Author Topic: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?  (Read 4433 times)

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Offline Isaiah53IsMessiah

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Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« on: June 24, 2017, 05:18:56 PM »
Which religion do you dislike/hate more? Mormonism or Islam?

(Note: These are about the religions (i.e the ideas) of Islam and Mormonism NOT the followers of Mormonism or Islam. As Christians, we should pray for followers of both these religions so that they may see the light of Christ and come and follow him.)
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2017, 05:28:25 PM »
In most cases the disdain to a religion equals disdain to followers of that particular religion. I disagree with both and I find Mormonism deliciously absurd and Islam endlessly intriguing but I don't have any strong feelings of either. Mormons and Muslims are both mostly good people and having strong negative feelings of their worldview feels a bit rude. I hope people see my religion in a positive way and try to do the same for others' religion.
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Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2017, 05:34:53 PM »
Which religion do you dislike/hate more? Mormonism or Islam?

(Note: These are about the religions (i.e the ideas) of Islam and Mormonism NOT the followers of Mormonism or Islam. As Christians, we should pray for followers of both these religions so that they may see the light of Christ and come and follow him.)
I dislike Islam for the same reason I dislike the christendom preached by fundamentalists. I dont dislike muslisms, I have met wonderful muslims. And I like to some degree Sufism, which is quite interesting. Mormonism I know too little about, but they seem to keep to themselves? So why hate them? Or am I wrong there?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 05:36:07 PM by beebert »
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Offline Isaiah53IsMessiah

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2017, 05:39:28 PM »
Quote
Mormonism I know too little about, but they seem to keep to themselves? So why hate them? Or am I wrong there?


Well, they certainly enjoy going from door to door, neighborhood to neighborhood spreading their beliefs. To sum it up, Mormons are polytheist who believe the Trinity to be three different gods, and they believe in the existence of other gods like the "Heavenly Mother" who is the "Heavenly Father's" wife. Also, I do not hate them, but I strongly dislike their ideas about God.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 05:40:51 PM by Isaiah53IsMessiah »
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Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2017, 05:41:43 PM »
Quote
Mormonism I know too little about, but they seem to keep to themselves? So why hate them? Or am I wrong there?


Well, they certainly enjoy going from door to door, neighborhood to neighborhood spreading their beliefs. To sum it up, Mormons are polytheist who believe the Trinity to be three different gods, and they believe in the existence of other gods like the "Heavenly Mother" who is the "Heavenly Father's" wife.
Sounds quite silly and childish...
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2017, 06:03:21 PM »
Islam probably. Mormonism is just ridiculous, it's not an existential threat.
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Offline youssef

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2017, 06:34:25 PM »
I don't know what mormon believe. About islam it is difficult for me to hate, Some of my childhood friend are muslim and my first love was a muslim women. There is not one islam, i appreciate Sufism and most of my read now are sufism poetry, i like the popular culture in islam

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2017, 07:05:54 PM »
Many great friends and acquaintances in both religions.

Someone in the early days of Mormonism wrote an exposé called something like, Joseph Smith, a Latter-Day Prophet Mohammed pointing out many uncanny similarities between the origins of the two religions and their leaders and scriptures.

Looked at nowadays, both still comprise plenty of pernicious doctrine and authority structures. However, they also offer their followers much security, belonging, and comfort the secular world cannot. How do we measure up?
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2017, 04:30:08 PM »
I don't know what mormon believe. About islam it is difficult for me to hate, Some of my childhood friend are muslim and my first love was a muslim women. There is not one islam, i appreciate Sufism and most of my read now are sufism poetry, i like the popular culture in islam

Orthodox Sunni Islam, the violent and dangerous one, is 90% of Muslims. Many jihadis have been Sufis.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2017, 04:30:41 PM »
Many great friends and acquaintances in both religions.

Someone in the early days of Mormonism wrote an exposé called something like, Joseph Smith, a Latter-Day Prophet Mohammed pointing out many uncanny similarities between the origins of the two religions and their leaders and scriptures.

Looked at nowadays, both still comprise plenty of pernicious doctrine and authority structures. However, they also offer their followers much security, belonging, and comfort the secular world cannot. How do we measure up?

Yeah, that;s a legitimate point.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2017, 04:35:32 PM »
When there is a Mormon State in the United States (or Syria/Levant, flavour du jour), I will dislike Mormonism more.  Until then, they'r just the young missionaries I give water to and freak them out with icons.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2017, 04:43:14 PM »
When there is a Mormon State in the United States (or Syria/Levant, flavour du jour), I will dislike Mormonism more.  Until then, they'r just the young missionaries I give water to and freak them out with icons.

It was called Deseret, comprised almost four Western states in size, and surrounding territories such as Oregon and California often considered it a military dictatorship and violent threat.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2017, 04:57:18 PM »
When there is a Mormon State in the United States (or Syria/Levant, flavour du jour), I will dislike Mormonism more.  Until then, they'r just the young missionaries I give water to and freak them out with icons.

It was called Deseret, comprised almost four Western states in size, and surrounding territories such as Oregon and California often considered it a military dictatorship and violent threat.
Was.
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2017, 05:02:41 PM »
Islam,  while Mormonism is wired,  Islam is a threat similar to Nazism,  and Communism was in the past.  That doesn't mean there are bad Muslim's,  there are good ones, most are pious trying to follow their religion the best way possible.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 05:02:58 PM by seekeroftruth777 »

Offline Isaiah53IsMessiah

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2017, 05:17:34 PM »
When there is a Mormon State in the United States (or Syria/Levant, flavour du jour), I will dislike Mormonism more.  Until then, they'r just the young missionaries I give water to and freak them out with icons.

Utah. That's where the Mormon HQ is, and the famous Salt Lake City temple is there. Mormons are more numerous than actual Christians in Utah, claiming about 60% of the population.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2017, 05:19:15 PM »
When there is a Mormon State in the United States (or Syria/Levant, flavour du jour), I will dislike Mormonism more.  Until then, they'r just the young missionaries I give water to and freak them out with icons.

Utah. That's where the Mormon HQ is, and the famous Salt Lake City temple is there. Mormons are more numerous than actual Christians in Utah, claiming about 60% of the population.

Oh, that's cool.  Where do I sign up to saw off heads as a Mormon?
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2017, 09:15:01 PM »
Mormonism, for the same reason I dislike other pseudo-Christian sects, like Charismatism.  It purports to be Christianity and confuses people.  Islam, while vile in many ways and more dangerous in a temporal, physical sense, is not as seductive to those who still think they believe in Christ when they embrace the Mormon "Christ", or the Holy Spirit when they embrace the Marquis of Snakes or whichever other foul entity from the pit is causing them to writhe on the floor and jabber in pseudo-tongues.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2017, 09:44:53 PM »
Mormonism, for the same reason I dislike other pseudo-Christian sects, like Charismatism.  It purports to be Christianity and confuses people.  Islam, while vile in many ways and more dangerous in a temporal, physical sense, is not as seductive to those who still think they believe in Christ when they embrace the Mormon "Christ", or the Holy Spirit when they embrace the Marquis of Snakes or whichever other foul entity from the pit is causing them to writhe on the floor and jabber in pseudo-tongues.
Well, Muslims do love to seduce Christians with the whole Isa/Maryam thing. Most Muslims I met were former Christians who didn't seem to think much changed beside this whole mushrik Trinity thing.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2017, 09:46:52 PM »
Mormonism, for the same reason I dislike other pseudo-Christian sects, like Charismatism.  It purports to be Christianity and confuses people.  Islam, while vile in many ways and more dangerous in a temporal, physical sense, is not as seductive to those who still think they believe in Christ when they embrace the Mormon "Christ", or the Holy Spirit when they embrace the Marquis of Snakes or whichever other foul entity from the pit is causing them to writhe on the floor and jabber in pseudo-tongues.
Well, Muslims do love to seduce Christians with the whole Isa/Maryam thing. Most Muslims I met were former Christians who didn't seem to think much changed beside this whole mushrik Trinity thing.

Western young people are converting to Islam for cultural reasons, not because they're following Christ into new fields of doctrine or something like that.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2017, 10:01:56 PM »
Not really the Brazilian case, where it's basically former Protestants. Maybe it's their da'wah method here.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2017, 10:56:30 PM »
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
and Islam?

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« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 10:56:53 PM by Jetavan »
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2017, 11:36:05 PM »
When there is a Mormon State in the United States (or Syria/Levant, flavour du jour), I will dislike Mormonism more.  Until then, they'r just the young missionaries I give water to and freak them out with icons.

Utah. That's where the Mormon HQ is, and the famous Salt Lake City temple is there. Mormons are more numerous than actual Christians in Utah, claiming about 60% of the population.

The real Mormons are headquartered in Independence, Mo. ;)
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2017, 11:41:31 PM »
I've been on a real Mormonism kick recently. Where Protestants rejected history, Mormons invented it out of whole cloth. Their religion is fascinating stuff.

As soon as it poured out of the Arabian Peninsula, Islam assumed its position as the premier enemy of Christendom. Maybe it will climb off that pedestal some day but that day isn't here yet.

Neither should be classified as Christian.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 11:42:40 PM by Hawkeye »
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2017, 12:07:09 AM »
I've been on a real Mormonism kick recently. Where Protestants rejected history, Mormons invented it out of whole cloth. Their religion is fascinating stuff.

As soon as it poured out of the Arabian Peninsula, Islam assumed its position as the premier enemy of Christendom. Maybe it will climb off that pedestal some day but that day isn't here yet.

Neither should be classified as Christian.
My favorite description of Mormonism came from some SBC apologist several years ago, who labeled it the fourth Abrahamic religion.
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Offline Isaiah53IsMessiah

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2017, 01:35:30 AM »
I've been on a real Mormonism kick recently. Where Protestants rejected history, Mormons invented it out of whole cloth. Their religion is fascinating stuff.

As soon as it poured out of the Arabian Peninsula, Islam assumed its position as the premier enemy of Christendom. Maybe it will climb off that pedestal some day but that day isn't here yet.

Neither should be classified as Christian.
My favorite description of Mormonism came from some SBC apologist several years ago, who labeled it the fourth Abrahamic religion.
Abrahamic religions are monotheistic. Mormonism is polytheistic. Can we really say Mormons are Abrahamic? They seem more like a pagan corruption of Abrahamism.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2017, 01:51:25 AM »
I've been on a real Mormonism kick recently. Where Protestants rejected history, Mormons invented it out of whole cloth. Their religion is fascinating stuff.

As soon as it poured out of the Arabian Peninsula, Islam assumed its position as the premier enemy of Christendom. Maybe it will climb off that pedestal some day but that day isn't here yet.

Neither should be classified as Christian.
My favorite description of Mormonism came from some SBC apologist several years ago, who labeled it the fourth Abrahamic religion.
Abrahamic religions are monotheistic. Mormonism is polytheistic. Can we really say Mormons are Abrahamic? They seem more like a pagan corruption of Abrahamism.

We're not monotheistic according to the other Abrahamic faiths, so I'm not sure that's the only measure.
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Offline youssef

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2017, 05:26:25 AM »
I don't know what mormon believe. About islam it is difficult for me to hate, Some of my childhood friend are muslim and my first love was a muslim women. There is not one islam, i appreciate Sufism and most of my read now are sufism poetry, i like the popular culture in islam

Orthodox Sunni Islam, the violent and dangerous one, is 90% of Muslims. Many jihadis have been Sufis.

What is the definition of orthodox sunni islam? Give me this name of this jihadis who have been sufis, maybe i consider them as  hero, for exemple in the algerian revolution you have emir abdelkader.

In general in traditional suni islam you have two school of thought, if you want to distinguish them we can say the first is an islamic scholastic theology, this school is majority in african arab country, levant country and non arab sunni country. The second school is against scholastic theology it is the salafist movement and this movement has devolop in 18th century and it is a majority in Gulf country. Now in the last 40 years the second movement because of the petro money has more folowers in other country outside the Gulf but before 40 years it was a minority. Inside this salafist movement you have three school of thought. THe terrorist now are followers of one school of thought. Outside the traditional sunni you have the sunni soufism, and when we talk about sufism we talk about the sufi as a philosophy of ibn arabi and his folowers.

So i don't know where you got your number, you are just doing the orientalism way.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2017, 08:23:52 AM »
Mormonism, for the same reason I dislike other pseudo-Christian sects, like Charismatism.  It purports to be Christianity and confuses people.  Islam, while vile in many ways and more dangerous in a temporal, physical sense, is not as seductive to those who still think they believe in Christ when they embrace the Mormon "Christ", or the Holy Spirit when they embrace the Marquis of Snakes or whichever other foul entity from the pit is causing them to writhe on the floor and jabber in pseudo-tongues.
Well, Muslims do love to seduce Christians with the whole Isa/Maryam thing. Most Muslims I met were former Christians who didn't seem to think much changed beside this whole mushrik Trinity thing.

I have a hard time believing that.  Most Christian converts to Islam are fully aware that they are joining a new religion which contends that Our Lord Jesus Christ is not God Incarnate but simply a prophet, and not even the last or the greatest of those.  I'm not willing to buy the load of malarkey that this is simply a difference between the methods of Islamic missionaries in the USA vs. Brazil either.  The world is clear on the fact that Islam and Christianity are two different faiths.  Not so much with Christianity vs. Charismatic cults or even Christianity vs. "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints".  For simple-minded would-be converts, the choice between Jesus and "Allah" is one thing, while the choice between Jesus and "Jesus" is something else entirely.  In the latter case, they are not always aware that they are leaving Christianity.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline juliogb

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2017, 10:46:23 AM »
Not really the Brazilian case, where it's basically former Protestants. Maybe it's their da'wah method here.

Really? I dont know anything about muslim proselytism in Brazil, I never found a islamic preacher, I do know some muslims but they never tried to convert me.

Despite some level of simpathy I have for shi'as and sufis of some peaceful sects like mevlevis, I find Islam more problematic than mormonism. Islam is not just a religion, it is a way of organizing society and state as well, it has political terms in its core doctrine and vocabulary, Islam proposes a model of civilization, and they actually had a civilizations, the great islamic empires, the fatimids, the al andalus, the safavids, mughals and others. Mormonism in the other side, as far as I understand, is more of a offshoot of northamerican protestantism and religiosity, looks like a religion specially tailored for anglo-saxon north american culture, I know they proselytize but still, looks like a made up religion like wicca.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2017, 11:24:14 AM »
I have a hard time believing that.  Most Christian converts to Islam are fully aware that they are joining a new religion which contends that Our Lord Jesus Christ is not God Incarnate but simply a prophet, and not even the last or the greatest of those.
They're too poorly catechised to care anyway. They may say Muslims are "the real Christians", and their proselytism books are all about drawing similarities with the Christian faith, while still trying to look like a corrected version, extensively quoting the Holy Scriptures to support their blasphemy.

Quote
In the latter case, they are not always aware that they are leaving Christianity.
OK, this I give you. Mormons are probably unaware they're changing religion, while Muslims pretty much know it, although their proselytisers may love to make it sound like they're just tasting the real thing they'd been always looking for.

Really? I dont know anything about muslim proselytism in Brazil, I never found a islamic preacher, I do know some muslims but they never tried to convert me.
I had some interaction with the local Muslim community back in 2014/2015, and some ironies of destiny brought me back into this milieu recently.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 11:24:42 AM by RaphaCam »
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2017, 12:40:25 PM »
Quote
I had some interaction with the local Muslim community back in 2014/2015, and some ironies of destiny brought me back into this milieu recently.

There was a Daesh supporter in one of Rio's mosques.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2017, 12:47:09 PM »
I have a hard time believing that.  Most Christian converts to Islam are fully aware that they are joining a new religion which contends that Our Lord Jesus Christ is not God Incarnate but simply a prophet, and not even the last or the greatest of those.
They're too poorly catechised to care anyway. They may say Muslims are "the real Christians", and their proselytism books are all about drawing similarities with the Christian faith, while still trying to look like a corrected version, extensively quoting the Holy Scriptures to support their blasphemy.

Still serves as an excuse for what the convert was moved to do for reasons of cultural dissatisfaction. Nobody thinks, Oh here's a denomination that is closer to Jesus than my Pentecostal church was -- let me join!
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2017, 01:18:10 PM »
Quote
I had some interaction with the local Muslim community back in 2014/2015, and some ironies of destiny brought me back into this milieu recently.

There was a Daesh supporter in one of Rio's mosques.
He wasn't an actual member, though, just some madman who appeared there already supporting ISIS and caused a lot of headache. The most notorious ISIS supporter in Brazil was expelled from the musalla of João Pessoa as soon as his companions realised his extremism, and the girl from Pará who ended up in ISIS retreated from the Belém mosque months before leaving the country. Our communities are rather moderate, but the internet age finds a lot of space for madness inside any fraction of the Ummah.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 01:19:34 PM by RaphaCam »
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2017, 01:26:17 PM »
Quote
I had some interaction with the local Muslim community back in 2014/2015, and some ironies of destiny brought me back into this milieu recently.

There was a Daesh supporter in one of Rio's mosques.
He wasn't an actual member, though, just some madman who appeared there already supporting ISIS and caused a lot of headache. The most notorious ISIS supporter in Brazil was expelled from the musalla of João Pessoa as soon as his companions realised his extremism, and the girl from Pará who ended up in ISIS retreated from the Belém mosque months before leaving the country. Our communities are rather moderate, but the internet age finds a lot of space for madness inside any fraction of the Ummah.


Yeah, brazilian muslims are quite liberal I guess. Sheikh Imram Hossein went to my town once to talk with the local muslim community, he simpathyses with orthodox christianity.


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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2017, 01:30:56 PM »
Our communities are rather moderate, but the internet age finds a lot of space for madness inside any fraction of the Ummah.
Also, I suspect most of the Islamic diaspora and maybe even Muslim countries have roughly the same scenario.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2017, 01:38:29 PM »
Our communities are rather moderate, but the internet age finds a lot of space for madness inside any fraction of the Ummah.
Also, I suspect most of the Islamic diaspora and maybe even Muslim countries have roughly the same scenario.

Exactly. The Muslim-majority countries were overrun by this radical stuff before anybody else was. Some have fought back hard, others (like Saudi Arabia) seem to have embraced it.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2017, 01:40:30 PM »
Which religion do you dislike/hate more? Mormonism or Islam?
Mormonism because at least in Islam they believe in God/Allah the non-pantheistic divine Supreme Being and Creator of the world. And if someone is Muslim, I think that they are not actually required to do the bad things that many Muslims like in ISIS and Saudi Arabian prisons do.

In Mormonism as I understand it, "God" is actually a space alien who lives on another planet.

Quote
The doctrine of eternal progression was succinctly summarized by LDS Church leader Lorenzo Snow: "As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be."[2][3] According to Smith's King Follett discourse, God the Father himself once passed through mortality as Jesus did, but how, when, or where that took place is unclear. The prevailing view among Mormons is that God once lived on a planet with his own higher god.[4][5]

According to Mormon scripture, the Earth's creation was not ex nihilo, but organized from existing matter. The Earth is just one of many inhabited worlds, and there are many governing heavenly bodies, including the planet or star Kolob, which is said to be nearest the throne of God.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_cosmologyhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_cosmology

Quote
Mormonism teaches that God used to be a man on another world, and that he became a god by following the laws and ordinances of his god on his home world.  He brought his wife to this world, a woman he had married on the other world.  She is essentially a goddess.

In his present god-state, he rules our world.  He has a body of flesh and bones.  Since god and his wife are both exalted persons, they each possess physical bodies.  In their exalted states as deities, they produce spirit children that grow and mature in the spiritual realm.  The first spirit born was Jesus.  Afterwards, Lucifer was born along with the rest of us.  So, Mormonism teaches that we all pre-existed in the spirit realm - having been produced from the union of god and his goddess wife.  Therefore, we all existed in spirit form before coming down and entering the bodies of human babies that are being born on earth.  During this ‘compression' into the infant state, the memories of our pre-existence is 'veiled.'
https://carm.org/mormonism-in-a-nutshell
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 01:41:48 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2017, 01:50:28 PM »
Worth keeping in mind that Mormon doctrine is malleable and can be changed at any time by decree of the Prophet and his apostles. Also, that Mormons tend to be made up largely of converts. Therefore, it's not accurate to say current Mormons believe something from 1860 or 1960. In fact they may never even have heard of an older belief. In 2000, there was a huge push by Mormon leadership to reframe doctrine in more-nearly Evangelical terms. In addition, the denial of some aspects of the past was softened, as church scholars engaged detractors in a bit more moderate fashion. It was around that time Christianity Today began to float the idea that Mormons may be Christians and include editorials by Mormon writers.

Eventually, it's not inconceivable the LDS church could come to resemble the other major branch of Mormonism, which now calls itself the Community of Christ. They don't use the Book of Mormon in services, their leadership is elected, and they officially leave doctrine and belief up to the individual.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2017, 01:53:09 PM »
Mormonism, for the same reason I dislike other pseudo-Christian sects, like Charismatism.  It purports to be Christianity and confuses people.  Islam, while vile in many ways and more dangerous in a temporal, physical sense, is not as seductive to those who still think they believe in Christ when they embrace the Mormon "Christ", or the Holy Spirit when they embrace the Marquis of Snakes or whichever other foul entity from the pit is causing them to writhe on the floor and jabber in pseudo-tongues.

I assume your reference to a Marquis of Snakes is a speculative or hypothetical diabolical character?
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2017, 01:54:41 PM »
Which religion do you dislike/hate more? Mormonism or Islam?

(Note: These are about the religions (i.e the ideas) of Islam and Mormonism NOT the followers of Mormonism or Islam. As Christians, we should pray for followers of both these religions so that they may see the light of Christ and come and follow him.)

I kind of side with AN on this; Mormonism leads the faithful astray by being counterfeit Christianity
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

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This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2017, 01:55:29 PM »
Mormonism, for the same reason I dislike other pseudo-Christian sects, like Charismatism.  It purports to be Christianity and confuses people.  Islam, while vile in many ways and more dangerous in a temporal, physical sense, is not as seductive to those who still think they believe in Christ when they embrace the Mormon "Christ", or the Holy Spirit when they embrace the Marquis of Snakes or whichever other foul entity from the pit is causing them to writhe on the floor and jabber in pseudo-tongues.

I assume your reference to a Marquis of Snakes is a speculative or hypothetical diabolical character?

The Marquis of Snakes
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2017, 02:03:02 PM »
They're too poorly catechised to care anyway.

It doesn't take extensive catechesis for a Christian of any stripe to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that God is a Trinity and that Islam is a separate religion altogether.  This is not the case with pseudo-Christian cults like Mormonism which parrots much of Christian terminology, but with an entirely different meaning.

And if someone is sophisticated enough to make the kind of weird, stretch of an argument that you're making below, it's not that they're poorly catechized, it's that they're willfully deluding themselves. 

They may say Muslims are "the real Christians", and their proselytism books are all about drawing similarities with the Christian faith, while still trying to look like a corrected version, extensively quoting the Holy Scriptures to support their blasphemy.

They're not trying to look like a "corrected version" of Christianity.  They're trying to look like the next and final revelation of God to His people.  I doubt that many apostates would say that they embraced Islam because it was "real Christianity", but rather the fulfillment of Judaism and Christianity.

Quote
In the latter case, they are not always aware that they are leaving Christianity.
OK, this I give you. Mormons are probably unaware they're changing religion, while Muslims pretty much know it, although their proselytisers may love to make it sound like they're just tasting the real thing they'd been always looking for.

The real thing, as in a faithful interpretation of God's revelation, yes.  The "real Christianity", not so much.

Unfortunately, in North America at least, there's also the racial factor.  If you say to the average whitebread American the word "Christian" (which to him means Protestant) he pictures:



Mormon:



Even Jehovah's Witness:



But Muslim:



Or maybe:



You know, something his punk behind finds physically threatening, as opposed to the more subtle but absolutely poisonous and soul-destroying spiritual threat cloaked in a veneer he finds more "wholesome" and acceptable.

I had a long debate with one of my least favorite posters in the history of oc.net - a brainwashed boob - who was insistent that Mormons actually worshipped the Christian God (never mind planet Kolob), and I was judgmental to claim they didn't, while, he asserted, Muslims absolutely did not.  ::)
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2017, 02:05:00 PM »
I have a hard time believing that.  Most Christian converts to Islam are fully aware that they are joining a new religion which contends that Our Lord Jesus Christ is not God Incarnate but simply a prophet, and not even the last or the greatest of those.
They're too poorly catechised to care anyway. They may say Muslims are "the real Christians", and their proselytism books are all about drawing similarities with the Christian faith, while still trying to look like a corrected version, extensively quoting the Holy Scriptures to support their blasphemy.

Still serves as an excuse for what the convert was moved to do for reasons of cultural dissatisfaction. Nobody thinks, Oh here's a denomination that is closer to Jesus than my Pentecostal church was -- let me join!

+1
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2017, 02:07:56 PM »
I love Brother Mouzone. I wish he got more screen-time.
Quote
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2017, 02:13:25 PM »
I love Brother Mouzone. I wish he got more screen-time.

You and I really have to grab a coffee and talk TV some day!  ;D
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2017, 02:21:02 PM »
I love Brother Mouzone. I wish he got more screen-time.

You and I really have to grab a coffee and talk TV some day!  ;D

Indeed!
Quote
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2017, 02:27:23 PM »
Worth keeping in mind that Mormon doctrine is malleable and can be changed at any time by decree of the Prophet and his apostles. Also, that Mormons tend to be made up largely of converts. Therefore, it's not accurate to say current Mormons believe something from 1860 or 1960. In fact they may never even have heard of an older belief. In 2000, there was a huge push by Mormon leadership to reframe doctrine in more-nearly Evangelical terms. In addition, the denial of some aspects of the past was softened, as church scholars engaged detractors in a bit more moderate fashion. It was around that time Christianity Today began to float the idea that Mormons may be Christians and include editorials by Mormon writers.

Eventually, it's not inconceivable the LDS church could come to resemble the other major branch of Mormonism, which now calls itself the Community of Christ. They don't use the Book of Mormon in services, their leadership is elected, and they officially leave doctrine and belief up to the individual.

The Community of Christ (which was the Reorganized Church of LDS until the early 2000s) is noteworthy in that they kept their line of Prophet-Presidents through Joseph Smith's descendants into the 1990s. After the last Smith retired, they adopted the election model.

While one of their more recent presidents has gone on record as saying the Book of Mormon isn't a litmus test for membership, they still very much consider it scripture; what's fascinating about it is they publish a different BOM from that of the Young-LDS out of Utah, and it's supposedly closer to the original with fewer edits. Their edition of Doctrine and Covenants is officially considered open canon. They also publish Joseph Smith's KJV that was supposedly corrected under inspiration from the Spirit.

My brother had a friend in high school whom was a member of their local congregation. He had a huge leather-bound volume with the corrected KJV, BOM and D&C in it he carried around school. Kid became super pious after a pilgrimage to Navoo.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2017, 02:46:16 PM »
Kid became super pious after a pilgrimage to Navoo.

Meesa no carin' about the Navoo.

I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2017, 02:50:27 PM »
It doesn't take extensive catechesis for a Christian of any stripe to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that God is a Trinity and that Islam is a separate religion altogether.  This is not the case with pseudo-Christian cults like Mormonism which parrots much of Christian terminology, but with an entirely different meaning.

And if someone is sophisticated enough to make the kind of weird, stretch of an argument that you're making below, it's not that they're poorly catechized, it's that they're willfully deluding themselves.
Yeah, but poor catechesis may lead people to be very easily convinced that the Holy Trinity is just an invention by Constantine or some piece of Mithraic syncretism (whatever suits the proselytiser better). Someone who has studied the Gospel with care and orientation won't be so easily deluded.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 02:50:54 PM by RaphaCam »
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2017, 02:54:29 PM »
I don't know what mormon believe. About islam it is difficult for me to hate, Some of my childhood friend are muslim and my first love was a muslim women. There is not one islam, i appreciate Sufism and most of my read now are sufism poetry, i like the popular culture in islam

Orthodox Sunni Islam, the violent and dangerous one, is 90% of Muslims. Many jihadis have been Sufis.

What is the definition of orthodox sunni islam? Give me this name of this jihadis who have been sufis, maybe i consider them as  hero, for exemple in the algerian revolution you have emir abdelkader.

In general in traditional suni islam you have two school of thought, if you want to distinguish them we can say the first is an islamic scholastic theology, this school is majority in african arab country, levant country and non arab sunni country. The second school is against scholastic theology it is the salafist movement and this movement has devolop in 18th century and it is a majority in Gulf country. Now in the last 40 years the second movement because of the petro money has more folowers in other country outside the Gulf but before 40 years it was a minority. Inside this salafist movement you have three school of thought. THe terrorist now are followers of one school of thought. Outside the traditional sunni you have the sunni soufism, and when we talk about sufism we talk about the sufi as a philosophy of ibn arabi and his folowers.

So i don't know where you got your number, you are just doing the orientalism way.

I know the 'Ashari/Maturdi school and the Salafi/Athari schools. I know there is division in Sunni Islam, (even among Salafis: the Wahhabi-Madkhalis and the Salafi-jihadis) nevertheless the four madhhab and the consensus of scholars all teach jihad. As did Muhammad, in hundreds of Hadith.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2017, 02:55:23 PM »
Mormonism, for the same reason I dislike other pseudo-Christian sects, like Charismatism.  It purports to be Christianity and confuses people.  Islam, while vile in many ways and more dangerous in a temporal, physical sense, is not as seductive to those who still think they believe in Christ when they embrace the Mormon "Christ", or the Holy Spirit when they embrace the Marquis of Snakes or whichever other foul entity from the pit is causing them to writhe on the floor and jabber in pseudo-tongues.
Well, Muslims do love to seduce Christians with the whole Isa/Maryam thing. Most Muslims I met were former Christians who didn't seem to think much changed beside this whole mushrik Trinity thing.

I have a hard time believing that.  Most Christian converts to Islam are fully aware that they are joining a new religion which contends that Our Lord Jesus Christ is not God Incarnate but simply a prophet, and not even the last or the greatest of those.  I'm not willing to buy the load of malarkey that this is simply a difference between the methods of Islamic missionaries in the USA vs. Brazil either.  The world is clear on the fact that Islam and Christianity are two different faiths.  Not so much with Christianity vs. Charismatic cults or even Christianity vs. "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints".  For simple-minded would-be converts, the choice between Jesus and "Allah" is one thing, while the choice between Jesus and "Jesus" is something else entirely.  In the latter case, they are not always aware that they are leaving Christianity.

Nominal Christians are really the biggest victims of Islamic proselytism.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2017, 02:57:47 PM »
Quote
I had some interaction with the local Muslim community back in 2014/2015, and some ironies of destiny brought me back into this milieu recently.

There was a Daesh supporter in one of Rio's mosques.
He wasn't an actual member, though, just some madman who appeared there already supporting ISIS and caused a lot of headache. The most notorious ISIS supporter in Brazil was expelled from the musalla of João Pessoa as soon as his companions realised his extremism, and the girl from Pará who ended up in ISIS retreated from the Belém mosque months before leaving the country. Our communities are rather moderate, but the internet age finds a lot of space for madness inside any fraction of the Ummah.


Yeah, brazilian muslims are quite liberal I guess. Sheikh Imram Hossein went to my town once to talk with the local muslim community, he simpathyses with orthodox christianity.

Only because he believes we'll help bring on the end times, that same Sheikh Imran is featured on Youtube channels alongside Imam Anwar al-Awlaki.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #52 on: June 26, 2017, 03:03:40 PM »
It doesn't take extensive catechesis for a Christian of any stripe to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that God is a Trinity and that Islam is a separate religion altogether.  This is not the case with pseudo-Christian cults like Mormonism which parrots much of Christian terminology, but with an entirely different meaning.

And if someone is sophisticated enough to make the kind of weird, stretch of an argument that you're making below, it's not that they're poorly catechized, it's that they're willfully deluding themselves.
Yeah, but poor catechesis may lead people to be very easily convinced that the Holy Trinity is just an invention by Constantine or some piece of Mithraic syncretism (whatever suits the proselytiser better). Someone who has studied the Gospel with care and orientation won't be so easily deluded.

That's true, but none of that will lead to them regarding Islam as "the real Christianity".  It will simply lead to them regarding Christianity as a false religion.

Mormonism, for the same reason I dislike other pseudo-Christian sects, like Charismatism.  It purports to be Christianity and confuses people.  Islam, while vile in many ways and more dangerous in a temporal, physical sense, is not as seductive to those who still think they believe in Christ when they embrace the Mormon "Christ", or the Holy Spirit when they embrace the Marquis of Snakes or whichever other foul entity from the pit is causing them to writhe on the floor and jabber in pseudo-tongues.
Well, Muslims do love to seduce Christians with the whole Isa/Maryam thing. Most Muslims I met were former Christians who didn't seem to think much changed beside this whole mushrik Trinity thing.

I have a hard time believing that.  Most Christian converts to Islam are fully aware that they are joining a new religion which contends that Our Lord Jesus Christ is not God Incarnate but simply a prophet, and not even the last or the greatest of those.  I'm not willing to buy the load of malarkey that this is simply a difference between the methods of Islamic missionaries in the USA vs. Brazil either.  The world is clear on the fact that Islam and Christianity are two different faiths.  Not so much with Christianity vs. Charismatic cults or even Christianity vs. "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints".  For simple-minded would-be converts, the choice between Jesus and "Allah" is one thing, while the choice between Jesus and "Jesus" is something else entirely.  In the latter case, they are not always aware that they are leaving Christianity.

Nominal Christians are really the biggest victims of Islamic proselytism.

Who do you think are the biggest victims of Mormon proselytism or JW proselytism?  Kali cultists?  Besides, none of this invalidates the point I was making: Islam is not the Trojan horse that pseudo-Christian cults are.  Islam doesn't masquerade as Christianity.  The would-be apostate has a clear choice between Christianity and something he knows is not Christianity.  In the case of a pseudo-Christian cult like Mormonism (Adventism, JW, et al) the would-be apostate has a choice between Christianity and what he thinks is another form of Christianity.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 03:06:01 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2017, 10:59:13 PM »
Mormonism, for the same reason I dislike other pseudo-Christian sects, like Charismatism.  It purports to be Christianity and confuses people.  Islam, while vile in many ways and more dangerous in a temporal, physical sense, is not as seductive to those who still think they believe in Christ when they embrace the Mormon "Christ", or the Holy Spirit when they embrace the Marquis of Snakes or whichever other foul entity from the pit is causing them to writhe on the floor and jabber in pseudo-tongues.
Well, Muslims do love to seduce Christians with the whole Isa/Maryam thing. Most Muslims I met were former Christians who didn't seem to think much changed beside this whole mushrik Trinity thing.

Western young people are converting to Islam because they're following Christ or something like that.

That's quite the bold claim.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #54 on: June 27, 2017, 07:19:57 AM »
Quote
I had some interaction with the local Muslim community back in 2014/2015, and some ironies of destiny brought me back into this milieu recently.

There was a Daesh supporter in one of Rio's mosques.
He wasn't an actual member, though, just some madman who appeared there already supporting ISIS and caused a lot of headache. The most notorious ISIS supporter in Brazil was expelled from the musalla of João Pessoa as soon as his companions realised his extremism, and the girl from Pará who ended up in ISIS retreated from the Belém mosque months before leaving the country. Our communities are rather moderate, but the internet age finds a lot of space for madness inside any fraction of the Ummah.


Yeah, brazilian muslims are quite liberal I guess. Sheikh Imram Hossein went to my town once to talk with the local muslim community, he simpathyses with orthodox christianity.

Only because he believes we'll help bring on the end times, that same Sheikh Imran is featured on Youtube channels alongside Imam Anwar al-Awlaki.

Really? I had no idea about his connection to jihadists. How the orthodox church would help to bring the end times?

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2017, 08:15:57 AM »
Hmmm for me both religions are weak. But Mormonism is worse. They teach a plurality of Gods (tritheism) and they dare to say that they are the Church. Islam yes is weak, poor theology but muslims don't believe in many gods but ONE.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #56 on: June 27, 2017, 09:30:39 AM »
Islam has better art. Therefore Islam wins.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2017, 09:50:10 AM »
Perhaps someone is familiar with Mormonism better than me, but it seems to me, ontologically speaking, Mormonism is an atheistic faith.  There's no real divinity, only the promise that all humans will one day have the same "rewards" as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  How did the Father get his "reward" in Mormonism?
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2017, 09:56:29 AM »
Islam has better art. Therefore Islam wins.

There's a reason all Mormon art is destined to become memes.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #59 on: June 27, 2017, 10:01:19 AM »
Perhaps someone is familiar with Mormonism better than me, but it seems to me, ontologically speaking, Mormonism is an atheistic faith.  There's no real divinity, only the promise that all humans will one day have the same "rewards" as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  How did the Father get his "reward" in Mormonism?

Yeah, that's an interesting question. What is the absolute divine principle in Mormonism? Clearly not any of divine personages who were once men. I suppose there could be some abstract idea of Godhead behind them.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #60 on: June 27, 2017, 10:37:15 AM »
Perhaps someone is familiar with Mormonism better than me, but it seems to me, ontologically speaking, Mormonism is an atheistic faith.  There's no real divinity, only the promise that all humans will one day have the same "rewards" as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  How did the Father get his "reward" in Mormonism?

He was obedient to his Heavenly Father, who was obedient to his Heavenly Father, ad infinitum. Somehow they feel this infinite chain of "God"s solves all traditional theological problems.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #61 on: June 27, 2017, 01:04:38 PM »
Most Islamic art is copied from Indian, Zoroastrian and Byzantine sources. And that's in spite of Muhammad's commands prohibiting depictions of anything on Earth.
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Offline William T

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #62 on: June 27, 2017, 01:11:14 PM »
I don't know so much about the word "dislike", I guess I respect and am more used to Islam and I get a bit puzzled when people in America lump Mormons in with Christians.  To me they are easily more distant than Islam.

Some points:

1) Slippery Slopes and consequential / "socially relevant" arguments ought be put on the back burner.  They aren't very good points unless you want to qualify them.  Any doctrine and technique of Christianity, can and in many cases has led to really bad heresy and problems.  This isn't rocket surgery to figure out why, it's a "just so" thing...the same is true with science, or almost any other human endeavor.  I'm pretty sure we could take a sound statement and piece of dogma formulated from someone like St. Athanasius and play a six degree of separation game and up with some heretic or bad behavior by some group.  These are both "post Christian" religions, but I think one is more "post" than the other.

2) Theologically speaking I don't see how one can make the argument that Mormons have a better conception of God than Muslims.  That would require some rube goldberg logic.  You can probably take this a step further and say that they respect and keep a better integrity of who Christ is, and probably the fundamentals of a Abrahamic / Monotheistic world view as a whole much more than the Mormons.

3)  I don't think I've ever been impressed by anything the Mormons have done.  I think maybe they've had some good choir music in the past?  I wouldn't be surprised though if  even that has taken the trend of most American church music and has turned into highly sentimental and derivative Muzak.  I',m sorry if that sounds like a backhand to Mormons, but I'm sorry I just don't "get" much of American styled religiosity.  I get there are very pious, good, and honest people who love Jesus (more than many Orthodox).  I have a pretty tense and tragic view about Islam; but there is no denying they were able to function in a full civilization and produced all the splendors and baggage that come with it.  Mormonism seems more sectarian and cultish...I could see these guys buying "The Benedict Option" book, I don't think your average Muslim would ever fall for that.  Again, I may have some cultural blinders on.

4)  The point Antonious Nikolas made about the Mormons being a more corrupting influence is a good point, and I almost agreed with it.  But I think I may have a refutation to that: things like Iconoclasm was part of an "Islamization" of Christianity.  Islam has had pretty big effects on the Orthodox world.  I heard (?) that they have effected the way our bishops dress and function and that some of these things are relics from us trying to deal with being in an Islamic culture.   I think maybe the claim that right now in the west, Mormonism is going to be more corrupting and subversive.

I'll try and fact check my claim about Bishop garb if someone wants me to
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 01:13:11 PM by William T »
Holy Toledo!

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #63 on: June 27, 2017, 01:14:44 PM »
Most Islamic art is copied from Indian, Zoroastrian and Byzantine sources. And that's in spite of Muhammad's commands prohibiting depictions of anything on Earth.

"Influenced by" is not the same as "copied from."
Quote
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Offline William T

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #64 on: June 27, 2017, 01:15:35 PM »
Most Islamic art is copied from Indian, Zoroastrian and Byzantine sources. And that's in spite of Muhammad's commands prohibiting depictions of anything on Earth.

All artists steal and copy. 

True story: about ten years ago when someone was complaining in smug self righteousness about how some local successful band "ripped off and stole the blues",  I did an actual spit take from laughing so hard.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #65 on: June 27, 2017, 01:27:49 PM »
Most Islamic art is copied from Indian, Zoroastrian and Byzantine sources. And that's in spite of Muhammad's commands prohibiting depictions of anything on Earth.

All artists steal and copy. 

True story: about ten years ago when someone was complaining in smug self righteousness about how some local successful band "ripped off and stole the blues",  I did an actual spit take from laughing so hard.

Because they're not the only ones to have stolen the blues? Or because you're ignorant of American musical history?
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #66 on: June 27, 2017, 01:32:42 PM »
Most Islamic art is copied from Indian, Zoroastrian and Byzantine sources. And that's in spite of Muhammad's commands prohibiting depictions of anything on Earth.

"Influenced by" is not the same as "copied from."

Yes, I realize that. Thus why I used the word 'copied.'
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #67 on: June 27, 2017, 01:33:41 PM »
Most Islamic art is copied from Indian, Zoroastrian and Byzantine sources. And that's in spite of Muhammad's commands prohibiting depictions of anything on Earth.

"Influenced by" is not the same as "copied from."

Yes, I realize that. Thus why I used the word 'copied.'

Then you have no idea what you're talking about.
Quote
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #68 on: June 27, 2017, 01:36:29 PM »
Most Islamic art is copied from Indian, Zoroastrian and Byzantine sources. And that's in spite of Muhammad's commands prohibiting depictions of anything on Earth.

"Influenced by" is not the same as "copied from."

Yes, I realize that. Thus why I used the word 'copied.'

Then you have no idea what you're talking about.

