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Author Topic: Catholic-Orthodox unity talks to reopen  (Read 7570 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 15, 2005, 12:42:19 PM »

Catholic-Orthodox unity talks to reopen

CARDINAL Walter Kasper, President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, said this week that the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches were “fundamentally the one Church of Jesus Christ”.

Speaking at the nineteenth annual conference of the Sant’Egidio community in Lyons on Tuesday, the cardinal announced the restarting this autumn of the Catholic-Orthodox international theological commission, which had been suspended for four years during a row over the Uniate Churches in the Ukraine concerning disputed church property and proselytism.

Cardinal Kasper, speaking in a round-table session, said of Catholics and Orthodox: “They are the one Church in different liturgical, theological, spiritual and canonical forms. These differences are legitimate.” He added that obstacles to full communion were both of principle and practice. The Orthodox have concerns regarding the definition of Papal infallibility and this would be addressed by the commission in the autumn, said the cardinal: “The full unity of the Church — East and West — is a hope which will not disappoint.”

The cardinal said that, although progress would not be easy, there was already convergence on both sides, such as the acceptance by some Orthodox that “there cannot be synodality without primacy”. Synodality, or walking together, is the decentralising form of governance in the Orthodox Church and is underpinned by patriarchs being, in theory at least, primus inter pares, while Catholicism is essentially hierarchical and centralised, headed by the Pope exercising universal authority. However, the cardinal said that the synodal principle of the Eastern Churches and the primatial principle of the Catholic Church need not be in contradiction.

Cardinal Kasper laid down five challenges for both Churches: purification of historical memory — admitting sins and seeking forgiveness; overcoming mutual ignorance, prejudices and lack of understanding; the mutual exchange of gifts (such as synodality); strengthening cooperation in order to speak with a single voice to secularised Europe; recognising that the path to full community is a spiritual process.

On Monday, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor, the Archbishop of Westminster, urged faith communities to forge a “spiritual humanism of peace”. Speaking on the anniversary of the 11 September terrorist attacks on the United States, the cardinal addressed the fears caused by recent terrorist atrocities in London, saying: “Our task is to challenge the ideology of the crucifier with the faith in the Crucified.”

But he also warned against secularism and resulting social and religious alienation: “Here in France … the doctrine of exclusion of all religion from the public sphere, known as laicité, is increasingly being recognised as inadequate. It is remarkable how far contemporary Europe has shifted in its view, from seeing religion as incompatible with democratic pluralism to a realisation that there cannot be democratic pluralism without a recognition of religion in the public square.”

Social integration needed to be built on foundations open to authentic religion, said the cardinal, adding that secular values were not enough for this task as humanity could not be circumscribed by the material and consequently shut off from the spiritual.

Dr Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, said that one of the most damaging results of 9/11 had been the dividing of the world into two “mythologised” camps. “Each side pretends to believe that all in the other group are of one mind,” he said: “Real dialogue begins in, and is nourished by, a sense of internal dialogue. The deepest form of dialogue goes alongside the questions we ask ourselves. As a Christian, I recognise I am not at one with myself.”

Earlier, the Pope had sent a strong message of encouragement to participants at the three-day meeting, urging all men to have the courage to work energetically for the cause of peace. Violence does not resolve problems, he said; but it complicates the prospects for the future. The only realistic hope for the future, he said, must be based upon peaceful dialogue and negotiated settlement of conflicts. The Sant’Egidio movement is a lay apostolate founded in 1968 which now counts 50,000 members active in 60 countries. It is dedicated to prayer, solidarity, ecumenism, interreligious work, and the pursuit of world peace. The group has been active in mediating several conflicts, particularly in Africa, and has organised interreligious conferences to build upon the “spirit of Assisi” in each year following the 1986 interreligious day of prayer organised there by Pope John Paul II.
Philip Crispin, Lyons

www.thetablet.co.uk

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« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2005, 01:26:32 PM »

Very interesting text.  Smiley

I especially liked this:
Quote
Cardinal Kasper, speaking in a round-table session, said of Catholics and Orthodox: “They are the one Church in different liturgical, theological, spiritual and canonical forms. These differences are legitimate.” He added that obstacles to full communion were both of principle and practice. The Orthodox have concerns regarding the definition of Papal infallibility and this would be addressed by the commission in the autumn, said the cardinal: “The full unity of the Church — East and West — is a hope which will not disappoint.”

However, I did not like the primacy things.
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« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2005, 02:39:05 PM »

CARDINAL Walter Kasper, President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, said this week that the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches were “fundamentally the one Church of Jesus Christ”.


No, this is the worst part.  He can say what he wants, but it isn't reality.
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« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2005, 03:01:14 PM »

Might not be the reality, but it could help the situation greatly.
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« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2005, 06:17:34 PM »

No, this is the worst part.ÂÂ  He can say what he wants, but it isn't reality.

It's sad how some move away from any Ecumencal movement while others just want to open up dialogue. Oh well.

~Victor
« Last Edit: September 16, 2005, 06:19:31 PM by Victor » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2005, 08:05:38 PM »

It's sad how some move away from any Ecumencal movement while others just want to open up dialogue. Oh well.

~Victor

His statement is patently false and misleading.  Proper ecumenism is about actual Communion on actual dogma. 
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« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2005, 09:04:20 PM »

It's sad how some move away from any Ecumencal movement while others just want to open up dialogue. Oh well.

~Victor

 Victor:
 A lot of my RC friends say " the only thing stopping reunion is pride ( on the part of the Orthodox)".
   To even the most liberal RC`s , reunion means for us (Orthodox) to accept the supremacy of the
   Pope.
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« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2005, 10:39:37 AM »

Edit: ...reunion (for RC`s) means for us (Orthodox) to accept the supremacy of the Pope.
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« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2005, 10:49:01 AM »


CARDINAL Walter Kasper, President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, said this week that the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches were “fundamentally the one Church of Jesus Christ”.


Truth always seems to be the first casualty of these discussions.
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« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2005, 12:42:06 PM »

Truth always seems to be the first casualty of these discussions.

Now, ain't THAT the Truth!

 Wink
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« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2005, 04:16:31 PM »

Hey Mo, you know that's a Coptic-style avatar/icon of St. Moses? Grin
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« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2005, 06:56:16 PM »

Yes , I know.I find it very beautiful. For the record, I`m a member of The Bulgarian Diocese,OCA.
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« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2005, 03:33:21 PM »

His statement is patently false and misleading.ÂÂ  Proper ecumenism is about actual Communion on actual dogma.ÂÂ  

False and misleading? Perhaps you read too much into it. My only point is that Rome wants to continue to dialogue. Of course proper ecumenism means one of us gains or loses something. A step foward is to clarify and discuss those things we truly are in agreement and focusing on those we don't. But if the response is that enough time and charity has been given to the Schism then I can only say that I believe in an all powerful God.

In Christ
~Victor
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« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2005, 08:16:41 PM »

Edit: ...reunion (for RC`s) means for us (Orthodox) to accept the supremacy of the Pope.

That's only true to a point.  A fact not generally appreciated is that a lot of what the Pope does he does as Patriarch of the West as opposed to his role as Universal Primate.  If reunion comes, and I pray that it will, you won't find the Pope's presence as imposing as you fear because he won't be your Patriarch.  How imposing will his presence be?  Well, that's what the dialogue is for, in part; to find out what the Pope's role would be in a reunited Church.
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« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2005, 01:48:45 AM »

Victor:
 A lot of my RC friends say " the only thing stopping reunion is pride ( on the part of the Orthodox)".
  ÃƒÆ’‚ To even the most liberal RC`s , reunion means for us (Orthodox) to accept the supremacy of the
  ÃƒÆ’‚ Pope.

Yes the Roman church is so transparent.  Just follow or belong to the pope and all else is negotiable.

JoeS 

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« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2005, 03:46:38 PM »

Yes the Roman church is so transparent.ÂÂ  Just follow or belong to the pope and all else is negotiable.

JoeSÂÂ  


I can only sigh at such remarks.

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« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2005, 09:32:49 PM »

Victor,

     Thanks for the article.  If you don't mind, I went ahead and posted it over at Catholic Answers; I be interested in some of their responses, as well.

God bless,

Chris
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« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2005, 11:41:30 PM »

Quote
CARDINAL Walter Kasper, President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, said this week that the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches were “fundamentally the one Church of Jesus Christ”.

While serving as an excellent sound bite for EWTN news, this rhetoric is, in every practical way, meaningless. The Orthodox Church can and will never accept any definition of the primacy of the Bishop of Rome that grants him either infallibility or ecclesial supremacy. As His Eminence, Metropolitan +Maximos of Pittsburgh has wonderfully written, both for the modern Orthodox Church and the ancient fathers, the apostolic succession and universal ministry belongs to all bishops. Any attempt to arrogate supreme ecclesial authority in one hierarch is contrary to the most basic Orthodox ecclesiology. It is absolutely impossible, and no amount of flowery rhetoric or theological commissions can change that.

And it does seem, I'm sad to say, that for Catholics, papal supremacy is the only issue at hand. If a church will accept papal authority, the Vatican is willing to redefine or rework its theology to suit the new situation. This is not so for Orthodox, whose primary concern is not organizational or ecclesial unity, but unity in faith.
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« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2005, 02:18:14 PM »

Even if Union IS restored (let's just say the Orthodox accept the Pope's primacy), Orthodox laity will form their own churches with names like True Orthodox Church etc.
and many laity will follow these heresies.
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« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2005, 02:19:12 PM »

I mean (sorry for posting twice I'm in a hurry), would you be willing to accept the result of the dialogue even if it would be supporting the RC?
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« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2005, 04:14:16 AM »

Would you be willing to accept the result of the dialogue even if it wasn't supporting the RC?
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« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2005, 06:17:30 AM »

Even if Union IS restored (let's just say the Orthodox accept the Pope's primacy), Orthodox laity will form their own churches with names like True Orthodox Church etc.
and many laity will follow these heresies.

The issue is Papal supremacy, not primacy. I'm sure that you've had this pointed out to you several times before. I doubt very much that you'd find Orthodox laiety forming their own churches either, history seems to show these schismatic groups are formed by clergy.

If some of our heirarchs were to agree to union with an unrepentant Roman Catholic church, complete with all the post-Schism heresies, then I'm sure you're right that many of us would resist (I'd be one of them), but this would not produce heretical or schismatic churches, simply the deposition of heretical heirarchs.

James
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« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2005, 04:25:27 PM »

You realy must keep up. Often it seems that the Orthodox chuch thinks it is  in discussions with the  pre Vatican II Catholic church. Vatican II was a sea change for the Catholic church in many ways.One was the abandonment of triumphalism  which  especialy  effects Ecumenism and christian unity. There will be no great Re-union of the Catholic and Orthodox churches. It will be small steps.Maybe intercommunion between the Catholic church and certain Orthodox churches. more a matter of cordiality among churches rather than actual unity.
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« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2005, 06:14:50 PM »

You realy must keep up. Often it seems that the Orthodox chuch thinks it isÂÂ  in discussions with theÂÂ  pre Vatican II Catholic church. Vatican II was a sea change for the Catholic church in many ways.One was the abandonment of triumphalismÂÂ  whichÂÂ  especialyÂÂ  effects Ecumenism and christian unity. There will be no great Re-union of the Catholic and Orthodox churches. It will be small steps.Maybe intercommunion between the Catholic church and certain Orthodox churches. more a matter of cordiality among churches rather than actual unity.

Although I fear you are right. But I pray for full communion. The Catholic Church has 23 Rites. Most of which are from the East. The largest being Roman. I think the Eastern Catholics will play a role in helping the Western Romans how to see things as the East does.

God be with us all
~Victor
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« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2005, 04:00:26 AM »

There will be no great Re-union of the Catholic and Orthodox churches. It will be small steps.Maybe intercommunion between the Catholic church and certain Orthodox churches. more a matter of cordiality among churches rather than actual unity.

Well, the intercommunion is possible in certain cases - at least after Vaticanum II. If a catholic is staying in a country with no catholic church, he/she can recieve communion in a orthodox church...
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« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2005, 01:28:59 PM »

No he cannot, unless he converts to Orthodoxy.  That is the rules of the Orthodox Church, which apparantly the Catholics don't feel they need to respect. 
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« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2005, 02:42:01 PM »

No he cannot, unless he converts to Orthodoxy.ÂÂ  That is the rules of the Orthodox Church, which apparantly the Catholics don't feel they need to respect.ÂÂ  

To clarify, while the RCC may say it is fine for a RC to commune in an Orthodox Church, this is irrelevant to the Orthodox per above.
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« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2005, 03:20:40 PM »

Not all Orthodox feel the way most on this board do.  The MP gave official sanction to communing RCs in the 60s and did so at least until the Iron Curtain fell.  Melkites and Antiochians commune at each others Churches regularly with the knowledge of the hierarchy of both Churches.
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« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2005, 04:14:20 PM »

MP did what it did then in an era of harch communist infiltration and persecution.  It is pretty sad that you have to look to statements of bishops who lived with guns to their heads daily in order to justify your position.

It is typical of the Vatican in its arrogance to assume its rulings concerning the internal matters of other churches carry any weight. 
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« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2005, 05:01:42 PM »

MP did what it did then in an era of harch communist infiltration and persecution.ÂÂ  It is pretty sad that you have to look to statements of bishops who lived with guns to their heads daily in order to justify your position.

It is typical of the Vatican in its arrogance to assume its rulings concerning the internal matters of other churches carry any weight.ÂÂ  

Sounds as if the MP was invoking economia here on the lifting of communion rules. But it is just that, economia, and that means temporarily allowing something to happen which would not happen in ordinary times.  Economia is issued in extraordinary circumstances and is not to be used as a "normal" function of church practice. 

JoeS
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« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2005, 06:34:43 PM »

The issue is Papal supremacy, not primacy. 

And, I dare say, the issue of Papal supremacy is intimately intertwined in the issue of ecclesiology and the views of the Church.  When "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" is said in the Creed, it means different things to the two different churches - to the Catholics it speaks of one big universal Church (over which the Pope is head) - but to the Orthodox, they hold the ancient understanding of "catholic" which means complete - so for us the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is fully present in each diocese - where the bishop, presbyters, deacons, and the whole of the laity are present together; each diocese is a complete manifestation of the One Church, united in faith to the other diocese through the communion of bishops in synod (which is sealed with the approval of the people in the dioceses).

Until we get over this difference, the Papal supremacy issue won't go away.  But, once we've figured this out, then there are issues of the nature of Communion, theosis, dualistic theology regarding the body...
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« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2005, 01:56:45 AM »

Sounds as if the MP was invoking economia here on the lifting of communion rules. But it is just that, economia, and that means temporarily allowing something to happen which would not happen in ordinary times.ÂÂ  Economia is issued in extraordinary circumstances and is not to be used as a "normal" function of church practice.ÂÂ  

JoeS

Economia makes the intercommunion possible - that`s the point.
When there was not a catholic parish in northern Finnish town called Oulu, the local metropolitan and the catholic bishob of Finland made it possible for the catholichs to recieve communion in the orthodox cathedral of Oulu.
(Finnish orthodox church has autonomy under ecumenical patriarchate)
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« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2005, 10:55:28 AM »

"MP did what it did then in an era of harch communist infiltration and persecution." 

The point being the same economia was not exercised for Protestants, meaning the relationship the Catholic Church has with the Orthodox Church is fundamentally different than that which Protestants have with the Orthodox something usually denied on this board.

"It is pretty sad that you have to look to statements of bishops who lived with guns to their heads daily in order to justify your position."

In case you hadn't noticed I also included the very current practice of the Melkites and Antiochians.  And by the way by the 60's the only bishops with guns to their heads were the Greek Catholics' not the MP's

"It is typical of the Vatican in its arrogance to assume its rulings concerning the internal matters of other churches carry any weight."

Where does this come from?  Where was this stated?  I provided facts of instances of pastoral intercommunion with the knowledge of the hierarcies of both Churches.  Actions speak louder than words. Especailly those of hardliners on either side of the fence.  In point of fact the Catholic hierarchy knows most Orthodox will not commune its members.  It is also very restricitve in allowing its members to seek the Sacraments outside the Catholic Communion.

Fr. Deacon Lance


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« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2005, 11:46:03 AM »

Not all Orthodox feel the way most on this board do.ÂÂ  The MP gave official sanction to communing RCs in the 60s and did so at least until the Iron Curtain fell.ÂÂ  Melkites and Antiochians commune at each others Churches regularly with the knowledge of the hierarchy of both Churches.

Deacon Lance,
I think what we object to in your post, is that you imply that the above two situations are NORMATIVE - as if most Orthodox are 'OK' with the situations.  This looks to be rather disingenuous on your part, and I hope not deliberately.  These two situations are anomalies and cases that SHOULDN'T be happening.
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« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2005, 12:16:55 PM »

Elisha,

"I think what we object to in your post, is that you imply that the above two situations are NORMATIVE - as if most Orthodox are 'OK' with the situations.  This looks to be rather disingenuous on your part, and I hope not deliberately.  These two situations are anomalies and cases that SHOULDN'T be happening."

I did not imply they were normative, I stated they existed and exist.  I do not know if most Orthodox are OK with it but neither do you know that most Orthodox are not OK without.  I suspect the greatest number of both Catholics and Orthodox are indifferent and a small vocal minority on both sides protest such occurences loudly.   I leave it to our hierachs to decide what should and should not be happening.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2005, 01:25:20 PM »

Every time Rome speaks up on "unity" I hear: Blah, Blah, Blah.... Blah, Blah.. Blah... (in Latin).
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« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2005, 06:10:38 PM »

I did not imply they were normative, I stated they existed and exist. I do not know if most Orthodox are OK with it but neither do you know that most Orthodox are not OK without. I suspect the greatest number of both Catholics and Orthodox are indifferent and a small vocal minority on both sides protest such occurences loudly. I leave it to our hierachs to decide what should and should not be happening. 

While I agree with this as an initial reaction, I would temper it with the thought that the whole of the Church must be in agreement before something can go forward; see the reactions of the people to ALL the failed "reunion councils" that happened before the 16th century.  The bishops agreed with the statements (often due to political concerns) - but the people saw the agreements as denying and abandoning the faith - and so they were discarded and moot.

I know it is often spoken of different idealogies between the two churches; a "strict hierarchical" versus "conciliar;" or some will say that the highest authority in the West is the Pope and in the East are the councils; but in the true nature of the Eastern Church's ecclesiology, the Church has no one over her but Christ; the councils and the bishops and the laity are all parts of the body, but none lord over her.  Synods can (and have been) wrong, just as Popes and Patriarchs and laymen.  But when the Church acts as a whole, the work of the Spirit is done.

{edit} the above was in reaction to the statement "I leave it to our hierarchs..." {/edit}
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« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2005, 10:33:03 AM »

"While I agree with this as an initial reaction, I would temper it with the thought that the whole of the Church must be in agreement before something can go forward; see the reactions of the people to ALL the failed "reunion councils" that happened before the 16th century.  The bishops agreed with the statements (often due to political concerns) - but the people saw the agreements as denying and abandoning the faith - and so they were discarded and moot."

Yet the need for Councils and Synods shows this is not so.  Often the whole Church is not in agreement and even a Council does not ensure it. The failed reunion Council of Lyons and Florence I think were more about long held grudges and bigotry.  Not that there were not theological differences but I think it is a stretch to claim this is why the people rejected reunion.  The Greeks rejected reunion with the Franks becasue they were Franks and held them responsible for 1204 as they still do.  Theological differences were a justification for the rejection not the main reason.  If tomorrow Rome and Constantinople procalimed reunion, I bet the majority of the Greek Church would reject it but not because of theology but because of the grudges and bigotry.  With less than 10% of Greeks attending Church on any regualr basis how many could name a theological arguement on why union should not occur?  I would bet very few.  But all would cite 1204 as a reason.  So I am not at all convinved that the Holy Spirit's will is acheived because everyone agrees.  Nicea 1 was convened because the Empire woke up one day and found itself Arian.

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« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2005, 10:45:40 AM »

I'm not specifically saying that the whole of the Church is always in agreement; but the bishops aren't always right, and sometimes it is left to the people to correct; and often times the people aren't right, and its left to the bishops to correct.  We can't hold one set over the others as the beacon of Orthodoxy (in our ecclesiological view) because the Church contains both and needs both to function properly.

On a side note, regarding how "the Greeks held the Franks responsible for 1204" - well, the Franks did invade a Christian nation under the pretenses of gaining territory and "enlightening" the Greeks; and at the time of Ferrara-Florence, the west was unrepentant.  Would you assume full communion with your brother if he shot at you and fatally wounded you but thought there was nothing wrong with it?  We are called to forgive - and we all should - but it doesn't mean we have to endanger the body by accepting ones who would poison it into communion.  The Greeks are far too adept at holding grudges - which is totally wrong - but they cannot be blamed for not accepting the west into communion when the west saw no problem with its actions - actions that hastened the end of the Roman Empire.
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« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2005, 12:03:39 PM »

Elisha,

"I think what we object to in your post, is that you imply that the above two situations are NORMATIVE - as if most Orthodox are 'OK' with the situations.ÂÂ  This looks to be rather disingenuous on your part, and I hope not deliberately.ÂÂ  These two situations are anomalies and cases that SHOULDN'T be happening."

I did not imply they were normative, I stated they existed and exist.  I do not know if most Orthodox are OK with it but neither do you know that most Orthodox are not OK without.  I suspect the greatest number of both Catholics and Orthodox are indifferent and a small vocal minority on both sides protest such occurences loudly.  ÃƒÆ’‚ I leave it to our hierachs to decide what should and should not be happening.

Fr. Deacon Lance

I'm sorry, but it most certainly does look like you implied that they are normative situations.  I really find it hard to believe that you believe that you aren't deliberately stirring the pot here - it sure looks like it.  No, I assure you that most Orthodox who know their faith are NOT ok with these situations.  If you are talking strictly about #'s of adherents when saying they are indifferent, then you can only be referring to uneducated laity that don't know their own faith.  These are the type of people who would say the only difference in our faiths is the Pope, which we all know is patently absurd even if it is statement of ignorance.
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« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2005, 12:43:51 PM »

Elisha,

It is not normative, but it cannot be said to be an anomlay either, not when The biggest Orthodox Church in the world's hierarchy approved it, not when its been going on in the Middle East since the Melkite Unia occured, not when the hierarchy knows and gives at least tacit apporval by not demanding it is stopped.

Personally I would not approach an Orthodox chalice out of respect nor would I advise any to do so.  On the otherhand those who would take the hardline cannot pretend it doesn't happen or challenge their bishops right to allow it to happen because they don't like it.  It is not for the laity, or deacons or priests for that matter, to decide. 

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2005, 01:53:16 PM »

Elisha,

It is not normative, but it cannot be said to be an anomlay either, not when The biggest Orthodox Church in the world's hierarchy approved it, not when its been going on in the Middle East since the Melkite Unia occured, not when the hierarchy knows and gives at least tacit apporval by not demanding it is stopped.

Personally I would not approach an Orthodox chalice out of respect nor would I advise any to do so.ÂÂ  On the otherhand those who would take the hardline cannot pretend it doesn't happen or challenge their bishops right to allow it to happen because they don't like it.ÂÂ  It is not for the laity, or deacons or priests for that matter, to decide.ÂÂ  

Fr. Deacon Lance

I'm sorry, but we just disagree here.  I think cleveland said things best (along with Silouan).  These situations WERE/ARE anomalies, the other Church's hierarchs are NOT happy about, and the laity DOES have the right to challenge the bishop (see cleveland's response re: Florence).  I think you probably need to brush up on your Orthodox Ecclesiology and Theology.
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« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2005, 03:02:16 PM »

I don't want to make it sound like I'm advocating a spiritual democracy (I know no one has yet implied that I do... I just want to pre-empt it) - I am still in favor of the conciliar approach, and the bishops are the ones invested with the trust of the Church to make these decisions, and are the authority to decide the matter of communion; I just wanted us to remember that the decisions of the hierarchy don't stand on their own, and are not "binding" over the Church if the people see that they are incongruent with the faith - if the logic of the hierarchs is faulty, and their position has no theological merit (which is why I brought up Florence) then they will get "called on it."

Again, just speaking pre-emptively in case someone get the wrong impression of my thoughts.
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« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2005, 06:32:39 PM »

Every time Rome speaks up on "unity" I hear: Blah, Blah, Blah.... Blah, Blah.. Blah... (in Latin).

How lovely and charitable of you. You must be low on fuel. Pray, pray and pray.

~Victor
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« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2005, 10:16:42 PM »

Victor,

As I emntioned in a different post, earlier you had mentioend you were working on some answers to these questions. You've had time to post, but I must have missed your answers to the following questions. Please feel free to provide them.

Quote
Quote
Quote from: minasoliman on September 27, 2005, 01:19:43 AM

What of Marcian and Leo, and Marcian's persecution on the non-Chalcedonians? What is "wrong"?

Again, why should we trust the Pope of Rome?

 And what makes today's Pope acceptable to Orthodoxy?

Has he denounced many of the things the early Popes of Rome erred from?

Perhaps, it's easy to denounce and ask forgiveness from the results of the Crusades or inquisitions. But what about Immaculate Conception, the filioque, and the celibacy of priests?

Rome is high in primacy because St. Peter died there?

So it's not even about who "received the keys." It's about where this person died. And why so?

Is there a doctrine or a church father in history that says because St. Peter died there, that therefore it must be highest in honor and primacy?

How is a bishop who is not Roman have the power to bind and loose if the only one with the key is Rome?

 Does another bishop get this power from Rome or Christ?

Does the Holy Spirit give every succession same Apostolic grace except Rome, which is given super-Apostolic grace different from all others?

Why then is Constantinople second?

Is it because St. Andrew, the brother of St. Peter died there?

What about Alexandria?

The nephew of the Primate died there too?

Is this why the first three received honor?

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« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2005, 02:34:36 PM »

I think the Eastern Catholics will play a role in helping the Western Romans how to see things as the East does.

Sorry, no offence intended, but I think that you are either naive or unknowledgable about this.  The truth is that the Latin Church does not listen to the Eastern Catholic Churches when it comes to such matters.  They have gone from seeing the Eastern Catholic Churches as a model for unity to a kind of impediment, partly because the Orthodox see the Eastern Catholics as a major roadblock in negotiations. 

Bob
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« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2005, 07:14:26 PM »

Victor,

As I emntioned in a different post, earlier you had mentioend you were working on some answers to these questions. You've had time to post, but I must have missed your answers to the following questions. Please feel free to provide them.


Chris, it would take chapters to answer some of those questions. And to be honest, seeing as to how I get jumped on when I post anything. I'm starting to not feel comfortable here. Maybe this place isn't for me. Perhaps email or some other forum will be more suitable. PM me.

~Victor
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« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2005, 07:44:32 PM »

Chris, it would take chapters to answer some of those questions. And to be honest, seeing as to how I get jumped on when I post anything. I'm starting to not feel comfortable here. Maybe this place isn't for me. Perhaps email or some other forum will be more suitable. PM me.

~Victor

This is an Orthodox message board - what do you expect?

[changed my typo of 'bored' to 'board']
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« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2005, 07:45:34 PM »

Sorry, no offence intended, but I think that you are either naive or unknowledgable about this.ÂÂ  The truth is that the Latin Church does not listen to the Eastern Catholic Churches when it comes to such matters.ÂÂ  They have gone from seeing the Eastern Catholic Churches as a model for unity to a kind of impediment, partly because the Orthodox see the Eastern Catholics as a major roadblock in negotiations.ÂÂ  

Bob

I think you are right.  I have been studying more about the Eastern Rite, and often I find how much control Rome still holds on to over the Eastern Churches. ÂÂ
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« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2005, 10:12:48 AM »

The truth is the Latin Church has indeed listened to the Eastern Catholics on a great variety of issues.  Many of the reforms of Vatican II were at the suggestion of Eastern Catholic hierarchs.  Even now the Synod of Bishops in Rome ( an Eastern suggestion) hasbeen hearing from Eastern Hierarchs and Latin Hierarchs have been suggesting very Eastern things such as aliturgical Fridays in Lent to name one.

The control the Curia exercise over the Eastern Churches are in direct proportion to the amount of control the Eastern bishops concede.  The Melkites have no time or use for the Curia.  The Ukrainians are getting to that point.  Other Churches it depends.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2005, 06:21:10 PM »

This is an Orthodox message board - what do you expect?

[changed my typo of 'bored' to 'board']

Charity...

~Victor
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« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2005, 12:54:39 AM »

The truth is the Latin Church has indeed listened to the Eastern Catholics on a great variety of issues.ÂÂ

Yes indeed, HAS listened.  Past tense.  As in 40-45 years ago.  I've already mentioned on another board, Deacon Lance, that I disagree with you regarding Melkite autonomy. 

Bob
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« Reply #52 on: October 24, 2005, 04:53:22 PM »

This is an Orthodox message board - what do you expect?

[changed my typo of 'bored' to 'board']

You ought to be an Orthodox Christian posting on a Roman Catholic forum. Now if you want to feel jumped on I know what you feel like.  Hey, when you are in someone elses domain you have to expect this from time to time.  I had to become thick skinned in order to not become discouraged on Catholic forum. 

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« Reply #53 on: October 24, 2005, 05:05:46 PM »

I can only sigh at such remarks.

The Least
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I wasnt trying to be smart about saying what I said.  I have read volumes of ecumenical posts and the overwhelming point that came out of these readings was that most if not all differences that exist between the OC and the RCC can be worked out but first and foremost the OC must consider reconciliation with the Roman church and recognize her as the one true and universal church of God.

Now what message does the Orthodox Christian take away from these posts?  My take?  We can keep all our theology, ie disbelief in the Immaculate Conception, Original Sin, Purgatory, Essence/Energies, even our belief in divorce and the like as long as we recognize the pope as Supreme and Infallible.

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« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2005, 12:03:59 AM »

I do not know if most Orthodox are OK with it but neither do you know that most Orthodox are not OK without.  I suspect the greatest number of both Catholics and Orthodox are indifferent and a small vocal minority on both sides protest such occurences loudly.  ÃƒÆ’‚ I leave it to our hierachs to decide what should and should not be happening.

Fr. Deacon Lance

You have said it perfectly!! Many are indifferent and Most Orthodox I know are very okay with it.  This is based on several factors that I will mention:

1. The brutal truth about day to day church operations: First, having been involved in Orthodox parish leadership ministries, such as parish council, they have learned some brutal truths that much of the spirit of Orthodox Christianity  is not necessarily embodied in church life outside of the Divine Liturgy. Talk about nasty church politics, underhanded dealings, you name it. People hate organized religion for these things.. and 'unorganized' organized religion, such as Orthodoxy, is susceptible even more...The hierarchs are spiritual leaders but not administrative heads... and that's where it all falls apart.  The closer you get to really learning about how a parish is run, the more you want to run away from it all...Because the Orthodox church is poor, some clergy will bend over backwards for anyone, crook or not, to await a potential handout of property for the church.  I am a firsthand witness to this, so I know what I'm talking about here.   For some of the more devout Orthodox I know who decided to volunteer more time to their church, they received a rude awakening that it operates on the day to day not in keeping with some of the basic principles of Christian honesty. Financial conflicts of interest pervade some councils and surprisingly  even the new GOA Uniform Parish Regulations, do not even set guidelines for such matters.  So, the first point is, this 'pure Orthodox Christian faith' is not practiced from top to bottom in parish administration.  The example is not even set for others to follow.  So the result: people don't see what the point of standing on ceremony on some matters of dogma are when at the same time the faith on the whole is sold down the river  for a hope of 10 acres of land to be donated by a despicable mafia type  land baron who intimidates all he comes in contact with, frightening people away from the church( like 20% left !).   And the clergy and hierarch bend over backwards for this person while he steps on the little people in the church..  This is just an example of what has become  common operations in the church... So, sadly, net net, the church leadership have  lost the their influence on the congregation...and they are not taken seriously...  The current belief of many  is that all of this stuff that causes animosity is nonsense. While differences between the churches may be real, in reality the differences are meaningless in the way the church operates.   

2. Interchristian Marriage:  In the US 70% of marriages that take place in the Orthodox church are interChristian. Basically that means that over time, most of the congregation consists of families that are day to day dealing with reconciling differences between the faiths.   All of the Orthodox families I know are interchristian, most  are Orthodox-Catholic, & they all pray for the day when the churches allow intercommunion. 

3. Which ministries mean the most to people:  In the GOA it's the Greek school and Greek dance groups.  Try to start a parish based on offering the Divine Liturgy and Sunday School and you won't get very far... ( I know that from experience)  Many just send their kids to these Greek ministries  and don't even go to church on Sunday.  So, they could care less if Roman Catholics received communion in the church.. because they don't even go.   Any resistance to a sudden 'merger' of the churches is based somewhat on pride and also  on a fear that the church will lose it's Greek offerings...

 In the end I believe the  formal re-unification process is by very small baby steps over time, so egos are not disturbed, and the comfort levels of all will be maintained.  Informally, it's already happened in the home..

In XC, Kizzy
 


 
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« Reply #55 on: November 03, 2005, 08:48:42 AM »


I think Kizzy's post was the most thought provoking in this entire thread.  Reunion *is* already happening at the level of families (at least, here in the U.S.) because of intermarriage of Catholics and Orthodox.  And, in order to maintain family unity and love, people are agreeing to disagree and to love and respect each other despite their formal religious differences.  And that is practical ecumenism and living the Gospel: to love one's neighbor, especially in one's own home.  It is not perfect reunion; but it is laying the groundwork for reunion, which is love.

As for the "big" issues . . . they are real, but they just don't seem to be that important in the lives of ordinary people. 

For example, a lot of American Catholics,  really *don't* believe in papal supremacy and infallibility.  Instead, they regard the pope as the leader of the Catholics and as a kind of first among equals of all bishops.  That change happened, in my opinion, when the papacy issued its condemnation of artificial birth control.  Most Catholics rejected (and continue to reject) the birth control teaching as ludicrous.  That plus other factors have led many Catholics to downgrade their view of the pope from a previous view as a supreme, infallible leader.  Instead, most Catholics (at least, here in America) regard the pope as the leader of their religion who is nevertheless quite fallible; and, they see the pope as potentially a symbol of unity among all Christians.  Most Catholics, however, don't say so in public because the "official" teaching is otherwise.  But, when you talk with ordinary American Catholics --perhaps those who don't go to internet chat rooms-- what I described is the general view.  And so, at least on the issue of the papacy, there is a real opportunity for Catholics and Orthodox to draw closer because a lot of lay Catholics are already close to the Orthodox view of things. 

The bishops and theologians can have their meetings; that is important.  But the real movement for reunion (at least, in the U.S.) is happening among the laity.  And, it could happen much more, if handled properly. 

I think the real issue, regarding reunion, for most Catholics in America is simple ignorance.  A lot of Catholics in the U.S. simply do not know of the *existence* of the Orthodox Church.  Many others know it exists, but they know nothing or almost nothing about it.  In this ignorance, there is a real opportunity for the Orthodox to educate Catholics about their religion and to draw closer with each other -- if the Orthodox want that and if they do so from love.
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« Reply #56 on: November 03, 2005, 12:42:01 PM »

2. Interchristian Marriage:  In the US 70% of marriages that take place in the Orthodox church are interChristian. Basically that means that over time, most of the congregation consists of families that are day to day dealing with reconciling differences between the faiths.  ÃƒÆ’‚ All of the Orthodox families I know are interchristian, most  are Orthodox-Catholic, & they all pray for the day when the churches allow intercommunion.  



I have a hard time believing this.  Maybe in the GOA, but I don't think it is so high elsewhere.
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« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2005, 01:46:00 PM »

Everyone pleez relax on attacking the GOA. Ok so this stuff is true. At my parish which is pretty new, most of the youth come to church on christmas, pascha, and maybe 3 other times of the year...I don't know the priest doesn't say anything....and yes the youth do come on Wednesdays for 2 hours to spend dancing and 4 hours on saturday morning learning the greek. But I know tons of churches downtown who have very dedicated youth who come to bible studies and go to meleti (spiritual talks) and attend liturgy regularly.

This doesn't just happen in the GOA. It's in the Serbian and Antiochian church too but these churches (esp) national churches like the Serbian, Ukrainian etc are a loooot smaller than the GOA.

I find that at the older parishes, and ones which have a very zealous priest, the youth thrive. when the priest turns a blind eye or doesn't have the energy (because he has to be an accountant, a businessman, and a seminarian teacher most of the time) or zeal to encourage ppl, ppl just don't care anymore.

It's not all the priest, but he has a lot to do with it.
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« Reply #58 on: November 03, 2005, 01:55:55 PM »

Very interesting, Arjuna. 

Bob
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« Reply #59 on: November 03, 2005, 02:11:49 PM »

I also find arjuna's post pretty much on the mark...

Bob, how bout smoking some of them walleye fillets & sending a few to So.Cal...they are rare out here.

james
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« Reply #60 on: November 06, 2005, 11:41:17 PM »

I have a hard time believing this.ÂÂ  Maybe in the GOA, but I don't think it is so high elsewhere.

The statistics are from the GOA yearbook, which can be accessed from their website, which includes a year by year historical account of marriages in the church. Note, the church is unable to record marriages of orthodoxthat take place outside of the church...it only records those that take place in their GOA churches.  Hence, considering that there are Orthodox people marrying in the Catholic church, etc.,. the statistics of inter-christian marriages of Orthodox is actually even higher. This trend is what lead to the establishment of the Department of Marriage in the GOA, with a special ministry focused on intermarriage.   The OCA does not include their stats on their website, so it cannot be understood for that jurisdiction.  However, my personal experience in the OCA churches has shown that a good number of interfaith parishioners turned there as   the local GO and Russian churches were too 'ethnic' and the OCA was a place where the non-Orthodox/non-ethnic  spouse could feel comfortable.  Some end up converting, but many do not.  Since the GOA is the largest in the US, their statistics are important as far as understanding what Orthodox of today may believe in terms of union.     

I also note that it is true as it was posted by Arjuna that American Catholics do not consider the Pope as their infallible leader.  I have had discussions with RC's and have found this to be true.  And the birth control issue is a big one... note not too many Catholics these days have 10 kids... and I have to believe they all don't believe they are not going to heaven just because of this.   In the end, the argument over union is between hierarchs on both sides, many who have lost the faith of their flocks... and the flocks are finding ways to cope.   To some degree I think of it as akin to divorced spouses arguing over getting together, while their children have found a way to keep the family whole.


In XC, Kizzy

 
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« Reply #61 on: November 07, 2005, 02:53:58 AM »

  ÃƒÆ’‚Â

I also note that it is true as it was posted by Arjuna that American Catholics do not consider the Pope as their infallible leader.ÂÂ  I have had discussions with RC's and have found this to be true.ÂÂ  And the birth control issue is a big one...

 

Same kind of thoughts are more than common also among Scandinavian catholics...
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« Reply #62 on: November 09, 2005, 02:11:10 PM »

Let us go back to the basis in the catholic-orthodox talks:
"What unites us is much stronger than what separates us." HH bishop of Rome and patriach of All the West John XXIII
Does the orthodox sisters and brothers share this?!?
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« Reply #63 on: November 09, 2005, 02:57:06 PM »

Bob, how bout smoking some of them walleye fillets & sending a few to So.Cal...they are rare out here.

Hey, you bet James!  Coming right up.   Wink
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Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
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