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Offline ativan

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Can a saint fall into sin?
« on: June 15, 2017, 06:15:22 PM »
Greetings

Is there any possibility that saint will fall into sin?

Some of the clerics (or maybe most of them) say saints are as much humans as we are and they are as much prone to sin as we are. Where did this teaching come from? To me, reading on this issue, it is clear that saint of God will never fall. They have been sanctified and have become the permanent  temple of Holy Spirit. After this they are protected by God and will never fall into sin. This is written even by Saint John the Theologian in his first epistle as well. I have read this also in writings of prominent saints of the past (maybe not the best choice of the wording) as well as saints of todays. In short, saints clearly teach that a saint of God will never fall. So, why many priests and bishops teach the opposite?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2017, 06:16:42 PM »
When does one become a saint? 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2017, 06:29:07 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint. It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2017, 06:37:25 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint.

Then how can anyone here answer your question?  We are not saints. 

Quote
It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.

Which writings?  Which saints? 

"Judge none blessed before his death: for a man shall be known in his children."  Sirach 11.28
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2017, 06:46:20 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint.

Then how can anyone here answer your question?  We are not saints.
Then we can't answer anything regarding God, Heaven, Hell, Theology. We are not saints. How do we know all this?

Quote
Quote
It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.

Which writings?  Which saints? 

"Judge none blessed before his death: for a man shall be known in his children."  Sirach 11.28
St John the Theologian:

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 1 John 3:6

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:18

Also St Symeon the new theologian, St Gabriel of Mtkheta, St Joseph the hesichast.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2017, 12:52:36 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint. It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.
written before they were saints, as that only happens when they have fallen asleep in the Lord.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2017, 01:37:30 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint.

Then how can anyone here answer your question?  We are not saints.
Then we can't answer anything regarding God, Heaven, Hell, Theology. We are not saints. How do we know all this?

I guess that's the problem I see with the standard I understand you to be applying.  For you, a saint is someone who has achieved or been granted a particular status that is permanent and abiding, and this has particular consequences (e.g., inability to sin, ability to know/teach). 

Yet, when we read the lives of the saints, what we see is that they had an even clearer perception of their own sinfulness and weakness than we might have about ours.  We see them confessing sins to their spiritual fathers or confessors and receiving Holy Communion with repentance.  We have no indication that their confessors refused them absolution because "they can't sin", and it would be impious to believe that they made up sins to confess because they actually had none (in fact, that'd be a sin).  We see them practicing vigilance over their lives out of an awareness that they are liable to fall to some temptation or another at any moment, no matter how close to God they are, and they don't want to fall away.  They refer to themselves in language that evokes the sense that they understand themselves to be sinners. 

We know them to be saints only after they die, after we see the outcome of their lives, after the Church recognises the holiness of their lives.  But until they die in holiness (i.e., are born into eternal life), it is possible for them to fall away, or to fall away and to repent again.  The sanctifying action of the Holy Spirit in the life of a person does not impede or negate their free will.       

Quote
Quote
Quote
It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.

Which writings?  Which saints? 

"Judge none blessed before his death: for a man shall be known in his children."  Sirach 11.28
St John the Theologian:

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 1 John 3:6

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:18

Also St Symeon the new theologian, St Gabriel of Mtkheta, St Joseph the hesichast.

With regard to the Scripture passages, my sense is that there is in some modern schools of thought a tendency to interpret Scripture through a monastic prism, such that "sanctification" is tied up with notions of stages of purification and illumination, the various disciplines involved in progressing along the path, etc.  While this may be a legitimate and useful way to apply Scriptural teaching to the lives of monks and nuns, I think it is an error to take this as the only or even the primary meaning. 

For starters, your passages from St John refer to being "born of God" or "begotten of God", and we know from his other writings that this concept is linked to baptism.  In baptism, we die and are raised with Christ, given new life through the Holy Spirit who cries within us "Abba, Father", and we receive the Body and Blood of Christ, becoming one with God.  That is literally theosis.  But when we think of theosis, we often think of it in monastic terms, as the culmination of a long journey along the path of asceticism and renunciation.  Obviously that's also part of it, both for monks and for laypeople, but we cannot regard that as our primary conception of theosis without emptying the sacraments of their life and power.  So the proper interpretation of passages like those and others has to be something more than the very narrow interpretation you seem to take for granted. 

I cannot say I have read St Symeon or St Gabriel widely, but I have read enough of and about Elder Joseph the Hesychast to say that I would disagree with an interpretation of his life and thought that would claim that "saints" are incapable of sinning while living in this world. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2017, 01:41:37 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint. It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.
written before they were saints, as that only happens when they have fallen asleep in the Lord.

Correct.  And I think this is an important point to keep in mind.  Too often, we ourselves or others will take writings of saints as if they are some sort of quasi-scripture, sharing some degree of inspiration by the Holy Spirit or otherwise "infallible".  But those writings were written while they were in this world struggling for their salvation and sanctification like we (hopefully) are.  We can recognise that they were/are holier in this world than we are in this world, but still, they were/are in this world when they wrote what they wrote, and so we need to be careful even if we feel we can generally have confidence in what we read. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2017, 02:04:23 PM »
Greetings

Is there any possibility that saint will fall into sin? ...

Is there any possibility that a saint will not?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2017, 02:10:18 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint.

Then how can anyone here answer your question?  We are not saints.
Then we can't answer anything regarding God, Heaven, Hell, Theology. We are not saints. How do we know all this?

Quote
Quote
It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.

Which writings?  Which saints? 

"Judge none blessed before his death: for a man shall be known in his children."  Sirach 11.28
St John the Theologian:

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 1 John 3:6

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:18

Also St Symeon the new theologian, St Gabriel of Mtkheta, St Joseph the hesichast.

If we are "abiding," i.e., standing fast in Christ, then, no, we do not err, as there is no error in Christ. However, standing our ground in Christ is a state from which mortals slip, and outside Christ there is inevitably error. All mortals err, as we are mortal, and yet Christ cannot err, and we are invited to abide in him. I don't think the Beloved Disciple meant more than this. It is much the same as the Apostle's image of a knight who "stands fast in the Lord and the power of his might" (last half of Eph ch 6).

That said, we do believe that there have been Theophoroi, those who are entirely possessed by the Holy Spirit while yet in this life. Such saints are not all saints. And such saints at sometime in their lives did err and recover, the mortal condition.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2017, 02:11:21 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint. It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.
written before they were saints, as that only happens when they have fallen asleep in the Lord.

Correct.  And I think this is an important point to keep in mind.  Too often, we ourselves or others will take writings of saints as if they are some sort of quasi-scripture, sharing some degree of inspiration by the Holy Spirit or otherwise "infallible".  But those writings were written while they were in this world struggling for their salvation and sanctification like we (hopefully) are.  We can recognise that they were/are holier in this world than we are in this world, but still, they were/are in this world when they wrote what they wrote, and so we need to be careful even if we feel we can generally have confidence in what we read.

I get were your saying with regards to infallibility, but I'm not sure I can get on board with the notion that someone's only a saint when he dies.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2017, 02:20:28 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint. It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.
written before they were saints, as that only happens when they have fallen asleep in the Lord.

Correct.  And I think this is an important point to keep in mind.  Too often, we ourselves or others will take writings of saints as if they are some sort of quasi-scripture, sharing some degree of inspiration by the Holy Spirit or otherwise "infallible".  But those writings were written while they were in this world struggling for their salvation and sanctification like we (hopefully) are.  We can recognise that they were/are holier in this world than we are in this world, but still, they were/are in this world when they wrote what they wrote, and so we need to be careful even if we feel we can generally have confidence in what we read.

I get were your saying with regards to infallibility, but I'm not sure I can get on board with the notion that someone's only a saint when he dies.

This gets into Beebert territory. Surely a commemorated Saint was going to be one before he died, even before he was born. Here on the mortal plane, however, time is the reliable revelator.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2017, 02:30:48 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint. It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.
written before they were saints, as that only happens when they have fallen asleep in the Lord.

Correct.  And I think this is an important point to keep in mind.  Too often, we ourselves or others will take writings of saints as if they are some sort of quasi-scripture, sharing some degree of inspiration by the Holy Spirit or otherwise "infallible".  But those writings were written while they were in this world struggling for their salvation and sanctification like we (hopefully) are.  We can recognise that they were/are holier in this world than we are in this world, but still, they were/are in this world when they wrote what they wrote, and so we need to be careful even if we feel we can generally have confidence in what we read.

I get were your saying with regards to infallibility, but I'm not sure I can get on board with the notion that someone's only a saint when he dies.

This gets into Beebert territory. Surely a commemorated Saint was going to be one before he died, even before he was born. Here on the mortal plane, however, time is the reliable revelator.

The idea here seems to be that the writings of the saints were "written before they are saints" and can therefore, I guess, be set aside if we find something disagreeable. Not, of course, that we should adopt an uncritical approach to these writings but "well, he wasn't a saint yet!" is a problematic approach to take.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2017, 02:51:39 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint. It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.
written before they were saints, as that only happens when they have fallen asleep in the Lord.

Correct.  And I think this is an important point to keep in mind.  Too often, we ourselves or others will take writings of saints as if they are some sort of quasi-scripture, sharing some degree of inspiration by the Holy Spirit or otherwise "infallible".  But those writings were written while they were in this world struggling for their salvation and sanctification like we (hopefully) are.  We can recognise that they were/are holier in this world than we are in this world, but still, they were/are in this world when they wrote what they wrote, and so we need to be careful even if we feel we can generally have confidence in what we read.

I get were your saying with regards to infallibility, but I'm not sure I can get on board with the notion that someone's only a saint when he dies.

This gets into Beebert territory. Surely a commemorated Saint was going to be one before he died, even before he was born. Here on the mortal plane, however, time is the reliable revelator.

The idea here seems to be that the writings of the saints were "written before they are saints" and can therefore, I guess, be set aside if we find something disagreeable. Not, of course, that we should adopt an uncritical approach to these writings but "well, he wasn't a saint yet!" is a problematic approach to take.

How is the reverse less problematic, in your opinion?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2017, 02:56:43 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint. It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.
written before they were saints, as that only happens when they have fallen asleep in the Lord.

Correct.  And I think this is an important point to keep in mind.  Too often, we ourselves or others will take writings of saints as if they are some sort of quasi-scripture, sharing some degree of inspiration by the Holy Spirit or otherwise "infallible".  But those writings were written while they were in this world struggling for their salvation and sanctification like we (hopefully) are.  We can recognise that they were/are holier in this world than we are in this world, but still, they were/are in this world when they wrote what they wrote, and so we need to be careful even if we feel we can generally have confidence in what we read.

I get were your saying with regards to infallibility, but I'm not sure I can get on board with the notion that someone's only a saint when he dies.

This gets into Beebert territory. Surely a commemorated Saint was going to be one before he died, even before he was born. Here on the mortal plane, however, time is the reliable revelator.

The idea here seems to be that the writings of the saints were "written before they are saints" and can therefore, I guess, be set aside if we find something disagreeable. Not, of course, that we should adopt an uncritical approach to these writings but "well, he wasn't a saint yet!" is a problematic approach to take.

How is the reverse less problematic, in your opinion?

The reverse being what? That the saints are infallible? Not my position.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2017, 05:56:41 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint. It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.
written before they were saints, as that only happens when they have fallen asleep in the Lord.

Correct.  And I think this is an important point to keep in mind.  Too often, we ourselves or others will take writings of saints as if they are some sort of quasi-scripture, sharing some degree of inspiration by the Holy Spirit or otherwise "infallible".  But those writings were written while they were in this world struggling for their salvation and sanctification like we (hopefully) are.  We can recognise that they were/are holier in this world than we are in this world, but still, they were/are in this world when they wrote what they wrote, and so we need to be careful even if we feel we can generally have confidence in what we read.

I get were your saying with regards to infallibility, but I'm not sure I can get on board with the notion that someone's only a saint when he dies.

I don't mean to say that we can't recognise sanctity in a person while they are alive among us on earth and regard them as saintly (or even as a saint, full stop).  But until they die, they are still capable of being tempted, of falling away, etc.  I understood the OP to be claiming that a person on earth can achieve sanctity by the grace of God and somehow that gets "locked in" so that it becomes a permanent state from which there can be no change for the worse because God prevents any such change from happening. 

If you disagree with that, I'd be interested in knowing your reasons.  Perhaps I'm not being clear. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2017, 07:07:32 PM »
The idea here seems to be that the writings of the saints were "written before they are saints" and can therefore, I guess, be set aside if we find something disagreeable. Not, of course, that we should adopt an uncritical approach to these writings but "well, he wasn't a saint yet!" is a problematic approach to take.

It is, and that is not what I intended.  I'm arguing that the writings of the saints cannot be read uncritically.  St Augustine is a saint, for example, but his sanctity is not a guarantee of the absolute doctrinal correctness of all his writings.  We should be able to venerate the saint and accept his body of writing in general terms as worthy of pious respect.  At the same time, we need to be careful not to assume uncritically that everything therein is 100% reliable for all time, or that we can just imitate everything recounted within them as if it also applies to us, etc.  I think most of us accept that when it comes to St Augustine, but I extend it to all the saints.  If St John Chrysostom's works have less issues than St Augustine's, for example, still we should engage with them in the same way. 

Again, I'm approaching this in light of my response to the idea in the OP that saints on earth, upon sanctification, are permanently locked into that state, thus making them reliable and inerrant guides and teachers.  I hope that makes things clearer.         
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2017, 12:05:35 AM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint. It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.
written before they were saints, as that only happens when they have fallen asleep in the Lord.
Can you provide one patristic quote from a saint where it says man becomes saint after passing away? On the other hand, there are multiple quotes where saints say we are called to become saints in this life.

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2017, 12:08:50 AM »
Greetings

Is there any possibility that saint will fall into sin? ...

Is there any possibility that a saint will not?
Based on saints' teachings that is the only possibility.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2017, 12:12:26 AM »
We are called to be saints in this life, but we are also called to persevere and finish the race. We have no way of knowing if someone persevered until they pass from this life. This is, I believe, a big problem in evangelical circles. They make giants of their pastors who are still in the midst of their ministry and then when they collapse, it leads to a crisis of faith for the congregation. Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill Church is a sad example of that.
God bless!

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2017, 12:17:22 AM »
Greetings

Is there any possibility that saint will fall into sin? ...

Is there any possibility that a saint will not?
Based on saints' teachings that is the only possibility.

You're badly mistaken about what Saints teach. And what Saints are, for that matter.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2017, 01:13:18 AM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint.

Then how can anyone here answer your question?  We are not saints.
Then we can't answer anything regarding God, Heaven, Hell, Theology. We are not saints. How do we know all this?

I guess that's the problem I see with the standard I understand you to be applying.  For you, a saint is someone who has achieved or been granted a particular status that is permanent and abiding, and this has particular consequences (e.g., inability to sin, ability to know/teach). 

Yet, when we read the lives of the saints, what we see is that they had an even clearer perception of their own sinfulness and weakness than we might have about ours.  We see them confessing sins to their spiritual fathers or confessors and receiving Holy Communion with repentance.  We have no indication that their confessors refused them absolution because "they can't sin", and it would be impious to believe that they made up sins to confess because they actually had none (in fact, that'd be a sin).  We see them practicing vigilance over their lives out of an awareness that they are liable to fall to some temptation or another at any moment, no matter how close to God they are, and they don't want to fall away.  They refer to themselves in language that evokes the sense that they understand themselves to be sinners.
If a man has to repent then he has sinned. If a person has sinned then how can he/she be a saint? Are we supposed to think that a person is in and out of sainthood (at times abiding and other times not abiding in God)? St Symeon the new theologian says, neither theologians are repentants nor repentants will becomes theologians. For as west could not touch the east, same way, theology is above repentance. Truly repentant means is like a beggar who has spread his hands for mercy. Theologians are like men who are clothed in beautiful garments and live in royal houses. Thus saint tells are how huge a difference is between theologian (that is saint) and a truly repentant man.

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We know them to be saints only after they die, after we see the outcome of their lives, after the Church recognises the holiness of their lives.  But until they die in holiness (i.e., are born into eternal life), it is possible for them to fall away, or to fall away and to repent again.  The sanctifying action of the Holy Spirit in the life of a person does not impede or negate their free will.
I do not agree. The Church only canonizes a saint. Besides, they can make errors. The Church has canonized figures that have not been saints and He has "de-canonized" those who were saints. There's also a saying of ascetics: when somebody goes to Heaven it is said he will be amazed at three things: first, that he, unworthy one, is there; second, he would see there those who he did not expect to be there; third, he would not see there those who he expected to be there. Truly, only saintly figure can see a saint not a repentant. Or a saint can manifest his/her sainthood to a fallen man if it is God's Will. We can see this in saints lives. Like, for example, St Seraphim of Sarov appearing as engulfed in Uncreated Light to Nicholas Motovilov. Or, when saint Barbara (10th century) saw Heavenly light upon St Andrew fool for the Christ. Others did not see how Glorious he was made by God.   

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With regard to the Scripture passages, my sense is that there is in some modern schools of thought a tendency to interpret Scripture through a monastic prism, such that "sanctification" is tied up with notions of stages of purification and illumination, the various disciplines involved in progressing along the path, etc.  While this may be a legitimate and useful way to apply Scriptural teaching to the lives of monks and nuns, I think it is an error to take this as the only or even the primary meaning.
I don't think this has to do just with monasticism. There were and there still are saints amongst usual people. I think, the words of St John the Theologian applies to any saint whether they are monks or live in world. 

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For starters, your passages from St John refer to being "born of God" or "begotten of God", and we know from his other writings that this concept is linked to baptism.  In baptism, we die and are raised with Christ, given new life through the Holy Spirit who cries within us "Abba, Father", and we receive the Body and Blood of Christ, becoming one with God.  That is literally theosis.  But when we think of theosis, we often think of it in monastic terms, as the culmination of a long journey along the path of asceticism and renunciation.  Obviously that's also part of it, both for monks and for laypeople, but we cannot regard that as our primary conception of theosis without emptying the sacraments of their life and power.  So the proper interpretation of passages like those and others has to be something more than the very narrow interpretation you seem to take for granted.
Baptism with water or baptism with Holy Spirit? These are two different things. Holy scripture makes clear difference between the tow and saints do as well. After all, if we were born of God through baptism with water why do we still sin? St John clearly says that born of God will not sin. Thus, if we sin we are not born of God.

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I cannot say I have read St Symeon or St Gabriel widely, but I have read enough of and about Elder Joseph the Hesychast to say that I would disagree with an interpretation of his life and thought that would claim that "saints" are incapable of sinning while living in this world.
There's a newly canonized saint of Georgia. His name is st Ilia the righteous. He is one of the most beloved poets and writers of Georgia who has fought for Georgia's independence. St Ilia the righteous wrote a poem about an ascetic. This ascetic was so advanced in his podvigs that he could see the evil approaching from afar. At the end, he is seduced by a woman and this ascetic falls into a grave sin. There's a real story related to this. St Gabirel once was walking and he was seen to be "irritated" by another holy man. The other asked to him: Gabriel what happened. St Gabriel loved St Ilia. He said, how could he wright such a thing? Did he not know that such a monk would never fall into sin?

As far as St Joseph the hesichast goes you can listen to this video which is the passage from one of the books of Ephraim of Arizona (who in my humble opinion is another leaving saint). Listen to it and you will see how clearly it is stated by this saint that once by God's Grace saints "step into" this supernatural state (which is infinitely beyond our imagination and logic) they no more sin. St Joseph talks about three states of man: fallen, natural (in which state Adam was) and supernatural. So, man by God's Grace becomes much more than Adam was and he can detect any evil approaching him far far away. .

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2017, 01:16:35 AM »
Greetings

Is there any possibility that saint will fall into sin? ...

Is there any possibility that a saint will not?
Based on saints' teachings that is the only possibility.

You're badly mistaken about what Saints teach. And what Saints are, for that matter.
On this issue I don't think so.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2017, 01:19:03 AM »
If a person has sinned then how can he/she be a saint? Are we supposed to think that a person is in and out of sainthood (at times abiding and other times not abiding in God)? St Symeon the new theologian says, neither theologians are repentants nor repentants will becomes theologians. For as west could not touch the east, same way, theology is above repentance. Truly repentant means is like a beggar who has spread his hands for mercy. Theologians are like men who are clothed in beautiful garments and live in royal houses. Thus saint tells are how huge a difference is between theologian (that is saint) and a truly repentant man.

You're obviously trolling.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 01:22:13 AM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2017, 01:33:18 AM »
If a person has sinned then how can he/she be a saint? Are we supposed to think that a person is in and out of sainthood (at times abiding and other times not abiding in God)? St Symeon the new theologian says, neither theologians are repentants nor repentants will becomes theologians. For as west could not touch the east, same way, theology is above repentance. Truly repentant means is like a beggar who has spread his hands for mercy. Theologians are like men who are clothed in beautiful garments and live in royal houses. Thus saint tells are how huge a difference is between theologian (that is saint) and a truly repentant man.

You're obviously trolling.
What exactly do you mean? Did he not wright it?

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2017, 01:57:45 AM »
If a person has sinned then how can he/she be a saint? Are we supposed to think that a person is in and out of sainthood (at times abiding and other times not abiding in God)? St Symeon the new theologian says, neither theologians are repentants nor repentants will becomes theologians. For as west could not touch the east, same way, theology is above repentance. Truly repentant means is like a beggar who has spread his hands for mercy. Theologians are like men who are clothed in beautiful garments and live in royal houses. Thus saint tells are how huge a difference is between theologian (that is saint) and a truly repentant man.

You're obviously trolling.
If you are a christian or at least trying to be one, please, explain your neighbor why I am a troller. What did you see trolling like in my post?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2017, 02:18:59 AM »
If a person has sinned then how can he/she be a saint? Are we supposed to think that a person is in and out of sainthood (at times abiding and other times not abiding in God)? St Symeon the new theologian says, neither theologians are repentants nor repentants will becomes theologians. For as west could not touch the east, same way, theology is above repentance. Truly repentant means is like a beggar who has spread his hands for mercy. Theologians are like men who are clothed in beautiful garments and live in royal houses. Thus saint tells are how huge a difference is between theologian (that is saint) and a truly repentant man.

You're obviously trolling.
If you are a christian or at least trying to be one, please, explain your neighbor why I am a troller. What did you see trolling like in my post?

Putting that aside, have you not read yourself to say you stand against "bishops and priests"?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2017, 02:37:52 AM »
If a person has sinned then how can he/she be a saint? Are we supposed to think that a person is in and out of sainthood (at times abiding and other times not abiding in God)? St Symeon the new theologian says, neither theologians are repentants nor repentants will becomes theologians. For as west could not touch the east, same way, theology is above repentance. Truly repentant means is like a beggar who has spread his hands for mercy. Theologians are like men who are clothed in beautiful garments and live in royal houses. Thus saint tells are how huge a difference is between theologian (that is saint) and a truly repentant man.

You're obviously trolling.
If you are a christian or at least trying to be one, please, explain your neighbor why I am a troller. What did you see trolling like in my post?

Putting that aside, have you not read yourself to say you stand against "bishops and priests"?
I neither stand against bishops and priests neither have said anything like that.

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2017, 03:34:56 AM »
I cannot say I have read St Symeon or St Gabriel widely, but I have read enough of and about Elder Joseph the Hesychast to say that I would disagree with an interpretation of his life and thought that would claim that "saints" are incapable of sinning while living in this world.
I have awkwardly linked the video previously. Here's the link "The Heights of Orthodox Spirituality". Whole video is amazing. Or else, you can watch it from the 17th minute to the end.

Offline youssef

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2017, 05:23:53 AM »
Doesn't saint Paul say that we still sinners but we are not anymore slave to our sin. I think a saint it is who realise all his sin before his death and confess them.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2017, 01:23:16 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint.

Then how can anyone here answer your question?  We are not saints.
Then we can't answer anything regarding God, Heaven, Hell, Theology. We are not saints. How do we know all this?

I guess that's the problem I see with the standard I understand you to be applying.  For you, a saint is someone who has achieved or been granted a particular status that is permanent and abiding, and this has particular consequences (e.g., inability to sin, ability to know/teach). 

Yet, when we read the lives of the saints, what we see is that they had an even clearer perception of their own sinfulness and weakness than we might have about ours.  We see them confessing sins to their spiritual fathers or confessors and receiving Holy Communion with repentance.  We have no indication that their confessors refused them absolution because "they can't sin", and it would be impious to believe that they made up sins to confess because they actually had none (in fact, that'd be a sin).  We see them practicing vigilance over their lives out of an awareness that they are liable to fall to some temptation or another at any moment, no matter how close to God they are, and they don't want to fall away.  They refer to themselves in language that evokes the sense that they understand themselves to be sinners.
If a man has to repent then he has sinned. If a person has sinned then how can he/she be a saint? Are we supposed to think that a person is in and out of sainthood (at times abiding and other times not abiding in God)? St Symeon the new theologian says, neither theologians are repentants nor repentants will becomes theologians. For as west could not touch the east, same way, theology is above repentance. Truly repentant means is like a beggar who has spread his hands for mercy. Theologians are like men who are clothed in beautiful garments and live in royal houses. Thus saint tells are how huge a difference is between theologian (that is saint) and a truly repentant man.

I suspect something is being lost in translation.  You are defining "sin(ner)" and "saint" so starkly that I cannot understand them in light of the rest of Orthodox teaching. 

Since you refer us to the saints, I ask you:

Did the saints confess their sins while on earth? 

Did they cease to confess sins after they achieved sanctity?     

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We know them to be saints only after they die, after we see the outcome of their lives, after the Church recognises the holiness of their lives.  But until they die in holiness (i.e., are born into eternal life), it is possible for them to fall away, or to fall away and to repent again.  The sanctifying action of the Holy Spirit in the life of a person does not impede or negate their free will.
I do not agree. The Church only canonizes a saint. Besides, they can make errors. The Church has canonized figures that have not been saints and He has "de-canonized" those who were saints.

Can you provide some examples of each?

If the Church as a whole can err on this question, then its individual members can err.  In that case, how could you even know who was a saint?  You tell me to consider the lives and writings of St Symeon, St Gabriel, St Seraphim, St Barbara, and Elder Joseph, but I only know them through the Church.  What if the Church is wrong about them too?     

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With regard to the Scripture passages, my sense is that there is in some modern schools of thought a tendency to interpret Scripture through a monastic prism, such that "sanctification" is tied up with notions of stages of purification and illumination, the various disciplines involved in progressing along the path, etc.  While this may be a legitimate and useful way to apply Scriptural teaching to the lives of monks and nuns, I think it is an error to take this as the only or even the primary meaning.
I don't think this has to do just with monasticism. There were and there still are saints amongst usual people. I think, the words of St John the Theologian applies to any saint whether they are monks or live in world. 

I didn't mean that saints could only be found among monks.  What I meant was that there are people who read Scripture in light of specifically monastic principles and ideas and take such an interpretation to be the only or primary interpretation. 

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For starters, your passages from St John refer to being "born of God" or "begotten of God", and we know from his other writings that this concept is linked to baptism.  In baptism, we die and are raised with Christ, given new life through the Holy Spirit who cries within us "Abba, Father", and we receive the Body and Blood of Christ, becoming one with God.  That is literally theosis.  But when we think of theosis, we often think of it in monastic terms, as the culmination of a long journey along the path of asceticism and renunciation.  Obviously that's also part of it, both for monks and for laypeople, but we cannot regard that as our primary conception of theosis without emptying the sacraments of their life and power.  So the proper interpretation of passages like those and others has to be something more than the very narrow interpretation you seem to take for granted.
Baptism with water or baptism with Holy Spirit? These are two different things.

Where are you getting that?

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Holy scripture makes clear difference between the tow and saints do as well.

Perhaps you are misunderstanding them.

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After all, if we were born of God through baptism with water why do we still sin? St John clearly says that born of God will not sin. Thus, if we sin we are not born of God.

Romans 7.

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I cannot say I have read St Symeon or St Gabriel widely, but I have read enough of and about Elder Joseph the Hesychast to say that I would disagree with an interpretation of his life and thought that would claim that "saints" are incapable of sinning while living in this world.
There's a newly canonized saint of Georgia. His name is st Ilia the righteous. He is one of the most beloved poets and writers of Georgia who has fought for Georgia's independence. St Ilia the righteous wrote a poem about an ascetic. This ascetic was so advanced in his podvigs that he could see the evil approaching from afar. At the end, he is seduced by a woman and this ascetic falls into a grave sin. There's a real story related to this. St Gabirel once was walking and he was seen to be "irritated" by another holy man. The other asked to him: Gabriel what happened. St Gabriel loved St Ilia. He said, how could he wright such a thing? Did he not know that such a monk would never fall into sin?

I don't understand your point.  But maybe it's not necessary.  If the Church can make mistakes when canonising saints, I don't need to consider any of these examples.  Maybe they're not saints at all. 

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As far as St Joseph the hesichast goes you can listen to this video which is the passage from one of the books of Ephraim of Arizona (who in my humble opinion is another leaving saint). Listen to it and you will see how clearly it is stated by this saint that once by God's Grace saints "step into" this supernatural state (which is infinitely beyond our imagination and logic) they no more sin. St Joseph talks about three states of man: fallen, natural (in which state Adam was) and supernatural. So, man by God's Grace becomes much more than Adam was and he can detect any evil approaching him far far away. .

I have read Elder Ephraim's biography of Elder Joseph from cover to cover, and in its pages I have not come across your view that saints cannot sin.  On the contrary, his emphasis on obedience to one's elder and constant vigilance and prayer reinforce the idea that, no matter how holy one has become, one is always capable of falling away without these and other virtues. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2017, 01:31:17 PM »
Why would God sanctify someone only to take it away later in life? God sees the future and would have never sanctified that person to begin with. Common sense. No?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2017, 01:31:44 PM »
Why would God sanctify someone only to take it away later in life? God sees the future and would have never sanctified that person to begin with. Common sense. No?

No.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2017, 01:34:01 PM »
Why would God sanctify someone only to take it away later in life? God sees the future and would have never sanctified that person to begin with. Common sense. No?

If this were the mechanism of life, there would be no mortal life. God foresees all, controls all, and man has no role? -- that's contrary to our experience and the experience of the saints. It's also contrary to sound theology. Even Christ in the garden gives us a powerful example of what mortal life is really like in relationship to God -- one of human will relating to God's will and that relationship having its ups and downs.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2017, 10:05:40 AM »
Since you refer us to the saints, I ask you:

Did the saints confess their sins while on earth? 

Did they cease to confess sins after they achieved sanctity?
Once a man becomes saint by the Grace of God there's no more sin to confess. A saint, based what I have read, does not forget that the were sinful, but after he/she becomes permanent dwelling temple of God they will sin no more and nothing else is to confess.

Do you agree that saints teach there's a point when saints become permanent Temple of Holy Spirit and their will is totally subdued to God's Will and they have no will that is contrary to God's Will? If you do not can you bring a quote from a saint stating otherwise?

If you do agree than who's will is going to sin in them?   

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We know them to be saints only after they die, after we see the outcome of their lives, after the Church recognises the holiness of their lives.  But until they die in holiness (i.e., are born into eternal life), it is possible for them to fall away, or to fall away and to repent again.  The sanctifying action of the Holy Spirit in the life of a person does not impede or negate their free will.
I do not agree. The Church only canonizes a saint. Besides, they can make errors. The Church has canonized figures that have not been saints and He has "de-canonized" those who were saints.

Can you provide some examples of each?
Sure. I know one example for sure. There was a monk who was glorified as a saint in Georgian Orthodox Church in XII century by the time when spirituality was at its Zenith and She has given birth to many well known saints of Georgia. Later, in about XVII century (when spiritual life of Georgian Orthodox Church was in great trouble) this monk was considered to be a heretic and he was removed from the list of saints. Well, this monk could not have been a saint and heretic at the same time. So, somewhere Church must have made a mistake.

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If the Church as a whole can err on this question, then its individual members can err.  In that case, how could you even know who was a saint?  You tell me to consider the lives and writings of St Symeon, St Gabriel, St Seraphim, St Barbara, and Elder Joseph, but I only know them through the Church.  What if the Church is wrong about them too?
I have faith that all of those saints are real saints and I ask their intercession. I glorify them as saints of God. This is what matters for me. I don't see any problem in your questions. Of course, I can't know for sure since I have not given any revelation about their sainthood. But as I have faith for Godhood of Jesus Christ (which was not reviled to me by God as it reviled to saints, though I am very confident my faith is from God) so I have faith in their sainthood. 

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For starters, your passages from St John refer to being "born of God" or "begotten of God", and we know from his other writings that this concept is linked to baptism.  In baptism, we die and are raised with Christ, given new life through the Holy Spirit who cries within us "Abba, Father", and we receive the Body and Blood of Christ, becoming one with God.  That is literally theosis.  But when we think of theosis, we often think of it in monastic terms, as the culmination of a long journey along the path of asceticism and renunciation.  Obviously that's also part of it, both for monks and for laypeople, but we cannot regard that as our primary conception of theosis without emptying the sacraments of their life and power.  So the proper interpretation of passages like those and others has to be something more than the very narrow interpretation you seem to take for granted.
Baptism with water or baptism with Holy Spirit? These are two different things.

Where are you getting that?
For example, st Symeon refers to his adversaries, those who ridiculed his teachings, that they were not born with second birth by Holy Spirit. Why would he say that to christians who were baptized if by baptism they had received Holy Spirit? I do have faith that Baptism is very important mystery for a christian to be saved and it is absolutely necessary, that without it we can't be saved. But when st Symeon talks about second birth it is not what we mean by baptism. Besides, even in book of Acts it is clear that in baptism by water Holy Spirit does not descend on people, like in chapter 8 when St Philip baptized them. Later St John and Peter have to pray for this to happen. In any case, people receive baptism and rarely they percieve Holy Spirit coming down on them.

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2017, 10:13:37 AM »
If this were the mechanism of life, there would be no mortal life. God foresees all, controls all, and man has no role? -- that's contrary to our experience and the experience of the saints. It's also contrary to sound theology. Even Christ in the garden gives us a powerful example of what mortal life is really like in relationship to God -- one of human will relating to God's will and that relationship having its ups and downs.
As Christ's human will is in full accord to His Divine Will so by the Grace of God saint's will is in full accord with God's will. How can a man sin when his will is always to fulfill God's will?

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2017, 10:29:09 AM »
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I cannot say I have read St Symeon or St Gabriel widely, but I have read enough of and about Elder Joseph the Hesychast to say that I would disagree with an interpretation of his life and thought that would claim that "saints" are incapable of sinning while living in this world.
There's a newly canonized saint of Georgia. His name is st Ilia the righteous. He is one of the most beloved poets and writers of Georgia who has fought for Georgia's independence. St Ilia the righteous wrote a poem about an ascetic. This ascetic was so advanced in his podvigs that he could see the evil approaching from afar. At the end, he is seduced by a woman and this ascetic falls into a grave sin. There's a real story related to this. St Gabirel once was walking and he was seen to be "irritated" by another holy man. The other asked to him: Gabriel what happened. St Gabriel loved St Ilia. He said, how could he wright such a thing? Did he not know that such a monk would never fall into sin?

I don't understand your point.  But maybe it's not necessary.  If the Church can make mistakes when canonising saints, I don't need to consider any of these examples.  Maybe they're not saints at all.
My point is st Gabriel said clearly and unambiguously that a monk Georgian poet has described will never sin.

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As far as St Joseph the hesichast goes you can listen to this video which is the passage from one of the books of Ephraim of Arizona (who in my humble opinion is another leaving saint). Listen to it and you will see how clearly it is stated by this saint that once by God's Grace saints "step into" this supernatural state (which is infinitely beyond our imagination and logic) they no more sin. St Joseph talks about three states of man: fallen, natural (in which state Adam was) and supernatural. So, man by God's Grace becomes much more than Adam was and he can detect any evil approaching him far far away. .

I have read Elder Ephraim's biography of Elder Joseph from cover to cover, and in its pages I have not come across your view that saints cannot sin.  On the contrary, his emphasis on obedience to one's elder and constant vigilance and prayer reinforce the idea that, no matter how holy one has become, one is always capable of falling away without these and other virtues.
I've just finished reading st Joseph's letters "Monastic Wisdom". Yes, the saint emphasizes great importance of obedience but this is for those who are on the path of sainthood not for those who have already become perfect by the Grace of God through spiritual fathers. He also clearly says that once a man becomes permanent temple for Holy Spirit (at a stage that he calls perfection through perfecting Grace) he is out of all danger and he will not fall any more. You can read this in several places of his book "Monastic Wisdom" and especially the tenth letter to a monk where he talks about different state of human nature (against nature, natural, and above nature) and different aspects of Grace (purifying, illuminating and perfecting). I have linked a video in my previous posts. Same is said there. These are not my words. These are saint's words. Please, explain to me, how else can you interpret his words? (especially what he says after 17th minute to the end)

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2017, 10:32:04 AM »
I think a saint it is who realise all his sin before his death and confess them.
I realize all my sins by the Grace of God though can't resist to sinning every day. Does that make me a saint? Or do you not know that you are a sinner?

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2017, 11:21:52 AM »
I think a saint it is who realise all his sin before his death and confess them.
I realize all my sins by the Grace of God though can't resist to sinning every day. Does that make me a saint? Or do you not know that you are a sinner?

I am a sinner, but i don't know how much i sin every day, sure that i do some stuff and don't realise that i am making a sin. I doubt thay you realise or your sin.

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2017, 11:32:47 AM »
I think a saint it is who realise all his sin before his death and confess them.
I realize all my sins by the Grace of God though can't resist to sinning every day. Does that make me a saint? Or do you not know that you are a sinner?

I am a sinner, but i don't know how much i sin every day, sure that i do some stuff and don't realise that i am making a sin. I doubt thay you realise or your sin.
Oh, yes, I realize. Even if I did not, if I did realize it though and I still sinned I would be a saint based on your understanding, right?

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2017, 11:40:47 AM »
I think a saint it is who realise all his sin before his death and confess them.
I realize all my sins by the Grace of God though can't resist to sinning every day. Does that make me a saint? Or do you not know that you are a sinner?

I am a sinner, but i don't know how much i sin every day, sure that i do some stuff and don't realise that i am making a sin. I doubt thay you realise or your sin.
Oh, yes, I realize. Even if I did not, if I did realize it though and I still sinned I would be a saint based on your understanding, right?

We all will become saint after purification. Some people will make purification on earth. So if you realise all your sin and confess them on earth you will become a saint.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2017, 04:13:41 PM »
I think a saint it is who realise all his sin before his death and confess them.
I realize all my sins by the Grace of God though can't resist to sinning every day. Does that make me a saint? Or do you not know that you are a sinner?

I am a sinner, but i don't know how much i sin every day, sure that i do some stuff and don't realise that i am making a sin. I doubt thay you realise or your sin.
Oh, yes, I realize. Even if I did not, if I did realize it though and I still sinned I would be a saint based on your understanding, right?

I don't think anyone here is saying you're a saint. I'm not sure where you got that. However, as Youssef implies above, anyone in heaven is a saint; a saint is different from a Saint, both are saved and saints but the latter is commemorated. Of the uncommemorated saints we have faith there are and will be myriads. May we be among them.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Quinault

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2017, 10:58:48 PM »
My personal opinion is that the ability or lack thereof of a saint to sin means very little in comparison to what they do to remedy that sin.

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2017, 06:21:51 AM »
YES A SAINT CAN SIN.
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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2017, 06:28:34 AM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint. It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.

No, it is not clear! What you say is not clear

If it is while they are living, and they through the grace of God have been so blessed, it is still possible for them to sin and fall, and to lose this. I recommend reading of Saint Gregory PAlamas if you have not already  I think it will help understand better

edit: m,aybe I misunderstand you, do you mean a saint after he is glorified (as recognized by the Church), or before?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 06:37:01 AM by Gunnarr »
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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2017, 07:31:23 AM »
The way I am reading your posts are like this:

At some point a person reaches a "nirvana" like state, that is, it is permanent. But instead of this being a Buddhist concept it is a Christian one, where once a living person obtains special gift from God, they never lose it. Permanent saints, WHILE LIVING and after repose of body

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2017, 08:07:38 AM »
More like a moral choice.
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Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #47 on: July 13, 2017, 05:00:52 PM »
The way I am reading your posts are like this:

At some point a person reaches a "nirvana" like state, that is, it is permanent. But instead of this being a Buddhist concept it is a Christian one, where once a living person obtains special gift from God, they never lose it. Permanent saints, WHILE LIVING and after repose of body
At some point, while alive, saints become gods by grace ("nirvana" is not Orthodox teaching) and they do not sin any more. This is clearly said by saints themselves. It is not important what we think of saint, what we think of them who they become. Important thing is what they say about sainthood. I have not read St Gregory Palamas, but the ones I've read (St Symeon New Theologian, St Gabriel of Mtskheta, St Silouan of Athos, St Joheph the Hesichast and books my Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos) there it is clearly expressed without ambiguity that saints sin no more. I will post several of their quotes soon on this issue. Even the video I've linked has it clearly where St Joseph the Hesichast teaches this. You can watch the video starting from 17th minute.

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2017, 05:04:37 PM »
"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."

You really need citations if you're making a claim like this.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2017, 08:34:15 AM »
Based on "My Elder Joseph the Hesychast" I believe Elder Joseph did not teach this. If you read the section dealing with the end of his life, he almost fell into temptation of not trusting God on the day of his repose, if I remember correctly.

And for all the language used by holy people describing how God protects them, I think you are misunderstanding that they lose the ability to sin. Because sometimes we ourselves choose to sin of our own accord. Adam and Eve were made completely innocent of the passions yet they fell.

And St. Silouan talks about how they had immense grace and the Holy Spirit but lost it all when he fell in sin.

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #50 on: July 14, 2017, 09:40:33 AM »
"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."

You really need citations if you're making a claim like this.
What you mean by that? Do you mean multiple citations of saints on theosis (as well as Gospel teaching) that God has become man so that man can become god? You need citations on this?

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #51 on: July 14, 2017, 10:10:57 AM »
Based on "My Elder Joseph the Hesychast" I believe Elder Joseph did not teach this. If you read the section dealing with the end of his life, he almost fell into temptation of not trusting God on the day of his repose, if I remember correctly.

And for all the language used by holy people describing how God protects them, I think you are misunderstanding that they lose the ability to sin. Because sometimes we ourselves choose to sin of our own accord. Adam and Eve were made completely innocent of the passions yet they fell.

And St. Silouan talks about how they had immense grace and the Holy Spirit but lost it all when he fell in sin.

Based on "My Elder Joseph the Hesychast" I believe Elder Joseph did not teach this. If you read the section dealing with the end of his life, he almost fell into temptation of not trusting God on the day of his repose, if I remember correctly.
Well, I did not deny that. Yes, St Joseph the hesichast says same thing. This is the stage when the Grace comes and goes in order to train the spiritual athlete. At this stage they are vulnerable to fall. But there comes a point when Grace permanently abides in saint and there's no more danger. There comes a point when saint lives in God and he has no more will of his own. At this point saint's will is "100 % in accord" with God's will. So, who is going to sin then? By what will?

What is your "definition" of sainthood? What does it mean to become god by Grace? 

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Based on "My Elder Joseph the Hesychast" I believe Elder Joseph did not teach this. If you read the section dealing with the end of his life, he almost fell into temptation of not trusting God on the day of his repose, if I remember correctly.
Can you bring exact citation?

The Heights of Orthodox Spirituality - this is a talk by Joseph of Vatopedi based on, as I understand, that book "My Elder Joseph the Hesychast". In any case this is a teaching by St Joseph the hesichast.

At the 17th minute it is said clearly that "at the third stage, at the state of sanctification and supernatural state, Grace that was visiting from time to time to assist him (i.e. spiritual athlete) in spiritual battle now states permanently". And later, after a monk has been tried through this "hide and seek" game by the Grace, "he is perfected, tried and out of all danger".  It cannot be said more clearer than this: 1) At some point Grace permanently resides in him and 2) he is out of all danger.

Repeating my questions again: 1) who is going to sin/fall in a man in whom God dwells permanently? 2) What does it mean "a monk is out of all danger"?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #52 on: July 14, 2017, 12:01:31 PM »
"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."

You really need citations if you're making a claim like this.
What you mean by that? Do you mean multiple citations of saints on theosis (as well as Gospel teaching) that God has become man so that man can become god? You need citations on this?

How about just one commemorated saint writing or saying "I am become a god." You offered several, but I'll take one.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #53 on: July 14, 2017, 03:30:53 PM »
Why would God sanctify someone only to take it away later in life? God sees the future and would have never sanctified that person to begin with. Common sense. No?

If this were the mechanism of life, there would be no mortal life. God foresees all, controls all, and man has no role? -- that's contrary to our experience and the experience of the saints. It's also contrary to sound theology. Even Christ in the garden gives us a powerful example of what mortal life is really like in relationship to God -- one of human will relating to God's will and that relationship having its ups and downs.

Seeing all doesn't necessarily mean controlling all. Christ foresaw Judases deception and yet was still open to his forgiveness and allowed Judus and his will to persist. BTW: There are two ways one can become a saint. Gods direct decision which may or may not be known to us. As well as the Churches. Main stream saint were canonized by the churches authority. Other Saints like Peter, Panagia, John the forerunner and Moses were chosen directly by god. Than there are those saints that the  church doesn't recognize officially. Every day people with a lack luster life but just as important to the structure of the church. I don't know how important the structure of status is to God as it is to man.
  Great question to ask God. How important is status among saints?

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #54 on: July 14, 2017, 05:14:38 PM »
"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."

You really need citations if you're making a claim like this.
What you mean by that? Do you mean multiple citations of saints on theosis (as well as Gospel teaching) that God has become man so that man can become god? You need citations on this?

How about just one commemorated saint writing or saying "I am become a god." You offered several, but I'll take one.
How about St Paul saying "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me".

Or what did St Athanasius the great mean when he said "For He was made man that we might be made God"?

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #55 on: July 14, 2017, 05:20:58 PM »
"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."

You really need citations if you're making a claim like this.
What you mean by that? Do you mean multiple citations of saints on theosis (as well as Gospel teaching) that God has become man so that man can become god? You need citations on this?

How about just one commemorated saint writing or saying "I am become a god." You offered several, but I'll take one.
How about St Paul saying "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me".

Or what did St Athanasius the great mean when he said "For He was made man that we might be made God"?

Nobody here is doubting that saints are Christians. What you said is

"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #56 on: July 14, 2017, 09:17:14 PM »
"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."

You really need citations if you're making a claim like this.
What you mean by that? Do you mean multiple citations of saints on theosis (as well as Gospel teaching) that God has become man so that man can become god? You need citations on this?

How about just one commemorated saint writing or saying "I am become a god." You offered several, but I'll take one.
How about St Paul saying "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me".

Or what did St Athanasius the great mean when he said "For He was made man that we might be made God"?
St. Paul also said:   For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.  Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

That seems to indicate that St. Paul had not attained theosis at least by the time he wrote Romans, correct?

St. Athanasius also never indicated that we might be made god in this life. He just said it could happen. I don't think either of these statements support your belief that a saint become sinless in this life.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 09:18:29 PM by TheTrisagion »
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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #57 on: July 15, 2017, 08:20:46 AM »
"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."

You really need citations if you're making a claim like this.
What you mean by that? Do you mean multiple citations of saints on theosis (as well as Gospel teaching) that God has become man so that man can become god? You need citations on this?

How about just one commemorated saint writing or saying "I am become a god." You offered several, but I'll take one.
How about St Paul saying "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me".

Or what did St Athanasius the great mean when he said "For He was made man that we might be made God"?

Nobody here is doubting that saints are Christians. What you said is

"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."
You are an Orthodox Christian, right? Can you say the same thing that St Paul has said? Can you say "I no longer live, but Christ lives in me"?

And again: what is means when St Athanasius says: "For He was made man that we might be made God"?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #58 on: July 15, 2017, 12:26:33 PM »
"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."

You really need citations if you're making a claim like this.
What you mean by that? Do you mean multiple citations of saints on theosis (as well as Gospel teaching) that God has become man so that man can become god? You need citations on this?

How about just one commemorated saint writing or saying "I am become a god." You offered several, but I'll take one.
How about St Paul saying "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me".

Or what did St Athanasius the great mean when he said "For He was made man that we might be made God"?

Nobody here is doubting that saints are Christians. What you said is

"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."
You are an Orthodox Christian, right? Can you say the same thing that St Paul has said? Can you say "I no longer live, but Christ lives in me"?

And again: what is means when St Athanasius says: "For He was made man that we might be made God"?

Nobody here is doubting that saints are Christians. What you said is

"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2017, 08:52:37 AM »
"While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves."

You really need citations if you're making a claim like this.
What you mean by that? Do you mean multiple citations of saints on theosis (as well as Gospel teaching) that God has become man so that man can become god? You need citations on this?

How about just one commemorated saint writing or saying "I am become a god." You offered several, but I'll take one.
How about St Paul saying "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me".

Or what did St Athanasius the great mean when he said "For He was made man that we might be made God"?
St. Paul also said:   For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.  Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

That seems to indicate that St. Paul had not attained theosis at least by the time he wrote Romans, correct?
It seems to me that in this chapter St Paul at the time of its writing (he was already full of Holy Spirit which is evident in chapters before and after 7) talks about a sinner in general (which could have been St Paul as well before his conversion but not at the time he wrote romans) under the Mosaic law.

I’ve tried to find overview of patristic exegesis regarding this chapter and it does appear that early fathers (like St John Chrysostom, St Gregory of Nyssa, Origen and others) taught so. Do you know of any saints who taught otherwise? I’ll be more than glad to look into that more deeply.
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St. Athanasius also never indicated that we might be made god in this life. He just said it could happen.
Men are men in this life, not in the next one. Once man dies he is not man any more. Saint speaks about theosis of man not the theosis of man’s soul after death. Besides, it seems armchair theologians had such interpretation of man’s theosis in the past. This is probably why St Symeon New Theologian had to rebuke those who refuted theosis of man in this life.

Here’s what he said:
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Let us harken to Christ Himself to see if a man can behold God: “Blessed are pure in heart for they shall see God”. What would you say about this? I know what you will respond: Yes, those pure in heart will indeed see God but not in this life but in the life to come. You say this because you can’t believe in the Grace that God has given us as a gift to each one of us. You are not even trying to receive this Grace and your mind and heart is impatiently looking forward to future life. Tell me dear, how will you be able to see God in the next life if you have not seen him in this life? If God has said that only pure heart can contemplate Him, then each one of us will behold Him once our hearts have been purified. If you ever manage to clean your heart, trust me, you will see God immediately and you will never doubt truthfulness of my words. But you have never thought to purify your heart. How could you then believe it is really possible to see God. Tell me: is it possible to see God in this life? If you say God can be contemplated only after we die, then you have to agree that one can have repentant heart only after death. Thus we could never contemplate God neither before nor after death since after death we can’t practice virtues in order to clean out hearts. God Jesus Christ Says: “Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.” Which life Does Lord Mean: this one of the one to come? Of course He Means present life since we can keep His Commandments only in this life and based on this He Will Give us The Grace and Save us.

I’m reading St Symeon’s discourses now and there are passages where he speaks directly and indirectly indicate man’s theosis in this life not next one.

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I don't think either of these statements support your belief that a saint become sinless in this life.
It is not my belief. It is what saints teach.

The Heights of Orthodox Spirituality - this is a talk by Joseph of Vatopedi based on, as I understand, that book "My Elder Joseph the Hesychast". In any case this is a teaching by St Joseph the hesichast.

At the 17th minute it is said clearly that "at the third stage, at the state of sanctification and supernatural state, Grace that was visiting from time to time to assist him (i.e. spiritual athlete) in spiritual battle now states permanently". And later, after a monk has been tried through this "hide and seek" game by the Grace, "he is perfected, tried and out of all danger".  It cannot be said more clearer than this: 1) At some point Grace permanently resides in him and 2) he is out of all danger.

1) who is going to sin/fall in a man in whom God dwells permanently? 2) What does it mean "a monk is out of all danger"?

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2017, 09:01:23 AM »
Men are not men after death? What are they? I've never heard that one before...
God bless!

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #61 on: July 17, 2017, 09:13:19 AM »
Men are not men after death? What are they? I've never heard that one before...
I don't what man is after death. I know that man has body and the soul and at the death they separate.

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #62 on: July 17, 2017, 09:14:23 AM »
In any case, when saints speak of theosis of man they mean theois in this life. They are quite clear on this.

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #63 on: July 17, 2017, 10:52:48 AM »
Men are not men after death? What are they? I've never heard that one before...
I don't what man is after death. I know that man has body and the soul and at the death they separate.

You might want to stop telling us all about it, then, and start learning something.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 10:53:09 AM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #64 on: July 17, 2017, 10:53:52 AM »
In any case, when saints speak of theosis of man they mean theois in this life. They are quite clear on this.

Theosis is the name of a process.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #65 on: July 17, 2017, 11:19:35 AM »
Men are not men after death? What are they? I've never heard that one before...
I don't what man is after death. I know that man has body and the soul and at the death they separate.

You might want to stop telling us all about it, then, and start learning something.
I don't claim what I don't know, what was never revealed to me. If you claim such a thing your understanding would've been in accord with saints teachings.

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #66 on: July 17, 2017, 11:23:27 AM »
In any case, when saints speak of theosis of man they mean theois in this life. They are quite clear on this.

Theosis is the name of a process.
How is that? Man becoming god by God's grace is beyond all notion of time (refer to fr Sophrony Sakharov in his book on st Silouan of Athos). Process is something characterized in time. Have you been part of that process?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #67 on: July 17, 2017, 11:55:05 AM »
In any case, when saints speak of theosis of man they mean theois in this life. They are quite clear on this.

Theosis is the name of a process.
How is that? Man becoming god by God's grace is beyond all notion of time (refer to fr Sophrony Sakharov in his book on st Silouan of Athos). Process is something characterized in time. Have you been part of that process?

Now the saints who are alive are not in time?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #68 on: July 17, 2017, 12:09:21 PM »
No offense, but I see a number of statements saying how clear the Fathers are, but in the quotes you put forward, it doesn't seem all that clear to me at all. On the other hand, there are many Scriptural references and patriotic writings referencing we struggle against sin until death. I've never heard of anything where anyone becomes so divinized in this life that I they no longer sin. The Theotokos, perhaps, but not all the saints.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 12:10:00 PM by TheTrisagion »
God bless!

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #69 on: July 17, 2017, 12:17:51 PM »
In any case, when saints speak of theosis of man they mean theois in this life. They are quite clear on this.

Theosis is the name of a process.
How is that? Man becoming god by God's grace is beyond all notion of time (refer to fr Sophrony Sakharov in his book on st Silouan of Athos). Process is something characterized in time. Have you been part of that process?

Now the saints who are alive are not in time?
From our standpoint yes, limited man. What "state" they are in is beyond our imagination.

What is theosis? Can you talk about that?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #70 on: July 17, 2017, 12:19:57 PM »
In any case, when saints speak of theosis of man they mean theois in this life. They are quite clear on this.

Theosis is the name of a process.
How is that? Man becoming god by God's grace is beyond all notion of time (refer to fr Sophrony Sakharov in his book on st Silouan of Athos). Process is something characterized in time. Have you been part of that process?

Now the saints who are alive are not in time?
From our standpoint yes, limited man. What "state" they are in is beyond our imagination.

So now they are not only incapable of sin but of reading the clock. You really need to explain what justifies your claims.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #71 on: July 17, 2017, 12:26:34 PM »
No offense, but I see a number of statements saying how clear the Fathers are, but in the quotes you put forward, it doesn't seem all that clear to me at all. On the other hand, there are many Scriptural references and patriotic writings referencing we struggle against sin until death. I've never heard of anything where anyone becomes so divinized in this life that I they no longer sin. The Theotokos, perhaps, but not all the saints.
If it is not clear than I must be misinterpreting them which is quite possible.

Could you watch that video I've linked above and explain me if I misinterpreted St Joseph Hesychast?

Quote
this is a talk by Joseph of Vatopedi based on, as I understand, that book "My Elder Joseph the Hesychast". In any case this is a teaching by St Joseph the hesichast.

At the 17th minute it is said clearly that "at the third stage, at the state of sanctification and supernatural state, Grace that was visiting from time to time to assist him (i.e. spiritual athlete) in spiritual battle now states permanently". And later, after a monk has been tried through this "hide and seek" game by the Grace, "he is perfected, tried and out of all danger".  It cannot be said more clearer than this: 1) At some point Grace permanently resides in him and 2) he is out of all danger.

1) who is going to sin/fall in a man in whom God dwells permanently? 2) What does it mean "a monk is out of all danger"?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #72 on: July 17, 2017, 12:28:24 PM »
No offense, but I see a number of statements saying how clear the Fathers are, but in the quotes you put forward, it doesn't seem all that clear to me at all. On the other hand, there are many Scriptural references and patriotic writings referencing we struggle against sin until death. I've never heard of anything where anyone becomes so divinized in this life that I they no longer sin. The Theotokos, perhaps, but not all the saints.
If it is not clear than I must be misinterpreting them which is quite possible.

Could you watch that video I've linked above and explain me if I misinterpreted St Joseph Hesychast?

Quote
this is a talk by Joseph of Vatopedi based on, as I understand, that book "My Elder Joseph the Hesychast". In any case this is a teaching by St Joseph the hesichast.

At the 17th minute it is said clearly that "at the third stage, at the state of sanctification and supernatural state, Grace that was visiting from time to time to assist him (i.e. spiritual athlete) in spiritual battle now states permanently". And later, after a monk has been tried through this "hide and seek" game by the Grace, "he is perfected, tried and out of all danger".  It cannot be said more clearer than this: 1) At some point Grace permanently resides in him and 2) he is out of all danger.

1) who is going to sin/fall in a man in whom God dwells permanently? 2) What does it mean "a monk is out of all danger"?

Is there more to the video than "the 17th minute"?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #73 on: July 17, 2017, 12:33:28 PM »
In any case, when saints speak of theosis of man they mean theois in this life. They are quite clear on this.

Theosis is the name of a process.
How is that? Man becoming god by God's grace is beyond all notion of time (refer to fr Sophrony Sakharov in his book on st Silouan of Athos). Process is something characterized in time. Have you been part of that process?

Now the saints who are alive are not in time?
From our standpoint yes, limited man. What "state" they are in is beyond our imagination.

So now they are not only incapable of sin but of reading the clock. You really need to explain what justifies your claims.
:D
Let's leave that clock reading please. I don't want to delve into something that I have no part in.

Quote
this is a talk by Joseph of Vatopedi based on, as I understand, that book "My Elder Joseph the Hesychast". In any case this is a teaching by St Joseph the hesichast.

At the 17th minute it is said clearly that "at the third stage, at the state of sanctification and supernatural state, Grace that was visiting from time to time to assist him (i.e. spiritual athlete) in spiritual battle now states permanently". And later, after a monk has been tried through this "hide and seek" game by the Grace, "he is perfected, tried and out of all danger".  It cannot be said more clearer than this: 1) At some point Grace permanently resides in him and 2) he is out of all danger.

1) who is going to sin/fall in a man in whom God dwells permanently? 2) What does it mean "a monk is out of all danger"?

You can watch the whole video if you want to, very interesting talk. I just wanted to spare you time. The elder says there comes a time when God dwells permanently in a man and he is out of all danger. What does he mean by that?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #74 on: July 17, 2017, 01:26:30 PM »
In any case, when saints speak of theosis of man they mean theois in this life. They are quite clear on this.

Theosis is the name of a process.
How is that? Man becoming god by God's grace is beyond all notion of time (refer to fr Sophrony Sakharov in his book on st Silouan of Athos). Process is something characterized in time. Have you been part of that process?

Now the saints who are alive are not in time?
From our standpoint yes, limited man. What "state" they are in is beyond our imagination.

So now they are not only incapable of sin but of reading the clock. You really need to explain what justifies your claims.
:D
Let's leave that clock reading please. I don't want to delve into something that I have no part in.

Then maybe you shouldn't make claims about something you now want "no part in."

Quote
Quote
this is a talk by Joseph of Vatopedi based on, as I understand, that book "My Elder Joseph the Hesychast". In any case this is a teaching by St Joseph the hesichast.

At the 17th minute it is said clearly that "at the third stage, at the state of sanctification and supernatural state, Grace that was visiting from time to time to assist him (i.e. spiritual athlete) in spiritual battle now states permanently". And later, after a monk has been tried through this "hide and seek" game by the Grace, "he is perfected, tried and out of all danger".  It cannot be said more clearer than this: 1) At some point Grace permanently resides in him and 2) he is out of all danger.

1) who is going to sin/fall in a man in whom God dwells permanently? 2) What does it mean "a monk is out of all danger"?

You can watch the whole video if you want to, very interesting talk. I just wanted to spare you time. The elder says there comes a time when God dwells permanently in a man and he is out of all danger. What does he mean by that?

My point is, what does he say he means by that? Why are you reducing a half-hour video presentation to one minute?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #75 on: July 17, 2017, 07:20:36 PM »
 
Quote
Quote
this is a talk by Joseph of Vatopedi based on, as I understand, that book "My Elder Joseph the Hesychast". In any case this is a teaching by St Joseph the hesichast.

At the 17th minute it is said clearly that "at the third stage, at the state of sanctification and supernatural state, Grace that was visiting from time to time to assist him (i.e. spiritual athlete) in spiritual battle now states permanently". And later, after a monk has been tried through this "hide and seek" game by the Grace, "he is perfected, tried and out of all danger".  It cannot be said more clearer than this: 1) At some point Grace permanently resides in him and 2) he is out of all danger.

1) who is going to sin/fall in a man in whom God dwells permanently? 2) What does it mean "a monk is out of all danger"?

You can watch the whole video if you want to, very interesting talk. I just wanted to spare you time. The elder says there comes a time when God dwells permanently in a man and he is out of all danger. What does he mean by that?

My point is, what does he say he means by that? Why are you reducing a half-hour video presentation to one minute?
As I said:
Quote
You can watch the whole video if you want to, very interesting talk. I just wanted to spare you time. The elder says there comes a time when God dwells permanently in a man and he is out of all danger. What does he mean by that?
Or you can read "Monastic Wisdom: The letters of Elder Joseph the Hesychast", chapter XI starting on page 379. It's only 2 pages. In both cases you will see that by perfecting Grace (he also calls it third or supernatural state) a spiritual athlete is perfected, Grace abides in him permanently and that man sins no more.

Elsewhere he tells one of his spiritual children which sins are forgiven to him and which are not. Then again he says once he dies he will be with God.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #76 on: July 17, 2017, 07:22:11 PM »
 
Quote
Quote
this is a talk by Joseph of Vatopedi based on, as I understand, that book "My Elder Joseph the Hesychast". In any case this is a teaching by St Joseph the hesichast.

At the 17th minute it is said clearly that "at the third stage, at the state of sanctification and supernatural state, Grace that was visiting from time to time to assist him (i.e. spiritual athlete) in spiritual battle now states permanently". And later, after a monk has been tried through this "hide and seek" game by the Grace, "he is perfected, tried and out of all danger".  It cannot be said more clearer than this: 1) At some point Grace permanently resides in him and 2) he is out of all danger.

1) who is going to sin/fall in a man in whom God dwells permanently? 2) What does it mean "a monk is out of all danger"?

You can watch the whole video if you want to, very interesting talk. I just wanted to spare you time. The elder says there comes a time when God dwells permanently in a man and he is out of all danger. What does he mean by that?

My point is, what does he say he means by that? Why are you reducing a half-hour video presentation to one minute?
As I said:
Quote
You can watch the whole video if you want to, very interesting talk. I just wanted to spare you time. The elder says there comes a time when God dwells permanently in a man and he is out of all danger. What does he mean by that?
Or you can read "Monastic Wisdom: The letters of Elder Joseph the Hesychast", chapter XI starting on page 379. It's only 2 pages. In both cases you will see that by perfecting Grace (he also calls it third or supernatural state) a spiritual athlete is perfected, Grace abides in him permanently and that man sins no more.

Elsewhere he tells one of his spiritual children which sins are forgiven to him and which are not. Then again he says once he dies he will be with God.

Then why did he write 400+?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #77 on: July 17, 2017, 07:34:39 PM »
Don't take exaggerations or hyperbole as rigorous theological fact. Sometimes people say things when in love or spellbound by grace that says more about their happiness and hope/faith and psychological disposition than it does how things actually work.

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #78 on: July 18, 2017, 01:06:24 PM »
Greetings

Is there any possibility that saint will fall into sin?

Some of the clerics (or maybe most of them) say saints are as much humans as we are and they are as much prone to sin as we are. Where did this teaching come from? To me, reading on this issue, it is clear that saint of God will never fall. They have been sanctified and have become the permanent  temple of Holy Spirit. After this they are protected by God and will never fall into sin. This is written even by Saint John the Theologian in his first epistle as well. I have read this also in writings of prominent saints of the past (maybe not the best choice of the wording) as well as saints of todays. In short, saints clearly teach that a saint of God will never fall. So, why many priests and bishops teach the opposite?

It is possible to fall even in heaven in sin, since many holy angels of Lord fall. But in earth is same I guess. So for the saints in earth there is no need to be about to never done sin. Because sin is not something we do every day. It is something that we made only by our free will. When we chose to do it with our will and with all our mind that this is evil.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 01:06:57 PM by Indocern »

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #79 on: July 18, 2017, 01:09:15 PM »
^ Please don't listen to this guy.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #80 on: July 18, 2017, 01:57:46 PM »
Well if you believe we do sin every day, then I wonder why we still believe in God? God forced Adam out from heaven for only one sin no matter how much he cry for this sin, there was not even a little mercy. So if we are called christians and we do sins every day we will be casted to death because He will look at our sins with anger. If the sins was only when we do something very wrong then it will be more normal for God to keep us alive. But sin is to do something that is against our Lord in whom we trust.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 01:59:07 PM by Indocern »

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #81 on: July 18, 2017, 01:59:51 PM »
Well if you believe we do sin every day, then I wonder why we still believe in God? God forced Adam out from heaven for only one sin no matter how much he cry for this sin, there was not even a little mercy.

There was boundless mercy. Adam and Eve were preserved, they flourished, and were ultimately saved. The human race also.

Quote
So if we are called christians and we do sins every day we will be casted to death because he will look at our sins with anger. If the sins was only when we do something very wrong then it will be more normal for God to keep us alive. But sin is to do something that is against our Lord in whom we trust.

You should read up on something called "salvation" and someone called "Jesus Christ."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #82 on: July 18, 2017, 02:16:53 PM »
Well if you believe we do sin every day, then I wonder why we still believe in God? God forced Adam out from heaven for only one sin no matter how much he cry for this sin, there was not even a little mercy.

There was boundless mercy. Adam and Eve were preserved, they flourished, and were ultimately saved. The human race also.

Quote
So if we are called christians and we do sins every day we will be casted to death because he will look at our sins with anger. If the sins was only when we do something very wrong then it will be more normal for God to keep us alive. But sin is to do something that is against our Lord in whom we trust.

You should read up on something called "salvation" and someone called "Jesus Christ."

But they lived before the fall in Heaven. There is no pain and eternal happiness. They even was married there. Now we see that isn't possible anymore to live there married. So if heaven was our first home. They was forced out of it. And God did what He warned. That if they do that they will surely die. And they come to earth and died. It isn't more good to live forever in heaven married, as first they was? Maybe it happen because they wanted to be like God. Satan just told them that they will be like gods. But was this better than Heaven?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 02:18:12 PM by Indocern »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #83 on: July 18, 2017, 02:39:37 PM »
Yes, it would have been good had they remained in Paradise as companions of God. But what you said is that God showed them no mercy, "not even a little." You're changing your point.

Yet, believe it or not, our final end by salvation is going to be superior to the experience in Paradise.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Indocern

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #84 on: July 18, 2017, 03:15:53 PM »
Yet, believe it or not, our final end by salvation is going to be superior to the experience in Paradise.

Yes but the pain on earth are not worth it. If they were asked me: "Do you accept to have this pain on earth and go to heaven" I will instantly deny. I will even curse them as ungodly.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 03:16:48 PM by Indocern »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #85 on: July 18, 2017, 03:22:56 PM »
^ Please don't listen to this gentleman.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #86 on: July 18, 2017, 06:45:52 PM »
Yet, believe it or not, our final end by salvation is going to be superior to the experience in Paradise.

Yes but the pain on earth are not worth it. If they were asked me: "Do you accept to have this pain on earth and go to heaven" I will instantly deny. I will even curse them as ungodly.
80 or so years of pain seems like a paltry sum to pay for endless bliss.
God bless!

Offline Indocern

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #87 on: July 19, 2017, 06:18:23 AM »
Yet, believe it or not, our final end by salvation is going to be superior to the experience in Paradise.

Yes but the pain on earth are not worth it. If they were asked me: "Do you accept to have this pain on earth and go to heaven" I will instantly deny. I will even curse them as ungodly.
80 or so years of pain seems like a paltry sum to pay for endless bliss.

Yes, if the person have spiritual and physical strenght for this case. Some cases are end by death when the person take too much pain. But I believe there is someone who can prevent people to have pain forever, no matter in hell they said they had it.

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #88 on: July 22, 2017, 01:24:00 AM »
From Philokalia:

Quote
The Declaration of the Holy Mountain (also known as 'The Hagioritic Tome': Greek text, ed. P.K. Christou, vol. ii, pp. 567-78). This short statement of the hesychast standpoint, drafted by St Gregory Palamas in 1340, is of particular importance because it bears the signatures of leading Athonite monks and also of the local hierarch, the Bishop of Hierissos in Chalkidiki. This makes it clear that Palamas is expressing, not merely his own personal opinion, but the accepted teaching of the Holy Mountain. Palamas emphasizes the eschatological character of the divine light, which is a foretaste and anticipation of the glory of the age to come. The monks who bear witness to the uncreated light fulfill a prophetic role within the Church: just as the Old Testament prophets foretold Christ's first coming at the incarnation, so the monks as the prophets of the new covenant point forward to His second coming (Prologue). Here as elsewhere Palamas expresses a holistic vision of the human person: the body is glorified along with the soul (§ 4.). Our theosis is in no sense merely symbolical or metaphorical: it is a genuine and specific reality, a pure gift of grace experienced even in this present life (§ 2).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #89 on: July 22, 2017, 01:43:54 AM »
From Philokalia:

Quote
The Declaration of the Holy Mountain (also known as 'The Hagioritic Tome': Greek text, ed. P.K. Christou, vol. ii, pp. 567-78). This short statement of the hesychast standpoint, drafted by St Gregory Palamas in 1340, is of particular importance because it bears the signatures of leading Athonite monks and also of the local hierarch, the Bishop of Hierissos in Chalkidiki. This makes it clear that Palamas is expressing, not merely his own personal opinion, but the accepted teaching of the Holy Mountain. Palamas emphasizes the eschatological character of the divine light, which is a foretaste and anticipation of the glory of the age to come. The monks who bear witness to the uncreated light fulfill a prophetic role within the Church: just as the Old Testament prophets foretold Christ's first coming at the incarnation, so the monks as the prophets of the new covenant point forward to His second coming (Prologue). Here as elsewhere Palamas expresses a holistic vision of the human person: the body is glorified along with the soul (§ 4.). Our theosis is in no sense merely symbolical or metaphorical: it is a genuine and specific reality, a pure gift of grace experienced even in this present life (§ 2).

Perhaps you have trouble with grammar. We touched on this in an earlier exchange. In this case, one could as well say, "Our perfection is in no sense merely symbolical ... it is a ... reality" etc. This would in no way require, or even imply, that a subject undergoing perfection is perfect. A process comprises degrees, time, and these do not make it any less "a reality."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #90 on: July 22, 2017, 08:48:21 PM »
From Philokalia:

Quote
The Declaration of the Holy Mountain (also known as 'The Hagioritic Tome': Greek text, ed. P.K. Christou, vol. ii, pp. 567-78). This short statement of the hesychast standpoint, drafted by St Gregory Palamas in 1340, is of particular importance because it bears the signatures of leading Athonite monks and also of the local hierarch, the Bishop of Hierissos in Chalkidiki. This makes it clear that Palamas is expressing, not merely his own personal opinion, but the accepted teaching of the Holy Mountain. Palamas emphasizes the eschatological character of the divine light, which is a foretaste and anticipation of the glory of the age to come. The monks who bear witness to the uncreated light fulfill a prophetic role within the Church: just as the Old Testament prophets foretold Christ's first coming at the incarnation, so the monks as the prophets of the new covenant point forward to His second coming (Prologue). Here as elsewhere Palamas expresses a holistic vision of the human person: the body is glorified along with the soul (§ 4.). Our theosis is in no sense merely symbolical or metaphorical: it is a genuine and specific reality, a pure gift of grace experienced even in this present life (§ 2).

Perhaps you have trouble with grammar. We touched on this in an earlier exchange. In this case, one could as well say, "Our perfection is in no sense merely symbolical ... it is a ... reality" etc. This would in no way require, or even imply, that a subject undergoing perfection is perfect. A process comprises degrees, time, and these do not make it any less "a reality."
I'm very careful when choosing my words. The reason for this is very simple: I'm not a saint, moreover I'm not a theologian. Thus I can only rely on the teaching of our saints. No logic is going to be helpful here.

Hierotheos Vlachos in his book "Orthodox Psychotherapy" chapter 1 (Orthodoxy as a therapeutic science) subchapter 2 (Theology as a therapeutic science) based on the teaching of great orthodox saints writes clearly that any theologizing coming from impure heart is demonic theology. This has been said by saints like St Maximus the confessor and John of Sinai for example. They explicitly state that theology is the greatest gift that is given to saints on very advanced level of sainthood. True Theologians speak only "out of the mouth" of God Himself. Anybody else (I call them armchair theologians) speaking of theology speak out of the mouth of devil. This is not me who says it. Read that chapter, it's there. So, my "grammar" rules are simple. I don't go beyond what is said by this saints. I care not what armchair theologians say.

I've not read anything about theosis being a process. When you supply citations of true Theologians I'll look at it.

Are you a Theologian?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #91 on: July 22, 2017, 09:00:48 PM »
Perhaps you have trouble with grammar. We touched on this in an earlier exchange. In this case, one could as well say, "Our perfection is in no sense merely symbolical ... it is a ... reality" etc. This would in no way require, or even imply, that a subject undergoing perfection is perfect. A process comprises degrees, time, and these do not make it any less "a reality."
I'm very careful when choosing my words. The reason for this is very simple: I'm not a saint, moreover I'm not a theologian. Thus I can only rely on the teaching of our saints. No logic is going to be helpful here.

Yeah that's been obvious for a while now. ::)

Quote
Hierotheos Vlachos in his book "Orthodox Psychotherapy" chapter 1 (Orthodoxy as a therapeutic science) subchapter 2 (Theology as a therapeutic science) based on the teaching of great orthodox saints writes clearly that any theologizing coming from impure heart is demonic theology. This has been said by saints like St Maximus the confessor and John of Sinai for example. They explicitly state that theology is the greatest gift that is given to saints on very advanced level of sainthood. True Theologians speak only "out of the mouth" of God Himself. Anybody else (I call them armchair theologians) speaking of theology speak out of the mouth of devil. This is not me who says it. Read that chapter, it's there. So, my "grammar" rules are simple. I don't go beyond what is said by this saints. I care not what armchair theologians say.

Maybe if you'd read more of the book than "chapter 1, subchapter 2," you'd be able to follow along. This is of a piece with your offering the "seventeenth minute" of a long video and other sophistries of the same ilk above. The eminent Metropolitan's book is here smiling at me from my bookshelf, by the way. A very valuable book, so please re-apply yourself.

Quote
I've not read anything about theosis being a process. When you supply citations of true Theologians I'll look at it.

Are you a Theologian?

I'm not the one making outrageously innovative claims, viz.:

While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves.

So, again, please quote a Saint who said, e.g., I am become a god.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #92 on: July 22, 2017, 09:43:12 PM »
Perhaps you have trouble with grammar. We touched on this in an earlier exchange. In this case, one could as well say, "Our perfection is in no sense merely symbolical ... it is a ... reality" etc. This would in no way require, or even imply, that a subject undergoing perfection is perfect. A process comprises degrees, time, and these do not make it any less "a reality."
I'm very careful when choosing my words. The reason for this is very simple: I'm not a saint, moreover I'm not a theologian. Thus I can only rely on the teaching of our saints. No logic is going to be helpful here.

Yeah that's been obvious for a while now. ::)
I don't understand what exactly you mean. Are you condescending or do you think theology can be a result of logical thinking?


Quote
I'm not the one making outrageously innovative claims, viz.:
What claim did I make?


Quote
While alive, saints become gods ... This is clearly said by saints themselves.

So, again, please quote a Saint who said, e.g., I am become a god.
You are asking wrong question. No saints has said I'm god in a sense that they have reached this theosis by their own efforts. But sure, they've said by the Grace of God they have become god by grace not by nature. St Paul says: it is no me who is alive but Christ in me. We are circling now viciously.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #93 on: July 22, 2017, 09:45:50 PM »
St Paul says: it is no me who is alive but Christ in me.

That's the best you can do? What part of that says, "I am become a god"? Or even your tamer claim, "Behold, I cannot sin or fail"?

Quote
We are circling now viciously.

No, you are. Feel free to stop any time; you must be awfully dizzy.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #94 on: July 22, 2017, 09:56:00 PM »
No, you are. Feel free to stop any time; you must be awfully dizzy.
Thanks for offer. For the sake of my health I'll stop ;)

Offline Daniel2:47

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #95 on: August 25, 2017, 07:30:25 AM »
I was listening to a podcast this morning and St James the Ascetic, a 4th century saint, was mentioned.

St James lived as an ascetic for many years, acquiring a reputation for holiness and the ability to perform miracles. On one occasion, a prostitute dressed as a nun came to him to tempt him, pretending that she required healing for a lump in her chest that would only be healed by his touch. With one hand, he touched the woman and with the other he held his hand over a fire. The prostitute, moved by his love for Christ and self-denial, left her lifestyle and became a nun.

Some time later, a local nobleman whose daughter was demon-possessed brought her to him for deliverance, and afterwards required her to live near to him, being afraid the demon may return. Sadly St James fell into sin with her and filled with shame murdered her to prevent his sin from becoming public. He despaired of his vocation and was on the way to returning to the world when a monk approached him and encouraged him to continue remaining a monk. He went to live in a tomb for many years, repenting earnestly of his sins and petitioning God to forgive him. Towards the end of his life, there was a drought in the land and the local bishop approached him to entreat God for rain. This prayer was answered and the ascetic was comforted from this sign that God had heard him.

St James the Ascetic's feast day in January 28th.

Mystagogy - St James the Ascetic

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #96 on: August 25, 2017, 12:28:22 PM »
I might have said "abominably" rather than "sadly," but, yes, that is a striking refutation of Ativan's claim.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #97 on: September 01, 2017, 11:58:26 AM »
Some time later, a local nobleman whose daughter was demon-possessed brought her to him for deliverance, and afterwards required her to live near to him, being afraid the demon may return. Sadly St James fell into sin with her and filled with shame murdered her to prevent his sin from becoming public. He despaired of his vocation and was on the way to returning to the world when a monk approached him and encouraged him to continue remaining a monk. He went to live in a tomb for many years, repenting earnestly of his sins and petitioning God to forgive him. Towards the end of his life, there was a drought in the land and the local bishop approached him to entreat God for rain. This prayer was answered and the ascetic was comforted from this sign that God had heard him.

St James the Ascetic's feast day in January 28th.

Mystagogy - St James the Ascetic
He had not reached sainthood by that time - it is that simple. He had not only reached sainthood but he had not reached even apatheia, freedom from passions.

Offline youssef

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #98 on: September 06, 2017, 03:41:29 AM »
So when will we know that someone has become a saint. At the end what is the point of your question.