I entirely do. They turned Hindu, Buddhist, Christian sites into Mosques and appropriated their culture.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #69 on: June 27, 2017, 01:38:40 PM »
See William's post above. You don't seem to understand how culture works.
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“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #70 on: June 27, 2017, 01:39:11 PM »
I don't know what mormon believe. About islam it is difficult for me to hate, Some of my childhood friend are muslim and my first love was a muslim women. There is not one islam, i appreciate Sufism and most of my read now are sufism poetry, i like the popular culture in islam

Orthodox Sunni Islam, the violent and dangerous one, is 90% of Muslims. Many jihadis have been Sufis.

I feel that the more tolerant and non-violent religions are often the more "dangerous" ones, with regard to ideology, and it requires more diligent and competent minds.  It's easy to reject a religion that is outright physically dangerous.  You don't need to have a deeply rooted and strong faith for that, even if many succumbed to that religion out of fear, they know deep down they really didn't accept the religion out of personal conviction, but for earthy reasons.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 01:39:30 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #71 on: June 27, 2017, 01:45:30 PM »
See William's post above. You don't seem to understand how culture works.

There's nothing in your post or Williams which has any historical or otherwise intellectual significance, import or value whatsoever in relation to my claim. You're just making empty claims without evidence, the whole canon of Islam comes from Byzantine, Zoroastrian, Buddhist and Hindu sources DIRECTLY, not "influenced" they built Mosques over the Church of St. John the Baptist, the Hagia Sofia, the Alhambra and several others. They appropriated Roman and Greek literature, sciences and philosophy after conquering Alexandria and Antioch, then they used it in their own way before the Crusaders recaptured the Holy Land and re-appropriated them from the Muslim world. Now, if you have an actual criticism against this thesis, then make it. Don't just say "you have no idea what you're talking about" in a condescending, patronizing way without even addressing anything. Make your case.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 01:46:21 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #72 on: June 27, 2017, 01:49:30 PM »
So what you're saying is that Islam simply did to Christianity, Buddhism, etc. what these religions were already doing to other religions and cultures?
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #73 on: June 27, 2017, 01:49:41 PM »
Most Islamic art is copied from Indian, Zoroastrian and Byzantine sources. And that's in spite of Muhammad's commands prohibiting depictions of anything on Earth.

All artists steal and copy. 

True story: about ten years ago when someone was complaining in smug self righteousness about how some local successful band "ripped off and stole the blues",  I did an actual spit take from laughing so hard.

Because they're not the only ones to have stolen the blues? Or because you're ignorant of American musical history?

Your axiomatic dog eat dog philosophy of cultural interaction is a tough enough nut to crack, but when you use the inquisition like questions, it's got me singin' the blues.  My apologies for giving Bo Didley the short end of the stick and ruining his "purity".   

Do you also want to ask me if I stopped beating my wife?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 01:51:23 PM by William T »
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #74 on: June 27, 2017, 01:50:05 PM »
Most Islamic art is copied from Indian, Zoroastrian and Byzantine sources. And that's in spite of Muhammad's commands prohibiting depictions of anything on Earth.

"Influenced by" is not the same as "copied from."

Yes, I realize that. Thus why I used the word 'copied.'

Then you have no idea what you're talking about.

In that case, neither do you. Muslim invaders hired court painters from the local talent. Islam in Iran got Iranian art. Islam in India got Indian art. You'd expect there to be an Arab influence, but there's not. Muslim invaders brought no artistic sensibility and acted merely as patrons. Now, over time there was crossover throughout the eastern Muslim world. Now, iff we're not talking about the visual arts, then "influenced" makes better sense, as the Arabic ideas of music and calligraphy did have an immediate influence on conquered peoples, probably because of the religious connection.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #75 on: June 27, 2017, 01:51:02 PM »
So what you're saying is that Islam simply did to Christianity, Buddhism, etc. what these religions were already doing to other religions and cultures?

Did Christianity appropriate certain elements from pagan culture? Yes. Buddhism; I would be less likely to agree with Buddhism doing it. But no, it's not in the same way or using the same means.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 01:51:17 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #76 on: June 27, 2017, 01:51:08 PM »
Most Islamic art is copied from Indian, Zoroastrian and Byzantine sources. And that's in spite of Muhammad's commands prohibiting depictions of anything on Earth.

All artists steal and copy. 

True story: about ten years ago when someone was complaining in smug self righteousness about how some local successful band "ripped off and stole the blues",  I did an actual spit take from laughing so hard.

Because they're not the only ones to have stolen the blues? Or because you're ignorant of American musical history?

Your axiomatic dog eat dog philosophy of cultural interaction is a tough enough nut to crack, but when you use the inquisition like questions it's got me singin' the blues.  Do you want to ask me if I stopped beating my wife?

What wife?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #77 on: June 27, 2017, 01:52:30 PM »
So what you're saying is that Islam simply did to Christianity, Buddhism, etc. what these religions were already doing to other religions and cultures?

Did Christianity appropriate certain elements from pagan culture? Yes. Buddhism; I would be less likely to agree with Buddhism doing it. But no, it's not in the same way or using the same means.

Buddhism was obscure (probably because it originally amounted to nothing more than the atheistic self-indulgence of a too-clever Brahman prince and a few of his buddies) until it was spread by the sword.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 01:53:17 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline William T

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #78 on: June 27, 2017, 01:52:53 PM »
Most Islamic art is copied from Indian, Zoroastrian and Byzantine sources. And that's in spite of Muhammad's commands prohibiting depictions of anything on Earth.

All artists steal and copy. 

True story: about ten years ago when someone was complaining in smug self righteousness about how some local successful band "ripped off and stole the blues",  I did an actual spit take from laughing so hard.

Because they're not the only ones to have stolen the blues? Or because you're ignorant of American musical history?

Your axiomatic dog eat dog philosophy of cultural interaction is a tough enough nut to crack, but when you use the inquisition like questions it's got me singin' the blues.  Do you want to ask me if I stopped beating my wife?

What wife?

OK, as seems to be usual with you...this conversation is over unless a third party needs clarification
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #79 on: June 27, 2017, 01:53:29 PM »
So what you're saying is that Islam simply did to Christianity, Buddhism, etc. what these religions were already doing to other religions and cultures?

Did Christianity appropriate certain elements from pagan culture? Yes. Buddhism; I would be less likely to agree with Buddhism doing it.

Buddhism appropriate massively from its host cultures, like pretty much any successful world religion. Christianity as well.

Quote
But no, it's not in the same way or using the same means.

How so?
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
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Offline William T

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #80 on: June 27, 2017, 01:58:05 PM »
Another quick overly simplistic point I just thought of when thinking about Islam and Mormonism as post Christian religions:


1)  You can make the argument that Islam is three fairly simple degrees from Orthodoxy:  Orthodoxy - Nestorianism - Islam....it then conquered the Byzantine / Orthodox world, which it then absorbed much of giving it even more direct contact with Orthodoxy.

2)  Mormonism by contrast has how many degrees of separation with anything resembling Classical Christianity?  As far as I can tell it may be removed pretty far from the Catholic Church.  Either way, I think the "degrees" are hard to pin down due to how Christianity sprung up in America and how we look at this kind of "low Protestantism".
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #81 on: June 27, 2017, 02:23:12 PM »
So what you're saying is that Islam simply did to Christianity, Buddhism, etc. what these religions were already doing to other religions and cultures?

Did Christianity appropriate certain elements from pagan culture? Yes. Buddhism; I would be less likely to agree with Buddhism doing it. But no, it's not in the same way or using the same means.

Buddhism I think was fairly peaceful compared to most religions in history, even though it has also its history of violence
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 02:25:03 PM by beebert »
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #82 on: June 27, 2017, 02:24:35 PM »
Mormonism, for the same reason I dislike other pseudo-Christian sects, like Charismatism.  It purports to be Christianity and confuses people.  Islam, while vile in many ways and more dangerous in a temporal, physical sense, is not as seductive to those who still think they believe in Christ when they embrace the Mormon "Christ", or the Holy Spirit when they embrace the Marquis of Snakes or whichever other foul entity from the pit is causing them to writhe on the floor and jabber in pseudo-tongues.

I assume your reference to a Marquis of Snakes is a speculative or hypothetical diabolical character?

The Marquis of Snakes

Nasty
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #83 on: June 27, 2017, 02:25:55 PM »
So what you're saying is that Islam simply did to Christianity, Buddhism, etc. what these religions were already doing to other religions and cultures?

Did Christianity appropriate certain elements from pagan culture? Yes. Buddhism; I would be less likely to agree with Buddhism doing it. But no, it's not in the same way or using the same means.

Buddhism was obscure (probably because it originally amounted to nothing more than the atheistic self-indulgence of a too-clever Brahman prince and a few of his buddies) until it was spread by the sword.
So you have no problem admitting that buddhism was spread by the sword, but when it comes to christianity, historically the most violent of religions along with islam, you deny it? Or do you only deny that christianity has at many times in history been anti-semitic? I wouldn't pick down on Buddha by the way. He was a genius and a brilliant man in his own right. At least he sought he truth and desired peace etc.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 02:27:55 PM by beebert »
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #84 on: June 27, 2017, 02:31:34 PM »
So what you're saying is that Islam simply did to Christianity, Buddhism, etc. what these religions were already doing to other religions and cultures?

Did Christianity appropriate certain elements from pagan culture? Yes. Buddhism; I would be less likely to agree with Buddhism doing it. But no, it's not in the same way or using the same means.

Buddhism was obscure (probably because it originally amounted to nothing more than the atheistic self-indulgence of a too-clever Brahman prince and a few of his buddies) until it was spread by the sword.
So you have no problem admitting that buddhism was spread by the sword, but when it comes to christianity, historically the most violent of religions along with islam, you deny it? Or do you only deny that christianity has at many times in history been anti-semitic? I wouldn't pick down on Buddha by the way. He was a genius and a brilliant man in his own right. At least he sought he truth and desired peace etc.

Little known fact: Buddha was a Calvinist.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline William T

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #85 on: June 27, 2017, 02:32:36 PM »
Yeah after a quick search I do remember listening to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSiVjlknuSw

Good stuff.  So that strongly reinforces my intuition that Mormons have a strong choir tradition
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #86 on: June 27, 2017, 02:32:57 PM »
Kid became super pious after a pilgrimage to Navoo.

Meesa no carin' about the Navoo.



ROFL!

Whereas Jar Jar was an extreme annoyance, had Lucas used a bit of restraint, there were elements to the Nauvoo and Gungan planetscapes that were spectacularly beautiful and mesmerising.  The villas of the former, the underwater cities of the latter.  I honestly think if TPM had spent more time exploring Nauvoo and Coruscant in a leisurely manner and less time trying to "tie up loose ends" (which is, in a prequel, silly, the most moronic bit being Anakin constructing C3P0), it would have been more popular.  Even Jar Jar might have been better received if he were less than a one dimensional comic relief sidekick.

But I digress.

~

Your central thesis, that Mormonism attracts mainly would be Christians, amd aggressively targets the Orthodox for proselytism, is spot on.  I visited a Mormon meeting place once for a Christmas concert and felt a profound lingering evil. 

Individual Mormons are very loving people, which makes the tragedy of their prelest that much worse.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #87 on: June 27, 2017, 02:33:49 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murderers and not Christianity itself. It is a very important difference. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 02:35:40 PM by Alkis »
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #88 on: June 27, 2017, 02:34:43 PM »
So what you're saying is that Islam simply did to Christianity, Buddhism, etc. what these religions were already doing to other religions and cultures?

Did Christianity appropriate certain elements from pagan culture? Yes. Buddhism; I would be less likely to agree with Buddhism doing it. But no, it's not in the same way or using the same means.

Buddhism was obscure (probably because it originally amounted to nothing more than the atheistic self-indulgence of a too-clever Brahman prince and a few of his buddies) until it was spread by the sword.
So you have no problem admitting that buddhism was spread by the sword, but when it comes to christianity, historically the most violent of religions along with islam, you deny it? Or do you only deny that christianity has at many times in history been anti-semitic? I wouldn't pick down on Buddha by the way. He was a genius and a brilliant man in his own right. At least he sought he truth and desired peace etc.

Little known fact: Buddha was a Calvinist.
Even if I know that is not true: Who cares if he would have been. A brilliant man is a brilliant man. Calvin was brilliant too in his own right.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline William T

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #89 on: June 27, 2017, 02:35:19 PM »
So what you're saying is that Islam simply did to Christianity, Buddhism, etc. what these religions were already doing to other religions and cultures?

Did Christianity appropriate certain elements from pagan culture? Yes. Buddhism; I would be less likely to agree with Buddhism doing it. But no, it's not in the same way or using the same means.

Buddhism was obscure (probably because it originally amounted to nothing more than the atheistic self-indulgence of a too-clever Brahman prince and a few of his buddies) until it was spread by the sword.
So you have no problem admitting that buddhism was spread by the sword, but when it comes to christianity, historically the most violent of religions along with islam, you deny it? Or do you only deny that christianity has at many times in history been anti-semitic? I wouldn't pick down on Buddha by the way. He was a genius and a brilliant man in his own right. At least he sought he truth and desired peace etc.

Little known fact: Buddha was a Calvinist.

Were I really clever I would do an acrostic that could somehow utilize the Four Noble Truths in TULIP, unfortunately I'm not so clever
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #90 on: June 27, 2017, 02:35:33 PM »
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #91 on: June 27, 2017, 02:36:41 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #92 on: June 27, 2017, 02:38:25 PM »
So what you're saying is that Islam simply did to Christianity, Buddhism, etc. what these religions were already doing to other religions and cultures?

Did Christianity appropriate certain elements from pagan culture? Yes. Buddhism; I would be less likely to agree with Buddhism doing it. But no, it's not in the same way or using the same means.

Buddhism was obscure (probably because it originally amounted to nothing more than the atheistic self-indulgence of a too-clever Brahman prince and a few of his buddies) until it was spread by the sword.
So you have no problem admitting that buddhism was spread by the sword, but when it comes to christianity, historically the most violent of religions along with islam, you deny it? Or do you only deny that christianity has at many times in history been anti-semitic? I wouldn't pick down on Buddha by the way. He was a genius and a brilliant man in his own right. At least he sought he truth and desired peace etc.

Little known fact: Buddha was a Calvinist.

Were I really clever I would do an acrostic that could somehow utilize the Four Noble Truths in TULIP, unfortunately I'm not so clever
It seems one must admit that buddhism looks like the far superior religion of the two if one would summarize buddhism into the Four Noble Truths and christianity into TULIP.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 02:38:53 PM by beebert »
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #93 on: June 27, 2017, 02:39:31 PM »
Calvin was brilliant

I knew it!
Brilliant doesn't mean that he was a good man. It would have been better if he never had been born surely.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #94 on: June 27, 2017, 02:40:01 PM »
So what you're saying is that Islam simply did to Christianity, Buddhism, etc. what these religions were already doing to other religions and cultures?

Did Christianity appropriate certain elements from pagan culture? Yes. Buddhism; I would be less likely to agree with Buddhism doing it. But no, it's not in the same way or using the same means.

Buddhism was obscure (probably because it originally amounted to nothing more than the atheistic self-indulgence of a too-clever Brahman prince and a few of his buddies) until it was spread by the sword.
So you have no problem admitting that buddhism was spread by the sword, but when it comes to christianity, historically the most violent of religions along with islam, you deny it? Or do you only deny that christianity has at many times in history been anti-semitic? I wouldn't pick down on Buddha by the way. He was a genius and a brilliant man in his own right. At least he sought he truth and desired peace etc.

I do?

Quote
christianity, historically the most violent of religions

You might want to rethink that. Egyptians, Sumerians, Babylonians, Assyrians, West Africans, South Americans ... and on and on. All ancient bloody civilizations arose amid a religion and altered and perpetuated that religion for their purposes.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #95 on: June 27, 2017, 02:41:41 PM »
So what you're saying is that Islam simply did to Christianity, Buddhism, etc. what these religions were already doing to other religions and cultures?

Did Christianity appropriate certain elements from pagan culture? Yes. Buddhism; I would be less likely to agree with Buddhism doing it. But no, it's not in the same way or using the same means.

Buddhism was obscure (probably because it originally amounted to nothing more than the atheistic self-indulgence of a too-clever Brahman prince and a few of his buddies) until it was spread by the sword.
So you have no problem admitting that buddhism was spread by the sword, but when it comes to christianity, historically the most violent of religions along with islam, you deny it? Or do you only deny that christianity has at many times in history been anti-semitic? I wouldn't pick down on Buddha by the way. He was a genius and a brilliant man in his own right. At least he sought he truth and desired peace etc.

I do?

Quote
christianity, historically the most violent of religions

You might want to rethink that. Egyptians, Sumerians, Babylonians, Assyrians, West Africans, South Americans ... and on and on. All ancient bloody civilizations arose amid a religion and altered and perpetuated that religion for their purposes.
No I asked you if you did.

Hmm... I would still give the prize to christianity and islam. The forced conversions by violence around half the globe and the inquisitions and the crusade is enough. And there is more to it. And since christianity really is the religion that holds the keys to heaven and hell(which, remind you, is eternal torture), every sort of distortion of that truth in practice by the christian herd is probably the worst possible crime. Historically, correct doctrine has been more important than correct practice. But that is not a typical christian mistake though, it is a human one.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 02:44:01 PM by beebert »
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“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #97 on: June 27, 2017, 02:42:26 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline William T

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #98 on: June 27, 2017, 02:45:55 PM »
So what you're saying is that Islam simply did to Christianity, Buddhism, etc. what these religions were already doing to other religions and cultures?

Did Christianity appropriate certain elements from pagan culture? Yes. Buddhism; I would be less likely to agree with Buddhism doing it. But no, it's not in the same way or using the same means.

Buddhism was obscure (probably because it originally amounted to nothing more than the atheistic self-indulgence of a too-clever Brahman prince and a few of his buddies) until it was spread by the sword.
So you have no problem admitting that buddhism was spread by the sword, but when it comes to christianity, historically the most violent of religions along with islam, you deny it? Or do you only deny that christianity has at many times in history been anti-semitic? I wouldn't pick down on Buddha by the way. He was a genius and a brilliant man in his own right. At least he sought he truth and desired peace etc.

Little known fact: Buddha was a Calvinist.

Were I really clever I would do an acrostic that could somehow utilize the Four Noble Truths in TULIP, unfortunately I'm not so clever
It seems one must admit that buddhism looks like the far superior religion of the two if one would summarize buddhism into the Four Noble Truths and christianity into TULIP.

I was attempting to make a joke.  I don't really think I have any real ability to translate Buddhism.  All I can say is that the people whom I've  met that actually factually practice it (which isn't many, and all of whom are immigrants) I tend to respect and like their manners and aesthetics.  Though I tend to strongly dislike the college kids and yuppie gentrifiers who flock to it (all of whom are ex-WASPS).
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 02:46:33 PM by William T »
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Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #99 on: June 27, 2017, 02:46:21 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #100 on: June 27, 2017, 02:56:55 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 02:57:24 PM by Alkis »
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #101 on: June 27, 2017, 02:59:20 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!

Pretty easy. Popular Victorian enemies of Christianity become Fathers among the Saints. The Canon is reduced to a handful of partial books. "Do as thou wilt, and it harm not Beebert's feelings," becomes the Creed.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #102 on: June 27, 2017, 03:01:42 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #103 on: June 27, 2017, 03:02:14 PM »
Quote
No I asked you if you did.

Hmm... I would still give the prize to christianity and islam. The forced conversions by violence around half the globe and the inquisitions and the crusade is enough. And there is more to it. And since christianity really is the religion that holds the keys to heaven and hell(which, remind you, is eternal torture), every sort of distortion of that truth in practice by the christian herd is probably the worst possible crime. Historically, correct doctrine has been more important than correct practice. But that is not a typical christian mistake though, it is a human one.

Crusades were a response of a call of eastern romans, aka orthodox, to help them to stop the brutal and massive spread of islam that was ocurring since its inception. The inquisition as far as I know is overly exagerated, 600 years of inquisition never reached the number of death penalties as a normal afternoon during the great terror in the french revolution. The most problematic history time in my view in christianity, at least in western christianity, is in the america's conquering, but it is still debatable, in Brazil for instance, one of the biggest allies of the indigenous against the spanish and portuguese crowns were the jesuits.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #104 on: June 27, 2017, 03:03:51 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.

Yes Popes became very violent at times in the West. Inquisition, Crusades... But what has this to do with the Church of Christ?
For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #105 on: June 27, 2017, 03:04:58 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!

Pretty easy. Popular Victorian enemies of Christianity become Fathers among the Saints. The Canon is reduced to a handful of partial books. "Do as thou wilt, and it harm not Beebert's feelings," becomes the Creed.
Now mind you; I do not at any rate despise christianity as it is practiced by people like Francis of Assisi and Starets Silouan, as I have mentioned so many times. That to me is true christianity. But what institutional christianity(especially in the west) has done in the name of Christ, I despise more than most things. The oppression, the murders, the dogmatic fights, the burning of heretics, the threatenings of hell to poor common people done by a church of power, etc. It is not easy to discover the lovely truth behind all this wickedness done in the name of Christ and God.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 03:05:21 PM by beebert »
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #106 on: June 27, 2017, 03:06:51 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.

