Author Topic: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?  (Read 3146 times)

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Offline William T

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #90 on: June 27, 2017, 02:35:19 PM »
So what you're saying is that Islam simply did to Christianity, Buddhism, etc. what these religions were already doing to other religions and cultures?

Did Christianity appropriate certain elements from pagan culture? Yes. Buddhism; I would be less likely to agree with Buddhism doing it. But no, it's not in the same way or using the same means.

Buddhism was obscure (probably because it originally amounted to nothing more than the atheistic self-indulgence of a too-clever Brahman prince and a few of his buddies) until it was spread by the sword.
So you have no problem admitting that buddhism was spread by the sword, but when it comes to christianity, historically the most violent of religions along with islam, you deny it? Or do you only deny that christianity has at many times in history been anti-semitic? I wouldn't pick down on Buddha by the way. He was a genius and a brilliant man in his own right. At least he sought he truth and desired peace etc.

Little known fact: Buddha was a Calvinist.

Were I really clever I would do an acrostic that could somehow utilize the Four Noble Truths in TULIP, unfortunately I'm not so clever

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #91 on: June 27, 2017, 02:35:33 PM »
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #92 on: June 27, 2017, 02:36:41 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #93 on: June 27, 2017, 02:38:25 PM »
So what you're saying is that Islam simply did to Christianity, Buddhism, etc. what these religions were already doing to other religions and cultures?

Did Christianity appropriate certain elements from pagan culture? Yes. Buddhism; I would be less likely to agree with Buddhism doing it. But no, it's not in the same way or using the same means.

Buddhism was obscure (probably because it originally amounted to nothing more than the atheistic self-indulgence of a too-clever Brahman prince and a few of his buddies) until it was spread by the sword.
So you have no problem admitting that buddhism was spread by the sword, but when it comes to christianity, historically the most violent of religions along with islam, you deny it? Or do you only deny that christianity has at many times in history been anti-semitic? I wouldn't pick down on Buddha by the way. He was a genius and a brilliant man in his own right. At least he sought he truth and desired peace etc.

Little known fact: Buddha was a Calvinist.

Were I really clever I would do an acrostic that could somehow utilize the Four Noble Truths in TULIP, unfortunately I'm not so clever
It seems one must admit that buddhism looks like the far superior religion of the two if one would summarize buddhism into the Four Noble Truths and christianity into TULIP.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 02:38:53 PM by beebert »
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Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #94 on: June 27, 2017, 02:39:31 PM »
Calvin was brilliant

I knew it!
Brilliant doesn't mean that he was a good man. It would have been better if he never had been born surely.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #95 on: June 27, 2017, 02:40:01 PM »
So what you're saying is that Islam simply did to Christianity, Buddhism, etc. what these religions were already doing to other religions and cultures?

Did Christianity appropriate certain elements from pagan culture? Yes. Buddhism; I would be less likely to agree with Buddhism doing it. But no, it's not in the same way or using the same means.

Buddhism was obscure (probably because it originally amounted to nothing more than the atheistic self-indulgence of a too-clever Brahman prince and a few of his buddies) until it was spread by the sword.
So you have no problem admitting that buddhism was spread by the sword, but when it comes to christianity, historically the most violent of religions along with islam, you deny it? Or do you only deny that christianity has at many times in history been anti-semitic? I wouldn't pick down on Buddha by the way. He was a genius and a brilliant man in his own right. At least he sought he truth and desired peace etc.

I do?

Quote
christianity, historically the most violent of religions

You might want to rethink that. Egyptians, Sumerians, Babylonians, Assyrians, West Africans, South Americans ... and on and on. All ancient bloody civilizations arose amid a religion and altered and perpetuated that religion for their purposes.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #96 on: June 27, 2017, 02:41:41 PM »
So what you're saying is that Islam simply did to Christianity, Buddhism, etc. what these religions were already doing to other religions and cultures?

Did Christianity appropriate certain elements from pagan culture? Yes. Buddhism; I would be less likely to agree with Buddhism doing it. But no, it's not in the same way or using the same means.

Buddhism was obscure (probably because it originally amounted to nothing more than the atheistic self-indulgence of a too-clever Brahman prince and a few of his buddies) until it was spread by the sword.
So you have no problem admitting that buddhism was spread by the sword, but when it comes to christianity, historically the most violent of religions along with islam, you deny it? Or do you only deny that christianity has at many times in history been anti-semitic? I wouldn't pick down on Buddha by the way. He was a genius and a brilliant man in his own right. At least he sought he truth and desired peace etc.

I do?

Quote
christianity, historically the most violent of religions

You might want to rethink that. Egyptians, Sumerians, Babylonians, Assyrians, West Africans, South Americans ... and on and on. All ancient bloody civilizations arose amid a religion and altered and perpetuated that religion for their purposes.
No I asked you if you did.

Hmm... I would still give the prize to christianity and islam. The forced conversions by violence around half the globe and the inquisitions and the crusade is enough. And there is more to it. And since christianity really is the religion that holds the keys to heaven and hell(which, remind you, is eternal torture), every sort of distortion of that truth in practice by the christian herd is probably the worst possible crime. Historically, correct doctrine has been more important than correct practice. But that is not a typical christian mistake though, it is a human one.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 02:44:01 PM by beebert »
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Offline Iconodule

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Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #98 on: June 27, 2017, 02:42:26 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline William T

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #99 on: June 27, 2017, 02:45:55 PM »
So what you're saying is that Islam simply did to Christianity, Buddhism, etc. what these religions were already doing to other religions and cultures?

Did Christianity appropriate certain elements from pagan culture? Yes. Buddhism; I would be less likely to agree with Buddhism doing it. But no, it's not in the same way or using the same means.

Buddhism was obscure (probably because it originally amounted to nothing more than the atheistic self-indulgence of a too-clever Brahman prince and a few of his buddies) until it was spread by the sword.
So you have no problem admitting that buddhism was spread by the sword, but when it comes to christianity, historically the most violent of religions along with islam, you deny it? Or do you only deny that christianity has at many times in history been anti-semitic? I wouldn't pick down on Buddha by the way. He was a genius and a brilliant man in his own right. At least he sought he truth and desired peace etc.

Little known fact: Buddha was a Calvinist.

Were I really clever I would do an acrostic that could somehow utilize the Four Noble Truths in TULIP, unfortunately I'm not so clever
It seems one must admit that buddhism looks like the far superior religion of the two if one would summarize buddhism into the Four Noble Truths and christianity into TULIP.

I was attempting to make a joke.  I don't really think I have any real ability to translate Buddhism.  All I can say is that the people whom I've  met that actually factually practice it (which isn't many, and all of whom are immigrants) I tend to respect and like their manners and aesthetics.  Though I tend to strongly dislike the college kids and yuppie gentrifiers who flock to it (all of whom are ex-WASPS).
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 02:46:33 PM by William T »

Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #100 on: June 27, 2017, 02:46:21 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Alkis

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #101 on: June 27, 2017, 02:56:55 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 02:57:24 PM by Alkis »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #102 on: June 27, 2017, 02:59:20 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!

Pretty easy. Popular Victorian enemies of Christianity become Fathers among the Saints. The Canon is reduced to a handful of partial books. "Do as thou wilt, and it harm not Beebert's feelings," becomes the Creed.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #103 on: June 27, 2017, 03:01:42 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline juliogb

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #104 on: June 27, 2017, 03:02:14 PM »
Quote
No I asked you if you did.

