Author Topic: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?  (Read 2339 times)

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Offline minasoliman

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Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« on: June 14, 2017, 01:43:15 AM »
Before I sleep, I was contemplating on this repeated phrase that we may not know that all may be saved or we may arguably have reason to believe that not all will be saved, and yet we still pray and hope that all may be saved.

But I wonder, do we really and truly HOPE so, or are we just saying this?  Some of us, heck most of us still believe some people deserve to burn in hell eternally.  We seem to want the satisfaction of vengeance, even if we can do it ourselves, we desire the government or God to do it if the government can't.  And if the government can, we still want God to burn him/her in hell forever.

And so I wonder if we are honest with ourselves in thinking if we really hope that all may be saved?  Is it simply an insult to our sensibilities and want of vengeance that we dare to even hope that all will be saved?  Considering many commentaries on mass killings of innocents, and how we just don't fathom to think the person who killed even has a soul, and considering psychopaths and sociopaths who seem to be extremely difficult (some people say impossible) to medically or at least psychologically treat, I wonder at what point can we really truly believe in our whole heart that we HOPE all may be saved.

This may just be a rant from me, but I figured I share this rant in this section. If it becomes a debate or just a simple sharing of ideas or insights into the thought I bring, great!  It's pretty much an open ended discussion.  You have something personal to share that reflects or relates to this, that's okay too.  Or you can consider this my belated 19K post.

Good night!
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 01:46:05 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2017, 02:41:00 AM »
Thank you for this.

I was raised to think of nearly everyone as bound to perish in hellfire. Learning this from a young age, I didn't doubt it and it didn't trouble me. Yet the attitude over the years began to take a terrible toll on my social and mental health. It wasn't too many years ago that God finally seemed to break through with the warm light of his love for everyone around me. I won't say I was given to know that those around me would be saved, but that I was given to know that their salvation was as much the concern of the almighty, all-loving God as my own. Yes, in a sense I dared to picture all men as saved -- dared at least to picture the possibility clearly and hold up that vision next to the dark one I had carried so long. And the relief was indescribable. Like a physical relaxing of some awful cramp or fever. Joy flooded in. I've gone thru my days much more comfortably ever since, looking at others with a smile, feeling my own kinship and place in the world -- and all from that one therapeutic moment -- I haven't had to reconsider my basic understandings of dogma or make any real shift in belief -- just had to let that palpable hope shine in.
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Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2017, 07:04:05 AM »
I feel that I am obligated to hope for the salvation of all. I believe that hoping in God's vengeance and revenge in destroying the wicked is a sin...
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 07:05:02 AM by beebert »
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2017, 07:43:07 AM »
Before I sleep, I was contemplating on this repeated phrase that we may not know that all may be saved or we may arguably have reason to believe that not all will be saved, and yet we still pray and hope that all may be saved.

But I wonder, do we really and truly HOPE so, or are we just saying this?  Some of us, heck most of us still believe some people deserve to burn in hell eternally.  We seem to want the satisfaction of vengeance, even if we can do it ourselves, we desire the government or God to do it if the government can't.  And if the government can, we still want God to burn him/her in hell forever.

And so I wonder if we are honest with ourselves in thinking if we really hope that all may be saved?  Is it simply an insult to our sensibilities and want of vengeance that we dare to even hope that all will be saved?  Considering many commentaries on mass killings of innocents, and how we just don't fathom to think the person who killed even has a soul, and considering psychopaths and sociopaths who seem to be extremely difficult (some people say impossible) to medically or at least psychologically treat, I wonder at what point can we really truly believe in our whole heart that we HOPE all may be saved.

This may just be a rant from me, but I figured I share this rant in this section. If it becomes a debate or just a simple sharing of ideas or insights into the thought I bring, great!  It's pretty much an open ended discussion.  You have something personal to share that reflects or relates to this, that's okay too.  Or you can consider this my belated 19K post.

Good night!

Yes, although I am not sure this is likely.  I fear very few might be saved.  My hope is that God will work something out along the lines of the universalist doctrine described in the Nestorian Book of the Bee, punishing the unsaved but not to an infinite degree, or from a CS Lewis perspective, that the unsaved, some of them might realize the gates of Hell are locked frommthe inside and thus be able to escape.  This realization might be aided by our prayers.

The "God hates most people" idea is a perverse form of Christianity.  Especially in Calvinism.  John Wesley told George Whitefield, whomwas a Calvinist but otherwise an ally of Wesley, "Your God is ,y devil," referring to the horror of foreordination to damnation.
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2017, 09:31:03 AM »
How do I put this?

I hope for it generally, but not always specifically.

The problem is with me.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2017, 09:34:24 AM »
How do I put this?

I hope for it generally, but not always specifically.

The problem is with me.

That's the most succinct summary of what I portrayed.  Yes, I have a problem.  I do not know if I really hope that all may be saved.  I know I must believe it, I just don't know given specific circumstances I would be able to do truly believe it.

I guess the point is, perhaps if we are honest with ourselves, we might better handle what we SHOULD do in the future.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 09:34:57 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2017, 10:09:40 AM »
I can´t stand the thought that people around me, whether my relatives, friends, or neighbours that I see walking on the streets may perish forever and suffer eternally(!)... And that many think it being the majority... That almost gives me a mental breakdown and nervous collapse. I actually was enrolled in a psychatrical clinic for weeks in october because of the thought that people might suffer forever and I must do everything to save them all. And I barely slept between july and october last year(3 months) because I thought many men would go to hell. It made me depressed. Severely so. I now know that what I experienced WAS hell and I am after that convinced that anyone who has experienced hell(even if only for 3 moths) would refuse to hope for the damnation of anyone and would almost desperately hope for the salvation of all.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2017, 10:17:35 AM »
I can´t stand the thought that people around me, whether my relatives, friends, or neighbours that I see walking on the streets may perish forever and suffer eternally(!)... And that many think it being the majority... That almost gives me a mental breakdown and nervous collapse. I actually was enrolled in a psychatrical clinic for weeks in october because of the thought that people might suffer forever and I must do everything to save them all. And I barely slept between july and october last year(3 months) because I thought many men would go to hell. It made me depressed. Severely so. I now know that what I experienced WAS hell and I am after that convinced that anyone who has experienced hell(even if only for 3 moths) would refuse to hope for the damnation of anyone and would almost desperately hope for the salvation of all.

Good!  But I'm not talking about relatives, neighbors, and friends.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2017, 10:34:49 AM »
I can´t stand the thought that people around me, whether my relatives, friends, or neighbours that I see walking on the streets may perish forever and suffer eternally(!)... And that many think it being the majority... That almost gives me a mental breakdown and nervous collapse. I actually was enrolled in a psychatrical clinic for weeks in october because of the thought that people might suffer forever and I must do everything to save them all. And I barely slept between july and october last year(3 months) because I thought many men would go to hell. It made me depressed. Severely so. I now know that what I experienced WAS hell and I am after that convinced that anyone who has experienced hell(even if only for 3 moths) would refuse to hope for the damnation of anyone and would almost desperately hope for the salvation of all.

Good!  But I'm not talking about relatives, neighbors, and friends.
Neighbours=All people.
That is what I meant with neighbours, which I why I said "neighbours walking on the streets". What I meant was "Strangers walking on the streets". I dont wish that ANYONE should suffer eternally what I went through for 3 months  (and more).
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Alkis

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2017, 10:40:05 AM »
Great thread. I agree with all of you. Human beings we are so weak, so blind that we must hope and pray for the salvation of all in Christ our Lord. Who is holy? Noone. Even our saints and holy Fathers have sinned in their life. And I really feel and believe that the Lord our God is so Merciful that will enlight us to avoid our eternal damnation. My aunt is a doctor and she said me a few weeks ago that she realised that many people die at the correct moment of their life. They suffer at the bed and when they forgive everyone and everything, when they realise what they are and what they have done, then they die while feeling relieved.
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Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2017, 10:46:18 AM »
Great thread. I agree with all of you. Human beings we are so weak, so blind that we must hope and pray for the salvation of all in Christ our Lord. Who is holy? Noone. Even our saints and holy Fathers have sinned in their life. And I really feel and believe that the Lord our God is so Merciful that will enlight us to avoid our eternal damnation. My aunt is a doctor and she said me a few weeks ago that she realised that many people die at the correct moment of their life. They suffer at the bed and when they forgive everyone and everything, when they realise what they are and what they have done, then they die while feeling relieved.
That is wonderful to hear
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2017, 10:46:32 AM »
I wonder — are we obligated to hope this? I certainly think it better that everyone repent and find forgiveness, and, in a general way, I guess I do hope for that. But when I contemplate things like the atrocities committed by ISIS or war crimes or suicide bombers or child rapists, I have a hard time seeing HOW it is the case that all are saved, and I further have a hard time being concerned that people who do such things are in hell. That is perhaps a failing on my part, but there is a strain in ancient Christian literature of rejoicing in the just judgments of God; St. Ephrem specifically mentions the just laughing at seeing the damned in hell. That seems a bit too much for me, but maybe I am not as horrified by sin as I should be. Given my own failings, that is probably the case.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2017, 10:47:48 AM »
I can´t stand the thought that people around me, whether my relatives, friends, or neighbours that I see walking on the streets may perish forever and suffer eternally(!)... And that many think it being the majority... That almost gives me a mental breakdown and nervous collapse. I actually was enrolled in a psychatrical clinic for weeks in october because of the thought that people might suffer forever and I must do everything to save them all. And I barely slept between july and october last year(3 months) because I thought many men would go to hell. It made me depressed. Severely so. I now know that what I experienced WAS hell and I am after that convinced that anyone who has experienced hell(even if only for 3 moths) would refuse to hope for the damnation of anyone and would almost desperately hope for the salvation of all.

Good!  But I'm not talking about relatives, neighbors, and friends.
Neighbours=All people.
That is what I meant with neighbours, which I why I said "neighbours walking on the streets". What I meant was "Strangers walking on the streets". I dont wish that ANYONE should suffer eternally what I went through for 3 months  (and more).

That's good that you have that feeling.  But have you ever gotten into a fight with someone or been unfairly treated by someone that AT THAT MOMENT, you still loved them and wished the best for them?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Alkis

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2017, 10:51:38 AM »
But yes it is really difficult to pray for all and especially for murderers, rapists, wars, enemies etc... This is the perfection that saint Maximus the Confessor describes. To love EVERYONE in the same level.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2017, 10:52:58 AM »
I wonder — are we obligated to hope this? I certainly think it better that everyone repent and find forgiveness, and, in a general way, I guess I do hope for that. But when I contemplate things like the atrocities committed by ISIS or war crimes or suicide bombers or child rapists, I have a hard time seeing HOW it is the case that all are saved, and I further have a hard time being concerned that people who do such things are in hell. That is perhaps a failing on my part, but there is a strain in ancient Christian literature of rejoicing in the just judgments of God; St. Ephrem specifically mentions the just laughing at seeing the damned in hell. That seems a bit too much for me, but maybe I am not as horrified by sin as I should be. Given my own failings, that is probably the case.

I suppose it is a logical outcome of "loving the enemy" to have such hope.  But I like you also think of ISIS and have a hard time to fathom hoping for their salvation as wel.

