Author Topic: Can a saint fall into sin?  (Read 2639 times)

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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2017, 07:31:23 AM »
The way I am reading your posts are like this:

At some point a person reaches a "nirvana" like state, that is, it is permanent. But instead of this being a Buddhist concept it is a Christian one, where once a living person obtains special gift from God, they never lose it. Permanent saints, WHILE LIVING and after repose of body

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Offline WPM

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2017, 08:07:38 AM »
More like a moral choice.
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Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #47 on: July 13, 2017, 05:00:52 PM »
The way I am reading your posts are like this:

At some point a person reaches a "nirvana" like state, that is, it is permanent. But instead of this being a Buddhist concept it is a Christian one, where once a living person obtains special gift from God, they never lose it. Permanent saints, WHILE LIVING and after repose of body
At some point, while alive, saints become gods by grace ("nirvana" is not Orthodox teaching) and they do not sin any more. This is clearly said by saints themselves. It is not important what we think of saint, what we think of them who they become. Important thing is what they say about sainthood. I have not read St Gregory Palamas, but the ones I've read (St Symeon New Theologian, St Gabriel of Mtskheta, St Silouan of Athos, St Joheph the Hesichast and books my Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos) there it is clearly expressed without ambiguity that saints sin no more. I will post several of their quotes soon on this issue. Even the video I've linked has it clearly where St Joseph the Hesichast teaches this. You can watch the video starting from 17th minute.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2017, 05:04:37 PM »
"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."

You really need citations if you're making a claim like this.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Kmon23

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2017, 08:34:15 AM »
Based on "My Elder Joseph the Hesychast" I believe Elder Joseph did not teach this. If you read the section dealing with the end of his life, he almost fell into temptation of not trusting God on the day of his repose, if I remember correctly.

And for all the language used by holy people describing how God protects them, I think you are misunderstanding that they lose the ability to sin. Because sometimes we ourselves choose to sin of our own accord. Adam and Eve were made completely innocent of the passions yet they fell.

And St. Silouan talks about how they had immense grace and the Holy Spirit but lost it all when he fell in sin.

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #50 on: July 14, 2017, 09:40:33 AM »
"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."

You really need citations if you're making a claim like this.
What you mean by that? Do you mean multiple citations of saints on theosis (as well as Gospel teaching) that God has become man so that man can become god? You need citations on this?

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #51 on: July 14, 2017, 10:10:57 AM »
Based on "My Elder Joseph the Hesychast" I believe Elder Joseph did not teach this. If you read the section dealing with the end of his life, he almost fell into temptation of not trusting God on the day of his repose, if I remember correctly.

And for all the language used by holy people describing how God protects them, I think you are misunderstanding that they lose the ability to sin. Because sometimes we ourselves choose to sin of our own accord. Adam and Eve were made completely innocent of the passions yet they fell.

And St. Silouan talks about how they had immense grace and the Holy Spirit but lost it all when he fell in sin.

Based on "My Elder Joseph the Hesychast" I believe Elder Joseph did not teach this. If you read the section dealing with the end of his life, he almost fell into temptation of not trusting God on the day of his repose, if I remember correctly.
Well, I did not deny that. Yes, St Joseph the hesichast says same thing. This is the stage when the Grace comes and goes in order to train the spiritual athlete. At this stage they are vulnerable to fall. But there comes a point when Grace permanently abides in saint and there's no more danger. There comes a point when saint lives in God and he has no more will of his own. At this point saint's will is "100 % in accord" with God's will. So, who is going to sin then? By what will?

What is your "definition" of sainthood? What does it mean to become god by Grace? 

Quote
Based on "My Elder Joseph the Hesychast" I believe Elder Joseph did not teach this. If you read the section dealing with the end of his life, he almost fell into temptation of not trusting God on the day of his repose, if I remember correctly.
Can you bring exact citation?

The Heights of Orthodox Spirituality - this is a talk by Joseph of Vatopedi based on, as I understand, that book "My Elder Joseph the Hesychast". In any case this is a teaching by St Joseph the hesichast.

At the 17th minute it is said clearly that "at the third stage, at the state of sanctification and supernatural state, Grace that was visiting from time to time to assist him (i.e. spiritual athlete) in spiritual battle now states permanently". And later, after a monk has been tried through this "hide and seek" game by the Grace, "he is perfected, tried and out of all danger".  It cannot be said more clearer than this: 1) At some point Grace permanently resides in him and 2) he is out of all danger.

Repeating my questions again: 1) who is going to sin/fall in a man in whom God dwells permanently? 2) What does it mean "a monk is out of all danger"?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #52 on: July 14, 2017, 12:01:31 PM »
"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."

You really need citations if you're making a claim like this.
What you mean by that? Do you mean multiple citations of saints on theosis (as well as Gospel teaching) that God has become man so that man can become god? You need citations on this?

How about just one commemorated saint writing or saying "I am become a god." You offered several, but I'll take one.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #53 on: July 14, 2017, 03:30:53 PM »
Why would God sanctify someone only to take it away later in life? God sees the future and would have never sanctified that person to begin with. Common sense. No?

If this were the mechanism of life, there would be no mortal life. God foresees all, controls all, and man has no role? -- that's contrary to our experience and the experience of the saints. It's also contrary to sound theology. Even Christ in the garden gives us a powerful example of what mortal life is really like in relationship to God -- one of human will relating to God's will and that relationship having its ups and downs.

Seeing all doesn't necessarily mean controlling all. Christ foresaw Judases deception and yet was still open to his forgiveness and allowed Judus and his will to persist. BTW: There are two ways one can become a saint. Gods direct decision which may or may not be known to us. As well as the Churches. Main stream saint were canonized by the churches authority. Other Saints like Peter, Panagia, John the forerunner and Moses were chosen directly by god. Than there are those saints that the  church doesn't recognize officially. Every day people with a lack luster life but just as important to the structure of the church. I don't know how important the structure of status is to God as it is to man.
  Great question to ask God. How important is status among saints?

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #54 on: July 14, 2017, 05:14:38 PM »
"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."

You really need citations if you're making a claim like this.
What you mean by that? Do you mean multiple citations of saints on theosis (as well as Gospel teaching) that God has become man so that man can become god? You need citations on this?

How about just one commemorated saint writing or saying "I am become a god." You offered several, but I'll take one.
How about St Paul saying "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me".

Or what did St Athanasius the great mean when he said "For He was made man that we might be made God"?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #55 on: July 14, 2017, 05:20:58 PM »
"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."

You really need citations if you're making a claim like this.
What you mean by that? Do you mean multiple citations of saints on theosis (as well as Gospel teaching) that God has become man so that man can become god? You need citations on this?

How about just one commemorated saint writing or saying "I am become a god." You offered several, but I'll take one.
How about St Paul saying "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me".

Or what did St Athanasius the great mean when he said "For He was made man that we might be made God"?

Nobody here is doubting that saints are Christians. What you said is

"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #56 on: July 14, 2017, 09:17:14 PM »
"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."

You really need citations if you're making a claim like this.
What you mean by that? Do you mean multiple citations of saints on theosis (as well as Gospel teaching) that God has become man so that man can become god? You need citations on this?

How about just one commemorated saint writing or saying "I am become a god." You offered several, but I'll take one.
How about St Paul saying "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me".

Or what did St Athanasius the great mean when he said "For He was made man that we might be made God"?
St. Paul also said:   For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.  Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

That seems to indicate that St. Paul had not attained theosis at least by the time he wrote Romans, correct?

St. Athanasius also never indicated that we might be made god in this life. He just said it could happen. I don't think either of these statements support your belief that a saint become sinless in this life.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 09:18:29 PM by TheTrisagion »
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Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #57 on: July 15, 2017, 08:20:46 AM »
"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."

You really need citations if you're making a claim like this.
What you mean by that? Do you mean multiple citations of saints on theosis (as well as Gospel teaching) that God has become man so that man can become god? You need citations on this?

How about just one commemorated saint writing or saying "I am become a god." You offered several, but I'll take one.
How about St Paul saying "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me".

Or what did St Athanasius the great mean when he said "For He was made man that we might be made God"?

Nobody here is doubting that saints are Christians. What you said is

"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."
You are an Orthodox Christian, right? Can you say the same thing that St Paul has said? Can you say "I no longer live, but Christ lives in me"?

And again: what is means when St Athanasius says: "For He was made man that we might be made God"?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #58 on: July 15, 2017, 12:26:33 PM »
"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."

You really need citations if you're making a claim like this.
What you mean by that? Do you mean multiple citations of saints on theosis (as well as Gospel teaching) that God has become man so that man can become god? You need citations on this?

How about just one commemorated saint writing or saying "I am become a god." You offered several, but I'll take one.
How about St Paul saying "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me".

Or what did St Athanasius the great mean when he said "For He was made man that we might be made God"?

Nobody here is doubting that saints are Christians. What you said is

"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."
You are an Orthodox Christian, right? Can you say the same thing that St Paul has said? Can you say "I no longer live, but Christ lives in me"?

And again: what is means when St Athanasius says: "For He was made man that we might be made God"?

Nobody here is doubting that saints are Christians. What you said is

"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2017, 08:52:37 AM »
"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."

You really need citations if you're making a claim like this.
What you mean by that? Do you mean multiple citations of saints on theosis (as well as Gospel teaching) that God has become man so that man can become god? You need citations on this?

How about just one commemorated saint writing or saying "I am become a god." You offered several, but I'll take one.
How about St Paul saying "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me".

Or what did St Athanasius the great mean when he said "For He was made man that we might be made God"?
St. Paul also said:   For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.  Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

That seems to indicate that St. Paul had not attained theosis at least by the time he wrote Romans, correct?
It seems to me that in this chapter St Paul at the time of its writing (he was already full of Holy Spirit which is evident in chapters before and after 7) talks about a sinner in general (which could have been St Paul as well before his conversion but not at the time he wrote romans) under the Mosaic law.

I’ve tried to find overview of patristic exegesis regarding this chapter and it does appear that early fathers (like St John Chrysostom, St Gregory of Nyssa, Origen and others) taught so. Do you know of any saints who taught otherwise? I’ll be more than glad to look into that more deeply.
Quote
St. Athanasius also never indicated that we might be made god in this life. He just said it could happen.
Men are men in this life, not in the next one. Once man dies he is not man any more. Saint speaks about theosis of man not the theosis of man’s soul after death. Besides, it seems armchair theologians had such interpretation of man’s theosis in the past. This is probably why St Symeon New Theologian had to rebuke those who refuted theosis of man in this life.

Here’s what he said:
Quote
Let us harken to Christ Himself to see if a man can behold God: “Blessed are pure in heart for they shall see God”. What would you say about this? I know what you will respond: Yes, those pure in heart will indeed see God but not in this life but in the life to come. You say this because you can’t believe in the Grace that God has given us as a gift to each one of us. You are not even trying to receive this Grace and your mind and heart is impatiently looking forward to future life. Tell me dear, how will you be able to see God in the next life if you have not seen him in this life? If God has said that only pure heart can contemplate Him, then each one of us will behold Him once our hearts have been purified. If you ever manage to clean your heart, trust me, you will see God immediately and you will never doubt truthfulness of my words. But you have never thought to purify your heart. How could you then believe it is really possible to see God. Tell me: is it possible to see God in this life? If you say God can be contemplated only after we die, then you have to agree that one can have repentant heart only after death. Thus we could never contemplate God neither before nor after death since after death we can’t practice virtues in order to clean out hearts. God Jesus Christ Says: “Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.” Which life Does Lord Mean: this one of the one to come? Of course He Means present life since we can keep His Commandments only in this life and based on this He Will Give us The Grace and Save us.

I’m reading St Symeon’s discourses now and there are passages where he speaks directly and indirectly indicate man’s theosis in this life not next one.

Quote
I don't think either of these statements support your belief that a saint become sinless in this life.
It is not my belief. It is what saints teach.

The Heights of Orthodox Spirituality - this is a talk by Joseph of Vatopedi based on, as I understand, that book "My Elder Joseph the Hesychast". In any case this is a teaching by St Joseph the hesichast.

