Author Topic: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?  (Read 2141 times)

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Offline hecma925

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2017, 12:29:59 AM »
A few days after the attacks, a viral video went around of a mass Coptic protest where they used part of an Islamic shehada with a Christian response:  "La Illaha illa Allah...w'al Massih howa Allah!" (There is no God but Allah, and the Christ is Allah!)

I'd like to see that video. 
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2017, 02:04:46 AM »
I have no problems with there being a vengeful God. In fact, I'm glad that there is one. It makes God more relatable, as far as I am concerned. Nevertheless, I don't find this to be mutually exclusive to universal salvation. Not only do I hope all will be saved, but at some point, I think all will be saved. A lot of people go on and on about the love of God to the near exclusion of his jealousy, anger, etc. these days. They even ignore Jesus' wrath in the Temple. And the people who tend to propose this obfuscated view, are all too often associated with feel-goody vague philanthropies. And those type of people tend to be the most tyrannical of all, for anyone who doesn't accord with their kindness must necessarily be evil and must be fought. They are, at least in my experience, incapable of appreciating complexity nor the limitations of their own judicial capacities, which God has endowed them with.

But again, yes, not only do I hope all will be saved, I fully expect they will be at some point.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 02:12:48 AM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2017, 02:42:07 AM »
I have no problems with there being a vengeful God. In fact, I'm glad that there is one. It makes God more relatable, as far as I am concerned. Nevertheless, I don't find this to be mutually exclusive to universal salvation. Not only do I hope all will be saved, but at some point, I think all will be saved. A lot of people go on and on about the love of God to the near exclusion of his jealousy, anger, etc. these days. They even ignore Jesus' wrath in the Temple. And the people who tend to propose this obfuscated view, are all too often associated with feel-goody vague philanthropies. And those type of people tend to be the most tyrannical of all, for anyone who doesn't accord with their kindness must necessarily be evil and must be fought. They are, at least in my experience, incapable of appreciating complexity nor the limitations of their own judicial capacities, which God has endowed them with.

But again, yes, not only do I hope all will be saved, I fully expect they will be at some point.

+1


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Offline sestir

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2017, 05:37:15 AM »
I have no problems with there being a vengeful God.

May I ask a question since a lot of Orthodox people are supposed to frequent this forum...
Would it be unOrthodox to hold the exact opposite firm conviction that God is not vengeful at all but striving for maximum justice irregardless of his own feelings? And wouldn't it make God's ministry a whole lot harder, to make him out as a potential threat and a problem, for isn't a vengeful person considered a problem in most societies? Is this your application of the golden rule to your best friend or to your foe?

On topic: Isn't Paul (from Tarsos who wrote many of the NT epistles) an example of approximately where, along the highway to hell, it becomes impossible to turn back?

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2017, 06:02:48 AM »
I have no problems with there being a vengeful God.

May I ask a question since a lot of Orthodox people are supposed to frequent this forum...
Would it be unOrthodox to hold the exact opposite firm conviction that God is not vengeful at all but striving for maximum justice irregardless of his own feelings? And wouldn't it make God's ministry a whole lot harder, to make him out as a potential threat and a problem, for isn't a vengeful person considered a problem in most societies? Is this your application of the golden rule to your best friend or to your foe?

On topic: Isn't Paul (from Tarsos who wrote many of the NT epistles) an example of approximately where, along the highway to hell, it becomes impossible to turn back?


I'm not very clear about your overall question. But I would point out that the Orthodox view of God does not admit such a dichotomy as you present between God's nature and God's will. This is one of the fundamental differences between Orthodoxy and most Western Protestant views of God. God's will is not somehow bound by His nature. Justice and love are not at war with each other.

Selam
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2017, 06:31:17 AM »
Jesus assures us that He is just when He says assuredly I say to you you shall not get out of there until you have payed the last penny. Therefore if they are in the tormenting regions of hell supposing there is some less tormenting it is because they are not truly repentant and they would never have come to God within the number of years of life they deserve no matter how blessed their life is but if they are truly repentant it means their previous actions do not truly represent fully who they are.  Still it is appointed to men once to die and afterwards the judgement. Some think only satan and those who reject God till death are those who make full choice. So it is possible people make their full choice now. 
Therefore they will never have any peace. Otherwise I think they will not go to heaven but they won't have as much torment in hell though all hell is bad.

One can deceive himself that he is a good person so has nothing to worry about. Many people can convince themselves evil is good

But do I hope that all be saved ? Only if heaven will still be heaven with them in it and if they are really good. I wish all those to be saved who seem to have perished who were not treated fairly who have a good excuse. Note I said good excuse because not every excuse though understandable may be acceptable. But we can not assume people are not treated fairly

Just some thoughts I could be wrong


« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 06:34:31 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline sestir

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2017, 06:38:02 AM »
This is one of the fundamental differences between Orthodoxy and most Western Protestant views of God.

I think it's a difference between people of the book (such as Orthodox Christians, Karaite Jews, Western Protestants and Shia Muslims) on the one hand, and heathens (atheists, agnostics, humanists and others) on the other hand, the second group being in majority throughout earth by far and one we must avoid being misunderstood by. In other words, most people presume that revenge increases global injustice.

This is not my own definition or perception of the meaning of the word but I find that most people around me are of this opinion:
Quote from: General Wesc
Revenge is poison. Revenge doesn't benefit anyone. Punishment and accountability are all good and well but revenge is simply an expression of hate through hurting somebody.
Everything2.com

Would we really want God to be associated with such a negatively charged concept?

Offline sestir

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2017, 06:46:36 AM »
I'm not very clear about your overall question. But I would point out that the Orthodox view of God does not admit such a dichotomy as you present between God's nature and God's will. [...]

Curiously, I feel pretty sure I understand your answer right, as saying: it depends on the definition of "revenge" where a Christian will presume that divine revenge is just, whereas other groups might presume something else. In any case thanks for the answer!  :)

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2017, 06:54:40 AM »
Revenge is not justice if the person should be saved. God loves those He judges but they must be judged for the good of the world.
God does take vengeance but only when their time is fulfilled
If He kept forgiving people even after given many chances it might continue too long for all or much good to be destroyed

Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2017, 09:25:14 AM »
The great objection I have towards eternal hell and the eternal perdition of even one soul is that I believe we are all responsible for the perishing of this one soul. If one man perishes, I feel that I am too guilty for that. And I have a Hard time imagining a paradise of eternal bliss and brotherly love as long as there is suffering in the universe... But perhaps that is just me. I am a lawless person and have lived a lawless life, and I think that has resulted in that I feel more sympathy for the judged than the judge. Sometimes I have the feeling that those who are Most in danger of perdition, are those who wish eternal hell for others but Believe that they themselves Will be saved. And this tendency have been quite common in Christian history to be honest. I cant stand cruelty. And I dont accept the idea that God is cruel. Many Christians in history have terrorised others with eternal torment in hell, saying that they will go there, while believing that they themselves Will be spared. That seems somewhat strange to me. Many people  (the Church especially in the west during the middle ages, but also modern protestant denominations in especially America) have oppressed and controlled People with the threats of damnation, and it seems like the psychological instinct behind this is often a sadistic one based on a Will to power.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #55 on: June 15, 2017, 09:36:57 AM »
I mean... How can I possibly serve another person in unfeigned humility if I seriously regard his sinfulness as worse than my own? The Will of God, even how hard it is to follow, is that man shall defeat his enemies by loving them, not by sending them to hell.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 09:39:37 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Jude1:3

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #56 on: June 15, 2017, 09:46:46 AM »
A Scripture to consider :

According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay,
Fury to His adversaries,
Recompense to His Enemies;
The coastlands He will fully repay.
• Isaiah 59:18


It's foreign to us because we love God but there are people in the world who are enemies of God.


The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your Enemies Your footstool.”
• Psalm 110:1

The people who take the mark of the beast and worship the beast are God's Enemies in Revelation.

Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #57 on: June 15, 2017, 09:57:40 AM »
A Scripture to consider :

According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay,
Fury to His adversaries,
Recompense to His Enemies;
The coastlands He will fully repay.
• Isaiah 59:18


It's foreign to us because we love God but there are people in the world who are enemies of God.


The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your Enemies Your footstool.”
• Psalm 110:1

The people who take the mark of the beast and worship the beast are God's Enemies in Revelation.
Yes But perhaps we have a tendency to project our fallen human since of concepts like "repay ", "vengeance", etc? I am not denying that the bible is full of passages that seems to indicate eternal hell, but what I am saying is that we should not Hope for anyone to suffer forever. We have all been God's enemies. The perdition of Another soul is also partly on me. I too am responsible for it in a way.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 09:59:30 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Jude1:3

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #58 on: June 15, 2017, 10:16:29 AM »
A Scripture to consider :

According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay,
Fury to His adversaries,
Recompense to His Enemies;
The coastlands He will fully repay.
• Isaiah 59:18


It's foreign to us because we love God but there are people in the world who are enemies of God.


The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your Enemies Your footstool.”
• Psalm 110:1

The people who take the mark of the beast and worship the beast are God's Enemies in Revelation.
Yes But perhaps we have a tendency to project our fallen human since of concepts like "repay ", "vengeance", etc? I am not denying that the bible is full of passages that seems to indicate eternal hell, but what I am saying is that we should not Hope for anyone to suffer forever. We have all been God's enemies. The perdition of Another soul is also partly on me. I too am responsible for it in a way.


You're right.

It's hard for us as Christians to really even imagine that there are people in the world that have sunken to such levels of evil that they are going to actually try and fight against The Lord at His return:

Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:

• Psalm 2:1-5

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #59 on: June 15, 2017, 10:21:50 AM »
You don't get harassed for bacon? Why is that an exception?

I meant to say no one makes bacon in Egypt as far as I'm aware
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 10:22:07 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #60 on: June 15, 2017, 10:29:16 AM »
A few days after the attacks, a viral video went around of a mass Coptic protest where they used part of an Islamic shehada with a Christian response:  "La Illaha illa Allah...w'al Massih howa Allah!" (There is no God but Allah, and the Christ is Allah!)

I'd like to see that video.

https://twitter.com/gmakary99/status/869691153569898496
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #61 on: June 15, 2017, 10:50:53 AM »
I have no problems with there being a vengeful God.

May I ask a question since a lot of Orthodox people are supposed to frequent this forum...
Would it be unOrthodox to hold the exact opposite firm conviction that God is not vengeful at all but striving for maximum justice irregardless of his own feelings? And wouldn't it make God's ministry a whole lot harder, to make him out as a potential threat and a problem, for isn't a vengeful person considered a problem in most societies? Is this your application of the golden rule to your best friend or to your foe?

On topic: Isn't Paul (from Tarsos who wrote many of the NT epistles) an example of approximately where, along the highway to hell, it becomes impossible to turn back?


I'm not very clear about your overall question. But I would point out that the Orthodox view of God does not admit such a dichotomy as you present between God's nature and God's will. This is one of the fundamental differences between Orthodoxy and most Western Protestant views of God. God's will is not somehow bound by His nature. Justice and love are not at war with each other.

Selam

I was wondering if you can expand on this, specifically the idea that God's will is not bound by His nature
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #62 on: June 15, 2017, 11:02:18 AM »
I'm not very clear about your overall question. But I would point out that the Orthodox view of God does not admit such a dichotomy as you present between God's nature and God's will. [...]

Curiously, I feel pretty sure I understand your answer right, as saying: it depends on the definition of "revenge" where a Christian will presume that divine revenge is just, whereas other groups might presume something else. In any case thanks for the answer!  :)

I tend to think that based on the incomprehensible nature of God, God is vengeful in a way we are not able to fathom.  Our vengeance (and wrath) are usually from human weakness, and there are very few reasons to be wrathful or vengeful, if possible that we can reach such a spiritual state to allow ourselves these characteristics.  But we don't model God based on our behavior; we model our behavior based on God.  Therefore, I'm not sure we can say he's "relatable" on that end.  I could be wrong, but that is the way I think of these passages.

Sometimes I wonder if real vengeance is conversion.  Christian vengeance on Saul is that he became Paul, not destroyed, but renewed.  I've heard it said before vengeance should be against the demons alone.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 11:08:19 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #63 on: June 15, 2017, 11:11:04 AM »
You don't get harassed for bacon? Why is that an exception?

I meant to say no one makes bacon in Egypt as far as I'm aware
I think I now understand why there is so much violence over there.
God bless!

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #64 on: June 15, 2017, 11:13:35 AM »
Too soon bro
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #65 on: June 15, 2017, 12:04:30 PM »
I'm sorry.  I opened it up for that, please forgive me.    :-[

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #66 on: June 16, 2017, 10:25:08 PM »
I'm sorry.  I opened it up for that, please forgive me.    :-[
No you didn't. Don't blame yourself.
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Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
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Offline youssef

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #67 on: June 17, 2017, 07:11:40 AM »
You don't get harassed for bacon? Why is that an exception?

Off the top of my head there is nothing in the Arab world that equates with bacon.  The closest pork products in family resemblance of food come from Greece.

I don't know if Egyptians do this, and I'm.not a butcher so I don't know the equivalence: but you may be able to do a pork awarma if you want to experience an Arabic styled breakfast with pork

maybe they should try raw liver pork ;D In levant we eat raw liver lamb in breakfast.

Offline youssef

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #68 on: June 17, 2017, 07:31:28 AM »
I think now that the coptic church have many problem. One of the essential problem was defending sissi, and not just defending. For example father Makari younan was just like a ...... to sissi. And the intellectual copt in egypt are getting more and more far from this church. Some coptic friend say to me that the church is so much corrupt because that they go to be protestant or atheist i don't know if what they say is true.
The problem of the coptic church exist the same in the majority of oriental churches in some way.

Hoping that all the people be saved is a difficult thing to hope. maybe it come with time the majority of us now maybe cannot forgive the neighbor.

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #69 on: June 17, 2017, 10:59:25 AM »
Going to a Protestant church is different to being Protestant. You can believe the sacraments may be necessary or even that they are  so you don't abandon them but you don't have to judge Protestants that you think because you don't tell them they have no salvation without the church that it is not God's job to save them.  Why are you not able to understand this or admit this ?
You have to dialogue with Protestants if you want to encourage them to grow and perhaps come to unity of faith. Jesus said a kingdom divided against itself will not stand

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #70 on: June 17, 2017, 08:21:11 PM »
maybe they should try raw liver pork ;D In levant we eat raw liver lamb in breakfast.
?
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #71 on: June 26, 2017, 11:23:00 AM »
You also need not worry that good non Christians will not go to heaven but sinners will go to heaven. This is how satan deceives Christians and also those who don't want to follow God to convince them they are right. For example there could be a child from a non Christian family who is good obeys certain commandments like not doing some big sins but he disobeys a big commandment which is not to judge and to love others. Another child also from a non Christian family may have commited some big sins but he loves God and his neighbor as proved by his ability to be repentant and sorry for his sin.  The second child because he loves God not just in pretense will have no problem accepting Jesus
As Jesus said a man had 2 sons. The approved one was the one though he initially disobeyed he later obeyed because he loves his father while the other who seemed like the honourable son never did the will of the father because he did not love him. He is not condemned so much because he judges others without knowing he is being evil but because he has his own sins he does not want to repent of. Like the older son in the parable of the prodigal son and the Pharisee who judged the tax collector they did not actually love the father but wanted honor from Him above others by knowing His laws
those are the only people rejected by God who hate Him without a cause. If they are non Christian because they never knew what is required of them (maybe related to those in the 11th hour in the parable of the workers of the vineyard) they would not be judged as those who are wilfully ignorant they might even be saved or have little condemnation if they  deserve any or go to limbo or perish but such people I do not think exist as Jesus explains in parable of the workers of the vineyard God Himself finds such people as characterised by those people in the 11th hour who are ignorant   

So I don't know if anyone's hell will be little suffering because I think God may make sure those who want to obey God but do not know they need to He will make sure they know His will
But those who don't want to obey God maybe they will not know without preaching

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #72 on: June 26, 2017, 11:43:31 AM »
The one who does not love God above his father hates God without a cause. For that means he would love his father more even if he is evil while God is good. You have to trust God will come out good. He will overcome when He is judged

Also because I said you don't have to worry this does not mean you can sin with others and you are not responsible who knows if you will repent sufficiently for God to reach them but they are responsible for themselves and I don't know all the answers
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 11:46:07 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #73 on: June 26, 2017, 02:42:16 PM »
Some non Christians will however not know what God requires of them unless we repent but if we are saved there is no way they will not know I think

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #74 on: June 27, 2017, 12:44:48 AM »
I have no problems with there being a vengeful God.

May I ask a question since a lot of Orthodox people are supposed to frequent this forum...
Would it be unOrthodox to hold the exact opposite firm conviction that God is not vengeful at all but striving for maximum justice irregardless of his own feelings? And wouldn't it make God's ministry a whole lot harder, to make him out as a potential threat and a problem, for isn't a vengeful person considered a problem in most societies? Is this your application of the golden rule to your best friend or to your foe?

On topic: Isn't Paul (from Tarsos who wrote many of the NT epistles) an example of approximately where, along the highway to hell, it becomes impossible to turn back?


I'm not very clear about your overall question. But I would point out that the Orthodox view of God does not admit such a dichotomy as you present between God's nature and God's will. This is one of the fundamental differences between Orthodoxy and most Western Protestant views of God. God's will is not somehow bound by His nature. Justice and love are not at war with each other.

Selam

I was wondering if you can expand on this, specifically the idea that God's will is not bound by His nature

I guess I was trying to refute the voluntarism concept that pits the divine will against the divine nature. My understanding is that such a notion is unorthodox.

Selam
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #75 on: June 27, 2017, 08:50:11 AM »
I did not mean to give the impression God does not love the sinner but I meant sinners can be righteous  and it is my hope that what I said about God giving special favor to certain non Christians is true whether it is or not I still hope for the same outcome so I want to teach the truth that God may use us also though He may use others
they may have to keep searching for the truth as Jesus said blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. The kingdom of heaven is like a pearl hidden. Therefore you have to seek it to know it it won't just be known to you.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 08:50:54 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #76 on: June 27, 2017, 09:09:30 AM »
He may give favor to certain people who He thinks deserves it but that is not the normal way everyone is responsible for themselves to seek the truth. Perhaps some are not saved who could have been saved but God is fair and everyone has their own choice. I do not know that but it could be. Actually I think it is likely God gives the same  chance to all and He gives favor to those who He thinks deserves it but does not promise to give favor to everyone who wants to obey the commandments. If they really love the commandments they will accept God. However He will reveal orthodoxy to Protestants if they need it if they are faithful to Him within their ability because they may not know jesus will for them and they are ready to leave all for Jesus and they make the choice to without knowing they had to

If that is the case perhaps no one will get to heaven easily for that may be cruel to those lost. It could be not all are destined for heaven except those who pleased God

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #77 on: August 01, 2017, 03:47:00 AM »
The idea of everybody being saved is far crueler than the idea of some or most people perishing in Hell for eternity. In fact, the day that happens is the day I voluntarily leave Heaven for Hell because I refuse to stand alongside the same person who got to indulge in a life of decadence and sin only to have a change of heart at the very end while I meanwhile busted my behind attempting to follow all of God's ridiculous rules and ordinances. If we all end up in the same place, then what was the point? There is no justice in knowing that the alpha who got to bed how many supermodels and the greedy CEO who made his fortune off of broke college kids like me having to collect carts in the >100 degree weather will not face eternal punishment. Frankly I have much more respect for a crueler, harsher, more vengeful God who pours out his wrath than I do for the loving liberal kind who forgives everything.

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #78 on: August 01, 2017, 04:22:14 AM »
The idea of everybody being saved is far crueler than the idea of some or most people perishing in Hell for eternity. In fact, the day that happens is the day I voluntarily leave Heaven for Hell because I refuse to stand alongside the same person who got to indulge in a life of decadence and sin only to have a change of heart at the very end while I meanwhile busted my behind attempting to follow all of God's ridiculous rules and ordinances. If we all end up in the same place, then what was the point? There is no justice in knowing that the alpha who got to bed how many supermodels and the greedy CEO who made his fortune off of broke college kids like me having to collect carts in the >100 degree weather will not face eternal punishment. Frankly I have much more respect for a crueler, harsher, more vengeful God who pours out his wrath than I do for the loving liberal kind who forgives everything.
Do you like the idea of any those "two" gods though? The whole thing is a mess, both inevitable universalism and inevitable eternal punishment is cruel and in the end absurd. Man is not Casua sui. Christianity agrees with this. And yet I find Christian theology to contradict this by its basic doctrines. It is really a hellish thought to imagine being thrown in to existence without consent by a wrathful God without understanding his true purpose for creating in the first place. A more horrible prison, where I really cant escape but am guilty for just being born and where eternal punishment awaits me if I don't follow this mystical God's demands, is a ridiculous nightmare. The whole reward/punishment thinking is primitve and superficial and often interpreted hedonistically. What is explained if I live forever? I still wonder why I am, and if I am not satisfied with being, I will be punished unless I repent from this pessimism.  This while Justice -thinking, as if justice means "Now I have suffered this much, while he, who is worse than me, hasn't suffered. Life sucks if there isn't going to be any Balance here and 'justification' of suffering. Now it is my turn to experience their blessing and more blessing! And their turn to suffer!". Now, what is even wrong with suffering? Suffering makes it possible for man to reach his highest states and transcend himself. It is the beginning of Most great creative works of art. Yet man refuses to see the suffering element of God in eternity, because he can't simply understand artistic elements of life. In other words, I might really ask : Why is a world without suffering needed for those in bliss? Is that really a bliss, to never suffer? Suffering is what makes it possible for man to reach his heights. That is what superficial thinkers don't understand. Why is a world with suffering bad? Why hope for a world without it? Without struggle, life is meaningless and boring. Great artistic achievements impossible. Everyone with the ambition to master an art knows that. But perhaps you don't appreciate art.
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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #79 on: August 01, 2017, 04:46:42 AM »
The idea of everybody being saved is far crueler than the idea of some or most people perishing in Hell for eternity. In fact, the day that happens is the day I voluntarily leave Heaven for Hell because I refuse to stand alongside the same person who got to indulge in a life of decadence and sin only to have a change of heart at the very end while I meanwhile busted my behind attempting to follow all of God's ridiculous rules and ordinances. If we all end up in the same place, then what was the point? There is no justice in knowing that the alpha who got to bed how many supermodels and the greedy CEO who made his fortune off of broke college kids like me having to collect carts in the >100 degree weather will not face eternal punishment. Frankly I have much more respect for a crueler, harsher, more vengeful God who pours out his wrath than I do for the loving liberal kind who forgives everything.
Do you like the idea of any those "two" gods though? The whole thing is a mess, both inevitable universalism and inevitable eternal punishment is cruel and in the end absurd. Man is not Casua sui. Christianity agrees with this. And yet I find Christian theology to contradict this by its basic doctrines. It is really a hellish thought to imagine being thrown in to existence without consent by a wrathful God without understanding his true purpose for creating in the first place. A more horrible prison, where I really cant escape but am guilty for just being born and where eternal punishment awaits me if I don't follow this mystical God's demands, is a ridiculous nightmare. The whole reward/punishment thinking is primitve and superficial and often interpreted hedonistically. What is explained if I live forever? I still wonder why I am, and if I am not satisfied with being, I will be punished unless I repent from this pessimism.  This while Justice -thinking, as if justice means "Now I have suffered this much, while he, who is worse than me, hasn't suffered. Life sucks if there isn't going to be any Balance here and 'justification' of suffering. Now it is my turn to experience their blessing and more blessing! And their turn to suffer!". Now, what is even wrong with suffering? Suffering makes it possible for man to reach his highest states and transcend himself. It is the beginning of Most great creative works of art. Yet man refuses to see the suffering element of God in eternity, because he can't simply understand artistic elements of life. In other words, I might really ask : Why is a world without suffering needed for those in bliss? Is that really a bliss, to never suffer? Suffering is what makes it possible for man to reach his heights. That is what superficial thinkers don't understand. Why is a world with suffering bad? Why hope for a world without it? Without struggle, life is meaningless and boring. Great artistic achievements impossible. Everyone with the ambition to master an art knows that. But perhaps you don't appreciate art.

God is a Divine Jigsaw. I went into that before and was lauded for it, but I still stand by it. God, as you alluded to, has forced each and everyone of us into a divine game of chess where the repercussions for failure are eternal punishment, all by virtue of simply being born. And without an option to forfeit, at that. We were forced into existence and given no way out. We will either succeed according to his rules or perish by them. Suffering is not bad; far from it. Rather it is existing in a sort of hybridization of neither suffering nor pleasure that is bad, a world of unfeeling and numbness. In other words, the state of the modern world. Yet even so, I long to see the day that the worst sinners like fornicators, abortionists, and pimps are cast into the everlasting fire. Granted, it might be more just to simply annihilate them out of existence after they have suffered for a fair amount of time to atone for their sins while on Earth.

Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #80 on: August 01, 2017, 04:51:16 AM »
The idea of everybody being saved is far crueler than the idea of some or most people perishing in Hell for eternity. In fact, the day that happens is the day I voluntarily leave Heaven for Hell because I refuse to stand alongside the same person who got to indulge in a life of decadence and sin only to have a change of heart at the very end while I meanwhile busted my behind attempting to follow all of God's ridiculous rules and ordinances. If we all end up in the same place, then what was the point? There is no justice in knowing that the alpha who got to bed how many supermodels and the greedy CEO who made his fortune off of broke college kids like me having to collect carts in the >100 degree weather will not face eternal punishment. Frankly I have much more respect for a crueler, harsher, more vengeful God who pours out his wrath than I do for the loving liberal kind who forgives everything.
Do you like the idea of any those "two" gods though? The whole thing is a mess, both inevitable universalism and inevitable eternal punishment is cruel and in the end absurd. Man is not Casua sui. Christianity agrees with this. And yet I find Christian theology to contradict this by its basic doctrines. It is really a hellish thought to imagine being thrown in to existence without consent by a wrathful God without understanding his true purpose for creating in the first place. A more horrible prison, where I really cant escape but am guilty for just being born and where eternal punishment awaits me if I don't follow this mystical God's demands, is a ridiculous nightmare. The whole reward/punishment thinking is primitve and superficial and often interpreted hedonistically. What is explained if I live forever? I still wonder why I am, and if I am not satisfied with being, I will be punished unless I repent from this pessimism.  This while Justice -thinking, as if justice means "Now I have suffered this much, while he, who is worse than me, hasn't suffered. Life sucks if there isn't going to be any Balance here and 'justification' of suffering. Now it is my turn to experience their blessing and more blessing! And their turn to suffer!". Now, what is even wrong with suffering? Suffering makes it possible for man to reach his highest states and transcend himself. It is the beginning of Most great creative works of art. Yet man refuses to see the suffering element of God in eternity, because he can't simply understand artistic elements of life. In other words, I might really ask : Why is a world without suffering needed for those in bliss? Is that really a bliss, to never suffer? Suffering is what makes it possible for man to reach his heights. That is what superficial thinkers don't understand. Why is a world with suffering bad? Why hope for a world without it? Without struggle, life is meaningless and boring. Great artistic achievements impossible. Everyone with the ambition to master an art knows that. But perhaps you don't appreciate art.

God is a Divine Jigsaw. I went into that before and was lauded for it, but I still stand by it. God, as you alluded to, has forced each and everyone of us into a divine game of chess where the repercussions for failure are eternal punishment, all by virtue of simply being born. And without an option to forfeit, at that. We were forced into existence and given no way out. We will either succeed according to his rules or perish by them. Suffering is not bad; far from it. Rather it is existing in a sort of hybridization of neither suffering nor pleasure that is bad, a world of unfeeling and numbness. In other words, the state of the modern world. Yet even so, I long to see the day that the worst sinners like fornicators, abortionists, and pimps are cast into the everlasting fire. Granted, it might be more just to simply annihilate them out of existence after they have suffered for a fair amount of time to atone for their sins while on Earth.
We agree about God. Though I am ambivalent there. What I find in traditional Christian theology is a Divine Jigsaw. A cruel totalitarian. What I find in the music of Schubert etc. Though is something completely different. Where we disagree is about what we wish.

"Suffering is not bad; far from it. Rather it is existing in a sort of hybridization of neither suffering nor pleasure that is bad, a world of unfeeling and numbness."

This is very true
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 04:52:07 AM by beebert »
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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #81 on: August 01, 2017, 04:57:25 AM »
Hmm . . . if you're Christian and believe the Bible. Doesn't mean X,Y,Z and that other stuff.
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Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #82 on: August 01, 2017, 05:10:02 AM »
I also need to point out that whenever I listen to the great Music of Schubert, Bach, Beethoven etc. I can't help finding a christian element in it that I deeply appreciate. So in the end you observarions are too superficial.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 05:10:22 AM by beebert »
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Offline Indocern

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #83 on: August 01, 2017, 06:31:29 AM »
The idea of everybody being saved is far crueler than the idea of some or most people perishing in Hell for eternity. In fact, the day that happens is the day I voluntarily leave Heaven for Hell because I refuse to stand alongside the same person who got to indulge in a life of decadence and sin only to have a change of heart at the very end while I meanwhile busted my behind attempting to follow all of God's ridiculous rules and ordinances. If we all end up in the same place, then what was the point? There is no justice in knowing that the alpha who got to bed how many supermodels and the greedy CEO who made his fortune off of broke college kids like me having to collect carts in the >100 degree weather will not face eternal punishment. Frankly I have much more respect for a crueler, harsher, more vengeful God who pours out his wrath than I do for the loving liberal kind who forgives everything.
Do you like the idea of any those "two" gods though? The whole thing is a mess, both inevitable universalism and inevitable eternal punishment is cruel and in the end absurd. Man is not Casua sui. Christianity agrees with this. And yet I find Christian theology to contradict this by its basic doctrines. It is really a hellish thought to imagine being thrown in to existence without consent by a wrathful God without understanding his true purpose for creating in the first place. A more horrible prison, where I really cant escape but am guilty for just being born and where eternal punishment awaits me if I don't follow this mystical God's demands, is a ridiculous nightmare. The whole reward/punishment thinking is primitve and superficial and often interpreted hedonistically. What is explained if I live forever? I still wonder why I am, and if I am not satisfied with being, I will be punished unless I repent from this pessimism.  This while Justice -thinking, as if justice means "Now I have suffered this much, while he, who is worse than me, hasn't suffered. Life sucks if there isn't going to be any Balance here and 'justification' of suffering. Now it is my turn to experience their blessing and more blessing! And their turn to suffer!". Now, what is even wrong with suffering? Suffering makes it possible for man to reach his highest states and transcend himself. It is the beginning of Most great creative works of art. Yet man refuses to see the suffering element of God in eternity, because he can't simply understand artistic elements of life. In other words, I might really ask : Why is a world without suffering needed for those in bliss? Is that really a bliss, to never suffer? Suffering is what makes it possible for man to reach his heights. That is what superficial thinkers don't understand. Why is a world with suffering bad? Why hope for a world without it? Without struggle, life is meaningless and boring. Great artistic achievements impossible. Everyone with the ambition to master an art knows that. But perhaps you don't appreciate art.

God is a Divine Jigsaw. I went into that before and was lauded for it, but I still stand by it. God, as you alluded to, has forced each and everyone of us into a divine game of chess where the repercussions for failure are eternal punishment, all by virtue of simply being born. And without an option to forfeit, at that. We were forced into existence and given no way out. We will either succeed according to his rules or perish by them. Suffering is not bad; far from it. Rather it is existing in a sort of hybridization of neither suffering nor pleasure that is bad, a world of unfeeling and numbness. In other words, the state of the modern world. Yet even so, I long to see the day that the worst sinners like fornicators, abortionists, and pimps are cast into the everlasting fire. Granted, it might be more just to simply annihilate them out of existence after they have suffered for a fair amount of time to atone for their sins while on Earth.

So you never suffered this way (like you describe that they must suffer)? You can't take this for more time than minutes... Why you think God will allow that? He will not make such thing because no one alive can take it.

Offline RobS

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #84 on: August 01, 2017, 07:26:04 AM »
The idea of everybody being saved is far crueler than the idea of some or most people perishing in Hell for eternity. In fact, the day that happens is the day I voluntarily leave Heaven for Hell because I refuse to stand alongside the same person who got to indulge in a life of decadence and sin only to have a change of heart at the very end while I meanwhile busted my behind attempting to follow all of God's ridiculous rules and ordinances. If we all end up in the same place, then what was the point? There is no justice in knowing that the alpha who got to bed how many supermodels and the greedy CEO who made his fortune off of broke college kids like me having to collect carts in the >100 degree weather will not face eternal punishment. Frankly I have much more respect for a crueler, harsher, more vengeful God who pours out his wrath than I do for the loving liberal kind who forgives everything.
JamesR is back! I think you are gonna get from God what you want, the Final Judgment talk in the Gospels is scary.

I think the idea of universal salvation kind of makes Christianity nihilistic. Last I checked justice is part of the Gospels.

What confused me recently was the notion that God is going to judge everything you have done in your earthly life but if you already repented for your sins then how could you be held accountable? Dont think that was explained to me well recently at my parish.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 07:30:54 AM by nothing »
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Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #85 on: August 01, 2017, 07:38:25 AM »
The idea of everybody being saved is far crueler than the idea of some or most people perishing in Hell for eternity. In fact, the day that happens is the day I voluntarily leave Heaven for Hell because I refuse to stand alongside the same person who got to indulge in a life of decadence and sin only to have a change of heart at the very end while I meanwhile busted my behind attempting to follow all of God's ridiculous rules and ordinances. If we all end up in the same place, then what was the point? There is no justice in knowing that the alpha who got to bed how many supermodels and the greedy CEO who made his fortune off of broke college kids like me having to collect carts in the >100 degree weather will not face eternal punishment. Frankly I have much more respect for a crueler, harsher, more vengeful God who pours out his wrath than I do for the loving liberal kind who forgives everything.
JamesR is back! I think you are gonna get from God what you want, the Final Judgment talk in the Gospels is scary.

I think the idea of universal salvation kind of makes Christianity nihilistic. Last I checked justice is part of the Gospels.

What confused me recently was the notion that God is going to judge everything you have done in your earthly life but if you already repented for your sins then how could you be held accountable? Dont think that was explained to me well recently at my parish.
Both inevitable universalism and inevitable eternal punishment is nihilistic IMO. The kind of hopeful universalism of Starets Silouan and Fyodor Dostoevsky is right now the only kind of christianity that I don't find nihilistic.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 07:38:42 AM by beebert »
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Offline RobS

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #86 on: August 01, 2017, 07:46:15 AM »
The kind of hopeful universalism of Starets Silouan and Fyodor Dostoevsky is right now the only kind of christianity that I don't find nihilistic.
Interesting, can you describe their kind of universalism further? By Dosteosvsky do you mean Elder Zosima from TBK? I dont know anything about St. Silouan.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 07:47:12 AM by nothing »
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #87 on: August 01, 2017, 07:47:48 AM »
Last I checked justice is part of the Gospels.

But it is always, every single time, a type of justice that vindicates and raises up "the least" and the most vulnerable, the type of justice that mercy triumphs over, the type which allows things like 'love' and 'humility' to stand in for punishment and fines ("Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little"). When most people think of justice they're thinking along the same lines that the non-prodigal son did in the parable of the Prodigal Son. He stayed at home, he didn't waste his inheritance, he didn't live a sinful lifestyle, he didn't embarrass the family, he didn't pathetically crawl back just hoping to get a roof over his head, he was hard working and did things the right way; he was also the one who was presented as not understanding salvation or God's love when he complained about how unjust the treatment of the prodigal son was. Fear regarding the Judgment, at first, might indeed have something to do with that non-prodigal-son type of justice, but it (ideally) is supposed to give way to something different: turning from a feeling of inadequacy having to do with an inability to live up to the 'commandments' or to achieve a certain baseline of good deeds, into an understanding that you claimed to love someone but sometimes went about that relationship in a way which clearly demonstrated how self-absorbed you could be. The 'book of life' which we're to be judged out of is not so much a moral ledger with all our deeds, but more like a Russian novel which details our thoughts, deeds, intentions, etc. in intimate detail. That judgment has less to do with measuring scales, and more to do with whether you were a sympathetic character--thus the reason that even those who prophecy, preach, etc. (ie. who do good deeds) might still be told "I never knew you" if they had not proper intentions based in virtues like love.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 07:50:21 AM by Asteriktos »
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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #88 on: August 01, 2017, 07:58:10 AM »
Thanks for the correction Asteriktos, well said! Not sure if that will satisfy the wrathful venegenace JamesR hungers.  ;) Vengenace is mine and I will repay saith the Lord..
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #89 on: August 01, 2017, 09:57:40 AM »
The kind of hopeful universalism of Starets Silouan and Fyodor Dostoevsky is right now the only kind of christianity that I don't find nihilistic.
Interesting, can you describe their kind of universalism further? By Dosteosvsky do you mean Elder Zosima from TBK? I dont know anything about St. Silouan.
Yes I mean Zosima. But also Furst Myshkin and Alyosha and Dostoevsky himself talking through these characters. He knew nihilism and how to battle it. And remember, I who am in a Nietzsche period, Nietzsche admired Dostoevsky more than all other writers, philosophers and psychologists, saying that Dostoevsky was the One he had encountered who could really teach him something. Silouan is almost Dostoevsky's vision embodied. I really recommend you read him and Sophrony's book about him. He, Isaac Syrian and St Francis of Assisi are my favorite saints. And Gregory of Nyssa of course... There is no tendency towards sadism here. Here is from Sophrony's book on Silouan:

"I remember a conversation between him and a certain hermit, who declared with evident satisfaction, ‘God will punish all atheists. They will burn in everlasting fire.’

Obviously upset, The Staretz said:

‘Tell me, supposing you went to paradise and there looked down and saw somebody burning in hell-fire – would you feel happy?’

‘It can’t be helped. It would be their own fault,’ said the hermit.

The Staretz answered him with a sorrowful countenance:

‘Love could not bear that,’ he said. ‘We must pray for all’"

And here is another quote by Silouan:

“If the Lord saved you along with the entire multitude of your brethren, and one of the enemies of Christ and the Church remained in the outer darkness, would you not, along with all the others, set yourself to imploring the Lord to save this one unrepentant brother? If you would not beseech Him day and night, then your heart is of iron—but there is no need for iron in paradise.”

For Silouan; embracing the whole cosmos, loving all, and particularly the commandment to love ones enemies was the most important thing of all.

Read this in the link as a foretaste, it is written by Kalistos Ware:
https://orthodoxcityhermit.com/tag/st-silouan-and-our-relationship-as-humans-with-the-animals/
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 10:04:25 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)