Author Topic: Can a saint fall into sin?  (Read 2638 times)

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Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #90 on: July 22, 2017, 08:48:21 PM »
From Philokalia:

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The Declaration of the Holy Mountain (also known as 'The Hagioritic Tome': Greek text, ed. P.K. Christou, vol. ii, pp. 567-78). This short statement of the hesychast standpoint, drafted by St Gregory Palamas in 1340, is of particular importance because it bears the signatures of leading Athonite monks and also of the local hierarch, the Bishop of Hierissos in Chalkidiki. This makes it clear that Palamas is expressing, not merely his own personal opinion, but the accepted teaching of the Holy Mountain. Palamas emphasizes the eschatological character of the divine light, which is a foretaste and anticipation of the glory of the age to come. The monks who bear witness to the uncreated light fulfill a prophetic role within the Church: just as the Old Testament prophets foretold Christ's first coming at the incarnation, so the monks as the prophets of the new covenant point forward to His second coming (Prologue). Here as elsewhere Palamas expresses a holistic vision of the human person: the body is glorified along with the soul (§ 4.). Our theosis is in no sense merely symbolical or metaphorical: it is a genuine and specific reality, a pure gift of grace experienced even in this present life (§ 2).

Perhaps you have trouble with grammar. We touched on this in an earlier exchange. In this case, one could as well say, "Our perfection is in no sense merely symbolical ... it is a ... reality" etc. This would in no way require, or even imply, that a subject undergoing perfection is perfect. A process comprises degrees, time, and these do not make it any less "a reality."
I'm very careful when choosing my words. The reason for this is very simple: I'm not a saint, moreover I'm not a theologian. Thus I can only rely on the teaching of our saints. No logic is going to be helpful here.

Hierotheos Vlachos in his book "Orthodox Psychotherapy" chapter 1 (Orthodoxy as a therapeutic science) subchapter 2 (Theology as a therapeutic science) based on the teaching of great orthodox saints writes clearly that any theologizing coming from impure heart is demonic theology. This has been said by saints like St Maximus the confessor and John of Sinai for example. They explicitly state that theology is the greatest gift that is given to saints on very advanced level of sainthood. True Theologians speak only "out of the mouth" of God Himself. Anybody else (I call them armchair theologians) speaking of theology speak out of the mouth of devil. This is not me who says it. Read that chapter, it's there. So, my "grammar" rules are simple. I don't go beyond what is said by this saints. I care not what armchair theologians say.

I've not read anything about theosis being a process. When you supply citations of true Theologians I'll look at it.

Are you a Theologian?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #91 on: July 22, 2017, 09:00:48 PM »
Perhaps you have trouble with grammar. We touched on this in an earlier exchange. In this case, one could as well say, "Our perfection is in no sense merely symbolical ... it is a ... reality" etc. This would in no way require, or even imply, that a subject undergoing perfection is perfect. A process comprises degrees, time, and these do not make it any less "a reality."
I'm very careful when choosing my words. The reason for this is very simple: I'm not a saint, moreover I'm not a theologian. Thus I can only rely on the teaching of our saints. No logic is going to be helpful here.

Yeah that's been obvious for a while now. ::)

Quote
Hierotheos Vlachos in his book "Orthodox Psychotherapy" chapter 1 (Orthodoxy as a therapeutic science) subchapter 2 (Theology as a therapeutic science) based on the teaching of great orthodox saints writes clearly that any theologizing coming from impure heart is demonic theology. This has been said by saints like St Maximus the confessor and John of Sinai for example. They explicitly state that theology is the greatest gift that is given to saints on very advanced level of sainthood. True Theologians speak only "out of the mouth" of God Himself. Anybody else (I call them armchair theologians) speaking of theology speak out of the mouth of devil. This is not me who says it. Read that chapter, it's there. So, my "grammar" rules are simple. I don't go beyond what is said by this saints. I care not what armchair theologians say.

Maybe if you'd read more of the book than "chapter 1, subchapter 2," you'd be able to follow along. This is of a piece with your offering the "seventeenth minute" of a long video and other sophistries of the same ilk above. The eminent Metropolitan's book is here smiling at me from my bookshelf, by the way. A very valuable book, so please re-apply yourself.

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I've not read anything about theosis being a process. When you supply citations of true Theologians I'll look at it.

Are you a Theologian?

I'm not the one making outrageously innovative claims, viz.:

While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves.

So, again, please quote a Saint who said, e.g., I am become a god.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #92 on: July 22, 2017, 09:43:12 PM »
Perhaps you have trouble with grammar. We touched on this in an earlier exchange. In this case, one could as well say, "Our perfection is in no sense merely symbolical ... it is a ... reality" etc. This would in no way require, or even imply, that a subject undergoing perfection is perfect. A process comprises degrees, time, and these do not make it any less "a reality."
I'm very careful when choosing my words. The reason for this is very simple: I'm not a saint, moreover I'm not a theologian. Thus I can only rely on the teaching of our saints. No logic is going to be helpful here.

Yeah that's been obvious for a while now. ::)
I don't understand what exactly you mean. Are you condescending or do you think theology can be a result of logical thinking?


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I'm not the one making outrageously innovative claims, viz.:
What claim did I make?


Quote
While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves.

So, again, please quote a Saint who said, e.g., I am become a god.
You are asking wrong question. No saints has said I'm god in a sense that they have reached this theosis by their own efforts. But sure, they've said by the Grace of God they have become god by grace not by nature. St Paul says: it is no me who is alive but Christ in me. We are circling now viciously.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #93 on: July 22, 2017, 09:45:50 PM »
St Paul says: it is no me who is alive but Christ in me.

That's the best you can do? What part of that says, "I am become a god"? Or even your tamer claim, "Behold, I cannot sin or fail"?

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We are circling now viciously.

No, you are. Feel free to stop any time; you must be awfully dizzy.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #94 on: July 22, 2017, 09:56:00 PM »
No, you are. Feel free to stop any time; you must be awfully dizzy.
Thanks for offer. For the sake of my health I'll stop ;)

Offline Daniel2:47

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #95 on: August 25, 2017, 07:30:25 AM »
I was listening to a podcast this morning and St James the Ascetic, a 4th century saint, was mentioned.

St James lived as an ascetic for many years, acquiring a reputation for holiness and the ability to perform miracles. On one occasion, a prostitute dressed as a nun came to him to tempt him, pretending that she required healing for a lump in her chest that would only be healed by his touch. With one hand, he touched the woman and with the other he held his hand over a fire. The prostitute, moved by his love for Christ and self-denial, left her lifestyle and became a nun.

Some time later, a local nobleman whose daughter was demon-possessed brought her to him for deliverance, and afterwards required her to live near to him, being afraid the demon may return. Sadly St James fell into sin with her and filled with shame murdered her to prevent his sin from becoming public. He despaired of his vocation and was on the way to returning to the world when a monk approached him and encouraged him to continue remaining a monk. He went to live in a tomb for many years, repenting earnestly of his sins and petitioning God to forgive him. Towards the end of his life, there was a drought in the land and the local bishop approached him to entreat God for rain. This prayer was answered and the ascetic was comforted from this sign that God had heard him.

St James the Ascetic's feast day in January 28th.

Mystagogy - St James the Ascetic

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #96 on: August 25, 2017, 12:28:22 PM »
I might have said "abominably" rather than "sadly," but, yes, that is a striking refutation of Ativan's claim.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #97 on: September 01, 2017, 11:58:26 AM »
Some time later, a local nobleman whose daughter was demon-possessed brought her to him for deliverance, and afterwards required her to live near to him, being afraid the demon may return. Sadly St James fell into sin with her and filled with shame murdered her to prevent his sin from becoming public. He despaired of his vocation and was on the way to returning to the world when a monk approached him and encouraged him to continue remaining a monk. He went to live in a tomb for many years, repenting earnestly of his sins and petitioning God to forgive him. Towards the end of his life, there was a drought in the land and the local bishop approached him to entreat God for rain. This prayer was answered and the ascetic was comforted from this sign that God had heard him.

St James the Ascetic's feast day in January 28th.

Mystagogy - St James the Ascetic
He had not reached sainthood by that time - it is that simple. He had not only reached sainthood but he had not reached even apatheia, freedom from passions.

Offline youssef

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #98 on: September 06, 2017, 03:41:29 AM »
So when will we know that someone has become a saint. At the end what is the point of your question.