Author Topic: Views on atonement  (Read 1723 times)

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Offline urg8rb8

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Views on atonement
« on: June 13, 2017, 05:40:17 PM »
I think I understand the idea of penal substitution and I know that Orthodoxy does not accept this concept of why Jesus was on the cross.  I know that Orthodoxy focuses more on Jesus' divinity than his humanity and therefore would build upon the resurrection rather than the crucifixion (which makes sense to me because Jesus dying on the cross isn't about him being punished by the Father.  In fact, Jesus voluntarily and willingly died on the cross).

Roman Catholics seem to emphasis the crucifixion more which explains why they put so much into Good Friday, the different passion stations, and depicting Jesus as helpless, completely defeated, and "droopy" on the cross.

I'm not clear on what the Orthodox view on atonement and the exact meaning behind the Jesus on the cross.  Can someone explain?
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2017, 05:45:23 PM »
I think you have some misconceptions. We don't reject the concept that Christ died for our sins, we just recognize it as one concept, a limited legal one, among many Christ's death comprises. We also certainly don't de-emphasize the humanity of Christ -- if he were not fully human, what hope would we have? As far as what the Cross signifies to us perhaps in contrast to some other groups -- well, we see it as the harrowing of Hell, as examplar of Christian experience, and perhaps some other things I do think the West became very neglectful if and that are vitally important.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2017, 05:46:47 PM »
I know that Orthodoxy focuses more on Jesus' divinity than his humanity...

lol
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Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2017, 05:52:40 PM »
I think you have some misconceptions. We don't reject the concept that Christ died for our sins, we just recognize it as one concept, a limited legal one, among many Christ's death comprises. We also certainly don't de-emphasize the humanity of Christ -- if he were not fully human, what hope would we have? As far as what the Cross signifies to us perhaps in contrast to some other groups -- well, we see it as the harrowing of Hell, as examplar of Christian experience, and perhaps some other things I do think the West became very neglectful if and that are vitally important.

I am not saying that Orthodoxy doesn't think Jesus' humanity isn't important.  But it seems like the divinity is more emphasized. 

So I still don't understand.  If Orthodoxy doesn't agree with penal substitution, then what does it believe is the meaning behind the crucifixion and atonement?
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2017, 05:54:33 PM »
I think you have some misconceptions. We don't reject the concept that Christ died for our sins, we just recognize it as one concept, a limited legal one, among many Christ's death comprises. We also certainly don't de-emphasize the humanity of Christ -- if he were not fully human, what hope would we have? As far as what the Cross signifies to us perhaps in contrast to some other groups -- well, we see it as the harrowing of Hell, as examplar of Christian experience, and perhaps some other things I do think the West became very neglectful if and that are vitally important.

I am not saying that Orthodoxy doesn't think Jesus' humanity isn't important.  But it seems like the divinity is more emphasized. 

So I still don't understand.  If Orthodoxy doesn't agree with penal substitution, then what does it believe is the meaning behind the crucifixion and atonement?

I think you have some misconceptions. We don't reject the concept that Christ died for our sins, we just recognize it as one concept, a limited legal one, among many Christ's death comprises. ... As far as what the Cross signifies to us perhaps in contrast to some other groups -- well, we see it as the harrowing of Hell, as examplar of Christian experience, and perhaps some other things I do think the West became very neglectful if and that are vitally important.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2017, 06:07:33 PM »
I think you have some misconceptions. We don't reject the concept that Christ died for our sins, we just recognize it as one concept, a limited legal one, among many Christ's death comprises. We also certainly don't de-emphasize the humanity of Christ -- if he were not fully human, what hope would we have? As far as what the Cross signifies to us perhaps in contrast to some other groups -- well, we see it as the harrowing of Hell, as examplar of Christian experience, and perhaps some other things I do think the West became very neglectful if and that are vitally important.

I am not saying that Orthodoxy doesn't think Jesus' humanity isn't important.  But it seems like the divinity is more emphasized. 

So I still don't understand.  If Orthodoxy doesn't agree with penal substitution, then what does it believe is the meaning behind the crucifixion and atonement?

I think you have some misconceptions. We don't reject the concept that Christ died for our sins, we just recognize it as one concept, a limited legal one, among many Christ's death comprises. ... As far as what the Cross signifies to us perhaps in contrast to some other groups -- well, we see it as the harrowing of Hell, as examplar of Christian experience, and perhaps some other things I do think the West became very neglectful if and that are vitally important.

I see you just copy/pasted what you previously wrote.  I am looking for more detail and example.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2017, 06:12:34 PM »
I think you have some misconceptions. We don't reject the concept that Christ died for our sins, we just recognize it as one concept, a limited legal one, among many Christ's death comprises. We also certainly don't de-emphasize the humanity of Christ -- if he were not fully human, what hope would we have? As far as what the Cross signifies to us perhaps in contrast to some other groups -- well, we see it as the harrowing of Hell, as examplar of Christian experience, and perhaps some other things I do think the West became very neglectful if and that are vitally important.

I am not saying that Orthodoxy doesn't think Jesus' humanity isn't important.  But it seems like the divinity is more emphasized. 

So I still don't understand.  If Orthodoxy doesn't agree with penal substitution, then what does it believe is the meaning behind the crucifixion and atonement?

I think you have some misconceptions. We don't reject the concept that Christ died for our sins, we just recognize it as one concept, a limited legal one, among many Christ's death comprises. ... As far as what the Cross signifies to us perhaps in contrast to some other groups -- well, we see it as the harrowing of Hell, as examplar of Christian experience, and perhaps some other things I do think the West became very neglectful if and that are vitally important.

I see you just copy/pasted what you previously wrote.  I am looking for more detail and example.

"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2017, 06:29:49 PM »
I think you have some misconceptions. We don't reject the concept that Christ died for our sins, we just recognize it as one concept, a limited legal one, among many Christ's death comprises. We also certainly don't de-emphasize the humanity of Christ -- if he were not fully human, what hope would we have? As far as what the Cross signifies to us perhaps in contrast to some other groups -- well, we see it as the harrowing of Hell, as examplar of Christian experience, and perhaps some other things I do think the West became very neglectful if and that are vitally important.

I am not saying that Orthodoxy doesn't think Jesus' humanity isn't important.  But it seems like the divinity is more emphasized. 

So I still don't understand.  If Orthodoxy doesn't agree with penal substitution, then what does it believe is the meaning behind the crucifixion and atonement?

I think you have some misconceptions. We don't reject the concept that Christ died for our sins, we just recognize it as one concept, a limited legal one, among many Christ's death comprises. ... As far as what the Cross signifies to us perhaps in contrast to some other groups -- well, we see it as the harrowing of Hell, as examplar of Christian experience, and perhaps some other things I do think the West became very neglectful if and that are vitally important.

I see you just copy/pasted what you previously wrote.  I am looking for more detail and example.



Is that Jesus trampling down death by his death?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 06:30:59 PM by urg8rb8 »
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2017, 06:32:32 PM »
So can someone answer the OP's question in detail or not?
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2017, 08:39:37 PM »
I think perhaps limiting the atonement to the cross alone is your first mistake. 
I think understanding the atonement in purely legal terms is your second. 
Your third is assuming that Catholicism and Orthodoxy start with the same framework and go in two different directions, when in fact they use two different frameworks to begin with.
You need to back up and look at how each defines sin, and how they view the Fall.  Then work your way forward.

Someone smarter than me is going to have to confirm/deny/expound that, though.  I'm unequal to the task at my best, and I'm tired today.     8)


Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2017, 11:00:02 AM »
So can someone answer the OP's question in detail or not?

Nope doesn't look like anyone really knows the answer.
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Offline recent convert

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2017, 11:25:06 AM »
From what I understand, our faith embraces the entire incarnation of the Lord, to his death, resurrection, and ascension as all of the elements of life that needed to purified for us to be saved unto eternal life.

It is on the cross where He shed His blood for our sins, why we confess our sins, and give thanks to HIm when we receive the Holy Eucharist.
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Offline Jonathan

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2017, 11:37:58 AM »
There isn’t one answer. There are many.
To start, if you look at the rites of the Great Day of Atonement in Leviticus, they have a lot to say about the economy.
The scape goat had the sins of israel put on it, and it was driven outside (where Christ was crucified). The high priest sacrificed a lamb and a ram. The ram was for himself, or instead of himself, since he couldn’t literally sacrifice himself as  Christ did. The lamb was for the people and the world. He sacrificed it at the altar in the holy place, then took the blood into the holy of holies, where they became most holy, that is, capable of imparting holiness. The high priest vested himself in the same material as the veil, and emerged from the holy of holies with the most holy blood. He sprinkled it all over the holy place, and the courtyards, meaning all over the israel and the world, sanctifying them, and restoring the ruptured bonds of covenant to sustain the cosmos.
Christ took on flesh (the veil, the separation between heaven and earth), and entered the world. He sacrificed Himself at golgotha. He rose, alive, and ascended into Heaven (the high priest taking the blood into the holy of holies), and He is coming again to renew the world. We participate in this coming age in the Liturgy, where the Sacrifice in the past and the coming again are both participated in, and we partake of that life-giving Blood.
There are lots of other aspects to how we are saved by all this. See St. Athanasius on the Incarnation, about the need for the Logos in whose image we were made to come and take on our flesh to restamp us in the image of God, how he had to be crucified to be raised up with His arms open to receive the world to Himself. But, in my opinion, the whole economy of salvation, explained by its shadow the rites of the Day of Atonment, give the overall framework into which all the whys and hows of the different events can be fit.

Offline Alkis

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2017, 11:39:56 AM »
I think I understand the idea of penal substitution and I know that Orthodoxy does not accept this concept of why Jesus was on the cross.  I know that Orthodoxy focuses more on Jesus' divinity than his humanity and therefore would build upon the resurrection rather than the crucifixion (which makes sense to me because Jesus dying on the cross isn't about him being punished by the Father.  In fact, Jesus voluntarily and willingly died on the cross).

Roman Catholics seem to emphasis the crucifixion more which explains why they put so much into Good Friday, the different passion stations, and depicting Jesus as helpless, completely defeated, and "droopy" on the cross.

I'm not clear on what the Orthodox view on atonement and the exact meaning behind the Jesus on the cross.  Can someone explain?

Salvation in Orthodoxy is the restoration of relationship with God, and through that lived out life of faith, the Holy Spirit works through the works of the believer to achieve the fullness of and in Christ and theosis.
We focus on Incarnation, on Passions, on Cross, on Ressurection... All of these are very important. Nothing is more important than the other. That is what I understand till now...
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Offline Jonathan

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2017, 11:50:25 AM »
Others may disagree, but I firmly believe that Penal Substitution Theory, a modern protestant theory, is not one aspect of the Orthodox understanding of atonment.
St. Paul talks about a price being paid on the Cross. And that is one aspect of it we must not deny in rejecting Penal Substitution, but that’s something quite different than the meaning Penal Substitution gives to it.
Penal Substitution makes it into a legal transaction, Christ had to pay the price we owed, death, in order to save us. Pay to whom? To the Father? To Satan? It’s troubling.
If I do something stupid, and someone tells me “you’re going to pay the price for that”, it doesn’t mean I’ve entered into a legal transaction. It means I’ll face the consequences of my stupidity.
We did something stupid. The consequence was death. Christ accepted the consequence, death, for us. Not that He paid a price, so we don’t have to. But he accepted death, and defeated it, in our nature, and rose again in life, so that we might rise with him in life.

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2017, 12:12:42 PM »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2017, 12:17:08 PM »
I think I understand the idea of penal substitution and I know that Orthodoxy does not accept this concept of why Jesus was on the cross.  I know that Orthodoxy focuses more on Jesus' divinity than his humanity and therefore would build upon the resurrection rather than the crucifixion (which makes sense to me because Jesus dying on the cross isn't about him being punished by the Father.  In fact, Jesus voluntarily and willingly died on the cross).

Roman Catholics seem to emphasis the crucifixion more which explains why they put so much into Good Friday, the different passion stations, and depicting Jesus as helpless, completely defeated, and "droopy" on the cross.

I'm not clear on what the Orthodox view on atonement and the exact meaning behind the Jesus on the cross.  Can someone explain?

You can't have Resurrection without crucifixion.  I think the whole debate of "tendencies" is a farce, and it's only done within the context of an unnecessary polemical pinning against Roman Catholics.

Neither can you emphasize the divinity without the humanity for that matter.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 12:17:44 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2017, 12:17:50 PM »
I know that Orthodoxy focuses more on Jesus' divinity than his humanity...

lol

Seriously, where did you come across this nonsense?
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Offline Hinterlander

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2017, 12:26:09 PM »
I know that Orthodoxy focuses more on Jesus' divinity than his humanity...

lol

Seriously, where did you come across this nonsense?

I think it is a perception by those from heterodox backgrounds.  The Orthodox "balance" is hard to perceive by those from backgrounds that are out of balance.  I know that as I inquired into Orthodoxy this was my impression.

Offline WPM

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2017, 01:07:52 PM »
Yes, the fully God/Humanity of Christ.
Learn meditation.

Offline beebert

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2017, 01:10:55 PM »
One should probably understand the Antonement by understanding what sin is first. I do not think that sin is simply a legal, juridical and moral transaction. But rather a saying "no", a rejection of what we are; God's image. Therefore sin should IMO be interpreted as something ontological rather than juridical.
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2017, 01:23:48 PM »
I know that Orthodoxy focuses more on Jesus' divinity than his humanity...

lol

Seriously, where did you come across this nonsense?

It is a big leap going from "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus" to "Christ our God" and "Christ the King and our God."  Yes it's in Scripture, but if you spent your formative years in an environment that deemphaizes Christ's divinity, and...I don't know what...to His humanity, coming into Orthodox worship does at first appear to be "off balance."  Not because it is, but because our compass was messed up, and it takes a while to re-calibrate.  But, yes, I chuckled a bit, too.  Orthodox Christology was a massive epiphany for me.  And I'm using big words for a concept I know I can't really explain well, but still.   ;)

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2017, 02:11:04 PM »
I know that Orthodoxy focuses more on Jesus' divinity than his humanity and therefore would build upon the resurrection rather than the crucifixion

You OBVIOUSLY have never listened to the hymns at Vespers/orthros for a Sunday.  Maybe you should first before you start saying you "know" anything.
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Offline AlioshaKaramazov

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2017, 02:29:29 PM »
I know that Orthodoxy focuses more on Jesus' divinity than his humanity...

lol

Seriously, where did you come across this nonsense?

Probably has to do with the differences between Western realistic art and the more sober Eastern iconography.

Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2017, 03:47:45 PM »
I never said Jesus' humanity wasn't important to the orthodoxy church.  I said it wasn't as emphasized as much as other churches.  Roman Catholics and Protestants seem to emphasize more on Jesus's crucifixion than the Orthodox do.  This is an observable fact that can't be denied.
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Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2017, 03:53:22 PM »
I know that Orthodoxy focuses more on Jesus' divinity than his humanity...

lol

Seriously, where did you come across this nonsense?

It is a big leap going from "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus" to "Christ our God" and "Christ the King and our God."  Yes it's in Scripture, but if you spent your formative years in an environment that deemphaizes Christ's divinity, and...I don't know what...to His humanity, coming into Orthodox worship does at first appear to be "off balance."  Not because it is, but because our compass was messed up, and it takes a while to re-calibrate.  But, yes, I chuckled a bit, too.  Orthodox Christology was a massive epiphany for me.  And I'm using big words for a concept I know I can't really explain well, but still.   ;)

Exactly, everything is relative.  And my relative point, as mentioned in my original post, is that Orthodoxy puts more emphasis on Jesus' divinity than other churches do.  Which makes sense because protestants tend to subscribe to penal substitution (because they are more humanity based)  and Orthodoxy doesn't because they put more weight towards divinity as compared to others.  I have many protestant friends that treat Pascha as an ordinary day because Good Friday was the "Pinnacle".
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Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2017, 03:54:41 PM »
So even after all this chatter, no one can answer my original question?  ;D I love you guys/girls, you bring lots of entertainment to my life :)
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2017, 03:57:03 PM »
To say that Orthodoxy emphasizes Jesus' divinity more than his humanity, because we emphasize the resurrection more than the crucifixion, is a non-sequitur. Both crucifixion and resurrection fully involve the humanity.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Hinterlander

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2017, 03:58:32 PM »
I never said Jesus' humanity wasn't important to the orthodoxy church.  I said it wasn't as emphasized as much as other churches.  Roman Catholics and Protestants seem to emphasize more on Jesus's crucifixion than the Orthodox do.  This is an observable fact that can't be denied.

I believe Orthodoxy simply has a more balanced and holistic view of salvation.  I think it is also worth noting that Orthodox participate in a liturgical life that follows a cycle of fasts and feasts.

During Lent, specifically Holy Week, it would be difficult to imagine anyone thinking that the Orthodox are not emphasizing the crucifixion of Christ.

Also, as a Protestant, while I heard penal substitution from the pulpit on the majority of Sundays (this was the Gospel afterall) I never worse a crucifix, venerated the Cross, or crossed myself.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2017, 04:06:50 PM »
So even after all this chatter, no one can answer my original question?  ;D I love you guys/girls, you bring lots of entertainment to my life :)

Just drop everything and read Saint Athanasius' On the Incarnation. Everything's in there.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2017, 04:09:58 PM »
I never said Jesus' humanity wasn't important to the orthodoxy church.  I said it wasn't as emphasized as much as other churches.  Roman Catholics and Protestants seem to emphasize more on Jesus's crucifixion than the Orthodox do.  This is an observable fact that can't be denied.

I believe Orthodoxy simply has a more balanced and holistic view of salvation.  I think it is also worth noting that Orthodox participate in a liturgical life that follows a cycle of fasts and feasts.

During Lent, specifically Holy Week, it would be difficult to imagine anyone thinking that the Orthodox are not emphasizing the crucifixion of Christ.

Also, as a Protestant, while I heard penal substitution from the pulpit on the majority of Sundays (this was the Gospel afterall) I never worse a crucifix, venerated the Cross, or crossed myself.

Again, I never said Orthodoxy doesn't emphasis the humanity.  I know I felt it when I was fasting the entire time during lent. ;)

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Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2017, 04:11:38 PM »
So even after all this chatter, no one can answer my original question?  ;D I love you guys/girls, you bring lots of entertainment to my life :)

Just drop everything and read Saint Athanasius' On the Incarnation. Everything's in there.

Yes!  I recently bought the book and will start reading it.

« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 04:19:45 PM by urg8rb8 »
"Open my lips, Lord, and my mouth will declare your praise." - Psalm 51:15

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2017, 04:28:44 PM »
So even after all this chatter, no one can answer my original question?  ;D I love you guys/girls, you bring lots of entertainment to my life :)

Just drop everything and read Saint Athanasius' On the Incarnation. Everything's in there.
+1
I would attempt a distillation, but I'm afraid I'd be inaccurate.  Plus it's been a while.

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2017, 04:53:37 PM »
I never said Jesus' humanity wasn't important to the orthodoxy church.  I said it wasn't as emphasized as much as other churches. 

Oh?

Unfortunately, the tendency to divide Christ and focus on one or another part of the division has a long history with tragic consequences among the Western Christian traditions (EO, RC, Protestant).  The EO generally manage to avoid colouring outside the lines, but have not been without problems in this regard.  Even so, the supposed emphasis on resurrection over crucifixion is a false stereotype that is easily debunked. 
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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2017, 01:09:23 AM »
I never said Jesus' humanity wasn't important to the orthodoxy church.  I said it wasn't as emphasized as much as other churches. 

Oh?

What a beautiful photo.
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2017, 01:55:50 AM »
Lemme know how St. Athanasius' book goes. I haven't read it. And I honestly keep quiet about this particular theological point, because I'm not certain what is correct, so naturally I'm curious to learn more.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 01:56:20 AM by Rohzek »
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2017, 07:29:54 AM »
Lemme know how St. Athanasius' book goes. I haven't read it. And I honestly keep quiet about this particular theological point, because I'm not certain what is correct, so naturally I'm curious to learn more.

If you're a Kindle person, I think you can get it for a dollar or two. 

Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2017, 10:39:48 AM »
Lemme know how St. Athanasius' book goes. I haven't read it. And I honestly keep quiet about this particular theological point, because I'm not certain what is correct, so naturally I'm curious to learn more.

I will!  I'm curious about this topic as well hoping to get an answer here.  But it seems like a really complex area of discussion because no one has been able to answer it.  If all the staunch, scholarly Orthodox that come on this board can't answer it, you know the theology around this topic is very complex!
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2017, 10:44:22 AM »
Lemme know how St. Athanasius' book goes. I haven't read it. And I honestly keep quiet about this particular theological point, because I'm not certain what is correct, so naturally I'm curious to learn more.

I will!  I'm curious about this topic as well hoping to get an answer here.  But it seems like a really complex area of discussion because no one has been able to answer it.  If all the staunch, scholarly Orthodox that come on this board can't answer it, you know the theology around this topic is very complex!

It's also highly possible that people just don't feel like rehashing something that can be easily found via Google search and which has been covered on this very forum in numerous other threads, especially if one has to start by dissecting nonsensical assumptions ("Orthodoxy emphasizes the divinity more than the humanity"; "Orthodoxy emphasizes the resurrection over the crucifixion") made by someone who clearly thinks he knows a lot that he, in fact, does not.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 10:44:44 AM by Iconodule »
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Hinterlander

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2017, 10:48:24 AM »
Lemme know how St. Athanasius' book goes. I haven't read it. And I honestly keep quiet about this particular theological point, because I'm not certain what is correct, so naturally I'm curious to learn more.

I will!  I'm curious about this topic as well hoping to get an answer here.  But it seems like a really complex area of discussion because no one has been able to answer it.  If all the staunch, scholarly Orthodox that come on this board can't answer it, you know the theology around this topic is very complex!

TBH your question was so broad the wisest thing to do would be to refer you to the church fathers and other books - which has happened. Here are some more:

Reclaiming the Atonement: An Orthodox Theology of Redemption: Volume 1: The Incarnate Word by Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon

Fr. Pat has a lot of experience in Western Christianity and is uniquely poised to discuss this issue. I read this book and am eager to see him finish the series.

Light from the Christian East: An Introduction to the Orthodox Tradition by James R. Payton, JR.

TBH this is one of my favorite books by a non-Orthodox that I would heartily recommend.  This book does a good job discussing Orthodox theology and tradition with references to Western Christianity - which seems relevant based on your earlier posts.



Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2017, 11:36:12 AM »
Lemme know how St. Athanasius' book goes. I haven't read it. And I honestly keep quiet about this particular theological point, because I'm not certain what is correct, so naturally I'm curious to learn more.

I will!  I'm curious about this topic as well hoping to get an answer here.  But it seems like a really complex area of discussion because no one has been able to answer it.  If all the staunch, scholarly Orthodox that come on this board can't answer it, you know the theology around this topic is very complex!

It's also highly possible that people just don't feel like rehashing something that can be easily found via Google search and which has been covered on this very forum in numerous other threads, especially if one has to start by dissecting nonsensical assumptions ("Orthodoxy emphasizes the divinity more than the humanity"; "Orthodoxy emphasizes the resurrection over the crucifixion") made by someone who clearly thinks he knows a lot that he, in fact, does not.

Doubtful, because all theological discussions on this message board can be googled!  A+ effort to redirect! :)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 11:39:27 AM by urg8rb8 »
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Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2017, 11:39:10 AM »
Lemme know how St. Athanasius' book goes. I haven't read it. And I honestly keep quiet about this particular theological point, because I'm not certain what is correct, so naturally I'm curious to learn more.

I will!  I'm curious about this topic as well hoping to get an answer here.  But it seems like a really complex area of discussion because no one has been able to answer it.  If all the staunch, scholarly Orthodox that come on this board can't answer it, you know the theology around this topic is very complex!

TBH your question was so broad the wisest thing to do would be to refer you to the church fathers and other books - which has happened. Here are some more:

Reclaiming the Atonement: An Orthodox Theology of Redemption: Volume 1: The Incarnate Word by Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon

Fr. Pat has a lot of experience in Western Christianity and is uniquely poised to discuss this issue. I read this book and am eager to see him finish the series.

Light from the Christian East: An Introduction to the Orthodox Tradition by James R. Payton, JR.

TBH this is one of my favorite books by a non-Orthodox that I would heartily recommend.  This book does a good job discussing Orthodox theology and tradition with references to Western Christianity - which seems relevant based on your earlier posts.

I agree with you that it was a wide question but it was done with the aim to get a high-level understanding of the theology with the hopes of maybe drilling into the details.  It's a tough thing to understand and I can see that based on the answers given here.
"Open my lips, Lord, and my mouth will declare your praise." - Psalm 51:15

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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2017, 11:43:04 AM »
Lemme know how St. Athanasius' book goes. I haven't read it. And I honestly keep quiet about this particular theological point, because I'm not certain what is correct, so naturally I'm curious to learn more.

I will!  I'm curious about this topic as well hoping to get an answer here.  But it seems like a really complex area of discussion because no one has been able to answer it.  If all the staunch, scholarly Orthodox that come on this board can't answer it, you know the theology around this topic is very complex!

It's also highly possible that people just don't feel like rehashing something that can be easily found via Google search and which has been covered on this very forum in numerous other threads, especially if one has to start by dissecting nonsensical assumptions ("Orthodoxy emphasizes the divinity more than the humanity"; "Orthodoxy emphasizes the resurrection over the crucifixion") made by someone who clearly thinks he knows a lot that he, in fact, does not.

Doubtful, because all theological discussions on this message board can be googled!  A+ effort to redirect! :)

Not all all doubtful.  In fact, you just proved his point. 
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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2017, 02:46:34 PM »
Lemme know how St. Athanasius' book goes. I haven't read it. And I honestly keep quiet about this particular theological point, because I'm not certain what is correct, so naturally I'm curious to learn more.

I will!  I'm curious about this topic as well hoping to get an answer here.  But it seems like a really complex area of discussion because no one has been able to answer it.  If all the staunch, scholarly Orthodox that come on this board can't answer it, you know the theology around this topic is very complex!

TBH your question was so broad the wisest thing to do would be to refer you to the church fathers and other books - which has happened. Here are some more:

Reclaiming the Atonement: An Orthodox Theology of Redemption: Volume 1: The Incarnate Word by Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon

Fr. Pat has a lot of experience in Western Christianity and is uniquely poised to discuss this issue. I read this book and am eager to see him finish the series.

Light from the Christian East: An Introduction to the Orthodox Tradition by James R. Payton, JR.

TBH this is one of my favorite books by a non-Orthodox that I would heartily recommend.  This book does a good job discussing Orthodox theology and tradition with references to Western Christianity - which seems relevant based on your earlier posts.

I agree with you that it was a wide question but it was done with the aim to get a high-level understanding of the theology with the hopes of maybe drilling into the details.  It's a tough thing to understand and I can see that based on the answers given here.

Yet when somebody did answer you, you immediately just restated your assumption.
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Re: Views on atonement
« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2017, 02:58:33 PM »
So even after all this chatter, no one can answer my original question?

You're kidding right?  You had people answering your questions here.  Furthermore, you made assumptions that were wrong in your original question and people were pointing that out to you.  This wasn't supposed to be entertaining, but informative.
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