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Author Topic: Indonesian Muslims, tolerant and understanding - Ya gotta love'm.  (Read 2724 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 16, 2005, 12:01:37 AM »

Indonesian Sunday School Teachers Sentenced to Three Years in Prison

Indonesian judges sentenced three women on September 1st to three years in prison for allowing Muslim children to attend a Christian Sunday School program, "Happy Sunday". Rebekka Zakaria, Eti Pangesti and Ratna Bangun received the sentence after judges found them guilty of attempting to convert children under the Child Protection Act of 2002. The Sunday school teachers had instructed the children to get permission from their parents before attending the program, and those who did not have permission were asked to go home, according to Jeff Hammond of Bless Indonesia Today. The three women were relieved that they had not been given the maximum five-year prison sentence and plan to appeal the conviction but were devastated at the prospect of being separated from their children.

As they have done throughout the trial, Islamic extremists made murderous threats both inside and outside the courtroom. Hammond said several truckloads of extremists arrived; one brought a coffin to bury the accused if they were found innocent. "The ladies, witnesses and judges were constantly under the threats of violence from hundreds of Islamic radicals who threatened to kill the three ladies, witnesses, pastors, missionaries and even the judges if the women were acquitted," Hammond said.

Since the first accusations were made, Muslim authorities in West Java have forced Zakaria's church to close. Muslim leaders have forced at least 60 unlicensed churches in West Java to shut down over the past year, with minimal intervention from the government.
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« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2005, 01:40:44 AM »

Radical Moslem groups are slowly making their way around Indonesia, forcing priests and pastors of Christian churches to confess to "crimes" under threat of violence, and on the basis of those crimes have the churches closed.
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« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2005, 08:24:46 AM »

This story is not the least bit surprising.
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« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2005, 09:15:56 AM »

This story is not the least bit surprising.

I agree 100%! Until those in the west realize it is not some small sect of muslims that are fanatical extremists we will be  in trouble. Islam does not have a fanatical small extreme group of people in it. Islam is a fanatical extreme group with a very small group of moderates.

I grew up Roman Catholic in a mostly RC neighborhood of NY. When the IRA used to murder protestants nobody came out in the street and danced. Why is that?
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« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2005, 09:25:24 AM »

This I expect from moslems, what I, again, fail to understand is why the west does not see the problem the existance of islam causes. I do wonder if they will ever come to their senses and realize that we need to solve the islamic problem and not just continue putting it off for a different time and place.
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« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2005, 09:55:16 AM »

This I expect from moslems, what I, again, fail to understand is why the west does not see the problem the existance of islam causes. I do wonder if they will ever come to their senses and realize that we need to solve the islamic problem and not just continue putting it off for a different time and place.

I know what you're saying, but in reality, what can the West (or anyone for that matter) do about it? We can't just invade every country which adopts sharia law.
It makes me nervous when people talk about "the Islamic problem".....it has echoes of Hitler's "Final Solution" for the "Jewish Problem". 
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« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2005, 10:08:08 AM »

I know what you're saying, but in reality, what can the West (or anyone for that matter) do about it? We can't just invade every country which adopts sharia law.
It makes me nervous when people talk about "the Islamic problem".....it has echoes of Hitler's "Final Solution" for the "Jewish Problem".ÂÂ  

George,

To start with, the "West" could stop the Islamic expansion into Europe (see Kosovo and Bosnia, along with Northwestern FYROM).

Furthermore, I think western nations need to check their immigration policies.  Look at the plain facts.  In Saudi Arabia, it is ILLEGAL to be a Christian.  It is ILLEGAL to build a Church.

However, how much Saudi Arabian dollars are being spent in the USA building mosque after mosque.  Where is the equality and when will we open our eyes?
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« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2005, 10:11:33 AM »

But when the "West" seperated Church and State, it gave up it's right to any claim that any western country is "Christian".
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« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2005, 10:13:30 AM »

I know what you're saying, but in reality, what can the West (or anyone for that matter) do about it? We can't just invade every country which adopts sharia law.
It makes me nervous when people talk about "the Islamic problem".....it has echoes of Hitler's "Final Solution" for the "Jewish Problem". 

Cut off immigration from islamic countries. Bind any financial aid to an islamic country to its human rights record.

Also the  so called "Jewish Problem" and "the islamic problem" are very different. There was no "Jewish Problem" because Jews were not murdering people and trying to convert them. Hitler was a mad man and his fear of the Jews was something in his head that had no grounds in reality. There is a real danger that islam presents to the world. Not just the west but to the world.
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« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2005, 10:15:44 AM »

Edit: When I say cut off  immigration from islamic countries I don't mean christians trapped there.
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« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2005, 10:17:29 AM »

But when the "West" seperated Church and State, it gave up it's right to any claim that any western country is "Christian".

In a sense this is true, but it neglects the reality of Islam.  It is not so much a religion as it is an excuse for repression and violence and any progressive society has the right to deter repression and violence.

Often western mosque's are staging points to preach hate and organize money for terrorism.
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« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2005, 10:29:42 AM »

In a sense this is true, but it neglects the reality of Islam.  It is not so much a religion as it is an excuse for repression and violence and any progressive society has the right to deter repression and violence.

Often western mosque's are staging points to preach hate and organize money for terrorism.

I know. But unless you outlaw or repress Islam in the U.S. {for example), then there is no way of dealing with these issues. And if you do outlaw or repress Islam in the US, you set up a dangerous precedent.
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« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2005, 10:36:01 AM »

I know. But unless you outlaw or repress Islam in the U.S. {for example), then there is no way of dealing with these issues. And if you do outlaw or repress Islam in the US, you set up a dangerous precedent.

See, I don't think you set a dangerous precedent because it wouldn't be a precedent based on religion, but based on violence.

You say, "all institution found to be supporting terrorism and/or repressive regimes, shall be closed in the interest of national security".
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« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2005, 10:38:11 AM »

The problem for the US (its government) is that they are in bed with too many repressive regimes.  Saudi Arabia is case in point.
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« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2005, 10:53:12 AM »

I know what you're saying, but in reality, what can the West (or anyone for that matter) do about it? We can't just invade every country which adopts sharia law.
It makes me nervous when people talk about "the Islamic problem".....it has echoes of Hitler's "Final Solution" for the "Jewish Problem". 

ozgeorge,
Just this morning I finished reading Michael J. Arlen's Passage to Ararat. Hilter's "Final Solution" for the "Jewish Problem" was taken from the proto-type witnessed in 1915-1916 by the German generals' of the Sultan's solution for his "Armenian Problem". Everything was the same except the method of slaughter - disarmament, family separation, forced exile, starvation, slave labor, concentration camps. True, the Germans were more efficient in their dastardly deeds and the Turks encouraged their Muslim citizens to do the dirty work instead of using government resources. But it was the same crime nevertheless.
What can we do? Only one thing - stop revising history and keep the truth out in front.
Islam is a plague.
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« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2005, 11:00:39 AM »

See, I don't think you set a dangerous precedent because it wouldn't be a precedent based on religion, but based on violence.
You say, "all institution found to be supporting terrorism and/or repressive regimes, shall be closed in the interest of national security".
But not all mosques support terrorism- many have spoken out against it. So excluding institutions on the basis of violence won't stop the expansion of Islam- you would have to prove that Islam (and not just Islamic extremists)  support terrorism and pose a threat to National Security. And this decision could only be based on the theological examination of Islam So you either have to ban the religion or not. And if you do, then what makes you any different from countries like Indonesia and Saudi Arabia?
Don't get me wrong, I think Islam as a religion has violence at it's basis- what I'm saying is that it's too nebulous to prove.

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« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2005, 11:04:45 AM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=7162.msg93859#msg93859 date=1126882392]
Islam is a plague.
[/quote]

I know, I know, I know...
What I am saying is that the way we've set up western society, there is sweet nothing we can do about it now, except, as you say: "stop revising history and keep the truth out in front"- in other words, bemoan the position we have placed ourselves in.
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« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2005, 11:08:40 AM »

But not all mosques support terrorism- many have spoken out against it. So excluding institutions on the basis of violence won't stop the expansion of Islam-

A couple of things in response.

While I agree (in theory) that not all mosques support terrorism, I strongly disagree that *many* have spoken out against it.

I can tell you if *many* were speaking out against terrorism (at least here in the USA), I haven't heard/read or seen it.

Excluding institutions that support violence COUPLED with a change in immigration policy and stopping support for "Islamic" nations will (f not stop) slow the expansion of Islam.
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« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2005, 11:20:01 AM »

Excluding institutions that support violence
COUPLED with a change in immigration policy
and stopping support for "Islamic" nations will (f not stop) slow the expansion of Islam.
You see these three suggestions you make? What I am saying is that, no matter how beneficial they may be, they are now unachievable given our western social values and systems. You cannot seperate Church and State, and then integrate them again to address the case of one religion. This wouldn't be a problem if we were living in the Byzantine Empire, but we aren't!
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« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2005, 11:26:54 AM »

You see these three suggestions you make? What I am saying is that, no matter how beneficial they may be, they are now unachievable given our western social values and systems. You cannot seperate Church and State, and then integrate them again to address the case of one religion. This wouldn't be a problem if we were living in the Byzantine Empire, but we aren't!

See, I think it can (and should) be done.  I don't see anything above as blatantly unconstitutional.  It would just create a lot of work for a lot of attorneys.  Wink  Nothing wrong with that! LOL Tongue
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« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2005, 11:35:49 AM »

I don't see anything above as blatantly unconstitutional.ÂÂ  

hmmmm....."subtly unconstitutional?"....."insidiously unconstitutional?"....."surreptitiously unconstitutional?" Cheesy
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« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2005, 11:45:17 AM »

I have one word that will silence all of you


OIL

Brother SS. If Kosovo was an oil producing nation that whole war would have been fought differently, if fought at all.
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« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2005, 12:00:44 PM »

I have one word that will silence all of you
OIL

It won't silence me....I think the West should have done more R&D into sustainable energy sources decades ago. I would rather drive a car that put-puts along on mung bean juice than have to suck up to OPEC....
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« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2005, 12:06:21 PM »

Brother SS. If Kosovo was an oil producing nation that whole war would have been fought differently, if fought at all.

This AND, if the former Serbian leadership would've puckered up to kiss "western" behinds (the way the current leadership is), then it would have been very different.

Quote
It won't silence me....I think the West should have done more R&D into sustainable energy sources decades ago. I would rather drive a car that put-puts along on mung bean juice than have to suck up to OPEC....

I agree with this 100%, but this is said like a true NON-AMERICAN.  Remember, this is the land of excess, where everyone wants a Escalade, Hummer, Land Rover, blah, blah, blah.

Go to your nearest shopping mall and check out what you see in the lot.  God forbid anyone drive a 4 cylinder automobile!  Why the heck would anyone want to get 34 miles per gallon, when the can 14 mpg from a Ford F-150*.






*all figures are guestimates - lol
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« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2005, 01:46:53 PM »

I know what you're saying, but in reality, what can the West (or anyone for that matter) do about it? We can't just invade every country which adopts sharia law.
It makes me nervous when people talk about "the Islamic problem".....it has echoes of Hitler's "Final Solution" for the "Jewish Problem".ÂÂ  

No, we can't invade everyone, but there are other ways, economic and diplomatic, to effect change, an American Embargo is a very powerful weapon, and if the rest of the west were to go in on it, it would be deadly to any regime. Of course, this presupposes we solve the oil problem, which we have the technological capabilities to do (bio-diesel, hydorgen, etc.), we're just not willing to spend the resources to force the transistion along, plus the wealthy oil companies want to maintain the status quo as long as possible. As far as my 'Final Solution' for the 'Islamic Problem' I dont suggest anything as radical as Hitler did for the Jews; while I do advocate a shrinking, and hopefully eventual elimination, of Islam, I think re-education and secularization, not genocide, is the key (yes, Christianization would be ideal, but let's be somewhat realistic).

But not all mosques support terrorism- many have spoken out against it. So excluding institutions on the basis of violence won't stop the expansion of Islam- you would have to prove that Islam (and not just Islamic extremists)  support terrorism and pose a threat to National Security. And this decision could only be based on the theological examination of Islam So you either have to ban the religion or not. And if you do, then what makes you any different from countries like Indonesia and Saudi Arabia?

There is a considerable difference between the common proposal I seem to see here and Countries like Indonesia and Saudi Arabia, we want to limit Islam, not establish a Christian Theocracy. Personally, I'm happy enough to live by Christians of any persuasion, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Animists, Theists, Atheists, Agnostics, et cetera, and most all these groups recognize that they'd be substantially better off without the Moslems. There happens to be one major world religion that is a significant problem, and I do not think it is unrealistic to believe we should single it out...If one country was the source of all the problems Islam is, we'd certainly take some action to limit the country, I dont see how singling out islam is much different.

This wouldn't be a problem if we were living in the Byzantine Empire, but we aren't!

Now that is a great tragedy, our God-Beloved Emperors could certainly have worked on a solution to this problem Wink
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« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2005, 03:10:57 PM »

Actually there are several things governments can do immediantly.  The USA, UK, France and Germany all ought to immediantly stop the massive immigration from islamic countries.  Not politically correct, but a sad reality if we want to keep our identity...
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« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2005, 06:55:01 PM »

Go to your nearest shopping mall and check out what you see in the lot.  God forbid anyone drive a 4 cylinder automobile!  Why the heck would anyone want to get 34 miles per gallon, when the can 14 mpg from a Ford F-150*.
Well, you've got to impresss the other parents somehow when you pick up the kids from school. One of the most popular 4WD here in Australia was the "Pajero", and someone started a joke support group for "Parents Without Pajeros" at a nearby public school. PWP has now grown to be one of the most popular social clubs in the Blue Mountains! What's even funnier is what "Pajero" actually means in Spanish!

Actually there are several things governments can do immediantly.ÂÂ  The USA, UK, France and Germany all ought to immediantly stop the massive immigration from islamic countries.ÂÂ  Not politically correct, but a sad reality if we want to keep our identity...
The problem isn't that it's politically incorrect, but that it's unconstitutional.
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« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2005, 07:43:52 PM »

America has shut its doors on immigration before and to specific groups (i.e Chinese exclusion act).  But when Turkey enters the EU it will create huge problems if any sort of immigration restrictions are placed upon Turks.  Realistically though I don't think any government will do much to help themselves in this matter. 
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« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2005, 07:47:24 PM »

The problem isn't that it's politically incorrect, but that it's unconstitutional.

Technically only the Religious Freedom of Citizens is preserved by the Constitution; a law that forbade the immigration of non-citizen Moslems would not be a violation of the First Amendment.
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« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2005, 10:12:22 PM »

One of the most popular 4WD here in Australia was the "Pajero", and someone started a joke support group for "Parents Without Pajeros" at a nearby public school. PWP has now grown to be one of the most popular social clubs in the Blue Mountains! What's even funnier is what "Pajero" actually means in Spanish!

LOL!  You got it!  "One who has relations with him/herself."

Others I've heard are the Pinto, which in Portuguese is term for a (ahem) not very well-endowed man, shall we say.

And the Nissan Moco...Moco is, of course, the word for booger.

And, last but certainly not least: the new Mazda Laputa -- "Mazda, the b*tch"!
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