And the claim that the Gospel of John can hardly put a sentence together? Granted it's the book with the smallest vocabulary in Greek literature, but that's not the same thing. And most of your claims have been sweeping, that the Bible comprises no mercy or goodness or reason no matter how you search ... I'm not sure how you'd cite such universals, but some attempt at showing you speak in good faith would be in order. I'm blown away thinking what gall it must take to refer to your spiritual forbears as wretches, worthless, pure evil, and so on. I'm astounded that you'd expect anyone to hear you seriously and not assume you are motivated by juvenile malice to humiliate your fellow-posters. Worst, I'm afraid someone ignorant enough might believe you. All this could be partly remedied if you'd make some references to a book or a chapter when you speak.
Also, the bible has tons of messages about mercy and forgiveness. Especially the gospels  (most of all Luke I would say). I have never Said anything about that not being true. But the combination of that with doctrines like predestination, election, foreknowledge, sovereignty, creation ex nihilo, eternal damnation in a lake of fire etc. Just makes it sort of "God is standing with a pistol" kind of situation to me
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #75 on: July 02, 2017, 09:58:25 PM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
I dont. I confess that Perhaps it is better in that language. But at the same time almost everyone says God's Word is infallible, that it is all inspired etc. Of Course the writers were inspired. Infallible? Hardly. If so, then lsnguage wouldnt matter because God would make sure all translations were perfect. Or no? One must know koine greek and hebrew? Then perhaps the pope (even though he spoke and read latin) had a point when he forbade common man to read the scriptures.

You know what you call a person who insults someone or something he doesn't understand or know?
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #76 on: July 02, 2017, 09:59:05 PM »
Thank you. And the claim that the Gospel of John can hardly put a sentence together? Granted it's the book with the smallest vocabulary in Greek literature, but that's not the same thing. And most of your claims have been sweeping, that the Bible comprises no mercy or goodness or reason no matter how you search ... I'm not sure how you'd cite such universals, but some attempt at showing you speak in good faith would be in order. I'm blown away thinking what gall it must take to refer to your spiritual forbears as wretches, worthless, pure evil, and so on. I'm astounded that you'd expect anyone to hear you seriously and not assume you are motivated by juvenile malice to humiliate your fellow-posters. Worst, I'm afraid someone ignorant enough might believe you. All this could be partly remedied if you'd make some references to a book or a chapter when you speak.
Also, the bible has tons of messages about mercy and forgiveness. Especially the gospels  (most of all Luke I would say). I have never Said anything about that not being true. But the combination of that with doctrines like predestination, election, foreknowledge, sovereignty, creation ex nihilo, eternal damnation in a lake of fire etc. Just makes it sort of "God is standing with a pistol" kind of situation to me

Yeah yeah you'll retreat to this kind of minimal criticism when you're confronted, and then an hour later you'll start a new thread saying you searched the Bible with tears and could find only the vilest sacrilege therein etc. etc. Look we have our share of self-obsessed posters, but not that many of them make the Holy Trinity their White Whale. You can't expect nods and smiles.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #77 on: July 02, 2017, 09:59:48 PM »
Thank you. And the claim that the Gospel of John can hardly put a sentence together? Granted it's the book with the smallest vocabulary in Greek literature, but that's not the same thing. And most of your claims have been sweeping, that the Bible comprises no mercy or goodness or reason no matter how you search ... I'm not sure how you'd cite such universals, but some attempt at showing you speak in good faith would be in order. I'm blown away thinking what gall it must take to refer to your spiritual forbears as wretches, worthless, pure evil, and so on. I'm astounded that you'd expect anyone to hear you seriously and not assume you are motivated by juvenile malice to humiliate your fellow-posters. Worst, I'm afraid someone ignorant enough might believe you. All this could be partly remedied if you'd make some references to a book or a chapter when you speak.
NO! The gospel of John CAN! I praised the gospel of John. I Said the Book of revelation seems to be written by someone who just learned how to spell. I dont understand what you mean about the rest? Believe me about what?

The Revelation is one of the densest, most profound works of poetry ever to fall from a pen. Some modern scholars may abuse Evangelists Mark and John's Greek as simple, but the Revelation is a tour du force. The poetic idiom of the rightly-famed Hebrew prophets was brought alive in Koine.
Hmm... Then Swedes are exceptionally bad translators. The best literary work in the new testament as I can see is the Gospel of John. Then comes some of Paul's epistles and the gospel of Luke. Though none of it is really close to the grandness of what I find in old testament Books like Isaiah and Job
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #78 on: July 02, 2017, 10:03:20 PM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
I dont. I confess that Perhaps it is better in that language. But at the same time almost everyone says God's Word is infallible, that it is all inspired etc. Of Course the writers were inspired. Infallible? Hardly. If so, then lsnguage wouldnt matter because God would make sure all translations were perfect. Or no? One must know koine greek and hebrew? Then perhaps the pope (even though he spoke and read latin) had a point when he forbade common man to read the scriptures.

You know what you call a person who insults someone or something he doesn't understand or know?
Did I insult You? It was not my intention. I apologize if you felt insulted. But what does one call someone like that? Or did you mean I insulted the bible because I Said I dont Believe it infallible? If I MUST Believe it infallible in order to live eternally than I would prefer eternal death. I dont accept that God ordered the slaughters of all those women and Children in the old testament (in Joshua)
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #79 on: July 02, 2017, 10:04:29 PM »
Thank you. And the claim that the Gospel of John can hardly put a sentence together? Granted it's the book with the smallest vocabulary in Greek literature, but that's not the same thing. And most of your claims have been sweeping, that the Bible comprises no mercy or goodness or reason no matter how you search ... I'm not sure how you'd cite such universals, but some attempt at showing you speak in good faith would be in order. I'm blown away thinking what gall it must take to refer to your spiritual forbears as wretches, worthless, pure evil, and so on. I'm astounded that you'd expect anyone to hear you seriously and not assume you are motivated by juvenile malice to humiliate your fellow-posters. Worst, I'm afraid someone ignorant enough might believe you. All this could be partly remedied if you'd make some references to a book or a chapter when you speak.
Also, the bible has tons of messages about mercy and forgiveness. Especially the gospels  (most of all Luke I would say). I have never Said anything about that not being true. But the combination of that with doctrines like predestination, election, foreknowledge, sovereignty, creation ex nihilo, eternal damnation in a lake of fire etc. Just makes it sort of "God is standing with a pistol" kind of situation to me

Yeah yeah you'll retreat to this kind of minimal criticism when you're confronted, and then an hour later you'll start a new thread saying you searched the Bible with tears and could find only the vilest sacrilege therein etc. etc. Look we have our share of self-obsessed posters, but not that many of them make the Holy Trinity their White Whale. You can't expect nods and smiles.
...
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #80 on: July 02, 2017, 10:08:38 PM »
Thank you. And the claim that the Gospel of John can hardly put a sentence together? Granted it's the book with the smallest vocabulary in Greek literature, but that's not the same thing. And most of your claims have been sweeping, that the Bible comprises no mercy or goodness or reason no matter how you search ... I'm not sure how you'd cite such universals, but some attempt at showing you speak in good faith would be in order. I'm blown away thinking what gall it must take to refer to your spiritual forbears as wretches, worthless, pure evil, and so on. I'm astounded that you'd expect anyone to hear you seriously and not assume you are motivated by juvenile malice to humiliate your fellow-posters. Worst, I'm afraid someone ignorant enough might believe you. All this could be partly remedied if you'd make some references to a book or a chapter when you speak.
NO! The gospel of John CAN! I praised the gospel of John. I Said the Book of revelation seems to be written by someone who just learned how to spell. I dont understand what you mean about the rest? Believe me about what?

The Revelation is one of the densest, most profound works of poetry ever to fall from a pen. Some modern scholars may abuse Evangelists Mark and John's Greek as simple, but the Revelation is a tour du force. The poetic idiom of the rightly-famed Hebrew prophets was brought alive in Koine.
Hmm... Then Swedes are exceptionally bad translators. The best literary work in the new testament as I can see is the Gospel of John. Then comes some of Paul's epistles and the gospel of Luke. Though none of it is really close to the grandness of what I find in old testament Books like Isaiah and Job

You'll get no argument from me there. The literary style of Gospel of John is pellucid and purely beautiful. It literally has no match or comparison. Yet it has borne its share of critical contempt. And then I'm not the one calling a Saint who wrote inspired scripture a caveman.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #81 on: July 02, 2017, 10:59:08 PM »
If I MUST Believe it infallible in order to live eternally than I would prefer eternal death.

This would be an example of the speaking without understanding that others have pointed out.

