Author Topic: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?  (Read 4439 times)

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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #135 on: June 27, 2017, 03:52:11 PM »
It would have been better if [Calvin] never had been born surely.

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Offline Alkis

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #136 on: June 27, 2017, 03:53:17 PM »
Revelation is pretty clear if someone is familiar with Old Testament. Otherwise many can fall to many errors. It is the story of Jesus and of the world from creation till the age to come. The lake of fire the book says that is the second death. The hell. The hell that our Fathers say that is a spiritual state and not a created place with torments.
Some of the fathers say that about hell yes. And I prefer that interpretation. But it is not clear from reading the text. And it is not what all church fathers taught. Have you read about John Chrysostom's view for example? Now I take his view with a grain of salt but still. Most don't. Or Augustine's view? Also to be taken with a grain of salt but still. Many don't. Etc.

Yes some took in literally. But if we read the Scriptures in many passages (almost the whole Bible) uses imagery, symbols, icons, etc... So it must be understood metaphorically. It is a prophetic book, an apocalyptic literature. Full of symbols, allegories and imagery and languange from Old Testament and ancient Israel's life as for example the 24 elders. During tamid offering at the Temple, 24 representators of Israel might be there to see if the offering was offered in the name of all Israel by the priests. Every week the representators changed with draw because Israelites had their jobs and they couldn't be all twice a day to attend the liturgy.
Which is why I like Origen.

I love him and admire him too. And not only Origen. And other Fathers interpreted Scriptures allegorically. I venerate all of our saints and Fathers. They tried the best for the Church. They taught us both literally and allegorically the Scriptures and we have them as a guide to our journey to deification.
For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #137 on: June 27, 2017, 04:02:53 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!

Pretty easy. Popular Victorian enemies of Christianity become Fathers among the Saints. The Canon is reduced to a handful of partial books. "Do as thou wilt, and it harm not Beebert's feelings," becomes the Creed.
Now mind you; I do not at any rate despise christianity as it is practiced by people like Francis of Assisi and Starets Silouan, as I have mentioned so many times. That to me is true christianity. But what institutional christianity(especially in the west) has done in the name of Christ, I despise more than most things. The oppression, the murders, the dogmatic fights, the burning of heretics, the threatenings of hell to poor common people done by a church of power, etc. It is not easy to discover the lovely truth behind all this wickedness done in the name of Christ and God.

Surely you at least occasionally glimpse how much of this is your imagination? For some reason, your ego is pleased to align itself with and even clumsily exaggerate, say, a Schopenhauer. You then give yourself over entirely to negative and histrionic emotion. In the meantime, if you with a cool head can truly say that the prospect of hell is nothing but a sadistic fraud, or, for that matter, that books of the Bible are nothing but sadistic frauds, then, yes, you have a lot of work ahead of you finding the "true Christianity." Please recall that Francis of Assissi or St. Silouan were not men who railed at God or denied the Bible.
Schopenhauer was a brilliant philosopher. I don't care whether he was a brilliant man in private life or not. Beethoven I believe was the greatest genius to have lived. But he lived an awful private life and was a very rude man. We are all sinners. Have you read 'The World as Will and Representation'? It is shockingly beautiful. I think most of the prospects of hell has been nothing but sadistic frauds yes. And I am not alone among "christians"(I don't like to call myself a christian, because I am not one, I rather would say that at best I am about to become one, or trying to be willing to become one) to think that is the case. Or do you think that all christian writers during the patristic era got their ideas about hell right? I would say that the sadistic inventions of many christians can be traced back to book like the book of revelation in the bible yes. And murders and crimes committed by christians can be traced back to the old testament. Now... Does that mean that what the sadists that interpreted the bible in that sadistic sense were right about the bible? No. But that is not what I have said.  Of course I recall that neither Francis nor Silouan ever railed at God or the bible. And I am far from the truth.

I can't believe you actually wrote all this out plain as day. Schopenhauer was a wretched little man in every way, intellectually, personally, even physically. Unlike Russell's notorious claim, he was an atheist unable even to enjoy his breakfast. Yet, yes, he made himself a grandiosely bitter enemy of God and Christ, humankind, and for some reason women. Anyone who can read him with a straight face and unqueasy stomach has lost all claim to my respect, even if that reader had the excuse of being, oh, I don't know, a Deutschephile thirteen-year-old. Since you in fact have read him at some length, I can't grant you the excuse of ignorance that was just drawn to some allusion about him (I've known teenagers for whom this was the case). Therefore, that you not only support the man's blasphemous tirades but would run him up the flagpole of your own personal religion and parade about openly beneath it is -- well. I assume you do it to be shocking.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 04:05:27 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #138 on: June 27, 2017, 04:26:33 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)
Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!

Pretty easy. Popular Victorian enemies of Christianity become Fathers among the Saints. The Canon is reduced to a handful of partial books. "Do as thou wilt, and it harm not Beebert's feelings," becomes the Creed.
Now mind you; I do not at any rate despise christianity as it is practiced by people like Francis of Assisi and Starets Silouan, as I have mentioned so many times. That to me is true christianity. But what institutional christianity(especially in the west) has done in the name of Christ, I despise more than most things. The oppression, the murders, the dogmatic fights, the burning of heretics, the threatenings of hell to poor common people done by a church of power, etc. It is not easy to discover the lovely truth behind all this wickedness done in the name of Christ and God.

Surely you at least occasionally glimpse how much of this is your imagination? For some reason, your ego is pleased to align itself with and even clumsily exaggerate, say, a Schopenhauer. You then give yourself over entirely to negative and histrionic emotion. In the meantime, if you with a cool head can truly say that the prospect of hell is nothing but a sadistic fraud, or, for that matter, that books of the Bible are nothing but sadistic frauds, then, yes, you have a lot of work ahead of you finding the "true Christianity." Please recall that Francis of Assissi or St. Silouan were not men who railed at God or denied the Bible.
Schopenhauer was a brilliant philosopher. I don't care whether he was a brilliant man in private life or not. Beethoven I believe was the greatest genius to have lived. But he lived an awful private life and was a very rude man. We are all sinners. Have you read 'The World as Will and Representation'? It is shockingly beautiful. I think most of the prospects of hell has been nothing but sadistic frauds yes. And I am not alone among "christians"(I don't like to call myself a christian, because I am not one, I rather would say that at best I am about to become one, or trying to be willing to become one) to think that is the case. Or do you think that all christian writers during the patristic era got their ideas about hell right? I would say that the sadistic inventions of many christians can be traced back to book like the book of revelation in the bible yes. And murders and crimes committed by christians can be traced back to the old testament. Now... Does that mean that what the sadists that interpreted the bible in that sadistic sense were right about the bible? No. But that is not what I have said.  Of course I recall that neither Francis nor Silouan ever railed at God or the bible. And I am far from the truth.

I can't believe you actually wrote all this out plain as day. Schopenhauer was a wretched little man in every way, intellectually, personally, even physically. Unlike Russell's notorious claim, he was an atheist unable even to enjoy his breakfast. Yet, yes, he made himself a grandiosely bitter enemy of God and Christ, humankind, and for some reason women. Anyone who can read him with a straight face and unqueasy stomach has lost all claim to my respect, even if that reader had the excuse of being, oh, I don't know, a Deutschephile thirteen-year-old. Since you in fact have read him at some length, I can't grant you the excuse of ignorance that was just drawn to some allusion about him (I've known teenagers for whom this was the case). Therefore, that you not only support the man's blasphemous tirades but would run him up the flagpole of your own personal religion and parade about openly beneath it is -- well. I assume you do it to be shocking.
He admired certain christian traditions and praised them. Didn't you by the way respect Tolstoy? Perhaps it is time for you to lose your respect for him. I guess there are things you don't get.

 "Do you know what this summer has meant for me? Constant raptures over Schopenhauer and a whole series of spiritual delights which I've never experienced before. ... no student has ever studied so much on his course, and learned so much, as I have this summer. Schopenhauer is one of the greatest geniuses among men..."

Who said that you think? Only an idiot would read Schopenhauer and then simply pronounce him as being some stupid and wretched loser only to be appreciated by 13-year olds or whatever...
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 04:35:34 PM by beebert »
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Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #139 on: June 27, 2017, 04:39:06 PM »
Do you know what else the same man said?

"Purely intellectual philosophy [which renounces the poetic and religious interpretation of things] is an ugly Western product; and neither the Greeks – Plato – nor Schopenhauer, nor the Russian thinkers understood philosophy in this way"

Why do you think Schopenhauer is mentioned there?
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #140 on: June 27, 2017, 04:47:55 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!

Pretty easy. Popular Victorian enemies of Christianity become Fathers among the Saints. The Canon is reduced to a handful of partial books. "Do as thou wilt, and it harm not Beebert's feelings," becomes the Creed.
Now mind you; I do not at any rate despise christianity as it is practiced by people like Francis of Assisi and Starets Silouan, as I have mentioned so many times. That to me is true christianity. But what institutional christianity(especially in the west) has done in the name of Christ, I despise more than most things. The oppression, the murders, the dogmatic fights, the burning of heretics, the threatenings of hell to poor common people done by a church of power, etc. It is not easy to discover the lovely truth behind all this wickedness done in the name of Christ and God.

Surely you at least occasionally glimpse how much of this is your imagination? For some reason, your ego is pleased to align itself with and even clumsily exaggerate, say, a Schopenhauer. You then give yourself over entirely to negative and histrionic emotion. In the meantime, if you with a cool head can truly say that the prospect of hell is nothing but a sadistic fraud, or, for that matter, that books of the Bible are nothing but sadistic frauds, then, yes, you have a lot of work ahead of you finding the "true Christianity." Please recall that Francis of Assissi or St. Silouan were not men who railed at God or denied the Bible.
Schopenhauer was a brilliant philosopher. I don't care whether he was a brilliant man in private life or not. Beethoven I believe was the greatest genius to have lived. But he lived an awful private life and was a very rude man. We are all sinners. Have you read 'The World as Will and Representation'? It is shockingly beautiful. I think most of the prospects of hell has been nothing but sadistic frauds yes. And I am not alone among "christians"(I don't like to call myself a christian, because I am not one, I rather would say that at best I am about to become one, or trying to be willing to become one) to think that is the case. Or do you think that all christian writers during the patristic era got their ideas about hell right? I would say that the sadistic inventions of many christians can be traced back to book like the book of revelation in the bible yes. And murders and crimes committed by christians can be traced back to the old testament. Now... Does that mean that what the sadists that interpreted the bible in that sadistic sense were right about the bible? No. But that is not what I have said.  Of course I recall that neither Francis nor Silouan ever railed at God or the bible. And I am far from the truth.

I'm more into Heidegger right now.
Have never read Heidegger. But don't know what that has to do with what i said haha... If existential philosophy: Nietzsche, Berdyaev and Kierkegaard(and Dostoevsky if one would like to count him in)will do it for me thus far. I like Camus too. I have heard a lot of positive things about Heidegger, but also bad things. Care to enlighten me?

He kowtowed to the Nazis, if that's what you're referring to.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #141 on: June 27, 2017, 06:00:37 PM »
Do you know what else the same man said?

"Purely intellectual philosophy [which renounces the poetic and religious interpretation of things] is an ugly Western product; and neither the Greeks – Plato – nor Schopenhauer, nor the Russian thinkers understood philosophy in this way"

Why do you think Schopenhauer is mentioned there?

Schopenhauer was briefly a cultural touchstone representing post-Romantic decadence as opposed to the positivists. However, he was soon eclipsed by Nietzsche, and the opposition was recast as continentals vs. analyticals.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #142 on: June 27, 2017, 06:04:48 PM »
Do you know what else the same man said?

"Purely intellectual philosophy [which renounces the poetic and religious interpretation of things] is an ugly Western product; and neither the Greeks – Plato – nor Schopenhauer, nor the Russian thinkers understood philosophy in this way"

Why do you think Schopenhauer is mentioned there?

Schopenhauer was briefly a cultural touchstone representing post-Romantic decadence as opposed to the positivists. However, he was soon eclipsed by Nietzsche, and the opposition was recast as continentals vs. analyticals.
Schopenhauer was mentioned because the one who said it understood that he was a great philosopher. Now, I don't know if you saw my comment above this one but:


 "Do you know what this summer has meant for me? Constant raptures over Schopenhauer and a whole series of spiritual delights which I've never experienced before. ... no student has ever studied so much on his course, and learned so much, as I have this summer. Schopenhauer is one of the greatest geniuses among men..."

Who said that you think? Whoever said it must according to your own words lose your respect.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #143 on: June 27, 2017, 06:27:42 PM »
Do you know what else the same man said?

"Purely intellectual philosophy [which renounces the poetic and religious interpretation of things] is an ugly Western product; and neither the Greeks – Plato – nor Schopenhauer, nor the Russian thinkers understood philosophy in this way"

Why do you think Schopenhauer is mentioned there?

Schopenhauer was briefly a cultural touchstone representing post-Romantic decadence as opposed to the positivists. However, he was soon eclipsed by Nietzsche, and the opposition was recast as continentals vs. analyticals.
Schopenhauer was mentioned because the one who said it understood that he was a great philosopher. Now, I don't know if you saw my comment above this one but:


 "Do you know what this summer has meant for me? Constant raptures over Schopenhauer and a whole series of spiritual delights which I've never experienced before. ... no student has ever studied so much on his course, and learned so much, as I have this summer. Schopenhauer is one of the greatest geniuses among men..."

Who said that you think? Whoever said it must according to your own words lose your respect.

He re-earned my respect when his maturer mind developed its own, basically Christian, philosophy at length. We've had this conversation in another thread. Now, what you need to do rather than name-dropping is explain how Schopenhauer figures in your mind as a spiritual father, how his teaching that the only ultimate reality is no longer to be understood as God but as one's own will and that the ultimate truth is not revelation but commitment to one's own genius to the point of suicide is a basis for Christian doctrine and praxis. Take your time.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #144 on: June 27, 2017, 06:55:20 PM »
Do you know what else the same man said?

"Purely intellectual philosophy [which renounces the poetic and religious interpretation of things] is an ugly Western product; and neither the Greeks – Plato – nor Schopenhauer, nor the Russian thinkers understood philosophy in this way"

Why do you think Schopenhauer is mentioned there?

Schopenhauer was briefly a cultural touchstone representing post-Romantic decadence as opposed to the positivists. However, he was soon eclipsed by Nietzsche, and the opposition was recast as continentals vs. analyticals.
Schopenhauer was mentioned because the one who said it understood that he was a great philosopher. Now, I don't know if you saw my comment above this one but:


 "Do you know what this summer has meant for me? Constant raptures over Schopenhauer and a whole series of spiritual delights which I've never experienced before. ... no student has ever studied so much on his course, and learned so much, as I have this summer. Schopenhauer is one of the greatest geniuses among men..."

Who said that you think? Whoever said it must according to your own words lose your respect.

He re-earned my respect when his maturer mind developed its own, basically Christian, philosophy at length. We've had this conversation in another thread. Now, what you need to do rather than name-dropping is explain how Schopenhauer figures in your mind as a spiritual father, how his teaching that the only ultimate reality is no longer to be understood as God but as one's own will and that the ultimate truth is not revelation but commitment to one's own genius to the point of suicide is a basis for Christian doctrine and praxis. Take your time.
I reacted against you talking about Schopenhauer as if he was some sort of an idiot or something. You may not like his ideas and conclusions; but to say he was a bad philosopher and a wretched thinker is nothing but stupid. Sorry.

I don't agree with all he said. I read his philosophy in foremost with an aesthetic intention. And I consider it to be art in a way, because of his brilliant writing-style. He has deep insights about the wonders of compassion, and to say that he is entirely wrong about the blindness of the will, is... well... blind. I don't consider him a spiritual father and have never said he was one. Nor do I consider Claude Debussy a spiritual father, yet I enjoy his music. By the way; "but commitment to one's own genius to the point of suicide ". What does that even mean? Have you read Schopenhauer? He thought one should commit one-self to the denial of the will, and he believed that is what all the greatest religious/spiritual geniuses(if I may call them that, I suspect you will attack me for mentioning Buddha) in history had done: Buddha, Francis of Assisi, the Desert Fathers, to name a few. Tolstoy's reading of the sermon on the mount he admitted was very inspired by the views Schopenhauer had given him earlier. He doesn't by the way promote suicide, I just wanted to mention that too. Now though. This idea of denial of the will, which he was correct in saying that many religious people in history were actually trying to achieve(even christians, who in salvation often sought nothingness at many times in history, which though of course is a distorted view of salvation) rather than to know God, is NOT what made me appreciate him the most. Rather, it is his exceptionally bright and insightful and beautiful view of art, and especially music. Few have written such great things about art, and for that, he deserves my appreciation. Plus, he was a brilliant stylist. His writing in pure aesthetic terms far surpasses most philosophers in history and he can by it alone be counted among the great German writers(no, I am not calling him a novelist. If anything, blame my english, which cannot come up with a better word than writer).
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:05:48 PM by beebert »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #145 on: June 27, 2017, 07:23:55 PM »
Do you know what else the same man said?

"Purely intellectual philosophy [which renounces the poetic and religious interpretation of things] is an ugly Western product; and neither the Greeks – Plato – nor Schopenhauer, nor the Russian thinkers understood philosophy in this way"

Why do you think Schopenhauer is mentioned there?

Schopenhauer was briefly a cultural touchstone representing post-Romantic decadence as opposed to the positivists. However, he was soon eclipsed by Nietzsche, and the opposition was recast as continentals vs. analyticals.
Schopenhauer was mentioned because the one who said it understood that he was a great philosopher. Now, I don't know if you saw my comment above this one but:


 "Do you know what this summer has meant for me? Constant raptures over Schopenhauer and a whole series of spiritual delights which I've never experienced before. ... no student has ever studied so much on his course, and learned so much, as I have this summer. Schopenhauer is one of the greatest geniuses among men..."

Who said that you think? Whoever said it must according to your own words lose your respect.

He re-earned my respect when his maturer mind developed its own, basically Christian, philosophy at length. We've had this conversation in another thread. Now, what you need to do rather than name-dropping is explain how Schopenhauer figures in your mind as a spiritual father, how his teaching that the only ultimate reality is no longer to be understood as God but as one's own will and that the ultimate truth is not revelation but commitment to one's own genius to the point of suicide is a basis for Christian doctrine and praxis. Take your time.
I reacted against you talking about Schopenhauer as if he was some sort of an idiot or something. You may not like his ideas and conclusions; but to say he was a bad philosopher and a wretched thinker is nothing but stupid. Sorry.

I don't agree with all he said. I read his philosophy in foremost with an aesthetic intention. And I consider it to be art in a way, because of his brilliant writing-style. He has deep insights about the wonders of compassion, and to say that he is entirely wrong about the blindness of the will, is... well... blind. I don't consider him a spiritual father and have never said he was one. Nor do I consider Claude Debussy a spiritual father, yet I enjoy his music. By the way; "but commitment to one's own genius to the point of suicide ". What does that even mean? Have you read Schopenhauer? He thought one should commit one-self to the denial of the will, and he believed that is what all the greatest religious/spiritual geniuses(if I may call them that, I suspect you will attack me for mentioning Buddha) in history had done: Buddha, Francis of Assisi, the Desert Fathers, to name a few. Tolstoy's reading of the sermon on the mount he admitted was very inspired by the views Schopenhauer had given him earlier. He doesn't by the way promote suicide, I just wanted to mention that too. Now though. This idea of denial of the will, which he was correct in saying that many religious people in history were actually trying to achieve(even christians, who in salvation often sought nothingness at many times in history, which though of course is a distorted view of salvation) rather than to know God, is NOT what made me appreciate him the most. Rather, it is his exceptionally bright and insightful and beautiful view of art, and especially music. Few have written such great things about art, and for that, he deserves my appreciation. Plus, he was a brilliant stylist. His writing in pure aesthetic terms far surpasses most philosophers in history and he can by it alone be counted among the great German writers(no, I am not calling him a novelist. If anything, blame my english, which cannot come up with a better word than writer).

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, but when I state someone like Schopenhauer or Neitzsche or Leopaldo were showy blasphemers and have no place in the Christian echelon that's just a fact, and your feelings are only making you ridiculous in regard to that fact.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #146 on: June 27, 2017, 07:35:59 PM »
Do you know what else the same man said?

"Purely intellectual philosophy [which renounces the poetic and religious interpretation of things] is an ugly Western product; and neither the Greeks – Plato – nor Schopenhauer, nor the Russian thinkers understood philosophy in this way"

Why do you think Schopenhauer is mentioned there?

Schopenhauer was briefly a cultural touchstone representing post-Romantic decadence as opposed to the positivists. However, he was soon eclipsed by Nietzsche, and the opposition was recast as continentals vs. analyticals.
Schopenhauer was mentioned because the one who said it understood that he was a great philosopher. Now, I don't know if you saw my comment above this one but:


 "Do you know what this summer has meant for me? Constant raptures over Schopenhauer and a whole series of spiritual delights which I've never experienced before. ... no student has ever studied so much on his course, and learned so much, as I have this summer. Schopenhauer is one of the greatest geniuses among men..."

Who said that you think? Whoever said it must according to your own words lose your respect.

He re-earned my respect when his maturer mind developed its own, basically Christian, philosophy at length. We've had this conversation in another thread. Now, what you need to do rather than name-dropping is explain how Schopenhauer figures in your mind as a spiritual father, how his teaching that the only ultimate reality is no longer to be understood as God but as one's own will and that the ultimate truth is not revelation but commitment to one's own genius to the point of suicide is a basis for Christian doctrine and praxis. Take your time.
I reacted against you talking about Schopenhauer as if he was some sort of an idiot or something. You may not like his ideas and conclusions; but to say he was a bad philosopher and a wretched thinker is nothing but stupid. Sorry.

I don't agree with all he said. I read his philosophy in foremost with an aesthetic intention. And I consider it to be art in a way, because of his brilliant writing-style. He has deep insights about the wonders of compassion, and to say that he is entirely wrong about the blindness of the will, is... well... blind. I don't consider him a spiritual father and have never said he was one. Nor do I consider Claude Debussy a spiritual father, yet I enjoy his music. By the way; "but commitment to one's own genius to the point of suicide ". What does that even mean? Have you read Schopenhauer? He thought one should commit one-self to the denial of the will, and he believed that is what all the greatest religious/spiritual geniuses(if I may call them that, I suspect you will attack me for mentioning Buddha) in history had done: Buddha, Francis of Assisi, the Desert Fathers, to name a few. Tolstoy's reading of the sermon on the mount he admitted was very inspired by the views Schopenhauer had given him earlier. He doesn't by the way promote suicide, I just wanted to mention that too. Now though. This idea of denial of the will, which he was correct in saying that many religious people in history were actually trying to achieve(even christians, who in salvation often sought nothingness at many times in history, which though of course is a distorted view of salvation) rather than to know God, is NOT what made me appreciate him the most. Rather, it is his exceptionally bright and insightful and beautiful view of art, and especially music. Few have written such great things about art, and for that, he deserves my appreciation. Plus, he was a brilliant stylist. His writing in pure aesthetic terms far surpasses most philosophers in history and he can by it alone be counted among the great German writers(no, I am not calling him a novelist. If anything, blame my english, which cannot come up with a better word than writer).

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, but when I state someone like Schopenhauer or Neitzsche or Leopaldo were showy blasphemers and have no place in the Christian echelon that's just a fact, and your feelings are only making you ridiculous in regard to that fact.
Did I say they had a place in the "christian echelon"? Does that mean that one must simply dismiss every single  word they uttered? They were, obviously, three great philosophers/artists/writers. By the way, his name is Leopardi. And he was the one who opened my eyes to christianity positively along with Dostoevsky. Why? Because of two things: 1. He praised Jesus as the one who more than anyone had managed to expose hypocrites and oppressors. 2. He showed, in a very beautiful and striking way, what a world without God looks like. Nothing but despair in the end. But a man who can write so strikingly beautiful about that, surely believes in something. Surely is in some contact with God. Being a great artist and poet almost requires it I believe So... A great artist, even if not christian, can help one. Now about Nietzsche... There I have some bold claims. I think he is very important for christianity, especially in the west. But I don't think I shall bring that up here. And if one reads Thus Spoke Zarathustra, or Gay Science, one can see that the man who wrote these books was not simply an atheist in the word now used. Thus Spoke Zarathustra is written in a religious spirit that reminds me of the Psalms of David. This you will probably attack me for
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:40:04 PM by beebert »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #147 on: June 27, 2017, 07:38:57 PM »
He doesn't by the way promote suicide, I just wanted to mention that too.

He taught that, as the will of a man is the only reality, when circumstances challenge the will too much then suicide is the "emphatic assertion of this will." He recurred to this subject in his books, but also wrote a special essay on it. Let's take a look at the essay in part:

"The inmost kernel of Christianity is the truth that suffering -- the Cross -- is the real end and object of life. Hence Christianity condemns suicide as thwarting this end." Well that's slander, and he tries to be clever about it.

"The extraordinary energy and zeal with which the clergy of monotheistic religions attack suicide is not supported either by any passages in the Bible or by any considerations of weight; so that it looks as though they must have some secret reason for their contention." Again the slander, and again the thinking himself very clever by wording things in a concise but sophistical way.

"May it not be this -- that the voluntary surrender of life is a bad compliment for him who said that 'all things were very good'?" More of the same. Worded to make the simpler reader think something very clever has happened. However, the slander has now become directly blasphemous.

"If this is so [::)], it offers another instance of the crass optimism of these religions -- denouncing suicide to escape being denounced by it." So now he has moved on to begging his questions, in his usual, faux philosopher, fashion, but he has also interjected a suspicion, an accusation of motive, an ad hominem. Of course Christianity condemns suicide, because it's covering its own behind! How exactly a suicide (of which, by the way, there have always been plenty in Christendom) is actually supposed effectively to "denounce" Christ is never explained.

You're boring me, Beebert. Because I think you're just flatly unwilling to tackle the fact that your emotional attachments are hopelessly muddying your thoughts about Christ and the Church. There's nothing to defend here and so you're running in circles. Instead, try for some clarity of thought.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #148 on: June 27, 2017, 07:41:01 PM »
Did I say they had a place in the "christian echelon"?

Yes. You're constantly quoting depraved thinkers and artists in your claims about God and the Church.

Quote
By the way, his name is Leopardi. And he was the one who opened my eyes to christianity positively along with Dostoevsky. Why? Because of two things: 1. He praised Jesus as the one who more than anyone had managed to expose hypocrites and oppressors. 2. He showed, in a very beautiful and striking way, what world without God looks like.

Exposing the Church as hypocrites and painting a world without God are not "beautiful." At any rate, if he is a beautiful spiritual thinker, you've managed here on OC.net only to quote dreary blasphemies of his. Try again.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #149 on: June 27, 2017, 07:42:19 PM »
Did I say they had a place in the "christian echelon"?

Yes. You're constantly quoting depraved thinkers and artists in your claims about God and the Church.

Quote
By the way, his name is Leopardi. And he was the one who opened my eyes to christianity positively along with Dostoevsky. Why? Because of two things: 1. He praised Jesus as the one who more than anyone had managed to expose hypocrites and oppressors. 2. He showed, in a very beautiful and striking way, what world without God looks like.

Exposing the Church as hypocrites and painting a world without God are not "beautiful." At any rate, if he is a beautiful spiritual thinker, you've managed here on OC.net only to quote dreary blasphemies of his. Try again.
You are blind sir. I will not talk more to you. I can say one last thing: He had no contact with the orthodox church  as he was italian, so what are you talking about? Is the church the pharisees for you? Because those were the kinds Leopardi meant that Jesus exposed. And that he praised him for. He also had a high view of the catholic church, even though he didn't believe in its teachings. Painting a world without God is what Solomo does in The Ecclesiastes too. Don't you get my point? I said that Leopardi, by his way of describing life as a man struggling and then falling down an abyss proved there was a God. If you don't understand that contradiction, I can't understand how you can appreciate anything but in-learned dogmas.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:47:05 PM by beebert »
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Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #150 on: June 27, 2017, 07:49:00 PM »
He doesn't by the way promote suicide, I just wanted to mention that too.

He taught that, as the will of a man is the only reality, when circumstances challenge the will too much then suicide is the "emphatic assertion of this will." He recurred to this subject in his books, but also wrote a special essay on it. Let's take a look at the essay in part:

"The inmost kernel of Christianity is the truth that suffering -- the Cross -- is the real end and object of life. Hence Christianity condemns suicide as thwarting this end." Well that's slander, and he tries to be clever about it.

"The extraordinary energy and zeal with which the clergy of monotheistic religions attack suicide is not supported either by any passages in the Bible or by any considerations of weight; so that it looks as though they must have some secret reason for their contention." Again the slander, and again the thinking himself very clever by wording things in a concise but sophistical way.

"May it not be this -- that the voluntary surrender of life is a bad compliment for him who said that 'all things were very good'?" More of the same. Worded to make the simpler reader think something very clever has happened. However, the slander has now become directly blasphemous.

"If this is so [::)], it offers another instance of the crass optimism of these religions -- denouncing suicide to escape being denounced by it." So now he has moved on to begging his questions, in his usual, faux philosopher, fashion, but he has also interjected a suspicion, an accusation of motive, an ad hominem. Of course Christianity condemns suicide, because it's covering its own behind! How exactly a suicide (of which, by the way, there have always been plenty in Christendom) is actually supposed effectively to "denounce" Christ is never explained.

You're boring me, Beebert. Because I think you're just flatly unwilling to tackle the fact that your emotional attachments are hopelessly muddying your thoughts about Christ and the Church. There's nothing to defend here and so you're running in circles. Instead, try for some clarity of thought.
Tell me about clarity of thought, the gift you have.

Now, Schopenhauer isn't promoting suicide there. He is trying to defend it from the idea that suicide is to be condemned as some hideous crime that deserves sever punishment in hell(when sometimes, as you know and as the church now knows, suicide can be commited because someone simply suffers so much that his mind is not clear).

Did you btw know that Luther once witnessed a child who hanged himself? And Luther himself took down the child and wanted to bury him, but the people around him(who believed in what the catholic church taught) said stuff like "You are not aloud to bury him! He is a self-murderer! He is damned!" And Luther is supposed to have replied: "God must be mercy"
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:56:17 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #151 on: June 27, 2017, 08:03:48 PM »
Thread locked pending review.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #152 on: June 29, 2017, 11:42:33 AM »
Unlocked.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #153 on: June 29, 2017, 12:08:07 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)
Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!

Pretty easy. Popular Victorian enemies of Christianity become Fathers among the Saints. The Canon is reduced to a handful of partial books. "Do as thou wilt, and it harm not Beebert's feelings," becomes the Creed.
Now mind you; I do not at any rate despise christianity as it is practiced by people like Francis of Assisi and Starets Silouan, as I have mentioned so many times. That to me is true christianity. But what institutional christianity(especially in the west) has done in the name of Christ, I despise more than most things. The oppression, the murders, the dogmatic fights, the burning of heretics, the threatenings of hell to poor common people done by a church of power, etc. It is not easy to discover the lovely truth behind all this wickedness done in the name of Christ and God.

Surely you at least occasionally glimpse how much of this is your imagination? For some reason, your ego is pleased to align itself with and even clumsily exaggerate, say, a Schopenhauer. You then give yourself over entirely to negative and histrionic emotion. In the meantime, if you with a cool head can truly say that the prospect of hell is nothing but a sadistic fraud, or, for that matter, that books of the Bible are nothing but sadistic frauds, then, yes, you have a lot of work ahead of you finding the "true Christianity." Please recall that Francis of Assissi or St. Silouan were not men who railed at God or denied the Bible.
Schopenhauer was a brilliant philosopher. I don't care whether he was a brilliant man in private life or not. Beethoven I believe was the greatest genius to have lived. But he lived an awful private life and was a very rude man. We are all sinners. Have you read 'The World as Will and Representation'? It is shockingly beautiful. I think most of the prospects of hell has been nothing but sadistic frauds yes. And I am not alone among "christians"(I don't like to call myself a christian, because I am not one, I rather would say that at best I am about to become one, or trying to be willing to become one) to think that is the case. Or do you think that all christian writers during the patristic era got their ideas about hell right? I would say that the sadistic inventions of many christians can be traced back to book like the book of revelation in the bible yes. And murders and crimes committed by christians can be traced back to the old testament. Now... Does that mean that what the sadists that interpreted the bible in that sadistic sense were right about the bible? No. But that is not what I have said.  Of course I recall that neither Francis nor Silouan ever railed at God or the bible. And I am far from the truth.

I can't believe you actually wrote all this out plain as day. Schopenhauer was a wretched little man in every way, intellectually, personally, even physically. Unlike Russell's notorious claim, he was an atheist unable even to enjoy his breakfast. Yet, yes, he made himself a grandiosely bitter enemy of God and Christ, humankind, and for some reason women. Anyone who can read him with a straight face and unqueasy stomach has lost all claim to my respect, even if that reader had the excuse of being, oh, I don't know, a Deutschephile thirteen-year-old. Since you in fact have read him at some length, I can't grant you the excuse of ignorance that was just drawn to some allusion about him (I've known teenagers for whom this was the case). Therefore, that you not only support the man's blasphemous tirades but would run him up the flagpole of your own personal religion and parade about openly beneath it is -- well. I assume you do it to be shocking.
He admired certain christian traditions and praised them. Didn't you by the way respect Tolstoy? Perhaps it is time for you to lose your respect for him. I guess there are things you don't get.

 "Do you know what this summer has meant for me? Constant raptures over Schopenhauer and a whole series of spiritual delights which I've never experienced before. ... no student has ever studied so much on his course, and learned so much, as I have this summer. Schopenhauer is one of the greatest geniuses among men..."

Who said that you think? Only an idiot would read Schopenhauer and then simply pronounce him as being some stupid and wretched loser only to be appreciated by 13-year olds or whatever...

Not much of a Tolstoy fan.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #154 on: June 30, 2017, 05:43:29 PM »
Which religion do you dislike/hate more? Mormonism or Islam?

(Note: These are about the religions (i.e the ideas) of Islam and Mormonism NOT the followers of Mormonism or Islam. As Christians, we should pray for followers of both these religions so that they may see the light of Christ and come and follow him.)
Ironically they're both founded by a couple of mentally unstable individuals who went up to the mountains and had some religious"experiences" that caused them to go into epileptic type fits while they were recieving their "revelations" by themselves which no one else could prove or disprove. They also founded similiar religions based on bigamy, violence and murder.

I don't care much for either of them.

Although I would give Islam the edge for it's condemnation of Usury.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 05:44:26 PM by Charles Martel »
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #155 on: August 01, 2017, 03:09:12 AM »
Islam has better art. Therefore Islam wins.

Mormonism has hotter, whiter women. Therefore the 19th century backwoods spaceman folk religion wins.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #156 on: August 01, 2017, 09:38:06 AM »
Islam has better art. Therefore Islam wins.

Mormonism has hotter, whiter women. Therefore the 19th century backwoods spaceman folk religion wins.

I see you are still committed to dishonoring your poor uncle by attaching his face to your braindead comments.
Quote
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #157 on: August 01, 2017, 10:00:27 AM »
Islam has better art. Therefore Islam wins.

Mormonism has hotter, whiter women. Therefore the 19th century backwoods spaceman folk religion wins.

I see you are still committed to dishonoring your poor uncle by attaching his face to your braindead comments.

+1

Quote
hotter, whiter women

Oh, Lord.  If there's any justice, one of the 72 concubines some jihadi gets in paradise is going to have "virginal chicano blood".
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #158 on: August 01, 2017, 06:37:20 PM »
Islam has better art. Therefore Islam wins.

Mormonism has hotter, whiter women. Therefore the 19th century backwoods spaceman folk religion wins.

I see you are still committed to dishonoring your poor uncle by attaching his face to your braindead comments.

I'm sure you're a bigger disgrace to your ancestors by continuing to frequent a message board full of neckbeards and losers whereas I actually led a productive year before returning to this place. Do you not like white women? Or is it that you simply do not like women at all and would prefer to [vulgar verb deleted] to cyberbullying me all day?

Dear JamesR, you have been just warned for using ad hominems in another thread. This post also contains ad hominem and a vulgar verb. Such way of posting can not be tolerated in a Christian Orthodox forum. Since you have got a high puntative warning, I will not increase it.

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« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 07:16:43 PM by Dominika »

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #159 on: August 01, 2017, 07:01:58 PM »
Islam has better art. Therefore Islam wins.

Mormonism has hotter, whiter women. Therefore the 19th century backwoods spaceman folk religion wins.

I see you are still committed to dishonoring your poor uncle by attaching his face to your braindead comments.

I'm sure you're a bigger disgrace to your ancestors by continuing to frequent a message board full of neckbeards and losers whereas I actually led a productive year before returning to this place. Do you not like white women? Or is it that you simply do not like women at all and would prefer to jerk off to cyberbullying me all day?

You come back here posting nothing but deliberately vile and inflammatory stuff in several threads and accuse those who react of cyber-bullying you?  Are you serious?
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #160 on: August 21, 2017, 03:26:40 PM »
I have a hard time believing that.  Most Christian converts to Islam are fully aware that they are joining a new religion which contends that Our Lord Jesus Christ is not God Incarnate but simply a prophet, and not even the last or the greatest of those.  I'm not willing to buy the load of malarkey that this is simply a difference between the methods of Islamic missionaries in the USA vs. Brazil either.  The world is clear on the fact that Islam and Christianity are two different faiths.  Not so much with Christianity vs. Charismatic cults or even Christianity vs. "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints".  For simple-minded would-be converts, the choice between Jesus and "Allah" is one thing, while the choice between Jesus and "Jesus" is something else entirely.  In the latter case, they are not always aware that they are leaving Christianity.

Quote
Muslims grow in Brazil converting Evangelicals, claims researcher

According to Amanda Dias, the Evangelicals who convert Muslims are attracted by the idea that Islamic religion works parallel to Christianity: "There is some continuity [of moral values] between the Evangelical Church and Islam, in pudorous clothes and so on, and, in Brazil, [Islam] will insist on this continuity. The first book they will receive when entering a mosque is "Jesus, a prophet of Islam". There is doctrinal continuity, too.

https://noticias.gospelmais.com.br/muculmanos-crescem-brasil-convertendo-evangelicos-pesquisadora-88156.html
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 03:31:27 PM by RaphaCam »
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #161 on: August 21, 2017, 04:36:38 PM »
I have a hard time believing that.  Most Christian converts to Islam are fully aware that they are joining a new religion which contends that Our Lord Jesus Christ is not God Incarnate but simply a prophet, and not even the last or the greatest of those.  I'm not willing to buy the load of malarkey that this is simply a difference between the methods of Islamic missionaries in the USA vs. Brazil either.  The world is clear on the fact that Islam and Christianity are two different faiths.  Not so much with Christianity vs. Charismatic cults or even Christianity vs. "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints".  For simple-minded would-be converts, the choice between Jesus and "Allah" is one thing, while the choice between Jesus and "Jesus" is something else entirely.  In the latter case, they are not always aware that they are leaving Christianity.

Quote
Muslims grow in Brazil converting Evangelicals, claims researcher

According to Amanda Dias, the Evangelicals who convert Muslims are attracted by the idea that Islamic religion works parallel to Christianity: "There is some continuity [of moral values] between the Evangelical Church and Islam, in pudorous clothes and so on, and, in Brazil, [Islam] will insist on this continuity. The first book they will receive when entering a mosque is "Jesus, a prophet of Islam". There is doctrinal continuity, too.

https://noticias.gospelmais.com.br/muculmanos-crescem-brasil-convertendo-evangelicos-pesquisadora-88156.html

None of this in any way invalidates anything I've posted.  These people have to know that demoting Christ from God the Word to a mere prophet means that they are entering a new faith.  Acknowledging that there is some "continuity of doctrine" between Christianity and Islam doesn't change that.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #162 on: August 21, 2017, 08:48:51 PM »
I'm sorry, but what is the point of this post?

Not to come across in a rude manner, but will such a post like this convert people to Holy Orthodoxy from Islam or Mormonism?

No, in fact it will probably do the opposite if, guided by the Holy Spirit, they are looking into Orthodoxy.

Simply calling someone's entire cultural and religious belief system "stupid" or "I dislike that person's belief system more!" is not loving.

It is important to criticize these belief systems which is viewed as heterodox, and to criticize some of the moral and faithful errors of these religions (denial of the Holy Trinity, Polygamy, denial that Christ is literally the Only Begotten Son, historical violence that was and is condoned, contradictions of Saint Paul's and Saint Peter's words about the use of Mosaic food regulations), as well as the motivations and intents of these self-proclaimed prophets and scholars, and the historical contradictions that they have published (the idea of more than one God, prophecies which never came true, the history of violence and scamming those prophets have done) but simply having a hissy-fit contest about how much you "hate" this form of heterodoxy vs this form is not efficient progress.

If something is not Orthodox, it was made evil by man. There is Truth, and Falsehood - so lets bring them to Truth instead of wasting time discussing which one you "hate" more.

Christ pointed out the errors of the Pharisees and was harsh at them, like we should be - but I don't believe He ever sat down and talked about how the Pharisees in their ideological belief systems were bad, but better than the Sadducees or the Samaritans.

No, instead, He taught "I am the Way, the Truth, the Life. Nobody comes to the Father except through Me."


And such posts like "I'll take white women over those Muslims" doesn't help convert our Middle Eastern brothers and sisters, who are our siblings as, despite their sins, they have the same Father as we do. I encourage you guys to read the published statement of the OCA bishops about white supremacy and violent anti-fascism.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 08:55:03 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #163 on: August 21, 2017, 08:55:43 PM »
Not to come across in a rude manner, but will such a post like this convert people to Holy Orthodoxy from Islam or Mormonism?

Since the person who created the thread is not Orthodox, I seriously doubt he has any interest in converting anyone to Holy Orthodoxy.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #164 on: August 21, 2017, 08:59:50 PM »
Quote
"There is some continuity [of moral values] between the Evangelical Church and Islam, in pudorous clothes and so on....
Hmm..."pudorous" is not (though "pudor" is, according to the OED) actually an English word. Is it from the Portuguese?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 09:00:51 PM by Jetavan »
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Offline William T

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #165 on: August 21, 2017, 09:02:21 PM »
I'm sorry, but what is the point of this post?

Not to come across in a rude manner, but will such a post like this convert people to Holy Orthodoxy from Islam or Mormonism?

No, in fact it will probably do the opposite if, guided by the Holy Spirit, they are looking into Orthodoxy.

Simply calling someone's entire cultural and religious belief system "stupid" or "I dislike that person's belief system more!" is not loving.

It is important to criticize these belief systems which is viewed as heterodox, and to criticize some of the moral and faithful errors of these religions (denial of the Holy Trinity, Polygamy, denial that Christ is literally the Only Begotten Son, historical violence that was and is condoned, contradictions of Saint Paul's and Saint Peter's words about the use of Mosaic food regulations), as well as the motivations and intents of these self-proclaimed prophets and scholars, and the historical contradictions that they have published (the idea of more than one God, prophecies which never came true, the history of violence and scamming those prophets have done) but simply having a hissy-fit contest about how much you "hate" this form of heterodoxy vs this form is not efficient progress.

If something is not Orthodox, it was made evil by man. There is Truth, and Falsehood - so lets bring them to Truth instead of wasting time discussing which one you "hate" more.

Christ pointed out the errors of the Pharisees and was harsh at them, like we should be - but I don't believe He ever sat down and talked about how the Pharisees in their ideological belief systems were bad, but better than the Sadducees or the Samaritans.

No, instead, He taught "I am the Way, the Truth, the Life. Nobody comes to the Father except through Me."

1)  You can compare doctrines and philosophies in an abstract sense.  If you think someone having an "ultimate commitment" to a Nazi doctrine or a Rotary Club is the same thing, or their "ideal type" or practical consequences of application, I don't think you're playing with a full deck.

2)  Giving personal anecdotes or experiences is useful.  I have a lot of experience with Muslims and very little with Mormons or many post-Christian protestant sects in general.  Discussion about perspectives , personal experience or anecdotes, and approaches is not bad.  Even two Orthodox people blowing off steam to eachother is not a bad thing, as long as people aren't taking such comments with a heavy hand.  I know the internet is a strange place, and "private conversation" is a foreign concept to some people, but being on a site calle OrthodoxChristianity.net and thinking it's OK for Orthodox Christianity to be a home field perspective where you can be a bit more candid or exacerbated isn't that radical a position.

3) If something is not Orthodox, it was made evil by man. .


what?
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #166 on: August 21, 2017, 09:02:34 PM »
Not to come across in a rude manner, but will such a post like this convert people to Holy Orthodoxy from Islam or Mormonism?

Since the person who created the thread is not Orthodox, I seriously doubt he has any interest in converting anyone to Holy Orthodoxy.

Touche.
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Offline William T

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #167 on: August 21, 2017, 09:03:55 PM »


Also there is no need to patronize someones emotions or intellect if they ask me who I respect more, the Yankees or Red Sox....if they ask they ask, why not just respect the question
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #168 on: August 21, 2017, 09:08:53 PM »
I'm sorry, but what is the point of this post?

Not to come across in a rude manner, but will such a post like this convert people to Holy Orthodoxy from Islam or Mormonism?

No, in fact it will probably do the opposite if, guided by the Holy Spirit, they are looking into Orthodoxy.

Simply calling someone's entire cultural and religious belief system "stupid" or "I dislike that person's belief system more!" is not loving.

It is important to criticize these belief systems which is viewed as heterodox, and to criticize some of the moral and faithful errors of these religions (denial of the Holy Trinity, Polygamy, denial that Christ is literally the Only Begotten Son, historical violence that was and is condoned, contradictions of Saint Paul's and Saint Peter's words about the use of Mosaic food regulations), as well as the motivations and intents of these self-proclaimed prophets and scholars, and the historical contradictions that they have published (the idea of more than one God, prophecies which never came true, the history of violence and scamming those prophets have done) but simply having a hissy-fit contest about how much you "hate" this form of heterodoxy vs this form is not efficient progress.

If something is not Orthodox, it was made evil by man. There is Truth, and Falsehood - so lets bring them to Truth instead of wasting time discussing which one you "hate" more.

Christ pointed out the errors of the Pharisees and was harsh at them, like we should be - but I don't believe He ever sat down and talked about how the Pharisees in their ideological belief systems were bad, but better than the Sadducees or the Samaritans.

No, instead, He taught "I am the Way, the Truth, the Life. Nobody comes to the Father except through Me."

1)  You can compare doctrines and philosophies in an abstract sense.  If you think someone having an "ultimate commitment" to a Nazi doctrine or a Rotary Club is the same thing, or their "ideal type" or practical consequences of application, I don't think you're playing with a full deck.

2)  Giving personal anecdotes or experiences is useful.  I have a lot of experience with Muslims and very little with Mormons or many post-Christian protestant sects in general.  Discussion about perspectives , personal experience or anecdotes, and approaches is not bad.  Even two Orthodox people blowing off steam to eachother is not a bad thing, as long as people aren't taking such comments with a heavy hand.  I know the internet is a strange place, and "private conversation" is a foreign concept to some people, but being on a site calle OrthodoxChristianity.net and thinking it's OK for Orthodox Christianity to be a home field perspective where you can be a bit more candid or exacerbated isn't that radical a position.

3) If something is not Orthodox, it was made evil by man. .


what?

1. and 2. Yeah, sure, but why are we discussing it in such a way about how much better one entire cultural and heterodox belief system is hated more than another? And I agree with this point, and we should share our experiences - but I don't believe snickering with elitism about how better and right we are, while kissing our own souls, is an effective and humility-based approach for such discussion. My problem was more or less about the format and tone of the original question. Sure, let's compare Mormonism and Islam - not which one we hate more.

3. So you would tell me that contemporary Judaism, Islam, and Protestantism were all motivated by the Holy Spirit? If not the Holy Spirit, then what force created these theological belief systems? If not God, then what?
Not that such ideas are purely evil and nothing good can come out of it, but in its origin....yeah.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #169 on: August 21, 2017, 09:34:29 PM »
Quote
"There is some continuity [of moral values] between the Evangelical Church and Islam, in pudorous clothes and so on....
Hmm..."pudorous" is not (though "pudor" is, according to the OED) actually an English word. Is it from the Portuguese?
"Pudoroso" is not a very common word, but it exists, so for some reason I tried writing an English equivalent. "Pudic" would be suitable (as "pudico" would also be more common in Portuguese). Thanks for the correction.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #170 on: August 21, 2017, 10:12:14 PM »
Quote
"There is some continuity [of moral values] between the Evangelical Church and Islam, in pudorous clothes and so on....
Hmm..."pudorous" is not (though "pudor" is, according to the OED) actually an English word. Is it from the Portuguese?

We have the word "impudence" but not "pudence." We would just say "modest."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #171 on: August 22, 2017, 08:02:42 AM »
Revelation is pretty clear if someone is familiar with Old Testament. Otherwise many can fall to many errors. It is the story of Jesus and of the world from creation till the age to come. The lake of fire the book says that is the second death. The hell. The hell that our Fathers say that is a spiritual state and not a created place with torments.

Yeah................
I don't know if "pretty clear" is the best word to describe it. I wonder if any of us, unless we truly are in a pure spiritual state, can say "for sure" what this means or that means.

I personally have come to the conclusion that the most clear way of interpreting the Book of Revelation is through typology.

For example, in Revelation 12, the dragon chasing the woman with the child into the desert is clearly a reference to Herod trying to kill Jesus and the angel moving Mary and Joseph to Egypt, but it is typological in that it refers to Satan literally trying to destroy the Church of Christ and failing to do so.

The Beast of Revelation is, to me, a reference to Nero / Domitian, with the "head that was wounded by the sword and healed" (with Nero killing himself by the sword and Domitian fulfilling the place of Nero), but it also refers to the Antichrist and the final persecution (as the Book of Revelation states the beast was, is not, and is to come).

Indeed, the city of seven hills not only refers to Rome, but Jerusalem as well - as both were built with seven hills.

Those are my thoughts.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #172 on: August 22, 2017, 11:34:23 AM »
Human history is a progression only in the sense that it's a gyre. That is, much as the procession of the priest in a circle toward the icon of the Christ is said to lift the assembled toward heaven, so only by repeated cycles of strengthening "typos" does the Age of Man arise to enter the ageless heaven. The Revelation is a powerful prophecy, song, and picture of just this gyring activity. Babylon is Rome is Spain is Britain is America. The Holy Martyrs are the New Martyrs are the slain prophets in the center of Jerusalem. The table is the Last Supper, is the Eucharist, is the reunion feast in heaven. And so on. "And I, if I be lifted up shall draw all men after me."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ZackShenouda439

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #173 on: October 16, 2017, 04:34:22 PM »
Which religion do you dislike/hate more? Mormonism or Islam?

(Note: These are about the religions (i.e the ideas) of Islam and Mormonism NOT the followers of Mormonism or Islam. As Christians, we should pray for followers of both these religions so that they may see the light of Christ and come and follow him.)

Islam. Islam explicitly commands christians to reject that Jesus is God. it's a religion that actually makes instruction to non-muslims/unbelievers.

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

 Qur'an, sura 4

All the main schools of Islamic Jurisprudence endorse capital punishment for apostates. Most muslims belong to at least one of these schools of fiqh. See the rulings.

Al-Hanafiyyah

Imam al-Marghinaaniy says: "If a Muslim, may Allah forbid turns away from Islam, the religion of Islam should be presented to him. If he has any doubts they should be cleared…and he should be kept under supervision for 3 days. If he reverts to Islam, he must be set free, otherwise he should be executed. (Al-Hidaya)

Allamah Ibn ‘Aabideen says: "Note well! It is unanimous that a renegade from Islam must be executed" (Rasaa’il Ibn Aabideen)

Al-Maalikiyyah

Imam Maalik says: "The one who renegades from Islam to another religion and exposes it will be asked to repent from his action. If he does not repent, he must be executed." (Al-Mu’atta lil Imam Maalik)

Al-shaafi’iyyah

Imam al-Shaafi’iy says: "One who renegades from Islam will not be left alone, either he reverts to Islam or he will be executed." (Kitab al-Umm)

Al-Hanaabilah

Allamah Ibn Qudaama al-Hanbaliy says: "All the scholars are unanimous that a renegade must be executed." (Al-Mughniy with Sharh al-Kabir Vol.10 Pg.74 Dar al-Kutub al-Ilmiyyah Beirut)


Islam is not only false but it's particularly savage. No religion like it exists. Islam is truly the scourge of the earth.


Offline Volnutt

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #174 on: October 21, 2017, 12:52:43 AM »

2)  Mormonism by contrast has how many degrees of separation with anything resembling Classical Christianity?  As far as I can tell it may be removed pretty far from the Catholic Church.  Either way, I think the "degrees" are hard to pin down due to how Christianity sprung up in America and how we look at this kind of "low Protestantism".

Catholicism->Anglicanism->Methodism (more or less Joseph Smith's initial background)->"Burned over district" revivalism (there's some Quaker and Baptist influence involved in laying the groundwork here, as in all American revivalism)->Mormonism
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #175 on: October 21, 2017, 01:28:42 AM »
the blasphemy that Jesus Christ is also St. Michael, et cetera. 

Interestingly, I think Charles Spurgeon also believed that.

ETA: In that he thought that "Michael" was just a pre-Incarnate alias of Christ. He didn't believe Christ was an angel.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 01:31:08 AM by Volnutt »
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Nicodemusz138

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #176 on: October 21, 2017, 07:22:04 AM »
the blasphemy that Jesus Christ is also St. Michael, et cetera. 

Interestingly, I think Charles Spurgeon also believed that.

ETA: In that he thought that "Michael" was just a pre-Incarnate alias of Christ. He didn't believe Christ was an angel.

Just like the Seventh Day Adventists.

I do not think this is heresy or blasphemy, it does not denies the Trinity at all, unlike the JW view of Michael/Jesus.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 07:24:51 AM by Nicodemusz138 »
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #177 on: October 21, 2017, 02:58:24 PM »
the blasphemy that Jesus Christ is also St. Michael, et cetera. 

Interestingly, I think Charles Spurgeon also believed that.

ETA: In that he thought that "Michael" was just a pre-Incarnate alias of Christ. He didn't believe Christ was an angel.

Just like the Seventh Day Adventists.

I do not think this is heresy or blasphemy, it does not denies the Trinity at all, unlike the JW view of Michael/Jesus.

I think it is both heresy and blasphemy, and at the very least, erroneous teaching.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #178 on: October 21, 2017, 09:55:06 PM »
the blasphemy that Jesus Christ is also St. Michael, et cetera. 

Interestingly, I think Charles Spurgeon also believed that.

ETA: In that he thought that "Michael" was just a pre-Incarnate alias of Christ. He didn't believe Christ was an angel.

Just like the Seventh Day Adventists.

I do not think this is heresy or blasphemy, it does not denies the Trinity at all, unlike the JW view of Michael/Jesus.

I think it is both heresy and blasphemy, and at the very least, erroneous teaching.

Why would it be blasphemy? Is it really that important that St. Michael exist as an angel? That's almost like saying that it's blasphemous to hold that Sts. Theodore the General and Theodore the Tyro are the same person erroneously split into two.
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #179 on: October 22, 2017, 05:51:12 PM »
the blasphemy that Jesus Christ is also St. Michael, et cetera. 

Interestingly, I think Charles Spurgeon also believed that.

ETA: In that he thought that "Michael" was just a pre-Incarnate alias of Christ. He didn't believe Christ was an angel.

Just like the Seventh Day Adventists.

I do not think this is heresy or blasphemy, it does not denies the Trinity at all, unlike the JW view of Michael/Jesus.

I think it is both heresy and blasphemy, and at the very least, erroneous teaching.

Why would it be blasphemy? Is it really that important that St. Michael exist as an angel?

We know who St. Michael is.  He is a real person and a created being.  Not an alias of the Logos.

That's almost like saying that it's blasphemous to hold that Sts. Theodore the General and Theodore the Tyro are the same person erroneously split into two.

No, it's not.  They are both men and created beings.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.