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Author Topic: Catholic-Orthodox unity talks to reopen  (Read 7382 times) Average Rating: 0
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Pravoslavbob
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« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2005, 02:34:36 PM »

I think the Eastern Catholics will play a role in helping the Western Romans how to see things as the East does.

Sorry, no offence intended, but I think that you are either naive or unknowledgable about this.  The truth is that the Latin Church does not listen to the Eastern Catholic Churches when it comes to such matters.  They have gone from seeing the Eastern Catholic Churches as a model for unity to a kind of impediment, partly because the Orthodox see the Eastern Catholics as a major roadblock in negotiations. 

Bob
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« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2005, 07:14:26 PM »

Victor,

As I emntioned in a different post, earlier you had mentioend you were working on some answers to these questions. You've had time to post, but I must have missed your answers to the following questions. Please feel free to provide them.


Chris, it would take chapters to answer some of those questions. And to be honest, seeing as to how I get jumped on when I post anything. I'm starting to not feel comfortable here. Maybe this place isn't for me. Perhaps email or some other forum will be more suitable. PM me.

~Victor
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« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2005, 07:44:32 PM »

Chris, it would take chapters to answer some of those questions. And to be honest, seeing as to how I get jumped on when I post anything. I'm starting to not feel comfortable here. Maybe this place isn't for me. Perhaps email or some other forum will be more suitable. PM me.

~Victor

This is an Orthodox message board - what do you expect?

[changed my typo of 'bored' to 'board']
« Last Edit: October 20, 2005, 10:22:39 PM by Elisha » Logged
drewmeister2
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« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2005, 07:45:34 PM »

Sorry, no offence intended, but I think that you are either naive or unknowledgable about this.ÂÂ  The truth is that the Latin Church does not listen to the Eastern Catholic Churches when it comes to such matters.ÂÂ  They have gone from seeing the Eastern Catholic Churches as a model for unity to a kind of impediment, partly because the Orthodox see the Eastern Catholics as a major roadblock in negotiations.ÂÂ  

Bob

I think you are right.  I have been studying more about the Eastern Rite, and often I find how much control Rome still holds on to over the Eastern Churches. ÂÂ
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« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2005, 10:12:48 AM »

The truth is the Latin Church has indeed listened to the Eastern Catholics on a great variety of issues.  Many of the reforms of Vatican II were at the suggestion of Eastern Catholic hierarchs.  Even now the Synod of Bishops in Rome ( an Eastern suggestion) hasbeen hearing from Eastern Hierarchs and Latin Hierarchs have been suggesting very Eastern things such as aliturgical Fridays in Lent to name one.

The control the Curia exercise over the Eastern Churches are in direct proportion to the amount of control the Eastern bishops concede.  The Melkites have no time or use for the Curia.  The Ukrainians are getting to that point.  Other Churches it depends.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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Victor
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« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2005, 06:21:10 PM »

This is an Orthodox message board - what do you expect?

[changed my typo of 'bored' to 'board']

Charity...

~Victor
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Pravoslavbob
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« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2005, 12:54:39 AM »

The truth is the Latin Church has indeed listened to the Eastern Catholics on a great variety of issues.ÂÂ

Yes indeed, HAS listened.  Past tense.  As in 40-45 years ago.  I've already mentioned on another board, Deacon Lance, that I disagree with you regarding Melkite autonomy. 

Bob
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JoeS
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« Reply #52 on: October 24, 2005, 04:53:22 PM »

This is an Orthodox message board - what do you expect?

[changed my typo of 'bored' to 'board']

You ought to be an Orthodox Christian posting on a Roman Catholic forum. Now if you want to feel jumped on I know what you feel like.  Hey, when you are in someone elses domain you have to expect this from time to time.  I had to become thick skinned in order to not become discouraged on Catholic forum. 

JoeS
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« Reply #53 on: October 24, 2005, 05:05:46 PM »

I can only sigh at such remarks.

The Least
~Victor

I wasnt trying to be smart about saying what I said.  I have read volumes of ecumenical posts and the overwhelming point that came out of these readings was that most if not all differences that exist between the OC and the RCC can be worked out but first and foremost the OC must consider reconciliation with the Roman church and recognize her as the one true and universal church of God.

Now what message does the Orthodox Christian take away from these posts?  My take?  We can keep all our theology, ie disbelief in the Immaculate Conception, Original Sin, Purgatory, Essence/Energies, even our belief in divorce and the like as long as we recognize the pope as Supreme and Infallible.

JoeS
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« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2005, 12:03:59 AM »

I do not know if most Orthodox are OK with it but neither do you know that most Orthodox are not OK without.  I suspect the greatest number of both Catholics and Orthodox are indifferent and a small vocal minority on both sides protest such occurences loudly.  ÃƒÆ’‚ I leave it to our hierachs to decide what should and should not be happening.

Fr. Deacon Lance

You have said it perfectly!! Many are indifferent and Most Orthodox I know are very okay with it.  This is based on several factors that I will mention:

1. The brutal truth about day to day church operations: First, having been involved in Orthodox parish leadership ministries, such as parish council, they have learned some brutal truths that much of the spirit of Orthodox Christianity  is not necessarily embodied in church life outside of the Divine Liturgy. Talk about nasty church politics, underhanded dealings, you name it. People hate organized religion for these things.. and 'unorganized' organized religion, such as Orthodoxy, is susceptible even more...The hierarchs are spiritual leaders but not administrative heads... and that's where it all falls apart.  The closer you get to really learning about how a parish is run, the more you want to run away from it all...Because the Orthodox church is poor, some clergy will bend over backwards for anyone, crook or not, to await a potential handout of property for the church.  I am a firsthand witness to this, so I know what I'm talking about here.   For some of the more devout Orthodox I know who decided to volunteer more time to their church, they received a rude awakening that it operates on the day to day not in keeping with some of the basic principles of Christian honesty. Financial conflicts of interest pervade some councils and surprisingly  even the new GOA Uniform Parish Regulations, do not even set guidelines for such matters.  So, the first point is, this 'pure Orthodox Christian faith' is not practiced from top to bottom in parish administration.  The example is not even set for others to follow.  So the result: people don't see what the point of standing on ceremony on some matters of dogma are when at the same time the faith on the whole is sold down the river  for a hope of 10 acres of land to be donated by a despicable mafia type  land baron who intimidates all he comes in contact with, frightening people away from the church( like 20% left !).   And the clergy and hierarch bend over backwards for this person while he steps on the little people in the church..  This is just an example of what has become  common operations in the church... So, sadly, net net, the church leadership have  lost the their influence on the congregation...and they are not taken seriously...  The current belief of many  is that all of this stuff that causes animosity is nonsense. While differences between the churches may be real, in reality the differences are meaningless in the way the church operates.   

2. Interchristian Marriage:  In the US 70% of marriages that take place in the Orthodox church are interChristian. Basically that means that over time, most of the congregation consists of families that are day to day dealing with reconciling differences between the faiths.   All of the Orthodox families I know are interchristian, most  are Orthodox-Catholic, & they all pray for the day when the churches allow intercommunion. 

3. Which ministries mean the most to people:  In the GOA it's the Greek school and Greek dance groups.  Try to start a parish based on offering the Divine Liturgy and Sunday School and you won't get very far... ( I know that from experience)  Many just send their kids to these Greek ministries  and don't even go to church on Sunday.  So, they could care less if Roman Catholics received communion in the church.. because they don't even go.   Any resistance to a sudden 'merger' of the churches is based somewhat on pride and also  on a fear that the church will lose it's Greek offerings...

 In the end I believe the  formal re-unification process is by very small baby steps over time, so egos are not disturbed, and the comfort levels of all will be maintained.  Informally, it's already happened in the home..

In XC, Kizzy
 


 
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arjuna3110
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« Reply #55 on: November 03, 2005, 08:48:42 AM »


I think Kizzy's post was the most thought provoking in this entire thread.  Reunion *is* already happening at the level of families (at least, here in the U.S.) because of intermarriage of Catholics and Orthodox.  And, in order to maintain family unity and love, people are agreeing to disagree and to love and respect each other despite their formal religious differences.  And that is practical ecumenism and living the Gospel: to love one's neighbor, especially in one's own home.  It is not perfect reunion; but it is laying the groundwork for reunion, which is love.

As for the "big" issues . . . they are real, but they just don't seem to be that important in the lives of ordinary people. 

For example, a lot of American Catholics,  really *don't* believe in papal supremacy and infallibility.  Instead, they regard the pope as the leader of the Catholics and as a kind of first among equals of all bishops.  That change happened, in my opinion, when the papacy issued its condemnation of artificial birth control.  Most Catholics rejected (and continue to reject) the birth control teaching as ludicrous.  That plus other factors have led many Catholics to downgrade their view of the pope from a previous view as a supreme, infallible leader.  Instead, most Catholics (at least, here in America) regard the pope as the leader of their religion who is nevertheless quite fallible; and, they see the pope as potentially a symbol of unity among all Christians.  Most Catholics, however, don't say so in public because the "official" teaching is otherwise.  But, when you talk with ordinary American Catholics --perhaps those who don't go to internet chat rooms-- what I described is the general view.  And so, at least on the issue of the papacy, there is a real opportunity for Catholics and Orthodox to draw closer because a lot of lay Catholics are already close to the Orthodox view of things. 

The bishops and theologians can have their meetings; that is important.  But the real movement for reunion (at least, in the U.S.) is happening among the laity.  And, it could happen much more, if handled properly. 

I think the real issue, regarding reunion, for most Catholics in America is simple ignorance.  A lot of Catholics in the U.S. simply do not know of the *existence* of the Orthodox Church.  Many others know it exists, but they know nothing or almost nothing about it.  In this ignorance, there is a real opportunity for the Orthodox to educate Catholics about their religion and to draw closer with each other -- if the Orthodox want that and if they do so from love.
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« Reply #56 on: November 03, 2005, 12:42:01 PM »

2. Interchristian Marriage:  In the US 70% of marriages that take place in the Orthodox church are interChristian. Basically that means that over time, most of the congregation consists of families that are day to day dealing with reconciling differences between the faiths.  ÃƒÆ’‚ All of the Orthodox families I know are interchristian, most  are Orthodox-Catholic, & they all pray for the day when the churches allow intercommunion.  



I have a hard time believing this.  Maybe in the GOA, but I don't think it is so high elsewhere.
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« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2005, 01:46:00 PM »

Everyone pleez relax on attacking the GOA. Ok so this stuff is true. At my parish which is pretty new, most of the youth come to church on christmas, pascha, and maybe 3 other times of the year...I don't know the priest doesn't say anything....and yes the youth do come on Wednesdays for 2 hours to spend dancing and 4 hours on saturday morning learning the greek. But I know tons of churches downtown who have very dedicated youth who come to bible studies and go to meleti (spiritual talks) and attend liturgy regularly.

This doesn't just happen in the GOA. It's in the Serbian and Antiochian church too but these churches (esp) national churches like the Serbian, Ukrainian etc are a loooot smaller than the GOA.

I find that at the older parishes, and ones which have a very zealous priest, the youth thrive. when the priest turns a blind eye or doesn't have the energy (because he has to be an accountant, a businessman, and a seminarian teacher most of the time) or zeal to encourage ppl, ppl just don't care anymore.

It's not all the priest, but he has a lot to do with it.
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Pravoslavbob
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« Reply #58 on: November 03, 2005, 01:55:55 PM »

Very interesting, Arjuna. 

Bob
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« Reply #59 on: November 03, 2005, 02:11:49 PM »

I also find arjuna's post pretty much on the mark...

Bob, how bout smoking some of them walleye fillets & sending a few to So.Cal...they are rare out here.

james
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« Reply #60 on: November 06, 2005, 11:41:17 PM »

I have a hard time believing this.ÂÂ  Maybe in the GOA, but I don't think it is so high elsewhere.

The statistics are from the GOA yearbook, which can be accessed from their website, which includes a year by year historical account of marriages in the church. Note, the church is unable to record marriages of orthodoxthat take place outside of the church...it only records those that take place in their GOA churches.  Hence, considering that there are Orthodox people marrying in the Catholic church, etc.,. the statistics of inter-christian marriages of Orthodox is actually even higher. This trend is what lead to the establishment of the Department of Marriage in the GOA, with a special ministry focused on intermarriage.   The OCA does not include their stats on their website, so it cannot be understood for that jurisdiction.  However, my personal experience in the OCA churches has shown that a good number of interfaith parishioners turned there as   the local GO and Russian churches were too 'ethnic' and the OCA was a place where the non-Orthodox/non-ethnic  spouse could feel comfortable.  Some end up converting, but many do not.  Since the GOA is the largest in the US, their statistics are important as far as understanding what Orthodox of today may believe in terms of union.     

I also note that it is true as it was posted by Arjuna that American Catholics do not consider the Pope as their infallible leader.  I have had discussions with RC's and have found this to be true.  And the birth control issue is a big one... note not too many Catholics these days have 10 kids... and I have to believe they all don't believe they are not going to heaven just because of this.   In the end, the argument over union is between hierarchs on both sides, many who have lost the faith of their flocks... and the flocks are finding ways to cope.   To some degree I think of it as akin to divorced spouses arguing over getting together, while their children have found a way to keep the family whole.


In XC, Kizzy

 
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very eastern minded ...


« Reply #61 on: November 07, 2005, 02:53:58 AM »

  ÃƒÆ’‚Â

I also note that it is true as it was posted by Arjuna that American Catholics do not consider the Pope as their infallible leader.ÂÂ  I have had discussions with RC's and have found this to be true.ÂÂ  And the birth control issue is a big one...

 

Same kind of thoughts are more than common also among Scandinavian catholics...
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very eastern minded ...


« Reply #62 on: November 09, 2005, 02:11:10 PM »

Let us go back to the basis in the catholic-orthodox talks:
"What unites us is much stronger than what separates us." HH bishop of Rome and patriach of All the West John XXIII
Does the orthodox sisters and brothers share this?!?
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Pravoslavbob
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« Reply #63 on: November 09, 2005, 02:57:06 PM »

Bob, how bout smoking some of them walleye fillets & sending a few to So.Cal...they are rare out here.

Hey, you bet James!  Coming right up.   Wink
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