Author Topic: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?  (Read 2343 times)

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Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #90 on: August 01, 2017, 09:57:40 AM »
The kind of hopeful universalism of Starets Silouan and Fyodor Dostoevsky is right now the only kind of christianity that I don't find nihilistic.
Interesting, can you describe their kind of universalism further? By Dosteosvsky do you mean Elder Zosima from TBK? I dont know anything about St. Silouan.
Yes I mean Zosima. But also Furst Myshkin and Alyosha and Dostoevsky himself talking through these characters. He knew nihilism and how to battle it. And remember, I who am in a Nietzsche period, Nietzsche admired Dostoevsky more than all other writers, philosophers and psychologists, saying that Dostoevsky was the One he had encountered who could really teach him something. Silouan is almost Dostoevsky's vision embodied. I really recommend you read him and Sophrony's book about him. He, Isaac Syrian and St Francis of Assisi are my favorite saints. And Gregory of Nyssa of course... There is no tendency towards sadism here. Here is from Sophrony's book on Silouan:

"I remember a conversation between him and a certain hermit, who declared with evident satisfaction, ‘God will punish all atheists. They will burn in everlasting fire.’

Obviously upset, The Staretz said:

‘Tell me, supposing you went to paradise and there looked down and saw somebody burning in hell-fire – would you feel happy?’

‘It can’t be helped. It would be their own fault,’ said the hermit.

The Staretz answered him with a sorrowful countenance:

‘Love could not bear that,’ he said. ‘We must pray for all’"

And here is another quote by Silouan:

“If the Lord saved you along with the entire multitude of your brethren, and one of the enemies of Christ and the Church remained in the outer darkness, would you not, along with all the others, set yourself to imploring the Lord to save this one unrepentant brother? If you would not beseech Him day and night, then your heart is of iron—but there is no need for iron in paradise.”

For Silouan; embracing the whole cosmos, loving all, and particularly the commandment to love ones enemies was the most important thing of all.

Read this in the link as a foretaste, it is written by Kalistos Ware:
https://orthodoxcityhermit.com/tag/st-silouan-and-our-relationship-as-humans-with-the-animals/
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 10:04:25 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline RobS

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #91 on: August 01, 2017, 10:04:23 AM »
Thanks beebs, is this the St. Silouan book you are talking about?

https://www.amazon.com/Saint-Silouan-Athonite-Archimandrite-Sophrony/dp/0881411957/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1501596149&sr=8-1&keywords=silouan+sophrony

I like Francis of Assisi too. I'll read your link later if I have the time. I'm posting from a phone.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #92 on: August 01, 2017, 10:06:04 AM »
Thanks beebs, is this the St. Silouan book you are talking about?

https://www.amazon.com/Saint-Silouan-Athonite-Archimandrite-Sophrony/dp/0881411957/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1501596149&sr=8-1&keywords=silouan+sophrony

I like Francis of Assisi too. I'll read your link later if I have the time. I'm posting from a phone.
That is the Book! I recommend it deeply. And I also really recommend the link I posted. Kallistos Ware is quite good. I guess you know about him?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 10:06:16 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Indocern

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #93 on: August 01, 2017, 10:11:44 AM »
The kind of hopeful universalism of Starets Silouan and Fyodor Dostoevsky is right now the only kind of christianity that I don't find nihilistic.
Interesting, can you describe their kind of universalism further? By Dosteosvsky do you mean Elder Zosima from TBK? I dont know anything about St. Silouan.
Yes I mean Zosima. But also Furst Myshkin and Alyosha and Dostoevsky himself talking through these characters. He knew nihilism and how to battle it. And remember, I who am in a Nietzsche period, Nietzsche admired Dostoevsky more than all other writers, philosophers and psychologists, saying that Dostoevsky was the One he had encountered who could really teach him something. Silouan is almost Dostoevsky's vision embodied. I really recommend you read him and Sophrony's book about him. He, Isaac Syrian and St Francis of Assisi are my favorite saints. And Gregory of Nyssa of course... There is no tendency towards sadism here. Here is from Sophrony's book on Silouan:

"I remember a conversation between him and a certain hermit, who declared with evident satisfaction, ‘God will punish all atheists. They will burn in everlasting fire.’

Obviously upset, The Staretz said:

‘Tell me, supposing you went to paradise and there looked down and saw somebody burning in hell-fire – would you feel happy?’

‘It can’t be helped. It would be their own fault,’ said the hermit.

The Staretz answered him with a sorrowful countenance:

‘Love could not bear that,’ he said. ‘We must pray for all’"

And here is another quote by Silouan:

“If the Lord saved you along with the entire multitude of your brethren, and one of the enemies of Christ and the Church remained in the outer darkness, would you not, along with all the others, set yourself to imploring the Lord to save this one unrepentant brother? If you would not beseech Him day and night, then your heart is of iron—but there is no need for iron in paradise.”

For Silouan; embracing the whole cosmos, loving all, and particularly the commandment to love ones enemies was the most important thing of all.

Read this in the link as a foretaste, it is written by Kalistos Ware:
https://orthodoxcityhermit.com/tag/st-silouan-and-our-relationship-as-humans-with-the-animals/

How one would know what is in Heaven? All experience that believers told to the world never been experience with body. Soul, spirit and mind can get fake visions. If somebody tell you that he have been in Heaven with his body and there feel completely different then I think you can believe. But he must confess it is the same way that he is in earth with the body. But who will give him new body for the trip to Heaven if his body is on earth. Even in the Bible for person who have been to Heaven is said that he don't know if it is with or without body.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 10:13:28 AM by Indocern »

Offline RobS

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #94 on: August 01, 2017, 10:44:57 AM »
beebs is going to be OC.net's next busybody!
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #95 on: August 01, 2017, 11:30:02 AM »
The kind of hopeful universalism of Starets Silouan and Fyodor Dostoevsky is right now the only kind of christianity that I don't find nihilistic.
Interesting, can you describe their kind of universalism further? By Dosteosvsky do you mean Elder Zosima from TBK? I dont know anything about St. Silouan.
Yes I mean Zosima. But also Furst Myshkin and Alyosha and Dostoevsky himself talking through these characters. He knew nihilism and how to battle it. And remember, I who am in a Nietzsche period, Nietzsche admired Dostoevsky more than all other writers, philosophers and psychologists, saying that Dostoevsky was the One he had encountered who could really teach him something. Silouan is almost Dostoevsky's vision embodied. I really recommend you read him and Sophrony's book about him. He, Isaac Syrian and St Francis of Assisi are my favorite saints. And Gregory of Nyssa of course... There is no tendency towards sadism here. Here is from Sophrony's book on Silouan:

"I remember a conversation between him and a certain hermit, who declared with evident satisfaction, ‘God will punish all atheists. They will burn in everlasting fire.’

Obviously upset, The Staretz said:

‘Tell me, supposing you went to paradise and there looked down and saw somebody burning in hell-fire – would you feel happy?’

‘It can’t be helped. It would be their own fault,’ said the hermit.

The Staretz answered him with a sorrowful countenance:

‘Love could not bear that,’ he said. ‘We must pray for all’"

And here is another quote by Silouan:

“If the Lord saved you along with the entire multitude of your brethren, and one of the enemies of Christ and the Church remained in the outer darkness, would you not, along with all the others, set yourself to imploring the Lord to save this one unrepentant brother? If you would not beseech Him day and night, then your heart is of iron—but there is no need for iron in paradise.”

For Silouan; embracing the whole cosmos, loving all, and particularly the commandment to love ones enemies was the most important thing of all.

Read this in the link as a foretaste, it is written by Kalistos Ware:
https://orthodoxcityhermit.com/tag/st-silouan-and-our-relationship-as-humans-with-the-animals/

How one would know what is in Heaven? All experience that believers told to the world never been experience with body. Soul, spirit and mind can get fake visions. If somebody tell you that he have been in Heaven with his body and there feel completely different then I think you can believe. But he must confess it is the same way that he is in earth with the body. But who will give him new body for the trip to Heaven if his body is on earth. Even in the Bible for person who have been to Heaven is said that he don't know if it is with or without body.
I don't quite understand how this has to do with what I wrote
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Indocern

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #96 on: August 01, 2017, 11:36:43 AM »
“If the Lord saved you along with the entire multitude of your brethren, and one of the enemies of Christ and the Church remained in the outer darkness, would you not, along with all the others, set yourself to imploring the Lord to save this one unrepentant brother? If you would not beseech Him day and night, then your heart is of iron—but there is no need for iron in paradise.”

Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #97 on: August 02, 2017, 04:01:59 AM »
“If the Lord saved you along with the entire multitude of your brethren, and one of the enemies of Christ and the Church remained in the outer darkness, would you not, along with all the others, set yourself to imploring the Lord to save this one unrepentant brother? If you would not beseech Him day and night, then your heart is of iron—but there is no need for iron in paradise.”
It is symbolic for a hardened heart. And as you see, it is the "christian" who rejoice in People going to hell rather than a Nietzsche who Silouan here is talking about
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #98 on: August 14, 2017, 01:15:13 AM »
I often worry I have to face all those non Christians I judged atleast I can judge less and repent and obtain mercy. I believe it is judging others if I think less of non Christians as humans and love them less. If I make a distinction in my heart of who to love more even though we need to be wise I believe it is judging. I feel that I can hurt a person feelings to make them bad. I don't want to influence anyone to be immoral even though he be non Christian and not converting. I feel it is unfair that they were not born Christian though God judgement will be fair as it is unfair that they were not born Christian I feel bad to judge them and make them immoral not that I know that is possible people tell me I do not make them immoral I hope they are right. It is wrong to crown Christians with righteousness who were never judged and judge non Christians who were judged even though you should care for morality anyway.But it is christ command to accept Him I can not change His law which He knows is fair
I wish I could preach for example non Christians do not need to accept Christ unless they know without a doubt He is the truth and Christ teaches salvation only through Him I would say unless they know they will go to hell if they don't but that takes away free will maybe I am not sure because who would not try to be good if he knows he will be judged. So I wish I could preach they don't need to seek the truth if they have not known Christ is the truth and He teaches salvation only for those who believe He is God because I feel it is unfair they feel judged and does not help them be righteous