Hmm... I would still give the prize to christianity and islam. The forced conversions by violence around half the globe and the inquisitions and the crusade is enough. And there is more to it. And since christianity really is the religion that holds the keys to heaven and hell(which, remind you, is eternal torture), every sort of distortion of that truth in practice by the christian herd is probably the worst possible crime. Historically, correct doctrine has been more important than correct practice. But that is not a typical christian mistake though, it is a human one.

Crusades were a response of a call of eastern romans, aka orthodox, to help them to stop the brutal and massive spread of islam that was ocurring since its inception. The inquisition as far as I know is overly exagerated, 600 years of inquisition never reached the number of death penalties as a normal afternoon during the great terror in the french revolution. The most problematic history time in my view in christianity, at least in western christianity, is in the america's conquering, but it is still debatable, in Brazil for instance, one of the biggest allies of the indigenous against the spanish and portuguese crowns were the jesuits.

Offline Alkis

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #105 on: June 27, 2017, 03:03:51 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.

Yes Popes became very violent at times in the West. Inquisition, Crusades... But what has this to do with the Church of Christ?
For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #106 on: June 27, 2017, 03:04:58 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!

Pretty easy. Popular Victorian enemies of Christianity become Fathers among the Saints. The Canon is reduced to a handful of partial books. "Do as thou wilt, and it harm not Beebert's feelings," becomes the Creed.
Now mind you; I do not at any rate despise christianity as it is practiced by people like Francis of Assisi and Starets Silouan, as I have mentioned so many times. That to me is true christianity. But what institutional christianity(especially in the west) has done in the name of Christ, I despise more than most things. The oppression, the murders, the dogmatic fights, the burning of heretics, the threatenings of hell to poor common people done by a church of power, etc. It is not easy to discover the lovely truth behind all this wickedness done in the name of Christ and God.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 03:05:21 PM by beebert »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #107 on: June 27, 2017, 03:06:51 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.

Christendom achieved world dominance only after the Reformation and Enlightenment, both of which were massively-successful overthrows of Christianity. Then the worst violence came with the World Wars, when Christendom was largely led by materialist intellectuals. Not to mention just how many centuries had passed. So to seek to compare this with the violence of Islam or Buddhism, which came as part of their origins, may not be ingenuous.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #108 on: June 27, 2017, 03:08:19 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.

Yes Popes became very violent at times in the West. Inquisition, Crusades... But what has this to do with the Church of Christ?
Indirectly, a lot. Directly, not much. The problem is that because of all that, as I mentioned in my above post, people have fled from what they think is christianity, because of what evil people have done in its name. Remember and understand: People like the ones I have already mentioned many times(Silouan, Francis of Assisi etc) I respect more than anything. That IS the truth and surpasses everything. But that is no as easy to discover for an honest man as all the filth done by the institutional church of especially the catholic church.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #109 on: June 27, 2017, 03:09:23 PM »
So I have a personal contribution to this thread, a prayer request.   Please forgive its length. Two of my best friends were and are Muslim and Mormon respectively.

Amuda was my driver in Ghana when I worked there in 2006-2008.  Over the time we were together however, we developed a deep bomd of friendship.  He was not an extremely devout Muslim (his main observance consisted of ritual ablutions connected with Friday prayers).  He was not wealthy; he was from Burkina Faso, an immigrant to the wealthier and healthier land of Ghana. 

Our friendship became deep, and frequently we explored the countryside on weekends, viaiting the national parks, and going on excursions with my friend Colin, the British (and somewhat Christian) creative director at my client's ad agency (who is still with us and still one of my best friends).  Both Amuda and Charles were older than I; Amuda about ten years and Colin, about 20.  I was 20 when I was invited to work as a network engineer in Ghana; I was a bit of a prodigy in terms of computer systems, had the certs, and was both an expat and relatively inexpensive.  I also enjoyed working on our finnicky Alcatel backbone, which consisted of new equipment, but lousy infrastructure, and quite a bit of oversold equipment and equipment not quite ideal for our systems.

Amuda and I became close to the point that when he was married, I returned to the country, around the turn of the decade or so, and was the best man at his wedding.  This did not entail any religious duties; that part occurred in the morning and I was uninvolved.   Rather, at the wedding reception I was seated at the table of honour with Amuda, his bride, and his older brother, his only living adult relative (he had a child by a previous marriage).

Most of those present were from our firm; Ghanaian companies are like families, and everyone was there, including our managing director (Amuda was promoted to driving her after being in the motorpool and driving me, but she in turn gave us the use of her older BMW for excursions on the weekend).   We had about 100 people at our consultancy, and they and their families were at the wedding; most of them were Christians, a few were Muslims. 

We had a funny joke, in that during my year away from Ghana, I grew a beard (this was prior to my conversion to Orthodoxy), but apparently my appearance prompted the marketing director to sing "Hosanna, Loud Hosanna" as a joke when I arrived (his wedding was the week after Easter on the Gregorian calendar).

Later we fell out of touch, he and his wife divorced, he married an American woman and moved with her to this country before dying of cancer last year.

I feel a deep regret that I never engaged with him much in talking about religion.  In my early 20s, religion was important to me, but I was not where I am now spiritually; I lacked the guts to talk to him about Islam.  I can say his knowledge of the faith was limited; he did not eat pork, but ate everything else, including shellfish; he also ate ham, thinking it was beef (from "hamburger") until one day after our lunch was served, I unwittingly pointed out that the ham and cheese sandwich he was about to devour was pork.  Or rather, I asked, "Oh, so you eat pork then?" and thus wound up eating his ham and cheese sandwich, while he had the rather good looking steak I had ordered.

---

Adam is still alive.  When I met him he was sort of an atheist, a bit fond of the Church of the Sungenius (patronized by the author of his favorite OS), but later converted to Mormonism.  He was attracted to several Mormon doctrines, for example, the idea that God did not create the universe ex nihlo, but rather arranged pre-existing matter; he saw this as a solution to the problem with the Big Bang, that being that the universe that originated from it is not uniform (a problem St. Athanasius presciently anticipated in De Incarnatione).

Also, more pressingly, he was attracted to a Mormon woman, who he married, and the Mormon religion provided him with solutions to several of his problems: social isolation, problems in his family, and dysfunctionaloty from being, well, an extreme geek.  He is considerably more functional now than he was before his conversion, but he and I are not as close as we used to be, although in no sense did we fall out; his conversion to Mormonism occurred at roughly the same time I felt driven to convert to Orthodoxy.  The only Orthodox church in his town is a highly ethnocentric GoArch parish without a permanent priest; I tried to share with him my Orthodox journey, but it was not a winning fight.

---

So please pray for my friends Amuda and Adam.  Please pray also that God will forgive me if due to failures on my part they became mired in their religious choices.  My hope is that God will have mercy on Amuda, who was a loving man and a good friend, and forgive his sins, and that God will lead Adam and his wife into the light of Orthodoxy.

At least the Mormons pray to Jesus.  Was it St. John Maximovitch who told us not to worry about the heretics and heterodox who pray to Jesus, having not been Orthodox, because our Lord is infintely merciful, but instead to focus on holding fast to our own faith?  For if we leave the Catholic Church, we become apostates, and reject Christ like the Jews did, but they, not being a part of it but seeking Jesus anyway, might well receive his mercy.

---

Mormonism is the most immediate threat to the Orthodox faith; it directly proselytizes and seeks to convert our members, into a radical non-Nicene Tritheist faith.  The Mormons are the true Monophysites; we Oriental Orthodox are not monophysites and never were; Mormons are the heirs of Eutyches, the leader of the Monophysites, who we have always anathematized, who made our Lord of a nature different from that of the Father and the Spirit, and in turn, the Eutychians then derived from this an actual Tritheism (I have heard John Philoponus, a 6th century Alexandrian theologian and philosopher, had leanings towards this school; I know we do not venerate him as a saint, and I believe he is a heretic).

If a Muslim kills us, for our Christian Orthodox faith, if we confess Jesus and die for Him, our salvation is assured.  The Muslims are trying to exterminate us in the Middle East, but they have tried before and failed; the Church is God-protected, and already in Iraq we are seeing the early dawn of a rebuilding of the Christian communities of Nineveh.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 03:10:03 PM by Alpha60 »
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #110 on: June 27, 2017, 03:10:58 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.

Yes Popes became very violent at times in the West. Inquisition, Crusades... But what has this to do with the Church of Christ?
Indirectly, a lot. Directly, not much. The problem is that because of all that, as I mentioned in my above post, people have fled from what they think is christianity, because of what evil people have done in its name. Remember and understand: People like the ones I have already mentioned many times(Silouan, Francis of Assisi etc) I respect more than anything. That IS the truth and surpasses everything. But that is no as easy to discover for an honest man as all the filth done by the institutional church of especially the catholic church.

This is what I was trying to say. Papism. Papism and Protestantism are the most disastrous accidents of history. To make a throne of a Pope infallible and to believe in ridiculous doctrines like sola scriptura and bible's inerrancy in everything...
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #111 on: June 27, 2017, 03:12:14 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!

Pretty easy. Popular Victorian enemies of Christianity become Fathers among the Saints. The Canon is reduced to a handful of partial books. "Do as thou wilt, and it harm not Beebert's feelings," becomes the Creed.
Now mind you; I do not at any rate despise christianity as it is practiced by people like Francis of Assisi and Starets Silouan, as I have mentioned so many times. That to me is true christianity. But what institutional christianity(especially in the west) has done in the name of Christ, I despise more than most things. The oppression, the murders, the dogmatic fights, the burning of heretics, the threatenings of hell to poor common people done by a church of power, etc. It is not easy to discover the lovely truth behind all this wickedness done in the name of Christ and God.

Surely you at least occasionally glimpse how much of this is your imagination? For some reason, your ego is pleased to align itself with and even clumsily exaggerate, say, a Schopenhauer. You then give yourself over entirely to negative and histrionic emotion. In the meantime, if you with a cool head can truly say that the prospect of hell is nothing but a sadistic fraud, or, for that matter, that books of the Bible are nothing but sadistic frauds, then, yes, you have a lot of work ahead of you finding the "true Christianity." Please recall that Francis of Assissi or St. Silouan were not men who railed at God or denied the Bible.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #112 on: June 27, 2017, 03:15:27 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #113 on: June 27, 2017, 03:16:27 PM »
So I have a personal contribution to this thread, a prayer request.   Please forgive its length. Two of my best friends were and are Muslim and Mormon respectively.

Amuda was my driver in Ghana when I worked there in 2006-2008.  Over the time we were together however, we developed a deep bomd of friendship.  He was not an extremely devout Muslim (his main observance consisted of ritual ablutions connected with Friday prayers).  He was not wealthy; he was from Burkina Faso, an immigrant to the wealthier and healthier land of Ghana. 

Our friendship became deep, and frequently we explored the countryside on weekends, viaiting the national parks, and going on excursions with my friend Colin, the British (and somewhat Christian) creative director at my client's ad agency (who is still with us and still one of my best friends).  Both Amuda and Charles were older than I; Amuda about ten years and Colin, about 20.  I was 20 when I was invited to work as a network engineer in Ghana; I was a bit of a prodigy in terms of computer systems, had the certs, and was both an expat and relatively inexpensive.  I also enjoyed working on our finnicky Alcatel backbone, which consisted of new equipment, but lousy infrastructure, and quite a bit of oversold equipment and equipment not quite ideal for our systems.

Amuda and I became close to the point that when he was married, I returned to the country, around the turn of the decade or so, and was the best man at his wedding.  This did not entail any religious duties; that part occurred in the morning and I was uninvolved.   Rather, at the wedding reception I was seated at the table of honour with Amuda, his bride, and his older brother, his only living adult relative (he had a child by a previous marriage).

Most of those present were from our firm; Ghanaian companies are like families, and everyone was there, including our managing director (Amuda was promoted to driving her after being in the motorpool and driving me, but she in turn gave us the use of her older BMW for excursions on the weekend).   We had about 100 people at our consultancy, and they and their families were at the wedding; most of them were Christians, a few were Muslims. 

We had a funny joke, in that during my year away from Ghana, I grew a beard (this was prior to my conversion to Orthodoxy), but apparently my appearance prompted the marketing director to sing "Hosanna, Loud Hosanna" as a joke when I arrived (his wedding was the week after Easter on the Gregorian calendar).

Later we fell out of touch, he and his wife divorced, he married an American woman and moved with her to this country before dying of cancer last year.

I feel a deep regret that I never engaged with him much in talking about religion.  In my early 20s, religion was important to me, but I was not where I am now spiritually; I lacked the guts to talk to him about Islam.  I can say his knowledge of the faith was limited; he did not eat pork, but ate everything else, including shellfish; he also ate ham, thinking it was beef (from "hamburger") until one day after our lunch was served, I unwittingly pointed out that the ham and cheese sandwich he was about to devour was pork.  Or rather, I asked, "Oh, so you eat pork then?" and thus wound up eating his ham and cheese sandwich, while he had the rather good looking steak I had ordered.

---

Adam is still alive.  When I met him he was sort of an atheist, a bit fond of the Church of the Sungenius (patronized by the author of his favorite OS), but later converted to Mormonism.  He was attracted to several Mormon doctrines, for example, the idea that God did not create the universe ex nihlo, but rather arranged pre-existing matter; he saw this as a solution to the problem with the Big Bang, that being that the universe that originated from it is not uniform (a problem St. Athanasius presciently anticipated in De Incarnatione).

Also, more pressingly, he was attracted to a Mormon woman, who he married, and the Mormon religion provided him with solutions to several of his problems: social isolation, problems in his family, and dysfunctionaloty from being, well, an extreme geek.  He is considerably more functional now than he was before his conversion, but he and I are not as close as we used to be, although in no sense did we fall out; his conversion to Mormonism occurred at roughly the same time I felt driven to convert to Orthodoxy.  The only Orthodox church in his town is a highly ethnocentric GoArch parish without a permanent priest; I tried to share with him my Orthodox journey, but it was not a winning fight.

---

So please pray for my friends Amuda and Adam.  Please pray also that God will forgive me if due to failures on my part they became mired in their religious choices.  My hope is that God will have mercy on Amuda, who was a loving man and a good friend, and forgive his sins, and that God will lead Adam and his wife into the light of Orthodoxy.