Christendom achieved world dominance only after the Reformation and Enlightenment, both of which were massively-successful overthrows of Christianity. Then the worst violence came with the World Wars, when Christendom was largely led by materialist intellectuals. Not to mention just how many centuries had passed. So to seek to compare this with the violence of Islam or Buddhism, which came as part of their origins, may not be ingenuous.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #107 on: June 27, 2017, 03:08:19 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.

Yes Popes became very violent at times in the West. Inquisition, Crusades... But what has this to do with the Church of Christ?
Indirectly, a lot. Directly, not much. The problem is that because of all that, as I mentioned in my above post, people have fled from what they think is christianity, because of what evil people have done in its name. Remember and understand: People like the ones I have already mentioned many times(Silouan, Francis of Assisi etc) I respect more than anything. That IS the truth and surpasses everything. But that is no as easy to discover for an honest man as all the filth done by the institutional church of especially the catholic church.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #108 on: June 27, 2017, 03:09:23 PM »
So I have a personal contribution to this thread, a prayer request.   Please forgive its length. Two of my best friends were and are Muslim and Mormon respectively.

Amuda was my driver in Ghana when I worked there in 2006-2008.  Over the time we were together however, we developed a deep bomd of friendship.  He was not an extremely devout Muslim (his main observance consisted of ritual ablutions connected with Friday prayers).  He was not wealthy; he was from Burkina Faso, an immigrant to the wealthier and healthier land of Ghana. 

Our friendship became deep, and frequently we explored the countryside on weekends, viaiting the national parks, and going on excursions with my friend Colin, the British (and somewhat Christian) creative director at my client's ad agency (who is still with us and still one of my best friends).  Both Amuda and Charles were older than I; Amuda about ten years and Colin, about 20.  I was 20 when I was invited to work as a network engineer in Ghana; I was a bit of a prodigy in terms of computer systems, had the certs, and was both an expat and relatively inexpensive.  I also enjoyed working on our finnicky Alcatel backbone, which consisted of new equipment, but lousy infrastructure, and quite a bit of oversold equipment and equipment not quite ideal for our systems.

Amuda and I became close to the point that when he was married, I returned to the country, around the turn of the decade or so, and was the best man at his wedding.  This did not entail any religious duties; that part occurred in the morning and I was uninvolved.   Rather, at the wedding reception I was seated at the table of honour with Amuda, his bride, and his older brother, his only living adult relative (he had a child by a previous marriage).

Most of those present were from our firm; Ghanaian companies are like families, and everyone was there, including our managing director (Amuda was promoted to driving her after being in the motorpool and driving me, but she in turn gave us the use of her older BMW for excursions on the weekend).   We had about 100 people at our consultancy, and they and their families were at the wedding; most of them were Christians, a few were Muslims. 

We had a funny joke, in that during my year away from Ghana, I grew a beard (this was prior to my conversion to Orthodoxy), but apparently my appearance prompted the marketing director to sing "Hosanna, Loud Hosanna" as a joke when I arrived (his wedding was the week after Easter on the Gregorian calendar).

Later we fell out of touch, he and his wife divorced, he married an American woman and moved with her to this country before dying of cancer last year.

I feel a deep regret that I never engaged with him much in talking about religion.  In my early 20s, religion was important to me, but I was not where I am now spiritually; I lacked the guts to talk to him about Islam.  I can say his knowledge of the faith was limited; he did not eat pork, but ate everything else, including shellfish; he also ate ham, thinking it was beef (from "hamburger") until one day after our lunch was served, I unwittingly pointed out that the ham and cheese sandwich he was about to devour was pork.  Or rather, I asked, "Oh, so you eat pork then?" and thus wound up eating his ham and cheese sandwich, while he had the rather good looking steak I had ordered.

---

Adam is still alive.  When I met him he was sort of an atheist, a bit fond of the Church of the Sungenius (patronized by the author of his favorite OS), but later converted to Mormonism.  He was attracted to several Mormon doctrines, for example, the idea that God did not create the universe ex nihlo, but rather arranged pre-existing matter; he saw this as a solution to the problem with the Big Bang, that being that the universe that originated from it is not uniform (a problem St. Athanasius presciently anticipated in De Incarnatione).

Also, more pressingly, he was attracted to a Mormon woman, who he married, and the Mormon religion provided him with solutions to several of his problems: social isolation, problems in his family, and dysfunctionaloty from being, well, an extreme geek.  He is considerably more functional now than he was before his conversion, but he and I are not as close as we used to be, although in no sense did we fall out; his conversion to Mormonism occurred at roughly the same time I felt driven to convert to Orthodoxy.  The only Orthodox church in his town is a highly ethnocentric GoArch parish without a permanent priest; I tried to share with him my Orthodox journey, but it was not a winning fight.

---

So please pray for my friends Amuda and Adam.  Please pray also that God will forgive me if due to failures on my part they became mired in their religious choices.  My hope is that God will have mercy on Amuda, who was a loving man and a good friend, and forgive his sins, and that God will lead Adam and his wife into the light of Orthodoxy.

At least the Mormons pray to Jesus.  Was it St. John Maximovitch who told us not to worry about the heretics and heterodox who pray to Jesus, having not been Orthodox, because our Lord is infintely merciful, but instead to focus on holding fast to our own faith?  For if we leave the Catholic Church, we become apostates, and reject Christ like the Jews did, but they, not being a part of it but seeking Jesus anyway, might well receive his mercy.

---

Mormonism is the most immediate threat to the Orthodox faith; it directly proselytizes and seeks to convert our members, into a radical non-Nicene Tritheist faith.  The Mormons are the true Monophysites; we Oriental Orthodox are not monophysites and never were; Mormons are the heirs of Eutyches, the leader of the Monophysites, who we have always anathematized, who made our Lord of a nature different from that of the Father and the Spirit, and in turn, the Eutychians then derived from this an actual Tritheism (I have heard John Philoponus, a 6th century Alexandrian theologian and philosopher, had leanings towards this school; I know we do not venerate him as a saint, and I believe he is a heretic).

If a Muslim kills us, for our Christian Orthodox faith, if we confess Jesus and die for Him, our salvation is assured.  The Muslims are trying to exterminate us in the Middle East, but they have tried before and failed; the Church is God-protected, and already in Iraq we are seeing the early dawn of a rebuilding of the Christian communities of Nineveh.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 03:10:03 PM by Alpha60 »
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #109 on: June 27, 2017, 03:10:58 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.

Yes Popes became very violent at times in the West. Inquisition, Crusades... But what has this to do with the Church of Christ?
Indirectly, a lot. Directly, not much. The problem is that because of all that, as I mentioned in my above post, people have fled from what they think is christianity, because of what evil people have done in its name. Remember and understand: People like the ones I have already mentioned many times(Silouan, Francis of Assisi etc) I respect more than anything. That IS the truth and surpasses everything. But that is no as easy to discover for an honest man as all the filth done by the institutional church of especially the catholic church.

This is what I was trying to say. Papism. Papism and Protestantism are the most disastrous accidents of history. To make a throne of a Pope infallible and to believe in ridiculous doctrines like sola scriptura and bible's inerrancy in everything...
For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #110 on: June 27, 2017, 03:12:14 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!

Pretty easy. Popular Victorian enemies of Christianity become Fathers among the Saints. The Canon is reduced to a handful of partial books. "Do as thou wilt, and it harm not Beebert's feelings," becomes the Creed.
Now mind you; I do not at any rate despise christianity as it is practiced by people like Francis of Assisi and Starets Silouan, as I have mentioned so many times. That to me is true christianity. But what institutional christianity(especially in the west) has done in the name of Christ, I despise more than most things. The oppression, the murders, the dogmatic fights, the burning of heretics, the threatenings of hell to poor common people done by a church of power, etc. It is not easy to discover the lovely truth behind all this wickedness done in the name of Christ and God.

Surely you at least occasionally glimpse how much of this is your imagination? For some reason, your ego is pleased to align itself with and even clumsily exaggerate, say, a Schopenhauer. You then give yourself over entirely to negative and histrionic emotion. In the meantime, if you with a cool head can truly say that the prospect of hell is nothing but a sadistic fraud, or, for that matter, that books of the Bible are nothing but sadistic frauds, then, yes, you have a lot of work ahead of you finding the "true Christianity." Please recall that Francis of Assissi or St. Silouan were not men who railed at God or denied the Bible.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #111 on: June 27, 2017, 03:15:27 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.

+100000
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #112 on: June 27, 2017, 03:16:27 PM »
So I have a personal contribution to this thread, a prayer request.   Please forgive its length. Two of my best friends were and are Muslim and Mormon respectively.

Amuda was my driver in Ghana when I worked there in 2006-2008.  Over the time we were together however, we developed a deep bomd of friendship.  He was not an extremely devout Muslim (his main observance consisted of ritual ablutions connected with Friday prayers).  He was not wealthy; he was from Burkina Faso, an immigrant to the wealthier and healthier land of Ghana. 

Our friendship became deep, and frequently we explored the countryside on weekends, viaiting the national parks, and going on excursions with my friend Colin, the British (and somewhat Christian) creative director at my client's ad agency (who is still with us and still one of my best friends).  Both Amuda and Charles were older than I; Amuda about ten years and Colin, about 20.  I was 20 when I was invited to work as a network engineer in Ghana; I was a bit of a prodigy in terms of computer systems, had the certs, and was both an expat and relatively inexpensive.  I also enjoyed working on our finnicky Alcatel backbone, which consisted of new equipment, but lousy infrastructure, and quite a bit of oversold equipment and equipment not quite ideal for our systems.

Amuda and I became close to the point that when he was married, I returned to the country, around the turn of the decade or so, and was the best man at his wedding.  This did not entail any religious duties; that part occurred in the morning and I was uninvolved.   Rather, at the wedding reception I was seated at the table of honour with Amuda, his bride, and his older brother, his only living adult relative (he had a child by a previous marriage).

Most of those present were from our firm; Ghanaian companies are like families, and everyone was there, including our managing director (Amuda was promoted to driving her after being in the motorpool and driving me, but she in turn gave us the use of her older BMW for excursions on the weekend).   We had about 100 people at our consultancy, and they and their families were at the wedding; most of them were Christians, a few were Muslims. 

We had a funny joke, in that during my year away from Ghana, I grew a beard (this was prior to my conversion to Orthodoxy), but apparently my appearance prompted the marketing director to sing "Hosanna, Loud Hosanna" as a joke when I arrived (his wedding was the week after Easter on the Gregorian calendar).

Later we fell out of touch, he and his wife divorced, he married an American woman and moved with her to this country before dying of cancer last year.

I feel a deep regret that I never engaged with him much in talking about religion.  In my early 20s, religion was important to me, but I was not where I am now spiritually; I lacked the guts to talk to him about Islam.  I can say his knowledge of the faith was limited; he did not eat pork, but ate everything else, including shellfish; he also ate ham, thinking it was beef (from "hamburger") until one day after our lunch was served, I unwittingly pointed out that the ham and cheese sandwich he was about to devour was pork.  Or rather, I asked, "Oh, so you eat pork then?" and thus wound up eating his ham and cheese sandwich, while he had the rather good looking steak I had ordered.

---

Adam is still alive.  When I met him he was sort of an atheist, a bit fond of the Church of the Sungenius (patronized by the author of his favorite OS), but later converted to Mormonism.  He was attracted to several Mormon doctrines, for example, the idea that God did not create the universe ex nihlo, but rather arranged pre-existing matter; he saw this as a solution to the problem with the Big Bang, that being that the universe that originated from it is not uniform (a problem St. Athanasius presciently anticipated in De Incarnatione).

Also, more pressingly, he was attracted to a Mormon woman, who he married, and the Mormon religion provided him with solutions to several of his problems: social isolation, problems in his family, and dysfunctionaloty from being, well, an extreme geek.  He is considerably more functional now than he was before his conversion, but he and I are not as close as we used to be, although in no sense did we fall out; his conversion to Mormonism occurred at roughly the same time I felt driven to convert to Orthodoxy.  The only Orthodox church in his town is a highly ethnocentric GoArch parish without a permanent priest; I tried to share with him my Orthodox journey, but it was not a winning fight.

---

So please pray for my friends Amuda and Adam.  Please pray also that God will forgive me if due to failures on my part they became mired in their religious choices.  My hope is that God will have mercy on Amuda, who was a loving man and a good friend, and forgive his sins, and that God will lead Adam and his wife into the light of Orthodoxy.

At least the Mormons pray to Jesus.  Was it St. John Maximovitch who told us not to worry about the heretics and heterodox who pray to Jesus, having not been Orthodox, because our Lord is infintely merciful, but instead to focus on holding fast to our own faith?  For if we leave the Catholic Church, we become apostates, and reject Christ like the Jews did, but they, not being a part of it but seeking Jesus anyway, might well receive his mercy.

---

Mormonism is the most immediate threat to the Orthodox faith; it directly proselytizes and seeks to convert our members, into a radical non-Nicene Tritheist faith.  The Mormons are the true Monophysites; we Oriental Orthodox are not monophysites and never were; Mormons are the heirs of Eutyches, the leader of the Monophysites, who we have always anathematized, who made our Lord of a nature different from that of the Father and the Spirit, and in turn, the Eutychians then derived from this an actual Tritheism (I have heard John Philoponus, a 6th century Alexandrian theologian and philosopher, had leanings towards this school; I know we do not venerate him as a saint, and I believe he is a heretic).

If a Muslim kills us, for our Christian Orthodox faith, if we confess Jesus and die for Him, our salvation is assured.  The Muslims are trying to exterminate us in the Middle East, but they have tried before and failed; the Church is God-protected, and already in Iraq we are seeing the early dawn of a rebuilding of the Christian communities of Nineveh.

Noone said that Mormons or Muslims or Jews are bad. We just say our opinion about their beliefs. And I have Muslim friends and I love them so much and I guest a Jew at my room when I was student at University. I had a friend at high school who was a Jehovah's witness.
May the All-Merciful Lord our God, the Almighty rest your muslim friend's soul in peace and to enlight your mormon friends to convert to the true Church!
For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #113 on: June 27, 2017, 03:18:12 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.

Christendom achieved world dominance only after the Reformation and Enlightenment, both of which were massively-successful overthrows of Christianity. Then the worst violence came with the World Wars, when Christendom was largely led by materialist intellectuals. Not to mention just how many centuries had passed. So to seek to compare this with the violence of Islam or Buddhism, which came as part of their origins, may not be ingenuous.
Hmm... What kind of dominance do you mean that he Catholic Church had during the middle ages then? None? I don't know enough about buddhism to say that violence was part of its origins, but I sure can not find any violence in the teachings of Buddha himself. Now Islam is another story. That is a proclamation of war right from the start.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #114 on: June 27, 2017, 03:18:50 PM »
So I have a personal contribution to this thread, a prayer request. ...

Thanks for sharing, Alpha.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #115 on: June 27, 2017, 03:19:48 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.

Christendom achieved world dominance only after the Reformation and Enlightenment, both of which were massively-successful overthrows of Christianity. Then the worst violence came with the World Wars, when Christendom was largely led by materialist intellectuals. Not to mention just how many centuries had passed. So to seek to compare this with the violence of Islam or Buddhism, which came as part of their origins, may not be ingenuous.
Hmm... What kind of dominance do you mean that he Catholic Church had during the middle ages then? None? I don't know enough about buddhism to say that violence was part of its origins, but I sure can not find any violence in the teachings of Buddha himself. Now Islam is another story. That is a proclamation of war right from the start.

You think Southern Europe in the Middle Ages was a world power? and one of unparalleled violence? You do need to study history more.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #116 on: June 27, 2017, 03:24:22 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!

Pretty easy. Popular Victorian enemies of Christianity become Fathers among the Saints. The Canon is reduced to a handful of partial books. "Do as thou wilt, and it harm not Beebert's feelings," becomes the Creed.
Now mind you; I do not at any rate despise christianity as it is practiced by people like Francis of Assisi and Starets Silouan, as I have mentioned so many times. That to me is true christianity. But what institutional christianity(especially in the west) has done in the name of Christ, I despise more than most things. The oppression, the murders, the dogmatic fights, the burning of heretics, the threatenings of hell to poor common people done by a church of power, etc. It is not easy to discover the lovely truth behind all this wickedness done in the name of Christ and God.

Surely you at least occasionally glimpse how much of this is your imagination? For some reason, your ego is pleased to align itself with and even clumsily exaggerate, say, a Schopenhauer. You then give yourself over entirely to negative and histrionic emotion. In the meantime, if you with a cool head can truly say that the prospect of hell is nothing but a sadistic fraud, or, for that matter, that books of the Bible are nothing but sadistic frauds, then, yes, you have a lot of work ahead of you finding the "true Christianity." Please recall that Francis of Assissi or St. Silouan were not men who railed at God or denied the Bible.
Schopenhauer was a brilliant philosopher. I don't care whether he was a brilliant man in private life or not. Beethoven I believe was the greatest genius to have lived. But he lived an awful private life and was a very rude man. We are all sinners. Have you read 'The World as Will and Representation'? It is shockingly beautiful. I think most of the prospects of hell has been nothing but sadistic frauds yes. And I am not alone among "christians"(I don't like to call myself a christian, because I am not one, I rather would say that at best I am about to become one, or trying to be willing to become one) to think that is the case. Or do you think that all christian writers during the patristic era got their ideas about hell right? I would say that the sadistic inventions of many christians can be traced back to book like the book of revelation in the bible yes. And murders and crimes committed by christians can be traced back to the old testament. Now... Does that mean that what the sadists that interpreted the bible in that sadistic sense were right about the bible? No. But that is not what I have said.  Of course I recall that neither Francis nor Silouan ever railed at God or the bible. And I am far from the truth.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 03:25:09 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #117 on: June 27, 2017, 03:25:39 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

If that were true, then why did St. Athanasius include it in the canon?  St. Athanasius is kind of the lynchpin, because if tou believe Jesus is God, you're followimg the Nicene orthodoxy that he defended against Arianism, and he also happened to write the defintiive 27-book New Testament canon, and a biography of St. Anthony.

This is the central contradiction of Protestantism: they (mostly, except for Martin Luther and a few others) accept the 27 books of the NT as divinely inspired, but the man who first issued the Paschal Encyclical containing the "final cut" we now use, with slightly more books than the East Syriac Peshitta, and a slightly different set than that proposed by Eusebius of Caesarea (an Arian sympathizer), who articulated the principles of the Nicene creed and was the main force at that council, they ignore.  The doctrines he sets out in De Incarnatione are fundamental to their faith, but the doctrines and implied doctrines of the Vita Antonis would be anathema to them).

Our faith is essentially Athanasian Christianity, and my view is that you can't pick and choose whar parts of St. Athanasius to accept or reject, except on very minor details, because the essential information both the Orthodox and heterodox depend upon in our recept of our respective faiths was articulated, defended, preserved, edited and transmitted through him. 

(Much like its impossible to rationally accept Christianity while rejecting St. Paul, or I would argue as a convicted Theopaschite Orthodox who venerates St. Mary, St. Cyril).
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Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #118 on: June 27, 2017, 03:26:56 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.

Christendom achieved world dominance only after the Reformation and Enlightenment, both of which were massively-successful overthrows of Christianity. Then the worst violence came with the World Wars, when Christendom was largely led by materialist intellectuals. Not to mention just how many centuries had passed. So to seek to compare this with the violence of Islam or Buddhism, which came as part of their origins, may not be ingenuous.
Hmm... What kind of dominance do you mean that he Catholic Church had during the middle ages then? None? I don't know enough about buddhism to say that violence was part of its origins, but I sure can not find any violence in the teachings of Buddha himself. Now Islam is another story. That is a proclamation of war right from the start.

You think Southern Europe in the Middle Ages was a world power? and one of unparalleled violence? You do need to study history more.
A power in Europe then. It's influence on our minds today is huge. There are a number of examples of forced conversion throughout the history of Christianity: during the Roman Empire, in the Middle Ages, inquisitions in Spain and Goa, and campaigns by Russian rulers.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #119 on: June 27, 2017, 03:27:19 PM »
So I have a personal contribution to this thread, a prayer request. ...

Thanks for sharing, Alpha.

So I have a personal contribution to this thread, a prayer request.   Please forgive its length. Two of my best friends were and are Muslim and Mormon respectively.

Amuda was my driver in Ghana when I worked there in 2006-2008.  Over the time we were together however, we developed a deep bomd of friendship.  He was not an extremely devout Muslim (his main observance consisted of ritual ablutions connected with Friday prayers).  He was not wealthy; he was from Burkina Faso, an immigrant to the wealthier and healthier land of Ghana. 

Our friendship became deep, and frequently we explored the countryside on weekends, viaiting the national parks, and going on excursions with my friend Colin, the British (and somewhat Christian) creative director at my client's ad agency (who is still with us and still one of my best friends).  Both Amuda and Charles were older than I; Amuda about ten years and Colin, about 20.  I was 20 when I was invited to work as a network engineer in Ghana; I was a bit of a prodigy in terms of computer systems, had the certs, and was both an expat and relatively inexpensive.  I also enjoyed working on our finnicky Alcatel backbone, which consisted of new equipment, but lousy infrastructure, and quite a bit of oversold equipment and equipment not quite ideal for our systems.

Amuda and I became close to the point that when he was married, I returned to the country, around the turn of the decade or so, and was the best man at his wedding.  This did not entail any religious duties; that part occurred in the morning and I was uninvolved.   Rather, at the wedding reception I was seated at the table of honour with Amuda, his bride, and his older brother, his only living adult relative (he had a child by a previous marriage).

Most of those present were from our firm; Ghanaian companies are like families, and everyone was there, including our managing director (Amuda was promoted to driving her after being in the motorpool and driving me, but she in turn gave us the use of her older BMW for excursions on the weekend).   We had about 100 people at our consultancy, and they and their families were at the wedding; most of them were Christians, a few were Muslims. 

We had a funny joke, in that during my year away from Ghana, I grew a beard (this was prior to my conversion to Orthodoxy), but apparently my appearance prompted the marketing director to sing "Hosanna, Loud Hosanna" as a joke when I arrived (his wedding was the week after Easter on the Gregorian calendar).

Later we fell out of touch, he and his wife divorced, he married an American woman and moved with her to this country before dying of cancer last year.

I feel a deep regret that I never engaged with him much in talking about religion.  In my early 20s, religion was important to me, but I was not where I am now spiritually; I lacked the guts to talk to him about Islam.  I can say his knowledge of the faith was limited; he did not eat pork, but ate everything else, including shellfish; he also ate ham, thinking it was beef (from "hamburger") until one day after our lunch was served, I unwittingly pointed out that the ham and cheese sandwich he was about to devour was pork.  Or rather, I asked, "Oh, so you eat pork then?" and thus wound up eating his ham and cheese sandwich, while he had the rather good looking steak I had ordered.

---

Adam is still alive.  When I met him he was sort of an atheist, a bit fond of the Church of the Sungenius (patronized by the author of his favorite OS), but later converted to Mormonism.  He was attracted to several Mormon doctrines, for example, the idea that God did not create the universe ex nihlo, but rather arranged pre-existing matter; he saw this as a solution to the problem with the Big Bang, that being that the universe that originated from it is not uniform (a problem St. Athanasius presciently anticipated in De Incarnatione).

Also, more pressingly, he was attracted to a Mormon woman, who he married, and the Mormon religion provided him with solutions to several of his problems: social isolation, problems in his family, and dysfunctionaloty from being, well, an extreme geek.  He is considerably more functional now than he was before his conversion, but he and I are not as close as we used to be, although in no sense did we fall out; his conversion to Mormonism occurred at roughly the same time I felt driven to convert to Orthodoxy.  The only Orthodox church in his town is a highly ethnocentric GoArch parish without a permanent priest; I tried to share with him my Orthodox journey, but it was not a winning fight.

---

So please pray for my friends Amuda and Adam.  Please pray also that God will forgive me if due to failures on my part they became mired in their religious choices.  My hope is that God will have mercy on Amuda, who was a loving man and a good friend, and forgive his sins, and that God will lead Adam and his wife into the light of Orthodoxy.

At least the Mormons pray to Jesus.  Was it St. John Maximovitch who told us not to worry about the heretics and heterodox who pray to Jesus, having not been Orthodox, because our Lord is infintely merciful, but instead to focus on holding fast to our own faith?  For if we leave the Catholic Church, we become apostates, and reject Christ like the Jews did, but they, not being a part of it but seeking Jesus anyway, might well receive his mercy.

---

Mormonism is the most immediate threat to the Orthodox faith; it directly proselytizes and seeks to convert our members, into a radical non-Nicene Tritheist faith.  The Mormons are the true Monophysites; we Oriental Orthodox are not monophysites and never were; Mormons are the heirs of Eutyches, the leader of the Monophysites, who we have always anathematized, who made our Lord of a nature different from that of the Father and the Spirit, and in turn, the Eutychians then derived from this an actual Tritheism (I have heard John Philoponus, a 6th century Alexandrian theologian and philosopher, had leanings towards this school; I know we do not venerate him as a saint, and I believe he is a heretic).

If a Muslim kills us, for our Christian Orthodox faith, if we confess Jesus and die for Him, our salvation is assured.  The Muslims are trying to exterminate us in the Middle East, but they have tried before and failed; the Church is God-protected, and already in Iraq we are seeing the early dawn of a rebuilding of the Christian communities of Nineveh.

Noone said that Mormons or Muslims or Jews are bad. We just say our opinion about their beliefs. And I have Muslim friends and I love them so much and I guest a Jew at my room when I was student at University. I had a friend at high school who was a Jehovah's witness.
May the All-Merciful Lord our God, the Almighty rest your muslim friend's soul in peace and to enlight your mormon friends to convert to the true Church!

Thank you both.  Please pray for me, a sinner.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #120 on: June 27, 2017, 03:28:32 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.

Christendom achieved world dominance only after the Reformation and Enlightenment, both of which were massively-successful overthrows of Christianity. Then the worst violence came with the World Wars, when Christendom was largely led by materialist intellectuals. Not to mention just how many centuries had passed. So to seek to compare this with the violence of Islam or Buddhism, which came as part of their origins, may not be ingenuous.
Hmm... What kind of dominance do you mean that he Catholic Church had during the middle ages then? None? I don't know enough about buddhism to say that violence was part of its origins, but I sure can not find any violence in the teachings of Buddha himself. Now Islam is another story. That is a proclamation of war right from the start.

You think Southern Europe in the Middle Ages was a world power? and one of unparalleled violence? You do need to study history more.
A power in Europe then. It's influence on our minds today is huge. There are a number of examples of forced conversion throughout the history of Christianity: during the Roman Empire, in the Middle Ages, inquisitions in Spain and Goa, and campaigns by Russian rulers.

You're conflating the Middle Ages with the Renaissance.

By the way, I hate how SDAs insist the Dark Ages lasted from 538 (an arbitrarily selected date) until 1798, in order to prop up Ellen G. White's prophecies.

The SDAs are more dangerous than Mormons, because of late, the growth rate of Mormonism has slowed a bit, whereas Adventism is expanding; ir looks more like authentic Christianity, they pay lip service to the creed, but their church believes in evil doctrines that contradict the creed, the blasphemy that Jesus Christ is also St. Michael, et cetera.  Of late SDAs have been much more active targeting Orthodox than the Mormons.

And Billy Graham did us a huge disservice by endorsing them as Christians many uears ago; this is a bit of a nightmare because during the Soviet era, Billy Graham was given a blessing to preach in the USSR on several occasions by the Moscow Patriarch, who was desperate to get some form of catechesis or evangelism even if it meant using a heterodox celebrity pastor from America (the Russian Orthodox church does care about Billy Graham however; I saw a photo of Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev cisiting him on his 99th birthday, in which one could see pure love).

But because of that, amd other related errors, doors have been opened by which both SDAs and Mormons can try to claim some legitimacy which otherwise would be denied them.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 03:35:28 PM by Alpha60 »
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Offline Alkis

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #121 on: June 27, 2017, 03:29:29 PM »
Revelation is pretty clear if someone is familiar with Old Testament. Otherwise many can fall to many errors. It is the story of Jesus and of the world from creation till the age to come. The lake of fire the book says that is the second death. The hell. The hell that our Fathers say that is a spiritual state and not a created place with torments.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #122 on: June 27, 2017, 03:31:38 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.

Christendom achieved world dominance only after the Reformation and Enlightenment, both of which were massively-successful overthrows of Christianity. Then the worst violence came with the World Wars, when Christendom was largely led by materialist intellectuals. Not to mention just how many centuries had passed. So to seek to compare this with the violence of Islam or Buddhism, which came as part of their origins, may not be ingenuous.
Hmm... What kind of dominance do you mean that he Catholic Church had during the middle ages then? None? I don't know enough about buddhism to say that violence was part of its origins, but I sure can not find any violence in the teachings of Buddha himself. Now Islam is another story. That is a proclamation of war right from the start.

Pre-Reformation Roman Catholicism: Being at war with the Church is the same as being a traitor to the State.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #123 on: June 27, 2017, 03:31:49 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.

Christendom achieved world dominance only after the Reformation and Enlightenment, both of which were massively-successful overthrows of Christianity. Then the worst violence came with the World Wars, when Christendom was largely led by materialist intellectuals. Not to mention just how many centuries had passed. So to seek to compare this with the violence of Islam or Buddhism, which came as part of their origins, may not be ingenuous.
Hmm... What kind of dominance do you mean that he Catholic Church had during the middle ages then? None? I don't know enough about buddhism to say that violence was part of its origins, but I sure can not find any violence in the teachings of Buddha himself. Now Islam is another story. That is a proclamation of war right from the start.

You think Southern Europe in the Middle Ages was a world power? and one of unparalleled violence? You do need to study history more.
A power in Europe then. It's influence on our minds today is huge. There are a number of examples of forced conversion throughout the history of Christianity: during the Roman Empire, in the Middle Ages, inquisitions in Spain and Goa, and campaigns by Russian rulers.

You're comflating the Middle Ages with the Renaissance.
Sometimes the Renaissance is included to the late middle ages. Let us just say late middle ages and the Rennaissance.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #124 on: June 27, 2017, 03:32:10 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!

Pretty easy. Popular Victorian enemies of Christianity become Fathers among the Saints. The Canon is reduced to a handful of partial books. "Do as thou wilt, and it harm not Beebert's feelings," becomes the Creed.
Now mind you; I do not at any rate despise christianity as it is practiced by people like Francis of Assisi and Starets Silouan, as I have mentioned so many times. That to me is true christianity. But what institutional christianity(especially in the west) has done in the name of Christ, I despise more than most things. The oppression, the murders, the dogmatic fights, the burning of heretics, the threatenings of hell to poor common people done by a church of power, etc. It is not easy to discover the lovely truth behind all this wickedness done in the name of Christ and God.

Surely you at least occasionally glimpse how much of this is your imagination? For some reason, your ego is pleased to align itself with and even clumsily exaggerate, say, a Schopenhauer. You then give yourself over entirely to negative and histrionic emotion. In the meantime, if you with a cool head can truly say that the prospect of hell is nothing but a sadistic fraud, or, for that matter, that books of the Bible are nothing but sadistic frauds, then, yes, you have a lot of work ahead of you finding the "true Christianity." Please recall that Francis of Assissi or St. Silouan were not men who railed at God or denied the Bible.
Schopenhauer was a brilliant philosopher. I don't care whether he was a brilliant man in private life or not. Beethoven I believe was the greatest genius to have lived. But he lived an awful private life and was a very rude man. We are all sinners. Have you read 'The World as Will and Representation'? It is shockingly beautiful. I think most of the prospects of hell has been nothing but sadistic frauds yes. And I am not alone among "christians"(I don't like to call myself a christian, because I am not one, I rather would say that at best I am about to become one, or trying to be willing to become one) to think that is the case. Or do you think that all christian writers during the patristic era got their ideas about hell right? I would say that the sadistic inventions of many christians can be traced back to book like the book of revelation in the bible yes. And murders and crimes committed by christians can be traced back to the old testament. Now... Does that mean that what the sadists that interpreted the bible in that sadistic sense were right about the bible? No. But that is not what I have said.  Of course I recall that neither Francis nor Silouan ever railed at God or the bible. And I am far from the truth.

I'm more into Heidegger right now.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #125 on: June 27, 2017, 03:32:30 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.

Christendom achieved world dominance only after the Reformation and Enlightenment, both of which were massively-successful overthrows of Christianity. Then the worst violence came with the World Wars, when Christendom was largely led by materialist intellectuals. Not to mention just how many centuries had passed. So to seek to compare this with the violence of Islam or Buddhism, which came as part of their origins, may not be ingenuous.
Hmm... What kind of dominance do you mean that he Catholic Church had during the middle ages then? None? I don't know enough about buddhism to say that violence was part of its origins, but I sure can not find any violence in the teachings of Buddha himself. Now Islam is another story. That is a proclamation of war right from the start.

You think Southern Europe in the Middle Ages was a world power? and one of unparalleled violence? You do need to study history more.
A power in Europe then. It's influence on our minds today is huge. There are a number of examples of forced conversion throughout the history of Christianity: during the Roman Empire, in the Middle Ages, inquisitions in Spain and Goa, and campaigns by Russian rulers.

Europe was a power in medieval Europe? What exactly is it you're complaining about at this point? What you said is that Christianity is the most violent movement in history, along with Islam (whatever that bit means). I made some qualifications from history, so now you're saying -- Christianity hurt your feelings because you're European and it -- what -- had a hand in your education? -- set legal precedents that might affect you? At this point I don't even know what you're complaining about, but whatever it is, we've come a long way from "most violent religion in the history of the world."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #126 on: June 27, 2017, 03:35:14 PM »
Revelation is pretty clear if someone is familiar with Old Testament. Otherwise many can fall to many errors. It is the story of Jesus and of the world from creation till the age to come. The lake of fire the book says that is the second death. The hell. The hell that our Fathers say that is a spiritual state and not a created place with torments.
Some of the fathers say that about hell yes. And I prefer that interpretation. But it is not clear from reading the text. And it is not what all church fathers taught. Have you read about John Chrysostom's view for example? Now I take his view with a grain of salt but still. Most don't. Or Augustine's view? Also to be taken with a grain of salt but still. Many don't. Etc.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 03:35:33 PM by beebert »
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Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #127 on: June 27, 2017, 03:36:50 PM »
As for Christianity we must accept that christians became cruel and murders and not Christianity itself. It is a very important different. Christians have behaved violently in the past against the commandments of God while muslims followed the commandments of Quran and became violent. There are plenty of violent verses in that book.
Do you mean there is a difference between violent "christians" and violent "muslims"? The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

The book of Revelation is my favourite book and is a book that can change lives. Revelation doesn't command people to be violent while Quran does. The only verses that command people to commit violence in the Bible are those verses in Deuteronomy and 1 Samuel and refer to the war of the Israelites against the paganist nations of Canaan. And the same Bible explains why God commanded this.
I completely agree with you that the koran is a much more violent book. But it is still a fact that christianity has historically(or christians if you rather want to call it that. But I would say it is much more accurate to blame the institutional religion, becaue to me, a true christian is someone like Francis of Assisi or Starets Silouan)been one of the most violent religions in history, comitting among the worse crimes in human history in the name of God and Christ.

Christendom achieved world dominance only after the Reformation and Enlightenment, both of which were massively-successful overthrows of Christianity. Then the worst violence came with the World Wars, when Christendom was largely led by materialist intellectuals. Not to mention just how many centuries had passed. So to seek to compare this with the violence of Islam or Buddhism, which came as part of their origins, may not be ingenuous.
Hmm... What kind of dominance do you mean that he Catholic Church had during the middle ages then? None? I don't know enough about buddhism to say that violence was part of its origins, but I sure can not find any violence in the teachings of Buddha himself. Now Islam is another story. That is a proclamation of war right from the start.

You think Southern Europe in the Middle Ages was a world power? and one of unparalleled violence? You do need to study history more.
A power in Europe then. It's influence on our minds today is huge. There are a number of examples of forced conversion throughout the history of Christianity: during the Roman Empire, in the Middle Ages, inquisitions in Spain and Goa, and campaigns by Russian rulers.

Europe was a power in medieval Europe? What exactly is it you're complaining about at this point? What you said is that Christianity is the most violent movement in history, along with Islam (whatever that bit means). I made some qualifications from history, so now you're saying -- Christianity hurt your feelings because you're European and it -- what -- had a hand in your education? -- set legal precedents that might affect you? At this point I don't even know what you're complaining about, but whatever it is, we've come a long way from "most violent religion in the history of the world."
Oh my... You distort what I am talking about. Let us make it simple: Did christianity commit all the atrocities I mentioned before or not?
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Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #128 on: June 27, 2017, 03:40:43 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!

Pretty easy. Popular Victorian enemies of Christianity become Fathers among the Saints. The Canon is reduced to a handful of partial books. "Do as thou wilt, and it harm not Beebert's feelings," becomes the Creed.
Now mind you; I do not at any rate despise christianity as it is practiced by people like Francis of Assisi and Starets Silouan, as I have mentioned so many times. That to me is true christianity. But what institutional christianity(especially in the west) has done in the name of Christ, I despise more than most things. The oppression, the murders, the dogmatic fights, the burning of heretics, the threatenings of hell to poor common people done by a church of power, etc. It is not easy to discover the lovely truth behind all this wickedness done in the name of Christ and God.

Surely you at least occasionally glimpse how much of this is your imagination? For some reason, your ego is pleased to align itself with and even clumsily exaggerate, say, a Schopenhauer. You then give yourself over entirely to negative and histrionic emotion. In the meantime, if you with a cool head can truly say that the prospect of hell is nothing but a sadistic fraud, or, for that matter, that books of the Bible are nothing but sadistic frauds, then, yes, you have a lot of work ahead of you finding the "true Christianity." Please recall that Francis of Assissi or St. Silouan were not men who railed at God or denied the Bible.
Schopenhauer was a brilliant philosopher. I don't care whether he was a brilliant man in private life or not. Beethoven I believe was the greatest genius to have lived. But he lived an awful private life and was a very rude man. We are all sinners. Have you read 'The World as Will and Representation'? It is shockingly beautiful. I think most of the prospects of hell has been nothing but sadistic frauds yes. And I am not alone among "christians"(I don't like to call myself a christian, because I am not one, I rather would say that at best I am about to become one, or trying to be willing to become one) to think that is the case. Or do you think that all christian writers during the patristic era got their ideas about hell right? I would say that the sadistic inventions of many christians can be traced back to book like the book of revelation in the bible yes. And murders and crimes committed by christians can be traced back to the old testament. Now... Does that mean that what the sadists that interpreted the bible in that sadistic sense were right about the bible? No. But that is not what I have said.  Of course I recall that neither Francis nor Silouan ever railed at God or the bible. And I am far from the truth.

I'm more into Heidegger right now.
Have never read Heidegger. But don't know what that has to do with what i said haha... If existential philosophy: Nietzsche, Berdyaev and Kierkegaard(and Dostoevsky if one would like to count him in)will do it for me thus far. I like Camus too. I have heard a lot of positive things about Heidegger, but also bad things. Care to enlighten me?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Alkis

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #129 on: June 27, 2017, 03:43:21 PM »
Revelation is pretty clear if someone is familiar with Old Testament. Otherwise many can fall to many errors. It is the story of Jesus and of the world from creation till the age to come. The lake of fire the book says that is the second death. The hell. The hell that our Fathers say that is a spiritual state and not a created place with torments.
Some of the fathers say that about hell yes. And I prefer that interpretation. But it is not clear from reading the text. And it is not what all church fathers taught. Have you read about John Chrysostom's view for example? Now I take his view with a grain of salt but still. Most don't. Or Augustine's view? Also to be taken with a grain of salt but still. Many don't. Etc.

Yes some took in literally. But if we read the Scriptures in many passages (almost the whole Bible) uses imagery, symbols, icons, etc... So it must be understood metaphorically. It is a prophetic book, an apocalyptic literature. Full of symbols, allegories and imagery and languange from Old Testament and ancient Israel's life as for example the 24 elders. During tamid offering at the Temple, 24 representators of Israel might be there to see if the offering was offered in the name of all Israel by the priests. Every week the representators changed with draw because Israelites had their jobs and they couldn't be all twice a day to attend the liturgy.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 03:44:32 PM by Alkis »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #130 on: June 27, 2017, 03:47:55 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!

Pretty easy. Popular Victorian enemies of Christianity become Fathers among the Saints. The Canon is reduced to a handful of partial books. "Do as thou wilt, and it harm not Beebert's feelings," becomes the Creed.
Now mind you; I do not at any rate despise christianity as it is practiced by people like Francis of Assisi and Starets Silouan, as I have mentioned so many times. That to me is true christianity. But what institutional christianity(especially in the west) has done in the name of Christ, I despise more than most things. The oppression, the murders, the dogmatic fights, the burning of heretics, the threatenings of hell to poor common people done by a church of power, etc. It is not easy to discover the lovely truth behind all this wickedness done in the name of Christ and God.

Surely you at least occasionally glimpse how much of this is your imagination? For some reason, your ego is pleased to align itself with and even clumsily exaggerate, say, a Schopenhauer. You then give yourself over entirely to negative and histrionic emotion. In the meantime, if you with a cool head can truly say that the prospect of hell is nothing but a sadistic fraud, or, for that matter, that books of the Bible are nothing but sadistic frauds, then, yes, you have a lot of work ahead of you finding the "true Christianity." Please recall that Francis of Assissi or St. Silouan were not men who railed at God or denied the Bible.
Schopenhauer was a brilliant philosopher. I don't care whether he was a brilliant man in private life or not. Beethoven I believe was the greatest genius to have lived. But he lived an awful private life and was a very rude man. We are all sinners. Have you read 'The World as Will and Representation'? It is shockingly beautiful. I think most of the prospects of hell has been nothing but sadistic frauds yes. And I am not alone among "christians"(I don't like to call myself a christian, because I am not one, I rather would say that at best I am about to become one, or trying to be willing to become one) to think that is the case. Or do you think that all christian writers during the patristic era got their ideas about hell right? I would say that the sadistic inventions of many christians can be traced back to book like the book of revelation in the bible yes. And murders and crimes committed by christians can be traced back to the old testament. Now... Does that mean that what the sadists that interpreted the bible in that sadistic sense were right about the bible? No. But that is not what I have said.  Of course I recall that neither Francis nor Silouan ever railed at God or the bible. And I am far from the truth.

I'm more into Heidegger right now.
Have never read Heidegger. But don't know what that has to do with what i said haha... If existential philosophy: Nietzsche, Berdyaev and Kierkegaard(and Dostoevsky if one would like to count him in)will do it for me thus far. I like Camus too. I have heard a lot of positive things about Heidegger, but also bad things. Care to enlighten me?

He's a silly man. His claim to fame is (besides a patented impenetrable writing-style, rather like a very boring James Joyce) supposedly negating the essense/existence distinction by -- get this -- claiming time is primeval to either.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #131 on: June 27, 2017, 03:49:47 PM »
Revelation is pretty clear if someone is familiar with Old Testament. Otherwise many can fall to many errors. It is the story of Jesus and of the world from creation till the age to come. The lake of fire the book says that is the second death. The hell. The hell that our Fathers say that is a spiritual state and not a created place with torments.
Some of the fathers say that about hell yes. And I prefer that interpretation. But it is not clear from reading the text. And it is not what all church fathers taught. Have you read about John Chrysostom's view for example? Now I take his view with a grain of salt but still. Most don't. Or Augustine's view? Also to be taken with a grain of salt but still. Many don't. Etc.

Yes some took in literally. But if we read the Scriptures in many passages (almost the whole Bible) uses imagery, symbols, icons, etc... So it must be understood metaphorically. It is a prophetic book, an apocalyptic literature. Full of symbols, allegories and imagery and languange from Old Testament and ancient Israel's life as for example the 24 elders. During tamid offering at the Temple, 24 representators of Israel might be there to see if the offering was offered in the name of all Israel by the priests. Every week the representators changed with draw because Israelites had their jobs and they couldn't be all twice a day to attend the liturgy.
Which is why I like Origen.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #132 on: June 27, 2017, 03:50:33 PM »
4)  The point Antonious Nikolas made about the Mormons being a more corrupting influence is a good point, and I almost agreed with it.  But I think I may have a refutation to that: things like Iconoclasm was part of an "Islamization" of Christianity.  Islam has had pretty big effects on the Orthodox world.  I heard (?) that they have effected the way our bishops dress and function and that some of these things are relics from us trying to deal with being in an Islamic culture.   I think maybe the claim that right now in the west, Mormonism is going to be more corrupting and subversive.

I'll try and fact check my claim about Bishop garb if someone wants me to

Apples and oranges.  I never claimed that Mormonism could corrupt or influence Orthodox Christianity or even the smack-cheeked mainstream Evangelicalism it outwardly resembles.  What I claimed was that many mainstream American Christians regard Mormonism and related cults as other Christian sects and so are more easily seduced by them than they would be by a religion as manifestly foreign (to them) as Islam.

As to Islam's role in the Iconoclast movement and other influences it may or may not have had on Orthodox Christianity, I see that as a peripheral issue, and I'll leave it to others to debate, but please do elaborate/fact check on the bishop's garb point.

I don't know what mormon believe. About islam it is difficult for me to hate, Some of my childhood friend are muslim and my first love was a muslim women. There is not one islam, i appreciate Sufism and most of my read now are sufism poetry, i like the popular culture in islam

Orthodox Sunni Islam, the violent and dangerous one, is 90% of Muslims. Many jihadis have been Sufis.

I feel that the more tolerant and non-violent religions are often the more "dangerous" ones, with regard to ideology, and it requires more diligent and competent minds.  It's easy to reject a religion that is outright physically dangerous.  You don't need to have a deeply rooted and strong faith for that, even if many succumbed to that religion out of fear, they know deep down they really didn't accept the religion out of personal conviction, but for earthy reasons.

+1
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #133 on: June 27, 2017, 03:51:19 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!

Pretty easy. Popular Victorian enemies of Christianity become Fathers among the Saints. The Canon is reduced to a handful of partial books. "Do as thou wilt, and it harm not Beebert's feelings," becomes the Creed.
Now mind you; I do not at any rate despise christianity as it is practiced by people like Francis of Assisi and Starets Silouan, as I have mentioned so many times. That to me is true christianity. But what institutional christianity(especially in the west) has done in the name of Christ, I despise more than most things. The oppression, the murders, the dogmatic fights, the burning of heretics, the threatenings of hell to poor common people done by a church of power, etc. It is not easy to discover the lovely truth behind all this wickedness done in the name of Christ and God.

Surely you at least occasionally glimpse how much of this is your imagination? For some reason, your ego is pleased to align itself with and even clumsily exaggerate, say, a Schopenhauer. You then give yourself over entirely to negative and histrionic emotion. In the meantime, if you with a cool head can truly say that the prospect of hell is nothing but a sadistic fraud, or, for that matter, that books of the Bible are nothing but sadistic frauds, then, yes, you have a lot of work ahead of you finding the "true Christianity." Please recall that Francis of Assissi or St. Silouan were not men who railed at God or denied the Bible.
Schopenhauer was a brilliant philosopher. I don't care whether he was a brilliant man in private life or not. Beethoven I believe was the greatest genius to have lived. But he lived an awful private life and was a very rude man. We are all sinners. Have you read 'The World as Will and Representation'? It is shockingly beautiful. I think most of the prospects of hell has been nothing but sadistic frauds yes. And I am not alone among "christians"(I don't like to call myself a christian, because I am not one, I rather would say that at best I am about to become one, or trying to be willing to become one) to think that is the case. Or do you think that all christian writers during the patristic era got their ideas about hell right? I would say that the sadistic inventions of many christians can be traced back to book like the book of revelation in the bible yes. And murders and crimes committed by christians can be traced back to the old testament. Now... Does that mean that what the sadists that interpreted the bible in that sadistic sense were right about the bible? No. But that is not what I have said.  Of course I recall that neither Francis nor Silouan ever railed at God or the bible. And I am far from the truth.

I'm more into Heidegger right now.
Have never read Heidegger. But don't know what that has to do with what i said haha... If existential philosophy: Nietzsche, Berdyaev and Kierkegaard(and Dostoevsky if one would like to count him in)will do it for me thus far. I like Camus too. I have heard a lot of positive things about Heidegger, but also bad things. Care to enlighten me?

He's a silly man. His claim to fame is (besides a patented impenetrable writing-style, rather like a very boring James Joyce) supposedly negating the essense/existence distinction by -- get this -- claiming time is primeval to either.
Then perhaps I shouldn't read him. But didn't he have quite a close relationship, or at least some sort of relationship, with the catholic church?
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #134 on: June 27, 2017, 03:52:11 PM »
It would have been better if [Calvin] never had been born surely.

+infinity
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #135 on: June 27, 2017, 03:53:17 PM »
Revelation is pretty clear if someone is familiar with Old Testament. Otherwise many can fall to many errors. It is the story of Jesus and of the world from creation till the age to come. The lake of fire the book says that is the second death. The hell. The hell that our Fathers say that is a spiritual state and not a created place with torments.
Some of the fathers say that about hell yes. And I prefer that interpretation. But it is not clear from reading the text. And it is not what all church fathers taught. Have you read about John Chrysostom's view for example? Now I take his view with a grain of salt but still. Most don't. Or Augustine's view? Also to be taken with a grain of salt but still. Many don't. Etc.

Yes some took in literally. But if we read the Scriptures in many passages (almost the whole Bible) uses imagery, symbols, icons, etc... So it must be understood metaphorically. It is a prophetic book, an apocalyptic literature. Full of symbols, allegories and imagery and languange from Old Testament and ancient Israel's life as for example the 24 elders. During tamid offering at the Temple, 24 representators of Israel might be there to see if the offering was offered in the name of all Israel by the priests. Every week the representators changed with draw because Israelites had their jobs and they couldn't be all twice a day to attend the liturgy.
Which is why I like Origen.

I love him and admire him too. And not only Origen. And other Fathers interpreted Scriptures allegorically. I venerate all of our saints and Fathers. They tried the best for the Church. They taught us both literally and allegorically the Scriptures and we have them as a guide to our journey to deification.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #136 on: June 27, 2017, 04:02:53 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!

Pretty easy. Popular Victorian enemies of Christianity become Fathers among the Saints. The Canon is reduced to a handful of partial books. "Do as thou wilt, and it harm not Beebert's feelings," becomes the Creed.
Now mind you; I do not at any rate despise christianity as it is practiced by people like Francis of Assisi and Starets Silouan, as I have mentioned so many times. That to me is true christianity. But what institutional christianity(especially in the west) has done in the name of Christ, I despise more than most things. The oppression, the murders, the dogmatic fights, the burning of heretics, the threatenings of hell to poor common people done by a church of power, etc. It is not easy to discover the lovely truth behind all this wickedness done in the name of Christ and God.

Surely you at least occasionally glimpse how much of this is your imagination? For some reason, your ego is pleased to align itself with and even clumsily exaggerate, say, a Schopenhauer. You then give yourself over entirely to negative and histrionic emotion. In the meantime, if you with a cool head can truly say that the prospect of hell is nothing but a sadistic fraud, or, for that matter, that books of the Bible are nothing but sadistic frauds, then, yes, you have a lot of work ahead of you finding the "true Christianity." Please recall that Francis of Assissi or St. Silouan were not men who railed at God or denied the Bible.
Schopenhauer was a brilliant philosopher. I don't care whether he was a brilliant man in private life or not. Beethoven I believe was the greatest genius to have lived. But he lived an awful private life and was a very rude man. We are all sinners. Have you read 'The World as Will and Representation'? It is shockingly beautiful. I think most of the prospects of hell has been nothing but sadistic frauds yes. And I am not alone among "christians"(I don't like to call myself a christian, because I am not one, I rather would say that at best I am about to become one, or trying to be willing to become one) to think that is the case. Or do you think that all christian writers during the patristic era got their ideas about hell right? I would say that the sadistic inventions of many christians can be traced back to book like the book of revelation in the bible yes. And murders and crimes committed by christians can be traced back to the old testament. Now... Does that mean that what the sadists that interpreted the bible in that sadistic sense were right about the bible? No. But that is not what I have said.  Of course I recall that neither Francis nor Silouan ever railed at God or the bible. And I am far from the truth.

I can't believe you actually wrote all this out plain as day. Schopenhauer was a wretched little man in every way, intellectually, personally, even physically. Unlike Russell's notorious claim, he was an atheist unable even to enjoy his breakfast. Yet, yes, he made himself a grandiosely bitter enemy of God and Christ, humankind, and for some reason women. Anyone who can read him with a straight face and unqueasy stomach has lost all claim to my respect, even if that reader had the excuse of being, oh, I don't know, a Deutschephile thirteen-year-old. Since you in fact have read him at some length, I can't grant you the excuse of ignorance that was just drawn to some allusion about him (I've known teenagers for whom this was the case). Therefore, that you not only support the man's blasphemous tirades but would run him up the flagpole of your own personal religion and parade about openly beneath it is -- well. I assume you do it to be shocking.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 04:05:27 PM by Porter ODoran »
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #137 on: June 27, 2017, 04:26:33 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)
Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!

Pretty easy. Popular Victorian enemies of Christianity become Fathers among the Saints. The Canon is reduced to a handful of partial books. "Do as thou wilt, and it harm not Beebert's feelings," becomes the Creed.
Now mind you; I do not at any rate despise christianity as it is practiced by people like Francis of Assisi and Starets Silouan, as I have mentioned so many times. That to me is true christianity. But what institutional christianity(especially in the west) has done in the name of Christ, I despise more than most things. The oppression, the murders, the dogmatic fights, the burning of heretics, the threatenings of hell to poor common people done by a church of power, etc. It is not easy to discover the lovely truth behind all this wickedness done in the name of Christ and God.

Surely you at least occasionally glimpse how much of this is your imagination? For some reason, your ego is pleased to align itself with and even clumsily exaggerate, say, a Schopenhauer. You then give yourself over entirely to negative and histrionic emotion. In the meantime, if you with a cool head can truly say that the prospect of hell is nothing but a sadistic fraud, or, for that matter, that books of the Bible are nothing but sadistic frauds, then, yes, you have a lot of work ahead of you finding the "true Christianity." Please recall that Francis of Assissi or St. Silouan were not men who railed at God or denied the Bible.
Schopenhauer was a brilliant philosopher. I don't care whether he was a brilliant man in private life or not. Beethoven I believe was the greatest genius to have lived. But he lived an awful private life and was a very rude man. We are all sinners. Have you read 'The World as Will and Representation'? It is shockingly beautiful. I think most of the prospects of hell has been nothing but sadistic frauds yes. And I am not alone among "christians"(I don't like to call myself a christian, because I am not one, I rather would say that at best I am about to become one, or trying to be willing to become one) to think that is the case. Or do you think that all christian writers during the patristic era got their ideas about hell right? I would say that the sadistic inventions of many christians can be traced back to book like the book of revelation in the bible yes. And murders and crimes committed by christians can be traced back to the old testament. Now... Does that mean that what the sadists that interpreted the bible in that sadistic sense were right about the bible? No. But that is not what I have said.  Of course I recall that neither Francis nor Silouan ever railed at God or the bible. And I am far from the truth.

I can't believe you actually wrote all this out plain as day. Schopenhauer was a wretched little man in every way, intellectually, personally, even physically. Unlike Russell's notorious claim, he was an atheist unable even to enjoy his breakfast. Yet, yes, he made himself a grandiosely bitter enemy of God and Christ, humankind, and for some reason women. Anyone who can read him with a straight face and unqueasy stomach has lost all claim to my respect, even if that reader had the excuse of being, oh, I don't know, a Deutschephile thirteen-year-old. Since you in fact have read him at some length, I can't grant you the excuse of ignorance that was just drawn to some allusion about him (I've known teenagers for whom this was the case). Therefore, that you not only support the man's blasphemous tirades but would run him up the flagpole of your own personal religion and parade about openly beneath it is -- well. I assume you do it to be shocking.
He admired certain christian traditions and praised them. Didn't you by the way respect Tolstoy? Perhaps it is time for you to lose your respect for him. I guess there are things you don't get.

 "Do you know what this summer has meant for me? Constant raptures over Schopenhauer and a whole series of spiritual delights which I've never experienced before. ... no student has ever studied so much on his course, and learned so much, as I have this summer. Schopenhauer is one of the greatest geniuses among men..."

Who said that you think? Only an idiot would read Schopenhauer and then simply pronounce him as being some stupid and wretched loser only to be appreciated by 13-year olds or whatever...
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 04:35:34 PM by beebert »
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #138 on: June 27, 2017, 04:39:06 PM »
Do you know what else the same man said?

"Purely intellectual philosophy [which renounces the poetic and religious interpretation of things] is an ugly Western product; and neither the Greeks – Plato – nor Schopenhauer, nor the Russian thinkers understood philosophy in this way"

Why do you think Schopenhauer is mentioned there?
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #139 on: June 27, 2017, 04:47:55 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)

Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!

Pretty easy. Popular Victorian enemies of Christianity become Fathers among the Saints. The Canon is reduced to a handful of partial books. "Do as thou wilt, and it harm not Beebert's feelings," becomes the Creed.
Now mind you; I do not at any rate despise christianity as it is practiced by people like Francis of Assisi and Starets Silouan, as I have mentioned so many times. That to me is true christianity. But what institutional christianity(especially in the west) has done in the name of Christ, I despise more than most things. The oppression, the murders, the dogmatic fights, the burning of heretics, the threatenings of hell to poor common people done by a church of power, etc. It is not easy to discover the lovely truth behind all this wickedness done in the name of Christ and God.

Surely you at least occasionally glimpse how much of this is your imagination? For some reason, your ego is pleased to align itself with and even clumsily exaggerate, say, a Schopenhauer. You then give yourself over entirely to negative and histrionic emotion. In the meantime, if you with a cool head can truly say that the prospect of hell is nothing but a sadistic fraud, or, for that matter, that books of the Bible are nothing but sadistic frauds, then, yes, you have a lot of work ahead of you finding the "true Christianity." Please recall that Francis of Assissi or St. Silouan were not men who railed at God or denied the Bible.
Schopenhauer was a brilliant philosopher. I don't care whether he was a brilliant man in private life or not. Beethoven I believe was the greatest genius to have lived. But he lived an awful private life and was a very rude man. We are all sinners. Have you read 'The World as Will and Representation'? It is shockingly beautiful. I think most of the prospects of hell has been nothing but sadistic frauds yes. And I am not alone among "christians"(I don't like to call myself a christian, because I am not one, I rather would say that at best I am about to become one, or trying to be willing to become one) to think that is the case. Or do you think that all christian writers during the patristic era got their ideas about hell right? I would say that the sadistic inventions of many christians can be traced back to book like the book of revelation in the bible yes. And murders and crimes committed by christians can be traced back to the old testament. Now... Does that mean that what the sadists that interpreted the bible in that sadistic sense were right about the bible? No. But that is not what I have said.  Of course I recall that neither Francis nor Silouan ever railed at God or the bible. And I am far from the truth.

I'm more into Heidegger right now.
Have never read Heidegger. But don't know what that has to do with what i said haha... If existential philosophy: Nietzsche, Berdyaev and Kierkegaard(and Dostoevsky if one would like to count him in)will do it for me thus far. I like Camus too. I have heard a lot of positive things about Heidegger, but also bad things. Care to enlighten me?

He kowtowed to the Nazis, if that's what you're referring to.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #140 on: June 27, 2017, 06:00:37 PM »
Do you know what else the same man said?

"Purely intellectual philosophy [which renounces the poetic and religious interpretation of things] is an ugly Western product; and neither the Greeks – Plato – nor Schopenhauer, nor the Russian thinkers understood philosophy in this way"

Why do you think Schopenhauer is mentioned there?

Schopenhauer was briefly a cultural touchstone representing post-Romantic decadence as opposed to the positivists. However, he was soon eclipsed by Nietzsche, and the opposition was recast as continentals vs. analyticals.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #141 on: June 27, 2017, 06:04:48 PM »
Do you know what else the same man said?

"Purely intellectual philosophy [which renounces the poetic and religious interpretation of things] is an ugly Western product; and neither the Greeks – Plato – nor Schopenhauer, nor the Russian thinkers understood philosophy in this way"

Why do you think Schopenhauer is mentioned there?

Schopenhauer was briefly a cultural touchstone representing post-Romantic decadence as opposed to the positivists. However, he was soon eclipsed by Nietzsche, and the opposition was recast as continentals vs. analyticals.
Schopenhauer was mentioned because the one who said it understood that he was a great philosopher. Now, I don't know if you saw my comment above this one but:


 "Do you know what this summer has meant for me? Constant raptures over Schopenhauer and a whole series of spiritual delights which I've never experienced before. ... no student has ever studied so much on his course, and learned so much, as I have this summer. Schopenhauer is one of the greatest geniuses among men..."

Who said that you think? Whoever said it must according to your own words lose your respect.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #142 on: June 27, 2017, 06:27:42 PM »
Do you know what else the same man said?

"Purely intellectual philosophy [which renounces the poetic and religious interpretation of things] is an ugly Western product; and neither the Greeks – Plato – nor Schopenhauer, nor the Russian thinkers understood philosophy in this way"

Why do you think Schopenhauer is mentioned there?

Schopenhauer was briefly a cultural touchstone representing post-Romantic decadence as opposed to the positivists. However, he was soon eclipsed by Nietzsche, and the opposition was recast as continentals vs. analyticals.
Schopenhauer was mentioned because the one who said it understood that he was a great philosopher. Now, I don't know if you saw my comment above this one but:


 "Do you know what this summer has meant for me? Constant raptures over Schopenhauer and a whole series of spiritual delights which I've never experienced before. ... no student has ever studied so much on his course, and learned so much, as I have this summer. Schopenhauer is one of the greatest geniuses among men..."

Who said that you think? Whoever said it must according to your own words lose your respect.

He re-earned my respect when his maturer mind developed its own, basically Christian, philosophy at length. We've had this conversation in another thread. Now, what you need to do rather than name-dropping is explain how Schopenhauer figures in your mind as a spiritual father, how his teaching that the only ultimate reality is no longer to be understood as God but as one's own will and that the ultimate truth is not revelation but commitment to one's own genius to the point of suicide is a basis for Christian doctrine and praxis. Take your time.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #143 on: June 27, 2017, 06:55:20 PM »
Do you know what else the same man said?

"Purely intellectual philosophy [which renounces the poetic and religious interpretation of things] is an ugly Western product; and neither the Greeks – Plato – nor Schopenhauer, nor the Russian thinkers understood philosophy in this way"

Why do you think Schopenhauer is mentioned there?

Schopenhauer was briefly a cultural touchstone representing post-Romantic decadence as opposed to the positivists. However, he was soon eclipsed by Nietzsche, and the opposition was recast as continentals vs. analyticals.
Schopenhauer was mentioned because the one who said it understood that he was a great philosopher. Now, I don't know if you saw my comment above this one but:


 "Do you know what this summer has meant for me? Constant raptures over Schopenhauer and a whole series of spiritual delights which I've never experienced before. ... no student has ever studied so much on his course, and learned so much, as I have this summer. Schopenhauer is one of the greatest geniuses among men..."

Who said that you think? Whoever said it must according to your own words lose your respect.

He re-earned my respect when his maturer mind developed its own, basically Christian, philosophy at length. We've had this conversation in another thread. Now, what you need to do rather than name-dropping is explain how Schopenhauer figures in your mind as a spiritual father, how his teaching that the only ultimate reality is no longer to be understood as God but as one's own will and that the ultimate truth is not revelation but commitment to one's own genius to the point of suicide is a basis for Christian doctrine and praxis. Take your time.
I reacted against you talking about Schopenhauer as if he was some sort of an idiot or something. You may not like his ideas and conclusions; but to say he was a bad philosopher and a wretched thinker is nothing but stupid. Sorry.

I don't agree with all he said. I read his philosophy in foremost with an aesthetic intention. And I consider it to be art in a way, because of his brilliant writing-style. He has deep insights about the wonders of compassion, and to say that he is entirely wrong about the blindness of the will, is... well... blind. I don't consider him a spiritual father and have never said he was one. Nor do I consider Claude Debussy a spiritual father, yet I enjoy his music. By the way; "but commitment to one's own genius to the point of suicide ". What does that even mean? Have you read Schopenhauer? He thought one should commit one-self to the denial of the will, and he believed that is what all the greatest religious/spiritual geniuses(if I may call them that, I suspect you will attack me for mentioning Buddha) in history had done: Buddha, Francis of Assisi, the Desert Fathers, to name a few. Tolstoy's reading of the sermon on the mount he admitted was very inspired by the views Schopenhauer had given him earlier. He doesn't by the way promote suicide, I just wanted to mention that too. Now though. This idea of denial of the will, which he was correct in saying that many religious people in history were actually trying to achieve(even christians, who in salvation often sought nothingness at many times in history, which though of course is a distorted view of salvation) rather than to know God, is NOT what made me appreciate him the most. Rather, it is his exceptionally bright and insightful and beautiful view of art, and especially music. Few have written such great things about art, and for that, he deserves my appreciation. Plus, he was a brilliant stylist. His writing in pure aesthetic terms far surpasses most philosophers in history and he can by it alone be counted among the great German writers(no, I am not calling him a novelist. If anything, blame my english, which cannot come up with a better word than writer).
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:05:48 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #144 on: June 27, 2017, 07:23:55 PM »
Do you know what else the same man said?

"Purely intellectual philosophy [which renounces the poetic and religious interpretation of things] is an ugly Western product; and neither the Greeks – Plato – nor Schopenhauer, nor the Russian thinkers understood philosophy in this way"

Why do you think Schopenhauer is mentioned there?

Schopenhauer was briefly a cultural touchstone representing post-Romantic decadence as opposed to the positivists. However, he was soon eclipsed by Nietzsche, and the opposition was recast as continentals vs. analyticals.
Schopenhauer was mentioned because the one who said it understood that he was a great philosopher. Now, I don't know if you saw my comment above this one but:


 "Do you know what this summer has meant for me? Constant raptures over Schopenhauer and a whole series of spiritual delights which I've never experienced before. ... no student has ever studied so much on his course, and learned so much, as I have this summer. Schopenhauer is one of the greatest geniuses among men..."

Who said that you think? Whoever said it must according to your own words lose your respect.

He re-earned my respect when his maturer mind developed its own, basically Christian, philosophy at length. We've had this conversation in another thread. Now, what you need to do rather than name-dropping is explain how Schopenhauer figures in your mind as a spiritual father, how his teaching that the only ultimate reality is no longer to be understood as God but as one's own will and that the ultimate truth is not revelation but commitment to one's own genius to the point of suicide is a basis for Christian doctrine and praxis. Take your time.
I reacted against you talking about Schopenhauer as if he was some sort of an idiot or something. You may not like his ideas and conclusions; but to say he was a bad philosopher and a wretched thinker is nothing but stupid. Sorry.

I don't agree with all he said. I read his philosophy in foremost with an aesthetic intention. And I consider it to be art in a way, because of his brilliant writing-style. He has deep insights about the wonders of compassion, and to say that he is entirely wrong about the blindness of the will, is... well... blind. I don't consider him a spiritual father and have never said he was one. Nor do I consider Claude Debussy a spiritual father, yet I enjoy his music. By the way; "but commitment to one's own genius to the point of suicide ". What does that even mean? Have you read Schopenhauer? He thought one should commit one-self to the denial of the will, and he believed that is what all the greatest religious/spiritual geniuses(if I may call them that, I suspect you will attack me for mentioning Buddha) in history had done: Buddha, Francis of Assisi, the Desert Fathers, to name a few. Tolstoy's reading of the sermon on the mount he admitted was very inspired by the views Schopenhauer had given him earlier. He doesn't by the way promote suicide, I just wanted to mention that too. Now though. This idea of denial of the will, which he was correct in saying that many religious people in history were actually trying to achieve(even christians, who in salvation often sought nothingness at many times in history, which though of course is a distorted view of salvation) rather than to know God, is NOT what made me appreciate him the most. Rather, it is his exceptionally bright and insightful and beautiful view of art, and especially music. Few have written such great things about art, and for that, he deserves my appreciation. Plus, he was a brilliant stylist. His writing in pure aesthetic terms far surpasses most philosophers in history and he can by it alone be counted among the great German writers(no, I am not calling him a novelist. If anything, blame my english, which cannot come up with a better word than writer).

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, but when I state someone like Schopenhauer or Neitzsche or Leopaldo were showy blasphemers and have no place in the Christian echelon that's just a fact, and your feelings are only making you ridiculous in regard to that fact.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #145 on: June 27, 2017, 07:35:59 PM »
Do you know what else the same man said?

"Purely intellectual philosophy [which renounces the poetic and religious interpretation of things] is an ugly Western product; and neither the Greeks – Plato – nor Schopenhauer, nor the Russian thinkers understood philosophy in this way"

Why do you think Schopenhauer is mentioned there?

Schopenhauer was briefly a cultural touchstone representing post-Romantic decadence as opposed to the positivists. However, he was soon eclipsed by Nietzsche, and the opposition was recast as continentals vs. analyticals.
Schopenhauer was mentioned because the one who said it understood that he was a great philosopher. Now, I don't know if you saw my comment above this one but:


 "Do you know what this summer has meant for me? Constant raptures over Schopenhauer and a whole series of spiritual delights which I've never experienced before. ... no student has ever studied so much on his course, and learned so much, as I have this summer. Schopenhauer is one of the greatest geniuses among men..."

Who said that you think? Whoever said it must according to your own words lose your respect.

He re-earned my respect when his maturer mind developed its own, basically Christian, philosophy at length. We've had this conversation in another thread. Now, what you need to do rather than name-dropping is explain how Schopenhauer figures in your mind as a spiritual father, how his teaching that the only ultimate reality is no longer to be understood as God but as one's own will and that the ultimate truth is not revelation but commitment to one's own genius to the point of suicide is a basis for Christian doctrine and praxis. Take your time.
I reacted against you talking about Schopenhauer as if he was some sort of an idiot or something. You may not like his ideas and conclusions; but to say he was a bad philosopher and a wretched thinker is nothing but stupid. Sorry.

I don't agree with all he said. I read his philosophy in foremost with an aesthetic intention. And I consider it to be art in a way, because of his brilliant writing-style. He has deep insights about the wonders of compassion, and to say that he is entirely wrong about the blindness of the will, is... well... blind. I don't consider him a spiritual father and have never said he was one. Nor do I consider Claude Debussy a spiritual father, yet I enjoy his music. By the way; "but commitment to one's own genius to the point of suicide ". What does that even mean? Have you read Schopenhauer? He thought one should commit one-self to the denial of the will, and he believed that is what all the greatest religious/spiritual geniuses(if I may call them that, I suspect you will attack me for mentioning Buddha) in history had done: Buddha, Francis of Assisi, the Desert Fathers, to name a few. Tolstoy's reading of the sermon on the mount he admitted was very inspired by the views Schopenhauer had given him earlier. He doesn't by the way promote suicide, I just wanted to mention that too. Now though. This idea of denial of the will, which he was correct in saying that many religious people in history were actually trying to achieve(even christians, who in salvation often sought nothingness at many times in history, which though of course is a distorted view of salvation) rather than to know God, is NOT what made me appreciate him the most. Rather, it is his exceptionally bright and insightful and beautiful view of art, and especially music. Few have written such great things about art, and for that, he deserves my appreciation. Plus, he was a brilliant stylist. His writing in pure aesthetic terms far surpasses most philosophers in history and he can by it alone be counted among the great German writers(no, I am not calling him a novelist. If anything, blame my english, which cannot come up with a better word than writer).

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, but when I state someone like Schopenhauer or Neitzsche or Leopaldo were showy blasphemers and have no place in the Christian echelon that's just a fact, and your feelings are only making you ridiculous in regard to that fact.
Did I say they had a place in the "christian echelon"? Does that mean that one must simply dismiss every single  word they uttered? They were, obviously, three great philosophers/artists/writers. By the way, his name is Leopardi. And he was the one who opened my eyes to christianity positively along with Dostoevsky. Why? Because of two things: 1. He praised Jesus as the one who more than anyone had managed to expose hypocrites and oppressors. 2. He showed, in a very beautiful and striking way, what a world without God looks like. Nothing but despair in the end. But a man who can write so strikingly beautiful about that, surely believes in something. Surely is in some contact with God. Being a great artist and poet almost requires it I believe So... A great artist, even if not christian, can help one. Now about Nietzsche... There I have some bold claims. I think he is very important for christianity, especially in the west. But I don't think I shall bring that up here. And if one reads Thus Spoke Zarathustra, or Gay Science, one can see that the man who wrote these books was not simply an atheist in the word now used. Thus Spoke Zarathustra is written in a religious spirit that reminds me of the Psalms of David. This you will probably attack me for
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:40:04 PM by beebert »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #146 on: June 27, 2017, 07:38:57 PM »
He doesn't by the way promote suicide, I just wanted to mention that too.

He taught that, as the will of a man is the only reality, when circumstances challenge the will too much then suicide is the "emphatic assertion of this will." He recurred to this subject in his books, but also wrote a special essay on it. Let's take a look at the essay in part:

"The inmost kernel of Christianity is the truth that suffering -- the Cross -- is the real end and object of life. Hence Christianity condemns suicide as thwarting this end." Well that's slander, and he tries to be clever about it.

"The extraordinary energy and zeal with which the clergy of monotheistic religions attack suicide is not supported either by any passages in the Bible or by any considerations of weight; so that it looks as though they must have some secret reason for their contention." Again the slander, and again the thinking himself very clever by wording things in a concise but sophistical way.

"May it not be this -- that the voluntary surrender of life is a bad compliment for him who said that 'all things were very good'?" More of the same. Worded to make the simpler reader think something very clever has happened. However, the slander has now become directly blasphemous.

"If this is so [::)], it offers another instance of the crass optimism of these religions -- denouncing suicide to escape being denounced by it." So now he has moved on to begging his questions, in his usual, faux philosopher, fashion, but he has also interjected a suspicion, an accusation of motive, an ad hominem. Of course Christianity condemns suicide, because it's covering its own behind! How exactly a suicide (of which, by the way, there have always been plenty in Christendom) is actually supposed effectively to "denounce" Christ is never explained.

You're boring me, Beebert. Because I think you're just flatly unwilling to tackle the fact that your emotional attachments are hopelessly muddying your thoughts about Christ and the Church. There's nothing to defend here and so you're running in circles. Instead, try for some clarity of thought.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #147 on: June 27, 2017, 07:41:01 PM »
Did I say they had a place in the "christian echelon"?

Yes. You're constantly quoting depraved thinkers and artists in your claims about God and the Church.

Quote
By the way, his name is Leopardi. And he was the one who opened my eyes to christianity positively along with Dostoevsky. Why? Because of two things: 1. He praised Jesus as the one who more than anyone had managed to expose hypocrites and oppressors. 2. He showed, in a very beautiful and striking way, what world without God looks like.

Exposing the Church as hypocrites and painting a world without God are not "beautiful." At any rate, if he is a beautiful spiritual thinker, you've managed here on OC.net only to quote dreary blasphemies of his. Try again.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #148 on: June 27, 2017, 07:42:19 PM »
Did I say they had a place in the "christian echelon"?

Yes. You're constantly quoting depraved thinkers and artists in your claims about God and the Church.

Quote
By the way, his name is Leopardi. And he was the one who opened my eyes to christianity positively along with Dostoevsky. Why? Because of two things: 1. He praised Jesus as the one who more than anyone had managed to expose hypocrites and oppressors. 2. He showed, in a very beautiful and striking way, what world without God looks like.

Exposing the Church as hypocrites and painting a world without God are not "beautiful." At any rate, if he is a beautiful spiritual thinker, you've managed here on OC.net only to quote dreary blasphemies of his. Try again.
You are blind sir. I will not talk more to you. I can say one last thing: He had no contact with the orthodox church  as he was italian, so what are you talking about? Is the church the pharisees for you? Because those were the kinds Leopardi meant that Jesus exposed. And that he praised him for. He also had a high view of the catholic church, even though he didn't believe in its teachings. Painting a world without God is what Solomo does in The Ecclesiastes too. Don't you get my point? I said that Leopardi, by his way of describing life as a man struggling and then falling down an abyss proved there was a God. If you don't understand that contradiction, I can't understand how you can appreciate anything but in-learned dogmas.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:47:05 PM by beebert »
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Offline beebert

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #149 on: June 27, 2017, 07:49:00 PM »
He doesn't by the way promote suicide, I just wanted to mention that too.

He taught that, as the will of a man is the only reality, when circumstances challenge the will too much then suicide is the "emphatic assertion of this will." He recurred to this subject in his books, but also wrote a special essay on it. Let's take a look at the essay in part:

"The inmost kernel of Christianity is the truth that suffering -- the Cross -- is the real end and object of life. Hence Christianity condemns suicide as thwarting this end." Well that's slander, and he tries to be clever about it.

"The extraordinary energy and zeal with which the clergy of monotheistic religions attack suicide is not supported either by any passages in the Bible or by any considerations of weight; so that it looks as though they must have some secret reason for their contention." Again the slander, and again the thinking himself very clever by wording things in a concise but sophistical way.

"May it not be this -- that the voluntary surrender of life is a bad compliment for him who said that 'all things were very good'?" More of the same. Worded to make the simpler reader think something very clever has happened. However, the slander has now become directly blasphemous.

"If this is so [::)], it offers another instance of the crass optimism of these religions -- denouncing suicide to escape being denounced by it." So now he has moved on to begging his questions, in his usual, faux philosopher, fashion, but he has also interjected a suspicion, an accusation of motive, an ad hominem. Of course Christianity condemns suicide, because it's covering its own behind! How exactly a suicide (of which, by the way, there have always been plenty in Christendom) is actually supposed effectively to "denounce" Christ is never explained.

You're boring me, Beebert. Because I think you're just flatly unwilling to tackle the fact that your emotional attachments are hopelessly muddying your thoughts about Christ and the Church. There's nothing to defend here and so you're running in circles. Instead, try for some clarity of thought.
Tell me about clarity of thought, the gift you have.

Now, Schopenhauer isn't promoting suicide there. He is trying to defend it from the idea that suicide is to be condemned as some hideous crime that deserves sever punishment in hell(when sometimes, as you know and as the church now knows, suicide can be commited because someone simply suffers so much that his mind is not clear).

Did you btw know that Luther once witnessed a child who hanged himself? And Luther himself took down the child and wanted to bury him, but the people around him(who believed in what the catholic church taught) said stuff like "You are not aloud to bury him! He is a self-murderer! He is damned!" And Luther is supposed to have replied: "God must be mercy"
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:56:17 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #150 on: June 27, 2017, 08:03:48 PM »
Thread locked pending review.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #151 on: June 29, 2017, 11:42:33 AM »
Unlocked.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #152 on: June 29, 2017, 12:08:07 PM »
The book of revelation is not really a book of peace as far as I can see(except perhaps for those written in the book of life who can laugh and rejoice over the tortures of the damned in the end)
Looks like there may come a time we have to add Beebertism to the Which False Religion Do You Dislike More threads.
I would love to see how you summarize the doctrines of that religion!

Pretty easy. Popular Victorian enemies of Christianity become Fathers among the Saints. The Canon is reduced to a handful of partial books. "Do as thou wilt, and it harm not Beebert's feelings," becomes the Creed.
Now mind you; I do not at any rate despise christianity as it is practiced by people like Francis of Assisi and Starets Silouan, as I have mentioned so many times. That to me is true christianity. But what institutional christianity(especially in the west) has done in the name of Christ, I despise more than most things. The oppression, the murders, the dogmatic fights, the burning of heretics, the threatenings of hell to poor common people done by a church of power, etc. It is not easy to discover the lovely truth behind all this wickedness done in the name of Christ and God.

Surely you at least occasionally glimpse how much of this is your imagination? For some reason, your ego is pleased to align itself with and even clumsily exaggerate, say, a Schopenhauer. You then give yourself over entirely to negative and histrionic emotion. In the meantime, if you with a cool head can truly say that the prospect of hell is nothing but a sadistic fraud, or, for that matter, that books of the Bible are nothing but sadistic frauds, then, yes, you have a lot of work ahead of you finding the "true Christianity." Please recall that Francis of Assissi or St. Silouan were not men who railed at God or denied the Bible.
Schopenhauer was a brilliant philosopher. I don't care whether he was a brilliant man in private life or not. Beethoven I believe was the greatest genius to have lived. But he lived an awful private life and was a very rude man. We are all sinners. Have you read 'The World as Will and Representation'? It is shockingly beautiful. I think most of the prospects of hell has been nothing but sadistic frauds yes. And I am not alone among "christians"(I don't like to call myself a christian, because I am not one, I rather would say that at best I am about to become one, or trying to be willing to become one) to think that is the case. Or do you think that all christian writers during the patristic era got their ideas about hell right? I would say that the sadistic inventions of many christians can be traced back to book like the book of revelation in the bible yes. And murders and crimes committed by christians can be traced back to the old testament. Now... Does that mean that what the sadists that interpreted the bible in that sadistic sense were right about the bible? No. But that is not what I have said.  Of course I recall that neither Francis nor Silouan ever railed at God or the bible. And I am far from the truth.

I can't believe you actually wrote all this out plain as day. Schopenhauer was a wretched little man in every way, intellectually, personally, even physically. Unlike Russell's notorious claim, he was an atheist unable even to enjoy his breakfast. Yet, yes, he made himself a grandiosely bitter enemy of God and Christ, humankind, and for some reason women. Anyone who can read him with a straight face and unqueasy stomach has lost all claim to my respect, even if that reader had the excuse of being, oh, I don't know, a Deutschephile thirteen-year-old. Since you in fact have read him at some length, I can't grant you the excuse of ignorance that was just drawn to some allusion about him (I've known teenagers for whom this was the case). Therefore, that you not only support the man's blasphemous tirades but would run him up the flagpole of your own personal religion and parade about openly beneath it is -- well. I assume you do it to be shocking.
He admired certain christian traditions and praised them. Didn't you by the way respect Tolstoy? Perhaps it is time for you to lose your respect for him. I guess there are things you don't get.

 "Do you know what this summer has meant for me? Constant raptures over Schopenhauer and a whole series of spiritual delights which I've never experienced before. ... no student has ever studied so much on his course, and learned so much, as I have this summer. Schopenhauer is one of the greatest geniuses among men..."

Who said that you think? Only an idiot would read Schopenhauer and then simply pronounce him as being some stupid and wretched loser only to be appreciated by 13-year olds or whatever...

Not much of a Tolstoy fan.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #153 on: June 30, 2017, 05:43:29 PM »
Which religion do you dislike/hate more? Mormonism or Islam?

(Note: These are about the religions (i.e the ideas) of Islam and Mormonism NOT the followers of Mormonism or Islam. As Christians, we should pray for followers of both these religions so that they may see the light of Christ and come and follow him.)
Ironically they're both founded by a couple of mentally unstable individuals who went up to the mountains and had some religious"experiences" that caused them to go into epileptic type fits while they were recieving their "revelations" by themselves which no one else could prove or disprove. They also founded similiar religions based on bigamy, violence and murder.

I don't care much for either of them.

Although I would give Islam the edge for it's condemnation of Usury.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 05:44:26 PM by Charles Martel »
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #154 on: August 01, 2017, 03:09:12 AM »
Islam has better art. Therefore Islam wins.

Mormonism has hotter, whiter women. Therefore the 19th century backwoods spaceman folk religion wins.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #155 on: August 01, 2017, 09:38:06 AM »
Islam has better art. Therefore Islam wins.

Mormonism has hotter, whiter women. Therefore the 19th century backwoods spaceman folk religion wins.

I see you are still committed to dishonoring your poor uncle by attaching his face to your braindead comments.
Quote
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #156 on: August 01, 2017, 10:00:27 AM »
Islam has better art. Therefore Islam wins.

Mormonism has hotter, whiter women. Therefore the 19th century backwoods spaceman folk religion wins.

I see you are still committed to dishonoring your poor uncle by attaching his face to your braindead comments.

+1

Quote
hotter, whiter women

Oh, Lord.  If there's any justice, one of the 72 concubines some jihadi gets in paradise is going to have "virginal chicano blood".
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #157 on: August 01, 2017, 06:37:20 PM »
Islam has better art. Therefore Islam wins.

Mormonism has hotter, whiter women. Therefore the 19th century backwoods spaceman folk religion wins.

I see you are still committed to dishonoring your poor uncle by attaching his face to your braindead comments.

I'm sure you're a bigger disgrace to your ancestors by continuing to frequent a message board full of neckbeards and losers whereas I actually led a productive year before returning to this place. Do you not like white women? Or is it that you simply do not like women at all and would prefer to [vulgar verb deleted] to cyberbullying me all day?

Dear JamesR, you have been just warned for using ad hominems in another thread. This post also contains ad hominem and a vulgar verb. Such way of posting can not be tolerated in a Christian Orthodox forum. Since you have got a high puntative warning, I will not increase it.

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« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 07:16:43 PM by Dominika »

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #158 on: August 01, 2017, 07:01:58 PM »
Islam has better art. Therefore Islam wins.

Mormonism has hotter, whiter women. Therefore the 19th century backwoods spaceman folk religion wins.

I see you are still committed to dishonoring your poor uncle by attaching his face to your braindead comments.

I'm sure you're a bigger disgrace to your ancestors by continuing to frequent a message board full of neckbeards and losers whereas I actually led a productive year before returning to this place. Do you not like white women? Or is it that you simply do not like women at all and would prefer to jerk off to cyberbullying me all day?

You come back here posting nothing but deliberately vile and inflammatory stuff in several threads and accuse those who react of cyber-bullying you?  Are you serious?
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #159 on: August 21, 2017, 03:26:40 PM »
I have a hard time believing that.  Most Christian converts to Islam are fully aware that they are joining a new religion which contends that Our Lord Jesus Christ is not God Incarnate but simply a prophet, and not even the last or the greatest of those.  I'm not willing to buy the load of malarkey that this is simply a difference between the methods of Islamic missionaries in the USA vs. Brazil either.  The world is clear on the fact that Islam and Christianity are two different faiths.  Not so much with Christianity vs. Charismatic cults or even Christianity vs. "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints".  For simple-minded would-be converts, the choice between Jesus and "Allah" is one thing, while the choice between Jesus and "Jesus" is something else entirely.  In the latter case, they are not always aware that they are leaving Christianity.

Quote
Muslims grow in Brazil converting Evangelicals, claims researcher

According to Amanda Dias, the Evangelicals who convert Muslims are attracted by the idea that Islamic religion works parallel to Christianity: "There is some continuity [of moral values] between the Evangelical Church and Islam, in pudorous clothes and so on, and, in Brazil, [Islam] will insist on this continuity. The first book they will receive when entering a mosque is "Jesus, a prophet of Islam". There is doctrinal continuity, too.

https://noticias.gospelmais.com.br/muculmanos-crescem-brasil-convertendo-evangelicos-pesquisadora-88156.html
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 03:31:27 PM by RaphaCam »
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Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #160 on: August 21, 2017, 04:36:38 PM »
I have a hard time believing that.  Most Christian converts to Islam are fully aware that they are joining a new religion which contends that Our Lord Jesus Christ is not God Incarnate but simply a prophet, and not even the last or the greatest of those.  I'm not willing to buy the load of malarkey that this is simply a difference between the methods of Islamic missionaries in the USA vs. Brazil either.  The world is clear on the fact that Islam and Christianity are two different faiths.  Not so much with Christianity vs. Charismatic cults or even Christianity vs. "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints".  For simple-minded would-be converts, the choice between Jesus and "Allah" is one thing, while the choice between Jesus and "Jesus" is something else entirely.  In the latter case, they are not always aware that they are leaving Christianity.

Quote
Muslims grow in Brazil converting Evangelicals, claims researcher

According to Amanda Dias, the Evangelicals who convert Muslims are attracted by the idea that Islamic religion works parallel to Christianity: "There is some continuity [of moral values] between the Evangelical Church and Islam, in pudorous clothes and so on, and, in Brazil, [Islam] will insist on this continuity. The first book they will receive when entering a mosque is "Jesus, a prophet of Islam". There is doctrinal continuity, too.

https://noticias.gospelmais.com.br/muculmanos-crescem-brasil-convertendo-evangelicos-pesquisadora-88156.html

None of this in any way invalidates anything I've posted.  These people have to know that demoting Christ from God the Word to a mere prophet means that they are entering a new faith.  Acknowledging that there is some "continuity of doctrine" between Christianity and Islam doesn't change that.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #161 on: August 21, 2017, 08:48:51 PM »
I'm sorry, but what is the point of this post?

Not to come across in a rude manner, but will such a post like this convert people to Holy Orthodoxy from Islam or Mormonism?

No, in fact it will probably do the opposite if, guided by the Holy Spirit, they are looking into Orthodoxy.

Simply calling someone's entire cultural and religious belief system "stupid" or "I dislike that person's belief system more!" is not loving.

It is important to criticize these belief systems which is viewed as heterodox, and to criticize some of the moral and faithful errors of these religions (denial of the Holy Trinity, Polygamy, denial that Christ is literally the Only Begotten Son, historical violence that was and is condoned, contradictions of Saint Paul's and Saint Peter's words about the use of Mosaic food regulations), as well as the motivations and intents of these self-proclaimed prophets and scholars, and the historical contradictions that they have published (the idea of more than one God, prophecies which never came true, the history of violence and scamming those prophets have done) but simply having a hissy-fit contest about how much you "hate" this form of heterodoxy vs this form is not efficient progress.

If something is not Orthodox, it was made evil by man. There is Truth, and Falsehood - so lets bring them to Truth instead of wasting time discussing which one you "hate" more.

Christ pointed out the errors of the Pharisees and was harsh at them, like we should be - but I don't believe He ever sat down and talked about how the Pharisees in their ideological belief systems were bad, but better than the Sadducees or the Samaritans.

No, instead, He taught "I am the Way, the Truth, the Life. Nobody comes to the Father except through Me."


And such posts like "I'll take white women over those Muslims" doesn't help convert our Middle Eastern brothers and sisters, who are our siblings as, despite their sins, they have the same Father as we do. I encourage you guys to read the published statement of the OCA bishops about white supremacy and violent anti-fascism.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 08:55:03 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #162 on: August 21, 2017, 08:55:43 PM »
Not to come across in a rude manner, but will such a post like this convert people to Holy Orthodoxy from Islam or Mormonism?

Since the person who created the thread is not Orthodox, I seriously doubt he has any interest in converting anyone to Holy Orthodoxy.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #163 on: August 21, 2017, 08:59:50 PM »
Quote
"There is some continuity [of moral values] between the Evangelical Church and Islam, in pudorous clothes and so on....
Hmm..."pudorous" is not (though "pudor" is, according to the OED) actually an English word. Is it from the Portuguese?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 09:00:51 PM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
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Offline William T

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #164 on: August 21, 2017, 09:02:21 PM »
I'm sorry, but what is the point of this post?

Not to come across in a rude manner, but will such a post like this convert people to Holy Orthodoxy from Islam or Mormonism?

No, in fact it will probably do the opposite if, guided by the Holy Spirit, they are looking into Orthodoxy.

Simply calling someone's entire cultural and religious belief system "stupid" or "I dislike that person's belief system more!" is not loving.

It is important to criticize these belief systems which is viewed as heterodox, and to criticize some of the moral and faithful errors of these religions (denial of the Holy Trinity, Polygamy, denial that Christ is literally the Only Begotten Son, historical violence that was and is condoned, contradictions of Saint Paul's and Saint Peter's words about the use of Mosaic food regulations), as well as the motivations and intents of these self-proclaimed prophets and scholars, and the historical contradictions that they have published (the idea of more than one God, prophecies which never came true, the history of violence and scamming those prophets have done) but simply having a hissy-fit contest about how much you "hate" this form of heterodoxy vs this form is not efficient progress.

If something is not Orthodox, it was made evil by man. There is Truth, and Falsehood - so lets bring them to Truth instead of wasting time discussing which one you "hate" more.

Christ pointed out the errors of the Pharisees and was harsh at them, like we should be - but I don't believe He ever sat down and talked about how the Pharisees in their ideological belief systems were bad, but better than the Sadducees or the Samaritans.

No, instead, He taught "I am the Way, the Truth, the Life. Nobody comes to the Father except through Me."

1)  You can compare doctrines and philosophies in an abstract sense.  If you think someone having an "ultimate commitment" to a Nazi doctrine or a Rotary Club is the same thing, or their "ideal type" or practical consequences of application, I don't think you're playing with a full deck.

2)  Giving personal anecdotes or experiences is useful.  I have a lot of experience with Muslims and very little with Mormons or many post-Christian protestant sects in general.  Discussion about perspectives , personal experience or anecdotes, and approaches is not bad.  Even two Orthodox people blowing off steam to eachother is not a bad thing, as long as people aren't taking such comments with a heavy hand.  I know the internet is a strange place, and "private conversation" is a foreign concept to some people, but being on a site calle OrthodoxChristianity.net and thinking it's OK for Orthodox Christianity to be a home field perspective where you can be a bit more candid or exacerbated isn't that radical a position.

3) If something is not Orthodox, it was made evil by man. .


what?
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #165 on: August 21, 2017, 09:02:34 PM »
Not to come across in a rude manner, but will such a post like this convert people to Holy Orthodoxy from Islam or Mormonism?

Since the person who created the thread is not Orthodox, I seriously doubt he has any interest in converting anyone to Holy Orthodoxy.

Touche.
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Offline William T

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #166 on: August 21, 2017, 09:03:55 PM »


Also there is no need to patronize someones emotions or intellect if they ask me who I respect more, the Yankees or Red Sox....if they ask they ask, why not just respect the question
Holy Toledo!

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #167 on: August 21, 2017, 09:08:53 PM »
I'm sorry, but what is the point of this post?

Not to come across in a rude manner, but will such a post like this convert people to Holy Orthodoxy from Islam or Mormonism?

No, in fact it will probably do the opposite if, guided by the Holy Spirit, they are looking into Orthodoxy.

Simply calling someone's entire cultural and religious belief system "stupid" or "I dislike that person's belief system more!" is not loving.

It is important to criticize these belief systems which is viewed as heterodox, and to criticize some of the moral and faithful errors of these religions (denial of the Holy Trinity, Polygamy, denial that Christ is literally the Only Begotten Son, historical violence that was and is condoned, contradictions of Saint Paul's and Saint Peter's words about the use of Mosaic food regulations), as well as the motivations and intents of these self-proclaimed prophets and scholars, and the historical contradictions that they have published (the idea of more than one God, prophecies which never came true, the history of violence and scamming those prophets have done) but simply having a hissy-fit contest about how much you "hate" this form of heterodoxy vs this form is not efficient progress.

If something is not Orthodox, it was made evil by man. There is Truth, and Falsehood - so lets bring them to Truth instead of wasting time discussing which one you "hate" more.

Christ pointed out the errors of the Pharisees and was harsh at them, like we should be - but I don't believe He ever sat down and talked about how the Pharisees in their ideological belief systems were bad, but better than the Sadducees or the Samaritans.

No, instead, He taught "I am the Way, the Truth, the Life. Nobody comes to the Father except through Me."

1)  You can compare doctrines and philosophies in an abstract sense.  If you think someone having an "ultimate commitment" to a Nazi doctrine or a Rotary Club is the same thing, or their "ideal type" or practical consequences of application, I don't think you're playing with a full deck.

2)  Giving personal anecdotes or experiences is useful.  I have a lot of experience with Muslims and very little with Mormons or many post-Christian protestant sects in general.  Discussion about perspectives , personal experience or anecdotes, and approaches is not bad.  Even two Orthodox people blowing off steam to eachother is not a bad thing, as long as people aren't taking such comments with a heavy hand.  I know the internet is a strange place, and "private conversation" is a foreign concept to some people, but being on a site calle OrthodoxChristianity.net and thinking it's OK for Orthodox Christianity to be a home field perspective where you can be a bit more candid or exacerbated isn't that radical a position.

3) If something is not Orthodox, it was made evil by man. .


what?

1. and 2. Yeah, sure, but why are we discussing it in such a way about how much better one entire cultural and heterodox belief system is hated more than another? And I agree with this point, and we should share our experiences - but I don't believe snickering with elitism about how better and right we are, while kissing our own souls, is an effective and humility-based approach for such discussion. My problem was more or less about the format and tone of the original question. Sure, let's compare Mormonism and Islam - not which one we hate more.

3. So you would tell me that contemporary Judaism, Islam, and Protestantism were all motivated by the Holy Spirit? If not the Holy Spirit, then what force created these theological belief systems? If not God, then what?
Not that such ideas are purely evil and nothing good can come out of it, but in its origin....yeah.
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #168 on: August 21, 2017, 09:34:29 PM »
Quote
"There is some continuity [of moral values] between the Evangelical Church and Islam, in pudorous clothes and so on....
Hmm..."pudorous" is not (though "pudor" is, according to the OED) actually an English word. Is it from the Portuguese?
"Pudoroso" is not a very common word, but it exists, so for some reason I tried writing an English equivalent. "Pudic" would be suitable (as "pudico" would also be more common in Portuguese). Thanks for the correction.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #169 on: August 21, 2017, 10:12:14 PM »
Quote
"There is some continuity [of moral values] between the Evangelical Church and Islam, in pudorous clothes and so on....
Hmm..."pudorous" is not (though "pudor" is, according to the OED) actually an English word. Is it from the Portuguese?

We have the word "impudence" but not "pudence." We would just say "modest."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #170 on: August 22, 2017, 08:02:42 AM »
Revelation is pretty clear if someone is familiar with Old Testament. Otherwise many can fall to many errors. It is the story of Jesus and of the world from creation till the age to come. The lake of fire the book says that is the second death. The hell. The hell that our Fathers say that is a spiritual state and not a created place with torments.

Yeah................
I don't know if "pretty clear" is the best word to describe it. I wonder if any of us, unless we truly are in a pure spiritual state, can say "for sure" what this means or that means.

I personally have come to the conclusion that the most clear way of interpreting the Book of Revelation is through typology.

For example, in Revelation 12, the dragon chasing the woman with the child into the desert is clearly a reference to Herod trying to kill Jesus and the angel moving Mary and Joseph to Egypt, but it is typological in that it refers to Satan literally trying to destroy the Church of Christ and failing to do so.

The Beast of Revelation is, to me, a reference to Nero / Domitian, with the "head that was wounded by the sword and healed" (with Nero killing himself by the sword and Domitian fulfilling the place of Nero), but it also refers to the Antichrist and the final persecution (as the Book of Revelation states the beast was, is not, and is to come).

Indeed, the city of seven hills not only refers to Rome, but Jerusalem as well - as both were built with seven hills.

Those are my thoughts.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #171 on: August 22, 2017, 11:34:23 AM »
Human history is a progression only in the sense that it's a gyre. That is, much as the procession of the priest in a circle toward the icon of the Christ is said to lift the assembled toward heaven, so only by repeated cycles of strengthening "typos" does the Age of Man arise to enter the ageless heaven. The Revelation is a powerful prophecy, song, and picture of just this gyring activity. Babylon is Rome is Spain is Britain is America. The Holy Martyrs are the New Martyrs are the slain prophets in the center of Jerusalem. The table is the Last Supper, is the Eucharist, is the reunion feast in heaven. And so on. "And I, if I be lifted up shall draw all men after me."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ZackShenouda439

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #172 on: October 16, 2017, 04:34:22 PM »
Which religion do you dislike/hate more? Mormonism or Islam?

(Note: These are about the religions (i.e the ideas) of Islam and Mormonism NOT the followers of Mormonism or Islam. As Christians, we should pray for followers of both these religions so that they may see the light of Christ and come and follow him.)

Islam. Islam explicitly commands christians to reject that Jesus is God. it's a religion that actually makes instruction to non-muslims/unbelievers.

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

 Qur'an, sura 4

All the main schools of Islamic Jurisprudence endorse capital punishment for apostates. Most muslims belong to at least one of these schools of fiqh. See the rulings.

Al-Hanafiyyah

Imam al-Marghinaaniy says: "If a Muslim, may Allah forbid turns away from Islam, the religion of Islam should be presented to him. If he has any doubts they should be cleared…and he should be kept under supervision for 3 days. If he reverts to Islam, he must be set free, otherwise he should be executed. (Al-Hidaya)

Allamah Ibn ‘Aabideen says: "Note well! It is unanimous that a renegade from Islam must be executed" (Rasaa’il Ibn Aabideen)

Al-Maalikiyyah

Imam Maalik says: "The one who renegades from Islam to another religion and exposes it will be asked to repent from his action. If he does not repent, he must be executed." (Al-Mu’atta lil Imam Maalik)

Al-shaafi’iyyah

Imam al-Shaafi’iy says: "One who renegades from Islam will not be left alone, either he reverts to Islam or he will be executed." (Kitab al-Umm)

Al-Hanaabilah

Allamah Ibn Qudaama al-Hanbaliy says: "All the scholars are unanimous that a renegade must be executed." (Al-Mughniy with Sharh al-Kabir Vol.10 Pg.74 Dar al-Kutub al-Ilmiyyah Beirut)


Islam is not only false but it's particularly savage. No religion like it exists. Islam is truly the scourge of the earth.


Offline Volnutt

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #173 on: October 21, 2017, 12:52:43 AM »

2)  Mormonism by contrast has how many degrees of separation with anything resembling Classical Christianity?  As far as I can tell it may be removed pretty far from the Catholic Church.  Either way, I think the "degrees" are hard to pin down due to how Christianity sprung up in America and how we look at this kind of "low Protestantism".

Catholicism->Anglicanism->Methodism (more or less Joseph Smith's initial background)->"Burned over district" revivalism (there's some Quaker and Baptist influence involved in laying the groundwork here, as in all American revivalism)->Mormonism
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #174 on: October 21, 2017, 01:28:42 AM »
the blasphemy that Jesus Christ is also St. Michael, et cetera. 

Interestingly, I think Charles Spurgeon also believed that.

ETA: In that he thought that "Michael" was just a pre-Incarnate alias of Christ. He didn't believe Christ was an angel.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 01:31:08 AM by Volnutt »
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Nicodemusz138

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #175 on: October 21, 2017, 07:22:04 AM »
the blasphemy that Jesus Christ is also St. Michael, et cetera. 

Interestingly, I think Charles Spurgeon also believed that.

ETA: In that he thought that "Michael" was just a pre-Incarnate alias of Christ. He didn't believe Christ was an angel.

Just like the Seventh Day Adventists.

I do not think this is heresy or blasphemy, it does not denies the Trinity at all, unlike the JW view of Michael/Jesus.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 07:24:51 AM by Nicodemusz138 »
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #176 on: October 21, 2017, 02:58:24 PM »
the blasphemy that Jesus Christ is also St. Michael, et cetera. 

Interestingly, I think Charles Spurgeon also believed that.

ETA: In that he thought that "Michael" was just a pre-Incarnate alias of Christ. He didn't believe Christ was an angel.

Just like the Seventh Day Adventists.

I do not think this is heresy or blasphemy, it does not denies the Trinity at all, unlike the JW view of Michael/Jesus.

I think it is both heresy and blasphemy, and at the very least, erroneous teaching.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #177 on: October 21, 2017, 09:55:06 PM »
the blasphemy that Jesus Christ is also St. Michael, et cetera. 

Interestingly, I think Charles Spurgeon also believed that.

ETA: In that he thought that "Michael" was just a pre-Incarnate alias of Christ. He didn't believe Christ was an angel.

Just like the Seventh Day Adventists.

I do not think this is heresy or blasphemy, it does not denies the Trinity at all, unlike the JW view of Michael/Jesus.

I think it is both heresy and blasphemy, and at the very least, erroneous teaching.

Why would it be blasphemy? Is it really that important that St. Michael exist as an angel? That's almost like saying that it's blasphemous to hold that Sts. Theodore the General and Theodore the Tyro are the same person erroneously split into two.
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #178 on: October 22, 2017, 05:51:12 PM »
the blasphemy that Jesus Christ is also St. Michael, et cetera. 

Interestingly, I think Charles Spurgeon also believed that.

ETA: In that he thought that "Michael" was just a pre-Incarnate alias of Christ. He didn't believe Christ was an angel.

Just like the Seventh Day Adventists.

I do not think this is heresy or blasphemy, it does not denies the Trinity at all, unlike the JW view of Michael/Jesus.

I think it is both heresy and blasphemy, and at the very least, erroneous teaching.

Why would it be blasphemy? Is it really that important that St. Michael exist as an angel?

We know who St. Michael is.  He is a real person and a created being.  Not an alias of the Logos.

That's almost like saying that it's blasphemous to hold that Sts. Theodore the General and Theodore the Tyro are the same person erroneously split into two.

No, it's not.  They are both men and created beings.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #179 on: October 22, 2017, 06:20:09 PM »
the blasphemy that Jesus Christ is also St. Michael, et cetera. 

Interestingly, I think Charles Spurgeon also believed that.

ETA: In that he thought that "Michael" was just a pre-Incarnate alias of Christ. He didn't believe Christ was an angel.

Just like the Seventh Day Adventists.

I do not think this is heresy or blasphemy, it does not denies the Trinity at all, unlike the JW view of Michael/Jesus.

I think it is both heresy and blasphemy, and at the very least, erroneous teaching.

Why would it be blasphemy? Is it really that important that St. Michael exist as an angel?

We know who St. Michael is.  He is a real person and a created being.  Not an alias of the Logos.

That's almost like saying that it's blasphemous to hold that Sts. Theodore the General and Theodore the Tyro are the same person erroneously split into two.

No, it's not.  They are both men and created beings.

But Spurgeon and the SDAs are not saying that Christ is a created being. Just that one particular created being (St. Michael) did not really exist and that Christ did all the things that we think are St. Michael.
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #180 on: October 22, 2017, 06:37:39 PM »