I liked a recent Copt's honesty, and I can't help but reiterate.  God bless the survivors who truly forgave their families' killers and wish for their salvation.  They are a source of hope and salvation for me.  But at this moment, I sympathize with many other Copts who wish them to be destroyed and sent to hell.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2017, 10:55:39 AM »
I wonder — are we obligated to hope this? I certainly think it better that everyone repent and find forgiveness, and, in a general way, I guess I do hope for that. But when I contemplate things like the atrocities committed by ISIS or war crimes or suicide bombers or child rapists, I have a hard time seeing HOW it is the case that all are saved, and I further have a hard time being concerned that people who do such things are in hell. That is perhaps a failing on my part, but there is a strain in ancient Christian literature of rejoicing in the just judgments of God; St. Ephrem specifically mentions the just laughing at seeing the damned in hell. That seems a bit too much for me, but maybe I am not as horrified by sin as I should be. Given my own failings, that is probably the case.
Aquinas Said the same thing as Ephrem. So did Tertullian and Calvin etc. Personally I find that absolutely repulsing. That sounds more like eternal hatred than eternal love. Though I agree with you about the problems of ISIS etc. But we are commanded to pray and bless those who persecute us, and to Love our enemies... That obviously seems to mean that we should Hope for the salvation of every man, doesnt it? And to love our neighbours as ourselves... Is it even possible to Hope for our own salvation if we dont hope for the salvation of our neighbour?
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Offline Alkis

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2017, 10:57:10 AM »
I wonder — are we obligated to hope this? I certainly think it better that everyone repent and find forgiveness, and, in a general way, I guess I do hope for that. But when I contemplate things like the atrocities committed by ISIS or war crimes or suicide bombers or child rapists, I have a hard time seeing HOW it is the case that all are saved, and I further have a hard time being concerned that people who do such things are in hell. That is perhaps a failing on my part, but there is a strain in ancient Christian literature of rejoicing in the just judgments of God; St. Ephrem specifically mentions the just laughing at seeing the damned in hell. That seems a bit too much for me, but maybe I am not as horrified by sin as I should be. Given my own failings, that is probably the case.

I suppose it is a logical outcome of "loving the enemy" to have such hope.  But I like you also think of ISIS and have a hard time to fathom hoping for their salvation as wel.

I liked a recent Copt's honesty, and I can't help but reiterate.  God bless the survivors who truly forgave their families' killers and wish for their salvation.  They are a source of hope and salvation for me.  But at this moment, I sympathize with many other Copts who wish them to be destroyed and sent to hell.

I remember a letter I have read from a mother of a dead child during that bomb in a coptic church in Cairo... I was impressed. She has great faith. She said about the forgiveness of our Lord while He was on the Cross...
For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2017, 10:57:39 AM »
Is it even possible to Hope for our own salvation if we dont hope for the salvation of our neighbour?

Good point!
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2017, 10:59:57 AM »
I can´t stand the thought that people around me, whether my relatives, friends, or neighbours that I see walking on the streets may perish forever and suffer eternally(!)... And that many think it being the majority... That almost gives me a mental breakdown and nervous collapse. I actually was enrolled in a psychatrical clinic for weeks in october because of the thought that people might suffer forever and I must do everything to save them all. And I barely slept between july and october last year(3 months) because I thought many men would go to hell. It made me depressed. Severely so. I now know that what I experienced WAS hell and I am after that convinced that anyone who has experienced hell(even if only for 3 moths) would refuse to hope for the damnation of anyone and would almost desperately hope for the salvation of all.

Good!  But I'm not talking about relatives, neighbors, and friends.
Neighbours=All people.
That is what I meant with neighbours, which I why I said "neighbours walking on the streets". What I meant was "Strangers walking on the streets". I dont wish that ANYONE should suffer eternally what I went through for 3 months  (and more).

That's good that you have that feeling.  But have you ever gotten into a fight with someone or been unfairly treated by someone that AT THAT MOMENT, you still loved them and wished the best for them?
No... And I dont love my neighbour as myself... and if you want... Pray for me. But what I mean is that I DONT want anyone to suffer as I did. Utter despair for anyone? No. By no means. Perhaps this is the only grace I have from God that I can experience: That I really dont want anyone to suffer as I did in utter despair. But I dont love my neighbour as myself; so I dont deserve to even look Christ in the eyes...
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2017, 11:01:09 AM »
The Lord knows our weakness...and propensity for anger and desire for revenge. 

"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."  Romans 12:19

Clearly He understands how our minds work.

As in all things, we simply need to trust in Him....and leave the judgment of the individual to Him.  He is the Great, fair, and just Judge.  Nobody will fool or sweet-talk or bribe Him.

...and yes, we do desire for the salvation of all...I even wonder about poor Judas...or even Lucifer.  They were both loved...and made a mistake...and refused to repent.

Therefore, we pray that EVERYONE repents before they die.  Heaven is boundless.  Just because another million souls enter, doesn't mean there will be less room for us and ours.  There's room for all creation.

The psychopaths and murderers, etc...some are biologically impaired (meaning lack of some chemical, or something...is hindering them incapable of love, etc.).  Some truly are not able to be kind and loving...and it is a mental illness...that they were born with.  Just as we wouldn't wish a man born blind to burn in hell forever...so, we don't wish the man born with a mental illness to burn forever.  These conditions are not their fault in the least. 

Those who are not "born" impaired....have for some reason allowed the devil access to them.  They were weak.  Perhaps hurt by the world.  Perhaps lonely or desperate.  We know that Satan does not sleep.  He watches for any weakness....just like a lion...who hides in the tall grass...watching the antelope...and the moment he spots one limping, or sees any impairment....he is there...taking advantage.  Same with humans.  Any display of weakness...is an invitation for temptation. 

We also don't wish for the sad individual who gave in to this temptation to burn forever.  They were weak.  They were hurt.  We wish for them to repent, as well.

If they murdered or harmed...we pray for the salvation of their victims.  Forgiveness of their sins, and memory eternal.

While difficult, as our views are often tinged with anger, or hurt, deep down inside....we truly would not wish to see anyone burning.  It would go against our true natures to see anyone or anything suffer.

May all evildoers repent before they harm anyone else....and may every living soul be worthy of salvation.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2017, 11:03:09 AM »
I can´t stand the thought that people around me, whether my relatives, friends, or neighbours that I see walking on the streets may perish forever and suffer eternally(!)... And that many think it being the majority... That almost gives me a mental breakdown and nervous collapse. I actually was enrolled in a psychatrical clinic for weeks in october because of the thought that people might suffer forever and I must do everything to save them all. And I barely slept between july and october last year(3 months) because I thought many men would go to hell. It made me depressed. Severely so. I now know that what I experienced WAS hell and I am after that convinced that anyone who has experienced hell(even if only for 3 moths) would refuse to hope for the damnation of anyone and would almost desperately hope for the salvation of all.

Good!  But I'm not talking about relatives, neighbors, and friends.
Neighbours=All people.
That is what I meant with neighbours, which I why I said "neighbours walking on the streets". What I meant was "Strangers walking on the streets". I dont wish that ANYONE should suffer eternally what I went through for 3 months  (and more).

That's good that you have that feeling.  But have you ever gotten into a fight with someone or been unfairly treated by someone that AT THAT MOMENT, you still loved them and wished the best for them?
No... And I dont love my neighbour as myself... and if you want... Pray for me. But what I mean is that I DONT want anyone to suffer as I did. Utter despair for anyone? No. By no means. Perhaps this is the only grace I have from God that I can experience: That I really dont want anyone to suffer as I did in utter despair. But I dont love my neighbour as myself; so I dont deserve to even look Christ in the eyes...

So it's really about you.
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Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2017, 11:06:28 AM »
I can´t stand the thought that people around me, whether my relatives, friends, or neighbours that I see walking on the streets may perish forever and suffer eternally(!)... And that many think it being the majority... That almost gives me a mental breakdown and nervous collapse. I actually was enrolled in a psychatrical clinic for weeks in october because of the thought that people might suffer forever and I must do everything to save them all. And I barely slept between july and october last year(3 months) because I thought many men would go to hell. It made me depressed. Severely so. I now know that what I experienced WAS hell and I am after that convinced that anyone who has experienced hell(even if only for 3 moths) would refuse to hope for the damnation of anyone and would almost desperately hope for the salvation of all.

Good!  But I'm not talking about relatives, neighbors, and friends.
Neighbours=All people.
That is what I meant with neighbours, which I why I said "neighbours walking on the streets". What I meant was "Strangers walking on the streets". I dont wish that ANYONE should suffer eternally what I went through for 3 months  (and more).

That's good that you have that feeling.  But have you ever gotten into a fight with someone or been unfairly treated by someone that AT THAT MOMENT, you still loved them and wished the best for them?
No... And I dont love my neighbour as myself... and if you want... Pray for me. But what I mean is that I DONT want anyone to suffer as I did. Utter despair for anyone? No. By no means. Perhaps this is the only grace I have from God that I can experience: That I really dont want anyone to suffer as I did in utter despair. But I dont love my neighbour as myself; so I dont deserve to even look Christ in the eyes...

So it's really about you.
Probably yes. So then Maybe it isnt a grace from God. I still really dont want anyone to suffer though...
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2017, 12:42:55 PM »
Is it even possible to Hope for our own salvation if we dont hope for the salvation of our neighbour?

That's the million dollar question in a way. I suppose to some degree it depends on what "hope" really entails. I hope everyone is saved in the sense that eternal punishment is horrible to contemplate, and it is obviously God's will that all would be saved; I hope that they, and I myself, can reconcile their behavior with the image of God in which we are all created. Since the world has not been reduced to ash, God's forbearance towards us seems to be near-limitless. On the other hand, the Scriptures are pretty clear about the existence of hell, and I assume God means it when he gives commandments and prohibits certain behaviors. For people who commit heinous sins and die without any sign of repentance at all, I'm not sure I can have a reasonably grounded hope that they are saved. That does not mean I desire the damnation of the wicked, but I also believe there comes a Day when we answer for our actions, and if someone has chosen to be a monster, then damnation may be the just punishment. Fortunately, a greater Judge than I will pronounce that sentence!
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Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2017, 12:56:29 PM »
Is it even possible to Hope for our own salvation if we dont hope for the salvation of our neighbour?

That's the million dollar question in a way. I suppose to some degree it depends on what "hope" really entails. I hope everyone is saved in the sense that eternal punishment is horrible to contemplate, and it is obviously God's will that all would be saved; I hope that they, and I myself, can reconcile their behavior with the image of God in which we are all created. Since the world has not been reduced to ash, God's forbearance towards us seems to be near-limitless. On the other hand, the Scriptures are pretty clear about the existence of hell, and I assume God means it when he gives commandments and prohibits certain behaviors. For people who commit heinous sins and die without any sign of repentance at all, I'm not sure I can have a reasonably grounded hope that they are saved. That does not mean I desire the damnation of the wicked, but I also believe there comes a Day when we answer for our actions, and if someone has chosen to be a monster, then damnation may be the just punishment. Fortunately, a greater Judge than I will pronounce that sentence!
Yes... It is just... I am not sure most people have seriously thought about what it really means when we say eternal punishment. ETERNAL punishing... In FIRE. That is literally Tja most brutal torture one can imagine. It would then be a crime against humanity to not pray that all might be saved IMO
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 01:01:16 PM by beebert »
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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2017, 01:19:26 PM »
I love what Liza has said; I don't think I could have said it better. 

"The Conclusion of Every Hour" (and whatever other names it goes by) says, in part, "Christ our God...Who loves the righteous and has mercy on the sinners, of whom I am chief.  Who does not wish the death of the sinner, but that he returns and lives.  Who calls all to salvation, for the promise of the blessings to come."  If this is Christ's attitude, maybe it should be ours, too.

So yes, I do genuinely hope all will be saved.  But I'm also comfortable hanging out in the grey area between "logic implies not everyone is/will be saved" and "only God knows."  I don't need to know; there's no use in it.
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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2017, 02:17:32 PM »
But I wonder, do we really and truly HOPE so, or are we just saying this?  Some of us, heck most of us still believe some people deserve to burn in hell eternally.  We seem to want the satisfaction of vengeance, even if we can do it ourselves, we desire the government or God to do it if the government can't.  And if the government can, we still want God to burn him/her in hell forever.

And so I wonder if we are honest with ourselves in thinking if we really hope that all may be saved?  Is it simply an insult to our sensibilities and want of vengeance that we dare to even hope that all will be saved?  Considering many commentaries on mass killings of innocents, and how we just don't fathom to think the person who killed even has a soul, and considering psychopaths and sociopaths who seem to be extremely difficult (some people say impossible) to medically or at least psychologically treat, I wonder at what point can we really truly believe in our whole heart that we HOPE all may be saved.

Specifically with regard to "hope", I think it's a function of love.  We can't hope for the salvation of all without loving all.  And I'm not sure very many of us can say we love others as we love ourselves or our loved ones.  St John asks how we can love God whom we have not seen if we do not love our brother whom we have seen.  So, really, we're not doing well.   

With regard to the sincerity of the hope, I think of this often when I pray.  How sincere am I when I ask God for anything?  Our prayer is often a lot of "good thoughts" or "positive vibes", and maybe that's a good place to start, but there's a lot more to it.  Maybe this hope is like that.   
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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2017, 02:20:14 PM »
The Lord knows our weakness...and propensity for anger and desire for revenge. 

"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."  Romans 12:19

Clearly He understands how our minds work.

As in all things, we simply need to trust in Him....and leave the judgment of the individual to Him.  He is the Great, fair, and just Judge.  Nobody will fool or sweet-talk or bribe Him.

...and yes, we do desire for the salvation of all...I even wonder about poor Judas...or even Lucifer.  They were both loved...and made a mistake...and refused to repent.

Therefore, we pray that EVERYONE repents before they die.  Heaven is boundless.  Just because another million souls enter, doesn't mean there will be less room for us and ours.  There's room for all creation.

The psychopaths and murderers, etc...some are biologically impaired (meaning lack of some chemical, or something...is hindering them incapable of love, etc.).  Some truly are not able to be kind and loving...and it is a mental illness...that they were born with.  Just as we wouldn't wish a man born blind to burn in hell forever...so, we don't wish the man born with a mental illness to burn forever.  These conditions are not their fault in the least. 

Those who are not "born" impaired....have for some reason allowed the devil access to them.  They were weak.  Perhaps hurt by the world.  Perhaps lonely or desperate.  We know that Satan does not sleep.  He watches for any weakness....just like a lion...who hides in the tall grass...watching the antelope...and the moment he spots one limping, or sees any impairment....he is there...taking advantage.  Same with humans.  Any display of weakness...is an invitation for temptation. 

We also don't wish for the sad individual who gave in to this temptation to burn forever.  They were weak.  They were hurt.  We wish for them to repent, as well.

If they murdered or harmed...we pray for the salvation of their victims.  Forgiveness of their sins, and memory eternal.

While difficult, as our views are often tinged with anger, or hurt, deep down inside....we truly would not wish to see anyone burning.  It would go against our true natures to see anyone or anything suffer.

May all evildoers repent before they harm anyone else....and may every living soul be worthy of salvation.

Amen!
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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2017, 02:33:26 PM »
But I wonder, do we really and truly HOPE so, or are we just saying this?  Some of us, heck most of us still believe some people deserve to burn in hell eternally.  We seem to want the satisfaction of vengeance, even if we can do it ourselves, we desire the government or God to do it if the government can't.  And if the government can, we still want God to burn him/her in hell forever.

And so I wonder if we are honest with ourselves in thinking if we really hope that all may be saved?  Is it simply an insult to our sensibilities and want of vengeance that we dare to even hope that all will be saved?  Considering many commentaries on mass killings of innocents, and how we just don't fathom to think the person who killed even has a soul, and considering psychopaths and sociopaths who seem to be extremely difficult (some people say impossible) to medically or at least psychologically treat, I wonder at what point can we really truly believe in our whole heart that we HOPE all may be saved.

Specifically with regard to "hope", I think it's a function of love.  We can't hope for the salvation of all without loving all.  And I'm not sure very many of us can say we love others as we love ourselves or our loved ones.  St John asks how we can love God whom we have not seen if we do not love our brother whom we have seen.  So, really, we're not doing well.   

With regard to the sincerity of the hope, I think of this often when I pray.  How sincere am I when I ask God for anything?  Our prayer is often a lot of "good thoughts" or "positive vibes", and maybe that's a good place to start, but there's a lot more to it.  Maybe this hope is like that.   

Yup, that's my worry, the "positive vibes" I have in my prayer rather than sincerity.  My "worst enemies" in life, if you can call them enemies, people who cussed me out, ex-girlfriends, new leader in a research opportunity who kicked me out...yea I pray for them, but there are a lot worse "enemies" in this world that praying for such people in my life really seems too easy in the comforts of where I live as opposed to other more sinister folks in the world who no one ever wishes to run into.
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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2017, 02:36:48 PM »
I wonder — are we obligated to hope this? I certainly think it better that everyone repent and find forgiveness, and, in a general way, I guess I do hope for that. But when I contemplate things like the atrocities committed by ISIS or war crimes or suicide bombers or child rapists, I have a hard time seeing HOW it is the case that all are saved, and I further have a hard time being concerned that people who do such things are in hell. That is perhaps a failing on my part, but there is a strain in ancient Christian literature of rejoicing in the just judgments of God; St. Ephrem specifically mentions the just laughing at seeing the damned in hell. That seems a bit too much for me, but maybe I am not as horrified by sin as I should be. Given my own failings, that is probably the case.

I suppose it is a logical outcome of "loving the enemy" to have such hope.  But I like you also think of ISIS and have a hard time to fathom hoping for their salvation as wel.

I liked a recent Copt's honesty, and I can't help but reiterate.  God bless the survivors who truly forgave their families' killers and wish for their salvation.  They are a source of hope and salvation for me.  But at this moment, I sympathize with many other Copts who wish them to be destroyed and sent to hell.

+1

Honestly, the Copts have become, for me, a sign of contradiction, and I'm not sure what to make of it.  Sometimes I'm tempted by the thought that people are saying what they think they ought to say or that they are brainwashed in some way, but usually I'm silenced by the feeling that the Lord is making good on what he promised in Lk 12.12 and 21.15, and that I am actually listening to the Holy Spirit and not, say, some five year old girl. 

Even so, I wonder how it is that the Copts have not formed militias to defend themselves as their Syriac brethren have done in certain places where they are also persecuted.  I've taken it for granted up to now that they are waiting on God to defend them, and that this is the deliberate decision of an entire people which is rooted in their deep and sincerely held theological conviction. 

But if there are a lot of Copts who wish for their enemies to be destroyed and sent to hell, I wonder how they have managed to resist the urge to help that process along.  Also, how is the Church ministering to these people?  Maybe I haven't been paying as much attention, but everything I see concerns the victims' families' forgiveness and Christian witness, the need for prayer, expressions of forgiveness and love for the attackers, etc., but I haven't come across much acknowledgement and validation of the feelings you describe, even if it's just to try and redirect it.

Forgive me, I'm not trying to offend, but this entire phenomenon is something I have difficulty with.   
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Offline William T

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2017, 02:59:54 PM »
How do I put this?

I hope for it generally, but not always specifically.

The problem is with me.

I'm probably the opposite of this.  I think it's very easy to see absolutely inflexible part of ideologies alien to me (Isis, etc) and due to it being a guiding idea having something of an intractable, irrevocable "angelic" nature to it.  When you see these things up close and in an actual person there is a lot more wiggle room.

After that my attitude is mostly apathetic.  I'm  probably not really too concerned about myself if I hope someone is going to heaven or Hell eternally...that's not really in any priority of mine.  Maybe that's a sin, but my sentiments or logical conclusions aren't that important to me. I hold with suspicion most logical chains on things like this as ad hoc human constructs, and a sentiment to me is just a personal sentiment.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 03:07:06 PM by William T »
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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2017, 04:32:03 PM »
I wonder — are we obligated to hope this? I certainly think it better that everyone repent and find forgiveness, and, in a general way, I guess I do hope for that. But when I contemplate things like the atrocities committed by ISIS or war crimes or suicide bombers or child rapists, I have a hard time seeing HOW it is the case that all are saved, and I further have a hard time being concerned that people who do such things are in hell. That is perhaps a failing on my part, but there is a strain in ancient Christian literature of rejoicing in the just judgments of God; St. Ephrem specifically mentions the just laughing at seeing the damned in hell. That seems a bit too much for me, but maybe I am not as horrified by sin as I should be. Given my own failings, that is probably the case.

I suppose it is a logical outcome of "loving the enemy" to have such hope.  But I like you also think of ISIS and have a hard time to fathom hoping for their salvation as wel.

I liked a recent Copt's honesty, and I can't help but reiterate.  God bless the survivors who truly forgave their families' killers and wish for their salvation.  They are a source of hope and salvation for me.  But at this moment, I sympathize with many other Copts who wish them to be destroyed and sent to hell.

+1

Honestly, the Copts have become, for me, a sign of contradiction, and I'm not sure what to make of it.  Sometimes I'm tempted by the thought that people are saying what they think they ought to say or that they are brainwashed in some way, but usually I'm silenced by the feeling that the Lord is making good on what he promised in Lk 12.12 and 21.15, and that I am actually listening to the Holy Spirit and not, say, some five year old girl. 

Even so, I wonder how it is that the Copts have not formed militias to defend themselves as their Syriac brethren have done in certain places where they are also persecuted.  I've taken it for granted up to now that they are waiting on God to defend them, and that this is the deliberate decision of an entire people which is rooted in their deep and sincerely held theological conviction. 

But if there are a lot of Copts who wish for their enemies to be destroyed and sent to hell, I wonder how they have managed to resist the urge to help that process along.  Also, how is the Church ministering to these people?  Maybe I haven't been paying as much attention, but everything I see concerns the victims' families' forgiveness and Christian witness, the need for prayer, expressions of forgiveness and love for the attackers, etc., but I haven't come across much acknowledgement and validation of the feelings you describe, even if it's just to try and redirect it.

Forgive me, I'm not trying to offend, but this entire phenomenon is something I have difficulty with.   

Mor, you are correct.  The Church ought to be ministering more to those who suffer violent tendencies, etc.  The problem is that these people rarely attend church services, therefore, sermons are lost to them.

We probably touch a few of them when we help out at homeless shelters or soup kitchens.  I always try to make sure I smile sweetly and make eye contact with each individual...to let them know they are not just another shadow passing before me as I throw food at them.  I always try to make pleasant conversation, at least exchange some pleasantries.  You never know...that may be all they need to lift them up for that day.

Otherwise,....we have the prison ministry....which is where a good number of them end up.  However, I feel our prison ministry isn't as robust as it should or could be.  As a woman...I would hesitate going to a prison....and most men would, as well.  It's a tough gig...but, we have a few priests who excel at it.
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Offline Helladius

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2017, 04:38:18 PM »
:O Strange to see a thread on this, as I've been thinking about this topic the last couple of days...

In answer: Yes I do. It's such a speculative topic that I don't want to meddle with something where I'm far out of my depth and put my foot in my mouth by saying anything more when I know I'm simply not qualified to speak on this. It's in God's Hands, and I trust Him. I agree completely with this (perfectly put, Ainnir!):


So yes, I do genuinely hope all will be saved.  But I'm also comfortable hanging out in the grey area between "logic implies not everyone is/will be saved" and "only God knows."  I don't need to know; there's no use in it.
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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2017, 05:59:41 PM »
Thank you for this.

I was raised to think of nearly everyone as bound to perish in hellfire. Learning this from a young age, I didn't doubt it and it didn't trouble me. Yet the attitude over the years began to take a terrible toll on my social and mental health. It wasn't too many years ago that God finally seemed to break through with the warm light of his love for everyone around me. I won't say I was given to know that those around me would be saved, but that I was given to know that their salvation was as much the concern of the almighty, all-loving God as my own. Yes, in a sense I dared to picture all men as saved -- dared at least to picture the possibility clearly and hold up that vision next to the dark one I had carried so long. And the relief was indescribable. Like a physical relaxing of some awful cramp or fever. Joy flooded in. I've gone thru my days much more comfortably ever since, looking at others with a smile, feeling my own kinship and place in the world -- and all from that one therapeutic moment -- I haven't had to reconsider my basic understandings of dogma or make any real shift in belief -- just had to let that palpable hope shine in.

Amen brother. Beautifully stated. I'm still working on this.

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2017, 06:56:51 PM »
That's a difficult question.
There are some sins that we aren't expected to intercede for, for example.
However, what would you do if the adversary himself were to appeal to you to pray for him? What would you do?
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Offline Jude1:3

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2017, 10:05:33 PM »
   It's a sobering thought that only 8 people in the entire world were saved in Noah's flood and that only 3 people were saved from Sodom and Gomorrah when they were destroyed.

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2017, 10:08:01 PM »
   It's a sobering thought that only 8 people in the entire world were saved in Noah's flood and that only 3 people were saved from Sodom and Gomorrah when they were destroyed.

Well, good point, although Orthodox theology makes the salvation of thise people post mortem directly  possible via the Harrowing of Hell.
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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2017, 10:12:48 PM »
I wonder — are we obligated to hope this? I certainly think it better that everyone repent and find forgiveness, and, in a general way, I guess I do hope for that. But when I contemplate things like the atrocities committed by ISIS or war crimes or suicide bombers or child rapists, I have a hard time seeing HOW it is the case that all are saved, and I further have a hard time being concerned that people who do such things are in hell. That is perhaps a failing on my part, but there is a strain in ancient Christian literature of rejoicing in the just judgments of God; St. Ephrem specifically mentions the just laughing at seeing the damned in hell. That seems a bit too much for me, but maybe I am not as horrified by sin as I should be. Given my own failings, that is probably the case.

I suppose it is a logical outcome of "loving the enemy" to have such hope.  But I like you also think of ISIS and have a hard time to fathom hoping for their salvation as wel.

I liked a recent Copt's honesty, and I can't help but reiterate.  God bless the survivors who truly forgave their families' killers and wish for their salvation.  They are a source of hope and salvation for me.  But at this moment, I sympathize with many other Copts who wish them to be destroyed and sent to hell.

+1

Honestly, the Copts have become, for me, a sign of contradiction, and I'm not sure what to make of it.  Sometimes I'm tempted by the thought that people are saying what they think they ought to say or that they are brainwashed in some way, but usually I'm silenced by the feeling that the Lord is making good on what he promised in Lk 12.12 and 21.15, and that I am actually listening to the Holy Spirit and not, say, some five year old girl. 

Even so, I wonder how it is that the Copts have not formed militias to defend themselves as their Syriac brethren have done in certain places where they are also persecuted.  I've taken it for granted up to now that they are waiting on God to defend them, and that this is the deliberate decision of an entire people which is rooted in their deep and sincerely held theological conviction. 

But if there are a lot of Copts who wish for their enemies to be destroyed and sent to hell, I wonder how they have managed to resist the urge to help that process along.  Also, how is the Church ministering to these people?  Maybe I haven't been paying as much attention, but everything I see concerns the victims' families' forgiveness and Christian witness, the need for prayer, expressions of forgiveness and love for the attackers, etc., but I haven't come across much acknowledgement and validation of the feelings you describe, even if it's just to try and redirect it.

Forgive me, I'm not trying to offend, but this entire phenomenon is something I have difficulty with.   

I was under the impression that the Sutoro had the blessing of Assad, whereas with the Copts, General Sisi is their ally and they would not want to provoke him or receive reduced support from the existing security services.

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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2017, 10:37:42 PM »
I wonder — are we obligated to hope this? I certainly think it better that everyone repent and find forgiveness, and, in a general way, I guess I do hope for that. But when I contemplate things like the atrocities committed by ISIS or war crimes or suicide bombers or child rapists, I have a hard time seeing HOW it is the case that all are saved, and I further have a hard time being concerned that people who do such things are in hell. That is perhaps a failing on my part, but there is a strain in ancient Christian literature of rejoicing in the just judgments of God; St. Ephrem specifically mentions the just laughing at seeing the damned in hell. That seems a bit too much for me, but maybe I am not as horrified by sin as I should be. Given my own failings, that is probably the case.

I suppose it is a logical outcome of "loving the enemy" to have such hope.  But I like you also think of ISIS and have a hard time to fathom hoping for their salvation as wel.

I liked a recent Copt's honesty, and I can't help but reiterate.  God bless the survivors who truly forgave their families' killers and wish for their salvation.  They are a source of hope and salvation for me.  But at this moment, I sympathize with many other Copts who wish them to be destroyed and sent to hell.

+1

Honestly, the Copts have become, for me, a sign of contradiction, and I'm not sure what to make of it.  Sometimes I'm tempted by the thought that people are saying what they think they ought to say or that they are brainwashed in some way, but usually I'm silenced by the feeling that the Lord is making good on what he promised in Lk 12.12 and 21.15, and that I am actually listening to the Holy Spirit and not, say, some five year old girl. 

Even so, I wonder how it is that the Copts have not formed militias to defend themselves as their Syriac brethren have done in certain places where they are also persecuted.  I've taken it for granted up to now that they are waiting on God to defend them, and that this is the deliberate decision of an entire people which is rooted in their deep and sincerely held theological conviction. 

But if there are a lot of Copts who wish for their enemies to be destroyed and sent to hell, I wonder how they have managed to resist the urge to help that process along.  Also, how is the Church ministering to these people?  Maybe I haven't been paying as much attention, but everything I see concerns the victims' families' forgiveness and Christian witness, the need for prayer, expressions of forgiveness and love for the attackers, etc., but I haven't come across much acknowledgement and validation of the feelings you describe, even if it's just to try and redirect it.

Forgive me, I'm not trying to offend, but this entire phenomenon is something I have difficulty with.   

Well, in history the last known Coptic militia were Nile Delta group near Damietta and Mansoura called the Peshmurian Copts (not to be confused with the Peshmerga Kurds) in the 9th century.  They were formidable, and the Caliphate had a difficult time with them, which only ended with naive negotiations of the Coptic and Syriac patriarchs interceding to have the Peshmurians to stop.

Another militia formed much more recently in the turn of the 19th century.  So the idea of a Coptic militia is not foreign, and a few netodox Copts have even called for a "Coptic nationalism" movement.  The clergy however was never in support of a militia, at least not openly.  The clergy were always peacemakers, and the Muslim leaders have always used them to quell any protests.  The present "Coptic nationalist" movement is implicitly anti-clergy, but it is quite a small group at the moment.

There are more Copts I talk to that just simply have human reactions to what occur in Egypt.  We do have a fascinating vocal group of pacifist Copts that are sincere on tv for their forgiveness of enemies, and we do have a good Sunday School education that does stress our pride in the history of the martyrs that probably has an effect on why you see what is faith-inspiring.  But I am beginning to see what is a growing social media presence of the wearing thin of Coptic patience as well despite praise of pro-Coptic Muslims for the strength of Egyptian patriotism of Copts against all odds.  But it is getting tiring to hear those "praises" and it is somewhat condescending, like "good boy Copt!"  A few days after the attacks, a viral video went around of a mass Coptic protest where they used part of an Islamic shehada with a Christian response:  "La Illaha illa Allah...w'al Massih howa Allah!" (There is no God but Allah, and the Christ is Allah!)

So at the moment, out of the respect of the strong pacifist religious convictions of the families of the victims and the support of the clergy, they stay silent, but the question is for how long.  Even Coptic people are still human despite a strong deified few who has the divine ability to forgive and to love and pray and hope for their enemies' salvation.
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2017, 10:49:33 PM »
   It's a sobering thought that only 8 people in the entire world were saved in Noah's flood and that only 3 people were saved from Sodom and Gomorrah when they were destroyed.

Well, good point, although Orthodox theology makes the salvation of thise people post mortem directly  possible via the Harrowing of Hell.
Does it, though?
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2017, 10:56:00 PM »
So at the moment, out of the respect of the strong pacifist religious convictions of the families of the victims and the support of the clergy, they stay silent, but the question is for how long.  Even Coptic people are still human despite a strong deified few who has the divine ability to forgive and to love and pray and hope for their enemies' salvation.
Do you get harassed for eating bacon, stuff like that? I hate that.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2017, 11:06:06 PM »
So at the moment, out of the respect of the strong pacifist religious convictions of the families of the victims and the support of the clergy, they stay silent, but the question is for how long.  Even Coptic people are still human despite a strong deified few who has the divine ability to forgive and to love and pray and hope for their enemies' salvation.
Do you get harassed for eating bacon, stuff like that? I hate that.

Believe it or not, in certain areas of Egypt, yes, although not bacon, but other forms of pork, IF FOUND, tends to be an insult to a Muslim if you eat it near one.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2017, 11:09:28 PM »
You don't get harassed for bacon? Why is that an exception?
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2017, 11:13:31 PM »
Because bacon.  How can it not be an exception??
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2017, 11:29:07 PM »
You don't get harassed for bacon? Why is that an exception?
hahahahaha! Stupid question. Bacon is an indicator. It indicates things. Probably if you are serving bacon, you could get away with sausages, and everybody knows it, too, C'mon?

(PS. J/k. Great question, it's just that I'm a jerk. :))
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 12:24:10 AM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline William T

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2017, 12:10:33 AM »
You don't get harassed for bacon? Why is that an exception?

Off the top of my head there is nothing in the Arab world that equates with bacon.  The closest pork products in family resemblance of food come from Greece.

I don't know if Egyptians do this, and I'm.not a butcher so I don't know the equivalence: but you may be able to do a pork awarma if you want to experience an Arabic styled breakfast with pork
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 12:16:02 AM by William T »
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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2017, 12:29:59 AM »
A few days after the attacks, a viral video went around of a mass Coptic protest where they used part of an Islamic shehada with a Christian response:  "La Illaha illa Allah...w'al Massih howa Allah!" (There is no God but Allah, and the Christ is Allah!)

I'd like to see that video. 
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2017, 02:04:46 AM »
I have no problems with there being a vengeful God. In fact, I'm glad that there is one. It makes God more relatable, as far as I am concerned. Nevertheless, I don't find this to be mutually exclusive to universal salvation. Not only do I hope all will be saved, but at some point, I think all will be saved. A lot of people go on and on about the love of God to the near exclusion of his jealousy, anger, etc. these days. They even ignore Jesus' wrath in the Temple. And the people who tend to propose this obfuscated view, are all too often associated with feel-goody vague philanthropies. And those type of people tend to be the most tyrannical of all, for anyone who doesn't accord with their kindness must necessarily be evil and must be fought. They are, at least in my experience, incapable of appreciating complexity nor the limitations of their own judicial capacities, which God has endowed them with.

But again, yes, not only do I hope all will be saved, I fully expect they will be at some point.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 02:12:48 AM by Rohzek »
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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2017, 02:42:07 AM »
I have no problems with there being a vengeful God. In fact, I'm glad that there is one. It makes God more relatable, as far as I am concerned. Nevertheless, I don't find this to be mutually exclusive to universal salvation. Not only do I hope all will be saved, but at some point, I think all will be saved. A lot of people go on and on about the love of God to the near exclusion of his jealousy, anger, etc. these days. They even ignore Jesus' wrath in the Temple. And the people who tend to propose this obfuscated view, are all too often associated with feel-goody vague philanthropies. And those type of people tend to be the most tyrannical of all, for anyone who doesn't accord with their kindness must necessarily be evil and must be fought. They are, at least in my experience, incapable of appreciating complexity nor the limitations of their own judicial capacities, which God has endowed them with.

But again, yes, not only do I hope all will be saved, I fully expect they will be at some point.

+1


Selam
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Offline sestir

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2017, 05:37:15 AM »
I have no problems with there being a vengeful God.

May I ask a question since a lot of Orthodox people are supposed to frequent this forum...
Would it be unOrthodox to hold the exact opposite firm conviction that God is not vengeful at all but striving for maximum justice irregardless of his own feelings? And wouldn't it make God's ministry a whole lot harder, to make him out as a potential threat and a problem, for isn't a vengeful person considered a problem in most societies? Is this your application of the golden rule to your best friend or to your foe?

On topic: Isn't Paul (from Tarsos who wrote many of the NT epistles) an example of approximately where, along the highway to hell, it becomes impossible to turn back?

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2017, 06:02:48 AM »
I have no problems with there being a vengeful God.

May I ask a question since a lot of Orthodox people are supposed to frequent this forum...
Would it be unOrthodox to hold the exact opposite firm conviction that God is not vengeful at all but striving for maximum justice irregardless of his own feelings? And wouldn't it make God's ministry a whole lot harder, to make him out as a potential threat and a problem, for isn't a vengeful person considered a problem in most societies? Is this your application of the golden rule to your best friend or to your foe?

On topic: Isn't Paul (from Tarsos who wrote many of the NT epistles) an example of approximately where, along the highway to hell, it becomes impossible to turn back?


I'm not very clear about your overall question. But I would point out that the Orthodox view of God does not admit such a dichotomy as you present between God's nature and God's will. This is one of the fundamental differences between Orthodoxy and most Western Protestant views of God. God's will is not somehow bound by His nature. Justice and love are not at war with each other.

Selam
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2017, 06:31:17 AM »
Jesus assures us that He is just when He says assuredly I say to you you shall not get out of there until you have payed the last penny. Therefore if they are in the tormenting regions of hell supposing there is some less tormenting it is because they are not truly repentant and they would never have come to God within the number of years of life they deserve no matter how blessed their life is but if they are truly repentant it means their previous actions do not truly represent fully who they are.  Still it is appointed to men once to die and afterwards the judgement. Some think only satan and those who reject God till death are those who make full choice. So it is possible people make their full choice now. 
Therefore they will never have any peace. Otherwise I think they will not go to heaven but they won't have as much torment in hell though all hell is bad.

One can deceive himself that he is a good person so has nothing to worry about. Many people can convince themselves evil is good

But do I hope that all be saved ? Only if heaven will still be heaven with them in it and if they are really good. I wish all those to be saved who seem to have perished who were not treated fairly who have a good excuse. Note I said good excuse because not every excuse though understandable may be acceptable. But we can not assume people are not treated fairly

Just some thoughts I could be wrong


« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 06:34:31 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline sestir

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2017, 06:38:02 AM »
This is one of the fundamental differences between Orthodoxy and most Western Protestant views of God.

I think it's a difference between people of the book (such as Orthodox Christians, Karaite Jews, Western Protestants and Shia Muslims) on the one hand, and heathens (atheists, agnostics, humanists and others) on the other hand, the second group being in majority throughout earth by far and one we must avoid being misunderstood by. In other words, most people presume that revenge increases global injustice.

This is not my own definition or perception of the meaning of the word but I find that most people around me are of this opinion:
Quote from: General Wesc
Revenge is poison. Revenge doesn't benefit anyone. Punishment and accountability are all good and well but revenge is simply an expression of hate through hurting somebody.
Everything2.com

Would we really want God to be associated with such a negatively charged concept?

Offline sestir

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2017, 06:46:36 AM »
I'm not very clear about your overall question. But I would point out that the Orthodox view of God does not admit such a dichotomy as you present between God's nature and God's will. [...]

Curiously, I feel pretty sure I understand your answer right, as saying: it depends on the definition of "revenge" where a Christian will presume that divine revenge is just, whereas other groups might presume something else. In any case thanks for the answer!  :)

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2017, 06:54:40 AM »
Revenge is not justice if the person should be saved. God loves those He judges but they must be judged for the good of the world.
God does take vengeance but only when their time is fulfilled
If He kept forgiving people even after given many chances it might continue too long for all or much good to be destroyed

Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2017, 09:25:14 AM »
The great objection I have towards eternal hell and the eternal perdition of even one soul is that I believe we are all responsible for the perishing of this one soul. If one man perishes, I feel that I am too guilty for that. And I have a Hard time imagining a paradise of eternal bliss and brotherly love as long as there is suffering in the universe... But perhaps that is just me. I am a lawless person and have lived a lawless life, and I think that has resulted in that I feel more sympathy for the judged than the judge. Sometimes I have the feeling that those who are Most in danger of perdition, are those who wish eternal hell for others but Believe that they themselves Will be saved. And this tendency have been quite common in Christian history to be honest. I cant stand cruelty. And I dont accept the idea that God is cruel. Many Christians in history have terrorised others with eternal torment in hell, saying that they will go there, while believing that they themselves Will be spared. That seems somewhat strange to me. Many people  (the Church especially in the west during the middle ages, but also modern protestant denominations in especially America) have oppressed and controlled People with the threats of damnation, and it seems like the psychological instinct behind this is often a sadistic one based on a Will to power.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #55 on: June 15, 2017, 09:36:57 AM »
I mean... How can I possibly serve another person in unfeigned humility if I seriously regard his sinfulness as worse than my own? The Will of God, even how hard it is to follow, is that man shall defeat his enemies by loving them, not by sending them to hell.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 09:39:37 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Jude1:3

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #56 on: June 15, 2017, 09:46:46 AM »
A Scripture to consider :

According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay,
Fury to His adversaries,
Recompense to His Enemies;
The coastlands He will fully repay.
• Isaiah 59:18


It's foreign to us because we love God but there are people in the world who are enemies of God.


The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your Enemies Your footstool.”
• Psalm 110:1

The people who take the mark of the beast and worship the beast are God's Enemies in Revelation.

Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #57 on: June 15, 2017, 09:57:40 AM »
A Scripture to consider :

According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay,
Fury to His adversaries,
Recompense to His Enemies;
The coastlands He will fully repay.
• Isaiah 59:18


It's foreign to us because we love God but there are people in the world who are enemies of God.


The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your Enemies Your footstool.”
• Psalm 110:1

The people who take the mark of the beast and worship the beast are God's Enemies in Revelation.
Yes But perhaps we have a tendency to project our fallen human since of concepts like "repay ", "vengeance", etc? I am not denying that the bible is full of passages that seems to indicate eternal hell, but what I am saying is that we should not Hope for anyone to suffer forever. We have all been God's enemies. The perdition of Another soul is also partly on me. I too am responsible for it in a way.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 09:59:30 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Jude1:3

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #58 on: June 15, 2017, 10:16:29 AM »
A Scripture to consider :

According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay,
Fury to His adversaries,
Recompense to His Enemies;
The coastlands He will fully repay.
• Isaiah 59:18


It's foreign to us because we love God but there are people in the world who are enemies of God.


The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your Enemies Your footstool.”
• Psalm 110:1

The people who take the mark of the beast and worship the beast are God's Enemies in Revelation.
Yes But perhaps we have a tendency to project our fallen human since of concepts like "repay ", "vengeance", etc? I am not denying that the bible is full of passages that seems to indicate eternal hell, but what I am saying is that we should not Hope for anyone to suffer forever. We have all been God's enemies. The perdition of Another soul is also partly on me. I too am responsible for it in a way.


You're right.

It's hard for us as Christians to really even imagine that there are people in the world that have sunken to such levels of evil that they are going to actually try and fight against The Lord at His return:

Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:

• Psalm 2:1-5

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #59 on: June 15, 2017, 10:21:50 AM »
You don't get harassed for bacon? Why is that an exception?

I meant to say no one makes bacon in Egypt as far as I'm aware
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 10:22:07 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #60 on: June 15, 2017, 10:29:16 AM »
A few days after the attacks, a viral video went around of a mass Coptic protest where they used part of an Islamic shehada with a Christian response:  "La Illaha illa Allah...w'al Massih howa Allah!" (There is no God but Allah, and the Christ is Allah!)

I'd like to see that video.

https://twitter.com/gmakary99/status/869691153569898496
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #61 on: June 15, 2017, 10:50:53 AM »
I have no problems with there being a vengeful God.

May I ask a question since a lot of Orthodox people are supposed to frequent this forum...
Would it be unOrthodox to hold the exact opposite firm conviction that God is not vengeful at all but striving for maximum justice irregardless of his own feelings? And wouldn't it make God's ministry a whole lot harder, to make him out as a potential threat and a problem, for isn't a vengeful person considered a problem in most societies? Is this your application of the golden rule to your best friend or to your foe?

On topic: Isn't Paul (from Tarsos who wrote many of the NT epistles) an example of approximately where, along the highway to hell, it becomes impossible to turn back?


I'm not very clear about your overall question. But I would point out that the Orthodox view of God does not admit such a dichotomy as you present between God's nature and God's will. This is one of the fundamental differences between Orthodoxy and most Western Protestant views of God. God's will is not somehow bound by His nature. Justice and love are not at war with each other.

Selam

I was wondering if you can expand on this, specifically the idea that God's will is not bound by His nature
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #62 on: June 15, 2017, 11:02:18 AM »
I'm not very clear about your overall question. But I would point out that the Orthodox view of God does not admit such a dichotomy as you present between God's nature and God's will. [...]

Curiously, I feel pretty sure I understand your answer right, as saying: it depends on the definition of "revenge" where a Christian will presume that divine revenge is just, whereas other groups might presume something else. In any case thanks for the answer!  :)

I tend to think that based on the incomprehensible nature of God, God is vengeful in a way we are not able to fathom.  Our vengeance (and wrath) are usually from human weakness, and there are very few reasons to be wrathful or vengeful, if possible that we can reach such a spiritual state to allow ourselves these characteristics.  But we don't model God based on our behavior; we model our behavior based on God.  Therefore, I'm not sure we can say he's "relatable" on that end.  I could be wrong, but that is the way I think of these passages.

Sometimes I wonder if real vengeance is conversion.  Christian vengeance on Saul is that he became Paul, not destroyed, but renewed.  I've heard it said before vengeance should be against the demons alone.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 11:08:19 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #63 on: June 15, 2017, 11:11:04 AM »
You don't get harassed for bacon? Why is that an exception?

I meant to say no one makes bacon in Egypt as far as I'm aware
I think I now understand why there is so much violence over there.
God bless!

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #64 on: June 15, 2017, 11:13:35 AM »
Too soon bro
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #65 on: June 15, 2017, 12:04:30 PM »
I'm sorry.  I opened it up for that, please forgive me.    :-[
"Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that."  ~me

Taking a hiatus.  Pray for me, a sinner.

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #66 on: June 16, 2017, 10:25:08 PM »
I'm sorry.  I opened it up for that, please forgive me.    :-[
No you didn't. Don't blame yourself.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #67 on: June 17, 2017, 07:11:40 AM »
You don't get harassed for bacon? Why is that an exception?

Off the top of my head there is nothing in the Arab world that equates with bacon.  The closest pork products in family resemblance of food come from Greece.

I don't know if Egyptians do this, and I'm.not a butcher so I don't know the equivalence: but you may be able to do a pork awarma if you want to experience an Arabic styled breakfast with pork

maybe they should try raw liver pork ;D In levant we eat raw liver lamb in breakfast.

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #68 on: June 17, 2017, 07:31:28 AM »
I think now that the coptic church have many problem. One of the essential problem was defending sissi, and not just defending. For example father Makari younan was just like a ...... to sissi. And the intellectual copt in egypt are getting more and more far from this church. Some coptic friend say to me that the church is so much corrupt because that they go to be protestant or atheist i don't know if what they say is true.
The problem of the coptic church exist the same in the majority of oriental churches in some way.

Hoping that all the people be saved is a difficult thing to hope. maybe it come with time the majority of us now maybe cannot forgive the neighbor.

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #69 on: June 17, 2017, 10:59:25 AM »
Going to a Protestant church is different to being Protestant. You can believe the sacraments may be necessary or even that they are  so you don't abandon them but you don't have to judge Protestants that you think because you don't tell them they have no salvation without the church that it is not God's job to save them.  Why are you not able to understand this or admit this ?
You have to dialogue with Protestants if you want to encourage them to grow and perhaps come to unity of faith. Jesus said a kingdom divided against itself will not stand

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #70 on: June 17, 2017, 08:21:11 PM »
maybe they should try raw liver pork ;D In levant we eat raw liver lamb in breakfast.
?
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #71 on: June 26, 2017, 11:23:00 AM »
You also need not worry that good non Christians will not go to heaven but sinners will go to heaven. This is how satan deceives Christians and also those who don't want to follow God to convince them they are right. For example there could be a child from a non Christian family who is good obeys certain commandments like not doing some big sins but he disobeys a big commandment which is not to judge and to love others. Another child also from a non Christian family may have commited some big sins but he loves God and his neighbor as proved by his ability to be repentant and sorry for his sin.  The second child because he loves God not just in pretense will have no problem accepting Jesus
As Jesus said a man had 2 sons. The approved one was the one though he initially disobeyed he later obeyed because he loves his father while the other who seemed like the honourable son never did the will of the father because he did not love him. He is not condemned so much because he judges others without knowing he is being evil but because he has his own sins he does not want to repent of. Like the older son in the parable of the prodigal son and the Pharisee who judged the tax collector they did not actually love the father but wanted honor from Him above others by knowing His laws
those are the only people rejected by God who hate Him without a cause. If they are non Christian because they never knew what is required of them (maybe related to those in the 11th hour in the parable of the workers of the vineyard) they would not be judged as those who are wilfully ignorant they might even be saved or have little condemnation if they  deserve any or go to limbo or perish but such people I do not think exist as Jesus explains in parable of the workers of the vineyard God Himself finds such people as characterised by those people in the 11th hour who are ignorant   

So I don't know if anyone's hell will be little suffering because I think God may make sure those who want to obey God but do not know they need to He will make sure they know His will
But those who don't want to obey God maybe they will not know without preaching

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #72 on: June 26, 2017, 11:43:31 AM »
The one who does not love God above his father hates God without a cause. For that means he would love his father more even if he is evil while God is good. You have to trust God will come out good. He will overcome when He is judged

Also because I said you don't have to worry this does not mean you can sin with others and you are not responsible who knows if you will repent sufficiently for God to reach them but they are responsible for themselves and I don't know all the answers
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 11:46:07 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #73 on: June 26, 2017, 02:42:16 PM »
Some non Christians will however not know what God requires of them unless we repent but if we are saved there is no way they will not know I think

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #74 on: June 27, 2017, 12:44:48 AM »
I have no problems with there being a vengeful God.

May I ask a question since a lot of Orthodox people are supposed to frequent this forum...
Would it be unOrthodox to hold the exact opposite firm conviction that God is not vengeful at all but striving for maximum justice irregardless of his own feelings? And wouldn't it make God's ministry a whole lot harder, to make him out as a potential threat and a problem, for isn't a vengeful person considered a problem in most societies? Is this your application of the golden rule to your best friend or to your foe?

On topic: Isn't Paul (from Tarsos who wrote many of the NT epistles) an example of approximately where, along the highway to hell, it becomes impossible to turn back?


I'm not very clear about your overall question. But I would point out that the Orthodox view of God does not admit such a dichotomy as you present between God's nature and God's will. This is one of the fundamental differences between Orthodoxy and most Western Protestant views of God. God's will is not somehow bound by His nature. Justice and love are not at war with each other.

Selam

I was wondering if you can expand on this, specifically the idea that God's will is not bound by His nature

I guess I was trying to refute the voluntarism concept that pits the divine will against the divine nature. My understanding is that such a notion is unorthodox.

Selam
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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #75 on: June 27, 2017, 08:50:11 AM »
I did not mean to give the impression God does not love the sinner but I meant sinners can be righteous  and it is my hope that what I said about God giving special favor to certain non Christians is true whether it is or not I still hope for the same outcome so I want to teach the truth that God may use us also though He may use others
they may have to keep searching for the truth as Jesus said blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. The kingdom of heaven is like a pearl hidden. Therefore you have to seek it to know it it won't just be known to you.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 08:50:54 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #76 on: June 27, 2017, 09:09:30 AM »
He may give favor to certain people who He thinks deserves it but that is not the normal way everyone is responsible for themselves to seek the truth. Perhaps some are not saved who could have been saved but God is fair and everyone has their own choice. I do not know that but it could be. Actually I think it is likely God gives the same  chance to all and He gives favor to those who He thinks deserves it but does not promise to give favor to everyone who wants to obey the commandments. If they really love the commandments they will accept God. However He will reveal orthodoxy to Protestants if they need it if they are faithful to Him within their ability because they may not know jesus will for them and they are ready to leave all for Jesus and they make the choice to without knowing they had to

If that is the case perhaps no one will get to heaven easily for that may be cruel to those lost. It could be not all are destined for heaven except those who pleased God

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #77 on: August 01, 2017, 03:47:00 AM »
The idea of everybody being saved is far crueler than the idea of some or most people perishing in Hell for eternity. In fact, the day that happens is the day I voluntarily leave Heaven for Hell because I refuse to stand alongside the same person who got to indulge in a life of decadence and sin only to have a change of heart at the very end while I meanwhile busted my behind attempting to follow all of God's ridiculous rules and ordinances. If we all end up in the same place, then what was the point? There is no justice in knowing that the alpha who got to bed how many supermodels and the greedy CEO who made his fortune off of broke college kids like me having to collect carts in the >100 degree weather will not face eternal punishment. Frankly I have much more respect for a crueler, harsher, more vengeful God who pours out his wrath than I do for the loving liberal kind who forgives everything.

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #78 on: August 01, 2017, 04:22:14 AM »
The idea of everybody being saved is far crueler than the idea of some or most people perishing in Hell for eternity. In fact, the day that happens is the day I voluntarily leave Heaven for Hell because I refuse to stand alongside the same person who got to indulge in a life of decadence and sin only to have a change of heart at the very end while I meanwhile busted my behind attempting to follow all of God's ridiculous rules and ordinances. If we all end up in the same place, then what was the point? There is no justice in knowing that the alpha who got to bed how many supermodels and the greedy CEO who made his fortune off of broke college kids like me having to collect carts in the >100 degree weather will not face eternal punishment. Frankly I have much more respect for a crueler, harsher, more vengeful God who pours out his wrath than I do for the loving liberal kind who forgives everything.
Do you like the idea of any those "two" gods though? The whole thing is a mess, both inevitable universalism and inevitable eternal punishment is cruel and in the end absurd. Man is not Casua sui. Christianity agrees with this. And yet I find Christian theology to contradict this by its basic doctrines. It is really a hellish thought to imagine being thrown in to existence without consent by a wrathful God without understanding his true purpose for creating in the first place. A more horrible prison, where I really cant escape but am guilty for just being born and where eternal punishment awaits me if I don't follow this mystical God's demands, is a ridiculous nightmare. The whole reward/punishment thinking is primitve and superficial and often interpreted hedonistically. What is explained if I live forever? I still wonder why I am, and if I am not satisfied with being, I will be punished unless I repent from this pessimism.  This while Justice -thinking, as if justice means "Now I have suffered this much, while he, who is worse than me, hasn't suffered. Life sucks if there isn't going to be any Balance here and 'justification' of suffering. Now it is my turn to experience their blessing and more blessing! And their turn to suffer!". Now, what is even wrong with suffering? Suffering makes it possible for man to reach his highest states and transcend himself. It is the beginning of Most great creative works of art. Yet man refuses to see the suffering element of God in eternity, because he can't simply understand artistic elements of life. In other words, I might really ask : Why is a world without suffering needed for those in bliss? Is that really a bliss, to never suffer? Suffering is what makes it possible for man to reach his heights. That is what superficial thinkers don't understand. Why is a world with suffering bad? Why hope for a world without it? Without struggle, life is meaningless and boring. Great artistic achievements impossible. Everyone with the ambition to master an art knows that. But perhaps you don't appreciate art.
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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #79 on: August 01, 2017, 04:46:42 AM »
The idea of everybody being saved is far crueler than the idea of some or most people perishing in Hell for eternity. In fact, the day that happens is the day I voluntarily leave Heaven for Hell because I refuse to stand alongside the same person who got to indulge in a life of decadence and sin only to have a change of heart at the very end while I meanwhile busted my behind attempting to follow all of God's ridiculous rules and ordinances. If we all end up in the same place, then what was the point? There is no justice in knowing that the alpha who got to bed how many supermodels and the greedy CEO who made his fortune off of broke college kids like me having to collect carts in the >100 degree weather will not face eternal punishment. Frankly I have much more respect for a crueler, harsher, more vengeful God who pours out his wrath than I do for the loving liberal kind who forgives everything.
Do you like the idea of any those "two" gods though? The whole thing is a mess, both inevitable universalism and inevitable eternal punishment is cruel and in the end absurd. Man is not Casua sui. Christianity agrees with this. And yet I find Christian theology to contradict this by its basic doctrines. It is really a hellish thought to imagine being thrown in to existence without consent by a wrathful God without understanding his true purpose for creating in the first place. A more horrible prison, where I really cant escape but am guilty for just being born and where eternal punishment awaits me if I don't follow this mystical God's demands, is a ridiculous nightmare. The whole reward/punishment thinking is primitve and superficial and often interpreted hedonistically. What is explained if I live forever? I still wonder why I am, and if I am not satisfied with being, I will be punished unless I repent from this pessimism.  This while Justice -thinking, as if justice means "Now I have suffered this much, while he, who is worse than me, hasn't suffered. Life sucks if there isn't going to be any Balance here and 'justification' of suffering. Now it is my turn to experience their blessing and more blessing! And their turn to suffer!". Now, what is even wrong with suffering? Suffering makes it possible for man to reach his highest states and transcend himself. It is the beginning of Most great creative works of art. Yet man refuses to see the suffering element of God in eternity, because he can't simply understand artistic elements of life. In other words, I might really ask : Why is a world without suffering needed for those in bliss? Is that really a bliss, to never suffer? Suffering is what makes it possible for man to reach his heights. That is what superficial thinkers don't understand. Why is a world with suffering bad? Why hope for a world without it? Without struggle, life is meaningless and boring. Great artistic achievements impossible. Everyone with the ambition to master an art knows that. But perhaps you don't appreciate art.

God is a Divine Jigsaw. I went into that before and was lauded for it, but I still stand by it. God, as you alluded to, has forced each and everyone of us into a divine game of chess where the repercussions for failure are eternal punishment, all by virtue of simply being born. And without an option to forfeit, at that. We were forced into existence and given no way out. We will either succeed according to his rules or perish by them. Suffering is not bad; far from it. Rather it is existing in a sort of hybridization of neither suffering nor pleasure that is bad, a world of unfeeling and numbness. In other words, the state of the modern world. Yet even so, I long to see the day that the worst sinners like fornicators, abortionists, and pimps are cast into the everlasting fire. Granted, it might be more just to simply annihilate them out of existence after they have suffered for a fair amount of time to atone for their sins while on Earth.

Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #80 on: August 01, 2017, 04:51:16 AM »
The idea of everybody being saved is far crueler than the idea of some or most people perishing in Hell for eternity. In fact, the day that happens is the day I voluntarily leave Heaven for Hell because I refuse to stand alongside the same person who got to indulge in a life of decadence and sin only to have a change of heart at the very end while I meanwhile busted my behind attempting to follow all of God's ridiculous rules and ordinances. If we all end up in the same place, then what was the point? There is no justice in knowing that the alpha who got to bed how many supermodels and the greedy CEO who made his fortune off of broke college kids like me having to collect carts in the >100 degree weather will not face eternal punishment. Frankly I have much more respect for a crueler, harsher, more vengeful God who pours out his wrath than I do for the loving liberal kind who forgives everything.
Do you like the idea of any those "two" gods though? The whole thing is a mess, both inevitable universalism and inevitable eternal punishment is cruel and in the end absurd. Man is not Casua sui. Christianity agrees with this. And yet I find Christian theology to contradict this by its basic doctrines. It is really a hellish thought to imagine being thrown in to existence without consent by a wrathful God without understanding his true purpose for creating in the first place. A more horrible prison, where I really cant escape but am guilty for just being born and where eternal punishment awaits me if I don't follow this mystical God's demands, is a ridiculous nightmare. The whole reward/punishment thinking is primitve and superficial and often interpreted hedonistically. What is explained if I live forever? I still wonder why I am, and if I am not satisfied with being, I will be punished unless I repent from this pessimism.  This while Justice -thinking, as if justice means "Now I have suffered this much, while he, who is worse than me, hasn't suffered. Life sucks if there isn't going to be any Balance here and 'justification' of suffering. Now it is my turn to experience their blessing and more blessing! And their turn to suffer!". Now, what is even wrong with suffering? Suffering makes it possible for man to reach his highest states and transcend himself. It is the beginning of Most great creative works of art. Yet man refuses to see the suffering element of God in eternity, because he can't simply understand artistic elements of life. In other words, I might really ask : Why is a world without suffering needed for those in bliss? Is that really a bliss, to never suffer? Suffering is what makes it possible for man to reach his heights. That is what superficial thinkers don't understand. Why is a world with suffering bad? Why hope for a world without it? Without struggle, life is meaningless and boring. Great artistic achievements impossible. Everyone with the ambition to master an art knows that. But perhaps you don't appreciate art.

God is a Divine Jigsaw. I went into that before and was lauded for it, but I still stand by it. God, as you alluded to, has forced each and everyone of us into a divine game of chess where the repercussions for failure are eternal punishment, all by virtue of simply being born. And without an option to forfeit, at that. We were forced into existence and given no way out. We will either succeed according to his rules or perish by them. Suffering is not bad; far from it. Rather it is existing in a sort of hybridization of neither suffering nor pleasure that is bad, a world of unfeeling and numbness. In other words, the state of the modern world. Yet even so, I long to see the day that the worst sinners like fornicators, abortionists, and pimps are cast into the everlasting fire. Granted, it might be more just to simply annihilate them out of existence after they have suffered for a fair amount of time to atone for their sins while on Earth.
We agree about God. Though I am ambivalent there. What I find in traditional Christian theology is a Divine Jigsaw. A cruel totalitarian. What I find in the music of Schubert etc. Though is something completely different. Where we disagree is about what we wish.

"Suffering is not bad; far from it. Rather it is existing in a sort of hybridization of neither suffering nor pleasure that is bad, a world of unfeeling and numbness."

This is very true
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 04:52:07 AM by beebert »
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Offline WPM

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #81 on: August 01, 2017, 04:57:25 AM »
Hmm . . . if you're Christian and believe the Bible. Doesn't mean X,Y,Z and that other stuff.
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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #82 on: August 01, 2017, 05:10:02 AM »
I also need to point out that whenever I listen to the great Music of Schubert, Bach, Beethoven etc. I can't help finding a christian element in it that I deeply appreciate. So in the end you observarions are too superficial.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 05:10:22 AM by beebert »
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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #83 on: August 01, 2017, 06:31:29 AM »
The idea of everybody being saved is far crueler than the idea of some or most people perishing in Hell for eternity. In fact, the day that happens is the day I voluntarily leave Heaven for Hell because I refuse to stand alongside the same person who got to indulge in a life of decadence and sin only to have a change of heart at the very end while I meanwhile busted my behind attempting to follow all of God's ridiculous rules and ordinances. If we all end up in the same place, then what was the point? There is no justice in knowing that the alpha who got to bed how many supermodels and the greedy CEO who made his fortune off of broke college kids like me having to collect carts in the >100 degree weather will not face eternal punishment. Frankly I have much more respect for a crueler, harsher, more vengeful God who pours out his wrath than I do for the loving liberal kind who forgives everything.
Do you like the idea of any those "two" gods though? The whole thing is a mess, both inevitable universalism and inevitable eternal punishment is cruel and in the end absurd. Man is not Casua sui. Christianity agrees with this. And yet I find Christian theology to contradict this by its basic doctrines. It is really a hellish thought to imagine being thrown in to existence without consent by a wrathful God without understanding his true purpose for creating in the first place. A more horrible prison, where I really cant escape but am guilty for just being born and where eternal punishment awaits me if I don't follow this mystical God's demands, is a ridiculous nightmare. The whole reward/punishment thinking is primitve and superficial and often interpreted hedonistically. What is explained if I live forever? I still wonder why I am, and if I am not satisfied with being, I will be punished unless I repent from this pessimism.  This while Justice -thinking, as if justice means "Now I have suffered this much, while he, who is worse than me, hasn't suffered. Life sucks if there isn't going to be any Balance here and 'justification' of suffering. Now it is my turn to experience their blessing and more blessing! And their turn to suffer!". Now, what is even wrong with suffering? Suffering makes it possible for man to reach his highest states and transcend himself. It is the beginning of Most great creative works of art. Yet man refuses to see the suffering element of God in eternity, because he can't simply understand artistic elements of life. In other words, I might really ask : Why is a world without suffering needed for those in bliss? Is that really a bliss, to never suffer? Suffering is what makes it possible for man to reach his heights. That is what superficial thinkers don't understand. Why is a world with suffering bad? Why hope for a world without it? Without struggle, life is meaningless and boring. Great artistic achievements impossible. Everyone with the ambition to master an art knows that. But perhaps you don't appreciate art.

God is a Divine Jigsaw. I went into that before and was lauded for it, but I still stand by it. God, as you alluded to, has forced each and everyone of us into a divine game of chess where the repercussions for failure are eternal punishment, all by virtue of simply being born. And without an option to forfeit, at that. We were forced into existence and given no way out. We will either succeed according to his rules or perish by them. Suffering is not bad; far from it. Rather it is existing in a sort of hybridization of neither suffering nor pleasure that is bad, a world of unfeeling and numbness. In other words, the state of the modern world. Yet even so, I long to see the day that the worst sinners like fornicators, abortionists, and pimps are cast into the everlasting fire. Granted, it might be more just to simply annihilate them out of existence after they have suffered for a fair amount of time to atone for their sins while on Earth.

So you never suffered this way (like you describe that they must suffer)? You can't take this for more time than minutes... Why you think God will allow that? He will not make such thing because no one alive can take it.

Offline RobS

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #84 on: August 01, 2017, 07:26:04 AM »
The idea of everybody being saved is far crueler than the idea of some or most people perishing in Hell for eternity. In fact, the day that happens is the day I voluntarily leave Heaven for Hell because I refuse to stand alongside the same person who got to indulge in a life of decadence and sin only to have a change of heart at the very end while I meanwhile busted my behind attempting to follow all of God's ridiculous rules and ordinances. If we all end up in the same place, then what was the point? There is no justice in knowing that the alpha who got to bed how many supermodels and the greedy CEO who made his fortune off of broke college kids like me having to collect carts in the >100 degree weather will not face eternal punishment. Frankly I have much more respect for a crueler, harsher, more vengeful God who pours out his wrath than I do for the loving liberal kind who forgives everything.
JamesR is back! I think you are gonna get from God what you want, the Final Judgment talk in the Gospels is scary.

I think the idea of universal salvation kind of makes Christianity nihilistic. Last I checked justice is part of the Gospels.

What confused me recently was the notion that God is going to judge everything you have done in your earthly life but if you already repented for your sins then how could you be held accountable? Dont think that was explained to me well recently at my parish.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 07:30:54 AM by nothing »
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #85 on: August 01, 2017, 07:38:25 AM »
The idea of everybody being saved is far crueler than the idea of some or most people perishing in Hell for eternity. In fact, the day that happens is the day I voluntarily leave Heaven for Hell because I refuse to stand alongside the same person who got to indulge in a life of decadence and sin only to have a change of heart at the very end while I meanwhile busted my behind attempting to follow all of God's ridiculous rules and ordinances. If we all end up in the same place, then what was the point? There is no justice in knowing that the alpha who got to bed how many supermodels and the greedy CEO who made his fortune off of broke college kids like me having to collect carts in the >100 degree weather will not face eternal punishment. Frankly I have much more respect for a crueler, harsher, more vengeful God who pours out his wrath than I do for the loving liberal kind who forgives everything.
JamesR is back! I think you are gonna get from God what you want, the Final Judgment talk in the Gospels is scary.

I think the idea of universal salvation kind of makes Christianity nihilistic. Last I checked justice is part of the Gospels.

What confused me recently was the notion that God is going to judge everything you have done in your earthly life but if you already repented for your sins then how could you be held accountable? Dont think that was explained to me well recently at my parish.
Both inevitable universalism and inevitable eternal punishment is nihilistic IMO. The kind of hopeful universalism of Starets Silouan and Fyodor Dostoevsky is right now the only kind of christianity that I don't find nihilistic.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 07:38:42 AM by beebert »
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Offline RobS

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #86 on: August 01, 2017, 07:46:15 AM »
The kind of hopeful universalism of Starets Silouan and Fyodor Dostoevsky is right now the only kind of christianity that I don't find nihilistic.
Interesting, can you describe their kind of universalism further? By Dosteosvsky do you mean Elder Zosima from TBK? I dont know anything about St. Silouan.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 07:47:12 AM by nothing »
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #87 on: August 01, 2017, 07:47:48 AM »
Last I checked justice is part of the Gospels.

But it is always, every single time, a type of justice that vindicates and raises up "the least" and the most vulnerable, the type of justice that mercy triumphs over, the type which allows things like 'love' and 'humility' to stand in for punishment and fines ("Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little"). When most people think of justice they're thinking along the same lines that the non-prodigal son did in the parable of the Prodigal Son. He stayed at home, he didn't waste his inheritance, he didn't live a sinful lifestyle, he didn't embarrass the family, he didn't pathetically crawl back just hoping to get a roof over his head, he was hard working and did things the right way; he was also the one who was presented as not understanding salvation or God's love when he complained about how unjust the treatment of the prodigal son was. Fear regarding the Judgment, at first, might indeed have something to do with that non-prodigal-son type of justice, but it (ideally) is supposed to give way to something different: turning from a feeling of inadequacy having to do with an inability to live up to the 'commandments' or to achieve a certain baseline of good deeds, into an understanding that you claimed to love someone but sometimes went about that relationship in a way which clearly demonstrated how self-absorbed you could be. The 'book of life' which we're to be judged out of is not so much a moral ledger with all our deeds, but more like a Russian novel which details our thoughts, deeds, intentions, etc. in intimate detail. That judgment has less to do with measuring scales, and more to do with whether you were a sympathetic character--thus the reason that even those who prophecy, preach, etc. (ie. who do good deeds) might still be told "I never knew you" if they had not proper intentions based in virtues like love.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 07:50:21 AM by Asteriktos »

Offline RobS

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #88 on: August 01, 2017, 07:58:10 AM »
Thanks for the correction Asteriktos, well said! Not sure if that will satisfy the wrathful venegenace JamesR hungers.  ;) Vengenace is mine and I will repay saith the Lord..
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #89 on: August 01, 2017, 09:57:40 AM »
The kind of hopeful universalism of Starets Silouan and Fyodor Dostoevsky is right now the only kind of christianity that I don't find nihilistic.
Interesting, can you describe their kind of universalism further? By Dosteosvsky do you mean Elder Zosima from TBK? I dont know anything about St. Silouan.
Yes I mean Zosima. But also Furst Myshkin and Alyosha and Dostoevsky himself talking through these characters. He knew nihilism and how to battle it. And remember, I who am in a Nietzsche period, Nietzsche admired Dostoevsky more than all other writers, philosophers and psychologists, saying that Dostoevsky was the One he had encountered who could really teach him something. Silouan is almost Dostoevsky's vision embodied. I really recommend you read him and Sophrony's book about him. He, Isaac Syrian and St Francis of Assisi are my favorite saints. And Gregory of Nyssa of course... There is no tendency towards sadism here. Here is from Sophrony's book on Silouan:

"I remember a conversation between him and a certain hermit, who declared with evident satisfaction, ‘God will punish all atheists. They will burn in everlasting fire.’

Obviously upset, The Staretz said:

‘Tell me, supposing you went to paradise and there looked down and saw somebody burning in hell-fire – would you feel happy?’

‘It can’t be helped. It would be their own fault,’ said the hermit.

The Staretz answered him with a sorrowful countenance:

‘Love could not bear that,’ he said. ‘We must pray for all’"

And here is another quote by Silouan:

“If the Lord saved you along with the entire multitude of your brethren, and one of the enemies of Christ and the Church remained in the outer darkness, would you not, along with all the others, set yourself to imploring the Lord to save this one unrepentant brother? If you would not beseech Him day and night, then your heart is of iron—but there is no need for iron in paradise.”

For Silouan; embracing the whole cosmos, loving all, and particularly the commandment to love ones enemies was the most important thing of all.

Read this in the link as a foretaste, it is written by Kalistos Ware:
https://orthodoxcityhermit.com/tag/st-silouan-and-our-relationship-as-humans-with-the-animals/
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 10:04:25 AM by beebert »
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Offline RobS

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #90 on: August 01, 2017, 10:04:23 AM »
Thanks beebs, is this the St. Silouan book you are talking about?

https://www.amazon.com/Saint-Silouan-Athonite-Archimandrite-Sophrony/dp/0881411957/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1501596149&sr=8-1&keywords=silouan+sophrony

I like Francis of Assisi too. I'll read your link later if I have the time. I'm posting from a phone.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #91 on: August 01, 2017, 10:06:04 AM »
Thanks beebs, is this the St. Silouan book you are talking about?

https://www.amazon.com/Saint-Silouan-Athonite-Archimandrite-Sophrony/dp/0881411957/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1501596149&sr=8-1&keywords=silouan+sophrony

I like Francis of Assisi too. I'll read your link later if I have the time. I'm posting from a phone.
That is the Book! I recommend it deeply. And I also really recommend the link I posted. Kallistos Ware is quite good. I guess you know about him?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 10:06:16 AM by beebert »
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Offline Indocern

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #92 on: August 01, 2017, 10:11:44 AM »
The kind of hopeful universalism of Starets Silouan and Fyodor Dostoevsky is right now the only kind of christianity that I don't find nihilistic.
Interesting, can you describe their kind of universalism further? By Dosteosvsky do you mean Elder Zosima from TBK? I dont know anything about St. Silouan.
Yes I mean Zosima. But also Furst Myshkin and Alyosha and Dostoevsky himself talking through these characters. He knew nihilism and how to battle it. And remember, I who am in a Nietzsche period, Nietzsche admired Dostoevsky more than all other writers, philosophers and psychologists, saying that Dostoevsky was the One he had encountered who could really teach him something. Silouan is almost Dostoevsky's vision embodied. I really recommend you read him and Sophrony's book about him. He, Isaac Syrian and St Francis of Assisi are my favorite saints. And Gregory of Nyssa of course... There is no tendency towards sadism here. Here is from Sophrony's book on Silouan:

"I remember a conversation between him and a certain hermit, who declared with evident satisfaction, ‘God will punish all atheists. They will burn in everlasting fire.’

Obviously upset, The Staretz said:

‘Tell me, supposing you went to paradise and there looked down and saw somebody burning in hell-fire – would you feel happy?’

‘It can’t be helped. It would be their own fault,’ said the hermit.

The Staretz answered him with a sorrowful countenance:

‘Love could not bear that,’ he said. ‘We must pray for all’"

And here is another quote by Silouan:

“If the Lord saved you along with the entire multitude of your brethren, and one of the enemies of Christ and the Church remained in the outer darkness, would you not, along with all the others, set yourself to imploring the Lord to save this one unrepentant brother? If you would not beseech Him day and night, then your heart is of iron—but there is no need for iron in paradise.”

For Silouan; embracing the whole cosmos, loving all, and particularly the commandment to love ones enemies was the most important thing of all.

Read this in the link as a foretaste, it is written by Kalistos Ware:
https://orthodoxcityhermit.com/tag/st-silouan-and-our-relationship-as-humans-with-the-animals/

How one would know what is in Heaven? All experience that believers told to the world never been experience with body. Soul, spirit and mind can get fake visions. If somebody tell you that he have been in Heaven with his body and there feel completely different then I think you can believe. But he must confess it is the same way that he is in earth with the body. But who will give him new body for the trip to Heaven if his body is on earth. Even in the Bible for person who have been to Heaven is said that he don't know if it is with or without body.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 10:13:28 AM by Indocern »

Offline RobS

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #93 on: August 01, 2017, 10:44:57 AM »
beebs is going to be OC.net's next busybody!
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #94 on: August 01, 2017, 11:30:02 AM »
The kind of hopeful universalism of Starets Silouan and Fyodor Dostoevsky is right now the only kind of christianity that I don't find nihilistic.
Interesting, can you describe their kind of universalism further? By Dosteosvsky do you mean Elder Zosima from TBK? I dont know anything about St. Silouan.
Yes I mean Zosima. But also Furst Myshkin and Alyosha and Dostoevsky himself talking through these characters. He knew nihilism and how to battle it. And remember, I who am in a Nietzsche period, Nietzsche admired Dostoevsky more than all other writers, philosophers and psychologists, saying that Dostoevsky was the One he had encountered who could really teach him something. Silouan is almost Dostoevsky's vision embodied. I really recommend you read him and Sophrony's book about him. He, Isaac Syrian and St Francis of Assisi are my favorite saints. And Gregory of Nyssa of course... There is no tendency towards sadism here. Here is from Sophrony's book on Silouan:

"I remember a conversation between him and a certain hermit, who declared with evident satisfaction, ‘God will punish all atheists. They will burn in everlasting fire.’

Obviously upset, The Staretz said:

‘Tell me, supposing you went to paradise and there looked down and saw somebody burning in hell-fire – would you feel happy?’

‘It can’t be helped. It would be their own fault,’ said the hermit.

The Staretz answered him with a sorrowful countenance:

‘Love could not bear that,’ he said. ‘We must pray for all’"

And here is another quote by Silouan:

“If the Lord saved you along with the entire multitude of your brethren, and one of the enemies of Christ and the Church remained in the outer darkness, would you not, along with all the others, set yourself to imploring the Lord to save this one unrepentant brother? If you would not beseech Him day and night, then your heart is of iron—but there is no need for iron in paradise.”

For Silouan; embracing the whole cosmos, loving all, and particularly the commandment to love ones enemies was the most important thing of all.

Read this in the link as a foretaste, it is written by Kalistos Ware:
https://orthodoxcityhermit.com/tag/st-silouan-and-our-relationship-as-humans-with-the-animals/

How one would know what is in Heaven? All experience that believers told to the world never been experience with body. Soul, spirit and mind can get fake visions. If somebody tell you that he have been in Heaven with his body and there feel completely different then I think you can believe. But he must confess it is the same way that he is in earth with the body. But who will give him new body for the trip to Heaven if his body is on earth. Even in the Bible for person who have been to Heaven is said that he don't know if it is with or without body.
I don't quite understand how this has to do with what I wrote
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Indocern

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #95 on: August 01, 2017, 11:36:43 AM »
“If the Lord saved you along with the entire multitude of your brethren, and one of the enemies of Christ and the Church remained in the outer darkness, would you not, along with all the others, set yourself to imploring the Lord to save this one unrepentant brother? If you would not beseech Him day and night, then your heart is of iron—but there is no need for iron in paradise.”

Offline beebert

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #96 on: August 02, 2017, 04:01:59 AM »
“If the Lord saved you along with the entire multitude of your brethren, and one of the enemies of Christ and the Church remained in the outer darkness, would you not, along with all the others, set yourself to imploring the Lord to save this one unrepentant brother? If you would not beseech Him day and night, then your heart is of iron—but there is no need for iron in paradise.”
It is symbolic for a hardened heart. And as you see, it is the "christian" who rejoice in People going to hell rather than a Nietzsche who Silouan here is talking about
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Do you really HOPE that all will be saved?
« Reply #97 on: August 14, 2017, 01:15:13 AM »
I often worry I have to face all those non Christians I judged atleast I can judge less and repent and obtain mercy. I believe it is judging others if I think less of non Christians as humans and love them less. If I make a distinction in my heart of who to love more even though we need to be wise I believe it is judging. I feel that I can hurt a person feelings to make them bad. I don't want to influence anyone to be immoral even though he be non Christian and not converting. I feel it is unfair that they were not born Christian though God judgement will be fair as it is unfair that they were not born Christian I feel bad to judge them and make them immoral not that I know that is possible people tell me I do not make them immoral I hope they are right. It is wrong to crown Christians with righteousness who were never judged and judge non Christians who were judged even though you should care for morality anyway.But it is christ command to accept Him I can not change His law which He knows is fair
I wish I could preach for example non Christians do not need to accept Christ unless they know without a doubt He is the truth and Christ teaches salvation only through Him I would say unless they know they will go to hell if they don't but that takes away free will maybe I am not sure because who would not try to be good if he knows he will be judged. So I wish I could preach they don't need to seek the truth if they have not known Christ is the truth and He teaches salvation only for those who believe He is God because I feel it is unfair they feel judged and does not help them be righteous