At least the Mormons pray to Jesus.  Was it St. John Maximovitch who told us not to worry about the heretics and heterodox who pray to Jesus, having not been Orthodox, because our Lord is infintely merciful, but instead to focus on holding fast to our own faith?  For if we leave the Catholic Church, we become apostates, and reject Christ like the Jews did, but they, not being a part of it but seeking Jesus anyway, might well receive his mercy.

---

Mormonism is the most immediate threat to the Orthodox faith; it directly proselytizes and seeks to convert our members, into a radical non-Nicene Tritheist faith.  The Mormons are the true Monophysites; we Oriental Orthodox are not monophysites and never were; Mormons are the heirs of Eutyches, the leader of the Monophysites, who we have always anathematized, who made our Lord of a nature different from that of the Father and the Spirit, and in turn, the Eutychians then derived from this an actual Tritheism (I have heard John Philoponus, a 6th century Alexandrian theologian and philosopher, had leanings towards this school; I know we do not venerate him as a saint, and I believe he is a heretic).

If a Muslim kills us, for our Christian Orthodox faith, if we confess Jesus and die for Him, our salvation is assured.  The Muslims are trying to exterminate us in the Middle East, but they have tried before and failed; the Church is God-protected, and already in Iraq we are seeing the early dawn of a rebuilding of the Christian communities of Nineveh.

Noone said that Mormons or Muslims or Jews are bad. We just say our opinion about their beliefs. And I have Muslim friends and I love them so much and I guest a Jew at my room when I was student at University. I had a friend at high school who was a Jehovah's witness.
May the All-Merciful Lord our God, the Almighty rest your muslim friend's soul in peace and to enlight your mormon friends to convert to the true Church!
For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #114 on: June 27, 2017, 03:18:12 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.

Christendom achieved world dominance only after the Reformation and Enlightenment, both of which were massively-successful overthrows of Christianity. Then the worst violence came with the World Wars, when Christendom was largely led by materialist intellectuals. Not to mention just how many centuries had passed. So to seek to compare this with the violence of Islam or Buddhism, which came as part of their origins, may not be ingenuous.
Hmm... What kind of dominance do you mean that he Catholic Church had during the middle ages then? None? I don't know enough about buddhism to say that violence was part of its origins, but I sure can not find any violence in the teachings of Buddha himself. Now Islam is another story. That is a proclamation of war right from the start.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #115 on: June 27, 2017, 03:18:50 PM »
So I have a personal contribution to this thread, a prayer request. ...

Thanks for sharing, Alpha.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #116 on: June 27, 2017, 03:19:48 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.

Christendom achieved world dominance only after the Reformation and Enlightenment, both of which were massively-successful overthrows of Christianity. Then the worst violence came with the World Wars, when Christendom was largely led by materialist intellectuals. Not to mention just how many centuries had passed. So to seek to compare this with the violence of Islam or Buddhism, which came as part of their origins, may not be ingenuous.
Hmm... What kind of dominance do you mean that he Catholic Church had during the middle ages then? None? I don't know enough about buddhism to say that violence was part of its origins, but I sure can not find any violence in the teachings of Buddha himself. Now Islam is another story. That is a proclamation of war right from the start.

You think Southern Europe in the Middle Ages was a world power? and one of unparalleled violence? You do need to study history more.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #117 on: June 27, 2017, 03:24:22 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!

Pretty easy. Popular Victorian enemies of Christianity become Fathers among the Saints. The Canon is reduced to a handful of partial books. "Do as thou wilt, and it harm not Beebert's feelings," becomes the Creed.
Now mind you; I do not at any rate despise christianity as it is practiced by people like Francis of Assisi and Starets Silouan, as I have mentioned so many times. That to me is true christianity. But what institutional christianity(especially in the west) has done in the name of Christ, I despise more than most things. The oppression, the murders, the dogmatic fights, the burning of heretics, the threatenings of hell to poor common people done by a church of power, etc. It is not easy to discover the lovely truth behind all this wickedness done in the name of Christ and God.

Surely you at least occasionally glimpse how much of this is your imagination? For some reason, your ego is pleased to align itself with and even clumsily exaggerate, say, a Schopenhauer. You then give yourself over entirely to negative and histrionic emotion. In the meantime, if you with a cool head can truly say that the prospect of hell is nothing but a sadistic fraud, or, for that matter, that books of the Bible are nothing but sadistic frauds, then, yes, you have a lot of work ahead of you finding the "true Christianity." Please recall that Francis of Assissi or St. Silouan were not men who railed at God or denied the Bible.
Schopenhauer was a brilliant philosopher. I don't care whether he was a brilliant man in private life or not. Beethoven I believe was the greatest genius to have lived. But he lived an awful private life and was a very rude man. We are all sinners. Have you read 'The World as Will and Representation'? It is shockingly beautiful. I think most of the prospects of hell has been nothing but sadistic frauds yes. And I am not alone among "christians"(I don't like to call myself a christian, because I am not one, I rather would say that at best I am about to become one, or trying to be willing to become one) to think that is the case. Or do you think that all christian writers during the patristic era got their ideas about hell right? I would say that the sadistic inventions of many christians can be traced back to book like the book of revelation in the bible yes. And murders and crimes committed by christians can be traced back to the old testament. Now... Does that mean that what the sadists that interpreted the bible in that sadistic sense were right about the bible? No. But that is not what I have said.  Of course I recall that neither Francis nor Silouan ever railed at God or the bible. And I am far from the truth.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 03:25:09 PM by beebert »
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #118 on: June 27, 2017, 03:25:39 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

If that were true, then why did St. Athanasius include it in the canon?  St. Athanasius is kind of the lynchpin, because if tou believe Jesus is God, you're followimg the Nicene orthodoxy that he defended against Arianism, and he also happened to write the defintiive 27-book New Testament canon, and a biography of St. Anthony.

This is the central contradiction of Protestantism: they (mostly, except for Martin Luther and a few others) accept the 27 books of the NT as divinely inspired, but the man who first issued the Paschal Encyclical containing the "final cut" we now use, with slightly more books than the East Syriac Peshitta, and a slightly different set than that proposed by Eusebius of Caesarea (an Arian sympathizer), who articulated the principles of the Nicene creed and was the main force at that council, they ignore.  The doctrines he sets out in De Incarnatione are fundamental to their faith, but the doctrines and implied doctrines of the Vita Antonis would be anathema to them).

Our faith is essentially Athanasian Christianity, and my view is that you can't pick and choose whar parts of St. Athanasius to accept or reject, except on very minor details, because the essential information both the Orthodox and heterodox depend upon in our recept of our respective faiths was articulated, defended, preserved, edited and transmitted through him. 

(Much like its impossible to rationally accept Christianity while rejecting St. Paul, or I would argue as a convicted Theopaschite Orthodox who venerates St. Mary, St. Cyril).
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #119 on: June 27, 2017, 03:26:56 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.

Christendom achieved world dominance only after the Reformation and Enlightenment, both of which were massively-successful overthrows of Christianity. Then the worst violence came with the World Wars, when Christendom was largely led by materialist intellectuals. Not to mention just how many centuries had passed. So to seek to compare this with the violence of Islam or Buddhism, which came as part of their origins, may not be ingenuous.
Hmm... What kind of dominance do you mean that he Catholic Church had during the middle ages then? None? I don't know enough about buddhism to say that violence was part of its origins, but I sure can not find any violence in the teachings of Buddha himself. Now Islam is another story. That is a proclamation of war right from the start.

You think Southern Europe in the Middle Ages was a world power? and one of unparalleled violence? You do need to study history more.
A power in Europe then. It's influence on our minds today is huge. There are a number of examples of forced conversion throughout the history of Christianity: during the Roman Empire, in the Middle Ages, inquisitions in Spain and Goa, and campaigns by Russian rulers.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #120 on: June 27, 2017, 03:27:19 PM »
So I have a personal contribution to this thread, a prayer request. ...

Thanks for sharing, Alpha.

So I have a personal contribution to this thread, a prayer request.   Please forgive its length. Two of my best friends were and are Muslim and Mormon respectively.

Amuda was my driver in Ghana when I worked there in 2006-2008.  Over the time we were together however, we developed a deep bomd of friendship.  He was not an extremely devout Muslim (his main observance consisted of ritual ablutions connected with Friday prayers).  He was not wealthy; he was from Burkina Faso, an immigrant to the wealthier and healthier land of Ghana. 

Our friendship became deep, and frequently we explored the countryside on weekends, viaiting the national parks, and going on excursions with my friend Colin, the British (and somewhat Christian) creative director at my client's ad agency (who is still with us and still one of my best friends).  Both Amuda and Charles were older than I; Amuda about ten years and Colin, about 20.  I was 20 when I was invited to work as a network engineer in Ghana; I was a bit of a prodigy in terms of computer systems, had the certs, and was both an expat and relatively inexpensive.  I also enjoyed working on our finnicky Alcatel backbone, which consisted of new equipment, but lousy infrastructure, and quite a bit of oversold equipment and equipment not quite ideal for our systems.

Amuda and I became close to the point that when he was married, I returned to the country, around the turn of the decade or so, and was the best man at his wedding.  This did not entail any religious duties; that part occurred in the morning and I was uninvolved.   Rather, at the wedding reception I was seated at the table of honour with Amuda, his bride, and his older brother, his only living adult relative (he had a child by a previous marriage).

Most of those present were from our firm; Ghanaian companies are like families, and everyone was there, including our managing director (Amuda was promoted to driving her after being in the motorpool and driving me, but she in turn gave us the use of her older BMW for excursions on the weekend).   We had about 100 people at our consultancy, and they and their families were at the wedding; most of them were Christians, a few were Muslims. 

We had a funny joke, in that during my year away from Ghana, I grew a beard (this was prior to my conversion to Orthodoxy), but apparently my appearance prompted the marketing director to sing "Hosanna, Loud Hosanna" as a joke when I arrived (his wedding was the week after Easter on the Gregorian calendar).

Later we fell out of touch, he and his wife divorced, he married an American woman and moved with her to this country before dying of cancer last year.

I feel a deep regret that I never engaged with him much in talking about religion.  In my early 20s, religion was important to me, but I was not where I am now spiritually; I lacked the guts to talk to him about Islam.  I can say his knowledge of the faith was limited; he did not eat pork, but ate everything else, including shellfish; he also ate ham, thinking it was beef (from "hamburger") until one day after our lunch was served, I unwittingly pointed out that the ham and cheese sandwich he was about to devour was pork.  Or rather, I asked, "Oh, so you eat pork then?" and thus wound up eating his ham and cheese sandwich, while he had the rather good looking steak I had ordered.

---

Adam is still alive.  When I met him he was sort of an atheist, a bit fond of the Church of the Sungenius (patronized by the author of his favorite OS), but later converted to Mormonism.  He was attracted to several Mormon doctrines, for example, the idea that God did not create the universe ex nihlo, but rather arranged pre-existing matter; he saw this as a solution to the problem with the Big Bang, that being that the universe that originated from it is not uniform (a problem St. Athanasius presciently anticipated in De Incarnatione).

Also, more pressingly, he was attracted to a Mormon woman, who he married, and the Mormon religion provided him with solutions to several of his problems: social isolation, problems in his family, and dysfunctionaloty from being, well, an extreme geek.  He is considerably more functional now than he was before his conversion, but he and I are not as close as we used to be, although in no sense did we fall out; his conversion to Mormonism occurred at roughly the same time I felt driven to convert to Orthodoxy.  The only Orthodox church in his town is a highly ethnocentric GoArch parish without a permanent priest; I tried to share with him my Orthodox journey, but it was not a winning fight.

---

So please pray for my friends Amuda and Adam.  Please pray also that God will forgive me if due to failures on my part they became mired in their religious choices.  My hope is that God will have mercy on Amuda, who was a loving man and a good friend, and forgive his sins, and that God will lead Adam and his wife into the light of Orthodoxy.

At least the Mormons pray to Jesus.  Was it St. John Maximovitch who told us not to worry about the heretics and heterodox who pray to Jesus, having not been Orthodox, because our Lord is infintely merciful, but instead to focus on holding fast to our own faith?  For if we leave the Catholic Church, we become apostates, and reject Christ like the Jews did, but they, not being a part of it but seeking Jesus anyway, might well receive his mercy.

---

Mormonism is the most immediate threat to the Orthodox faith; it directly proselytizes and seeks to convert our members, into a radical non-Nicene Tritheist faith.  The Mormons are the true Monophysites; we Oriental Orthodox are not monophysites and never were; Mormons are the heirs of Eutyches, the leader of the Monophysites, who we have always anathematized, who made our Lord of a nature different from that of the Father and the Spirit, and in turn, the Eutychians then derived from this an actual Tritheism (I have heard John Philoponus, a 6th century Alexandrian theologian and philosopher, had leanings towards this school; I know we do not venerate him as a saint, and I believe he is a heretic).

If a Muslim kills us, for our Christian Orthodox faith, if we confess Jesus and die for Him, our salvation is assured.  The Muslims are trying to exterminate us in the Middle East, but they have tried before and failed; the Church is God-protected, and already in Iraq we are seeing the early dawn of a rebuilding of the Christian communities of Nineveh.

Noone said that Mormons or Muslims or Jews are bad. We just say our opinion about their beliefs. And I have Muslim friends and I love them so much and I guest a Jew at my room when I was student at University. I had a friend at high school who was a Jehovah's witness.
May the All-Merciful Lord our God, the Almighty rest your muslim friend's soul in peace and to enlight your mormon friends to convert to the true Church!

Thank you both.  Please pray for me, a sinner.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #121 on: June 27, 2017, 03:28:32 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.

Christendom achieved world dominance only after the Reformation and Enlightenment, both of which were massively-successful overthrows of Christianity. Then the worst violence came with the World Wars, when Christendom was largely led by materialist intellectuals. Not to mention just how many centuries had passed. So to seek to compare this with the violence of Islam or Buddhism, which came as part of their origins, may not be ingenuous.
Hmm... What kind of dominance do you mean that he Catholic Church had during the middle ages then? None? I don't know enough about buddhism to say that violence was part of its origins, but I sure can not find any violence in the teachings of Buddha himself. Now Islam is another story. That is a proclamation of war right from the start.

You think Southern Europe in the Middle Ages was a world power? and one of unparalleled violence? You do need to study history more.
A power in Europe then. It's influence on our minds today is huge. There are a number of examples of forced conversion throughout the history of Christianity: during the Roman Empire, in the Middle Ages, inquisitions in Spain and Goa, and campaigns by Russian rulers.

You're conflating the Middle Ages with the Renaissance.

By the way, I hate how SDAs insist the Dark Ages lasted from 538 (an arbitrarily selected date) until 1798, in order to prop up Ellen G. White's prophecies.

The SDAs are more dangerous than Mormons, because of late, the growth rate of Mormonism has slowed a bit, whereas Adventism is expanding; ir looks more like authentic Christianity, they pay lip service to the creed, but their church believes in evil doctrines that contradict the creed, the blasphemy that Jesus Christ is also St. Michael, et cetera.  Of late SDAs have been much more active targeting Orthodox than the Mormons.

And Billy Graham did us a huge disservice by endorsing them as Christians many uears ago; this is a bit of a nightmare because during the Soviet era, Billy Graham was given a blessing to preach in the USSR on several occasions by the Moscow Patriarch, who was desperate to get some form of catechesis or evangelism even if it meant using a heterodox celebrity pastor from America (the Russian Orthodox church does care about Billy Graham however; I saw a photo of Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev cisiting him on his 99th birthday, in which one could see pure love).

But because of that, amd other related errors, doors have been opened by which both SDAs and Mormons can try to claim some legitimacy which otherwise would be denied them.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 03:35:28 PM by Alpha60 »
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

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This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alkis

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #122 on: June 27, 2017, 03:29:29 PM »
Revelation is pretty clear if someone is familiar with Old Testament. Otherwise many can fall to many errors. It is the story of Jesus and of the world from creation till the age to come. The lake of fire the book says that is the second death. The hell. The hell that our Fathers say that is a spiritual state and not a created place with torments.
For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #123 on: June 27, 2017, 03:31:38 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.

Christendom achieved world dominance only after the Reformation and Enlightenment, both of which were massively-successful overthrows of Christianity. Then the worst violence came with the World Wars, when Christendom was largely led by materialist intellectuals. Not to mention just how many centuries had passed. So to seek to compare this with the violence of Islam or Buddhism, which came as part of their origins, may not be ingenuous.
Hmm... What kind of dominance do you mean that he Catholic Church had during the middle ages then? None? I don't know enough about buddhism to say that violence was part of its origins, but I sure can not find any violence in the teachings of Buddha himself. Now Islam is another story. That is a proclamation of war right from the start.

Pre-Reformation Roman Catholicism: Being at war with the Church is the same as being a traitor to the State.
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Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #124 on: June 27, 2017, 03:31:49 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.

Christendom achieved world dominance only after the Reformation and Enlightenment, both of which were massively-successful overthrows of Christianity. Then the worst violence came with the World Wars, when Christendom was largely led by materialist intellectuals. Not to mention just how many centuries had passed. So to seek to compare this with the violence of Islam or Buddhism, which came as part of their origins, may not be ingenuous.
Hmm... What kind of dominance do you mean that he Catholic Church had during the middle ages then? None? I don't know enough about buddhism to say that violence was part of its origins, but I sure can not find any violence in the teachings of Buddha himself. Now Islam is another story. That is a proclamation of war right from the start.

You think Southern Europe in the Middle Ages was a world power? and one of unparalleled violence? You do need to study history more.
A power in Europe then. It's influence on our minds today is huge. There are a number of examples of forced conversion throughout the history of Christianity: during the Roman Empire, in the Middle Ages, inquisitions in Spain and Goa, and campaigns by Russian rulers.

You're comflating the Middle Ages with the Renaissance.
Sometimes the Renaissance is included to the late middle ages. Let us just say late middle ages and the Rennaissance.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #125 on: June 27, 2017, 03:32:10 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!

Pretty easy. Popular Victorian enemies of Christianity become Fathers among the Saints. The Canon is reduced to a handful of partial books. "Do as thou wilt, and it harm not Beebert's feelings," becomes the Creed.
Now mind you; I do not at any rate despise christianity as it is practiced by people like Francis of Assisi and Starets Silouan, as I have mentioned so many times. That to me is true christianity. But what institutional christianity(especially in the west) has done in the name of Christ, I despise more than most things. The oppression, the murders, the dogmatic fights, the burning of heretics, the threatenings of hell to poor common people done by a church of power, etc. It is not easy to discover the lovely truth behind all this wickedness done in the name of Christ and God.

Surely you at least occasionally glimpse how much of this is your imagination? For some reason, your ego is pleased to align itself with and even clumsily exaggerate, say, a Schopenhauer. You then give yourself over entirely to negative and histrionic emotion. In the meantime, if you with a cool head can truly say that the prospect of hell is nothing but a sadistic fraud, or, for that matter, that books of the Bible are nothing but sadistic frauds, then, yes, you have a lot of work ahead of you finding the "true Christianity." Please recall that Francis of Assissi or St. Silouan were not men who railed at God or denied the Bible.
Schopenhauer was a brilliant philosopher. I don't care whether he was a brilliant man in private life or not. Beethoven I believe was the greatest genius to have lived. But he lived an awful private life and was a very rude man. We are all sinners. Have you read 'The World as Will and Representation'? It is shockingly beautiful. I think most of the prospects of hell has been nothing but sadistic frauds yes. And I am not alone among "christians"(I don't like to call myself a christian, because I am not one, I rather would say that at best I am about to become one, or trying to be willing to become one) to think that is the case. Or do you think that all christian writers during the patristic era got their ideas about hell right? I would say that the sadistic inventions of many christians can be traced back to book like the book of revelation in the bible yes. And murders and crimes committed by christians can be traced back to the old testament. Now... Does that mean that what the sadists that interpreted the bible in that sadistic sense were right about the bible? No. But that is not what I have said.  Of course I recall that neither Francis nor Silouan ever railed at God or the bible. And I am far from the truth.

I'm more into Heidegger right now.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #126 on: June 27, 2017, 03:32:30 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.

Christendom achieved world dominance only after the Reformation and Enlightenment, both of which were massively-successful overthrows of Christianity. Then the worst violence came with the World Wars, when Christendom was largely led by materialist intellectuals. Not to mention just how many centuries had passed. So to seek to compare this with the violence of Islam or Buddhism, which came as part of their origins, may not be ingenuous.
Hmm... What kind of dominance do you mean that he Catholic Church had during the middle ages then? None? I don't know enough about buddhism to say that violence was part of its origins, but I sure can not find any violence in the teachings of Buddha himself. Now Islam is another story. That is a proclamation of war right from the start.

You think Southern Europe in the Middle Ages was a world power? and one of unparalleled violence? You do need to study history more.
A power in Europe then. It's influence on our minds today is huge. There are a number of examples of forced conversion throughout the history of Christianity: during the Roman Empire, in the Middle Ages, inquisitions in Spain and Goa, and campaigns by Russian rulers.

Europe was a power in medieval Europe? What exactly is it you're complaining about at this point? What you said is that Christianity is the most violent movement in history, along with Islam (whatever that bit means). I made some qualifications from history, so now you're saying -- Christianity hurt your feelings because you're European and it -- what -- had a hand in your education? -- set legal precedents that might affect you? At this point I don't even know what you're complaining about, but whatever it is, we've come a long way from "most violent religion in the history of the world."
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Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #127 on: June 27, 2017, 03:35:14 PM »
Revelation is pretty clear if someone is familiar with Old Testament. Otherwise many can fall to many errors. It is the story of Jesus and of the world from creation till the age to come. The lake of fire the book says that is the second death. The hell. The hell that our Fathers say that is a spiritual state and not a created place with torments.
Some of the fathers say that about hell yes. And I prefer that interpretation. But it is not clear from reading the text. And it is not what all church fathers taught. Have you read about John Chrysostom's view for example? Now I take his view with a grain of salt but still. Most don't. Or Augustine's view? Also to be taken with a grain of salt but still. Many don't. Etc.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 03:35:33 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #128 on: June 27, 2017, 03:36:50 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.

Christendom achieved world dominance only after the Reformation and Enlightenment, both of which were massively-successful overthrows of Christianity. Then the worst violence came with the World Wars, when Christendom was largely led by materialist intellectuals. Not to mention just how many centuries had passed. So to seek to compare this with the violence of Islam or Buddhism, which came as part of their origins, may not be ingenuous.
Hmm... What kind of dominance do you mean that he Catholic Church had during the middle ages then? None? I don't know enough about buddhism to say that violence was part of its origins, but I sure can not find any violence in the teachings of Buddha himself. Now Islam is another story. That is a proclamation of war right from the start.

You think Southern Europe in the Middle Ages was a world power? and one of unparalleled violence? You do need to study history more.
A power in Europe then. It's influence on our minds today is huge. There are a number of examples of forced conversion throughout the history of Christianity: during the Roman Empire, in the Middle Ages, inquisitions in Spain and Goa, and campaigns by Russian rulers.

Europe was a power in medieval Europe? What exactly is it you're complaining about at this point? What you said is that Christianity is the most violent movement in history, along with Islam (whatever that bit means). I made some qualifications from history, so now you're saying -- Christianity hurt your feelings because you're European and it -- what -- had a hand in your education? -- set legal precedents that might affect you? At this point I don't even know what you're complaining about, but whatever it is, we've come a long way from "most violent religion in the history of the world."
Oh my... You distort what I am talking about. Let us make it simple: Did christianity commit all the atrocities I mentioned before or not?
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #129 on: June 27, 2017, 03:40:43 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!

Pretty easy. Popular Victorian enemies of Christianity become Fathers among the Saints. The Canon is reduced to a handful of partial books. "Do as thou wilt, and it harm not Beebert's feelings," becomes the Creed.
Now mind you; I do not at any rate despise christianity as it is practiced by people like Francis of Assisi and Starets Silouan, as I have mentioned so many times. That to me is true christianity. But what institutional christianity(especially in the west) has done in the name of Christ, I despise more than most things. The oppression, the murders, the dogmatic fights, the burning of heretics, the threatenings of hell to poor common people done by a church of power, etc. It is not easy to discover the lovely truth behind all this wickedness done in the name of Christ and God.

Surely you at least occasionally glimpse how much of this is your imagination? For some reason, your ego is pleased to align itself with and even clumsily exaggerate, say, a Schopenhauer. You then give yourself over entirely to negative and histrionic emotion. In the meantime, if you with a cool head can truly say that the prospect of hell is nothing but a sadistic fraud, or, for that matter, that books of the Bible are nothing but sadistic frauds, then, yes, you have a lot of work ahead of you finding the "true Christianity." Please recall that Francis of Assissi or St. Silouan were not men who railed at God or denied the Bible.
Schopenhauer was a brilliant philosopher. I don't care whether he was a brilliant man in private life or not. Beethoven I believe was the greatest genius to have lived. But he lived an awful private life and was a very rude man. We are all sinners. Have you read 'The World as Will and Representation'? It is shockingly beautiful. I think most of the prospects of hell has been nothing but sadistic frauds yes. And I am not alone among "christians"(I don't like to call myself a christian, because I am not one, I rather would say that at best I am about to become one, or trying to be willing to become one) to think that is the case. Or do you think that all christian writers during the patristic era got their ideas about hell right? I would say that the sadistic inventions of many christians can be traced back to book like the book of revelation in the bible yes. And murders and crimes committed by christians can be traced back to the old testament. Now... Does that mean that what the sadists that interpreted the bible in that sadistic sense were right about the bible? No. But that is not what I have said.  Of course I recall that neither Francis nor Silouan ever railed at God or the bible. And I am far from the truth.

I'm more into Heidegger right now.
Have never read Heidegger. But don't know what that has to do with what i said haha... If existential philosophy: Nietzsche, Berdyaev and Kierkegaard(and Dostoevsky if one would like to count him in)will do it for me thus far. I like Camus too. I have heard a lot of positive things about Heidegger, but also bad things. Care to enlighten me?
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Offline Alkis

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #130 on: June 27, 2017, 03:43:21 PM »
Revelation is pretty clear if someone is familiar with Old Testament. Otherwise many can fall to many errors. It is the story of Jesus and of the world from creation till the age to come. The lake of fire the book says that is the second death. The hell. The hell that our Fathers say that is a spiritual state and not a created place with torments.
Some of the fathers say that about hell yes. And I prefer that interpretation. But it is not clear from reading the text. And it is not what all church fathers taught. Have you read about John Chrysostom's view for example? Now I take his view with a grain of salt but still. Most don't. Or Augustine's view? Also to be taken with a grain of salt but still. Many don't. Etc.

Yes some took in literally. But if we read the Scriptures in many passages (almost the whole Bible) uses imagery, symbols, icons, etc... So it must be understood metaphorically. It is a prophetic book, an apocalyptic literature. Full of symbols, allegories and imagery and languange from Old Testament and ancient Israel's life as for example the 24 elders. During tamid offering at the Temple, 24 representators of Israel might be there to see if the offering was offered in the name of all Israel by the priests. Every week the representators changed with draw because Israelites had their jobs and they couldn't be all twice a day to attend the liturgy.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 03:44:32 PM by Alkis »
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #131 on: June 27, 2017, 03:47:55 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!

Pretty easy. Popular Victorian enemies of Christianity become Fathers among the Saints. The Canon is reduced to a handful of partial books. "Do as thou wilt, and it harm not Beebert's feelings," becomes the Creed.
Now mind you; I do not at any rate despise christianity as it is practiced by people like Francis of Assisi and Starets Silouan, as I have mentioned so many times. That to me is true christianity. But what institutional christianity(especially in the west) has done in the name of Christ, I despise more than most things. The oppression, the murders, the dogmatic fights, the burning of heretics, the threatenings of hell to poor common people done by a church of power, etc. It is not easy to discover the lovely truth behind all this wickedness done in the name of Christ and God.

Surely you at least occasionally glimpse how much of this is your imagination? For some reason, your ego is pleased to align itself with and even clumsily exaggerate, say, a Schopenhauer. You then give yourself over entirely to negative and histrionic emotion. In the meantime, if you with a cool head can truly say that the prospect of hell is nothing but a sadistic fraud, or, for that matter, that books of the Bible are nothing but sadistic frauds, then, yes, you have a lot of work ahead of you finding the "true Christianity." Please recall that Francis of Assissi or St. Silouan were not men who railed at God or denied the Bible.
Schopenhauer was a brilliant philosopher. I don't care whether he was a brilliant man in private life or not. Beethoven I believe was the greatest genius to have lived. But he lived an awful private life and was a very rude man. We are all sinners. Have you read 'The World as Will and Representation'? It is shockingly beautiful. I think most of the prospects of hell has been nothing but sadistic frauds yes. And I am not alone among "christians"(I don't like to call myself a christian, because I am not one, I rather would say that at best I am about to become one, or trying to be willing to become one) to think that is the case. Or do you think that all christian writers during the patristic era got their ideas about hell right? I would say that the sadistic inventions of many christians can be traced back to book like the book of revelation in the bible yes. And murders and crimes committed by christians can be traced back to the old testament. Now... Does that mean that what the sadists that interpreted the bible in that sadistic sense were right about the bible? No. But that is not what I have said.  Of course I recall that neither Francis nor Silouan ever railed at God or the bible. And I am far from the truth.

I'm more into Heidegger right now.
Have never read Heidegger. But don't know what that has to do with what i said haha... If existential philosophy: Nietzsche, Berdyaev and Kierkegaard(and Dostoevsky if one would like to count him in)will do it for me thus far. I like Camus too. I have heard a lot of positive things about Heidegger, but also bad things. Care to enlighten me?

He's a silly man. His claim to fame is (besides a patented impenetrable writing-style, rather like a very boring James Joyce) supposedly negating the essense/existence distinction by -- get this -- claiming time is primeval to either.
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Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #132 on: June 27, 2017, 03:49:47 PM »
Revelation is pretty clear if someone is familiar with Old Testament. Otherwise many can fall to many errors. It is the story of Jesus and of the world from creation till the age to come. The lake of fire the book says that is the second death. The hell. The hell that our Fathers say that is a spiritual state and not a created place with torments.
Some of the fathers say that about hell yes. And I prefer that interpretation. But it is not clear from reading the text. And it is not what all church fathers taught. Have you read about John Chrysostom's view for example? Now I take his view with a grain of salt but still. Most don't. Or Augustine's view? Also to be taken with a grain of salt but still. Many don't. Etc.

Yes some took in literally. But if we read the Scriptures in many passages (almost the whole Bible) uses imagery, symbols, icons, etc... So it must be understood metaphorically. It is a prophetic book, an apocalyptic literature. Full of symbols, allegories and imagery and languange from Old Testament and ancient Israel's life as for example the 24 elders. During tamid offering at the Temple, 24 representators of Israel might be there to see if the offering was offered in the name of all Israel by the priests. Every week the representators changed with draw because Israelites had their jobs and they couldn't be all twice a day to attend the liturgy.
Which is why I like Origen.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #133 on: June 27, 2017, 03:50:33 PM »
4)  The point Antonious Nikolas made about the Mormons being a more corrupting influence is a good point, and I almost agreed with it.  But I think I may have a refutation to that: things like Iconoclasm was part of an "Islamization" of Christianity.  Islam has had pretty big effects on the Orthodox world.  I heard (?) that they have effected the way our bishops dress and function and that some of these things are relics from us trying to deal with being in an Islamic culture.   I think maybe the claim that right now in the west, Mormonism is going to be more corrupting and subversive.

I'll try and fact check my claim about Bishop garb if someone wants me to

Apples and oranges.  I never claimed that Mormonism could corrupt or influence Orthodox Christianity or even the smack-cheeked mainstream Evangelicalism it outwardly resembles.  What I claimed was that many mainstream American Christians regard Mormonism and related cults as other Christian sects and so are more easily seduced by them than they would be by a religion as manifestly foreign (to them) as Islam.

As to Islam's role in the Iconoclast movement and other influences it may or may not have had on Orthodox Christianity, I see that as a peripheral issue, and I'll leave it to others to debate, but please do elaborate/fact check on the bishop's garb point.

I don't know what mormon believe. About islam it is difficult for me to hate, Some of my childhood friend are muslim and my first love was a muslim women. There is not one islam, i appreciate Sufism and most of my read now are sufism poetry, i like the popular culture in islam

Orthodox Sunni Islam, the violent and dangerous one, is 90% of Muslims. Many jihadis have been Sufis.

I feel that the more tolerant and non-violent religions are often the more "dangerous" ones, with regard to ideology, and it requires more diligent and competent minds.  It's easy to reject a religion that is outright physically dangerous.  You don't need to have a deeply rooted and strong faith for that, even if many succumbed to that religion out of fear, they know deep down they really didn't accept the religion out of personal conviction, but for earthy reasons.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #134 on: June 27, 2017, 03:51:19 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!

Pretty easy. Popular Victorian enemies of Christianity become Fathers among the Saints. The Canon is reduced to a handful of partial books. "Do as thou wilt, and it harm not Beebert's feelings," becomes the Creed.
Now mind you; I do not at any rate despise christianity as it is practiced by people like Francis of Assisi and Starets Silouan, as I have mentioned so many times. That to me is true christianity. But what institutional christianity(especially in the west) has done in the name of Christ, I despise more than most things. The oppression, the murders, the dogmatic fights, the burning of heretics, the threatenings of hell to poor common people done by a church of power, etc. It is not easy to discover the lovely truth behind all this wickedness done in the name of Christ and God.

Surely you at least occasionally glimpse how much of this is your imagination? For some reason, your ego is pleased to align itself with and even clumsily exaggerate, say, a Schopenhauer. You then give yourself over entirely to negative and histrionic emotion. In the meantime, if you with a cool head can truly say that the prospect of hell is nothing but a sadistic fraud, or, for that matter, that books of the Bible are nothing but sadistic frauds, then, yes, you have a lot of work ahead of you finding the "true Christianity." Please recall that Francis of Assissi or St. Silouan were not men who railed at God or denied the Bible.
Schopenhauer was a brilliant philosopher. I don't care whether he was a brilliant man in private life or not. Beethoven I believe was the greatest genius to have lived. But he lived an awful private life and was a very rude man. We are all sinners. Have you read 'The World as Will and Representation'? It is shockingly beautiful. I think most of the prospects of hell has been nothing but sadistic frauds yes. And I am not alone among "christians"(I don't like to call myself a christian, because I am not one, I rather would say that at best I am about to become one, or trying to be willing to become one) to think that is the case. Or do you think that all christian writers during the patristic era got their ideas about hell right? I would say that the sadistic inventions of many christians can be traced back to book like the book of revelation in the bible yes. And murders and crimes committed by christians can be traced back to the old testament. Now... Does that mean that what the sadists that interpreted the bible in that sadistic sense were right about the bible? No. But that is not what I have said.  Of course I recall that neither Francis nor Silouan ever railed at God or the bible. And I am far from the truth.

I'm more into Heidegger right now.
Have never read Heidegger. But don't know what that has to do with what i said haha... If existential philosophy: Nietzsche, Berdyaev and Kierkegaard(and Dostoevsky if one would like to count him in)will do it for me thus far. I like Camus too. I have heard a lot of positive things about Heidegger, but also bad things. Care to enlighten me?

He's a silly man. His claim to fame is (besides a patented impenetrable writing-style, rather like a very boring James Joyce) supposedly negating the essense/existence distinction by -- get this -- claiming time is primeval to either.
Then perhaps I shouldn't read him. But didn't he have quite a close relationship, or at least some sort of relationship, with the catholic church?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)