At the 17th minute it is said clearly that "at the third stage, at the state of sanctification and supernatural state, Grace that was visiting from time to time to assist him (i.e. spiritual athlete) in spiritual battle now states permanently". And later, after a monk has been tried through this "hide and seek" game by the Grace, "he is perfected, tried and out of all danger".  It cannot be said more clearer than this: 1) At some point Grace permanently resides in him and 2) he is out of all danger.

1) who is going to sin/fall in a man in whom God dwells permanently? 2) What does it mean "a monk is out of all danger"?

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2017, 09:01:23 AM »
Men are not men after death? What are they? I've never heard that one before...
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Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #61 on: July 17, 2017, 09:13:19 AM »
Men are not men after death? What are they? I've never heard that one before...
I don't what man is after death. I know that man has body and the soul and at the death they separate.

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #62 on: July 17, 2017, 09:14:23 AM »
In any case, when saints speak of theosis of man they mean theois in this life. They are quite clear on this.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #63 on: July 17, 2017, 10:52:48 AM »
Men are not men after death? What are they? I've never heard that one before...
I don't what man is after death. I know that man has body and the soul and at the death they separate.

You might want to stop telling us all about it, then, and start learning something.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 10:53:09 AM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #64 on: July 17, 2017, 10:53:52 AM »
In any case, when saints speak of theosis of man they mean theois in this life. They are quite clear on this.

Theosis is the name of a process.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #65 on: July 17, 2017, 11:19:35 AM »
Men are not men after death? What are they? I've never heard that one before...
I don't what man is after death. I know that man has body and the soul and at the death they separate.

You might want to stop telling us all about it, then, and start learning something.
I don't claim what I don't know, what was never revealed to me. If you claim such a thing your understanding would've been in accord with saints teachings.

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #66 on: July 17, 2017, 11:23:27 AM »
In any case, when saints speak of theosis of man they mean theois in this life. They are quite clear on this.

Theosis is the name of a process.
How is that? Man becoming god by God's grace is beyond all notion of time (refer to fr Sophrony Sakharov in his book on st Silouan of Athos). Process is something characterized in time. Have you been part of that process?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #67 on: July 17, 2017, 11:55:05 AM »
In any case, when saints speak of theosis of man they mean theois in this life. They are quite clear on this.

Theosis is the name of a process.
How is that? Man becoming god by God's grace is beyond all notion of time (refer to fr Sophrony Sakharov in his book on st Silouan of Athos). Process is something characterized in time. Have you been part of that process?

Now the saints who are alive are not in time?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #68 on: July 17, 2017, 12:09:21 PM »
No offense, but I see a number of statements saying how clear the Fathers are, but in the quotes you put forward, it doesn't seem all that clear to me at all. On the other hand, there are many Scriptural references and patriotic writings referencing we struggle against sin until death. I've never heard of anything where anyone becomes so divinized in this life that I they no longer sin. The Theotokos, perhaps, but not all the saints.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 12:10:00 PM by TheTrisagion »
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Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #69 on: July 17, 2017, 12:17:51 PM »
In any case, when saints speak of theosis of man they mean theois in this life. They are quite clear on this.

Theosis is the name of a process.
How is that? Man becoming god by God's grace is beyond all notion of time (refer to fr Sophrony Sakharov in his book on st Silouan of Athos). Process is something characterized in time. Have you been part of that process?

Now the saints who are alive are not in time?
From our standpoint yes, limited man. What "state" they are in is beyond our imagination.

What is theosis? Can you talk about that?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #70 on: July 17, 2017, 12:19:57 PM »
In any case, when saints speak of theosis of man they mean theois in this life. They are quite clear on this.

Theosis is the name of a process.
How is that? Man becoming god by God's grace is beyond all notion of time (refer to fr Sophrony Sakharov in his book on st Silouan of Athos). Process is something characterized in time. Have you been part of that process?

Now the saints who are alive are not in time?
From our standpoint yes, limited man. What "state" they are in is beyond our imagination.

So now they are not only incapable of sin but of reading the clock. You really need to explain what justifies your claims.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #71 on: July 17, 2017, 12:26:34 PM »
No offense, but I see a number of statements saying how clear the Fathers are, but in the quotes you put forward, it doesn't seem all that clear to me at all. On the other hand, there are many Scriptural references and patriotic writings referencing we struggle against sin until death. I've never heard of anything where anyone becomes so divinized in this life that I they no longer sin. The Theotokos, perhaps, but not all the saints.
If it is not clear than I must be misinterpreting them which is quite possible.

Could you watch that video I've linked above and explain me if I misinterpreted St Joseph Hesychast?

Quote
this is a talk by Joseph of Vatopedi based on, as I understand, that book "My Elder Joseph the Hesychast". In any case this is a teaching by St Joseph the hesichast.

At the 17th minute it is said clearly that "at the third stage, at the state of sanctification and supernatural state, Grace that was visiting from time to time to assist him (i.e. spiritual athlete) in spiritual battle now states permanently". And later, after a monk has been tried through this "hide and seek" game by the Grace, "he is perfected, tried and out of all danger".  It cannot be said more clearer than this: 1) At some point Grace permanently resides in him and 2) he is out of all danger.

1) who is going to sin/fall in a man in whom God dwells permanently? 2) What does it mean "a monk is out of all danger"?

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #72 on: July 17, 2017, 12:28:24 PM »
No offense, but I see a number of statements saying how clear the Fathers are, but in the quotes you put forward, it doesn't seem all that clear to me at all. On the other hand, there are many Scriptural references and patriotic writings referencing we struggle against sin until death. I've never heard of anything where anyone becomes so divinized in this life that I they no longer sin. The Theotokos, perhaps, but not all the saints.
If it is not clear than I must be misinterpreting them which is quite possible.

Could you watch that video I've linked above and explain me if I misinterpreted St Joseph Hesychast?

Quote
this is a talk by Joseph of Vatopedi based on, as I understand, that book "My Elder Joseph the Hesychast". In any case this is a teaching by St Joseph the hesichast.

At the 17th minute it is said clearly that "at the third stage, at the state of sanctification and supernatural state, Grace that was visiting from time to time to assist him (i.e. spiritual athlete) in spiritual battle now states permanently". And later, after a monk has been tried through this "hide and seek" game by the Grace, "he is perfected, tried and out of all danger".  It cannot be said more clearer than this: 1) At some point Grace permanently resides in him and 2) he is out of all danger.

1) who is going to sin/fall in a man in whom God dwells permanently? 2) What does it mean "a monk is out of all danger"?

Is there more to the video than "the 17th minute"?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #73 on: July 17, 2017, 12:33:28 PM »
In any case, when saints speak of theosis of man they mean theois in this life. They are quite clear on this.

Theosis is the name of a process.
How is that? Man becoming god by God's grace is beyond all notion of time (refer to fr Sophrony Sakharov in his book on st Silouan of Athos). Process is something characterized in time. Have you been part of that process?

Now the saints who are alive are not in time?
From our standpoint yes, limited man. What "state" they are in is beyond our imagination.

So now they are not only incapable of sin but of reading the clock. You really need to explain what justifies your claims.
:D
Let's leave that clock reading please. I don't want to delve into something that I have no part in.

Quote
this is a talk by Joseph of Vatopedi based on, as I understand, that book "My Elder Joseph the Hesychast". In any case this is a teaching by St Joseph the hesichast.

At the 17th minute it is said clearly that "at the third stage, at the state of sanctification and supernatural state, Grace that was visiting from time to time to assist him (i.e. spiritual athlete) in spiritual battle now states permanently". And later, after a monk has been tried through this "hide and seek" game by the Grace, "he is perfected, tried and out of all danger".  It cannot be said more clearer than this: 1) At some point Grace permanently resides in him and 2) he is out of all danger.

1) who is going to sin/fall in a man in whom God dwells permanently? 2) What does it mean "a monk is out of all danger"?

You can watch the whole video if you want to, very interesting talk. I just wanted to spare you time. The elder says there comes a time when God dwells permanently in a man and he is out of all danger. What does he mean by that?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #74 on: July 17, 2017, 01:26:30 PM »
In any case, when saints speak of theosis of man they mean theois in this life. They are quite clear on this.

Theosis is the name of a process.
How is that? Man becoming god by God's grace is beyond all notion of time (refer to fr Sophrony Sakharov in his book on st Silouan of Athos). Process is something characterized in time. Have you been part of that process?

Now the saints who are alive are not in time?
From our standpoint yes, limited man. What "state" they are in is beyond our imagination.

So now they are not only incapable of sin but of reading the clock. You really need to explain what justifies your claims.
:D
Let's leave that clock reading please. I don't want to delve into something that I have no part in.

Then maybe you shouldn't make claims about something you now want "no part in."

Quote
Quote
this is a talk by Joseph of Vatopedi based on, as I understand, that book "My Elder Joseph the Hesychast". In any case this is a teaching by St Joseph the hesichast.

At the 17th minute it is said clearly that "at the third stage, at the state of sanctification and supernatural state, Grace that was visiting from time to time to assist him (i.e. spiritual athlete) in spiritual battle now states permanently". And later, after a monk has been tried through this "hide and seek" game by the Grace, "he is perfected, tried and out of all danger".  It cannot be said more clearer than this: 1) At some point Grace permanently resides in him and 2) he is out of all danger.

1) who is going to sin/fall in a man in whom God dwells permanently? 2) What does it mean "a monk is out of all danger"?

You can watch the whole video if you want to, very interesting talk. I just wanted to spare you time. The elder says there comes a time when God dwells permanently in a man and he is out of all danger. What does he mean by that?

My point is, what does he say he means by that? Why are you reducing a half-hour video presentation to one minute?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #75 on: July 17, 2017, 07:20:36 PM »
 
Quote
Quote
this is a talk by Joseph of Vatopedi based on, as I understand, that book "My Elder Joseph the Hesychast". In any case this is a teaching by St Joseph the hesichast.

At the 17th minute it is said clearly that "at the third stage, at the state of sanctification and supernatural state, Grace that was visiting from time to time to assist him (i.e. spiritual athlete) in spiritual battle now states permanently". And later, after a monk has been tried through this "hide and seek" game by the Grace, "he is perfected, tried and out of all danger".  It cannot be said more clearer than this: 1) At some point Grace permanently resides in him and 2) he is out of all danger.

1) who is going to sin/fall in a man in whom God dwells permanently? 2) What does it mean "a monk is out of all danger"?

You can watch the whole video if you want to, very interesting talk. I just wanted to spare you time. The elder says there comes a time when God dwells permanently in a man and he is out of all danger. What does he mean by that?

My point is, what does he say he means by that? Why are you reducing a half-hour video presentation to one minute?
As I said:
Quote
You can watch the whole video if you want to, very interesting talk. I just wanted to spare you time. The elder says there comes a time when God dwells permanently in a man and he is out of all danger. What does he mean by that?
Or you can read "Monastic Wisdom: The letters of Elder Joseph the Hesychast", chapter XI starting on page 379. It's only 2 pages. In both cases you will see that by perfecting Grace (he also calls it third or supernatural state) a spiritual athlete is perfected, Grace abides in him permanently and that man sins no more.

Elsewhere he tells one of his spiritual children which sins are forgiven to him and which are not. Then again he says once he dies he will be with God.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #76 on: July 17, 2017, 07:22:11 PM »
 
Quote
Quote
this is a talk by Joseph of Vatopedi based on, as I understand, that book "My Elder Joseph the Hesychast". In any case this is a teaching by St Joseph the hesichast.

At the 17th minute it is said clearly that "at the third stage, at the state of sanctification and supernatural state, Grace that was visiting from time to time to assist him (i.e. spiritual athlete) in spiritual battle now states permanently". And later, after a monk has been tried through this "hide and seek" game by the Grace, "he is perfected, tried and out of all danger".  It cannot be said more clearer than this: 1) At some point Grace permanently resides in him and 2) he is out of all danger.

1) who is going to sin/fall in a man in whom God dwells permanently? 2) What does it mean "a monk is out of all danger"?

You can watch the whole video if you want to, very interesting talk. I just wanted to spare you time. The elder says there comes a time when God dwells permanently in a man and he is out of all danger. What does he mean by that?

My point is, what does he say he means by that? Why are you reducing a half-hour video presentation to one minute?
As I said:
Quote
You can watch the whole video if you want to, very interesting talk. I just wanted to spare you time. The elder says there comes a time when God dwells permanently in a man and he is out of all danger. What does he mean by that?
Or you can read "Monastic Wisdom: The letters of Elder Joseph the Hesychast", chapter XI starting on page 379. It's only 2 pages. In both cases you will see that by perfecting Grace (he also calls it third or supernatural state) a spiritual athlete is perfected, Grace abides in him permanently and that man sins no more.

Elsewhere he tells one of his spiritual children which sins are forgiven to him and which are not. Then again he says once he dies he will be with God.

Then why did he write 400+?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #77 on: July 17, 2017, 07:34:39 PM »
Don't take exaggerations or hyperbole as rigorous theological fact. Sometimes people say things when in love or spellbound by grace that says more about their happiness and hope/faith and psychological disposition than it does how things actually work.

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #78 on: July 18, 2017, 01:06:24 PM »
Greetings

Is there any possibility that saint will fall into sin?

Some of the clerics (or maybe most of them) say saints are as much humans as we are and they are as much prone to sin as we are. Where did this teaching come from? To me, reading on this issue, it is clear that saint of God will never fall. They have been sanctified and have become the permanent  temple of Holy Spirit. After this they are protected by God and will never fall into sin. This is written even by Saint John the Theologian in his first epistle as well. I have read this also in writings of prominent saints of the past (maybe not the best choice of the wording) as well as saints of todays. In short, saints clearly teach that a saint of God will never fall. So, why many priests and bishops teach the opposite?

It is possible to fall even in heaven in sin, since many holy angels of Lord fall. But in earth is same I guess. So for the saints in earth there is no need to be about to never done sin. Because sin is not something we do every day. It is something that we made only by our free will. When we chose to do it with our will and with all our mind that this is evil.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 01:06:57 PM by Indocern »

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #79 on: July 18, 2017, 01:09:15 PM »
^ Please don't listen to this guy.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #80 on: July 18, 2017, 01:57:46 PM »
Well if you believe we do sin every day, then I wonder why we still believe in God? God forced Adam out from heaven for only one sin no matter how much he cry for this sin, there was not even a little mercy. So if we are called christians and we do sins every day we will be casted to death because He will look at our sins with anger. If the sins was only when we do something very wrong then it will be more normal for God to keep us alive. But sin is to do something that is against our Lord in whom we trust.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 01:59:07 PM by Indocern »

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #81 on: July 18, 2017, 01:59:51 PM »
Well if you believe we do sin every day, then I wonder why we still believe in God? God forced Adam out from heaven for only one sin no matter how much he cry for this sin, there was not even a little mercy.

There was boundless mercy. Adam and Eve were preserved, they flourished, and were ultimately saved. The human race also.

Quote
So if we are called christians and we do sins every day we will be casted to death because he will look at our sins with anger. If the sins was only when we do something very wrong then it will be more normal for God to keep us alive. But sin is to do something that is against our Lord in whom we trust.

You should read up on something called "salvation" and someone called "Jesus Christ."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #82 on: July 18, 2017, 02:16:53 PM »
Well if you believe we do sin every day, then I wonder why we still believe in God? God forced Adam out from heaven for only one sin no matter how much he cry for this sin, there was not even a little mercy.

There was boundless mercy. Adam and Eve were preserved, they flourished, and were ultimately saved. The human race also.

Quote
So if we are called christians and we do sins every day we will be casted to death because he will look at our sins with anger. If the sins was only when we do something very wrong then it will be more normal for God to keep us alive. But sin is to do something that is against our Lord in whom we trust.

You should read up on something called "salvation" and someone called "Jesus Christ."

But they lived before the fall in Heaven. There is no pain and eternal happiness. They even was married there. Now we see that isn't possible anymore to live there married. So if heaven was our first home. They was forced out of it. And God did what He warned. That if they do that they will surely die. And they come to earth and died. It isn't more good to live forever in heaven married, as first they was? Maybe it happen because they wanted to be like God. Satan just told them that they will be like gods. But was this better than Heaven?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 02:18:12 PM by Indocern »

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #83 on: July 18, 2017, 02:39:37 PM »
Yes, it would have been good had they remained in Paradise as companions of God. But what you said is that God showed them no mercy, "not even a little." You're changing your point.

Yet, believe it or not, our final end by salvation is going to be superior to the experience in Paradise.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Indocern

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #84 on: July 18, 2017, 03:15:53 PM »
Yet, believe it or not, our final end by salvation is going to be superior to the experience in Paradise.

Yes but the pain on earth are not worth it. If they were asked me: "Do you accept to have this pain on earth and go to heaven" I will instantly deny. I will even curse them as ungodly.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 03:16:48 PM by Indocern »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #85 on: July 18, 2017, 03:22:56 PM »
^ Please don't listen to this gentleman.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #86 on: July 18, 2017, 06:45:52 PM »
Yet, believe it or not, our final end by salvation is going to be superior to the experience in Paradise.

Yes but the pain on earth are not worth it. If they were asked me: "Do you accept to have this pain on earth and go to heaven" I will instantly deny. I will even curse them as ungodly.
80 or so years of pain seems like a paltry sum to pay for endless bliss.
God bless!

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #87 on: July 19, 2017, 06:18:23 AM »
Yet, believe it or not, our final end by salvation is going to be superior to the experience in Paradise.

Yes but the pain on earth are not worth it. If they were asked me: "Do you accept to have this pain on earth and go to heaven" I will instantly deny. I will even curse them as ungodly.
80 or so years of pain seems like a paltry sum to pay for endless bliss.

Yes, if the person have spiritual and physical strenght for this case. Some cases are end by death when the person take too much pain. But I believe there is someone who can prevent people to have pain forever, no matter in hell they said they had it.

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #88 on: July 22, 2017, 01:24:00 AM »
From Philokalia:

Quote
The Declaration of the Holy Mountain (also known as 'The Hagioritic Tome': Greek text, ed. P.K. Christou, vol. ii, pp. 567-78). This short statement of the hesychast standpoint, drafted by St Gregory Palamas in 1340, is of particular importance because it bears the signatures of leading Athonite monks and also of the local hierarch, the Bishop of Hierissos in Chalkidiki. This makes it clear that Palamas is expressing, not merely his own personal opinion, but the accepted teaching of the Holy Mountain. Palamas emphasizes the eschatological character of the divine light, which is a foretaste and anticipation of the glory of the age to come. The monks who bear witness to the uncreated light fulfill a prophetic role within the Church: just as the Old Testament prophets foretold Christ's first coming at the incarnation, so the monks as the prophets of the new covenant point forward to His second coming (Prologue). Here as elsewhere Palamas expresses a holistic vision of the human person: the body is glorified along with the soul (§ 4.). Our theosis is in no sense merely symbolical or metaphorical: it is a genuine and specific reality, a pure gift of grace experienced even in this present life (§ 2).

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #89 on: July 22, 2017, 01:43:54 AM »
From Philokalia:

Quote
The Declaration of the Holy Mountain (also known as 'The Hagioritic Tome': Greek text, ed. P.K. Christou, vol. ii, pp. 567-78). This short statement of the hesychast standpoint, drafted by St Gregory Palamas in 1340, is of particular importance because it bears the signatures of leading Athonite monks and also of the local hierarch, the Bishop of Hierissos in Chalkidiki. This makes it clear that Palamas is expressing, not merely his own personal opinion, but the accepted teaching of the Holy Mountain. Palamas emphasizes the eschatological character of the divine light, which is a foretaste and anticipation of the glory of the age to come. The monks who bear witness to the uncreated light fulfill a prophetic role within the Church: just as the Old Testament prophets foretold Christ's first coming at the incarnation, so the monks as the prophets of the new covenant point forward to His second coming (Prologue). Here as elsewhere Palamas expresses a holistic vision of the human person: the body is glorified along with the soul (§ 4.). Our theosis is in no sense merely symbolical or metaphorical: it is a genuine and specific reality, a pure gift of grace experienced even in this present life (§ 2).

Perhaps you have trouble with grammar. We touched on this in an earlier exchange. In this case, one could as well say, "Our perfection is in no sense merely symbolical ... it is a ... reality" etc. This would in no way require, or even imply, that a subject undergoing perfection is perfect. A process comprises degrees, time, and these do not make it any less "a reality."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy