Author Topic: Views on atonement  (Read 1701 times)

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Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2017, 04:50:17 PM »
So even after all this chatter, no one can answer my original question?

You're kidding right?  You had people answering your questions here.  Furthermore, you made assumptions that were wrong in your original question and people were pointing that out to you.  This wasn't supposed to be entertaining, but informative.

People were sending me links to pics and telling me my assumptions were wrong.  I also got a suggestion to read a book.  Another told me to use google.  No one directly answered the question with a legit.  And I really don't blame anyone because like i said, it's a difficult thing to grasp and explain.
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2017, 04:54:39 PM »
So even after all this chatter, no one can answer my original question?

You're kidding right?  You had people answering your questions here.  Furthermore, you made assumptions that were wrong in your original question and people were pointing that out to you.  This wasn't supposed to be entertaining, but informative.

People were sending me links to pics and telling me my assumptions were wrong.  I also got a suggestion to read a book.  Another told me to use google.  No one directly answered the question with a legit.  And I really don't blame anyone because like i said, it's a difficult thing to grasp and explain.

I'm not sure how much my answer would differ from that of others, but I'd be willing to take a crack at it. Just one thing: you want it short and sweet, or long and filled with quotes from 'authorities'?
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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2017, 04:57:30 PM »
So even after all this chatter, no one can answer my original question?

You're kidding right?  You had people answering your questions here.  Furthermore, you made assumptions that were wrong in your original question and people were pointing that out to you.  This wasn't supposed to be entertaining, but informative.

People were sending me links to pics and telling me my assumptions were wrong.  I also got a suggestion to read a book.  Another told me to use google.  No one directly answered the question with a legit.  And I really don't blame anyone because like i said, it's a difficult thing to grasp and explain.

I think you missed a few posts that sincerely tried to answer your question in full.  It's not really a difficult thing to grasp, but it depends on how one defines the terminology used.  Sometimes juridical language is misunderstood and is inadequate, but not deemphasized in the Orthodox tradition.
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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2017, 05:37:29 PM »
So even after all this chatter, no one can answer my original question?

You're kidding right?  You had people answering your questions here.  Furthermore, you made assumptions that were wrong in your original question and people were pointing that out to you.  This wasn't supposed to be entertaining, but informative.

People were sending me links to pics and telling me my assumptions were wrong.  I also got a suggestion to read a book.  Another told me to use google.  No one directly answered the question with a legit.  And I really don't blame anyone because like i said, it's a difficult thing to grasp and explain.

Since I am the one who sent you a picture, let me explain its relevance.  Your claim was that Orthodoxy emphasised resurrection while Catholicism emphasised crucifixion.  Yet, in your Church, the Eucharistic bread is called a "Lamb" and is pierced with a spear even while being leavened (i.e., "risen" bread).  That kind of terminology and ritual in the central act of worship of the EO Church is a stronger and bolder affirmation of the Passion of Christ (risen from the dead) than any Eucharistic ritual in RC or Protestant forms of Christianity--no one else stabs their bread.  That alone is enough to challenge your claim. 

IIRC, others have urged you to consult various liturgical texts occurring weekly (e.g., Sunday) or annually (e.g., Holy Week).  Or iconography.  Or patristic literature.  Or just about anything else.  It is more than enough to challenge your claim. 

I cannot answer a question based on a faulty foundation, especially when you don't recognise what's wrong.  You need to drink milk before you can handle meat.  Right now you're drinking g8rade. 
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2017, 02:27:53 PM »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #50 on: June 19, 2017, 02:34:54 PM »
So even after all this chatter, no one can answer my original question?

You're kidding right?  You had people answering your questions here.  Furthermore, you made assumptions that were wrong in your original question and people were pointing that out to you.  This wasn't supposed to be entertaining, but informative.

People were sending me links to pics and telling me my assumptions were wrong.  I also got a suggestion to read a book.  Another told me to use google.  No one directly answered the question with a legit.  And I really don't blame anyone because like i said, it's a difficult thing to grasp and explain.

I'm not sure how much my answer would differ from that of others, but I'd be willing to take a crack at it. Just one thing: you want it short and sweet, or long and filled with quotes from 'authorities'?

It doesn't have to be super-deep.  Just something high-level but deep enough to explain the difference of how we view atonement as compared to the Christian west.  We know penal substitution isn't something our church subscribes to.  What's the alternate explanation?  Is it really just that atonement is more than the crucifixion?  Is it that, along Jesus' harrowing of hades?
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Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2017, 02:36:18 PM »
So even after all this chatter, no one can answer my original question?

You're kidding right?  You had people answering your questions here.  Furthermore, you made assumptions that were wrong in your original question and people were pointing that out to you.  This wasn't supposed to be entertaining, but informative.

People were sending me links to pics and telling me my assumptions were wrong.  I also got a suggestion to read a book.  Another told me to use google.  No one directly answered the question with a legit.  And I really don't blame anyone because like i said, it's a difficult thing to grasp and explain.

I think you missed a few posts that sincerely tried to answer your question in full.  It's not really a difficult thing to grasp, but it depends on how one defines the terminology used.  Sometimes juridical language is misunderstood and is inadequate, but not deemphasized in the Orthodox tradition.

Maybe its just difficult for me to understand because western christian culture has influenced me to believe penal substitution as the defacto understanding.  I'm just trying to learn and understand my faith more.
"Open my lips, Lord, and my mouth will declare your praise." - Psalm 51:15

Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2017, 02:41:01 PM »
So even after all this chatter, no one can answer my original question?

You're kidding right?  You had people answering your questions here.  Furthermore, you made assumptions that were wrong in your original question and people were pointing that out to you.  This wasn't supposed to be entertaining, but informative.

People were sending me links to pics and telling me my assumptions were wrong.  I also got a suggestion to read a book.  Another told me to use google.  No one directly answered the question with a legit.  And I really don't blame anyone because like i said, it's a difficult thing to grasp and explain.

Since I am the one who sent you a picture, let me explain its relevance.  Your claim was that Orthodoxy emphasised resurrection while Catholicism emphasised crucifixion.  Yet, in your Church, the Eucharistic bread is called a "Lamb" and is pierced with a spear even while being leavened (i.e., "risen" bread).  That kind of terminology and ritual in the central act of worship of the EO Church is a stronger and bolder affirmation of the Passion of Christ (risen from the dead) than any Eucharistic ritual in RC or Protestant forms of Christianity--no one else stabs their bread.  That alone is enough to challenge your claim. 

IIRC, others have urged you to consult various liturgical texts occurring weekly (e.g., Sunday) or annually (e.g., Holy Week).  Or iconography.  Or patristic literature.  Or just about anything else.  It is more than enough to challenge your claim. 

I cannot answer a question based on a faulty foundation, especially when you don't recognise what's wrong.  You need to drink milk before you can handle meat.  Right now you're drinking g8rade.

I'm actually looking for someone to give me a good explanation.  I'm looking for an answer that perhaps a theologian would probably explain, say, in a bible study.  Btw, you need to put the h8rade down ;)
"Open my lips, Lord, and my mouth will declare your praise." - Psalm 51:15

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2017, 02:55:36 PM »
So even after all this chatter, no one can answer my original question?

You're kidding right?  You had people answering your questions here.  Furthermore, you made assumptions that were wrong in your original question and people were pointing that out to you.  This wasn't supposed to be entertaining, but informative.

People were sending me links to pics and telling me my assumptions were wrong.  I also got a suggestion to read a book.  Another told me to use google.  No one directly answered the question with a legit.  And I really don't blame anyone because like i said, it's a difficult thing to grasp and explain.

I think you missed a few posts that sincerely tried to answer your question in full.  It's not really a difficult thing to grasp, but it depends on how one defines the terminology used.  Sometimes juridical language is misunderstood and is inadequate, but not deemphasized in the Orthodox tradition.

Maybe its just difficult for me to understand because western christian culture has influenced me to believe penal substitution as the defacto understanding.  I'm just trying to learn and understand my faith more.

The God of the Old Testament was a God who freed His people from captivity to other national powers, the New Testament God frees His people from the captivity to sin, the Devil and death. That's the Scriptural understanding.
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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #54 on: June 19, 2017, 03:04:23 PM »
So even after all this chatter, no one can answer my original question?

You're kidding right?  You had people answering your questions here.  Furthermore, you made assumptions that were wrong in your original question and people were pointing that out to you.  This wasn't supposed to be entertaining, but informative.

People were sending me links to pics and telling me my assumptions were wrong.  I also got a suggestion to read a book.  Another told me to use google.  No one directly answered the question with a legit.  And I really don't blame anyone because like i said, it's a difficult thing to grasp and explain.

I think you missed a few posts that sincerely tried to answer your question in full.  It's not really a difficult thing to grasp, but it depends on how one defines the terminology used.  Sometimes juridical language is misunderstood and is inadequate, but not deemphasized in the Orthodox tradition.

Maybe its just difficult for me to understand because western christian culture has influenced me to believe penal substitution as the defacto understanding.  I'm just trying to learn and understand my faith more.

The God of the Old Testament was a God who freed His people from captivity to other national powers, the New Testament God frees His people from the captivity to sin, the Devil and death. That's the Scriptural understanding.

lol
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2017, 03:55:08 PM »
It doesn't have to be super-deep. Just something high-level but deep enough to explain the difference of how we view atonement as compared to the Christian west.

Again you're insisting on your framework, that there's some specific and complete difference between teaching on the Crucifixion between Eastern and Western Christianity. If others don't accept your framework, then they can't answer to your satisfaction and perhaps won't try. Yet you continue to hammer others with it.

Ironically -- you know what the word "atonement" means, don't you? By using the term, you're undermining your own implicit thesis -- asking how "atonement" can be understood not to "atone." Clarity of thought, friend.

Maybe its just difficult for me to understand because western christian culture has influenced me to believe penal substitution as the defacto understanding.  I'm just trying to learn and understand my faith more.

Part of the issue here might be others understanding what you mean by "my Western Christian culture." If you mean the Western Fathers of the Church, then that's very different from if you mean conservative Evangelical Protestant preachers. They may not admit a difference, but you certainly must if you're going to clarify your thought.

Orthodox Christians are not permitted to say that Christ did not die to atone for sinners, because the Holy Prophets, the Evangelists, and the Apostle say that he did. If indeed some Western Fathers dwelt on this, we must approve their piety.

On the other hand, let's take a look at, say, the recent statement from the Southern Baptist conference. Here are those who attempt to replace the Prophets et al. with precisely positive doctrine of their own (and this recent statement is mild compared to many I've read over the years). This they do throughout their religious teaching, however, and it's their hubris that's to be condemned. We cannot approve any of this overweening impiousness.

Now I would like to get back to my response to you to flesh it out a little.

Quote
... As far as what the Cross signifies to us perhaps in contrast to some other groups -- well, we see it as the harrowing of Hell, as examplar of Christian experience, and perhaps some other things ...

My experience with fundamentalist Christian churches (now mostly transmuted into conservative Evangelical churches, but much remains the same) -- and I do have decades of experience attending their services, reading their literature, and talking to their members -- is that "getting saved" and the doctrine behind it tends to the negative and not the positive.

Let me try to explain. If Christ was sacrificed to appease a wrathful God who now cannot see the humanity of those who are covered by his blood to judge them, then after laying one's claim to the promise, one's whole life lies ahead of one and salvation has already come and gone. Satisfaction with that past event implies complacency in the present, as Christ has done his job and eternal life, understood as immunity to judgment, simply awaits. At most, further activity around salvation amounts to argument about who has or has not laid claim to the promise with an effective formula or not. So what I mean by "the negative" is that this salvation merely prevents this or that from happening to one.

Contrast this with if Christ led the way into death as a hero of and example to humankind. Salvation becomes an absorbing challenge that comprises all of mortal life and death. Each day is an opportunity for training and new resolve and hope. The facts of death and judgment are not a one-time gamble of infinite stakes but a daily goal toward which one, with the help of the Spirit and spiritual siblings and parents, can measure one's progress and fitness. That one will in time triumphantly make the crossing is proven by the Son of man who did so first. Further, eternal life far from being a lucky escape becomes the perfection of this life, and its qualities inform one's ideals for present life and one's expectations of how to act in present life. Further, the teaching of the Lord and his Apostles become real guides to accomplishing this real challenge. So what I mean by "the positive" is that this salvation informs and assures all of the human experience.

Pardon my stiff writing style. It's not from any ill will.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2017, 03:57:00 PM »
... the Holy Prophets, the Evangelists, and the Apostle say that he did. ...

And they say much, much more on the subject. Much more, of very different kinds. I wasn't careful to be clear.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy