Author Topic: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.  (Read 3420 times)

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Offline scamandrius

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2017, 01:51:56 AM »
^Which is creepy.



So, do we call this person "they" to their face since in polite conversation you don't refer to another person by the third person.   Or can we still use "you?"  And if I were to use a masculine or feminine pronoun when talking about "them" to someone else how would "they" know?
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2017, 01:53:26 AM »
Fixed it for you. THe person in question demands to be referred to by plural pronouns. 

Not sure whether to scrath my head or burst out laughing. What in the World. I'm so happy that in Finnish we only have gender-neutral third person pronouns.

Is that for both the singular and plural?
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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2017, 02:25:22 AM »
^Which is creepy.



So, do we call this person "they" to their face since in polite conversation you don't refer to another person by the third person.   Or can we still use "you?"  And if I were to use a masculine or feminine pronoun when talking about "them" to someone else how would "they" know?

Your guess is as good as anyone's.  Might need to speak with Legion.
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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2017, 07:32:46 AM »
Thank the Lord for getting me out of there in time.   I loved being a Methodist, back when that was a good thing, but now, the thought of returning to the UMC in its present form sickens me. 

A shame, because John Wesley was the only Protestant who really taught theosis, and the hymns of his brother are a delight.   I have happy memories of growing up in that church, but the church I grew up in doesn't really exist; the conservative parishes scrapped the organ and the old hymnal to go the rock music route, and the liberal parishes kept the liturgy but introduced this kind of evil.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2017, 07:36:32 AM »
Thank the Lord for getting me out of there in time.   I loved being a Methodist, back when that was a good thing, but now, the thought of returning to the UMC in its present form sickens me. 

A shame, because John Wesley was the only Protestant who really taught theosis, and the hymns of his brother are a delight.   I have happy memories of growing up in that church, but the church I grew up in doesn't really exist; the conservative parishes scrapped the organ and the old hymnal to go the rock music route, and the liberal parishes kept the liturgy but introduced this kind of evil.

Not really.  Though not found in Luther, you will find theosis is a theme in the writings of the 2nd generation of Lutheran theologians, most particularly Martin  Chemnitz and the Tuebingen school. 
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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #50 on: June 11, 2017, 11:35:49 AM »
Fixed it for you. THe person in question demands to be referred to by plural pronouns. 

Not sure whether to scrath my head or burst out laughing. What in the World. I'm so happy that in Finnish we only have gender-neutral third person pronouns which prevents this sense of nonsense.
I believe English speakers might use "it".
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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #51 on: June 11, 2017, 02:33:34 PM »
Fixed it for you. THe person in question demands to be referred to by plural pronouns. 

Not sure whether to scrath my head or burst out laughing. What in the World. I'm so happy that in Finnish we only have gender-neutral third person pronouns which prevents this sense of nonsense.
I believe English speakers might use "it".

"It" is the obvious choice in our language. However, since the real purpose of American progressivism is to confuse and subjugate average people, that practical choice is not allowed.
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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #52 on: June 11, 2017, 03:45:56 PM »
Thank the Lord for getting me out of there in time.   I loved being a Methodist, back when that was a good thing, but now, the thought of returning to the UMC in its present form sickens me. 

A shame, because John Wesley was the only Protestant who really taught theosis, and the hymns of his brother are a delight.   I have happy memories of growing up in that church, but the church I grew up in doesn't really exist; the conservative parishes scrapped the organ and the old hymnal to go the rock music route, and the liberal parishes kept the liturgy but introduced this kind of evil.

Not really.  Though not found in Luther, you will find theosis is a theme in the writings of the 2nd generation of Lutheran theologians, most particularly Martin  Chemnitz and the Tuebingen school.

Interesting, and that's in the period referred to by historians as "the era of Lutheran Orthodoxy", right?  The period of roughly 1600-1750, before the Enlightenment, Rationalism, et cetera.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #53 on: June 12, 2017, 05:18:13 PM »
Fixed it for you. THe person in question demands to be referred to by plural pronouns. 

Not sure whether to scrath my head or burst out laughing. What in the World. I'm so happy that in Finnish we only have gender-neutral third person pronouns.

Is that for both the singular and plural?

Both singular ("hän") and plular ("he") are gender-neutral if that's what you meant.
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Leviticus 19:34

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #54 on: June 12, 2017, 06:32:03 PM »
Fixed it for you. THe person in question demands to be referred to by plural pronouns. 

Not sure whether to scrath my head or burst out laughing. What in the World. I'm so happy that in Finnish we only have gender-neutral third person pronouns.

Is that for both the singular and plural?

Both singular ("hän") and plular ("he") are gender-neutral if that's what you meant.

How is that any different from "it" and "they"?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #55 on: June 12, 2017, 06:46:32 PM »
^Which is creepy.


what about self misgendering?

"Stop violence." Looks more like he is looking for it, and now complaining that he got it.

(as an aside, my son asked me yesterday if I ever heard of a "punchable face." "No," I replied "but I am familiar with the concept.")
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 06:48:35 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline Isaiah53IsMessiah

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #56 on: June 12, 2017, 07:45:53 PM »
Thank the Lord for getting me out of there in time.   I loved being a Methodist, back when that was a good thing, but now, the thought of returning to the UMC in its present form sickens me. 

A shame, because John Wesley was the only Protestant who really taught theosis, and the hymns of his brother are a delight.   I have happy memories of growing up in that church, but the church I grew up in doesn't really exist; the conservative parishes scrapped the organ and the old hymnal to go the rock music route, and the liberal parishes kept the liturgy but introduced this kind of evil.

Not really.  Though not found in Luther, you will find theosis is a theme in the writings of the 2nd generation of Lutheran theologians, most particularly Martin  Chemnitz and the Tuebingen school.

Wesleyan theology departed from traditional Lutheran and Reformed Sola Fide in favor of synergism.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 07:46:10 PM by Isaiah53IsMessiah »
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #57 on: June 12, 2017, 11:41:53 PM »
Thank the Lord for getting me out of there in time.   I loved being a Methodist, back when that was a good thing, but now, the thought of returning to the UMC in its present form sickens me. 

A shame, because John Wesley was the only Protestant who really taught theosis, and the hymns of his brother are a delight.   I have happy memories of growing up in that church, but the church I grew up in doesn't really exist; the conservative parishes scrapped the organ and the old hymnal to go the rock music route, and the liberal parishes kept the liturgy but introduced this kind of evil.

Not really.  Though not found in Luther, you will find theosis is a theme in the writings of the 2nd generation of Lutheran theologians, most particularly Martin  Chemnitz and the Tuebingen school.

Wesleyan theology departed from traditional Lutheran and Reformed Sola Fide in favor of synergism.

You obviously haven't read the 2nd generation of Lutheran theologians whom I have mentioned.
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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #58 on: June 13, 2017, 01:00:27 AM »
Fixed it for you. THe person in question demands to be referred to by plural pronouns. 

Not sure whether to scrath my head or burst out laughing. What in the World. I'm so happy that in Finnish we only have gender-neutral third person pronouns.

Is that for both the singular and plural?

Both singular ("hän") and plular ("he") are gender-neutral if that's what you meant.

How is that any different from "it" and "they"?

It ("se") is used for things and animals. " Hän" is reserved for people. At least in theory, colloquial language is a bit less orderly.
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Leviticus 19:34

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2017, 05:43:53 AM »
The timing of these initiatives seems so convenient to stay in touch with the latest fads. I tend to think the next fad will be trans species:  https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/what-does-it-mean-to-be-trans-species. Which will probably also be given high priority.

I wouldn't be surprise if in a not so far future, we'll see the Furry Episcopal Church of America or the United Otherkins Methodist Church...
I hope you're open-minded.

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2017, 06:46:32 AM »
I assume they've been ordaining both men and women before this? So considering this what's particularly horrific in ordaining a transgender?

At best it's just a new example of their making political trends equal with God in their estimation. But can you really not tell a difference between concepts of man and woman and of erasure of man-woman?

I do but that's beside the point. They ordained a person, not a teaching. If they think that the gender of person being ordained is not an issue I can't think of reason why they wouldn't ordain transgendered folks. I obviously disagree with them about female priesthood but I think they are only acting logically. Thus I don't understand the fuss about this.

So your assumption is they are operating under a real shortage of qualified candidates? I personally think that's naive.

No. I think they see him/her as a qualified candidate and think that his/her gender identity or lack of it is not anyhow relevant. Which is quite logical if one accepts female priesthood.

If their theology of the human person is that sexuality/gender is not essential to humanity, then why specifically refer to "female priesthood" or "transgender diaconate"?

Good questions.  Im just glad I escaped from the UMC before it reached this low.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 06:47:03 AM by Alpha60 »
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This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #61 on: August 11, 2017, 08:30:32 PM »
There's a reason you never hear about the Amish appointing a transgender deacon:

Transgender TV characters have the power to shape audience attitudes

"The researchers surveyed 488 regular viewers of the USA Network series Royal Pains, of whom 391 saw a June 2015 episode featuring a portrayal of a transgender teen, played by transgender activist Nicole Maines. Those who saw this episode had more positive attitudes toward both transgender people and related policies, such as students using bathrooms aligned with their gender identity. The fictional Royal Pains storyline was more influential than news events; exposure to transgender issues in the news and Caitlyn Jenner's transition (which was unfolding at the time of the research) had no effect on attitudes."
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #62 on: August 21, 2017, 05:30:54 PM »
Assuming they don't split away, the Africans are going to dominate their conferences in the near future and they tend not to be fans of this sort of thing. But why are we griping about the UMC anyway?


Because it is sad to see people absolutely nullify their fundamental, Christian values just to conform to the emotions of the day.
Is it wrong to say that it is a tragedy that such a proposition has occurred and has been legitimatized?

It is also a warning sign for the Orthodox Church, when such carnal, prideful, and egotistical individuals discover the Orthodox Church and try to rip it apart from within like they are currently doing with most Protestant denominations and Roman Catholicism - and if they are successful with these latter two groups of Christianity, they will all focus their efforts to destroying this Ark of Salvation.

They will not prevail against the Orthodox Church, but it is a sign that we all are gonna be persecuted to a social extreme and have to follow the steps of Saint Mark of Ephesus soon enough.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 05:35:42 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #63 on: August 21, 2017, 05:38:50 PM »
Next they need to appoint a dog deacon. Equality for all.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #64 on: August 22, 2017, 10:07:48 AM »
Assuming they don't split away, the Africans are going to dominate their conferences in the near future and they tend not to be fans of this sort of thing. But why are we griping about the UMC anyway?


Because it is sad to see people absolutely nullify their fundamental, Christian values just to conform to the emotions of the day.
Is it wrong to say that it is a tragedy that such a proposition has occurred and has been legitimatized?

It is also a warning sign for the Orthodox Church, when such carnal, prideful, and egotistical individuals discover the Orthodox Church and try to rip it apart from within like they are currently doing with most Protestant denominations and Roman Catholicism - and if they are successful with these latter two groups of Christianity, they will all focus their efforts to destroying this Ark of Salvation.

They will not prevail against the Orthodox Church, but it is a sign that we all are gonna be persecuted to a social extreme and have to follow the steps of Saint Mark of Ephesus soon enough.


It begins:
http://religiondispatches.org/white-supremacy-and-orthodox-christianity-a-dangerous-connection-rears-its-head-in-charlottesville/

So Orthodoxy has this conspiratorial apparatus to encourage white supremacy, and it isn't caused by the almost-fascist suppression tactics of the radical left and Antifa. And obviously, people posting racist things equivocates to those people being representative of the organization as a whole.
Following this logic, the Democratic Party must be communist, correct?
And if all correlation equivocates to causation, then the rooster MUST cause the sun to rise, as the rooster crows every time the sun is about to rise.

Their arguments, following their logic, must apply to all ascetic religions if valid, so the only reasonable approach is to dismantle all historical and cultural value systems until we are all hedonists.

Give me a break.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 10:12:54 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #65 on: August 22, 2017, 10:10:29 AM »
What begins?
Quote
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #66 on: August 22, 2017, 10:13:43 AM »
What begins?

Contemporary liberals and modernists trying to attack the Orthodox Church using the same methodology they have used with the Roman church and Protestant churches - potentially on a large scale.

To some degree, mainstream society, even if its limited, is going to try to ostracize and oppress the Orthodox Church more than they do now.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 10:15:10 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #67 on: August 22, 2017, 10:16:31 AM »
What begins?

Contemporary liberals and modernists trying to attack the Orthodox Church using the same methodology they have used with the Roman church and Protestant churches - potentially on a large scale.

And that article is the beginning of this, how?

If anything, the article paints too pretty a picture. It doesn't mention, for instance, that nostalgia for the Iron Guard is common in the Romanian church.

By what twisted reasoning one would blame antifa for this is hard to imagine.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #68 on: August 22, 2017, 10:23:20 AM »
What begins?

Contemporary liberals and modernists trying to attack the Orthodox Church using the same methodology they have used with the Roman church and Protestant churches - potentially on a large scale.

And that article is the beginning of this, how?

If anything, the article paints too pretty a picture. It doesn't mention, for instance, that nostalgia for the Iron Guard is common in the Romanian church.

By what twisted reasoning one would blame antifa for this is hard to imagine.

It isn't, I didn't literally mean that this one article is the spark that will cause a hedonistic and revolutionary movement to completely destroy the Church - but I just found it coincidental that this article becomes somewhat prominent the day after I posted the previous comment.

And the "twisted reasoning" I used was the same methodology in their tactics that Antifa and the people of this article use in order to suppress people they disagree with - by the usage of Ad-Hominem attacks and fallacious strawman argumentation.
This article uses the latter, accusing the entire Orthodox Church of supporting Nationalism and White Supremacy, and then pointing to contradictory examples as evidence and somehow suggesting historical nostalgia to Monarchial Orthodox countries is equivalent to White Supremacy, while creating some kind of fantasy realm where the two socio-political ideologies are causes of one another.

They completely ignore the fact that such polemical literature is what causes radicalism, not the Orthodox Church intrinsically.

If they argue that Patriotism is equivalent to Eugenics-based nationalism, then they should not hold double standards and condemn African, Middle-Eastern, and Asian historical pride.

For instance, they would need to, in their own terms, anathematize any celebration of Japanese history, because doing so would encourage another Imperial Japan by their own reasoning.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 10:25:29 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #69 on: August 22, 2017, 10:26:53 AM »
And the "twisted reasoning" I used was the same methodology in their tactics that Antifa and the people of this article use in order to suppress people they disagree with - by the usage of Ad-Hominem attacks and fallacious strawman argumentation.
This article uses the latter, accusing the entire Orthodox Church of supporting Nationalism and White Supremacy, and then pointing to contradictory examples as evidence and somehow suggesting historical nostalgia to Monarchial Orthodox countries is equivalent to White Supremacy, while creating some kind of fantasy realm where the two socio-political ideologies are causes of one another.

It's funny you complain about strawman argumentation and then immediately follow with a strawman yourself.

Quote
They completely ignore the fact that such polemical literature is what causes radicalism, not the Orthodox Church intrinsically.

You do realize that white supremacists are human beings, right? And not atmospheric conditions or chemical transmutations caused by this or that catalyst? When someone like Dylann Roof decides to commit mass murder, that's his choice.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 10:29:14 AM by Iconodule »
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #70 on: August 22, 2017, 10:35:04 AM »
And the "twisted reasoning" I used was the same methodology in their tactics that Antifa and the people of this article use in order to suppress people they disagree with - by the usage of Ad-Hominem attacks and fallacious strawman argumentation.
This article uses the latter, accusing the entire Orthodox Church of supporting Nationalism and White Supremacy, and then pointing to contradictory examples as evidence and somehow suggesting historical nostalgia to Monarchial Orthodox countries is equivalent to White Supremacy, while creating some kind of fantasy realm where the two socio-political ideologies are causes of one another.

It's funny you complain about strawman argumentation and then immediately follow with a strawman yourself.

Quote
They completely ignore the fact that such polemical literature is what causes radicalism, not the Orthodox Church intrinsically.

You do realize that white supremacists are human beings, right? And not atmospheric conditions or chemical transmutations caused by this or that catalyst?

It's funny how you accuse me of using strawman argumentation to attack strawman argumentation, when you yourself are using strawman argumentation.

Did I say polemical literature is the only cause of "white supremacy?" No, I didn't - I said "They completely ignore the fact that such polemical literature is what causes radicalism, not the Orthodox Church intrinsically."

I think its a fact that when people feel oppressed or can't adequately display their own thoughts and ideas, it radicalizes people into making them find a "better solution" to the problem - and I think the growing amount of white nationalism can be seen as a consequence of the past several years of the previous described methodologies of using name calling such as "misogynist, homophobe, racist, bigot, "bag of deplorables," as well as believing that those people they labeled are part of some great conspiracy to regress society back to slavery, attacking that idea which those people do not clearly hold.

Also, how is my argument strawman argumentation again?

Quotes from the article in question:

"This growing attachment to Eastern Orthodox Christianity among a segment of white nationalists has serious implications for more mainstream currents in contemporary Orthodox life."

"Johnson’s books and podcast, The Orthodox Nationalist, push the same brand of nationalism that adherents refer to as “traditionalism.” This ideology, which attempts to distance itself from more recognizable white supremacy, blends nationalism  with an anti-globalist agrarianism that in many ways does not sound dissimilar to the rhetoric coming out of the White House.

Yet among the traditionalists, one finds a whole host of other, far more rare, beliefs—many of which find more than a passing precedent in more conservative, but still decidedly mainstream, strains of Eastern Christian thought. There are, for example, monarchists, calling for a restoration of Imperial Russia or even a new Byzantine Empire.

While this may seem extreme, a strain of pro-monarchism runs through a great deal of even modern Orthodox thought, particularly within the Russian tradition where Tsar Nicholas II and his family are venerated as “passion-bearers.”"


"The best answer I can posit: anti-Semitism and homophobia. These are the shared beliefs that allow extremists to lurk in plain sight, co-opting whole parishes to their mission. This is, of course, not to say that all Orthodox Christians are anti-Semitic and/or homophobic. The vast majority are not. But the simple fact is that the institutional Church has been casual in challenging the most egregious public statements made by some of its more visible adherents, clergy and laity alike.

When high-profile, decidedly mainstream Orthodox converts like Rod Dreher promote the idea that modern society has become so corrupt that Christians should separate themselves from society completely and cites gay marriage as his “case-in-point,” what message does it send to other, less-refined discontents? What about when a respected theologians questions about the anti-Semitic nature of the Holy Week prayers becomes an internet firestorm of abuse?"


"There is no evidence that the institutional Orthodox churches in America, its clergy, and the vast majority of its laity has anything but disdain for these extremists co-opting Eastern Christianity."
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #71 on: August 22, 2017, 10:54:21 AM »
And the "twisted reasoning" I used was the same methodology in their tactics that Antifa and the people of this article use in order to suppress people they disagree with - by the usage of Ad-Hominem attacks and fallacious strawman argumentation.
This article uses the latter, accusing the entire Orthodox Church of supporting Nationalism and White Supremacy, and then pointing to contradictory examples as evidence and somehow suggesting historical nostalgia to Monarchial Orthodox countries is equivalent to White Supremacy, while creating some kind of fantasy realm where the two socio-political ideologies are causes of one another.

It's funny you complain about strawman argumentation and then immediately follow with a strawman yourself.

Quote
They completely ignore the fact that such polemical literature is what causes radicalism, not the Orthodox Church intrinsically.

You do realize that white supremacists are human beings, right? And not atmospheric conditions or chemical transmutations caused by this or that catalyst?

It's funny how you accuse me of using strawman argumentation to attack strawman argumentation, when you yourself are using strawman argumentation.

Did I say polemical literature is the only cause of "white supremacy?" No, I didn't - I said "They completely ignore the fact that such polemical literature is what causes radicalism, not the Orthodox Church intrinsically."

Not a strawman at all. You earlier accused antifa and the radical left of causing the rise of white nationalism. It's ridiculous.

Quote
I think its a fact that when people feel oppressed or can't adequately display their own thoughts and ideas, it radicalizes people into making them find a "better solution" to the problem - and I think the growing amount of white nationalism can be seen as a consequence of the past several years of the previous described methodologies of using name calling such as "misogynist, homophobe, racist, bigot, "bag of deplorables," as well as believing that those people they labeled are part of some great conspiracy to regress society back to slavery, attacking that idea which those people do not clearly hold.

So, when they feel their coded, subliminal racism is  being called out too much (the poor snowflakes) they feel the need to become explicitly and publicly racist instead. Yeah, and somehow that's the left's fault. Okay.

Quote
Also, how is my argument strawman argumentation again?

Okay, let's go through it step by step:

Quote
Quotes from the article in question:

"This growing attachment to Eastern Orthodox Christianity among a segment of white nationalists has serious implications for more mainstream currents in contemporary Orthodox life."

"Johnson’s books and podcast, The Orthodox Nationalist, push the same brand of nationalism that adherents refer to as “traditionalism.” This ideology, which attempts to distance itself from more recognizable white supremacy, blends nationalism  with an anti-globalist agrarianism that in many ways does not sound dissimilar to the rhetoric coming out of the White House.

Summary: A segment of white nationalists have a growing attachment to Orthodoxy. Not news and readily proven by the existence of the "Traditionalist Youth Network" and other groups. This has nothing to do with "the entire Orthodox Church ... supporting Nationalism and White Supremacy" (your words).

Quote
Yet among the traditionalists, one finds a whole host of other, far more rare, beliefs—many of which find more than a passing precedent in more conservative, but still decidedly mainstream, strains of Eastern Christian thought. There are, for example, monarchists, calling for a restoration of Imperial Russia or even a new Byzantine Empire.

While this may seem extreme, a strain of pro-monarchism runs through a great deal of even modern Orthodox thought, particularly within the Russian tradition where Tsar Nicholas II and his family are venerated as “passion-bearers.”"

Summary: Monarchism and neo-Tsarism are strains found in "a great deal of" (not all) modern Orthodox thought. Some white nationalists find this appealing. Again, hard to argue with. Again, it says nothing approaching "the entire Orthodox Church ... supporting Nationalism and White Supremacy."

Quote
"The best answer I can posit: anti-Semitism and homophobia. These are the shared beliefs that allow extremists to lurk in plain sight, co-opting whole parishes to their mission. This is, of course, not to say that all Orthodox Christians are anti-Semitic and/or homophobic. The vast majority are not. But the simple fact is that the institutional Church has been casual in challenging the most egregious public statements made by some of its more visible adherents, clergy and laity alike.

Summary: Anti-Semitism and homophobia are found and accepted in parts of the Orthodox Church and this allows white nationalists blend in. The institutional church has been "casual in challenging" (which is a far cry from supporting) these developments.

Again, nothing like "the entire Orthodox Church...supporting Nationalism and White Supremacy." In fact, it suggests that the majority do not support these things.

Quote
When high-profile, decidedly mainstream Orthodox converts like Rod Dreher promote the idea that modern society has become so corrupt that Christians should separate themselves from society completely and cites gay marriage as his “case-in-point,” what message does it send to other, less-refined discontents? What about when a respected theologians questions about the anti-Semitic nature of the Holy Week prayers becomes an internet firestorm of abuse?"

Summary: Escapist/ defeatist narratives like the Ben Op might encourage other "other, less refined discontents" (ie white nationalists) in framing their white separatism as a pious walling off from a diseased society. I see nothing here about "the entire Orthodox Church."

Quote
"There is no evidence that the institutional Orthodox churches in America, its clergy, and the vast majority of its laity has anything but disdain for these extremists co-opting Eastern Christianity."

A sentence that directly contradicts your assertion that this article accuses  "the entire Orthodox Church of supporting Nationalism and White Supremacy".
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Alpha60

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #72 on: August 22, 2017, 11:01:26 AM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/06/07/the-united-methodist-church-just-appointed-a-transgender-deacon/?utm_term=.cc616a183fc3

Quote
The bishop spoke the traditional words as she placed her hands on the new deacon named M with just a slight difference from the way those words have always been spoken before.

“Pour out your Holy Spirit upon M,” the bishop said. “Send them now to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ, to announce the reign of God and to equip the church for ministry.”

Not “send him now” or “send her now.” “Send them now.”

That’s what M Barclay has been working for 12 years to finally hear.

Barclay, a transgender person who identifies as neither male nor female and thus uses the pronoun “they,” was commissioned on Sunday as the first non-binary member of the clergy in the United Methodist Church.

"Woe to you that call evil good, and good evil: that put darkness for light, and light for darkness: that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter" - Isaiah 5:20

Kyrie eleison.  I'm glad I got out of there when I did.

There are two kinds of UMC parishes: those driven by a praise and worship style of contemporary service, which are basically evangelical, and tend to be moderate to conservative, and those which still use the organs, the traditional chorale hymns, and so on, which I grew up with, a beautiful, simple liturgy, not as beautiful as Orthodoxy, however, which alas also tend to be ultra liberal.
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This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #73 on: August 22, 2017, 11:38:11 AM »
In this thread: Iconodule publicly struggles with the concepts of context and emphasis.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #74 on: August 22, 2017, 11:44:01 AM »
So, when they feel their coded, subliminal racism is  being called out too much (the poor snowflakes) they feel the need to become explicitly and publicly racist instead. Yeah, and somehow that's the left's fault. Okay.

Thank you by demonstrating my point about using ad-hominem argumentation. Even in rebutting my claims, you couldn't even hold the urge to NOT demonstrate it as an example!

Can you explain how we are using coded, subliminal racism? Is critiquing the BLM movement subliminal, coded racism? Is not voting for Hillary Clinton subliminal, coded racism?

If there is this implication which you are suggesting that a network of hidden racism and suppression is occurring on the right side of the political spectrum, could you be more clear and not suggest exactly what I was criticizing you for - that the right side of the political spectrum is all part of this "conspiracy" to regress society back to slavery? Which, as an idea, we do not hold and thus falls under the umbrella of strawman argumentation?

Summary: Monarchism and neo-Tsarism are strains found in "a great deal of" (not all) modern Orthodox thought. Some white nationalists find this appealing. Again, hard to argue with. Again, it says nothing approaching "the entire Orthodox Church ... supporting Nationalism and White Supremacy."

Let's go through the ENTIRE quote.
"Johnson’s books and podcast, The Orthodox Nationalist, push the same brand of nationalism that adherents refer to as “traditionalism.” This ideology, which attempts to distance itself from more recognizable white supremacy, blends nationalism with an anti-globalist agrarianism that in many ways does not sound dissimilar to the rhetoric coming out of the White House."

The author states that certain groups of people are using an ideology which adheres to nationalism and "anti-globalist agrarianism" (which I assume is a reference to European Monarchialism), and suggests that these ideologies are connected by "not sounding dissimilar" to the rhetoric of the White House.

"Yet among the traditionalists, one finds a whole host of other, far more rare, beliefs—many of which find more than a passing precedent in more conservative, but still decidedly mainstream, strains of Eastern Christian thought. There are, for example, monarchists, calling for a restoration of Imperial Russia or even a new Byzantine Empire."

While this may seem extreme, a strain of pro-monarchism runs through a great deal of even modern Orthodox thought, particularly within the Russian tradition where Tsar Nicholas II and his family are venerated as “passion-bearers.”

This statement, especially with the bold portions, states deductively that the "rare beliefs of monarchy" have a causation by means of mainstream strains of Orthodox thought. That the veneration of kings who are saints somehow suggests that monarchy is the best form of government, and the history of the Orthodox Church being associated with monarchies thus means the Orthodox Church holds dogmatically that monarchy is the only licit form of government for the Church to flourish in.

Summary: Anti-Semitism and homophobia are found and accepted in parts of the Orthodox Church and this allows white nationalists blend in. The institutional church has been "casual in challenging" (which is a far cry from supporting) these developments.

Anti-Semitism and homphobia and are hard to use for me as a valid criticism, because like racism or sexism, it is a term that can be used to dismiss people's ideologies on the grounds that they fall under the umbrella of these labels.

What does it mean to be Anti-Semitic?
To disagree with theological Judaism?
To believe that the Pharisees are culprits in killing Jesus Christ?
To disagree with theological Zionism?
To disagree with political Zionism?
To believe that there is some kind of Jewish conspiracy of evil theological Jews who are bringing about the New World Order?
To believe that there is some kind of Jewish conspiracy of evil ethnic Jews who are bringing about the New World Order?
To believe that ethnic Jews are the cause of all problems?
To believe that ethnic Jews need to be killed and to worship Hitler?

What about Homophobia? What does this mean?

To say that having same-sex intercourse is morally wrong?
To say that having same-sex relationships is morally wrong?
To say that same-sex marriage is morally wrong?
To go up to people and say "Dude, I'm a sinner, but I have to say that your moral lifestyle is sinful."?
To go up to people and say "You are going to hell for being gay!!!"?
To ostracize gay people?
To believe in homosexual segregation?
To believe in homosexual genocide?


There is a spectrum of interpretations as listed here, and you liberals take all of these interpretations as equivalent and as evil as the most extreme - or, the least interpretation always causes the most extreme interpretation.

Simply because the Orthodox Church condemns homosexual lifestyles and recognizes the sins of the Pharisees does not mean that the Orthodox Church is a radical organization that wants to oppress people who are Jewish or homosexual.

And the Orthodox Church doesn't "casually not debate" against homosexuality, it prohibits it, as it has for 2000 years.
The article is suggesting that these articles of faith are equivalent to extremist views, as you are suggesting.

"When high-profile, decidedly mainstream Orthodox converts like Rod Dreher promote the idea that modern society has become so corrupt that Christians should separate themselves from society completely and cites gay marriage as his “case-in-point,” what message does it send to other, less-refined discontents? What about when a respected theologians questions about the anti-Semitic nature of the Holy Week prayers becomes an internet firestorm of abuse?"

This quote even suggests that Christian asceticism and separation from the world, as Saint Paul calls us to do, is somehow homophobic.

And your response to the point in question:
Quote
Summary: Escapist/ defeatist narratives like the Ben Op might encourage other "other, less refined discontents" (ie white nationalists) in framing their white separatism as a pious walling off from a diseased society. I see nothing here about "the entire Orthodox Church."

The author in question was talking about "homophobia" so to speak, but okay - but identifying the individual in the article as "moderate" doesn't do harm.

Quote
"There is no evidence that the institutional Orthodox churches in America, its clergy, and the vast majority of its laity has anything but disdain for these extremists co-opting Eastern Christianity."

Quote
A sentence that directly contradicts your assertion that this article accuses  "the entire Orthodox Church of supporting Nationalism and White Supremacy".



However, despite this error which I will admit, I still standby my viewpoints.

The problem with the article is that it sees mainstream Orthodox thought as the causation of radicalism, by identifying moderate ideologies with radicalism and connecting the two using fallacious logic.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 11:45:04 AM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2017, 12:06:24 PM »
So, when they feel their coded, subliminal racism is  being called out too much (the poor snowflakes) they feel the need to become explicitly and publicly racist instead. Yeah, and somehow that's the left's fault. Okay.

Thank you by demonstrating my point about using ad-hominem argumentation. Even in rebutting my claims, you couldn't even hold the urge to NOT demonstrate it as an example!

Can you explain how we are using coded, subliminal racism? Is critiquing the BLM movement subliminal, coded racism? Is not voting for Hillary Clinton subliminal, coded racism?

If there is this implication which you are suggesting that a network of hidden racism and suppression is occurring on the right side of the political spectrum, could you be more clear and not suggest exactly what I was criticizing you for - that the right side of the political spectrum is all part of this "conspiracy" to regress society back to slavery? Which, as an idea, we do not hold and thus falls under the umbrella of strawman argumentation?

Summary: Monarchism and neo-Tsarism are strains found in "a great deal of" (not all) modern Orthodox thought. Some white nationalists find this appealing. Again, hard to argue with. Again, it says nothing approaching "the entire Orthodox Church ... supporting Nationalism and White Supremacy."

Let's go through the ENTIRE quote.
"Johnson’s books and podcast, The Orthodox Nationalist, push the same brand of nationalism that adherents refer to as “traditionalism.” This ideology, which attempts to distance itself from more recognizable white supremacy, blends nationalism with an anti-globalist agrarianism that in many ways does not sound dissimilar to the rhetoric coming out of the White House."

The author states that certain groups of people are using an ideology which adheres to nationalism and "anti-globalist agrarianism" (which I assume is a reference to European Monarchialism), and suggests that these ideologies are connected by "not sounding dissimilar" to the rhetoric of the White House.

"Yet among the traditionalists, one finds a whole host of other, far more rare, beliefs—many of which find more than a passing precedent in more conservative, but still decidedly mainstream, strains of Eastern Christian thought. There are, for example, monarchists, calling for a restoration of Imperial Russia or even a new Byzantine Empire."

While this may seem extreme, a strain of pro-monarchism runs through a great deal of even modern Orthodox thought, particularly within the Russian tradition where Tsar Nicholas II and his family are venerated as “passion-bearers.”

This statement, especially with the bold portions, states deductively that the "rare beliefs of monarchy" have a causation by means of mainstream strains of Orthodox thought. That the veneration of kings who are saints somehow suggests that monarchy is the best form of government, and the history of the Orthodox Church being associated with monarchies thus means the Orthodox Church holds dogmatically that monarchy is the only licit form of government for the Church to flourish in.

Summary: Anti-Semitism and homophobia are found and accepted in parts of the Orthodox Church and this allows white nationalists blend in. The institutional church has been "casual in challenging" (which is a far cry from supporting) these developments.

Anti-Semitism and homphobia and are hard to use for me as a valid criticism, because like racism or sexism, it is a term that can be used to dismiss people's ideologies on the grounds that they fall under the umbrella of these labels.

What does it mean to be Anti-Semitic?
To disagree with theological Judaism?
To believe that the Pharisees are culprits in killing Jesus Christ?
To disagree with theological Zionism?
To disagree with political Zionism?
To believe that there is some kind of Jewish conspiracy of evil theological Jews who are bringing about the New World Order?
To believe that there is some kind of Jewish conspiracy of evil ethnic Jews who are bringing about the New World Order?
To believe that ethnic Jews are the cause of all problems?
To believe that ethnic Jews need to be killed and to worship Hitler?

What about Homophobia? What does this mean?

To say that having same-sex intercourse is morally wrong?
To say that having same-sex relationships is morally wrong?
To say that same-sex marriage is morally wrong?
To go up to people and say "Dude, I'm a sinner, but I have to say that your moral lifestyle is sinful."?
To go up to people and say "You are going to hell for being gay!!!"?
To ostracize gay people?
To believe in homosexual segregation?
To believe in homosexual genocide?


There is a spectrum of interpretations as listed here, and you liberals take all of these interpretations as equivalent and as evil as the most extreme - or, the least interpretation always causes the most extreme interpretation.

Simply because the Orthodox Church condemns homosexual lifestyles and recognizes the sins of the Pharisees does not mean that the Orthodox Church is a radical organization that wants to oppress people who are Jewish or homosexual.

And the Orthodox Church doesn't "casually not debate" against homosexuality, it prohibits it, as it has for 2000 years.
The article is suggesting that these articles of faith are equivalent to extremist views, as you are suggesting.

"When high-profile, decidedly mainstream Orthodox converts like Rod Dreher promote the idea that modern society has become so corrupt that Christians should separate themselves from society completely and cites gay marriage as his “case-in-point,” what message does it send to other, less-refined discontents? What about when a respected theologians questions about the anti-Semitic nature of the Holy Week prayers becomes an internet firestorm of abuse?"

This quote even suggests that Christian asceticism and separation from the world, as Saint Paul calls us to do, is somehow homophobic.

And your response to the point in question:
Quote
Summary: Escapist/ defeatist narratives like the Ben Op might encourage other "other, less refined discontents" (ie white nationalists) in framing their white separatism as a pious walling off from a diseased society. I see nothing here about "the entire Orthodox Church."

The author in question was talking about "homophobia" so to speak, but okay - but identifying the individual in the article as "moderate" doesn't do harm.

Quote
"There is no evidence that the institutional Orthodox churches in America, its clergy, and the vast majority of its laity has anything but disdain for these extremists co-opting Eastern Christianity."

Quote
A sentence that directly contradicts your assertion that this article accuses  "the entire Orthodox Church of supporting Nationalism and White Supremacy".



However, despite this error which I will admit, I still standby my viewpoints.

The problem with the article is that it sees mainstream Orthodox thought as the causation of radicalism, by identifying moderate ideologies with radicalism and connecting the two using fallacious logic.

Oh, and in case you miss the deduction, condemning "mainstream Orthodox thought" and calling the Orthodox Church's stance against homosexuality as being under the same umbrella as those dang right-wing extremists, fascists, and Donald Trump supporters, who are all equivalent and definitely are a threat to America's sovereignty - and suggesting that moderate thought causes radical ideologies is literally blaming the entire institution of the Orthodox Church on facilitating White Supremacy and the other deplorable ideas the article perpetuates, and implies the solution is to censure it and "correct its dogma."

This "solution" is heresy. The idea that the Church needs to change its morality in order to conform to that of the age is heresy, as demonstrated by countless stories in the Old Testament, the New Testament, the history of the Early Church, and the history of the Church post-schism, and the Church to this day in persecuted regions.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 12:08:34 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #76 on: August 22, 2017, 12:17:35 PM »
So, when they feel their coded, subliminal racism is  being called out too much (the poor snowflakes) they feel the need to become explicitly and publicly racist instead. Yeah, and somehow that's the left's fault. Okay.

Thank you by demonstrating my point about using ad-hominem argumentation. Even in rebutting my claims, you couldn't even hold the urge to NOT demonstrate it as an example!

I think you should research the meaning of "ad hominem."

Quote
Can you explain how we are using coded, subliminal racism?

What "we" are you identifying yourself with? 

Quote
Is critiquing the BLM movement subliminal, coded racism?

It depends on what the critique is. Any political movement can be critiqued legitimately. Some rightwing critiques of BLM are openly racist.

Quote
Is not voting for Hillary Clinton subliminal, coded racism?

Since I didn't vote for her, I hope not.

Quote
that the right side of the political spectrum is all part of this "conspiracy" to regress society back to slavery?

A strawman of a strawman.

Quote
The author states that certain groups of people are using an ideology which adheres to nationalism and "anti-globalist agrarianism" (which I assume is a reference to European Monarchialism), and suggests that these ideologies are connected by "not sounding dissimilar" to the rhetoric of the White House.

Quite an assumption.
Quote
This statement, especially with the bold portions, states deductively that the "rare beliefs of monarchy" have a causation by means of mainstream strains of Orthodox thought. That the veneration of kings who are saints somehow suggests that monarchy is the best form of government, and the history of the Orthodox Church being associated with monarchies thus means the Orthodox Church holds dogmatically that monarchy is the only licit form of government for the Church to flourish in.
Your "deductions" are logical leaps unsupported by the text.

Anti-Semitism can mean a lot of things, for sure. In the context of Orthodoxy though there are some concrete examples. I could mention, for instance, the pogroms of Tsarist Russia, sometimes condoned or at least winked at by political and ecclesial authorities. I could mention Saint Nicholai Velimirovic's vicious invective against the Jews which he wrote while at Dachau prison camp, and his implicit sympathy for the pro-Nazi ZBOR movement. I could mention the brutal fascist movement the Iron Guard which participated gleefully in the holocaust and continues to have a following among respected people in the Romanian church. I could mention Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus who has some admirers among "traditionalists" and talks about a global Jewish conspiracy and even accuses the Jews of causing the holocaust so they could get their own state. Yes, there is a virulent problem in modern Orthodoxy that could justly be labeled anti-Semitism.

Regarding homophobia, I'm not interested in divining what the author means by this term. It is indeed very broad and opportunistically defined and re-defined in many contexts. But however you decide it, your argument that the above article accuses the entire Orthodox Church of supporting white nationalism is unsupported by the text and in fact flatly contradicted by it.

Quote
"When high-profile, decidedly mainstream Orthodox converts like Rod Dreher promote the idea that modern society has become so corrupt that Christians should separate themselves from society completely and cites gay marriage as his “case-in-point,” what message does it send to other, less-refined discontents? What about when a respected theologians questions about the anti-Semitic nature of the Holy Week prayers becomes an internet firestorm of abuse?"

This quote even suggests that Christian asceticism and separation from the world, as Saint Paul calls us to do, is somehow homophobic.

It does not suggest that.

Quote
The problem with the article is that it sees mainstream Orthodox thought as the causation of radicalism

It clearly doesn't.

« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 12:18:08 PM by Iconodule »
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline juliogb

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #77 on: August 22, 2017, 12:42:50 PM »
Quote
It begins:
http://religiondispatches.org/white-supremacy-and-orthodox-christianity-a-dangerous-connection-rears-its-head-in-charlottesville/

So Orthodoxy has this conspiratorial apparatus to encourage white supremacy, and it isn't caused by the almost-fascist suppression tactics of the radical left and Antifa. And obviously, people posting racist things equivocates to those people being representative of the organization as a whole.
Following this logic, the Democratic Party must be communist, correct?
And if all correlation equivocates to causation, then the rooster MUST cause the sun to rise, as the rooster crows every time the sun is about to rise.

Their arguments, following their logic, must apply to all ascetic religions if valid, so the only reasonable approach is to dismantle all historical and cultural value systems until we are all hedonists.

Give me a break.

Well, I read the text and I didn't understand that the author says that the orthodox church condones white nationalism, just says that white nationalists exists in the orthodox church.

I understand this, lots of white nationalists are traditionalists and they seek for old roots, traditions, ancient culture, and the orthodox church is one of the main communions in christianity that kept those traditions and culture, so it is indeed atractive to a lot of people that may have white nationalist simpathies, and also traditionalists, nationalists... that don't want to break up with christianity(like some do going to neo-paganism or agnosticism) but also feel unconfortable with the major post-modernist influences within protestant and roman catholic churches.

A similar phenonemon happened within black north american men in the 50s,60 and 70s with the growth of interest for Islam, wich ended in the conversion of a lot of black men to the sect Nation of Islam and then to actual Islam, in a response to mainstream protestantism.

One of the problems is that the media usually puts monarchists, russian empire nostalgics, neonazis, traditionalists and so on in the same category and label them all as nazis, they indeed have some similarities, specially the ancient culture fascination.

PS.radical left and antifa are full fascists in my point of view.

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #78 on: August 22, 2017, 12:45:50 PM »
So, when they feel their coded, subliminal racism is  being called out too much (the poor snowflakes) they feel the need to become explicitly and publicly racist instead. Yeah, and somehow that's the left's fault. Okay.

Thank you by demonstrating my point about using ad-hominem argumentation. Even in rebutting my claims, you couldn't even hold the urge to NOT demonstrate it as an example!

I think you should research the meaning of "ad hominem."

Quote
Can you explain how we are using coded, subliminal racism?

What "we" are you identifying yourself with? 

Quote
Is critiquing the BLM movement subliminal, coded racism?

It depends on what the critique is. Any political movement can be critiqued legitimately. Some rightwing critiques of BLM are openly racist.


Quote
Is not voting for Hillary Clinton subliminal, coded racism?

Since I didn't vote for her, I hope not.

Quote
that the right side of the political spectrum is all part of this "conspiracy" to regress society back to slavery?

A strawman of a strawman.

Quote
The author states that certain groups of people are using an ideology which adheres to nationalism and "anti-globalist agrarianism" (which I assume is a reference to European Monarchialism), and suggests that these ideologies are connected by "not sounding dissimilar" to the rhetoric of the White House.

Quite an assumption.


Quote
This statement, especially with the bold portions, states deductively that the "rare beliefs of monarchy" have a causation by means of mainstream strains of Orthodox thought. That the veneration of kings who are saints somehow suggests that monarchy is the best form of government, and the history of the Orthodox Church being associated with monarchies thus means the Orthodox Church holds dogmatically that monarchy is the only licit form of government for the Church to flourish in.
Your "deductions" are logical leaps unsupported by the text.


_________


Anti-Semitism can mean a lot of things, for sure. In the context of Orthodoxy though there are some concrete examples. I could mention, for instance, the pogroms of Tsarist Russia, sometimes condoned or at least winked at by political and ecclesial authorities. I could mention Saint Nicholai Velimirovic's vicious invective against the Jews which he wrote while at Dachau prison camp, and his implicit sympathy for the pro-Nazi ZBOR movement. I could mention the brutal fascist movement the Iron Guard which participated gleefully in the holocaust and continues to have a following among respected people in the Romanian church. I could mention Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus who has some admirers among "traditionalists" and talks about a global Jewish conspiracy and even accuses the Jews of causing the holocaust so they could get their own state. Yes, there is a virulent problem in modern Orthodoxy that could justly be labeled anti-Semitism.


_____


Regarding homophobia, I'm not interested in divining what the author means by this term. It is indeed very broad and opportunistically defined and re-defined in many contexts. But however you decide it, your argument that the above article accuses the entire Orthodox Church of supporting white nationalism is unsupported by the text and in fact flatly contradicted by it.

Quote
"When high-profile, decidedly mainstream Orthodox converts like Rod Dreher promote the idea that modern society has become so corrupt that Christians should separate themselves from society completely and cites gay marriage as his “case-in-point,” what message does it send to other, less-refined discontents? What about when a respected theologians questions about the anti-Semitic nature of the Holy Week prayers becomes an internet firestorm of abuse?"

This quote even suggests that Christian asceticism and separation from the world, as Saint Paul calls us to do, is somehow homophobic.

It does not suggest that.

Quote
The problem with the article is that it sees mainstream Orthodox thought as the causation of radicalism

It clearly doesn't.



In order from top to bottom, responding to each bold section that Iconodule posted:

1. "Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself."

How does calling right-wingers "poor snow-flakes" not fall under this definition? Or stating that their arguments are actually intended to be coded racism? Do enlighten me.

2. In this particular instance, I am identifying myself with the right, as the article is clearly Liberal in its ideology, and I disagree with it.
So if stating that right-wingers are this or that, which envelops the entirety of conservative ideology, envelops me to a degree because even though I am also conservative on certain other political debates, I am conservative in this debate about the article.

3. My problem with you though is not so much whether or not ideas can be critiqued or not, but as I have previously stated, the methodology employed.

Would you say that this is a valid form of argumentation?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwtbLLw-6iw

Simply trying to shut him up by interrupting them by straw manning and ad-hominem attacks?

And the problem is that you, Iconodule, are stating that this methodology is valid.

If you disagree with the methodology of the video shown in question, you HAVE to admit that simply "calling out people's racism" is too broad of an argument that can be applicable based on one's own subjective interpretation of what it means to be racist. There is a spectrum of this too along the lines of what I posted about Anti-Semitism and Homophobia, but using this form of argument, even the most minuscule controversy - even if it is not racist - can be called racist and dismissed on the grounds that racism is bad.

4. "So, when they feel their coded, subliminal racism is being called out too much (the poor snowflakes) they feel the need to become explicitly and publicly racist instead. Yeah, and somehow that's the left's fault. Okay. "

- this is your quote. What else could you possible mean by this quotation if the racism is "subliminal" and "coded?" The implication of this quote alone is that there is a hidden motive of racism that is obscured by language, and the implication of this implication is that there is a conspiracy by the right wing ideologues to bring back racism, which can be further implied to suggest that slavery should be brought back.

5. How is it "quite the assumption?" What else could he possible mean? Considering that the article brings up the Russian Tsardom and its connection to Orthodoxy, and Monarchy as a political ideology connected to Orthodoxy, it is only nature that when he is referring to "agrarianism" he is referring to a society similar to the Russian Tsardom, which was an agrarian monarchy!

6. This doesn't help - how are they logical leaps?

7. What dogmatic definition of the Church states that Anti-Semitism is something to be encourages? Are those historical events condoned by the Orthodox Church today?

If you are suggesting that certain events will always be applicable in its ideology to a certain groups of people for all eternity, that logic is very unsound, as you are reversing the conditional in your already flawed logic.

By that logic, the Orthodox Church also condones genocide against the Muslims and Catholics, due to the actions of the Serbian Church clergy in the Bosnian Genocide, and the Germans are eugenically anti-Semitic due to Nazism!

And despite the radical interpretations of Orthodoxy, my problem is that the author of the article follows this same fallacious logic and attempts to use examples of radical Orthodox Church members to somehow demonstrate that this stems from the Orthodox Church's mainstream thoughts!

8. But dude... it's coded racism!

But anyways, no it is not, because when looking at the article's content, you can clearly derive the paper's thesis. The contradiction which I incorrectly pointed out makes the assumption that mainstream Orthodox thought is not their extremely broad definition of "homophobic" and "anti-Semitic," and sees Orthodoxy as acceptable if it accepts homosexuality and promotes indifferentism between Judaism and Orthodoxy due to its broad ideological umbrella of "homophobic" and "anti-Semitic," including all of the definitions which I previously brought up.

9. Explain.

10. Explain.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 12:46:31 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #79 on: August 22, 2017, 12:51:45 PM »
Quote
It begins:
http://religiondispatches.org/white-supremacy-and-orthodox-christianity-a-dangerous-connection-rears-its-head-in-charlottesville/

So Orthodoxy has this conspiratorial apparatus to encourage white supremacy, and it isn't caused by the almost-fascist suppression tactics of the radical left and Antifa. And obviously, people posting racist things equivocates to those people being representative of the organization as a whole.
Following this logic, the Democratic Party must be communist, correct?
And if all correlation equivocates to causation, then the rooster MUST cause the sun to rise, as the rooster crows every time the sun is about to rise.

Their arguments, following their logic, must apply to all ascetic religions if valid, so the only reasonable approach is to dismantle all historical and cultural value systems until we are all hedonists.

Give me a break.

Well, I read the text and I didn't understand that the author says that the orthodox church condones white nationalism, just says that white nationalists exists in the orthodox church.

I understand this, lots of white nationalists are traditionalists and they seek for old roots, traditions, ancient culture, and the orthodox church is one of the main communions in christianity that kept those traditions and culture, so it is indeed atractive to a lot of people that may have white nationalist simpathies, and also traditionalists, nationalists... that don't want to break up with christianity(like some do going to neo-paganism or agnosticism) but also feel unconfortable with the major post-modernist influences within protestant and roman catholic churches.

A similar phenonemon happened within black north american men in the 50s,60 and 70s with the growth of interest for Islam, wich ended in the conversion of a lot of black men to the sect Nation of Islam and then to actual Islam, in a response to mainstream protestantism.


One of the problems is that the media usually puts monarchists, russian empire nostalgics, neonazis, traditionalists and so on in the same category and label them all as nazis, they indeed have some similarities, specially the ancient culture fascination.

PS.radical left and antifa are full fascists in my point of view.


This is what I am arguing - but as I pointed out in my quotes from the essay, my problem and where I disagree with you is it suggests that mainstream Orthodox thought is the causation of these radical Neo-Nazis, White Supremacists, or its one of the many sources, and what they call "Orthodox Traditionalists."
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 12:52:51 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

Offline Iconodule

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #80 on: August 22, 2017, 12:56:03 PM »
I don't have the time or inclination to continue a point by point argument, especially with someone so inclined to misinterpret and distort. Does anyone else here, on reading the Katherine Kelaidis article, see it as arguing that the entire Orthodox Church supports white nationalism?
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #81 on: August 22, 2017, 01:01:33 PM »
I don't have the time or inclination to continue a point by point argument, especially with someone so inclined to misinterpret and distort. Does anyone else here, on reading the Katherine Kelaidis article, see it as arguing that the entire Orthodox Church supports white nationalism?

Talk about distorting and not arguing in good faith. Who has time for your posts when they stoop to this level?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #82 on: August 22, 2017, 01:01:45 PM »
I don't have the time or inclination to continue a point by point argument, especially with someone so inclined to misinterpret and distort. Does anyone else here, on reading the Katherine Kelaidis article, see it as arguing that the entire Orthodox Church supports white nationalism?

My main argument is not so much that the author says the Orthodox Church supports white nationalism...
the argument is that the Orthodox Church's traditional values are some of the causes of white nationalism, which is what I totally disagree with.

But maybe I'm completely reading too much into the article - what are your guys thoughts?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 01:10:19 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2017, 01:03:31 PM »
I don't have the time or inclination to continue a point by point argument, especially with someone so inclined to misinterpret and distort. Does anyone else here, on reading the Katherine Kelaidis article, see it as arguing that the entire Orthodox Church supports white nationalism?

Talk about distorting and not arguing in good faith. Who has time for your posts when they stoop to this level?

Wrong again, PO'd:

This article uses the latter, accusing the entire Orthodox Church of supporting Nationalism and White Supremacy,

Back to your hole now.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 01:04:31 PM by Iconodule »
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline juliogb

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #84 on: August 22, 2017, 01:04:50 PM »
Quote
Quote
This is what I am arguing - but as I pointed out in my quotes from the essay, my problem and where I disagree with you is it suggests that mainstream Orthodox thought is the causation of these radical Neo-Nazis, White Supremacists, or its one of the many sources, and what they call "Orthodox Traditionalists."


Well, I read the article again, and there is a part where we can identify some exageration of the author:

Quote
While the Neo-Nazis and Neo-Confederates may be relatively few in number, there is increasing evidence that Orthodoxy has become an integral part of the ideological and recruitment apparatus within some segments of the white supremacist movement.

In this part I must agree with you that the article's author was indeed exagerated about the role of Orthodoxy in white nationalism culture, there is interest in those circles in the orthodox church indeed, but I'd say that most of that interest is due to the liturgy, the art and rituals and the moral conservatism, not the Gospel or the Eucharist.


Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #85 on: August 22, 2017, 01:07:33 PM »
I don't have the time or inclination to continue a point by point argument, especially with someone so inclined to misinterpret and distort. Does anyone else here, on reading the Katherine Kelaidis article, see it as arguing that the entire Orthodox Church supports white nationalism?

Talk about distorting and not arguing in good faith. Who has time for your posts when they stoop to this level?

Wrong again, PO'd:

This article uses the latter, accusing the entire Orthodox Church of supporting Nationalism and White Supremacy,

Back to your hole now.

Oh. I'm sorry.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #86 on: August 22, 2017, 01:10:59 PM »
I don't have the time or inclination to continue a point by point argument, especially with someone so inclined to misinterpret and distort. Does anyone else here, on reading the Katherine Kelaidis article, see it as arguing that the entire Orthodox Church supports white nationalism?

Talk about distorting and not arguing in good faith. Who has time for your posts when they stoop to this level?

Wrong again, PO'd:

This article uses the latter, accusing the entire Orthodox Church of supporting Nationalism and White Supremacy,

Back to your hole now.

Oh. I'm sorry.

I appreciate the support, though.

I still argue he is distorting what the author's intent was, however.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 01:12:11 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2017, 01:11:31 PM »
I don't have the time or inclination to continue a point by point argument, especially with someone so inclined to misinterpret and distort. Does anyone else here, on reading the Katherine Kelaidis article, see it as arguing that the entire Orthodox Church supports white nationalism?

My main argument is not so much that the Orthodox Church supports white nationalism...
the argument is that the Orthodox Church's traditional values are some of the causes of white nationalism, which is what I totally disagree with.

But maybe I'm completely reading too much into the article - what are your guys thoughts?

I see it the same as you, a hit piece. The political atmosphere right now is getting very tiresome.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2017, 01:13:31 PM »
I don't have the time or inclination to continue a point by point argument, especially with someone so inclined to misinterpret and distort. Does anyone else here, on reading the Katherine Kelaidis article, see it as arguing that the entire Orthodox Church supports white nationalism?

My main argument is not so much that the Orthodox Church supports white nationalism...
the argument is that the Orthodox Church's traditional values are some of the causes of white nationalism, which is what I totally disagree with.

But maybe I'm completely reading too much into the article - what are your guys thoughts?

I see it the same as you, a hit piece. The political atmosphere right now is getting very tiresome.

To quote Bob Dylan, "The times, they are a-changin'."
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

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Re: The United Methodist Church has appointed a transgender deacon.
« Reply #89 on: August 22, 2017, 01:31:31 PM »
Katherine Kelaidis is an Orthodox Christian. Her writing is not irreproachable but she is sincerely addressing a major problem facing Orthodoxy. I could hardly call it a hit piece- if anything, it leaves some of the worst details out.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum