Author Topic: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?  (Read 7389 times)

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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #180 on: October 22, 2017, 06:37:39 PM »
the blasphemy that Jesus Christ is also St. Michael, et cetera. 

Interestingly, I think Charles Spurgeon also believed that.

ETA: In that he thought that "Michael" was just a pre-Incarnate alias of Christ. He didn't believe Christ was an angel.

Just like the Seventh Day Adventists.

I do not think this is heresy or blasphemy, it does not denies the Trinity at all, unlike the JW view of Michael/Jesus.

I think it is both heresy and blasphemy, and at the very least, erroneous teaching.

Why would it be blasphemy? Is it really that important that St. Michael exist as an angel?

We know who St. Michael is.  He is a real person and a created being.  Not an alias of the Logos.

That's almost like saying that it's blasphemous to hold that Sts. Theodore the General and Theodore the Tyro are the same person erroneously split into two.

No, it's not.  They are both men and created beings.

But Spurgeon and the SDAs are not saying that Christ is a created being. Just that one particular created being (St. Michael) did not really exist and that Christ did all the things that we think are St. Michael.

And the Orthodox know that St. Michael is real, most especially those who have benefitted from his intercession.  The idea is heretical, and contrary to the living witness of the Church.  It is also blasphemous in that it makes the Logos something of a schizophrenic.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 06:39:32 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #181 on: October 22, 2017, 07:11:55 PM »
Just that one particular created being (St. Michael) did not really exist and that Christ did all the things that we think are St. Michael.

So if you happen to know, for Spurgeon or others, why exactly the deception? In other words: what is gained by going about things in this way? When I think of deception, sometimes it happens with Christ, but in those cases it's because the people (Satan, disciplines) simply do not recognize him, not because he's put on a disguise to pretend to be someone else. In the case where people have put on disguises, as a prophet once did, or the Archangel Raphael, there was a specific reason and need for it. Also, I admit to not knowing a ton about him, but it seems like an odd thing for a Protestant to believe given their tendency (generally speaking) to treat as suspect any interpretation that isn't straight-forward and literal.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 07:12:22 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #182 on: October 22, 2017, 09:29:08 PM »
I would add, Spurgeon's speculation  would be totally inoffensive if God the Word and the Archangel St. Michael were mythological figures.  For those who know they are real, however, it is another story.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #183 on: October 22, 2017, 09:29:18 PM »
Just that one particular created being (St. Michael) did not really exist and that Christ did all the things that we think are St. Michael.

So if you happen to know, for Spurgeon or others, why exactly the deception? In other words: what is gained by going about things in this way? When I think of deception, sometimes it happens with Christ, but in those cases it's because the people (Satan, disciplines) simply do not recognize him, not because he's put on a disguise to pretend to be someone else. In the case where people have put on disguises, as a prophet once did, or the Archangel Raphael, there was a specific reason and need for it. Also, I admit to not knowing a ton about him, but it seems like an odd thing for a Protestant to believe given their tendency (generally speaking) to treat as suspect any interpretation that isn't straight-forward and literal.

I don't know exactly, but I imagine it has something to do with the veiling of the Trinity in the OT. If you read the "Angel of the Lord" with whom Jacob wrestled as being Christ (which many Protestants do) or the "Three Men" at the Oaks of Mamre as being a theophany, then I guess to them it makes sense to extend it to all instances of "Who is Like God?"

I think one of Spurgeon's big texts for it was also 1 Thess 4:16. Jesus uses "the voice of an archangel" because, in a sense, He is one (though this does make Spurgeon sound kind of JW, so I might be wrong about it).

Admittedly, this doesn't explain the mention of Michael in Jude (let alone the question of interpreting Revelation).
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #184 on: October 22, 2017, 09:34:02 PM »
Just that one particular created being (St. Michael) did not really exist and that Christ did all the things that we think are St. Michael.

So if you happen to know, for Spurgeon or others, why exactly the deception? In other words: what is gained by going about things in this way? When I think of deception, sometimes it happens with Christ, but in those cases it's because the people (Satan, disciplines) simply do not recognize him, not because he's put on a disguise to pretend to be someone else. In the case where people have put on disguises, as a prophet once did, or the Archangel Raphael, there was a specific reason and need for it. Also, I admit to not knowing a ton about him, but it seems like an odd thing for a Protestant to believe given their tendency (generally speaking) to treat as suspect any interpretation that isn't straight-forward and literal.

I don't know exactly, but I imagine it has something to do with the veiling of the Trinity in the OT. If you read the "Angel of the Lord" with whom Jacob wrestled as being Christ (which many Protestants do) or the "Three Men" at the Oaks of Mamre as being a theophany, then I guess to them it makes sense to extend it to all instances of "Who is Like God?"

I think one of Spurgeon's big texts for it was also 1 Thess 4:16. Jesus uses "the voice of an archangel" because, in a sense, He is one (though this does make Spurgeon sound kind of JW, so I might be wrong about it).

Admittedly, this doesn't explain the mention of Michael in Jude (let alone the question of interpreting Revelation).

So then in this view, the Church's traditional experience with and teaching about St. Michael would be mere mythology and so much "Catholic" embellishment based on a misapprehension of the fact that he is actually an aspect of God the Word.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #185 on: October 22, 2017, 09:35:18 PM »
Just that one particular created being (St. Michael) did not really exist and that Christ did all the things that we think are St. Michael.

So if you happen to know, for Spurgeon or others, why exactly the deception? In other words: what is gained by going about things in this way? When I think of deception, sometimes it happens with Christ, but in those cases it's because the people (Satan, disciplines) simply do not recognize him, not because he's put on a disguise to pretend to be someone else. In the case where people have put on disguises, as a prophet once did, or the Archangel Raphael, there was a specific reason and need for it. Also, I admit to not knowing a ton about him, but it seems like an odd thing for a Protestant to believe given their tendency (generally speaking) to treat as suspect any interpretation that isn't straight-forward and literal.

I don't know exactly, but I imagine it has something to do with the veiling of the Trinity in the OT. If you read the "Angel of the Lord" with whom Jacob wrestled as being Christ (which many Protestants do) or the "Three Men" at the Oaks of Mamre as being a theophany, then I guess to them it makes sense to extend it to all instances of "Who is Like God?"

I think one of Spurgeon's big texts for it was also 1 Thess 4:16. Jesus uses "the voice of an archangel" because, in a sense, He is one (though this does make Spurgeon sound kind of JW, so I might be wrong about it).

Admittedly, this doesn't explain the mention of Michael in Jude (let alone the question of interpreting Revelation).

So then in this view, the Church's traditional experience with and teaching about St. Michael would be mere mythology and so much "Catholic" embellishment based on a misapprehension of the fact that he is actually an aspect of God the Word.

Oh, most definitely. Spurgeon was very Anti-Catholic.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #186 on: October 22, 2017, 09:42:06 PM »
Just that one particular created being (St. Michael) did not really exist and that Christ did all the things that we think are St. Michael.

So if you happen to know, for Spurgeon or others, why exactly the deception? In other words: what is gained by going about things in this way? When I think of deception, sometimes it happens with Christ, but in those cases it's because the people (Satan, disciplines) simply do not recognize him, not because he's put on a disguise to pretend to be someone else. In the case where people have put on disguises, as a prophet once did, or the Archangel Raphael, there was a specific reason and need for it. Also, I admit to not knowing a ton about him, but it seems like an odd thing for a Protestant to believe given their tendency (generally speaking) to treat as suspect any interpretation that isn't straight-forward and literal.

I don't know exactly, but I imagine it has something to do with the veiling of the Trinity in the OT. If you read the "Angel of the Lord" with whom Jacob wrestled as being Christ (which many Protestants do) or the "Three Men" at the Oaks of Mamre as being a theophany, then I guess to them it makes sense to extend it to all instances of "Who is Like God?"

I think one of Spurgeon's big texts for it was also 1 Thess 4:16. Jesus uses "the voice of an archangel" because, in a sense, He is one (though this does make Spurgeon sound kind of JW, so I might be wrong about it).

Admittedly, this doesn't explain the mention of Michael in Jude (let alone the question of interpreting Revelation).

So then in this view, the Church's traditional experience with and teaching about St. Michael would be mere mythology and so much "Catholic" embellishment based on a misapprehension of the fact that he is actually an aspect of God the Word.

Oh, most definitely. Spurgeon was very Anti-Catholic.

Right.  So like I said, an entirely heretical and blasphemous point of view.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline William T

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #187 on: October 22, 2017, 11:40:57 PM »
the blasphemy that Jesus Christ is also St. Michael, et cetera. 

Interestingly, I think Charles Spurgeon also believed that.

ETA: In that he thought that "Michael" was just a pre-Incarnate alias of Christ. He didn't believe Christ was an angel.

Just like the Seventh Day Adventists.

I do not think this is heresy or blasphemy, it does not denies the Trinity at all, unlike the JW view of Michael/Jesus.

I think it is both heresy and blasphemy, and at the very least, erroneous teaching.

Why would it be blasphemy? Is it really that important that St. Michael exist as an angel? That's almost like saying that it's blasphemous to hold that Sts. Theodore the General and Theodore the Tyro are the same person erroneously split into two.

I don't know if "blasphemy" is the right word unless maybe Michael is equated with God.  Don't Mormons kind of sort of say that in a roundabout way anyway?  And then say the same is true for us?  Or confusing Christ with an Angel, and somehow confusing us in the same breath, is a pretty big issue.  Islam doesn't go that far.  What the mormons do to angles and the Godhead seems much more severe than Islam and it came from a more direct line of deliberatley breaking from at least some kind of Christian environment.  Agian, I don't know if this is "according to hoyle" blasphemy, but my main point is it  certainly does matter at times to say who existed as who.

But even if that isn't the case there is something of a difference of when some Jews consider Satan to be nothing but a prosecuting angel, and just one of God's messengers (like Michael or the Angel of Death) with a specific role vs someone who is playing really loose with facts in crazy speculations about spiritualism, religion, and things like that.  Constructing a theology around angles, crazy speculations, and spiritual beings is a sign of a very detached and poor religion.  One may see honest mistakes made by Jews, Zoroastrians, or even your average pagan as people now your mind doesn't really belong focusing about such things.

In this case the many faults and low opinion I have of Mohammad seem much less fantastic and unhinged as the speculations of Joseph Smith.  And even if you look at the backgrounds you may be able to argue that Smith had less excuse to distort anything, he was raised in a much more stable Christian environment and deliberately adding a whole new dimension to things...Mohammad isn't as straightforward a case with that, his environment was much different than Smith's.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 11:53:18 PM by William T »

Offline juliogb

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #188 on: October 23, 2017, 06:23:27 AM »
I never heard of Spurgeon having that idea of St. Michael Archangel and Our Lord Jesus being the ''same'', do you guys have a source about it?

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #189 on: October 23, 2017, 07:00:01 AM »
the blasphemy that Jesus Christ is also St. Michael, et cetera. 

Interestingly, I think Charles Spurgeon also believed that.

ETA: In that he thought that "Michael" was just a pre-Incarnate alias of Christ. He didn't believe Christ was an angel.

Just like the Seventh Day Adventists.

I do not think this is heresy or blasphemy, it does not denies the Trinity at all, unlike the JW view of Michael/Jesus.

I think it is both heresy and blasphemy, and at the very least, erroneous teaching.

Why would it be blasphemy? Is it really that important that St. Michael exist as an angel? That's almost like saying that it's blasphemous to hold that Sts. Theodore the General and Theodore the Tyro are the same person erroneously split into two.

I don't know if "blasphemy" is the right word unless maybe Michael is equated with God.  Don't Mormons kind of sort of say that in a roundabout way anyway?  And then say the same is true for us?  Or confusing Christ with an Angel, and somehow confusing us in the same breath, is a pretty big issue.  Islam doesn't go that far.  What the mormons do to angles and the Godhead seems much more severe than Islam and it came from a more direct line of deliberatley breaking from at least some kind of Christian environment.  Agian, I don't know if this is "according to hoyle" blasphemy, but my main point is it  certainly does matter at times to say who existed as who.

But even if that isn't the case there is something of a difference of when some Jews consider Satan to be nothing but a prosecuting angel, and just one of God's messengers (like Michael or the Angel of Death) with a specific role vs someone who is playing really loose with facts in crazy speculations about spiritualism, religion, and things like that.  Constructing a theology around angles, crazy speculations, and spiritual beings is a sign of a very detached and poor religion.  One may see honest mistakes made by Jews, Zoroastrians, or even your average pagan as people now your mind doesn't really belong focusing about such things.

In this case the many faults and low opinion I have of Mohammad seem much less fantastic and unhinged as the speculations of Joseph Smith.  And even if you look at the backgrounds you may be able to argue that Smith had less excuse to distort anything, he was raised in a much more stable Christian environment and deliberately adding a whole new dimension to things...Mohammad isn't as straightforward a case with that, his environment was much different than Smith's.

Well, Mormons believe that Jesus is just one out of the unlimited Gods in the universe, you can become a God yourself if you follow the Mormon "Gospel" which is by living a good, submissive Mormon life and receiving the ordinances in the temple, mainly, the celestial marriage ordinance.

As for the Mormon view of angels, I do not know a lot about it, it is important to remember that not all LDS followers believe in this odd, Space Gods doctrines (Josephites or the Community of Christ for example), Smith taught that pop culture view that people become angels when they die and all angels were once human (ex. Michael is actually Adam, Gabriel was Noah, etc.)

Any misconception I wrote, please correct me.

Back to the Jesus Michael thing, SDAs believe that Michael is the name of the eternally Pre Existant logos, God the son, the son has incarnated, and is now named Jesus, Jesus is Jesus, period.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 07:02:54 AM by Nicodemusz138 »
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #190 on: October 23, 2017, 08:32:31 AM »
the blasphemy that Jesus Christ is also St. Michael, et cetera. 

Interestingly, I think Charles Spurgeon also believed that.

ETA: In that he thought that "Michael" was just a pre-Incarnate alias of Christ. He didn't believe Christ was an angel.

Just like the Seventh Day Adventists.

I do not think this is heresy or blasphemy, it does not denies the Trinity at all, unlike the JW view of Michael/Jesus.

I think it is both heresy and blasphemy, and at the very least, erroneous teaching.

Why would it be blasphemy? Is it really that important that St. Michael exist as an angel? That's almost like saying that it's blasphemous to hold that Sts. Theodore the General and Theodore the Tyro are the same person erroneously split into two.

I don't know if "blasphemy" is the right word unless maybe Michael is equated with God.  Don't Mormons kind of sort of say that in a roundabout way anyway?  And then say the same is true for us?  Or confusing Christ with an Angel, and somehow confusing us in the same breath, is a pretty big issue.  Islam doesn't go that far.  What the mormons do to angles and the Godhead seems much more severe than Islam and it came from a more direct line of deliberatley breaking from at least some kind of Christian environment.  Agian, I don't know if this is "according to hoyle" blasphemy, but my main point is it  certainly does matter at times to say who existed as who.

But even if that isn't the case there is something of a difference of when some Jews consider Satan to be nothing but a prosecuting angel, and just one of God's messengers (like Michael or the Angel of Death) with a specific role vs someone who is playing really loose with facts in crazy speculations about spiritualism, religion, and things like that.  Constructing a theology around angles, crazy speculations, and spiritual beings is a sign of a very detached and poor religion.  One may see honest mistakes made by Jews, Zoroastrians, or even your average pagan as people now your mind doesn't really belong focusing about such things.

In this case the many faults and low opinion I have of Mohammad seem much less fantastic and unhinged as the speculations of Joseph Smith.  And even if you look at the backgrounds you may be able to argue that Smith had less excuse to distort anything, he was raised in a much more stable Christian environment and deliberately adding a whole new dimension to things...Mohammad isn't as straightforward a case with that, his environment was much different than Smith's.

Well, Mormons believe that Jesus is just one out of the unlimited Gods in the universe, you can become a God yourself if you follow the Mormon "Gospel" which is by living a good, submissive Mormon life and receiving the ordinances in the temple, mainly, the celestial marriage ordinance.

As for the Mormon view of angels, I do not know a lot about it, it is important to remember that not all LDS followers believe in this odd, Space Gods doctrines (Josephites or the Community of Christ for example), Smith taught that pop culture view that people become angels when they die and all angels were once human (ex. Michael is actually Adam, Gabriel was Noah, etc.)

Any misconception I wrote, please correct me.

Back to the Jesus Michael thing, SDAs believe that Michael is the name of the eternally Pre Existant logos, God the son, the son has incarnated, and is now named Jesus, Jesus is Jesus, period.

Good info!

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #191 on: October 23, 2017, 08:47:56 AM »
Back to the Jesus Michael thing, SDAs believe that Michael is the name of the eternally Pre Existant logos, God the son, the son has incarnated, and is now named Jesus, Jesus is Jesus, period.

Surely if this monstrous belief had reared its head in the Early Church it would've been condemned as heresy.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Nicodemusz138

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #192 on: October 23, 2017, 11:09:48 AM »
Back to the Jesus Michael thing, SDAs believe that Michael is the name of the eternally Pre Existant logos, God the son, the son has incarnated, and is now named Jesus, Jesus is Jesus, period.

Surely if this monstrous belief had reared its head in the Early Church it would've been condemned as heresy.

I believe perhaps the earliest known version of this belief comes from the Bogomils (10th century)?
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #193 on: October 23, 2017, 11:15:53 AM »
I mean, if it's wrong, it's wrong, but I don't really see the blasphemy inherent to the idea.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #194 on: October 23, 2017, 11:43:52 AM »
Back to the Jesus Michael thing, SDAs believe that Michael is the name of the eternally Pre Existant logos, God the son, the son has incarnated, and is now named Jesus, Jesus is Jesus, period.

Surely if this monstrous belief had reared its head in the Early Church it would've been condemned as heresy.

I believe perhaps the earliest known version of this belief comes from the Bogomils (10th century)?

An evil sect, to be sure.

I mean, if it's wrong, it's wrong, but I don't really see the blasphemy inherent to the idea.

I don't know that it fits anyone's definition of blasphemy in terms of profaning God's name, but to my mind, the idea is blasphemous in that it contends that a particular and very real created being who is not God - in this case a particular and real Archangel - is God.  In this sense, it is no different from saying that Sabbatai Zevi or Secretariat - other very real created beings with their own minds and personalities, even as St. Michael is - are God.  This is certainly in line with the etymology of the term in Greek, impious speech.  As I said earlier, if God and St. Michael are just mythological characters or concepts, there is no harm in positing that one might be an avatar or an identity of the other.  If, however, they are real, saying that a particular angel is God is no different than saying a particular man is God.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #195 on: October 23, 2017, 01:19:29 PM »
Back to the Jesus Michael thing, SDAs believe that Michael is the name of the eternally Pre Existant logos, God the son, the son has incarnated, and is now named Jesus, Jesus is Jesus, period.

Surely if this monstrous belief had reared its head in the Early Church it would've been condemned as heresy.

I believe perhaps the earliest known version of this belief comes from the Bogomils (10th century)?
The Gospel of Thomas has Simon Peter comparing Jesus to a “messenger”. I presume the “messenger” is a translation of the Greek “angelos”.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #196 on: October 23, 2017, 01:26:15 PM »
It's more of an indifference to both. But if you had a gun to my head, I'd say Islam because of its history with Orthodoxy in ME. I find it difficult reading the history of the Hagia Sophia without my blood boiling and that's the tip of the iceberg.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #197 on: July 03, 2018, 12:40:07 PM »
Definitely Islam, Mormonism is laughable at best, but it’s not inherently dangerous, violent, or evil. Growing up under Sharia makes it difficult for me not to hate Islam.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #198 on: July 03, 2018, 01:30:02 PM »
Definitely Islam, Mormonism is laughable at best, but it’s not inherently dangerous, violent, or evil. Growing up under Sharia makes it difficult for me not to hate Islam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_Massacre



He was also known for being relatively ruthless in terms of how he ran his city.







Both are Arian heresies that have led to fraud, fornication, and murder at the hands of their founders, with both leaders mocking the Holy Trinity as a monstrosity.


("They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, that they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious. For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son. Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to (Allah) Most Gracious as a servant." - Qur'an, sura 19 (Maryam (sura)), ayat 88-93;


 "Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God anyhow—three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization…. All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster." - Teachings of Joseph Smith, 372)

with more Liberal interpretations spearheaded later on. How are they not on the same level?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 01:42:53 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Вознеслся еси во славе, Христе Боже наш, радость сотворивый учеником, обетованием Свтаго Духа, извещенным им бывшим благословением, яко Ты еси Сын Божий, Избавитель мира."

May God one day unite me with the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church. And may God forgive me for my consistent sins of the flesh and any blasphemous and carnal desire, as well as forgive me whenever I act prideful, against the desire of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to be a Temple of the Holy Spirit.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #199 on: July 03, 2018, 01:35:44 PM »
Both are Arian heresies that have led to fraud, fornication, and murder at the hands of their founders, with more Liberal interpretations spearheaded later on. How are they not on the same level?

When did you become Scandinavian?
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #200 on: July 03, 2018, 01:45:43 PM »
I only share my opinion which I believe is true, regardless if it falls under the umbrella of conservatism or liberalism. It's inherently contradictory to have nearly the same premises for Islam and Mormonism, even to the point of embracing polygamy, but to come to different conclusions.

Also, I don't like burning churches for heavy metal albums.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 01:46:02 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Вознеслся еси во славе, Христе Боже наш, радость сотворивый учеником, обетованием Свтаго Духа, извещенным им бывшим благословением, яко Ты еси Сын Божий, Избавитель мира."

May God one day unite me with the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church. And may God forgive me for my consistent sins of the flesh and any blasphemous and carnal desire, as well as forgive me whenever I act prideful, against the desire of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to be a Temple of the Holy Spirit.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #201 on: July 03, 2018, 02:42:01 PM »
No, Mormonism is not Arian. It's Polytheist.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #202 on: July 03, 2018, 02:44:05 PM »
Stop sharing lots of big pictures when you're trying to make a point. It's annoying and rarely relevant. Unless it's got CGI talking vegetables, it does nothing for me.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 02:51:58 PM by Iconodule »
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #203 on: July 03, 2018, 03:14:12 PM »
Stop sharing lots of big pictures when you're trying to make a point. It's annoying and rarely relevant. Unless it's got CGI talking vegetables, it does nothing for me.

Fine.

The Mountain Meadows Massacre, colorized.

« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 03:16:50 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Вознеслся еси во славе, Христе Боже наш, радость сотворивый учеником, обетованием Свтаго Духа, извещенным им бывшим благословением, яко Ты еси Сын Божий, Избавитель мира."

May God one day unite me with the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church. And may God forgive me for my consistent sins of the flesh and any blasphemous and carnal desire, as well as forgive me whenever I act prideful, against the desire of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to be a Temple of the Holy Spirit.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #204 on: July 03, 2018, 03:15:01 PM »
No, Mormonism is not Arian. It's Polytheist.

Isn't Christ a created creature who is also a separate entity from God the Father, but claims to be the Word of God? How does that not classify as Arianism?

It's Arian and Polytheistic!
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 03:15:42 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Вознеслся еси во славе, Христе Боже наш, радость сотворивый учеником, обетованием Свтаго Духа, извещенным им бывшим благословением, яко Ты еси Сын Божий, Избавитель мира."

May God one day unite me with the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church. And may God forgive me for my consistent sins of the flesh and any blasphemous and carnal desire, as well as forgive me whenever I act prideful, against the desire of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to be a Temple of the Holy Spirit.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #205 on: July 03, 2018, 03:20:15 PM »
No, Mormonism is not Arian. It's Polytheist.

Isn't Christ a created creature who is also a separate entity from God the Father, but claims to be the Word of God? How does that not classify as Arianism?

It's Arian and Polytheistic!

Some Hindus believe that Christ is an incarnation of God. That doesn't make them Orthodox Christians.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #206 on: July 03, 2018, 03:28:56 PM »
No, Mormonism is not Arian. It's Polytheist.

Isn't Christ a created creature who is also a separate entity from God the Father, but claims to be the Word of God? How does that not classify as Arianism?

It's Arian and Polytheistic!

For Mormons Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all gods. Just three separate gods. They also believe in other gods in addition to these.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 03:30:58 PM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #207 on: July 03, 2018, 03:34:49 PM »
No, Mormonism is not Arian. It's Polytheist.

Isn't Christ a created creature who is also a separate entity from God the Father, but claims to be the Word of God? How does that not classify as Arianism?

It's Arian and Polytheistic!

Some Hindus believe that Christ is an incarnation of God. That doesn't make them Orthodox Christians.

I could've sworn I edited this post to say "in Mormonism." I wasn't suggesting Arianism is Orthodox Christianity.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 03:35:01 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Вознеслся еси во славе, Христе Боже наш, радость сотворивый учеником, обетованием Свтаго Духа, извещенным им бывшим благословением, яко Ты еси Сын Божий, Избавитель мира."

May God one day unite me with the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church. And may God forgive me for my consistent sins of the flesh and any blasphemous and carnal desire, as well as forgive me whenever I act prideful, against the desire of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to be a Temple of the Holy Spirit.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #208 on: July 03, 2018, 03:36:52 PM »
No, Mormonism is not Arian. It's Polytheist.

Isn't Christ a created creature who is also a separate entity from God the Father, but claims to be the Word of God? How does that not classify as Arianism?

It's Arian and Polytheistic!

Some Hindus believe that Christ is an incarnation of God. That doesn't make them Orthodox Christians.

I could've sworn I edited this post to say "in Mormonism." I wasn't suggesting Arianism is Orthodox Christianity.

And it's icky, as Mormons still believe Christ is still God but a created creature of God, who is also a created creature to them.

My point is, the Mormons simply believing Christ was created doesn't make them Arians. Arians believed other things too, a lot of them in common with the Orthodox. The Mormon conception of the godhead would have been totally alien to the Arians.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #209 on: July 03, 2018, 03:55:29 PM »
Fine.

Both Mormonism and Islam are heretical sects whose ideology involved a belief in the idea of Christ being a created creature and not being a part of an Uncreated God.

There.
"Вознеслся еси во славе, Христе Боже наш, радость сотворивый учеником, обетованием Свтаго Духа, извещенным им бывшим благословением, яко Ты еси Сын Божий, Избавитель мира."

May God one day unite me with the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church. And may God forgive me for my consistent sins of the flesh and any blasphemous and carnal desire, as well as forgive me whenever I act prideful, against the desire of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to be a Temple of the Holy Spirit.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #210 on: July 03, 2018, 04:32:57 PM »
Fine.

Both Mormonism and Islam are heretical sects whose ideology involved a belief in the idea of Christ being a created creature and not being a part of an Uncreated God.

There.

I don't know if Mormonism includes a concept of uncreated God. They believe that gods were men before becoming a god and that all men have the same opportunity.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #211 on: July 03, 2018, 04:41:09 PM »
Did my statement say that Mormonism believes in an Uncreated God?
"Вознеслся еси во славе, Христе Боже наш, радость сотворивый учеником, обетованием Свтаго Духа, извещенным им бывшим благословением, яко Ты еси Сын Божий, Избавитель мира."

May God one day unite me with the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church. And may God forgive me for my consistent sins of the flesh and any blasphemous and carnal desire, as well as forgive me whenever I act prideful, against the desire of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to be a Temple of the Holy Spirit.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #212 on: July 03, 2018, 04:43:37 PM »
 :D fair enough.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #213 on: July 03, 2018, 05:00:02 PM »
luckily I never encounter Mormons!
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Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #215 on: July 03, 2018, 05:35:24 PM »
luckily I never encounter Mormons!

Their beliefs are wacky, but I never met a Mormon I didn’t like.
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #216 on: July 03, 2018, 06:32:42 PM »
Isn't Mormonism just WASP Islam?
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #217 on: July 03, 2018, 07:51:49 PM »
Isn't Mormonism just WASP Islam?

Mormons make better chocolate chip cookies, but that's a culturally culinary difference.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #218 on: July 04, 2018, 12:37:47 AM »
Islam probably. Mormonism is just ridiculous, it's not an existential threat.
+1
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #219 on: July 04, 2018, 01:14:28 AM »
Yeah, brazilian muslims are quite liberal I guess. Sheikh Imram Hossein went to my town once to talk with the local muslim community, he simpathyses with orthodox christianity.
It boggles my mind that any Brazilian would embrace something as antithetical to the Brazilian character as Islam.  Hopefully, the beaches, the music, the good nature of its people will change the minds of Muslims in Brazil away from this human scourge.

Quote
"There is some continuity [of moral values] between the Evangelical Church and Islam, in pudorous clothes and so on....
Hmm..."pudorous" is not (though "pudor" is, according to the OED) actually an English word. Is it from the Portuguese?
From the context, methinks that "modest" would be a better fit.
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