Regardless of how you feel about God, the Old Testament, faith, etc., stating "If X in order to live eternally, then I would prefer eternal death," demonstrates a remarkable lack of imagination regarding what "eternal death" truly means.  I wouldn't wish Eternal Death on anyone - not even the worst genocidal maniacs of the 20th century.
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #82 on: July 03, 2017, 12:14:52 AM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
I dont. I confess that Perhaps it is better in that language. But at the same time almost everyone says God's Word is infallible, that it is all inspired etc. Of Course the writers were inspired. Infallible? Hardly. If so, then lsnguage wouldnt matter because God would make sure all translations were perfect. Or no? One must know koine greek and hebrew? Then perhaps the pope (even though he spoke and read latin) had a point when he forbade common man to read the scriptures.

You know what you call a person who insults someone or something he doesn't understand or know?
But what does one call someone like that?

Immature among other things
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #83 on: July 03, 2017, 04:26:26 AM »
If I MUST Believe it infallible in order to live eternally than I would prefer eternal death.

This would be an example of the speaking without understanding that others have pointed out.

Regardless of how you feel about God, the Old Testament, faith, etc., stating "If X in order to live eternally, then I would prefer eternal death," demonstrates a remarkable lack of imagination regarding what "eternal death" truly means.  I wouldn't wish Eternal Death on anyone - not even the worst genocidal maniacs of the 20th century.
Oh believe me, I have no lack of imagination there. But I am freaking TIRED of imagining it. I would rather kill myself. But it is good that you want nobody there, then we are two. And if anybody ends up there eternally... If Christ really closes a door forever, casting someone in to a burning fire that never ends and gets offended by some unforgivable sin that no one understands what it really is, then I consider saying no to heaven as well. I rather believe 98 percent or so of all christians completely lack imagination of what hell means, plus lack of an eternal quality of all those virtues they praise(except vengeance, wrath and what they pretend to be justice), otherwise they would see that the idea of eternal hellfire is unacceptable, cruel, and insane. Absolutely indefensible. BTW, why didnt any of the pharisees ask Christ about all the slaughters of women and children he comitted according to OT? That would have been my first question to him. And also, no one has actually still not answered; 1. How can God create something he foreknows will suffer forever? I mean, what God foreknows, he also wills. 2. How can God then even punish someone in such a way as eternal hell in a lake of fire when not one single human have even asked about being brought Into existence? Why do I need to praise God for life when I haven't asked for life? The conditions are horrible IMO and had I known them before being brought into existence I would have prefered to say no to all existence If I had the chance. You know what? Perhaps one does know. Perhaps that is why children scream and cry at birth(how a christian has the courage to have children is also beyond my understanding and seems like another example of the lack of imagination among christians when it comes to eternal hell in that fire). The idea and existence of eternal hell for ANY creature foreknown by God, makes creation an offence and a crimimal act as I see it, and I would really like it if anyone could actually give me a rational answer to the questions I posted here. BTW many christians like to call the holocaust divine punishment. And when reading scripture I can understand why they make such a conclusion. It also seems the apostle Paul would have said that Hitler served God, sense government etc is ordained by God. Personally I believe NO ONE has enough understanding about God for them to have no excuse so to that level that they deserve eternal torture on judgement day.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 04:29:34 AM by beebert »
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #84 on: July 03, 2017, 04:32:34 AM »
Thank you. And the claim that the Gospel of John can hardly put a sentence together? Granted it's the book with the smallest vocabulary in Greek literature, but that's not the same thing. And most of your claims have been sweeping, that the Bible comprises no mercy or goodness or reason no matter how you search ... I'm not sure how you'd cite such universals, but some attempt at showing you speak in good faith would be in order. I'm blown away thinking what gall it must take to refer to your spiritual forbears as wretches, worthless, pure evil, and so on. I'm astounded that you'd expect anyone to hear you seriously and not assume you are motivated by juvenile malice to humiliate your fellow-posters. Worst, I'm afraid someone ignorant enough might believe you. All this could be partly remedied if you'd make some references to a book or a chapter when you speak.
NO! The gospel of John CAN! I praised the gospel of John. I Said the Book of revelation seems to be written by someone who just learned how to spell. I dont understand what you mean about the rest? Believe me about what?

The Revelation is one of the densest, most profound works of poetry ever to fall from a pen. Some modern scholars may abuse Evangelists Mark and John's Greek as simple, but the Revelation is a tour du force. The poetic idiom of the rightly-famed Hebrew prophets was brought alive in Koine.
Hmm... Then Swedes are exceptionally bad translators. The best literary work in the new testament as I can see is the Gospel of John. Then comes some of Paul's epistles and the gospel of Luke. Though none of it is really close to the grandness of what I find in old testament Books like Isaiah and Job

You'll get no argument from me there. The literary style of Gospel of John is pellucid and purely beautiful. It literally has no match or comparison. Yet it has borne its share of critical contempt. And then I'm not the one calling a Saint who wrote inspired scripture a caveman.
So then we agree? But why did you first say that the gospel of John was not the same.quality of writing as the other gospels?
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #85 on: July 03, 2017, 04:44:26 AM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
I dont. I confess that Perhaps it is better in that language. But at the same time almost everyone says God's Word is infallible, that it is all inspired etc. Of Course the writers were inspired. Infallible? Hardly. If so, then lsnguage wouldnt matter because God would make sure all translations were perfect. Or no? One must know koine greek and hebrew? Then perhaps the pope (even though he spoke and read latin) had a point when he forbade common man to read the scriptures.

You know what you call a person who insults someone or something he doesn't understand or know?
But what does one call someone like that?

Immature among other things
Hey. It is the bible and its followers who claim to be in possesion of the truth. In that book, hell is mentioned qute often. So is predestination, election etc. Is it different in koine greek? If I can't comment on a book that claims to be the truth because I dont know koine greek, especially when wrong understanding of that book and any disobedience to it(where is the line drawn between fatal disobedience and non-fatal? Is it fatal to dislike almost half of the books, among them the Book of revelation?)has the most fatal consequences ever imagined, then boy are we all in trouble.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 04:50:00 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Agabus

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #86 on: July 03, 2017, 10:48:07 AM »
The divine mandate for castes and wars as narrated by a god on the cusp of exterminating an arbitrary half of an ancient and noble clan inspires you, but the Book in which a god spends his short life teaching forgiveness and gives his very life for his friends fills you with loathing. Got it.

At this point all I'd ask is you start citing your claims about Holy Scripture, as you've spent weeks here making assertions and characterizations about its content without one reference, and I can assure your readers these are far, far from being accurate. I think just to protect yourself from assumptions of libel you'll want to start to cite.
I Believe the apostles distorted Christ's message Into a message of hopelessness and bad news for the majority of mankind. Especially Paul who started to theologize and interpet things almost like a dogmatician. I compared the baghavad gita btw to the bloody war parts of the bible, and Said that the gita is much more profound there. I mean, comparing it to revelation of John for example. It seems ironic that both the gospel of John and the revelation were by an author named John, and even more ironic that the early church thought it was the same author, even though one has a Good and sophisticated Language while the other one writes as if he had just learned how to spell. Also, one has a message of love and faith,  the other one a message of revenge and hate. Did John start to become bitter, or were they two different authors? I dislike the fact that as a 'Christian', I am not aloud to dislike anything in the old testament. I MUST revere Paul, Peter, John and John, James, Moses, Joshua, etc. While in my heart I am thinking: "An immortal John of Patmos... Who would endure that?"

Do you ask me to quote scripture? What for? To prove I have read it? Which parts shall I quote?

So you feel you should call our saints demons and retards without the slightest obligation to show it by citations?
My bible is in swedish so give me a minute to look up in English. I didnt call them demons. Retards to some extent maybe though. I don't venerate them, that is for sure Imagine: If John of Patmos, that blood thirsty and bitter little cave man, will judge the world (Paul says the saints will judge the world! Aha! Great moment for revenge!), who will be saved?

You may discuss any issues you have with a given saint, but you must do so without insulting them.
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #87 on: July 03, 2017, 11:20:22 AM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
I dont. I confess that Perhaps it is better in that language. But at the same time almost everyone says God's Word is infallible, that it is all inspired etc. Of Course the writers were inspired. Infallible? Hardly. If so, then lsnguage wouldnt matter because God would make sure all translations were perfect. Or no? One must know koine greek and hebrew? Then perhaps the pope (even though he spoke and read latin) had a point when he forbade common man to read the scriptures.

You know what you call a person who insults someone or something he doesn't understand or know?
But what does one call someone like that?

Immature among other things
Hey. It is the bible and its followers who claim to be in possesion of the truth. In that book, hell is mentioned qute often. So is predestination, election etc. Is it different in koine greek? If I can't comment on a book that claims to be the truth because I dont know koine greek, especially when wrong understanding of that book and any disobedience to it(where is the line drawn between fatal disobedience and non-fatal? Is it fatal to dislike almost half of the books, among them the Book of revelation?)has the most fatal consequences ever imagined, then boy are we all in trouble.

No! We already answered those questions for you. You are too stubborn to accept them and you prefer your own reading of things.  You refuse to take good advise from time to time from many people and continue to be obsessive with the same crap you keep reproducing in your posts that have already been refuted.  You need to shup up and start listening to what people tell you.  Grow up and shut up for once in your life.  You may have read a lot, but you're still immature and ignorant.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #88 on: July 03, 2017, 11:52:40 AM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
I dont. I confess that Perhaps it is better in that language. But at the same time almost everyone says God's Word is infallible, that it is all inspired etc. Of Course the writers were inspired. Infallible? Hardly. If so, then lsnguage wouldnt matter because God would make sure all translations were perfect. Or no? One must know koine greek and hebrew? Then perhaps the pope (even though he spoke and read latin) had a point when he forbade common man to read the scriptures.

You know what you call a person who insults someone or something he doesn't understand or know?
But what does one call someone like that?

Immature among other things
Hey. It is the bible and its followers who claim to be in possesion of the truth. In that book, hell is mentioned qute often. So is predestination, election etc. Is it different in koine greek? If I can't comment on a book that claims to be the truth because I dont know koine greek, especially when wrong understanding of that book and any disobedience to it(where is the line drawn between fatal disobedience and non-fatal? Is it fatal to dislike almost half of the books, among them the Book of revelation?)has the most fatal consequences ever imagined, then boy are we all in trouble.

No! We already answered those questions for you. You are too stubborn to accept them and you prefer your own reading of things.  You refuse to take good advise from time to time from many people and continue to be obsessive with the same crap you keep reproducing in your posts that have already been refuted.  You need to shut up and start listening to what people tell you.  Grow up and shut up for once in your life.  You may have read a lot, but you're still immature and ignorant.
Okay okay I will shut up. But please tell me one last thing; what is meant with foreknowledge, predestination and election? If you combine that with an omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent God I unfortunately find it IMPOSSIBLE to understand that it can mean anything else than that God knows my destiny but decides to for some reason create me anyway. Honestly, to not call it double predestination is sort of dishonest if you take the meaning of all those terms mentioned to its actual meaning and combine them... So please. Tell me WHERE my thinking is wrong. What is false? In what sense is it false that God predestines, elects and foreknows as an omniscient and omnipotent being, when scripture clearly seems to suggest it? I once read an official orthodox refutation of calvinism, a council in Jerusalem. There they condemned calvinism for saying that God decrees and actively decides to damn the lost, when in reality according to them, he foreknew they were going to misuse their free will and be damned, and therefore he predestined them to hell. Honestly, to me that is the same thing. So what is it that is wrong with my thinking? Is what was stated in the that council in Jerusalem orthodox teaching?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 11:56:08 AM by beebert »
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #89 on: July 03, 2017, 12:01:06 PM »
It is a state of His eternity.  He foreknows, just as He is extra-powerful.  In other words, His knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend or describe, just as His power is likewise.  In short, His being is just being described.  But we don't presume to know what He knows because we can't.  For that we have another term: providence.  We trust His Providence, and we trust His love towards us.  That's it.

What happens in the end where someone goes or how someone judges, we don't know, and we don't presume to know God's foreknowledge of these events.  We don't even know what "foreknowledge" really is.  But we honor Him for that.

So: don't presume you think you know what He knows.  Just do your part in your own salvation and those around you. That's the whole idea behind "foreknowledge".  For you to obsess to try to understand what that means makes you want to be equal to God, which is impossible and will drive you insane.

If you try to twist your own logic into "Calvinism" vs "semi-Calvinism", you're doing yourself a disfavor.  Many of us have learned to shut up before the glory of Christ.  You can do the same.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 12:02:49 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #90 on: July 03, 2017, 12:06:57 PM »
I want you to be conscious of something in yourself. It seems when I tell you to not obsess over an anti-Orthodox Calvinist preacher, you directed your frustration towards the New Testament writers themselves!  Consider how you are displacing your anger.  That's an immature defense mechanism.  Rather, learn to do charitable work to vent your frustrations.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #91 on: July 03, 2017, 12:16:21 PM »
It is a state of His eternity.  He foreknows, just as He is extra-powerful.  In other words, His knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend or describe, just as His power is likewise.  In short, His being is just being described.  But we don't presume to know what He knows because we can't.  For that we have another term: providence.  We trust His Providence, and we trust His love towards us.  That's it.

What happens in the end where someone goes or how someone judges, we don't know, and we don't presume to know God's foreknowledge of these events.  We don't even know what "foreknowledge" really is.  But we honor Him for that.

So: don't presume you think you know what He knows.  Just do your part in your own salvation and those around you. That's the whole idea behind "foreknowledge".  For you to obsess to try to understand what that means makes you want to be equal to God, which is impossible and will drive you insane.

If you try to twist your own logic into "Calvinism" vs "semi-Calvinism", you're doing yourself a disfavor.  Many of us have learned to shut up before the glory of Christ.  You can do the same.
Okay. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it. I will shut up from now and stop talking about things I don't know. One last question though; it sort of makes me confused what you are saying in a way, even if I like your expression of things. Because, how can we then "know" there is even going to be a judgement? I mean, did the apostle Paul understand what he was talking about when he spoke about predestination etc. or was he just speculating or interpreting things from his own limited understanding?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 12:16:41 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #92 on: July 03, 2017, 12:17:33 PM »
I want you to be conscious of something in yourself. It seems when I tell you to not obsess over an anti-Orthodox Calvinist preacher, you directed your frustration towards the New Testament writers themselves!  Consider how you are displacing your anger.  That's an immature defense mechanism.  Rather, learn to do charitable work to vent your frustrations.
Thanks. I apologize. And I confess. I am exceptionally angry at all those people that I would call "religious oppressors". I don't count the apostles there. I guess I try to find the reason for all this hatred and bigotry and oppression that can be found among so many who call themselves christians. And I look at the new testament and have had a tendency to find the answers there sort of. What the new testament often teaches if one reads the actual letter, have seemed to me to be what calvinists like MacArthur teaches. And it makes me angry, yes.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 12:23:22 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #93 on: July 03, 2017, 12:34:35 PM »
It is a state of His eternity.  He foreknows, just as He is extra-powerful.  In other words, His knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend or describe, just as His power is likewise.  In short, His being is just being described.  But we don't presume to know what He knows because we can't.  For that we have another term: providence.  We trust His Providence, and we trust His love towards us.  That's it.

What happens in the end where someone goes or how someone judges, we don't know, and we don't presume to know God's foreknowledge of these events.  We don't even know what "foreknowledge" really is.  But we honor Him for that.

So: don't presume you think you know what He knows.  Just do your part in your own salvation and those around you. That's the whole idea behind "foreknowledge".  For you to obsess to try to understand what that means makes you want to be equal to God, which is impossible and will drive you insane.

If you try to twist your own logic into "Calvinism" vs "semi-Calvinism", you're doing yourself a disfavor.  Many of us have learned to shut up before the glory of Christ.  You can do the same.
Okay. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it. I will shut up from now and stop talking about things I don't know. One last question though; it sort of makes me confused what you are saying in a way, even if I like your expression of things. Because, how can we then "know" there is even going to be a judgement? I mean, did the apostle Paul understand what he was talking about when he spoke about predestination etc. or was he just speculating or interpreting things from his own limited understanding?

We believe the words of St. Paul regarding resurrection, Judgment, the relationship of man and God, and so forth, to be divinely inspired. This means that the Holy Spirit, and not the mortal man himself, conveyed to us these important teachings. Where would humankind be if we were left to our "own limited understanding"? The things of God are inexplicable, but it pleases him to give his children what knowledge we can use. But with that I mis-phrase, as it is not so much a matter of knowledge as of bearings for our soul. The things we hear read in the Church and the things we do and see in her divine worship all serve to give our souls direction; some of this is conscious knowledge and much is unconscious understanding.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 12:35:56 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #94 on: July 03, 2017, 12:38:58 PM »
Okay okay I will shut up. But please tell me one last thing; what is meant with foreknowledge, predestination and election? If you combine that with an omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent God I unfortunately find it IMPOSSIBLE to understand that it can mean anything else than that God knows my destiny but decides to for some reason create me anyway. ...

His intentions in creating you were to save you and adopt you, nothing else. And that you would then become his companion in good work (beautiful work, as St. Paul sometimes puts it) and ultimately in eternal bliss.

It's curious to me that the same Beebert that becomes so (in your words) angry that God would create someone who might doom himself also becomes so vocal about "freedom" in threads in these forums and how free will is among the highest goods of man.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 12:43:49 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #95 on: July 03, 2017, 12:39:54 PM »
You can be those wonderful things but then it might be hypocritical.
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #96 on: July 03, 2017, 12:44:04 PM »
It is a state of His eternity.  He foreknows, just as He is extra-powerful.  In other words, His knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend or describe, just as His power is likewise.  In short, His being is just being described.  But we don't presume to know what He knows because we can't.  For that we have another term: providence.  We trust His Providence, and we trust His love towards us.  That's it.

What happens in the end where someone goes or how someone judges, we don't know, and we don't presume to know God's foreknowledge of these events.  We don't even know what "foreknowledge" really is.  But we honor Him for that.

So: don't presume you think you know what He knows.  Just do your part in your own salvation and those around you. That's the whole idea behind "foreknowledge".  For you to obsess to try to understand what that means makes you want to be equal to God, which is impossible and will drive you insane.

If you try to twist your own logic into "Calvinism" vs "semi-Calvinism", you're doing yourself a disfavor.  Many of us have learned to shut up before the glory of Christ.  You can do the same.
Okay. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it. I will shut up from now and stop talking about things I don't know. One last question though; it sort of makes me confused what you are saying in a way, even if I like your expression of things. Because, how can we then "know" there is even going to be a judgement? I mean, did the apostle Paul understand what he was talking about when he spoke about predestination etc. or was he just speculating or interpreting things from his own limited understanding?

We believe the words of St. Paul regarding resurrection, Judgment, the relationship of man and God, and so forth, to be divinely inspired. This means that the Holy Spirit, and not the mortal man himself, conveyed to us these important teachings. Where would humankind be if we were left to our "own limited understanding"? The things of God are inexplicable, but it pleases him to give his children what knowledge we can use. But with that I mis-phrase, as it is not so much a matter of knowledge as of bearings for our soul. The things we hear read in the Church and the things we do and see in her divine worship all serve to give our souls direction; some of this is conscious knowledge and much is unconscious understanding.
I understand. I accept that view I guess. But, did Paul get everything right? Is the bible infallible? I mean, cultures changes... He still used a language that stood in relation to the understandings of his cultures. He might have expressed a truth through the means he could, but is it the best way to express it today, if you understand what I mean?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #97 on: July 03, 2017, 12:45:53 PM »
It is a state of His eternity.  He foreknows, just as He is extra-powerful.  In other words, His knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend or describe, just as His power is likewise.  In short, His being is just being described.  But we don't presume to know what He knows because we can't.  For that we have another term: providence.  We trust His Providence, and we trust His love towards us.  That's it.

What happens in the end where someone goes or how someone judges, we don't know, and we don't presume to know God's foreknowledge of these events.  We don't even know what "foreknowledge" really is.  But we honor Him for that.

So: don't presume you think you know what He knows.  Just do your part in your own salvation and those around you. That's the whole idea behind "foreknowledge".  For you to obsess to try to understand what that means makes you want to be equal to God, which is impossible and will drive you insane.

If you try to twist your own logic into "Calvinism" vs "semi-Calvinism", you're doing yourself a disfavor.  Many of us have learned to shut up before the glory of Christ.  You can do the same.
Okay. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it. I will shut up from now and stop talking about things I don't know. One last question though; it sort of makes me confused what you are saying in a way, even if I like your expression of things. Because, how can we then "know" there is even going to be a judgement? I mean, did the apostle Paul understand what he was talking about when he spoke about predestination etc. or was he just speculating or interpreting things from his own limited understanding?

Christ told us there will be a judgment.  But that doesn't mean Christ told us there will be those He chose to condemn or to save.  He never said that and neither did St. Paul.  Paul pretty much said we are all destined to be saved, justified and glorified.  The destiny was before all time, in eternity: "predestines".  What we choose to do with our "predestiny" therefore is what will judge us.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #98 on: July 03, 2017, 12:46:55 PM »
It is a state of His eternity.  He foreknows, just as He is extra-powerful.  In other words, His knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend or describe, just as His power is likewise.  In short, His being is just being described.  But we don't presume to know what He knows because we can't.  For that we have another term: providence.  We trust His Providence, and we trust His love towards us.  That's it.

What happens in the end where someone goes or how someone judges, we don't know, and we don't presume to know God's foreknowledge of these events.  We don't even know what "foreknowledge" really is.  But we honor Him for that.

So: don't presume you think you know what He knows.  Just do your part in your own salvation and those around you. That's the whole idea behind "foreknowledge".  For you to obsess to try to understand what that means makes you want to be equal to God, which is impossible and will drive you insane.

If you try to twist your own logic into "Calvinism" vs "semi-Calvinism", you're doing yourself a disfavor.  Many of us have learned to shut up before the glory of Christ.  You can do the same.
Okay. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it. I will shut up from now and stop talking about things I don't know. One last question though; it sort of makes me confused what you are saying in a way, even if I like your expression of things. Because, how can we then "know" there is even going to be a judgement? I mean, did the apostle Paul understand what he was talking about when he spoke about predestination etc. or was he just speculating or interpreting things from his own limited understanding?

We believe the words of St. Paul regarding resurrection, Judgment, the relationship of man and God, and so forth, to be divinely inspired. This means that the Holy Spirit, and not the mortal man himself, conveyed to us these important teachings. Where would humankind be if we were left to our "own limited understanding"? The things of God are inexplicable, but it pleases him to give his children what knowledge we can use. But with that I mis-phrase, as it is not so much a matter of knowledge as of bearings for our soul. The things we hear read in the Church and the things we do and see in her divine worship all serve to give our souls direction; some of this is conscious knowledge and much is unconscious understanding.
I understand. I accept that view I guess. But, did Paul get everything right? Is the bible infallible? I mean, cultures changes... He still used a language that stood in relation to the understandings of his cultures. He might have expressed a truth through the means he could, but is it the best way to express it today, if you understand what I mean?

His words do not have to stand alone to bear all that weight you're assigning them, because the Word is a living being and the head of a living Church.

I could comment on how you tend to throw these extreme challenges out that seem largely unrelated to your original thoughts -- "Is the Bible infallible?" &c. -- but perhaps that is just how your mind tends to work. I don't know.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #99 on: July 03, 2017, 12:51:05 PM »
Okay okay I will shut up. But please tell me one last thing; what is meant with foreknowledge, predestination and election? If you combine that with an omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent God I unfortunately find it IMPOSSIBLE to understand that it can mean anything else than that God knows my destiny but decides to for some reason create me anyway. ...

His intentions in creating you were to save you and adopt you, nothing else. And that you would then become his companion in good work (beautiful work, as St. Paul sometimes puts it) and ultimately in eternal bliss.

It's curious to me that the same Beebert that becomes so (in your words) angry that God would create someone who might doom himself also becomes so vocal about "freedom" in threads in these forums and how free will is among the highest goods of man.
But if he foreknew my fate would be something else than salvation and adoption, and he still created me, how does that work together?

Hm... Yes well, it bothers me that he creates people who "doom themselves"(but once again the bible I read says that God dooms them as far as I understand it, but I am probably wrong I guess) because he knew beforehand apparently that they would(or once again, that is what I have understood is not orthodox theology and can be found in Paul's letters). I doubt that one has free will... It depends on what one means by that. It can never be completely free, it is certainly divided. But I do believe that we have the possibility to make choices in the sense that I can choose now to go and take ice cream etc... I could force myself to pray. So I am free to force myself. But perhaps I still don't WANT to pray, so my will is somewhere else. That is what I mean by divided will. It is free in the sense that I can now choose to pray, but it is unfree in the sense that I perhaps don't want to even when I do it. But that is not really freedom. I praise freedom, but that is something else. The closest I have been to experience true freedom is when I create, make and play music etc. I guess that those who feel that Christ have accepted them feel free. But I don't feel accepted. Even less so when reading scripture. And what terrifies me more is that others too are not accepted. I would find it hard even to be accepted and then walk around on earth thinking that the majority are not and are in sincere danger of hell. If one uses logic and reason(which of course are both fallible), then approximately 100 000/day go to hell if you truly believe in hell and that most people go there(wide is the gate etc)... And that drives me insane. Even 1 person a day could drive me insane
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 01:01:39 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #100 on: July 03, 2017, 12:52:50 PM »
It is a state of His eternity.  He foreknows, just as He is extra-powerful.  In other words, His knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend or describe, just as His power is likewise.  In short, His being is just being described.  But we don't presume to know what He knows because we can't.  For that we have another term: providence.  We trust His Providence, and we trust His love towards us.  That's it.

What happens in the end where someone goes or how someone judges, we don't know, and we don't presume to know God's foreknowledge of these events.  We don't even know what "foreknowledge" really is.  But we honor Him for that.

So: don't presume you think you know what He knows.  Just do your part in your own salvation and those around you. That's the whole idea behind "foreknowledge".  For you to obsess to try to understand what that means makes you want to be equal to God, which is impossible and will drive you insane.

If you try to twist your own logic into "Calvinism" vs "semi-Calvinism", you're doing yourself a disfavor.  Many of us have learned to shut up before the glory of Christ.  You can do the same.
Okay. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it. I will shut up from now and stop talking about things I don't know. One last question though; it sort of makes me confused what you are saying in a way, even if I like your expression of things. Because, how can we then "know" there is even going to be a judgement? I mean, did the apostle Paul understand what he was talking about when he spoke about predestination etc. or was he just speculating or interpreting things from his own limited understanding?

Christ told us there will be a judgment.  But that doesn't mean Christ told us there will be those He chose to condemn or to save.  He never said that and neither did St. Paul.  Paul pretty much said we are all destined to be saved, justified and glorified.  The destiny was before all time, in eternity: "predestines".  What we choose to do with our "predestiny" therefore is what will judge us.
Hmm... Is that what Paul said? Could you provide me with references if you want? I would appreciate it, because that view sounds much better.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #101 on: July 03, 2017, 12:58:04 PM »
It is a state of His eternity.  He foreknows, just as He is extra-powerful.  In other words, His knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend or describe, just as His power is likewise.  In short, His being is just being described.  But we don't presume to know what He knows because we can't.  For that we have another term: providence.  We trust His Providence, and we trust His love towards us.  That's it.

What happens in the end where someone goes or how someone judges, we don't know, and we don't presume to know God's foreknowledge of these events.  We don't even know what "foreknowledge" really is.  But we honor Him for that.

So: don't presume you think you know what He knows.  Just do your part in your own salvation and those around you. That's the whole idea behind "foreknowledge".  For you to obsess to try to understand what that means makes you want to be equal to God, which is impossible and will drive you insane.

If you try to twist your own logic into "Calvinism" vs "semi-Calvinism", you're doing yourself a disfavor.  Many of us have learned to shut up before the glory of Christ.  You can do the same.
Okay. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it. I will shut up from now and stop talking about things I don't know. One last question though; it sort of makes me confused what you are saying in a way, even if I like your expression of things. Because, how can we then "know" there is even going to be a judgement? I mean, did the apostle Paul understand what he was talking about when he spoke about predestination etc. or was he just speculating or interpreting things from his own limited understanding?

We believe the words of St. Paul regarding resurrection, Judgment, the relationship of man and God, and so forth, to be divinely inspired. This means that the Holy Spirit, and not the mortal man himself, conveyed to us these important teachings. Where would humankind be if we were left to our "own limited understanding"? The things of God are inexplicable, but it pleases him to give his children what knowledge we can use. But with that I mis-phrase, as it is not so much a matter of knowledge as of bearings for our soul. The things we hear read in the Church and the things we do and see in her divine worship all serve to give our souls direction; some of this is conscious knowledge and much is unconscious understanding.
I understand. I accept that view I guess. But, did Paul get everything right? Is the bible infallible? I mean, cultures changes... He still used a language that stood in relation to the understandings of his cultures. He might have expressed a truth through the means he could, but is it the best way to express it today, if you understand what I mean?

His words do not have to stand alone to bear all that weight you're assigning them, because the Word is a living being and the head of a living Church.

I could comment on how you tend to throw these extreme challenges out that seem largely unrelated to your original thoughts -- "Is the Bible infallible?" &c. -- but perhaps that is just how your mind tends to work. I don't know.
In what sense I mean does the bible speak an eternal truth? When Paul speaks about God's wrath and vengeance, I really do believe that he pictured it as a God who was literally angry and was going to actively punish people. Since then, many orthodox theologians of today have followed Isaac the Syrians thought, who said basically that hell and heaven is the same place, that God pours out his love equally to all but that some will judge themselves and therefore can not stand that presence and it becomes a tormenting experience. That might be true, but I believe it contradicts the bible. So... in what sense is the bible infallible? That is what I meant. Because I believe Paul had a true experience and a true revelation of God that he shared and spread, and the language he used was the language he was capable of using considering the tradition and culture he lived in and was surrounded and effected by. But today, perhaps we have better words to use in order to describe God's mysteries?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 01:02:43 PM by beebert »
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #102 on: July 03, 2017, 01:04:13 PM »
It is a state of His eternity.  He foreknows, just as He is extra-powerful.  In other words, His knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend or describe, just as His power is likewise.  In short, His being is just being described.  But we don't presume to know what He knows because we can't.  For that we have another term: providence.  We trust His Providence, and we trust His love towards us.  That's it.

What happens in the end where someone goes or how someone judges, we don't know, and we don't presume to know God's foreknowledge of these events.  We don't even know what "foreknowledge" really is.  But we honor Him for that.

So: don't presume you think you know what He knows.  Just do your part in your own salvation and those around you. That's the whole idea behind "foreknowledge".  For you to obsess to try to understand what that means makes you want to be equal to God, which is impossible and will drive you insane.

If you try to twist your own logic into "Calvinism" vs "semi-Calvinism", you're doing yourself a disfavor.  Many of us have learned to shut up before the glory of Christ.  You can do the same.
Okay. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it. I will shut up from now and stop talking about things I don't know. One last question though; it sort of makes me confused what you are saying in a way, even if I like your expression of things. Because, how can we then "know" there is even going to be a judgement? I mean, did the apostle Paul understand what he was talking about when he spoke about predestination etc. or was he just speculating or interpreting things from his own limited understanding?

Christ told us there will be a judgment.  But that doesn't mean Christ told us there will be those He chose to condemn or to save.  He never said that and neither did St. Paul.  Paul pretty much said we are all destined to be saved, justified and glorified.  The destiny was before all time, in eternity: "predestines".  What we choose to do with our "predestiny" therefore is what will judge us.
Hmm... Is that what Paul said? Could you provide me with references if you want? I would appreciate it, because that view sounds much better.

"Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to ALL men, resulting in justification of life." (Romans 5:18)
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #103 on: July 03, 2017, 01:08:54 PM »
It is a state of His eternity.  He foreknows, just as He is extra-powerful.  In other words, His knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend or describe, just as His power is likewise.  In short, His being is just being described.  But we don't presume to know what He knows because we can't.  For that we have another term: providence.  We trust His Providence, and we trust His love towards us.  That's it.

What happens in the end where someone goes or how someone judges, we don't know, and we don't presume to know God's foreknowledge of these events.  We don't even know what "foreknowledge" really is.  But we honor Him for that.

So: don't presume you think you know what He knows.  Just do your part in your own salvation and those around you. That's the whole idea behind "foreknowledge".  For you to obsess to try to understand what that means makes you want to be equal to God, which is impossible and will drive you insane.

If you try to twist your own logic into "Calvinism" vs "semi-Calvinism", you're doing yourself a disfavor.  Many of us have learned to shut up before the glory of Christ.  You can do the same.
Okay. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it. I will shut up from now and stop talking about things I don't know. One last question though; it sort of makes me confused what you are saying in a way, even if I like your expression of things. Because, how can we then "know" there is even going to be a judgement? I mean, did the apostle Paul understand what he was talking about when he spoke about predestination etc. or was he just speculating or interpreting things from his own limited understanding?

Christ told us there will be a judgment.  But that doesn't mean Christ told us there will be those He chose to condemn or to save.  He never said that and neither did St. Paul.  Paul pretty much said we are all destined to be saved, justified and glorified.  The destiny was before all time, in eternity: "predestines".  What we choose to do with our "predestiny" therefore is what will judge us.
Hmm... Is that what Paul said? Could you provide me with references if you want? I would appreciate it, because that view sounds much better.

"Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to ALL men, resulting in justification of life." (Romans 5:18)
Yes that is true, and I like that passage and have read it before. Thanks. But my mind has always wrapped that passage into the whole picture of God's omnipotence etc. and suddenly what Paul says seems to be "Those who are damned have no excuse". So this free gift from God becomes a great opportunity for God to make a righteous judgement and say "Look, here was the gift. You have no excuse" sort of... I know that sounds insane but you know. I can't get my head around it. I guess I must completely stop thinking about all these things all together. Perhaps even stop reading theology and the letters of Paul all together, as mor ephrem said a long time ago. But it seems dishonest to do that. The letters are there. I want to know what they really mean.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #104 on: July 03, 2017, 01:12:48 PM »
"No excuse" does not mean "no chance" but just the opposite. It means they in fact have every chance.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #105 on: July 03, 2017, 01:15:40 PM »
"No excuse" does not mean "no chance" but just the opposite. It means they in fact have every chance.
But... I know but it seems like he gave them a chance just in order to condemn them. Because if he was before the creation of the world, knew everything that was going to come to pass, created the world ex nihilo in accordance with his own will and then let things unfold just as he foreknew they would, how is that to have a chance?
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #106 on: July 03, 2017, 01:17:53 PM »
It is a state of His eternity.  He foreknows, just as He is extra-powerful.  In other words, His knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend or describe, just as His power is likewise.  In short, His being is just being described.  But we don't presume to know what He knows because we can't.  For that we have another term: providence.  We trust His Providence, and we trust His love towards us.  That's it.

What happens in the end where someone goes or how someone judges, we don't know, and we don't presume to know God's foreknowledge of these events.  We don't even know what "foreknowledge" really is.  But we honor Him for that.

So: don't presume you think you know what He knows.  Just do your part in your own salvation and those around you. That's the whole idea behind "foreknowledge".  For you to obsess to try to understand what that means makes you want to be equal to God, which is impossible and will drive you insane.

If you try to twist your own logic into "Calvinism" vs "semi-Calvinism", you're doing yourself a disfavor.  Many of us have learned to shut up before the glory of Christ.  You can do the same.
Okay. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it. I will shut up from now and stop talking about things I don't know. One last question though; it sort of makes me confused what you are saying in a way, even if I like your expression of things. Because, how can we then "know" there is even going to be a judgement? I mean, did the apostle Paul understand what he was talking about when he spoke about predestination etc. or was he just speculating or interpreting things from his own limited understanding?

Christ told us there will be a judgment.  But that doesn't mean Christ told us there will be those He chose to condemn or to save.  He never said that and neither did St. Paul.  Paul pretty much said we are all destined to be saved, justified and glorified.  The destiny was before all time, in eternity: "predestines".  What we choose to do with our "predestiny" therefore is what will judge us.
Hmm... Is that what Paul said? Could you provide me with references if you want? I would appreciate it, because that view sounds much better.

"Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to ALL men, resulting in justification of life." (Romans 5:18)
Yes that is true, and I like that passage and have read it before. Thanks. But my mind has always wrapped that passage into the whole picture of God's omnipotence etc. and suddenly what Paul says seems to be "Those who are damned have no excuse". So this free gift from God becomes a great opportunity for God to make a righteous judgement and say "Look, here was the gift. You have no excuse" sort of... I know that sounds insane but you know. I can't get my head around it. I guess I must completely stop thinking about all these things all together. Perhaps even stop reading theology and the letters of Paul all together, as mor ephrem said a long time ago. But it seems dishonest to do that. The letters are there. I want to know what they really mean.

I gave you a verse that shows Christ's justification and glorification is offered to ALL men.  So, now that I answered your question, it's your turn to be silent and listen and partake of the glory of Christ.  Learn to accept that you're wrong about Paul.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #107 on: July 03, 2017, 01:21:44 PM »
It is a state of His eternity.  He foreknows, just as He is extra-powerful.  In other words, His knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend or describe, just as His power is likewise.  In short, His being is just being described.  But we don't presume to know what He knows because we can't.  For that we have another term: providence.  We trust His Providence, and we trust His love towards us.  That's it.

What happens in the end where someone goes or how someone judges, we don't know, and we don't presume to know God's foreknowledge of these events.  We don't even know what "foreknowledge" really is.  But we honor Him for that.

So: don't presume you think you know what He knows.  Just do your part in your own salvation and those around you. That's the whole idea behind "foreknowledge".  For you to obsess to try to understand what that means makes you want to be equal to God, which is impossible and will drive you insane.

If you try to twist your own logic into "Calvinism" vs "semi-Calvinism", you're doing yourself a disfavor.  Many of us have learned to shut up before the glory of Christ.  You can do the same.
Okay. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it. I will shut up from now and stop talking about things I don't know. One last question though; it sort of makes me confused what you are saying in a way, even if I like your expression of things. Because, how can we then "know" there is even going to be a judgement? I mean, did the apostle Paul understand what he was talking about when he spoke about predestination etc. or was he just speculating or interpreting things from his own limited understanding?

Christ told us there will be a judgment.  But that doesn't mean Christ told us there will be those He chose to condemn or to save.  He never said that and neither did St. Paul.  Paul pretty much said we are all destined to be saved, justified and glorified.  The destiny was before all time, in eternity: "predestines".  What we choose to do with our "predestiny" therefore is what will judge us.
Hmm... Is that what Paul said? Could you provide me with references if you want? I would appreciate it, because that view sounds much better.

"Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to ALL men, resulting in justification of life." (Romans 5:18)
Yes that is true, and I like that passage and have read it before. Thanks. But my mind has always wrapped that passage into the whole picture of God's omnipotence etc. and suddenly what Paul says seems to be "Those who are damned have no excuse". So this free gift from God becomes a great opportunity for God to make a righteous judgement and say "Look, here was the gift. You have no excuse" sort of... I know that sounds insane but you know. I can't get my head around it. I guess I must completely stop thinking about all these things all together. Perhaps even stop reading theology and the letters of Paul all together, as mor ephrem said a long time ago. But it seems dishonest to do that. The letters are there. I want to know what they really mean.

I gave you a verse that shows Christ's justification and glorification is offered to ALL men.  So, now that I answered your question, it's your turn to be silent and listen and partake of the glory of Christ.  Learn to accept that you're wrong about Paul.
okay
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #108 on: July 03, 2017, 01:21:56 PM »
"No excuse" does not mean "no chance" but just the opposite. It means they in fact have every chance.
But... I know but it seems like he gave them a chance just in order to condemn them. ...

Pardon me, but how would that even work? Either one has a chance (in this case, many, many chances) or one has not. Do you believe God to be a liar or trickster?

Quote
Because if he was before the creation of the world, knew everything that was going to come to pass, created the world ex nihilo in accordance with his own will and then let things unfold just as he foreknew they would, how is that to have a chance?

Again, what is this non sequitur. He created a kosmos in which man "has a chance" and he created man to be his beloved companion. Yet to you this means he gave man no chances?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #109 on: July 03, 2017, 01:24:52 PM »
"No excuse" does not mean "no chance" but just the opposite. It means they in fact have every chance.
But... I know but it seems like he gave them a chance just in order to condemn them. ...

Pardon me, but how would that even work? Either one has a chance (in this case, many, many chances) or one has not. Do you believe God to be a liar or trickster?

Quote
Because if he was before the creation of the world, knew everything that was going to come to pass, created the world ex nihilo in accordance with his own will and then let things unfold just as he foreknew they would, how is that to have a chance?

Again, what is this non sequitur. He created a kosmos in which man "has a chance" and he created man to be his beloved companion. Yet to you this means he gave man no chances?
Perhaps you are right. Well. I must stop thinking about theology and focus on simpler matters
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #110 on: July 03, 2017, 01:31:29 PM »
"No excuse" does not mean "no chance" but just the opposite. It means they in fact have every chance.
But... I know but it seems like he gave them a chance just in order to condemn them. ...

Pardon me, but how would that even work? Either one has a chance (in this case, many, many chances) or one has not. Do you believe God to be a liar or trickster?

Quote
Because if he was before the creation of the world, knew everything that was going to come to pass, created the world ex nihilo in accordance with his own will and then let things unfold just as he foreknew they would, how is that to have a chance?

Again, what is this non sequitur. He created a kosmos in which man "has a chance" and he created man to be his beloved companion. Yet to you this means he gave man no chances?
Does man really have many many chances? I can't experience the existence of God whatsoever to start with. And when I read hebrews 6:4-6, 10:26-29(in fact, the whole hebrews seems to speak about this), the Shepherd of Hermas, etc. it seems like man really has one or two chances. Definitely not more than two. How am I now supposed to take a step where I can trust him? It seems like trusting empty air to me. Or forcing myself to trust a book. I mean. I could shout "I TRUST YOU I TRUST YOU! I BELIEVE YOU CHRIST!" all day long and it still doesn't lead me anywhere. Deep down in my heart, there is still no faith.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 01:33:08 PM by beebert »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #111 on: July 03, 2017, 01:32:23 PM »
"No excuse" does not mean "no chance" but just the opposite. It means they in fact have every chance.
But... I know but it seems like he gave them a chance just in order to condemn them. ...

Pardon me, but how would that even work? Either one has a chance (in this case, many, many chances) or one has not. Do you believe God to be a liar or trickster?

Quote
Because if he was before the creation of the world, knew everything that was going to come to pass, created the world ex nihilo in accordance with his own will and then let things unfold just as he foreknew they would, how is that to have a chance?

Again, what is this non sequitur. He created a kosmos in which man "has a chance" and he created man to be his beloved companion. Yet to you this means he gave man no chances?
Perhaps you are right. Well. I must stop thinking about theology and focus on simpler matters

Theology is the knowledge of the divine, and that is only perceived with the nous. I find that works of love, along with fasting and prayer, do the most to adjust my nous -- and of course the Eucharist nourishes it. This is not what modern folks call "studying theology." :)
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #112 on: July 03, 2017, 01:34:34 PM »
"No excuse" does not mean "no chance" but just the opposite. It means they in fact have every chance.
But... I know but it seems like he gave them a chance just in order to condemn them. ...

Pardon me, but how would that even work? Either one has a chance (in this case, many, many chances) or one has not. Do you believe God to be a liar or trickster?

Quote
Because if he was before the creation of the world, knew everything that was going to come to pass, created the world ex nihilo in accordance with his own will and then let things unfold just as he foreknew they would, how is that to have a chance?

Again, what is this non sequitur. He created a kosmos in which man "has a chance" and he created man to be his beloved companion. Yet to you this means he gave man no chances?
Does man really have many many chances? I can't experience the existence of God whatsoever to start with. And when I read hebrews 6:4-6, 10:26-29(in fact, the whole hebrews seems to speak about this), the Shepherd of Hermas, etc. it seems like man really has one or two chances. Definitely not more than two.

Then I must be over-abundantly blessed, as every hour God gives me chances. Look at me, a wretch arguing on the internet, a hopeless case in many ways. Yet the love of God renews itself toward me perpetually, and I live and breathe and enjoy my children. I know that early on after you joined here I quoted for you a few passages from St. Paul in which he find extraordinary superlatives to try to describe the illimitable generosity of God.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #113 on: July 03, 2017, 01:43:30 PM »
"No excuse" does not mean "no chance" but just the opposite. It means they in fact have every chance.
But... I know but it seems like he gave them a chance just in order to condemn them. ...

Pardon me, but how would that even work? Either one has a chance (in this case, many, many chances) or one has not. Do you believe God to be a liar or trickster?

Quote
Because if he was before the creation of the world, knew everything that was going to come to pass, created the world ex nihilo in accordance with his own will and then let things unfold just as he foreknew they would, how is that to have a chance?

Again, what is this non sequitur. He created a kosmos in which man "has a chance" and he created man to be his beloved companion. Yet to you this means he gave man no chances?
Does man really have many many chances? I can't experience the existence of God whatsoever to start with. And when I read hebrews 6:4-6, 10:26-29(in fact, the whole hebrews seems to speak about this), the Shepherd of Hermas, etc. it seems like man really has one or two chances. Definitely not more than two.

Then I must be over-abundantly blessed, as every hour God gives me chances. Look at me, a wretch arguing on the internet, a hopeless case in many ways. Yet the love of God renews itself toward me perpetually, and I live and breathe and enjoy my children. I know that early on after you joined here I quoted for you a few passages from St. Paul in which he find extraordinary superlatives to try to describe the illimitable generosity of God.
I am happy that you feel that way. Then perhaps the difference between me and you(and Paul) is that you and Paul are loved by God, despite the fact that you might screw up, just like David was loved even though he screwed up, while I am not loved by God in that same sense, but more like an Esau or Saul who is rejected quite immediately?... Look what happened to Solomon after he sinned against God. God turned away from him and he became depressed and wrote the ecclesiastes about how life is all vanity...
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 01:48:33 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #114 on: July 03, 2017, 01:44:20 PM »
"No excuse" does not mean "no chance" but just the opposite. It means they in fact have every chance.
But... I know but it seems like he gave them a chance just in order to condemn them. ...

Pardon me, but how would that even work? Either one has a chance (in this case, many, many chances) or one has not. Do you believe God to be a liar or trickster?

Quote
Because if he was before the creation of the world, knew everything that was going to come to pass, created the world ex nihilo in accordance with his own will and then let things unfold just as he foreknew they would, how is that to have a chance?

Again, what is this non sequitur. He created a kosmos in which man "has a chance" and he created man to be his beloved companion. Yet to you this means he gave man no chances?
Perhaps you are right. Well. I must stop thinking about theology and focus on simpler matters

Theology is the knowledge of the divine, and that is only perceived with the nous. I find that works of love, along with fasting and prayer, do the most to adjust my nous -- and of course the Eucharist nourishes it. This is not what modern folks call "studying theology." :)
That is true
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #115 on: July 03, 2017, 01:45:19 PM »
Thank you, by the way, for using citations!

In both these sobering passages in Hebrews, the writer goes on to encourage those he's writing in glowing words. His words of warning are toward those who have "trodden under foot the Son of God, and ha[ve] counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and ha[ve] done despite unto the Spirit of grace." Yes, it is possible to tread Christ under foot and be judged for it.

But let's look at some of those words of blessing: From chapter 10: "But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions ... and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry." From chapter 6: "Beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: that ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, saying, 'Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.' And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise." (I like also this description earlier: "The earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God.") (All italics I've added.)
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 01:50:34 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #116 on: July 03, 2017, 01:48:36 PM »
I am happy that you feel that way. Then perhaps the difference between me and you(and Paul) is that you and Paul are loved by God, despite the fact that you might screw up, just like David was loved even though he screwed up, while I am not loved by God in that same sense, but more like an Esau or Saul who is rejected quite immediately?... Look what happened to Solomon after he sins against God. God turned away from him and he became depressed and wrote the ecclesiastes about how life is all vanity...

Gosh, Beebert, this again? Esau gave away his birthright, but he was greatly blessed in other ways and praises God for it when he meets Jacob again and they're both the heads of thriving clans. Saul was chosen to be king of all Israel and had many brilliant successes; he was also greatly loved by David who commanded all to forgive his wickedness toward himself up to the very day he died (David, the "man after God's own heart"). Solomon was given supernatural blessings and lived a long life of luxury and admiration. I don't see how you can blame God for any of these men's errors and claim they were never blessed.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #117 on: July 03, 2017, 01:49:50 PM »
Thank you, by the way, for using citations!

In both these sobering passages in Hebrews, the writer goes on to encourage those he's writing in glowing words. His words of warning are toward those who have "trodden under foot the Son of God, and ha[ve] counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and ha[ve] done despite unto the Spirit of grace." Yes, it is possible to tread Christ under foot and be judged for it.

But let's look at some of those words of blessing: From chapter 10: "But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions ... and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry." From chapter 6: "Beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: that ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
saying, 'Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.' And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise." (I like also this description earlier: "The earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God.")
So you don't take those passages as meaning that one is helplessly damned if one "turns away"? Then how do you understand the sentence "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened" in hebrew 6?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #118 on: July 03, 2017, 01:53:46 PM »
I am happy that you feel that way. Then perhaps the difference between me and you(and Paul) is that you and Paul are loved by God, despite the fact that you might screw up, just like David was loved even though he screwed up, while I am not loved by God in that same sense, but more like an Esau or Saul who is rejected quite immediately?... Look what happened to Solomon after he sins against God. God turned away from him and he became depressed and wrote the ecclesiastes about how life is all vanity...

Gosh, Beebert, this again? Esau gave away his birthright, but he was greatly blessed in other ways and praises God for it when he meets Jacob again and they're both the heads of thriving clans. Saul was chosen to be king of all Israel and had many brilliant successes; he was also greatly loved by David who commanded all to forgive his wickedness toward himself up to the very day he died (David, the "man after God's own heart"). Solomon was given supernatural blessings and lived a long life of luxury and admiration. I don't see how you can blame God for any of these men's errors and claim they were never blessed.
I didn't mean they were never blessed. I just meant they were not really forgiven when they made their mistakes. At least that is what I find when reading them... Isn't it strange? I mean if you take hebrew 12:16 and on now, it speaks about Esau and how he was rejected: "See to it that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected. He could find no ground for repentance, though he sought it with tears."
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 01:54:32 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #119 on: July 03, 2017, 02:04:26 PM »
Thank you, by the way, for using citations!

In both these sobering passages in Hebrews, the writer goes on to encourage those he's writing in glowing words. His words of warning are toward those who have "trodden under foot the Son of God, and ha[ve] counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and ha[ve] done despite unto the Spirit of grace." Yes, it is possible to tread Christ under foot and be judged for it.

But let's look at some of those words of blessing: From chapter 10: "But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions ... and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry." From chapter 6: "Beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: that ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
saying, 'Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.' And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise." (I like also this description earlier: "The earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God.")
So you don't take those passages as meaning that one is helplessly damned if one "turns away"? Then how do you understand the sentence "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened" in hebrew 6?

I do believe in condemnation, doom, suffering, smiting, and divine thwarting of evil men. And praise God for it, as it is just and it is merciful to the oppressed.

I've endured his wrath myself and wholly deserved it (that can't be hard for you to believe).

As or this passage, we read also in Hebrews discussions of repentance, forgiveness, mercy, and so on. Further, the writer is continuing a thought (note the "For ..."), in which he urges against doctrines of constant repenting and constant dwelling on the topics of baptism, chrismation, and eschatology and instead urges theosis. The passage in question says nothing about hell or damnation, by the way. And what does it mean to "taste ... the powers of the world to come"? At any rate, the teaching here is that it is impossible for those who meet whatever this description is to be renewed again to repent. Adding "God makes them so" and "then they suffer eternal torment" are embellishments of your own. But I'm forced to leave it to others to say if there is a Church consensus for this passage and what that exposition would be.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #120 on: July 03, 2017, 02:12:02 PM »
Thank you, by the way, for using citations!

In both these sobering passages in Hebrews, the writer goes on to encourage those he's writing in glowing words. His words of warning are toward those who have "trodden under foot the Son of God, and ha[ve] counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and ha[ve] done despite unto the Spirit of grace." Yes, it is possible to tread Christ under foot and be judged for it.

But let's look at some of those words of blessing: From chapter 10: "But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions ... and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry." From chapter 6: "Beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: that ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
saying, 'Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.' And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise." (I like also this description earlier: "The earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God.")
So you don't take those passages as meaning that one is helplessly damned if one "turns away"? Then how do you understand the sentence "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened" in hebrew 6?

I do believe in condemnation, doom, suffering, smiting, and divine thwarting of evil men. And praise God for it, as it is just and it is merciful to the oppressed.

I've endured his wrath myself and wholly deserved it (that can't be hard for you to believe).

As or this passage, we read also in Hebrews discussions of repentance, forgiveness, mercy, and so on. Further, the writer is continuing a thought (note the "For ..."), in which he urges against doctrines of constant repenting and constant dwelling on the topics of baptism, chrismation, and eschatology and instead urges theosis. The passage in question says nothing about hell or damnation, by the way. And what does it mean to "taste ... the powers of the world to come"? At any rate, the teaching here is that it is impossible for those who meet whatever this description is to be renewed again to repent. Adding "God makes them so" and "then they suffer eternal torment" are embellishments of your own. But I'm forced to leave it to others to say if there is a Church consensus for this passage and what that exposition would be.
What do you mean by merciful to be oppressed? And how do you know you have endured God's wrath, how do you experience God?

Regarding the mentioned chapter in hebrews; you say that it teaches that it is impossible for them to be renewed again to repent? Now what does that mean? If one can't repent, then one is going to hell right? So, basically it seems to mean that one is damned?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #121 on: July 03, 2017, 02:22:58 PM »
What do you mean by merciful to be oppressed?

I'm sorry, but has this concept really never crossed your mind? You are angry at God too much of the time to notice the evil men do? Perhaps that Bible you search day after day could yield you some illumination of the concept. God is the stay and the rescuer of the poor, the orphan, the stranger (immigrant), and the martyr. They cry to him hourly and he hears them and waxes wroth. Only because his mercy is so much greater than his judgment does he hold off on becoming their avenger as well, until nothing further can be done for the oppressor and he meets his well-deserved doom. What kosmos would we live in where no evil men suffered for the things they do?

Quote
And how do you know you have endured God's wrath, how do you experience God?

I have suffered much, my friend, and it has taught me much against my will. Gosh, at one time I was even a young man like you -- and how much changing I needed to do, since my daily way of thinking in my proud naivete was practically sociopathic. More recently, I have been a harsh father, and God has come to my daughters' rescue by chastising me in ways that were painful and hard to endure and brought me to stomach-wrenching tears in the nighttime. To suffer enough brings me humiliation and quietude, which work secretly and diligently to recreate me and heal my soul.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #122 on: July 03, 2017, 02:27:43 PM »
What do you mean by merciful to be oppressed?

I'm sorry, but has this concept really never crossed your mind? You are angry at God too much of the time to notice the evil men do? Perhaps that Bible you search day after day could yield you some illumination of the concept. God is the stay and the rescuer of the poor, the orphan, the stranger (immigrant), and the martyr. They cry to him hourly and he hears them and waxes wroth. Only because his mercy is so much greater than his judgment does he hold off on becoming their avenger as well, until nothing further can be done for the oppressor and he meets his well-deserved doom. What kosmos would we live in where no evil men suffered for the things they do?

Quote
And how do you know you have endured God's wrath, how do you experience God?

I have suffered much, my friend, and it has taught me much against my will. Gosh, at one time I was even a young man like you -- and how much changing I needed to do, since my daily way of thinking in my proud naivete was practically sociopathic. More recently, I have been a harsh father, and God has come to my daughters' rescue by chastising me in ways that were painful and hard to endure and brought me to stomach-wrenching tears in the nighttime. To suffer enough brings me humiliation and quietude, which work secretly and diligently to recreate me and heal my soul.
Wait. Are you meaning merciful to THE oppressed or merciful to BE oppressed? How is being oppressed ever a good thing, except that one might learn from it that oppression is bad? I think we misunderstood each other there?

I see, thank you for giving an example. Appreciate it.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #123 on: July 03, 2017, 02:33:30 PM »
How is being oppressed ever a good thing ...

The oppressor being oppressed? How could that not be a good thing?

Quote
... except that one might learn from it that oppression is bad?

Certainly there's that. Altho that is a simplification of what is learnt and how. We must learn to become divine, and the process is subtle and soulful.

Now I think I get what you're implying in this post -- that only bad people punish, and that punishment is bad. What is the child to learn from being deprived of lunch -- to deprive others of lunch? And so on. If this is your implication, then we have a fundamental difference. I would call your view a lack of understanding of facts and human nature and a fetishism of a fad. But that would be unhelpful. Intead, I'll just reassert my personal experience that, yes, "Whom he loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every one whom he receiveth," and it is good.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #124 on: July 03, 2017, 02:39:38 PM »
How is being oppressed ever a good thing ...

The oppressor being oppressed? How could that not be a good thing?

Quote
... except that one might learn from it that oppression is bad?

Certainly there's that. Altho that is a simplification of what is learnt and how. We must learn to become divine, and the process is subtle and soulful.

Now I think I get what you're implying in this post -- that only bad people punish, and that punishment is bad. What is the child to learn from being deprived of lunch -- to deprive others of lunch? And so on. If this is your implication, then we have a fundamental difference. I would call your view a lack of understanding of facts and human nature and a fetishism of a fad. But that would be unhelpful. Intead, I'll just reassert my personal experience that, yes, "Whom he loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every one whom he receiveth," and it is good.
No I simply just thought you meant that it is a good thing to be oppressed, I didn't know you were talking about oppressors. Now, I can accept that an oppressor deserves punishment and correction, but why oppression though?

'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #125 on: July 04, 2017, 08:54:19 AM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
i guess the Jesus seminar "scholars" do too .
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #126 on: July 04, 2017, 08:58:58 AM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
i guess the Jesus seminar "scholars" do too .
Who are they and what about them?
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #127 on: July 04, 2017, 09:48:24 AM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
i guess the Jesus seminar "scholars" do too .
Who are they and what about them?
They promoted their theory that Jesus was a great mortal rabbi who haad much worldly wisdom. They also promoted the "gospel" of Thomas. I am having trouble posting a link on my iPhone. An easy Wikipedia s arch will bring them up and wiki is ok here.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 09:48:58 AM by recent convert »
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Beware the wrath of the guardians of "love."

Offline Agabus

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #128 on: July 04, 2017, 10:35:30 AM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
i guess the Jesus seminar "scholars" do too .
Who are they and what about them?
They promoted their theory that Jesus was a great mortal rabbi who haad much worldly wisdom. They also promoted the "gospel" of Thomas. I am having trouble posting a link on my iPhone. An easy Wikipedia s arch will bring them up and wiki is ok here.
Actually, that summation gives too much credit to Jesus, at least based on their early work. I haven't followed it in about 10 years.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #129 on: July 04, 2017, 10:42:33 AM »
They had a thing for beads, IIRC.
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Offline Luke

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #130 on: July 04, 2017, 11:59:26 AM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
i guess the Jesus seminar "scholars" do too .
:laugh:

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #131 on: July 04, 2017, 12:13:56 PM »
They had a thing for beads, IIRC.

*ding ding*

Yeah they were a handful of hubristic old textual critics and other scholars that "proved" the "real Jesus" spoke only a handful of words attributed to him. They did this partly in the standard old German way of discernment: "Here he contradicts himself, or contradicts his Apostles or the Church, so this proves his true words have been accidentally preserved" and partly in a novel way: If any of them "felt" the "authentic" words of Jesus were being read at their conference, each would silently drop a bead in a bucket as a vote.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #132 on: July 04, 2017, 12:16:19 PM »
It seems beebert knows very fluent Koine.
i guess the Jesus seminar "scholars" do too .

I'm guessing Mina's point was more-nearly to ask why one would reject the Church on these matters, considering her vast knowledge over centuries the individual can't hope to rival.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy