Author Topic: Native American spirit guides  (Read 412 times)

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Offline Ainnir

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Native American spirit guides
« on: June 20, 2017, 09:27:19 PM »
Does anyone want to tackle an 11-year-old's question of what it was Nez Perce youths received as "spirit guides," if anything?
I've had to pull the "I'll get back to you on that."
I'm going to go try to inform myself on the historical aspect, though I welcome resources if anyone knows of any.
I have no idea what to say about the spiritual/religious side of things.

I'm fine with a broader discussion of tribal religions in general, but she referenced "all the books [she has] read about Native Americans" (3, lol), which happen to all be about the Nez Perce.  So that's where my focus is going for now.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Native American spirit guides
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2017, 10:05:25 PM »
Given that the kids were left out alone in the desert with no food or drink for a week, I would suspect they received hallucinations.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Native American spirit guides
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2017, 10:52:37 PM »
Can you say more about the spirit guides?
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Native American spirit guides
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2017, 11:28:52 PM »
Does anyone want to tackle an 11-year-old's question of what it was Nez Perce youths received as "spirit guides," if anything?
I've had to pull the "I'll get back to you on that."
I'm going to go try to inform myself on the historical aspect, though I welcome resources if anyone knows of any.
I have no idea what to say about the spiritual/religious side of things.

I'm fine with a broader discussion of tribal religions in general, but she referenced "all the books [she has] read about Native Americans" (3, lol), which happen to all be about the Nez Perce.  So that's where my focus is going for now.

Many, many cultures had coming-of-age ordeals for young men, or new fathers, obviously to supplement a perceived lack for men in the way of what nature provides for girls and women in menarche and childbirth. Were these fruits of the ingenuity of elders actually able to change the lives of young men, provide them with spiritual compass and a sense of place? I doubt they could have persisted worldwide for millennia if not. Animals were equated with the gods in cultures worldwide, as well. Specifically, the gods were credited with teaching men how to survive and thrive, of leading the way to heaven, and so on. If one stops to ponder the sheer scale of the ingenuity required to, say, develop a thriving and sustainable culture in the Outback, or on ocean islands, or in the polar regions, then one doesn't doubt the gods or God had a hand, and when one realizes animals in fact thrive in all those areas, the idea that God or the gods are in the animals or are the animals does not seem unreasonable. What am I getting to with all this? That your daughter's question actually touches on the very nature of man and society and culture and religious understanding. A spirit animal is an personal icon and thus is only a facet but an inseparable part of an entire theology and practical way of life.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Native American spirit guides
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2017, 08:43:10 AM »
Can you say more about the spirit guides?

I can now, a little.
Tris points out that the vision quest involved fasting (complete?) for several days, remote locations...the only number I could find was 4 days, though.  Hallucination may very well be a big part of any visions, but then there's this:
Quote
The Nez Perce, like many cultures throughout the Columbia Plateau, base their belief system upon the wéeyekin (spirit guardian), also called the spirit-guardian tradition. The wéeyekin system consists of a core set of religious beliefs centering on the existence of transcendent power as well as a set of unifying cultural practices that integrate such beliefs into Nez Perce society. A fundamental notion informing the wéeyekin system is the existence of an innate power or force in the universe. Elements of this power can become manifest as superhuman agents or spirit beings who become attached to individual human beings. Once acquired, a wéeyekin acts as a lifelong tutelary to its human recipient.
From the second section of this article, which I may have her read, but I'll need to be able to discuss it and I'm not sure I can yet.  The bolded is the idea that originated the question, and what concerns me (maybe unduly?).
I can't find much else that deals specifically with this subject without digging into bibliographies and ordering books.  That seems a little extreme just yet.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Native American spirit guides
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2017, 01:18:25 PM »
This sounds a lot like widespread possession, as it's also common among the peoples of the Gulf of Guinea.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Native American spirit guides
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2017, 06:01:18 PM »
There's also pages 24-27 of this book
This is more clearly off in terms of general beliefs (assuming it's an accurate representation).  Plus it further describes a Wyakin as acting "according to its power and inclination" on page 25, which could be nothing (superstition), could be scary.
For the Scriptural side of things, I'm operating under Romans 1:20-25 and Romans 2:12-16, which may be wrong (it may be bending the application a tad), but that's all I could dredge up from my memory for now.

Today she asked what yoga was.   :o :-X :laugh:

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Native American spirit guides
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2017, 06:20:48 PM »
There's also pages 24-27 of this book
This is more clearly off in terms of general beliefs (assuming it's an accurate representation).  Plus it further describes a Wyakin as acting "according to its power and inclination" on page 25, which could be nothing (superstition), could be scary.
For the Scriptural side of things, I'm operating under Romans 1:20-25 and Romans 2:12-16, which may be wrong (it may be bending the application a tad), but that's all I could dredge up from my memory for now.

So these are useful as generic damnations of non-Christian peoples? They knew better, they chose idolatry, they'll burn?

Quote
Today she asked what yoga was.   :o :-X :laugh:

Well this one at least is easy to answer. Fashionable Hollywood types in the very early 1900s first had a craze for exercises for ladies1 and then had a craze for traveling Hindu (specifically, neo-Vedanta) lecturers2. Various entrepreneurial American chaps saw an opportunity in combining the fads, and the rest is history.

________
1.


2.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Native American spirit guides
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2017, 07:19:23 PM »
There's also pages 24-27 of this book
This is more clearly off in terms of general beliefs (assuming it's an accurate representation).  Plus it further describes a Wyakin as acting "according to its power and inclination" on page 25, which could be nothing (superstition), could be scary.
For the Scriptural side of things, I'm operating under Romans 1:20-25 and Romans 2:12-16, which may be wrong (it may be bending the application a tad), but that's all I could dredge up from my memory for now.

So these are useful as generic damnations of non-Christian peoples? They knew better, they chose idolatry, they'll burn?

Quote
Today she asked what yoga was.   :o :-X :laugh:

Well this one at least is easy to answer. Fashionable Hollywood types in the very early 1900s first had a craze for exercises for ladies1 and then had a craze for traveling Hindu (specifically, neo-Vedanta) lecturers2. Various entrepreneurial American chaps saw an opportunity in combining the fads, and the rest is history.

________
1.


2.


You leave the Indian Orthodox Church out of this!!1!
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Native American spirit guides
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2017, 07:21:11 PM »
:laugh: :laugh:
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Native American spirit guides
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2017, 09:40:21 PM »
There's also pages 24-27 of this book
This is more clearly off in terms of general beliefs (assuming it's an accurate representation).  Plus it further describes a Wyakin as acting "according to its power and inclination" on page 25, which could be nothing (superstition), could be scary.
For the Scriptural side of things, I'm operating under Romans 1:20-25 and Romans 2:12-16, which may be wrong (it may be bending the application a tad), but that's all I could dredge up from my memory for now.
So these are useful as generic damnations of non-Christian peoples? They knew better, they chose idolatry, they'll burn?
Not necessarily?  I thought that was rather the point of the second passage?  Maybe I misunderstand it.  But anyway, as I said; I'm only focusing on this particular spirituality--more specifically, what the heck might have been going on, and how one filters that in their own thinking and worldview.  Because that's what she's asking.  "Is this real?  Is it ok?"  And on top of that, no, I don't want their conclusion to be "oh so everyone not like us is awful and/or going to hell" (however "not like us" is defined in the moment).  But that doesn't mean all aspects of all belief systems get a pass, either.  If they did, what's the point in ours?

Today she asked what yoga was.   :o :-X :laugh:
Well this one at least is easy to answer. Fashionable Hollywood types in the very early 1900s first had a craze for exercises for ladies1 and then had a craze for traveling Hindu (specifically, neo-Vedanta) lecturers2. Various entrepreneurial American chaps saw an opportunity in combining the fads, and the rest is history.
:D  Surely it's obvious I'd go (painfully far) beyond a fad, though.   ;)  But I'll get to that one later.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Native American spirit guides
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2017, 10:29:04 PM »
Your daughter's fascination with these seems to mirror your finding them "scary," i.e., being a bit obsessed with them yourself. So pop some corn and have a good Christian ghost-story evening of it, I'd say. Bonus points for spiritual duels between missionaries and yogis or shamans that involve anyone being hurled across a room or hearing voices.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Native American spirit guides
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2017, 07:28:42 AM »
Your daughter's fascination with these seems to mirror your finding them "scary," i.e., being a bit obsessed with them yourself. So pop some corn and have a good Christian ghost-story evening of it, I'd say. Bonus points for spiritual duels between missionaries and yogis or shamans that involve anyone being hurled across a room or hearing voices.

 ???  Maybe I'll save your suggestion for a fallback plan if we can't muddle through.
But you've highlighted my need to work on my communication skills, so thanks for that insight.  ;)

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Re: Native American spirit guides
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2017, 01:09:14 PM »
Your daughter's fascination with these seems to mirror your finding them "scary," i.e., being a bit obsessed with them yourself. So pop some corn and have a good Christian ghost-story evening of it, I'd say. Bonus points for spiritual duels between missionaries and yogis or shamans that involve anyone being hurled across a room or hearing voices.

 ???  Maybe I'll save your suggestion for a fallback plan if we can't muddle through.
But you've highlighted my need to work on my communication skills, so thanks for that insight.  ;)

You're OK.
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