Author Topic: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?  (Read 2263 times)

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Offline beebert

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A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« on: June 28, 2017, 07:29:49 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibUI71c84tg

A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
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Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2017, 08:14:18 PM »
Did you miss the party?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71230.0.html
No no... I was listening to this "preaching" by the hateful MacArthur, and wondered not about Hank but about MacArthur. He was the one I asked about whether you could sense a touch of God, love and truth in his words. I can't. It is like a devil incarnated to me.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 08:18:53 PM by beebert »
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Offline Arachne

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2017, 08:36:36 AM »
Did you miss the party?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71230.0.html
No no... I was listening to this "preaching" by the hateful MacArthur, and wondered not about Hank but about MacArthur. He was the one I asked about whether you could sense a touch of God, love and truth in his words. I can't. It is like a devil incarnated to me.

Ah, I see. I didn't bother to listen, to be honest. I had a look at the title, thought 'Well, that's 8 minutes of vitriol I'll never get back' and noped right out of there.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2017, 09:50:54 AM »
You're on OrthodoxChristianity.net, not CalvinistAngrySkyDad.net.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
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Offline eddybear

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2017, 07:23:27 PM »
Did you miss the party?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71230.0.html
No no... I was listening to this "preaching" by the hateful MacArthur, and wondered not about Hank but about MacArthur. He was the one I asked about whether you could sense a touch of God, love and truth in his words. I can't. It is like a devil incarnated to me.

Ah, I see. I didn't bother to listen, to be honest. I had a look at the title, thought 'Well, that's 8 minutes of vitriol I'll never get back' and noped right out of there.

Me too.

 Beebert, why are you listening to this stuff? It won't do you any good. Leave the haters to their hatred, and spend your time listening to those who do speak with the love of Christ.

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2017, 07:39:38 PM »
Did you miss the party?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71230.0.html
No no... I was listening to this "preaching" by the hateful MacArthur, and wondered not about Hank but about MacArthur. He was the one I asked about whether you could sense a touch of God, love and truth in his words. I can't. It is like a devil incarnated to me.

Ah, I see. I didn't bother to listen, to be honest. I had a look at the title, thought 'Well, that's 8 minutes of vitriol I'll never get back' and noped right out of there.

Me too.

 Beebert, why are you listening to this stuff? It won't do you any good. Leave the haters to their hatred, and spend your time listening to those who do speak with the love of Christ.
How am I to avoid believing that christianity is a religion of hate already from its start, when all these hating people do (or Perhaps I am so deluded I cant see that they love, but if so, I am forever lost, because I can Only sense an intense lust for revenge, power and hatred in the preaching of these men) is to quote from scripture? And then when you actually read scripture, you simply can't see anything else than this lust for revenge. When reading Paul, it is like seing an image of Calvin's followers who preach God's disgust towards mankind. For God so loved the world... They made it to "For God so hated all except his elect few, that he chose to love in order to satisfy his own vanity ". Macarthur has made me almost want to burn my new testament. I know Christ demands me to forgive. But this man has raped my soul and almost destroyed my whole sense of love and sanity. I was once heard a pastor say that depression and low-self esteem is pure egoism and sin. “It’s putting yourself ahead of God,” he said. “The only psychotherapy anyone needs is the Bible.” Encouraging...
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 07:45:18 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2017, 07:50:36 PM »
"The sight of the torments of the damned in hell will increase the ecstasy of the saints forever!", is that the attitude of Christ and Christians? That is hate. Now I ask instead: How is an eternal paradise even POSSIBLE if there is a hell fire of eternal suffering next to it? I insist that It is impossible for a man who hasnt got a heart of stone. I rather choose to Believe that the Only ones who will be in hell are those who think it will be possible to enjoy heaven next to an eternal torture chamber.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 07:51:31 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Ainnir

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2017, 07:52:33 PM »
Satan quoted Scripture, too (and to God's face).  Do you think Scripture is Satanic because of who quoted it?  Why blame the Scripture or the Faith because some twist it?  Why not blame the one who twists instead? 

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2017, 07:57:45 PM »
Satan quoted Scripture, too (and to God's face).  Do you think Scripture is Satanic because of who quoted it?  Why blame the Scripture or the Faith because some twist it?  Why not blame the one who twists instead?
That is what I did. I didnt blame scripture. I blamed MacArthur for making it impossible for me to read the bible as the orthodox seems to read it. It is ingrained. I cant seem to get away with it. It is as if my brain, my nervous system, all my body and soul, tells me urgently that I am in a life-threatening situation everytime I read Paul's epistles for example.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 07:58:18 PM by beebert »
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Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2017, 08:08:10 PM »
BTW can man injure God? If not , then I say that you cannot commit a sin against an infinite being. I can only sin against my brother or my neighbor, because I can injure them. There can be no sin where there is no injury. And if Jesus died to make atonement, to make God accept my existence (shouldnt the fact that he created me be an acceptance?), to pay a debt to God himself who CREATED me, pay a debt for something I havent asked for, then I am not really forgiven now, am I? I am only accepted for existing because of another man's blood. Now this MUST be a distortion of the gospel(yet that is all I seem to find these days about the atonement in Paul's epistles), and an almost unforgivable one at that.
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Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2017, 08:12:08 PM »
Charles Spurgeon said that everywhere in hell will be written the words “for ever.” They will be branded on every wave of flame, they will be forged in every link of every chain, they will be seen in every lurid flash of brimstone — everywhere will be those words “for ever.” Everybody will be yelling and screaming them. Just think of that picture of the mercy and justice of the eternal Father of us all. If these words are necessary why are they not written now everywhere in the world, on every tree, and every field, and on every blade of grass? I say I am entitled to have it so. I say that it is God’s duty to furnish me with the evidence.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2017, 08:16:37 PM »
BTW can man injure God? If not , then I say that you cannot commit a sin against an infinite being. I can only sin against my brother or my neighbor, because I can injure them. There can be no sin where there is no injury. And if Jesus died to make atonement, to make God accept my existence (shouldnt the fact that he created me be an acceptance?), to pay a debt to God himself who CREATED me, pay a debt for something I havent asked for, then I am not really forgiven now, am I? I am only accepted for existing because of another man's blood. Now this MUST be a distortion of the gospel(yet that is all I seem to find these days about the atonement in Paul's epistles), and an almost unforgivable one at that.

Men did injure God, to death. This is the incarnation -- that God can be man, and in man. If you injure your neighbors -- sin against them, as you put it -- then you injure God -- sin against him. "Inasmuch as you have done it to the least of these ... Ye have done it into me."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2017, 08:18:26 PM »
Another pastor preached a sermon, in which he said that the damned will grow worse; and the same man said that the devil was the first Universalist. Then I am on the side of the devil. At least compared to him. His devil is a saint compared to the God he paints a picture of in his pathetic imagination
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2017, 08:19:54 PM »
BTW can man injure God? If not , then I say that you cannot commit a sin against an infinite being. I can only sin against my brother or my neighbor, because I can injure them. There can be no sin where there is no injury. And if Jesus died to make atonement, to make God accept my existence (shouldnt the fact that he created me be an acceptance?), to pay a debt to God himself who CREATED me, pay a debt for something I havent asked for, then I am not really forgiven now, am I? I am only accepted for existing because of another man's blood. Now this MUST be a distortion of the gospel(yet that is all I seem to find these days about the atonement in Paul's epistles), and an almost unforgivable one at that.

Men did injure God, to death. This is the incarnation -- that God can be man, and in man. If you injure your neighbors -- sin against them, as you put it -- then you injure God -- sin against him. "Inasmuch as you have done it to the least of these ... Ye have done it into me."
Okay good then that is Fair. You are right. But what about the rest I said?
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Offline William T

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2017, 08:27:35 PM »
Few, if any Orthodox have a high opinion of Calvinism.  I don't understand why you keep harping on this.  Do you want to learn about Orthodoxy, or unleash your Calvinist hang ups, and demand that people measure up to your idea of love and moral platitudes?


Axioms:

1) Everybody is "for love", including in their own weird understanding of it: ISIS
2) Everybody and their brother see themselves as good and moral, this seems to be true especially in this day and age   It's almost a neo-Puritanical age (heavens to betsy I miss the 90's and early 00's).  You have to work on restraining and keeping within it's proper confines your point of view, especially if you are interested in learning about other things.  Honestly, do you think it is at all possible the moral heavy handedness you are preaching in your posts about "love" may very well be a Calvinist hangover?

If you are interested in Systemic Comparison between Orthodoxy and Calvinism, wish to look into Orthodoxy, and so forth  this forum can be a good secondary tool to help get thoughts straight and ask more concise questions.  But this forum at best can only be a secondary source, and a springboard for other things.  For all your questions and arguments your going to have to invest in something a bit more concrete otherwise this forum will be just a waste of time for you and others spending their time trying to engage with you.  Noticing a few of your past posts, I do think you are going to have to change your philosophy when approaching this forum.  I think if you do that, you'll be able to learn and engage more.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 08:30:09 PM by William T »

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2017, 08:48:39 PM »
Few, if any Orthodox have a high opinion of Calvinism.  I don't understand why you keep harping on this.  Do you want to learn about Orthodoxy, or unleash your Calvinist hang ups, and demand that people measure up to your idea of love and moral platitudes?


Axioms:

1) Everybody is "for love", including in their own weird understanding of it: ISIS
2) Everybody and their brother see themselves as good and moral, this seems to be true especially in this day and age   It's almost a neo-Puritanical age (heavens to betsy I miss the 90's and early 00's).  You have to work on restraining and keeping within it's proper confines your point of view, especially if you are interested in learning about other things.  Honestly, do you think it is at all possible the moral heavy handedness you are preaching in your posts about "love" may very well be a Calvinist hangover?

If you are interested in Systemic Comparison between Orthodoxy and Calvinism, wish to look into Orthodoxy, and so forth  this forum can be a good secondary tool to help get thoughts straight and ask more concise questions.  But this forum at best can only be a secondary source, and a springboard for other things.  For all your questions and arguments your going to have to invest in something a bit more concrete otherwise this forum will be just a waste of time for you and others spending their time trying to engage with you.  Noticing a few of your past posts, I do think you are going to have to change your philosophy when approaching this forum.  I think if you do that, you'll be able to learn and engage more.
Okay you are right... I apologize. Of course. From an orthodox perspective then, what is the view of these passages?


Does orthodox teach a man to resist oppression? Does it teach a man to tear from the throne of tyranny the crowned thing and robber called a king?

“Let every soul be subject to the higher powers: For there is no power but of God, the powers that are ordained of God.” (Rom. xii, 1.)
All the kings, and princes, and governors, and thieves and robbers that happened to be in authority were placed there by the infinite father of all!
“Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God.”
When George Washington resisted the power of George the Third did he the power of God? And those who resisted Hitler resisted God? “Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God,” is that to falsify the bible itself?
“For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain; for he is the minister of God, revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
“Wherefore ye must needs be subject not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.” (Rom. xiii, 4, 5.)

And all those murders in the old testament? How are they viewed? The slaughters of women and Children I mean. And how about the law? Did Christ really want People to Stone Children who disobeyed their parents and raped women to be forced to marry their rapists? What is and orthodox interpretation if these?

And what is the orthodox interpretation on the relation between God 's foreknowledge on the one hand, and predestination and election on the other?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 08:50:00 PM by beebert »
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Offline William T

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2017, 09:19:07 PM »
That's a lot of questions.  I don't know how you could expect someone on a medium like a forum to answer all that, especially with "the Orthodox view".  Everything you are asking requires a lot of unpacking.  Can't you see that?  You are asking for an entire worldview and then taking apart scriptures and asking for precise points....that's a hard task.  I highly doubt a forum can handle these requests.  I think your going to have to hone your questions a bit.

another thought,

Choose your own adventure:

a) You are self satisfied with your current position, and are just seeing what does and what does not meet those standards.  Orthodoxy will never meet those standards.  Honestly you are wasting your time here if that is the case.

or

b)  You are going to have to subject yourself to long hours of disciplined study...and if you really want to go the extra mile, attending the liturgy, Bible Study, and so forth. 

If this is the case let me use an illustration between a good student and a bad student that usually happens in something like a philosophy or religion 101 class:

a) Good student:  sits down, takes notes, listens more than speaks, works with the Prof and tutors after hours if they need help or wish to enrich their learning experience, takes initiative on  assigned projects and extra curricular activities

b) bad student:  raises hand every five minutes to challenge philosophy, hold discussions, talk about feelings, wanting to have "deep conversations"....usually drops out by the time he can get a full refund for his course after wasting most of the other peoples time.

If you are going to attend Liturgy, Bible Study, read Church Fathers / books on Orthodoxy etc you are going to have to put your sentiments aside if you wish to take it seriously.  This is true with anything.  No one would study Engineering or Medicine with such a facetious attitude.  For some reason when it comes to Religion, Philosophy, and the Arts everyone is an expert.

Offline William T

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2017, 09:36:55 PM »
Search the name Bishop Robert Barron.  He's Catholic, but he's overall pretty good with showing a more classic Christian world view to the uninitiated.  He probably responds to many of the questions you ask

Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2017, 09:40:59 PM »
Search the name Bishop Robert Barron.  He's Catholic, but he's overall pretty good with showing a more classic Christian world view to the uninitiated.  He probably responds to many of the questions you ask
Thanks I will...

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Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2017, 09:48:54 PM »
That's a lot of questions.  I don't know how you could expect someone on a medium like a forum to answer all that, especially with "the Orthodox view".  Everything you are asking requires a lot of unpacking.  Can't you see that?  You are asking for an entire worldview and then taking apart scriptures and asking for precise points....that's a hard task.  I highly doubt a forum can handle these requests.  I think your going to have to hone your questions a bit.

another thought,

Choose your own adventure:

a) You are self satisfied with your current position, and are just seeing what does and what does not meet those standards.  Orthodoxy will never meet those standards.  Honestly you are wasting your time here if that is the case.

or

b)  You are going to have to subject yourself to long hours of disciplined study...and if you really want to go the extra mile, attending the liturgy, Bible Study, and so forth. 

If this is the case let me use an illustration between a good student and a bad student that usually happens in something like a philosophy or religion 101 class:

a) Good student:  sits down, takes notes, listens more than speaks, works with the Prof and tutors after hours if they need help or wish to enrich their learning experience, takes initiative on  assigned projects and extra curricular activities

b) bad student:  raises hand every five minutes to challenge philosophy, hold discussions, talk about feelings, wanting to have "deep conversations"....usually drops out by the time he can get a full refund for his course after wasting most of the other peoples time.

If you are going to attend Liturgy, Bible Study, read Church Fathers / books on Orthodoxy etc you are going to have to put your sentiments aside if you wish to take it seriously.  This is true with anything.  No one would study Engineering or Medicine with such a facetious attitude.  For some reason when it comes to Religion, Philosophy, and the Arts everyone is an expert.
I guess you are right... Though I have researched orthodoxy and the common view on hell among the fathers too and this is what I have found for example :
It is a sea of fire—not a sea of the kind or dimensions we know here, but much larger and fiercer, with waves made of fire, fire of a strange and fearsome kind. There is a great abyss there, in fact, of terrible flames, and one can see fire rushing about on all sides like some wild animal. … There will be no one who can resist, no one who can escape: Christ’s gentle, peaceful face will be nowhere to be seen. But as those sentenced to work the mines are give over to rough men and see no more of their families, but only their taskmasters, so it will be there—or not simply so, but much worse. For here on can appeal to the Emperor for clemency, and have the prisoner released—but there, never. They will not be released, but will remain roasting and in such agony as cannot be expressed. (Homilies on Matthew 43[44].4)
And again:

For when you hear of fire, do not suppose the fire in that world to be like this: for fire in this world burns up and makes away with anything which it takes hold of; but that fire is continually burning those who have once been seized by it, and never ceases: therefore also is it called unquenchable. For those also who have sinned must put on immortality, not for honour, but to have a constant supply of material for that punishment to work upon; and how terrible this is, speech could never depict, but from the experience of little things it is possible to form some slight notion of these great ones. For if you should ever be in a bath which has been heated more than it ought to be, think then, I pray you, on the fire of hell: or again if you are ever inflamed by some severe fever transfer your thoughts to that flame, and then you will be able clearly to discern the difference. For if a bath and a fever so afflict and distress us, what will our condition be when we have fallen into that river of fire which winds in front of the terrible judgment-seat. Then we shall gnash our teeth under the suffering of our labours and intolerable pains: but there will be no one to succour us: yea we shall groan mightily, as the flame is applied more severely to us, but we shall see no one save those who are being punished with us, and great desolation. And how should any one describe the terrors arising to our souls from the darkness? For just as that fire has no consuming power so neither has it any power of giving light: for otherwise there would not be darkness. The dismay produced in us then by this, and the trembling and the great astonishment can be sufficiently realized in that day only. For in that world many and various kinds of torment and torrents of punishment are poured in upon the soul from every side. And if any one should ask, and how can the soul bear up against such a multitude of punishments and continue being chastised through interminable ages, let him consider what happens in this world, how many have often borne up against a long and severe disease. And if they have died, this has happened not because the soul was consumed but because the body was exhausted, so that had the latter not broken down, the soul would not have ceased being tormented. When then we have received an incorruptible and inconsumable body there is nothing to prevent the punishment being indefinitely extended. For here indeed it is impossible that the two things should coexist. I mean severity of punishment and permanence of being, but the one contends with the other, because the nature of the body is perishable and cannot bear the concurrence of both: but when the imperishable state has supervened, there would be an end of this strife, and both these terrible things will keep their hold upon us for infinite time with much force. Let us not then so dispose ourselves now as if the excessive power of the tortures were destructive of the soul: for even the body will not be able to experience this at that time, but will abide together with the soul, in a state of eternal punishment, and there will not be any end to look to beyond this. How much luxury then, and how much time will you weigh in the balance against this punishment and vengeance? Do you propose a period of a hundred years or twice as long? And what is this compared with the endless ages? For what the dream of a single day is in the midst of a whole lifetime, that the enjoyment of things here is as contrasted with the state of things to come. Is there then any one who, for the sake of seeing a good dream, would elect to be perpetually punished? Who is so senseless as to have recourse to this kind of retribution? (Ad Theod. 1.10)

If that is orthodox preaching (which I cant sense at all when I am at liturgies) then I reject it with all my heart and turn to Buddha instead who reached levels of insight far beyond the barbarian who wrote the things above IMO. Christianity seems so schizophrenic to me and it is hard for me to keep my sanity if I am to Believe the above. I cant accept not knowing what hell is like. It must be revealed. For the doctrine  has destroyed and keeps destroying lives. Some orthodox say "hell is heaven experienced differently", but that is a later view, not to be found neither in the bible nor the Church fathers.
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2017, 10:12:39 PM »
And when you get to the Buddhists, what are you going to threaten them with? What universe is there that can be made over into your image?

Of course the quotations above from Romans, or from the Fathers are "Orthodox preaching," by definition. Whatever spin you are trying to put on them by singling them out is, by definition, not.

I'm sorry you're intelligent and lonely. I hope your exercises here have brought you some pastime and relief. I hope interacting with other humans even on a forum and sensing our fellow human weakness has given you some sensation of companionship. If you're going to get implacable and imperious with it all, however, then you need to recover some sense of proportion.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline William T

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2017, 10:34:44 PM »
I think you are answering your own concerns then, which at this point seem rhetorical.  If you are all about Tolstoyism, Paul Tillich, Hegel, Nietzsche, some (probably westernized) form of Buddhism, and so forth I don't know what you expect .  I don't know how you can think Orthodoxy is just an affirmation of millennial spiritualism and moral sentiments.  That's obviously two different things.  I think you may be predestined for liberal Protestantism.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 10:36:13 PM by William T »

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2017, 10:53:16 PM »
And when you get to the Buddhists, what are you going to threaten them with? What universe is there that can be made over into your image?

Of course the quotations above from Romans, or from the Fathers are "Orthodox preaching," by definition. Whatever spin you are trying to put on them by singling them out is, by definition, not.

I'm sorry you're intelligent and lonely. I hope your exercises here have brought you some pastime and relief. I hope interacting with other humans even on a forum and sensing our fellow human weakness has given you some sensation of companionship. If you're going to get implacable and imperious with it all, however, then you need to recover some sense of proportion.
A minority report does exist, of course, of hopeful and compassionate fathers represented by Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, Isaac of Nineveh... Those are the only ones whose eschatology I have read without feeling nausea (Though I have not yet read Maximos Confessor). So the orthodox view is the one quoted there? It was John Chrysostom. If so, then I choose to join Nietzsche and rebel against christianity till God either in a miraculous way changes my heart and makes me see things clear, or sends me to hell. Nietzsche BTW, a genius not to be found in christianity unless you count the half-Christian half-atheist Dostoevsky(and Bach of course). Dostoevsky though, who does not accept the traditional answers to the theodicy-problem, and therefore also rejects a large part of the views of the fathers  (among them, John Chrysostom, Augustine, Basil the Great etc). If Dostoevsky would take part with anyone, it would be Isaac the Syrian. Also, I cant at all make sense of the idea that Starets Silouan and John Chrysostom worship the same God. One of them rejoices Over the idea of a sea of fire where the torments are so great they can not be imagined (did he believe it to be situated under the earth or was it just all in his imagination, where he finally, dressed in white clothes after having been cleansed by the blood of the lamb, had the possibility to be a bit sadistic for a moment?), the other one can not even imagine and stand the idea that divine love would bear that one soul is forever lost, and actually even goes on to hint that those who WOULD think like Chrysostom above, has no Place in paradise. I side with Silouan, but I simply cant find that God in scripture, in the tradition (except in Isaac the Syrian basically and perhaps a few more), or in prayers. And as Sophrony said when he saw Michelangelo's painting of the last judgment: "That is not the Christ I know". But it seems to have been the Christ that Paul, the John who wrote revelation (who is not the John of the epistles), Peter, Ignatius of Antioch, Hermas the sheperd, Tertullian, Basil the Great, John Chrysostom and Augustine knew.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 11:00:14 PM by beebert »
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2017, 10:53:46 PM »
I think you are answering your own concerns then, which at this point seem rhetorical.  If you are all about Tolstoyism, Paul Tillich, Hegel, Nietzsche, some (probably westernized) form of Buddhism, and so forth I don't know what you expect .  I don't know how you can think Orthodoxy is just an affirmation of millennial spiritualism and moral sentiments.  That's obviously two different things.  I think you may be predestined for liberal Protestantism.
Hegel is worthless and liberal protestantism is wishful thinking. I rather be Cold than lukewarm. I am for Dostoevsky, Nietzsche and Blake. And to a certain extent Berdyaev, Tolstoy, Kierkegaard...
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 10:58:23 PM by beebert »
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2017, 11:07:27 PM »
And I am of course for Seraphim of Sarov, Starets Silouan, Francis of Assisi and Isaac the Syrian.
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2017, 11:15:12 PM »
Pardon me, but how are you going to choose sides between saints who were completely at peace with one another and recognized by the same Church? You're raving.
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2017, 11:21:35 PM »
Pardon me, but how are you going to choose sides between saints who were completely at peace with one another and recognized by the same Church? You're raving.
I Think I gave the answer here;

A minority report does exist, of course, of hopeful and compassionate fathers represented by Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, Isaac of Nineveh... Those are the only ones whose eschatology I have read without feeling nausea (Though I have not yet read Maximos Confessor). So the orthodox view is the one quoted there? It was John Chrysostom. If so, then I choose to join Nietzsche and rebel against christianity till God either in a miraculous way changes my heart and makes me see things clear, or sends me to hell. Nietzsche BTW, a genius not to be found in christianity unless you count the half-Christian half-atheist Dostoevsky(and Bach of course). Dostoevsky though, who does not accept the traditional answers to the theodicy-problem, and therefore also rejects a large part of the views of the fathers  (among them, John Chrysostom, Augustine, Basil the Great etc). If Dostoevsky would take part with anyone, it would be Isaac the Syrian. Also, I cant at all make sense of the idea that Starets Silouan and John Chrysostom worship the same God. One of them rejoices Over the idea of a sea of fire where the torments are so great they can not be imagined (did he believe it to be situated under the earth or was it just all in his imagination, where he finally, dressed in white clothes after having been cleansed by the blood of the lamb, had the possibility to be a bit sadistic for a moment?), the other one can not even imagine and stand the idea that divine love would bear that one soul is forever lost, and actually even goes on to hint that those who WOULD think like Chrysostom above, has no Place in paradise. I side with Silouan, but I simply cant find that God in scripture, in the tradition (except in Isaac the Syrian basically and perhaps a few more), or in prayers. And as Sophrony said when he saw Michelangelo's painting of the last judgment: "That is not the Christ I know". But it seems to have been the Christ that Paul, the John who wrote revelation (who is not the John of the epistles), Peter, Ignatius of Antioch, Hermas the sheperd, Tertullian, Basil the Great, John Chrysostom and Augustine knew.
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2017, 11:54:38 PM »
Pardon me, but how are you going to choose sides between saints who were completely at peace with one another and recognized by the same Church? You're raving.
I Think I gave the answer here;

A minority report does exist, of course, of hopeful and compassionate fathers represented by Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, Isaac of Nineveh... Those are the only ones whose eschatology I have read without feeling nausea (Though I have not yet read Maximos Confessor). So the orthodox view is the one quoted there? It was John Chrysostom. If so, then I choose to join Nietzsche and rebel against christianity till God either in a miraculous way changes my heart and makes me see things clear, or sends me to hell. Nietzsche BTW, a genius not to be found in christianity unless you count the half-Christian half-atheist Dostoevsky(and Bach of course). Dostoevsky though, who does not accept the traditional answers to the theodicy-problem, and therefore also rejects a large part of the views of the fathers  (among them, John Chrysostom, Augustine, Basil the Great etc). If Dostoevsky would take part with anyone, it would be Isaac the Syrian. Also, I cant at all make sense of the idea that Starets Silouan and John Chrysostom worship the same God. One of them rejoices Over the idea of a sea of fire where the torments are so great they can not be imagined (did he believe it to be situated under the earth or was it just all in his imagination, where he finally, dressed in white clothes after having been cleansed by the blood of the lamb, had the possibility to be a bit sadistic for a moment?), the other one can not even imagine and stand the idea that divine love would bear that one soul is forever lost, and actually even goes on to hint that those who WOULD think like Chrysostom above, has no Place in paradise. I side with Silouan, but I simply cant find that God in scripture, in the tradition (except in Isaac the Syrian basically and perhaps a few more), or in prayers. And as Sophrony said when he saw Michelangelo's painting of the last judgment: "That is not the Christ I know". But it seems to have been the Christ that Paul, the John who wrote revelation (who is not the John of the epistles), Peter, Ignatius of Antioch, Hermas the sheperd, Tertullian, Basil the Great, John Chrysostom and Augustine knew.

Yeah. And there is no war between St. Silouan and St. John. They're agreed. Their sainthoods are discerned by the same Church. This is all your fancy.

Oh, and I see you've gone back to your original mode of saying you read, read, read the Scriptures and can't, for all your drudging efforts, find anything good. Well, assuming by Scriptures you don't mean Russian fiction, German essays, and Italian poetry, you've demonstrated very, very little facility with Scripture on this forum. In fact, you've shown chasms of ignorance that rival someone's who was raised in a completely different tradition. Maybe my expectations are too high, yet after all you claim that it is the profound knowledge of the Scriptures that has yielded you nothing but bitterness, so I think I'm just holding you to your word.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2017, 06:33:37 AM »
Pardon me, but how are you going to choose sides between saints who were completely at peace with one another and recognized by the same Church? You're raving.
I Think I gave the answer here;

A minority report does exist, of course, of hopeful and compassionate fathers represented by Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, Isaac of Nineveh... Those are the only ones whose eschatology I have read without feeling nausea (Though I have not yet read Maximos Confessor). So the orthodox view is the one quoted there? It was John Chrysostom. If so, then I choose to join Nietzsche and rebel against christianity till God either in a miraculous way changes my heart and makes me see things clear, or sends me to hell. Nietzsche BTW, a genius not to be found in christianity unless you count the half-Christian half-atheist Dostoevsky(and Bach of course). Dostoevsky though, who does not accept the traditional answers to the theodicy-problem, and therefore also rejects a large part of the views of the fathers  (among them, John Chrysostom, Augustine, Basil the Great etc). If Dostoevsky would take part with anyone, it would be Isaac the Syrian. Also, I cant at all make sense of the idea that Starets Silouan and John Chrysostom worship the same God. One of them rejoices Over the idea of a sea of fire where the torments are so great they can not be imagined (did he believe it to be situated under the earth or was it just all in his imagination, where he finally, dressed in white clothes after having been cleansed by the blood of the lamb, had the possibility to be a bit sadistic for a moment?), the other one can not even imagine and stand the idea that divine love would bear that one soul is forever lost, and actually even goes on to hint that those who WOULD think like Chrysostom above, has no Place in paradise. I side with Silouan, but I simply cant find that God in scripture, in the tradition (except in Isaac the Syrian basically and perhaps a few more), or in prayers. And as Sophrony said when he saw Michelangelo's painting of the last judgment: "That is not the Christ I know". But it seems to have been the Christ that Paul, the John who wrote revelation (who is not the John of the epistles), Peter, Ignatius of Antioch, Hermas the sheperd, Tertullian, Basil the Great, John Chrysostom and Augustine knew.

Yeah. And there is no war between St. Silouan and St. John. They're agreed. Their sainthoods are discerned by the same Church. This is all your fancy.

Oh, and I see you've gone back to your original mode of saying you read, read, read the Scriptures and can't, for all your drudging efforts, find anything good. Well, assuming by Scriptures you don't mean Russian fiction, German essays, and Italian poetry, you've demonstrated very, very little facility with Scripture on this forum. In fact, you've shown chasms of ignorance that rival someone's who was raised in a completely different tradition. Maybe my expectations are too high, yet after all you claim that it is the profound knowledge of the Scriptures that has yielded you nothing but bitterness, so I think I'm just holding you to your word.
If by John you mean John Chrysostom, then I respectfully disagree. Silouan was all in for Cosmic unity, and almost prayed even for fishes and trees. John Chrysostom was all in for divine vengeance(which is not found in any way in Silouan) and proclaimed the eternal destruction for the many without any hope for them whatsoever. So, even if they joined the same.Church and Faith in one sense, they were Worlds apart in their Most basic attitude towards the creation and man. Of Course Silouan would never protest against John Chrysostom and the others. It was not in his nature.

And now Dostoevsky: He was not primarly focused on personal salvation (from eternal punishment). No,  the highest aim of Dostoevsky’s Christianity is not personal salvation but the fusion of the individual ego with the community in a symbiosis of love; the only true sin that Dostoevsky appears to recognize is the failure to fulfill this law of love. In the end, Dostoevsky obviously agreed with Blake that "Everything that exists is holy".
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 06:37:22 AM by beebert »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2017, 11:03:28 AM »
Did you miss the party?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71230.0.html
No no... I was listening to this "preaching" by the hateful MacArthur, and wondered not about Hank but about MacArthur. He was the one I asked about whether you could sense a touch of God, love and truth in his words. I can't. It is like a devil incarnated to me.

Beebert,

You know I would expect perhaps someone else being shocked by how hateful some of his arguments are.  But coming from you, it's a different story.  You have a problem.  You seem to look for things that you can pinpoint to hate.  You want to have objects of hatred, to fixate on how evil they sound or are.

I want you to challenge yourself and find something nice about him.  I don't ever want to hear again any criticism from you on other people.  You have a problem, so you need take extreme measures in your life.  I don't care if he speaks terrible about us.  And you shouldn't either.  Christ is much bigger than this.  The Church has handled worse.

So find something nice to say from now on.  And stop it with your fixation on how bad certain people or theologies are.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 11:03:52 AM by minasoliman »
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Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2017, 11:20:37 AM »
Did you miss the party?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71230.0.html
No no... I was listening to this "preaching" by the hateful MacArthur, and wondered not about Hank but about MacArthur. He was the one I asked about whether you could sense a touch of God, love and truth in his words. I can't. It is like a devil incarnated to me.

Beebert,

You know I would expect perhaps someone else being shocked by how hateful some of his arguments are.  But coming from you, it's a different story.  You have a problem.  You seem to look for things that you can pinpoint to hate.  You want to have objects of hatred, to fixate on how evil they sound or are.

I want you to challenge yourself and find something nice about him.  I don't ever want to hear again any criticism from you on other people.  You have a problem, so you need take extreme measures in your life.  I don't care if he speaks terrible about us.  And you shouldn't either.  Christ is much bigger than this.  The Church has handled worse.

So find something nice to say from now on.  And stop it with your fixation on how bad certain people or theologies are.
You are probably absolutely Correct. But this far in my rather big research in christianity, many Church fathers and those afterwards, I find that tendency overwhelmingly great within christianity itself; namely to make the whole human race in its natural born state (even new born children. Well, isnt life itself evil? Then of course sex is sinful) into objects of hatred,. The objects need to take extreme measures in their lives, otherwise God Will torture them forever and ever in and everlasting fire of wrath and vengeance. But untill that day, let us "love" each other, even the objects of wrath for which nothing but endless torture awaits, until that blessed day of eternal revenge comes! That is what makes me want to puke. Now those are my last words of "hatred". I will from now try to to be "nice".

Except one more thing: This world can not be justified by moral means. God can not IMO justify his creation morally when a little child starves or get tortured to death. Only by aesthetic means can the world be justified; God as an artist. There, in aesthetic contemplation, is true love. Life as beauty. Life as a work of art. Not as a Court of law.
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2017, 11:31:33 AM »
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2017, 11:45:08 AM »
Of Course Silouan would never protest against John Chrysostom and the others. It was not in his nature.

"Silouan was a nice guy, so he would never have publicly called out Chrysostom for being such a hateful wretch."
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2017, 12:18:34 PM »
Satan quoted Scripture, too (and to God's face).  Do you think Scripture is Satanic because of who quoted it?  Why blame the Scripture or the Faith because some twist it?  Why not blame the one who twists instead?
That is what I did. I didnt blame scripture. I blamed MacArthur for making it impossible for me to read the bible as the orthodox seems to read it. It is ingrained. I cant seem to get away with it. It is as if my brain, my nervous system, all my body and soul, tells me urgently that I am in a life-threatening situation everytime I read Paul's epistles for example.

If you're afraid that you've been programmed to read the Scriptures in a way that's neither orthodox nor Orthodox, then stop reading them for a while and read the Fathers instead, and allow them to re-program you.  Once that's done (understanding their approach to life, Christ, the scriptures, the faith, etc.), then re-introduce yourself to the Scriptures.  This is a multi-year process.

Please: read responsibly.
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Offline beebert

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2017, 12:50:10 PM »
Satan quoted Scripture, too (and to God's face).  Do you think Scripture is Satanic because of who quoted it?  Why blame the Scripture or the Faith because some twist it?  Why not blame the one who twists instead?
That is what I did. I didnt blame scripture. I blamed MacArthur for making it impossible for me to read the bible as the orthodox seems to read it. It is ingrained. I cant seem to get away with it. It is as if my brain, my nervous system, all my body and soul, tells me urgently that I am in a life-threatening situation everytime I read Paul's epistles for example.

If you're afraid that you've been programmed to read the Scriptures in a way that's neither orthodox nor Orthodox, then stop reading them for a while and read the Fathers instead, and allow them to re-program you.  Once that's done (understanding their approach to life, Christ, the scriptures, the faith, etc.), then re-introduce yourself to the Scriptures.  This is a multi-year process.

Please: read responsibly.
Thanks for the tips... So which fathers should I spend most time on?
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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2017, 01:47:24 PM »
Did you miss the party?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71230.0.html
No no... I was listening to this "preaching" by the hateful MacArthur, and wondered not about Hank but about MacArthur. He was the one I asked about whether you could sense a touch of God, love and truth in his words. I can't. It is like a devil incarnated to me.

Beebert,

You know I would expect perhaps someone else being shocked by how hateful some of his arguments are.  But coming from you, it's a different story.  You have a problem.  You seem to look for things that you can pinpoint to hate.  You want to have objects of hatred, to fixate on how evil they sound or are.

I want you to challenge yourself and find something nice about him.  I don't ever want to hear again any criticism from you on other people.  You have a problem, so you need take extreme measures in your life.  I don't care if he speaks terrible about us.  And you shouldn't either.  Christ is much bigger than this.  The Church has handled worse.

So find something nice to say from now on.  And stop it with your fixation on how bad certain people or theologies are.
You are probably absolutely Correct. But this far in my rather big research in christianity, many Church fathers and those afterwards, I find that tendency overwhelmingly great within christianity itself; namely to make the whole human race in its natural born state (even new born children. Well, isnt life itself evil? Then of course sex is sinful) into objects of hatred,. The objects need to take extreme measures in their lives, otherwise God Will torture them forever and ever in and everlasting fire of wrath and vengeance. But untill that day, let us "love" each other, even the objects of wrath for which nothing but endless torture awaits, until that blessed day of eternal revenge comes! That is what makes me want to puke. Now those are my last words of "hatred". I will from now try to to be "nice".

Except one more thing: This world can not be justified by moral means. God can not IMO justify his creation morally when a little child starves or get tortured to death. Only by aesthetic means can the world be justified; God as an artist. There, in aesthetic contemplation, is true love. Life as beauty. Life as a work of art. Not as a Court of law.

The Church fathers spoke about so many things.  You seem to speak almost about one thing:  how evil someone is.  The Church fathers did not have the same fixation you have.  Key word: fixation.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2017, 02:11:20 PM »
Speaking of evil, I guess you don't know how evil you, Beebert, sound when you say torturing a child is "artistic" and "beautiful." As always, I know you don't come up with the outre decadence you affect on your own, so I blame your aesthetic idols, those evil men; yet, since you have decided to be the champion of such things on the forum, you do share in the blame and evil.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2017, 02:31:12 PM »
Speaking of evil, I guess you don't know how evil you, Beebert, sound when you say torturing a child is "artistic" and "beautiful." As always, I know you don't come up with the outre decadence you affect on your own, so I blame your aesthetic idols, those evil men; yet, since you have decided to be the champion of such things on the forum, you do share in the blame and evil.
Never Said torturing a Child was evil But as usual you missunderdtand. I should have foreseen that. I Said that I see no justice coming from God in a world where Children are tortured (that is, if you Care to be sensitive what I say instead of continuing reading like a barbarian), that is, the essence of evil. I dont like God's plan of paradise and destructive rertibution if he foresaw all suffering of Children. What is so hard for you to understand? The last part of your attack I dont get. You just make wild guesses and I believe, without trying to sound superior, that I am the one of us two who at least try to think for himself. Evil men... I guess we have different opinions on what that is. I say that all or no one is evil
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2017, 02:39:01 PM »
Speaking of evil, I guess you don't know how evil you, Beebert, sound when you say torturing a child is "artistic" and "beautiful." As always, I know you don't come up with the outre decadence you affect on your own, so I blame your aesthetic idols, those evil men; yet, since you have decided to be the champion of such things on the forum, you do share in the blame and evil.
Never Said torturing a Child was evil But as usual you missunderdtand. I should have foreseen that. I Said that I see no justice coming from God in a world where Children are tortured (that is, if you Care to be sensitive what I say instead of continuing reading like a barbarian), that is, the essence of evil. I dont like God's plan of paradise and destructive rertibution if he foresaw all suffering of Children. What is so hard for you to understand? The last part of your attack I dont get. You just make wild guesses and I believe, without trying to sound superior, that I am the one of us two who at least try to think for himself. Evil men... I guess we have different opinions on what that is. I say that all or no one is evil

Nah, I don't think I'm imagining things. Here's what you wrote:

Except one more thing: This world can not be justified by moral means. God can not IMO justify his creation morally when a little child starves or get tortured to death. Only by aesthetic means can the world be justified; God as an artist. There, in aesthetic contemplation, is true love. Life as beauty. Life as a work of art. Not as a Court of law.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2017, 03:24:34 PM »
Speaking of evil, I guess you don't know how evil you, Beebert, sound when you say torturing a child is "artistic" and "beautiful." As always, I know you don't come up with the outre decadence you affect on your own, so I blame your aesthetic idols, those evil men; yet, since you have decided to be the champion of such things on the forum, you do share in the blame and evil.
Never Said torturing a Child was evil But as usual you missunderdtand. I should have foreseen that. I Said that I see no justice coming from God in a world where Children are tortured (that is, if you Care to be sensitive what I say instead of continuing reading like a barbarian), that is, the essence of evil. I dont like God's plan of paradise and destructive rertibution if he foresaw all suffering of Children. What is so hard for you to understand? The last part of your attack I dont get. You just make wild guesses and I believe, without trying to sound superior, that I am the one of us two who at least try to think for himself. Evil men... I guess we have different opinions on what that is. I say that all or no one is evil

Nah, I don't think I'm imagining things. Here's what you wrote:

Except one more thing: This world can not be justified by moral means. God can not IMO justify his creation morally when a little child starves or get tortured to death. Only by aesthetic means can the world be justified; God as an artist. There, in aesthetic contemplation, is true love. Life as beauty. Life as a work of art. Not as a Court of law.
Yes, my dear. You dont seem to understand the meaning of that. Said I "Only by aesthetic means can we say that torturing a Child is Beautiful. But if we call it moral, if the universe is constituted by moral principles, then torturing a Child is not. But it is just so aesthetically beautiful". My GOD. That you can even pretend to understand what I said in a way like that or similar
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2017, 03:35:23 PM »
Satan quoted Scripture, too (and to God's face).  Do you think Scripture is Satanic because of who quoted it?  Why blame the Scripture or the Faith because some twist it?  Why not blame the one who twists instead?
That is what I did. I didnt blame scripture. I blamed MacArthur for making it impossible for me to read the bible as the orthodox seems to read it. It is ingrained. I cant seem to get away with it. It is as if my brain, my nervous system, all my body and soul, tells me urgently that I am in a life-threatening situation everytime I read Paul's epistles for example.


If you're afraid that you've been programmed to read the Scriptures in a way that's neither orthodox nor Orthodox, then stop reading them for a while and read the Fathers instead, and allow them to re-program you.  Once that's done (understanding their approach to life, Christ, the scriptures, the faith, etc.), then re-introduce yourself to the Scriptures.  This is a multi-year process.

Please: read responsibly.

+1

There are parts of the Scriptures that I still find hard to read without seeing the false interpretations I was taught, and so I tend to stick to other parts - primarily the Gospels and the Psalms. The epistles I too find hard.

Beebert, you really do need to stop reading / listening to things that spark off these thoughts. In another thread, Mor gave you the advice to just stick to John's gospel. Father George has also given you good advice, but.....

For any of this advice, or that given by many others here, is to have any benefit, you need to act on it. Now. Otherwise you are like a patient who goes to a doctor, gets the medicine he needs, and then leaves it on the shelf, goes to another doctor, gets more medicine, leaves it on the shelf, goes to another doctor.....

Throw away the books by authors who provoke you. Delete the links to sites of preachers of hatred. Resolve only to read the gospels, and those authors who stir you to love. Walk away from the topics on here that cause angst not benefit. Just do it!

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2017, 04:29:55 PM »
Satan quoted Scripture, too (and to God's face).  Do you think Scripture is Satanic because of who quoted it?  Why blame the Scripture or the Faith because some twist it?  Why not blame the one who twists instead?
That is what I did. I didnt blame scripture. I blamed MacArthur for making it impossible for me to read the bible as the orthodox seems to read it. It is ingrained. I cant seem to get away with it. It is as if my brain, my nervous system, all my body and soul, tells me urgently that I am in a life-threatening situation everytime I read Paul's epistles for example.


If you're afraid that you've been programmed to read the Scriptures in a way that's neither orthodox nor Orthodox, then stop reading them for a while and read the Fathers instead, and allow them to re-program you.  Once that's done (understanding their approach to life, Christ, the scriptures, the faith, etc.), then re-introduce yourself to the Scriptures.  This is a multi-year process.

Please: read responsibly.

+1

There are parts of the Scriptures that I still find hard to read without seeing the false interpretations I was taught, and so I tend to stick to other parts - primarily the Gospels and the Psalms. The epistles I too find hard.

Beebert, you really do need to stop reading / listening to things that spark off these thoughts. In another thread, Mor gave you the advice to just stick to John's gospel. Father George has also given you good advice, but.....

For any of this advice, or that given by many others here, is to have any benefit, you need to act on it. Now. Otherwise you are like a patient who goes to a doctor, gets the medicine he needs, and then leaves it on the shelf, goes to another doctor, gets more medicine, leaves it on the shelf, goes to another doctor.....

Throw away the books by authors who provoke you. Delete the links to sites of preachers of hatred. Resolve only to read the gospels, and those authors who stir you to love. Walk away from the topics on here that cause angst not benefit. Just do it!
Okay... Thanks. BTW : The thing you Said about going to doctors and then leave the medication on the shelf: I am literally doing that too. Perhaps we human beings have something unconcious within us that actually seeks and yearns for Self-destruction. I firmly believe that
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2017, 05:47:50 PM »
Satan quoted Scripture, too (and to God's face).  Do you think Scripture is Satanic because of who quoted it?  Why blame the Scripture or the Faith because some twist it?  Why not blame the one who twists instead?
That is what I did. I didnt blame scripture. I blamed MacArthur for making it impossible for me to read the bible as the orthodox seems to read it. It is ingrained. I cant seem to get away with it. It is as if my brain, my nervous system, all my body and soul, tells me urgently that I am in a life-threatening situation everytime I read Paul's epistles for example.


If you're afraid that you've been programmed to read the Scriptures in a way that's neither orthodox nor Orthodox, then stop reading them for a while and read the Fathers instead, and allow them to re-program you.  Once that's done (understanding their approach to life, Christ, the scriptures, the faith, etc.), then re-introduce yourself to the Scriptures.  This is a multi-year process.

Please: read responsibly.

+1

There are parts of the Scriptures that I still find hard to read without seeing the false interpretations I was taught, and so I tend to stick to other parts - primarily the Gospels and the Psalms. The epistles I too find hard.

Beebert, you really do need to stop reading / listening to things that spark off these thoughts. In another thread, Mor gave you the advice to just stick to John's gospel. Father George has also given you good advice, but.....

For any of this advice, or that given by many others here, is to have any benefit, you need to act on it. Now. Otherwise you are like a patient who goes to a doctor, gets the medicine he needs, and then leaves it on the shelf, goes to another doctor, gets more medicine, leaves it on the shelf, goes to another doctor.....

Throw away the books by authors who provoke you. Delete the links to sites of preachers of hatred. Resolve only to read the gospels, and those authors who stir you to love. Walk away from the topics on here that cause angst not benefit. Just do it!
Okay... Thanks. BTW : The thing you Said about going to doctors and then leave the medication on the shelf: I am literally doing that too. Perhaps we human beings have something unconcious within us that actually seeks and yearns for Self-destruction. I firmly believe that

We do. He's called the Enemy of man and the Evil One (ho poneros: also, the Opressor). In the same letter where we read of this we read that the Christ came into the world by the love of God to defeat this Evil One's purposes.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: A man of God? A man of love? A man of truth?
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2017, 09:07:11 AM »
Satan quoted Scripture, too (and to God's face).  Do you think Scripture is Satanic because of who quoted it?  Why blame the Scripture or the Faith because some twist it?  Why not blame the one who twists instead?
That is what I did. I didnt blame scripture. I blamed MacArthur for making it impossible for me to read the bible as the orthodox seems to read it. It is ingrained. I cant seem to get away with it. It is as if my brain, my nervous system, all my body and soul, tells me urgently that I am in a life-threatening situation everytime I read Paul's epistles for example.


If you're afraid that you've been programmed to read the Scriptures in a way that's neither orthodox nor Orthodox, then stop reading them for a while and read the Fathers instead, and allow them to re-program you.  Once that's done (understanding their approach to life, Christ, the scriptures, the faith, etc.), then re-introduce yourself to the Scriptures.  This is a multi-year process.

Please: read responsibly.

+1

There are parts of the Scriptures that I still find hard to read without seeing the false interpretations I was taught, and so I tend to stick to other parts - primarily the Gospels and the Psalms. The epistles I too find hard.

Beebert, you really do need to stop reading / listening to things that spark off these thoughts. In another thread, Mor gave you the advice to just stick to John's gospel. Father George has also given you good advice, but.....

For any of this advice, or that given by many others here, is to have any benefit, you need to act on it. Now. Otherwise you are like a patient who goes to a doctor, gets the medicine he needs, and then leaves it on the shelf, goes to another doctor, gets more medicine, leaves it on the shelf, goes to another doctor.....

Throw away the books by authors who provoke you. Delete the links to sites of preachers of hatred. Resolve only to read the gospels, and those authors who stir you to love. Walk away from the topics on here that cause angst not benefit. Just do it!
Okay... Thanks. BTW : The thing you Said about going to doctors and then leave the medication on the shelf: I am literally doing that too. Perhaps we human beings have something unconcious within us that actually seeks and yearns for Self-destruction. I firmly believe that
Don't be afraid to take the medicine. It can be a very helpful part of your overall healing.

As for the self-destruction, yes, and I think Porter's got the diagnosis right. We were created by God for life, but the enemy of our souls seeks to destroy us. But we do not need to fear, if we are united with Christ who is the Life.