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Offline ativan

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Can a saint fall into sin?
« on: June 15, 2017, 06:15:22 PM »
Greetings

Is there any possibility that saint will fall into sin?

Some of the clerics (or maybe most of them) say saints are as much humans as we are and they are as much prone to sin as we are. Where did this teaching come from? To me, reading on this issue, it is clear that saint of God will never fall. They have been sanctified and have become the permanent  temple of Holy Spirit. After this they are protected by God and will never fall into sin. This is written even by Saint John the Theologian in his first epistle as well. I have read this also in writings of prominent saints of the past (maybe not the best choice of the wording) as well as saints of todays. In short, saints clearly teach that a saint of God will never fall. So, why many priests and bishops teach the opposite?

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2017, 06:16:42 PM »
When does one become a saint? 
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Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2017, 06:29:07 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint. It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2017, 06:37:25 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint.

Then how can anyone here answer your question?  We are not saints. 

Quote
It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.

Which writings?  Which saints? 

"Judge none blessed before his death: for a man shall be known in his children."  Sirach 11.28
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Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2017, 06:46:20 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint.

Then how can anyone here answer your question?  We are not saints.
Then we can't answer anything regarding God, Heaven, Hell, Theology. We are not saints. How do we know all this?

Quote
Quote
It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.

Which writings?  Which saints? 

"Judge none blessed before his death: for a man shall be known in his children."  Sirach 11.28
St John the Theologian:

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 1 John 3:6

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:18

Also St Symeon the new theologian, St Gabriel of Mtkheta, St Joseph the hesichast.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2017, 12:52:36 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint. It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.
written before they were saints, as that only happens when they have fallen asleep in the Lord.
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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2017, 01:37:30 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint.

Then how can anyone here answer your question?  We are not saints.
Then we can't answer anything regarding God, Heaven, Hell, Theology. We are not saints. How do we know all this?

I guess that's the problem I see with the standard I understand you to be applying.  For you, a saint is someone who has achieved or been granted a particular status that is permanent and abiding, and this has particular consequences (e.g., inability to sin, ability to know/teach). 

Yet, when we read the lives of the saints, what we see is that they had an even clearer perception of their own sinfulness and weakness than we might have about ours.  We see them confessing sins to their spiritual fathers or confessors and receiving Holy Communion with repentance.  We have no indication that their confessors refused them absolution because "they can't sin", and it would be impious to believe that they made up sins to confess because they actually had none (in fact, that'd be a sin).  We see them practicing vigilance over their lives out of an awareness that they are liable to fall to some temptation or another at any moment, no matter how close to God they are, and they don't want to fall away.  They refer to themselves in language that evokes the sense that they understand themselves to be sinners. 

We know them to be saints only after they die, after we see the outcome of their lives, after the Church recognises the holiness of their lives.  But until they die in holiness (i.e., are born into eternal life), it is possible for them to fall away, or to fall away and to repent again.  The sanctifying action of the Holy Spirit in the life of a person does not impede or negate their free will.       

Quote
Quote
Quote
It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.

Which writings?  Which saints? 

"Judge none blessed before his death: for a man shall be known in his children."  Sirach 11.28
St John the Theologian:

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 1 John 3:6

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:18

Also St Symeon the new theologian, St Gabriel of Mtkheta, St Joseph the hesichast.

With regard to the Scripture passages, my sense is that there is in some modern schools of thought a tendency to interpret Scripture through a monastic prism, such that "sanctification" is tied up with notions of stages of purification and illumination, the various disciplines involved in progressing along the path, etc.  While this may be a legitimate and useful way to apply Scriptural teaching to the lives of monks and nuns, I think it is an error to take this as the only or even the primary meaning. 

For starters, your passages from St John refer to being "born of God" or "begotten of God", and we know from his other writings that this concept is linked to baptism.  In baptism, we die and are raised with Christ, given new life through the Holy Spirit who cries within us "Abba, Father", and we receive the Body and Blood of Christ, becoming one with God.  That is literally theosis.  But when we think of theosis, we often think of it in monastic terms, as the culmination of a long journey along the path of asceticism and renunciation.  Obviously that's also part of it, both for monks and for laypeople, but we cannot regard that as our primary conception of theosis without emptying the sacraments of their life and power.  So the proper interpretation of passages like those and others has to be something more than the very narrow interpretation you seem to take for granted. 

I cannot say I have read St Symeon or St Gabriel widely, but I have read enough of and about Elder Joseph the Hesychast to say that I would disagree with an interpretation of his life and thought that would claim that "saints" are incapable of sinning while living in this world. 
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2017, 01:41:37 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint. It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.
written before they were saints, as that only happens when they have fallen asleep in the Lord.

Correct.  And I think this is an important point to keep in mind.  Too often, we ourselves or others will take writings of saints as if they are some sort of quasi-scripture, sharing some degree of inspiration by the Holy Spirit or otherwise "infallible".  But those writings were written while they were in this world struggling for their salvation and sanctification like we (hopefully) are.  We can recognise that they were/are holier in this world than we are in this world, but still, they were/are in this world when they wrote what they wrote, and so we need to be careful even if we feel we can generally have confidence in what we read. 
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2017, 02:04:23 PM »
Greetings

Is there any possibility that saint will fall into sin? ...

Is there any possibility that a saint will not?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2017, 02:10:18 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint.

Then how can anyone here answer your question?  We are not saints.
Then we can't answer anything regarding God, Heaven, Hell, Theology. We are not saints. How do we know all this?

Quote
Quote
It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.

Which writings?  Which saints? 

"Judge none blessed before his death: for a man shall be known in his children."  Sirach 11.28
St John the Theologian:

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 1 John 3:6

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:18

Also St Symeon the new theologian, St Gabriel of Mtkheta, St Joseph the hesichast.

If we are "abiding," i.e., standing fast in Christ, then, no, we do not err, as there is no error in Christ. However, standing our ground in Christ is a state from which mortals slip, and outside Christ there is inevitably error. All mortals err, as we are mortal, and yet Christ cannot err, and we are invited to abide in him. I don't think the Beloved Disciple meant more than this. It is much the same as the Apostle's image of a knight who "stands fast in the Lord and the power of his might" (last half of Eph ch 6).

That said, we do believe that there have been Theophoroi, those who are entirely possessed by the Holy Spirit while yet in this life. Such saints are not all saints. And such saints at sometime in their lives did err and recover, the mortal condition.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2017, 02:11:21 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint. It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.
written before they were saints, as that only happens when they have fallen asleep in the Lord.

Correct.  And I think this is an important point to keep in mind.  Too often, we ourselves or others will take writings of saints as if they are some sort of quasi-scripture, sharing some degree of inspiration by the Holy Spirit or otherwise "infallible".  But those writings were written while they were in this world struggling for their salvation and sanctification like we (hopefully) are.  We can recognise that they were/are holier in this world than we are in this world, but still, they were/are in this world when they wrote what they wrote, and so we need to be careful even if we feel we can generally have confidence in what we read.

I get were your saying with regards to infallibility, but I'm not sure I can get on board with the notion that someone's only a saint when he dies.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2017, 02:20:28 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint. It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.
written before they were saints, as that only happens when they have fallen asleep in the Lord.

Correct.  And I think this is an important point to keep in mind.  Too often, we ourselves or others will take writings of saints as if they are some sort of quasi-scripture, sharing some degree of inspiration by the Holy Spirit or otherwise "infallible".  But those writings were written while they were in this world struggling for their salvation and sanctification like we (hopefully) are.  We can recognise that they were/are holier in this world than we are in this world, but still, they were/are in this world when they wrote what they wrote, and so we need to be careful even if we feel we can generally have confidence in what we read.

I get were your saying with regards to infallibility, but I'm not sure I can get on board with the notion that someone's only a saint when he dies.

This gets into Beebert territory. Surely a commemorated Saint was going to be one before he died, even before he was born. Here on the mortal plane, however, time is the reliable revelator.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2017, 02:30:48 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint. It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.
written before they were saints, as that only happens when they have fallen asleep in the Lord.

Correct.  And I think this is an important point to keep in mind.  Too often, we ourselves or others will take writings of saints as if they are some sort of quasi-scripture, sharing some degree of inspiration by the Holy Spirit or otherwise "infallible".  But those writings were written while they were in this world struggling for their salvation and sanctification like we (hopefully) are.  We can recognise that they were/are holier in this world than we are in this world, but still, they were/are in this world when they wrote what they wrote, and so we need to be careful even if we feel we can generally have confidence in what we read.

I get were your saying with regards to infallibility, but I'm not sure I can get on board with the notion that someone's only a saint when he dies.

This gets into Beebert territory. Surely a commemorated Saint was going to be one before he died, even before he was born. Here on the mortal plane, however, time is the reliable revelator.

The idea here seems to be that the writings of the saints were "written before they are saints" and can therefore, I guess, be set aside if we find something disagreeable. Not, of course, that we should adopt an uncritical approach to these writings but "well, he wasn't a saint yet!" is a problematic approach to take.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2017, 02:51:39 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint. It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.
written before they were saints, as that only happens when they have fallen asleep in the Lord.

Correct.  And I think this is an important point to keep in mind.  Too often, we ourselves or others will take writings of saints as if they are some sort of quasi-scripture, sharing some degree of inspiration by the Holy Spirit or otherwise "infallible".  But those writings were written while they were in this world struggling for their salvation and sanctification like we (hopefully) are.  We can recognise that they were/are holier in this world than we are in this world, but still, they were/are in this world when they wrote what they wrote, and so we need to be careful even if we feel we can generally have confidence in what we read.

I get were your saying with regards to infallibility, but I'm not sure I can get on board with the notion that someone's only a saint when he dies.

This gets into Beebert territory. Surely a commemorated Saint was going to be one before he died, even before he was born. Here on the mortal plane, however, time is the reliable revelator.

The idea here seems to be that the writings of the saints were "written before they are saints" and can therefore, I guess, be set aside if we find something disagreeable. Not, of course, that we should adopt an uncritical approach to these writings but "well, he wasn't a saint yet!" is a problematic approach to take.

How is the reverse less problematic, in your opinion?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2017, 02:56:43 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint. It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.
written before they were saints, as that only happens when they have fallen asleep in the Lord.

Correct.  And I think this is an important point to keep in mind.  Too often, we ourselves or others will take writings of saints as if they are some sort of quasi-scripture, sharing some degree of inspiration by the Holy Spirit or otherwise "infallible".  But those writings were written while they were in this world struggling for their salvation and sanctification like we (hopefully) are.  We can recognise that they were/are holier in this world than we are in this world, but still, they were/are in this world when they wrote what they wrote, and so we need to be careful even if we feel we can generally have confidence in what we read.

I get were your saying with regards to infallibility, but I'm not sure I can get on board with the notion that someone's only a saint when he dies.

This gets into Beebert territory. Surely a commemorated Saint was going to be one before he died, even before he was born. Here on the mortal plane, however, time is the reliable revelator.

The idea here seems to be that the writings of the saints were "written before they are saints" and can therefore, I guess, be set aside if we find something disagreeable. Not, of course, that we should adopt an uncritical approach to these writings but "well, he wasn't a saint yet!" is a problematic approach to take.

How is the reverse less problematic, in your opinion?

The reverse being what? That the saints are infallible? Not my position.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2017, 05:56:41 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint. It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.
written before they were saints, as that only happens when they have fallen asleep in the Lord.

Correct.  And I think this is an important point to keep in mind.  Too often, we ourselves or others will take writings of saints as if they are some sort of quasi-scripture, sharing some degree of inspiration by the Holy Spirit or otherwise "infallible".  But those writings were written while they were in this world struggling for their salvation and sanctification like we (hopefully) are.  We can recognise that they were/are holier in this world than we are in this world, but still, they were/are in this world when they wrote what they wrote, and so we need to be careful even if we feel we can generally have confidence in what we read.

I get were your saying with regards to infallibility, but I'm not sure I can get on board with the notion that someone's only a saint when he dies.

I don't mean to say that we can't recognise sanctity in a person while they are alive among us on earth and regard them as saintly (or even as a saint, full stop).  But until they die, they are still capable of being tempted, of falling away, etc.  I understood the OP to be claiming that a person on earth can achieve sanctity by the grace of God and somehow that gets "locked in" so that it becomes a permanent state from which there can be no change for the worse because God prevents any such change from happening. 

If you disagree with that, I'd be interested in knowing your reasons.  Perhaps I'm not being clear. 
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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2017, 07:07:32 PM »
The idea here seems to be that the writings of the saints were "written before they are saints" and can therefore, I guess, be set aside if we find something disagreeable. Not, of course, that we should adopt an uncritical approach to these writings but "well, he wasn't a saint yet!" is a problematic approach to take.

It is, and that is not what I intended.  I'm arguing that the writings of the saints cannot be read uncritically.  St Augustine is a saint, for example, but his sanctity is not a guarantee of the absolute doctrinal correctness of all his writings.  We should be able to venerate the saint and accept his body of writing in general terms as worthy of pious respect.  At the same time, we need to be careful not to assume uncritically that everything therein is 100% reliable for all time, or that we can just imitate everything recounted within them as if it also applies to us, etc.  I think most of us accept that when it comes to St Augustine, but I extend it to all the saints.  If St John Chrysostom's works have less issues than St Augustine's, for example, still we should engage with them in the same way. 

Again, I'm approaching this in light of my response to the idea in the OP that saints on earth, upon sanctification, are permanently locked into that state, thus making them reliable and inerrant guides and teachers.  I hope that makes things clearer.         
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Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2017, 12:05:35 AM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint. It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.
written before they were saints, as that only happens when they have fallen asleep in the Lord.
Can you provide one patristic quote from a saint where it says man becomes saint after passing away? On the other hand, there are multiple quotes where saints say we are called to become saints in this life.

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2017, 12:08:50 AM »
Greetings

Is there any possibility that saint will fall into sin? ...

Is there any possibility that a saint will not?
Based on saints' teachings that is the only possibility.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2017, 12:12:26 AM »
We are called to be saints in this life, but we are also called to persevere and finish the race. We have no way of knowing if someone persevered until they pass from this life. This is, I believe, a big problem in evangelical circles. They make giants of their pastors who are still in the midst of their ministry and then when they collapse, it leads to a crisis of faith for the congregation. Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill Church is a sad example of that.
God bless!

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2017, 12:17:22 AM »
Greetings

Is there any possibility that saint will fall into sin? ...

Is there any possibility that a saint will not?
Based on saints' teachings that is the only possibility.

You're badly mistaken about what Saints teach. And what Saints are, for that matter.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2017, 01:13:18 AM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint.

Then how can anyone here answer your question?  We are not saints.
Then we can't answer anything regarding God, Heaven, Hell, Theology. We are not saints. How do we know all this?

I guess that's the problem I see with the standard I understand you to be applying.  For you, a saint is someone who has achieved or been granted a particular status that is permanent and abiding, and this has particular consequences (e.g., inability to sin, ability to know/teach). 

Yet, when we read the lives of the saints, what we see is that they had an even clearer perception of their own sinfulness and weakness than we might have about ours.  We see them confessing sins to their spiritual fathers or confessors and receiving Holy Communion with repentance.  We have no indication that their confessors refused them absolution because "they can't sin", and it would be impious to believe that they made up sins to confess because they actually had none (in fact, that'd be a sin).  We see them practicing vigilance over their lives out of an awareness that they are liable to fall to some temptation or another at any moment, no matter how close to God they are, and they don't want to fall away.  They refer to themselves in language that evokes the sense that they understand themselves to be sinners.
If a man has to repent then he has sinned. If a person has sinned then how can he/she be a saint? Are we supposed to think that a person is in and out of sainthood (at times abiding and other times not abiding in God)? St Symeon the new theologian says, neither theologians are repentants nor repentants will becomes theologians. For as west could not touch the east, same way, theology is above repentance. Truly repentant means is like a beggar who has spread his hands for mercy. Theologians are like men who are clothed in beautiful garments and live in royal houses. Thus saint tells are how huge a difference is between theologian (that is saint) and a truly repentant man.

Quote
We know them to be saints only after they die, after we see the outcome of their lives, after the Church recognises the holiness of their lives.  But until they die in holiness (i.e., are born into eternal life), it is possible for them to fall away, or to fall away and to repent again.  The sanctifying action of the Holy Spirit in the life of a person does not impede or negate their free will.
I do not agree. The Church only canonizes a saint. Besides, they can make errors. The Church has canonized figures that have not been saints and He has "de-canonized" those who were saints. There's also a saying of ascetics: when somebody goes to Heaven it is said he will be amazed at three things: first, that he, unworthy one, is there; second, he would see there those who he did not expect to be there; third, he would not see there those who he expected to be there. Truly, only saintly figure can see a saint not a repentant. Or a saint can manifest his/her sainthood to a fallen man if it is God's Will. We can see this in saints lives. Like, for example, St Seraphim of Sarov appearing as engulfed in Uncreated Light to Nicholas Motovilov. Or, when saint Barbara (10th century) saw Heavenly light upon St Andrew fool for the Christ. Others did not see how Glorious he was made by God.   

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With regard to the Scripture passages, my sense is that there is in some modern schools of thought a tendency to interpret Scripture through a monastic prism, such that "sanctification" is tied up with notions of stages of purification and illumination, the various disciplines involved in progressing along the path, etc.  While this may be a legitimate and useful way to apply Scriptural teaching to the lives of monks and nuns, I think it is an error to take this as the only or even the primary meaning.
I don't think this has to do just with monasticism. There were and there still are saints amongst usual people. I think, the words of St John the Theologian applies to any saint whether they are monks or live in world. 

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For starters, your passages from St John refer to being "born of God" or "begotten of God", and we know from his other writings that this concept is linked to baptism.  In baptism, we die and are raised with Christ, given new life through the Holy Spirit who cries within us "Abba, Father", and we receive the Body and Blood of Christ, becoming one with God.  That is literally theosis.  But when we think of theosis, we often think of it in monastic terms, as the culmination of a long journey along the path of asceticism and renunciation.  Obviously that's also part of it, both for monks and for laypeople, but we cannot regard that as our primary conception of theosis without emptying the sacraments of their life and power.  So the proper interpretation of passages like those and others has to be something more than the very narrow interpretation you seem to take for granted.
Baptism with water or baptism with Holy Spirit? These are two different things. Holy scripture makes clear difference between the tow and saints do as well. After all, if we were born of God through baptism with water why do we still sin? St John clearly says that born of God will not sin. Thus, if we sin we are not born of God.

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I cannot say I have read St Symeon or St Gabriel widely, but I have read enough of and about Elder Joseph the Hesychast to say that I would disagree with an interpretation of his life and thought that would claim that "saints" are incapable of sinning while living in this world.
There's a newly canonized saint of Georgia. His name is st Ilia the righteous. He is one of the most beloved poets and writers of Georgia who has fought for Georgia's independence. St Ilia the righteous wrote a poem about an ascetic. This ascetic was so advanced in his podvigs that he could see the evil approaching from afar. At the end, he is seduced by a woman and this ascetic falls into a grave sin. There's a real story related to this. St Gabirel once was walking and he was seen to be "irritated" by another holy man. The other asked to him: Gabriel what happened. St Gabriel loved St Ilia. He said, how could he wright such a thing? Did he not know that such a monk would never fall into sin?

As far as St Joseph the hesichast goes you can listen to this video which is the passage from one of the books of Ephraim of Arizona (who in my humble opinion is another leaving saint). Listen to it and you will see how clearly it is stated by this saint that once by God's Grace saints "step into" this supernatural state (which is infinitely beyond our imagination and logic) they no more sin. St Joseph talks about three states of man: fallen, natural (in which state Adam was) and supernatural. So, man by God's Grace becomes much more than Adam was and he can detect any evil approaching him far far away. .

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2017, 01:16:35 AM »
Greetings

Is there any possibility that saint will fall into sin? ...

Is there any possibility that a saint will not?
Based on saints' teachings that is the only possibility.

You're badly mistaken about what Saints teach. And what Saints are, for that matter.
On this issue I don't think so.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2017, 01:19:03 AM »
If a person has sinned then how can he/she be a saint? Are we supposed to think that a person is in and out of sainthood (at times abiding and other times not abiding in God)? St Symeon the new theologian says, neither theologians are repentants nor repentants will becomes theologians. For as west could not touch the east, same way, theology is above repentance. Truly repentant means is like a beggar who has spread his hands for mercy. Theologians are like men who are clothed in beautiful garments and live in royal houses. Thus saint tells are how huge a difference is between theologian (that is saint) and a truly repentant man.

You're obviously trolling.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 01:22:13 AM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2017, 01:33:18 AM »
If a person has sinned then how can he/she be a saint? Are we supposed to think that a person is in and out of sainthood (at times abiding and other times not abiding in God)? St Symeon the new theologian says, neither theologians are repentants nor repentants will becomes theologians. For as west could not touch the east, same way, theology is above repentance. Truly repentant means is like a beggar who has spread his hands for mercy. Theologians are like men who are clothed in beautiful garments and live in royal houses. Thus saint tells are how huge a difference is between theologian (that is saint) and a truly repentant man.

You're obviously trolling.
What exactly do you mean? Did he not wright it?

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2017, 01:57:45 AM »
If a person has sinned then how can he/she be a saint? Are we supposed to think that a person is in and out of sainthood (at times abiding and other times not abiding in God)? St Symeon the new theologian says, neither theologians are repentants nor repentants will becomes theologians. For as west could not touch the east, same way, theology is above repentance. Truly repentant means is like a beggar who has spread his hands for mercy. Theologians are like men who are clothed in beautiful garments and live in royal houses. Thus saint tells are how huge a difference is between theologian (that is saint) and a truly repentant man.

You're obviously trolling.
If you are a christian or at least trying to be one, please, explain your neighbor why I am a troller. What did you see trolling like in my post?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2017, 02:18:59 AM »
If a person has sinned then how can he/she be a saint? Are we supposed to think that a person is in and out of sainthood (at times abiding and other times not abiding in God)? St Symeon the new theologian says, neither theologians are repentants nor repentants will becomes theologians. For as west could not touch the east, same way, theology is above repentance. Truly repentant means is like a beggar who has spread his hands for mercy. Theologians are like men who are clothed in beautiful garments and live in royal houses. Thus saint tells are how huge a difference is between theologian (that is saint) and a truly repentant man.

You're obviously trolling.
If you are a christian or at least trying to be one, please, explain your neighbor why I am a troller. What did you see trolling like in my post?

Putting that aside, have you not read yourself to say you stand against "bishops and priests"?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2017, 02:37:52 AM »
If a person has sinned then how can he/she be a saint? Are we supposed to think that a person is in and out of sainthood (at times abiding and other times not abiding in God)? St Symeon the new theologian says, neither theologians are repentants nor repentants will becomes theologians. For as west could not touch the east, same way, theology is above repentance. Truly repentant means is like a beggar who has spread his hands for mercy. Theologians are like men who are clothed in beautiful garments and live in royal houses. Thus saint tells are how huge a difference is between theologian (that is saint) and a truly repentant man.

You're obviously trolling.
If you are a christian or at least trying to be one, please, explain your neighbor why I am a troller. What did you see trolling like in my post?

Putting that aside, have you not read yourself to say you stand against "bishops and priests"?
I neither stand against bishops and priests neither have said anything like that.

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2017, 03:34:56 AM »
I cannot say I have read St Symeon or St Gabriel widely, but I have read enough of and about Elder Joseph the Hesychast to say that I would disagree with an interpretation of his life and thought that would claim that "saints" are incapable of sinning while living in this world.
I have awkwardly linked the video previously. Here's the link "The Heights of Orthodox Spirituality". Whole video is amazing. Or else, you can watch it from the 17th minute to the end.

Offline youssef

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2017, 05:23:53 AM »
Doesn't saint Paul say that we still sinners but we are not anymore slave to our sin. I think a saint it is who realise all his sin before his death and confess them.

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2017, 01:23:16 PM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint.

Then how can anyone here answer your question?  We are not saints.
Then we can't answer anything regarding God, Heaven, Hell, Theology. We are not saints. How do we know all this?

I guess that's the problem I see with the standard I understand you to be applying.  For you, a saint is someone who has achieved or been granted a particular status that is permanent and abiding, and this has particular consequences (e.g., inability to sin, ability to know/teach). 

Yet, when we read the lives of the saints, what we see is that they had an even clearer perception of their own sinfulness and weakness than we might have about ours.  We see them confessing sins to their spiritual fathers or confessors and receiving Holy Communion with repentance.  We have no indication that their confessors refused them absolution because "they can't sin", and it would be impious to believe that they made up sins to confess because they actually had none (in fact, that'd be a sin).  We see them practicing vigilance over their lives out of an awareness that they are liable to fall to some temptation or another at any moment, no matter how close to God they are, and they don't want to fall away.  They refer to themselves in language that evokes the sense that they understand themselves to be sinners.
If a man has to repent then he has sinned. If a person has sinned then how can he/she be a saint? Are we supposed to think that a person is in and out of sainthood (at times abiding and other times not abiding in God)? St Symeon the new theologian says, neither theologians are repentants nor repentants will becomes theologians. For as west could not touch the east, same way, theology is above repentance. Truly repentant means is like a beggar who has spread his hands for mercy. Theologians are like men who are clothed in beautiful garments and live in royal houses. Thus saint tells are how huge a difference is between theologian (that is saint) and a truly repentant man.

I suspect something is being lost in translation.  You are defining "sin(ner)" and "saint" so starkly that I cannot understand them in light of the rest of Orthodox teaching. 

Since you refer us to the saints, I ask you:

Did the saints confess their sins while on earth? 

Did they cease to confess sins after they achieved sanctity?     

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We know them to be saints only after they die, after we see the outcome of their lives, after the Church recognises the holiness of their lives.  But until they die in holiness (i.e., are born into eternal life), it is possible for them to fall away, or to fall away and to repent again.  The sanctifying action of the Holy Spirit in the life of a person does not impede or negate their free will.
I do not agree. The Church only canonizes a saint. Besides, they can make errors. The Church has canonized figures that have not been saints and He has "de-canonized" those who were saints.

Can you provide some examples of each?

If the Church as a whole can err on this question, then its individual members can err.  In that case, how could you even know who was a saint?  You tell me to consider the lives and writings of St Symeon, St Gabriel, St Seraphim, St Barbara, and Elder Joseph, but I only know them through the Church.  What if the Church is wrong about them too?     

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With regard to the Scripture passages, my sense is that there is in some modern schools of thought a tendency to interpret Scripture through a monastic prism, such that "sanctification" is tied up with notions of stages of purification and illumination, the various disciplines involved in progressing along the path, etc.  While this may be a legitimate and useful way to apply Scriptural teaching to the lives of monks and nuns, I think it is an error to take this as the only or even the primary meaning.
I don't think this has to do just with monasticism. There were and there still are saints amongst usual people. I think, the words of St John the Theologian applies to any saint whether they are monks or live in world. 

I didn't mean that saints could only be found among monks.  What I meant was that there are people who read Scripture in light of specifically monastic principles and ideas and take such an interpretation to be the only or primary interpretation. 

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For starters, your passages from St John refer to being "born of God" or "begotten of God", and we know from his other writings that this concept is linked to baptism.  In baptism, we die and are raised with Christ, given new life through the Holy Spirit who cries within us "Abba, Father", and we receive the Body and Blood of Christ, becoming one with God.  That is literally theosis.  But when we think of theosis, we often think of it in monastic terms, as the culmination of a long journey along the path of asceticism and renunciation.  Obviously that's also part of it, both for monks and for laypeople, but we cannot regard that as our primary conception of theosis without emptying the sacraments of their life and power.  So the proper interpretation of passages like those and others has to be something more than the very narrow interpretation you seem to take for granted.
Baptism with water or baptism with Holy Spirit? These are two different things.

Where are you getting that?

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Holy scripture makes clear difference between the tow and saints do as well.

Perhaps you are misunderstanding them.

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After all, if we were born of God through baptism with water why do we still sin? St John clearly says that born of God will not sin. Thus, if we sin we are not born of God.

Romans 7.

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I cannot say I have read St Symeon or St Gabriel widely, but I have read enough of and about Elder Joseph the Hesychast to say that I would disagree with an interpretation of his life and thought that would claim that "saints" are incapable of sinning while living in this world.
There's a newly canonized saint of Georgia. His name is st Ilia the righteous. He is one of the most beloved poets and writers of Georgia who has fought for Georgia's independence. St Ilia the righteous wrote a poem about an ascetic. This ascetic was so advanced in his podvigs that he could see the evil approaching from afar. At the end, he is seduced by a woman and this ascetic falls into a grave sin. There's a real story related to this. St Gabirel once was walking and he was seen to be "irritated" by another holy man. The other asked to him: Gabriel what happened. St Gabriel loved St Ilia. He said, how could he wright such a thing? Did he not know that such a monk would never fall into sin?

I don't understand your point.  But maybe it's not necessary.  If the Church can make mistakes when canonising saints, I don't need to consider any of these examples.  Maybe they're not saints at all. 

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As far as St Joseph the hesichast goes you can listen to this video which is the passage from one of the books of Ephraim of Arizona (who in my humble opinion is another leaving saint). Listen to it and you will see how clearly it is stated by this saint that once by God's Grace saints "step into" this supernatural state (which is infinitely beyond our imagination and logic) they no more sin. St Joseph talks about three states of man: fallen, natural (in which state Adam was) and supernatural. So, man by God's Grace becomes much more than Adam was and he can detect any evil approaching him far far away. .

I have read Elder Ephraim's biography of Elder Joseph from cover to cover, and in its pages I have not come across your view that saints cannot sin.  On the contrary, his emphasis on obedience to one's elder and constant vigilance and prayer reinforce the idea that, no matter how holy one has become, one is always capable of falling away without these and other virtues. 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2017, 01:31:17 PM »
Why would God sanctify someone only to take it away later in life? God sees the future and would have never sanctified that person to begin with. Common sense. No?

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2017, 01:31:44 PM »
Why would God sanctify someone only to take it away later in life? God sees the future and would have never sanctified that person to begin with. Common sense. No?

No.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2017, 01:34:01 PM »
Why would God sanctify someone only to take it away later in life? God sees the future and would have never sanctified that person to begin with. Common sense. No?

If this were the mechanism of life, there would be no mortal life. God foresees all, controls all, and man has no role? -- that's contrary to our experience and the experience of the saints. It's also contrary to sound theology. Even Christ in the garden gives us a powerful example of what mortal life is really like in relationship to God -- one of human will relating to God's will and that relationship having its ups and downs.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2017, 10:05:40 AM »
Since you refer us to the saints, I ask you:

Did the saints confess their sins while on earth? 

Did they cease to confess sins after they achieved sanctity?
Once a man becomes saint by the Grace of God there's no more sin to confess. A saint, based what I have read, does not forget that the were sinful, but after he/she becomes permanent dwelling temple of God they will sin no more and nothing else is to confess.

Do you agree that saints teach there's a point when saints become permanent Temple of Holy Spirit and their will is totally subdued to God's Will and they have no will that is contrary to God's Will? If you do not can you bring a quote from a saint stating otherwise?

If you do agree than who's will is going to sin in them?   

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We know them to be saints only after they die, after we see the outcome of their lives, after the Church recognises the holiness of their lives.  But until they die in holiness (i.e., are born into eternal life), it is possible for them to fall away, or to fall away and to repent again.  The sanctifying action of the Holy Spirit in the life of a person does not impede or negate their free will.
I do not agree. The Church only canonizes a saint. Besides, they can make errors. The Church has canonized figures that have not been saints and He has "de-canonized" those who were saints.

Can you provide some examples of each?
Sure. I know one example for sure. There was a monk who was glorified as a saint in Georgian Orthodox Church in XII century by the time when spirituality was at its Zenith and She has given birth to many well known saints of Georgia. Later, in about XVII century (when spiritual life of Georgian Orthodox Church was in great trouble) this monk was considered to be a heretic and he was removed from the list of saints. Well, this monk could not have been a saint and heretic at the same time. So, somewhere Church must have made a mistake.

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If the Church as a whole can err on this question, then its individual members can err.  In that case, how could you even know who was a saint?  You tell me to consider the lives and writings of St Symeon, St Gabriel, St Seraphim, St Barbara, and Elder Joseph, but I only know them through the Church.  What if the Church is wrong about them too?
I have faith that all of those saints are real saints and I ask their intercession. I glorify them as saints of God. This is what matters for me. I don't see any problem in your questions. Of course, I can't know for sure since I have not given any revelation about their sainthood. But as I have faith for Godhood of Jesus Christ (which was not reviled to me by God as it reviled to saints, though I am very confident my faith is from God) so I have faith in their sainthood. 

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For starters, your passages from St John refer to being "born of God" or "begotten of God", and we know from his other writings that this concept is linked to baptism.  In baptism, we die and are raised with Christ, given new life through the Holy Spirit who cries within us "Abba, Father", and we receive the Body and Blood of Christ, becoming one with God.  That is literally theosis.  But when we think of theosis, we often think of it in monastic terms, as the culmination of a long journey along the path of asceticism and renunciation.  Obviously that's also part of it, both for monks and for laypeople, but we cannot regard that as our primary conception of theosis without emptying the sacraments of their life and power.  So the proper interpretation of passages like those and others has to be something more than the very narrow interpretation you seem to take for granted.
Baptism with water or baptism with Holy Spirit? These are two different things.

Where are you getting that?
For example, st Symeon refers to his adversaries, those who ridiculed his teachings, that they were not born with second birth by Holy Spirit. Why would he say that to christians who were baptized if by baptism they had received Holy Spirit? I do have faith that Baptism is very important mystery for a christian to be saved and it is absolutely necessary, that without it we can't be saved. But when st Symeon talks about second birth it is not what we mean by baptism. Besides, even in book of Acts it is clear that in baptism by water Holy Spirit does not descend on people, like in chapter 8 when St Philip baptized them. Later St John and Peter have to pray for this to happen. In any case, people receive baptism and rarely they percieve Holy Spirit coming down on them.

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2017, 10:13:37 AM »
If this were the mechanism of life, there would be no mortal life. God foresees all, controls all, and man has no role? -- that's contrary to our experience and the experience of the saints. It's also contrary to sound theology. Even Christ in the garden gives us a powerful example of what mortal life is really like in relationship to God -- one of human will relating to God's will and that relationship having its ups and downs.
As Christ's human will is in full accord to His Divine Will so by the Grace of God saint's will is in full accord with God's will. How can a man sin when his will is always to fulfill God's will?

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2017, 10:29:09 AM »
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I cannot say I have read St Symeon or St Gabriel widely, but I have read enough of and about Elder Joseph the Hesychast to say that I would disagree with an interpretation of his life and thought that would claim that "saints" are incapable of sinning while living in this world.
There's a newly canonized saint of Georgia. His name is st Ilia the righteous. He is one of the most beloved poets and writers of Georgia who has fought for Georgia's independence. St Ilia the righteous wrote a poem about an ascetic. This ascetic was so advanced in his podvigs that he could see the evil approaching from afar. At the end, he is seduced by a woman and this ascetic falls into a grave sin. There's a real story related to this. St Gabirel once was walking and he was seen to be "irritated" by another holy man. The other asked to him: Gabriel what happened. St Gabriel loved St Ilia. He said, how could he wright such a thing? Did he not know that such a monk would never fall into sin?

I don't understand your point.  But maybe it's not necessary.  If the Church can make mistakes when canonising saints, I don't need to consider any of these examples.  Maybe they're not saints at all.
My point is st Gabriel said clearly and unambiguously that a monk Georgian poet has described will never sin.

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As far as St Joseph the hesichast goes you can listen to this video which is the passage from one of the books of Ephraim of Arizona (who in my humble opinion is another leaving saint). Listen to it and you will see how clearly it is stated by this saint that once by God's Grace saints "step into" this supernatural state (which is infinitely beyond our imagination and logic) they no more sin. St Joseph talks about three states of man: fallen, natural (in which state Adam was) and supernatural. So, man by God's Grace becomes much more than Adam was and he can detect any evil approaching him far far away. .

I have read Elder Ephraim's biography of Elder Joseph from cover to cover, and in its pages I have not come across your view that saints cannot sin.  On the contrary, his emphasis on obedience to one's elder and constant vigilance and prayer reinforce the idea that, no matter how holy one has become, one is always capable of falling away without these and other virtues.
I've just finished reading st Joseph's letters "Monastic Wisdom". Yes, the saint emphasizes great importance of obedience but this is for those who are on the path of sainthood not for those who have already become perfect by the Grace of God through spiritual fathers. He also clearly says that once a man becomes permanent temple for Holy Spirit (at a stage that he calls perfection through perfecting Grace) he is out of all danger and he will not fall any more. You can read this in several places of his book "Monastic Wisdom" and especially the tenth letter to a monk where he talks about different state of human nature (against nature, natural, and above nature) and different aspects of Grace (purifying, illuminating and perfecting). I have linked a video in my previous posts. Same is said there. These are not my words. These are saint's words. Please, explain to me, how else can you interpret his words? (especially what he says after 17th minute to the end)

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2017, 10:32:04 AM »
I think a saint it is who realise all his sin before his death and confess them.
I realize all my sins by the Grace of God though can't resist to sinning every day. Does that make me a saint? Or do you not know that you are a sinner?

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2017, 11:21:52 AM »
I think a saint it is who realise all his sin before his death and confess them.
I realize all my sins by the Grace of God though can't resist to sinning every day. Does that make me a saint? Or do you not know that you are a sinner?

I am a sinner, but i don't know how much i sin every day, sure that i do some stuff and don't realise that i am making a sin. I doubt thay you realise or your sin.

Offline ativan

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2017, 11:32:47 AM »
I think a saint it is who realise all his sin before his death and confess them.
I realize all my sins by the Grace of God though can't resist to sinning every day. Does that make me a saint? Or do you not know that you are a sinner?

I am a sinner, but i don't know how much i sin every day, sure that i do some stuff and don't realise that i am making a sin. I doubt thay you realise or your sin.
Oh, yes, I realize. Even if I did not, if I did realize it though and I still sinned I would be a saint based on your understanding, right?

Offline youssef

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2017, 11:40:47 AM »
I think a saint it is who realise all his sin before his death and confess them.
I realize all my sins by the Grace of God though can't resist to sinning every day. Does that make me a saint? Or do you not know that you are a sinner?

I am a sinner, but i don't know how much i sin every day, sure that i do some stuff and don't realise that i am making a sin. I doubt thay you realise or your sin.
Oh, yes, I realize. Even if I did not, if I did realize it though and I still sinned I would be a saint based on your understanding, right?

We all will become saint after purification. Some people will make purification on earth. So if you realise all your sin and confess them on earth you will become a saint.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2017, 04:13:41 PM »
I think a saint it is who realise all his sin before his death and confess them.
I realize all my sins by the Grace of God though can't resist to sinning every day. Does that make me a saint? Or do you not know that you are a sinner?

I am a sinner, but i don't know how much i sin every day, sure that i do some stuff and don't realise that i am making a sin. I doubt thay you realise or your sin.
Oh, yes, I realize. Even if I did not, if I did realize it though and I still sinned I would be a saint based on your understanding, right?

I don't think anyone here is saying you're a saint. I'm not sure where you got that. However, as Youssef implies above, anyone in heaven is a saint; a saint is different from a Saint, both are saved and saints but the latter is commemorated. Of the uncommemorated saints we have faith there are and will be myriads. May we be among them.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Quinault

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2017, 10:58:48 PM »
My personal opinion is that the ability or lack thereof of a saint to sin means very little in comparison to what they do to remedy that sin.

Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2017, 06:21:51 AM »
YES A SAINT CAN SIN.
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Can a saint fall into sin?
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2017, 06:28:34 AM »
When does one become a saint?
I can't give you correct answer to that since I'm not a saint. It could be the point when they become permanent vessels for the Holy Spirit. In any case, once they are sanctified and filled with Holy Spirit they will not fall. This is clear from the writings of the Saints.

No, it is not clear! What you say is not clear

If it is while they are living, and they through the grace of God have been so blessed, it is still possible for them to sin and fall, and to lose this. I recommend reading of Saint Gregory PAlamas if you have not already  I think it will help understand better

edit: m,aybe I misunderstand you, do you mean a saint after he is glorified (as recognized by the Church), or before?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 06:37:01 AM by Gunnarr »
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