Author Topic: "SILENCE" (The movie)  (Read 3386 times)

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Offline minasoliman

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2017, 10:52:09 PM »
Nothing more needs to be said.
I dunno Mor, I find your view to be self-serving. Do you know what Paul urges us to do? Put love before "faith", which seems to be the point Scorcese makes in the film (BTW I haven't seen it yet but this seems to be the source of the controversy).

This reminds me of Abraham and Isaac. Abraham should have told God "no" when commanded to sacrifice his son, that love comes before acting on faith in accordance to some divine plan that involved the murder of his own son. That would have pleased God immensely but instead Abraham failed the test, and God grits his teeth and praises his "faith."

And regarding the gospel, the only thing that counts is the transformation into a loving person. And if God's love can transform us into loving people if we accept that it can (and we can't by our force or will), then virtues will emerge out of the loving self that include caring for others even if that means losing one's life.

Which is all the reason why what you posted in response to Gebre makes you look rather morally obtuse. It's baffling to me that keeping some theological propristional statement matters more in spite of others who you could have saved, if you were in the same situation.

Go back to Matthew 25 where Jesus asks only one question: how did you treat the poor, the weak and the oppressed?

I thought Gebre's question was thoughtful and good for Scorsese making a film that challenges doctrinal Christians to ask the sort of questions he does.

You're cherry picking bro!  No one denies love before faith, but your interpretation of it is flawed.  St. Paul himself praises the faith of Abraham, and Christ makes the love of God a priority before anything else, including the love of self.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline RobS

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #46 on: June 04, 2017, 11:00:24 PM »
My view is self-serving only in the sense that I don't want to waste my time.  You have already made it clear that you reject "the basic premises of doctrinal Christianity of every sort and every denomination, including" mine, and would rather talk about your own Christianity.  But your Christianity is a lie.
I only do so because I think the gospel is enough.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Offline RobS

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #47 on: June 04, 2017, 11:22:24 PM »
Nothing more needs to be said.
I dunno Mor, I find your view to be self-serving. Do you know what Paul urges us to do? Put love before "faith", which seems to be the point Scorcese makes in the film (BTW I haven't seen it yet but this seems to be the source of the controversy).

This reminds me of Abraham and Isaac. Abraham should have told God "no" when commanded to sacrifice his son, that love comes before acting on faith in accordance to some divine plan that involved the murder of his own son. That would have pleased God immensely but instead Abraham failed the test, and God grits his teeth and praises his "faith."

And regarding the gospel, the only thing that counts is the transformation into a loving person. And if God's love can transform us into loving people if we accept that it can (and we can't by our force or will), then virtues will emerge out of the loving self that include caring for others even if that means losing one's life.

Which is all the reason why what you posted in response to Gebre makes you look rather morally obtuse. It's baffling to me that keeping some theological propristional statement matters more in spite of others who you could have saved, if you were in the same situation.

Go back to Matthew 25 where Jesus asks only one question: how did you treat the poor, the weak and the oppressed?

I thought Gebre's question was thoughtful and good for Scorsese making a film that challenges doctrinal Christians to ask the sort of questions he does.

You're cherry picking bro!  No one denies love before faith, but your interpretation of it is flawed.  St. Paul himself praises the faith of Abraham, and Christ makes the love of God a priority before anything else, including the love of self.
Well the issue is with Mor placing "faith" above love and what flows from it is more self-involvement and against the loving persons Christians are. This is the existential problem that the gospel
addresses, the conflict between self and the ability to love others. Just as other religions focus on other problems (suffering, disorder, injustice, the unknown causes of misfortune, etc.).

Is Christianity really about not renouncing a set of true propositions about God which if you "believe" it make you a Christian rather than saving those out of the love we have for our neighbors? Really the stuff you and Mor post come from the sad legacy of Nicea and thereafter, thinking the right thoughts about God which this right thinking qualifies you for salvation.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Offline ialmisry

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2017, 12:41:42 AM »
Nothing more needs to be said.
I dunno Mor, I find your view to be self-serving. Do you know what Paul urges us to do? Put love before "faith", which seems to be the point Scorcese makes in the film (BTW I haven't seen it yet but this seems to be the source of the controversy).

This reminds me of Abraham and Isaac. Abraham should have told God "no" when commanded to sacrifice his son, that love comes before acting on faith in accordance to some divine plan that involved the murder of his own son. That would have pleased God immensely but instead Abraham failed the test, and God grits his teeth and praises his "faith."

And regarding the gospel, the only thing that counts is the transformation into a loving person. And if God's love can transform us into loving people if we accept that it can (and we can't by our force or will), then virtues will emerge out of the loving self that include caring for others even if that means losing one's life.

Which is all the reason why what you posted in response to Gebre makes you look rather morally obtuse. It's baffling to me that keeping some theological propristional statement matters more in spite of others who you could have saved, if you were in the same situation.

Go back to Matthew 25 where Jesus asks only one question: how did you treat the poor, the weak and the oppressed?

I thought Gebre's question was thoughtful and good for Scorsese making a film that challenges doctrinal Christians to ask the sort of questions he does.

You're cherry picking bro!  No one denies love before faith, but your interpretation of it is flawed.  St. Paul himself praises the faith of Abraham, and Christ makes the love of God a priority before anything else, including the love of self.
Well the issue is with Mor placing "faith" above love and what flows from it is more self-involvement and against the loving persons Christians are. This is the existential problem that the gospel
addresses, the conflict between self and the ability to love others. Just as other religions focus on other problems (suffering, disorder, injustice, the unknown causes of misfortune, etc.).

Is Christianity really about not renouncing a set of true propositions about God which if you "believe" it make you a Christian rather than saving those out of the love we have for our neighbors? Really the stuff you and Mor post come from the sad legacy of Nicea and thereafter, thinking the right thoughts about God which this right thinking qualifies you for salvation.
Spreading false witness about God-i.e. non-Nicean notions-is not to love Him.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Iconodule

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #49 on: June 05, 2017, 06:21:16 AM »
My view is self-serving only in the sense that I don't want to waste my time.  You have already made it clear that you reject "the basic premises of doctrinal Christianity of every sort and every denomination, including" mine, and would rather talk about your own Christianity.  But your Christianity is a lie.
I only do so because I think the gospel is enough.

So edgy
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline minasoliman

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #50 on: June 05, 2017, 10:27:03 AM »
Nothing more needs to be said.
I dunno Mor, I find your view to be self-serving. Do you know what Paul urges us to do? Put love before "faith", which seems to be the point Scorcese makes in the film (BTW I haven't seen it yet but this seems to be the source of the controversy).

This reminds me of Abraham and Isaac. Abraham should have told God "no" when commanded to sacrifice his son, that love comes before acting on faith in accordance to some divine plan that involved the murder of his own son. That would have pleased God immensely but instead Abraham failed the test, and God grits his teeth and praises his "faith."

And regarding the gospel, the only thing that counts is the transformation into a loving person. And if God's love can transform us into loving people if we accept that it can (and we can't by our force or will), then virtues will emerge out of the loving self that include caring for others even if that means losing one's life.

Which is all the reason why what you posted in response to Gebre makes you look rather morally obtuse. It's baffling to me that keeping some theological propristional statement matters more in spite of others who you could have saved, if you were in the same situation.

Go back to Matthew 25 where Jesus asks only one question: how did you treat the poor, the weak and the oppressed?

I thought Gebre's question was thoughtful and good for Scorsese making a film that challenges doctrinal Christians to ask the sort of questions he does.

You're cherry picking bro!  No one denies love before faith, but your interpretation of it is flawed.  St. Paul himself praises the faith of Abraham, and Christ makes the love of God a priority before anything else, including the love of self.
Well the issue is with Mor placing "faith" above love and what flows from it is more self-involvement and against the loving persons Christians are. This is the existential problem that the gospel
addresses, the conflict between self and the ability to love others. Just as other religions focus on other problems (suffering, disorder, injustice, the unknown causes of misfortune, etc.).

Is Christianity really about not renouncing a set of true propositions about God which if you "believe" it make you a Christian rather than saving those out of the love we have for our neighbors? Really the stuff you and Mor post come from the sad legacy of Nicea and thereafter, thinking the right thoughts about God which this right thinking qualifies you for salvation.

Actually, waaaaaay before Nicea, we had other theologians who you'd probably be disappointed in as well.

What is love without eternity, without the sacrificed God? A dream, a nice story, an illusion.

You choose parts of the New Testament to favor your own illusion, and you don't want to deal with the meatier parts of the same sources you claim to uphold.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 10:28:09 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2017, 11:26:24 AM »
You're cherry picking bro!  No one denies love before faith, but your interpretation of it is flawed.  St. Paul himself praises the faith of Abraham, and Christ makes the love of God a priority before anything else, including the love of self.

Nothing has a rather unique take on the Abraham story which totally doesn't match anything anywhere in the Scriptures, so I doubt St Paul is going to make a difference. 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2017, 11:37:43 AM »
Well the issue is with Mor placing "faith" above love...

Where exactly do I do that?

Quote
Is Christianity really about not renouncing a set of true propositions about God which if you "believe" it make you a Christian rather than saving those out of the love we have for our neighbors?

You have a couple of problems.  First, you divorce (your notion of) love from faith and other virtues.  Second, you reduce faith to "a set of true propositions about God which if you 'believe' it make you a Christian", demonstrating you understand neither faith nor belief.  Since you enter these discussions categorically rejecting everything we believe, it's useless to do anything more than point out the difference.

Quote
Really the stuff you and Mor post come from the sad legacy of Nicea and thereafter, thinking the right thoughts about God which this right thinking qualifies you for salvation.

The Nicene Fathers struggled and suffered for their faith.  You upload animated avatars once in a while.  The Fathers have earned my trust. 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline RobS

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2017, 07:41:29 PM »
Actually, waaaaaay before Nicea, we had other theologians who you'd probably be disappointed in as well.

What is love without eternity, without the sacrificed God? A dream, a nice story, an illusion.

You choose parts of the New Testament to favor your own illusion, and you don't want to deal with the meatier parts of the same sources you claim to uphold.
As I said before the whole purpose of the gospel is to be a loving person, that means caring about people now, and care about what will happen to future generations. Whether that involves an afterlife or not, is something for each person to decide. It's beyond empirical knowledge. So I reject your dubious "love without eternity" claim.

I just don't see how an afterlife enhances or detracts from an ethics of care. If there is an afterlife, it belongs to someone else because it wouldn't be me, since who I am is finite.

I'm not sure what you mean by "favoring my own illusion", the gospel narrative is enough. Are you ashamed of it, mina? Is it not enough?
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Offline RobS

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #54 on: June 05, 2017, 07:45:41 PM »
You're cherry picking bro!  No one denies love before faith, but your interpretation of it is flawed.  St. Paul himself praises the faith of Abraham, and Christ makes the love of God a priority before anything else, including the love of self.

Nothing has a rather unique take on the Abraham story which totally doesn't match anything anywhere in the Scriptures, so I doubt St Paul is going to make a difference.
You don't think the binding of Isaac is highly ironic? Well that doesn't surprise me since the point is orthodoxy doesn't it take it ironically.

Would you honestly praise a flesh-and-blood father who tried to sacrifice his son because God told him?

I would arrest him.

And if that God asked me, I'd tell him he's revolting. In the empirical world. Not in the world of stories.

What's would be your honest reaction to the sacrifice of Isaac if it wasn't a story, but an occurrence happening in front of you?

I would hope you'd try to stop that creep Abraham, not praise him as a man of faith.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 07:45:58 PM by nothing »
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Offline minasoliman

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2017, 07:47:44 PM »
Actually, I'm not ashamed of the gospel at all.  Your secular reading of the gospel narrative makes you ashamed of it.  You just happen to fit in with all your atheist friends who see your interpretation as valid in their eyes.  When atheists like you shame us for believing in the crucified and risen Christ as the foundation of our love and deification, it's not us who are ashamed.  You happen to make yourself convenient and inconsistent for your own personal opinions.

And then you try to troll us and say we are ashamed?  A hearty "lol" to that suggestion.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 07:47:54 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline RobS

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2017, 08:13:27 PM »
Where exactly do I do that?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71560.msg1459206.html#msg1459206

Quote
You have a couple of problems.  First, you divorce (your notion of) love from faith and other virtues.  Second, you reduce faith to "a set of true propositions about God which if you 'believe' it make you a Christian", demonstrating you understand neither faith nor belief.  Since you enter these discussions categorically rejecting everything we believe, it's useless to do anything more than point out the difference.
Faith isn't doctrine, Mor. I think it's fair to say faith is a differentiated social/discursive phenomenon and doesn't have a unitary meaning.

In the context of religion, don't we usually mean the acceptance of the efficacy of forces in our lives which are beyond the possibility of empirical description or confirmation; indeed often contrary to our empirical knowledge?

To me faith is exactly that - the acceptance, despite all empirical evidence, that God's love can transform us, and the symbol of that is the resurrection, which "occurred" but not as you say it occurred, not as an event in the universe.

I have faith that in some way I can't possibly understand that "occurrence". But that faith is ineffable. It can't be stated. It is unthinkable.

Also I don't rely on what people say they believe but rather how they actually act when a belief is at stake, which again seems to be what Scorcese is interested in.

And Mor, it is the honesty of real live situations we find our real beliefs, not in expressions of ideas where nothing is at stake.

The way I use belief is more in the sense of an episteme, a way of understanding the world available to a culture at a particular time.

We don't as modern people understand the world as governed by miracles. For example my car recently needed repairs, did I drive it to a priest so he could pray over it or spinkle some holy water over it? No I took it to my mechanic who followed specs for the repair work. Cars aren't fixed by miracles.

Of course it's possible for you to reject this episteme, kinda like the way creationists do, but that only shows that the episteme is dominant. The miracle-naturalism dynamic is only possible when those two views are in opposition, as they weren't in antiquity or the early modern period.

I do think Orthodoxy has a bit of dishonesty to it, or maybe better put, a conflict with modern existence.  The vast majority of modern Christians live their lives in accordance with science, even if they insist they believe in miracles either in the past or the present.

They don't live out those beliefs in practice.

And when it comes to God, I don't "believe" in God, period. The question is meaningless, since a belief can only relate to the empirical. What I do is accept the gospel, which is a story about God, as a means to salvation, which is to my mind a transformation into a loving person.

It is by exploring the transcendence of God that we can understand who we are, and more important perhaps, who we should become.

Quote
The Nicene Fathers struggled and suffered for their faith.  You upload animated avatars once in a while.  The Fathers have earned my trust.

I would take everything the Nicene Council did and put it in a museum of intolerance and stupidity. They didn't even have the courage of their own convictions that the gospel itself saves.

It was a sad day for Christianity when the Nicaea Council decreed that to qualify as a Christian you not only have to pretend to understand an incomprehensible idea, you have to lie in public and proclaim that in fact you believe it.

The irony that a religion whose scriptures emphasis peace, helping neighbors and strangers, empathizing with the down-trodden, became an ideology used in conquest and exploitation.

Sadly, it appears even the power of God can't overcome the power or ideology and self-serving rationalization.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Offline RobS

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2017, 08:29:44 PM »
Actually, I'm not ashamed of the gospel at all.  Your secular reading of the gospel narrative makes you ashamed of it.  You just happen to fit in with all your atheist friends who see your interpretation as valid in their eyes.  When atheists like you shame us for believing in the crucified and risen Christ as the foundation of our love and deification, it's not us who are ashamed.  You happen to make yourself convenient and inconsistent for your own personal opinions.

And then you try to troll us and say we are ashamed?  A hearty "lol" to that suggestion.

I'm not an atheist though, the problem atheists have is they never inquire into the way God doesn't exist.

And yes I do think you are ashamed of it. You just don't think the gospel is enough. So you have all these incoherent theological supplements to it where these mean-spirited flailing hack theologians try to force people to think the way they want them to think about God - as if that means anything.

As if God cares about the way you think about him (and how can anyone think right thoughts about a transcendent being?), as opposed to what kind of person you want to be.

I'm glad Paul contradicts all of that doctrinal garbage: Galatians 6:15. That new creation isn't some spirit living forever, it's a loving person, the greatest miracle possible. 1 Corinthians 13.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2017, 08:43:51 PM »

As if God cares about the way you think about him (and how can anyone think right thoughts about a transcendent being?), as opposed to what kind of person you want to be.


I believe He does care.  Does He need our adoration in order to survive?  No.  But, WE need it...and inasmuch as He cares for us, He cares that what we think of Him, as our thoughts define our beings, our beliefs, morals, etc....and our thought patterns are pivotal to our very salvation.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline minasoliman

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2017, 09:16:20 PM »
Actually, I'm not ashamed of the gospel at all.  Your secular reading of the gospel narrative makes you ashamed of it.  You just happen to fit in with all your atheist friends who see your interpretation as valid in their eyes.  When atheists like you shame us for believing in the crucified and risen Christ as the foundation of our love and deification, it's not us who are ashamed.  You happen to make yourself convenient and inconsistent for your own personal opinions.

And then you try to troll us and say we are ashamed?  A hearty "lol" to that suggestion.

I'm not an atheist though, the problem atheists have is they never inquire into the way God doesn't exist.

And yes I do think you are ashamed of it. You just don't think the gospel is enough. So you have all these incoherent theological supplements to it where these mean-spirited flailing hack theologians try to force people to think the way they want them to think about God - as if that means anything.

As if God cares about the way you think about him (and how can anyone think right thoughts about a transcendent being?), as opposed to what kind of person you want to be.

I'm glad Paul contradicts all of that doctrinal garbage: Galatians 6:15. That new creation isn't some spirit living forever, it's a loving person, the greatest miracle possible. 1 Corinthians 13.

Don't you care about context and integrity of what you read?  For instance you quote 1 Corinthians 13, but you ignore what the same author writes two chapter later, the source of all his ministry and writings about morals and love.  In the same chapter in Galatians 6, you skipped over the crucified Christ who becomes the central focus of why he says what he says in verse 15.

How can I be ashamed when you conveniently skip over those.  The gospel IS ENOUGH, because it's not just a text.  The gospel is Christ crucified and risen.  That's what Paul keeps repeating left and write.

You can say whatever you want about me.  I'm doing no different to you after all.  But essentially, no one needs to believe in God to appreciate the few select verses that you consider "gospel".  Your problem is you don't inquire in the way all things will cease to exist, even if you don't take your life for granted.  It's a pitiful existence, and atheists have enough integrity to accept that. You do too, but the only difference, you feel it necessary to believe in a god divorced from communion and participation in our death and resurrection.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2017, 09:18:49 PM »
If there is an afterlife, it belongs to someone else because it wouldn't be me, since who I am is finite.

You have a beginning, yes, but you were created for immortality.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2017, 09:23:42 PM »
^^^I want to add to that because I anticipate nothing will reply something along the lines of some selfish want of life forever as if it's some sort of reward.

We were made for communion with God.  Nothing quotes 1 Corinthians 13.  What better example is there for that whole chapter that can be found than God?  Essentially, we were made out of His love in His love for His love.  That's what "immortality" means.  Love is sacrificial.  It's the giving of yourself to another fully and completely.  God does this in His Son, Christ, who through His death gives us all of His divine self to us.  That's what immortality really means.  It is the uncreated love of God offered to us in the form of man.  (Ephesians 3)

So I believe in Love, who grounds us in being the type of love we become to others and to Christ.

God no longer becomes Love if I cease to exist.  He doesn't truly Love us and created us to vanity.  At that point, there is no point in returning love back to that God who doesn't love us first in His own eternal way, and functionally this becomes atheistic.  Even Islam is atheistic in that sense because God is not love in their theology.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 09:27:33 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2017, 11:08:39 PM »
Actually, waaaaaay before Nicea, we had other theologians who you'd probably be disappointed in as well.

What is love without eternity, without the sacrificed God? A dream, a nice story, an illusion.

You choose parts of the New Testament to favor your own illusion, and you don't want to deal with the meatier parts of the same sources you claim to uphold.
As I said before the whole purpose of the gospel is to be a loving person, that means caring about people now, and care about what will happen to future generations. Whether that involves an afterlife or not, is something for each person to decide. It's beyond empirical knowledge. So I reject your dubious "love without eternity" claim.

I just don't see how an afterlife enhances or detracts from an ethics of care. If there is an afterlife, it belongs to someone else because it wouldn't be me, since who I am is finite.

I'm not sure what you mean by "favoring my own illusion", the gospel narrative is enough. Are you ashamed of it, mina? Is it not enough?

I don't know what "the gospel narrative" would be, but the Gospel is eternal life, words found almost fifty times in the Evangelists.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2017, 11:11:04 PM »
Needless to say, there's an almost equal number of times hearers are called to give up their present lives, but recognizing your allergy I won't go on.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2017, 11:21:47 PM »
By the way, Nothing, this proclamation that Christianity must forswear its belief in order to make way for an "ethics of love" was developed in the Sixties (yes, by men your grandpa's age -- do you still feel fashionable?) and was quickly absorbed by the so-called mainline denominations in America. Because -- as you always warn the Orthodox -- this was the way forward, the way to survive the rising skepticism: youths raised on science would never attend church, much less seminary, if "believing" that Christianity and its scriptures were true were not sacrificed to a winking "beloving." And as fast as the new theology swept mainline denominational institutions, just as fast they lost their membership, which declined almost 70% in a few decades.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #65 on: June 07, 2017, 06:32:57 PM »
[
Like Black Robe before it, this film did not shy away from examining the flaws of both the European missionaries and their culture and those of the culture they were attempting to evangelize.


[/quote]
 The Black Robe is one of my favourite movies.  I remember reading "The Jesuit Relations" in a Canadian History course.   I look forward to buying "Silence" on dvd.  Glad I don't have to read the book to appreciate the movie.

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2017, 06:48:07 PM »
Yeah, they're both good flicks.
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #67 on: June 10, 2017, 02:09:47 AM »
Good review from Bishop Robert Barron:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Th7Tiz1cEk


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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #68 on: June 10, 2017, 12:52:57 PM »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #69 on: June 12, 2017, 09:50:47 AM »
You're cherry picking bro!  No one denies love before faith, but your interpretation of it is flawed.  St. Paul himself praises the faith of Abraham, and Christ makes the love of God a priority before anything else, including the love of self.

Nothing has a rather unique take on the Abraham story which totally doesn't match anything anywhere in the Scriptures, so I doubt St Paul is going to make a difference.
You don't think the binding of Isaac is highly ironic? Well that doesn't surprise me since the point is orthodoxy doesn't it take it ironically.

Would you honestly praise a flesh-and-blood father who tried to sacrifice his son because God told him?

I would arrest him.

And if that God asked me, I'd tell him he's revolting. In the empirical world. Not in the world of stories.

What's would be your honest reaction to the sacrifice of Isaac if it wasn't a story, but an occurrence happening in front of you?

I would hope you'd try to stop that creep Abraham, not praise him as a man of faith.

"Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."  Matthew 10:37

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #70 on: June 12, 2017, 10:39:22 AM »
"Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen." [I John 4:20]

I think St. John the Evangelist may give us an answer here. If we are willing to allow our human brothers and sisters to suffer and be killed in order to preserve the ideal of Orthodoxy then we may be guilty of superstition rather than faith. Again, I don't know the answer with any certainty. I am only inclined to think that sacrificing our own lives without committing an act of outward apostasy is certainly a noble act of martyrdom, but to relinquish others to torture and death when we could save them without violence to anyone else just seems to be a violation of the Gospel rather than a witness to the Gospel. But God alone knows the human heart, so I can't pass judgment.

Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #71 on: June 12, 2017, 11:09:31 AM »
1 John 4:20 does not say anything you think at all.

I think Gebre, you need to read more of the lives of the martyrs to get a perspective of the definition of love.  Does love entail removing someone's deified life support for the sake of living in death?

Can you be a "gebre Menfes Kiddus" if you deny the Menfes Kiddus?

Matthew 10:33
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 11:11:15 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #72 on: June 12, 2017, 11:29:02 AM »
1 John 4:20 does not say anything you think at all.

I think Gebre, you need to read more of the lives of the martyrs to get a perspective of the definition of love.  Does love entail removing someone's deified life support for the sake of living in death?

Can you be a "gebre Menfes Kiddus" if you deny the Menfes Kiddus?

Matthew 10:33

Again, I'm merely posing questions not making pronouncements. But it is interesting that many of the people here who would condemn priests for outwardly apostatizing in order to save innocent human lives also praise soldiers who kill to save lives. I have my opinion about which is the greater apostasy. But perhaps they are both acts of apostasy. What I do know is that I wouldn't want much to do with a religion whose representatives violently sacrificed my life or the life of my wife and children in order to uphold an outward appearance of Orthodoxy.

Selam
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 11:29:34 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #73 on: June 12, 2017, 11:41:17 AM »
An additional interesting review of Silence, the novel:  https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2014/07/14/the-sinister-theology-of-endos-silence/

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #74 on: June 12, 2017, 11:45:59 AM »
"Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen." [I John 4:20]

I think St. John the Evangelist may give us an answer here. If we are willing to allow our human brothers and sisters to suffer and be killed in order to preserve the ideal of Orthodoxy then we may be guilty of superstition rather than faith. Again, I don't know the answer with any certainty. I am only inclined to think that sacrificing our own lives without committing an act of outward apostasy is certainly a noble act of martyrdom, but to relinquish others to torture and death when we could save them without violence to anyone else just seems to be a violation of the Gospel rather than a witness to the Gospel. But God alone knows the human heart, so I can't pass judgment.

Selam

Of course, this, like nothing's posts, is based on a selective reading of Scripture.  Why should the apostle John trump the Lord Jesus quoted in Matthew?  Or why should Mt 25.31-46 trump Mt 10.14-15, 22, 28, 32-33, 37? 

It's more honest to deal with the Jesus of the Gospels than to deal with the Jesus-of-the-Gospel-Bits-I-Like-Better-Than-the-Other-Bits.  Unfortunately, the latter is more popular because he's easier to understand (because he's like me), and if someone tries to counter it, the automatic supposition seems to be that his own JotGBILBTtOB is some hateful figure concocted to justify selfishness and murder (which, conveniently enough, looks like him).
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #75 on: June 12, 2017, 11:49:40 AM »
But it is interesting that many of the people here who would condemn priests for outwardly apostatizing in order to save innocent human lives also praise soldiers who kill to save lives.

There is more justification in the Scriptures for armed conflict in defence of the endangered than you will of apostasy to save the endangered.  But I would be happy to review the evidence for the latter. 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #76 on: June 12, 2017, 11:52:10 AM »
An additional interesting review of Silence, the novel:  https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2014/07/14/the-sinister-theology-of-endos-silence/

Good review, but I agree with the commenter "Mr N" who responded to it with the following insights:
"While there are many good points made in this review of Endo's heartbreaking novel, I see it differently. For me, Father Rodrigues does make the ultimate sacrifice--he gives up his notion of a glorious martyrdom and his pride to save others who die needlessly--and he adopts as his own the shame of Christ himself. It is only when he treads upon the fumie that he truly understands this, and therein lies the novel's power. Rodrigues is not exhibiting weakness, but strength. It should also be mentioned that the church is not deterred by Rodrigues's apostasy; in fact, it thrives, without the trappings of ritual, underground, for centuries--a fact attested to by history and in Endo's own life. This is a book that every Christian should read."

Selam
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #77 on: June 12, 2017, 11:56:34 AM »
"Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen." [I John 4:20]

I think St. John the Evangelist may give us an answer here. If we are willing to allow our human brothers and sisters to suffer and be killed in order to preserve the ideal of Orthodoxy then we may be guilty of superstition rather than faith. Again, I don't know the answer with any certainty. I am only inclined to think that sacrificing our own lives without committing an act of outward apostasy is certainly a noble act of martyrdom, but to relinquish others to torture and death when we could save them without violence to anyone else just seems to be a violation of the Gospel rather than a witness to the Gospel. But God alone knows the human heart, so I can't pass judgment.

Selam

Of course, this, like nothing's posts, is based on a selective reading of Scripture.  Why should the apostle John trump the Lord Jesus quoted in Matthew?  Or why should Mt 25.31-46 trump Mt 10.14-15, 22, 28, 32-33, 37? 

It's more honest to deal with the Jesus of the Gospels than to deal with the Jesus-of-the-Gospel-Bits-I-Like-Better-Than-the-Other-Bits.  Unfortunately, the latter is more popular because he's easier to understand (because he's like me), and if someone tries to counter it, the automatic supposition seems to be that his own JotGBILBTtOB is some hateful figure concocted to justify selfishness and murder (which, conveniently enough, looks like him).

Well, let's be honest. This entire discussion will have everyone appealing to selective portions of scripture and their own interpretation of the Gospel and of the story in question. And most of us here will claim that our own understanding is the Orthodox understanding. And I think it's better to grapple with the questions than to posit easy answers, especially since none of us knows what we would do or how we would respond in the same situation. The only certain Orthodox answer here is: "Lord have mercy."

Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #78 on: June 12, 2017, 12:08:24 PM »
"Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen." [I John 4:20]

I think St. John the Evangelist may give us an answer here. If we are willing to allow our human brothers and sisters to suffer and be killed in order to preserve the ideal of Orthodoxy then we may be guilty of superstition rather than faith. Again, I don't know the answer with any certainty. I am only inclined to think that sacrificing our own lives without committing an act of outward apostasy is certainly a noble act of martyrdom, but to relinquish others to torture and death when we could save them without violence to anyone else just seems to be a violation of the Gospel rather than a witness to the Gospel. But God alone knows the human heart, so I can't pass judgment.

Selam

Of course, this, like nothing's posts, is based on a selective reading of Scripture.  Why should the apostle John trump the Lord Jesus quoted in Matthew?  Or why should Mt 25.31-46 trump Mt 10.14-15, 22, 28, 32-33, 37? 

It's more honest to deal with the Jesus of the Gospels than to deal with the Jesus-of-the-Gospel-Bits-I-Like-Better-Than-the-Other-Bits.  Unfortunately, the latter is more popular because he's easier to understand (because he's like me), and if someone tries to counter it, the automatic supposition seems to be that his own JotGBILBTtOB is some hateful figure concocted to justify selfishness and murder (which, conveniently enough, looks like him).

Well, let's be honest. This entire discussion will have everyone appealing to selective portions of scripture and their own interpretation of the Gospel and of the story in question. And most of us here will claim that our own understanding is the Orthodox understanding. And I think it's better to grapple with the questions than to posit easy answers, especially since none of us knows what we would do or how we would respond in the same situation. The only certain Orthodox answer here is: "Lord have mercy."

Selam

It's true that "none of us knows what we would do or how we would respond in the same situation".  But if we are examining a theoretical question (and that's how I took your invitation in this thread), I don't think everyone will necessarily appeal to preferred proof-texts and interpretations and proclaim victory. 

If you consider the Scriptural texts, the witness of the history contained in those texts, the witness of the saints from the apostolic era to our own, etc., there's only one answer: no matter what, apostasy is not an option. 

Now, perhaps those who apostatise will have an opportunity to repent and reconcile with God and the Church, or perhaps they won't.  Perhaps the price of one's witness is an increased body count, or perhaps it won't come to that.  The Christian answer is not the nicest, cleanest, neatest, most non-violent answer.  But it is the Christian answer. 

If one can justify apostasy, one can justify almost anything, which is the convenient allure of nothing's ideology, which rejects Christianity entirely but uses some of its nicer texts to legitimise itself. 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #79 on: June 12, 2017, 12:13:38 PM »
"Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen." [I John 4:20]

I think St. John the Evangelist may give us an answer here. If we are willing to allow our human brothers and sisters to suffer and be killed in order to preserve the ideal of Orthodoxy then we may be guilty of superstition rather than faith. Again, I don't know the answer with any certainty. I am only inclined to think that sacrificing our own lives without committing an act of outward apostasy is certainly a noble act of martyrdom, but to relinquish others to torture and death when we could save them without violence to anyone else just seems to be a violation of the Gospel rather than a witness to the Gospel. But God alone knows the human heart, so I can't pass judgment.

Selam

Of course, this, like nothing's posts, is based on a selective reading of Scripture.  Why should the apostle John trump the Lord Jesus quoted in Matthew?  Or why should Mt 25.31-46 trump Mt 10.14-15, 22, 28, 32-33, 37? 

It's more honest to deal with the Jesus of the Gospels than to deal with the Jesus-of-the-Gospel-Bits-I-Like-Better-Than-the-Other-Bits.  Unfortunately, the latter is more popular because he's easier to understand (because he's like me), and if someone tries to counter it, the automatic supposition seems to be that his own JotGBILBTtOB is some hateful figure concocted to justify selfishness and murder (which, conveniently enough, looks like him).

Well, let's be honest. This entire discussion will have everyone appealing to selective portions of scripture and their own interpretation of the Gospel and of the story in question. And most of us here will claim that our own understanding is the Orthodox understanding. And I think it's better to grapple with the questions than to posit easy answers, especially since none of us knows what we would do or how we would respond in the same situation. The only certain Orthodox answer here is: "Lord have mercy."

Selam

It's true that "none of us knows what we would do or how we would respond in the same situation".  But if we are examining a theoretical question (and that's how I took your invitation in this thread), I don't think everyone will necessarily appeal to preferred proof-texts and interpretations and proclaim victory. 

If you consider the Scriptural texts, the witness of the history contained in those texts, the witness of the saints from the apostolic era to our own, etc., there's only one answer: no matter what, apostasy is not an option. 

Now, perhaps those who apostatise will have an opportunity to repent and reconcile with God and the Church, or perhaps they won't.  Perhaps the price of one's witness is an increased body count, or perhaps it won't come to that.  The Christian answer is not the nicest, cleanest, neatest, most non-violent answer.  But it is the Christian answer. 

If one can justify apostasy, one can justify almost anything, which is the convenient allure of nothing's ideology, which rejects Christianity entirely but uses some of its nicer texts to legitimise itself.

I tend to agree with your points here. I'm just not willing to say that outward professions of Orthodoxy are more important than the preservation of the lives of our neighbors. That's my dilemma. And again, let me be clear: I dare not pass judgment on such matters, especially on those who refused to apostatize even when it resulted in the torture and deaths of others. As you rightly say, the Christian answer is not always the most logical, clean, neat and tidy answer. In fact, that's one of my many arguments for pacifism. The Cross defies almost every natural human instinct.

Selam
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #80 on: June 12, 2017, 12:31:34 PM »
I'm just not willing to say that outward professions of Orthodoxy are more important than the preservation of the lives of our neighbors. That's my dilemma.

If an ISIS thug threatens to behead the guy next to you if you do not reject Christ and embrace Islam, you don't become the murderer if you refuse the offer.  Christian witness is not a lethal weapon except to devils. 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #81 on: June 12, 2017, 12:34:08 PM »
I appreciate that you are asking a tough and complex question with no easy answer, Gebre.  There are icons of paint and wood and there are icons of flesh and blood (the people of God).  In this case, there are also pseudo-icons of bronze created by a non-Christian state for a specific anti-Christians agenda.  I agree with all that has been said here by Mina, Mor, and others about Endo's "Christ" being a flawed representation of the real thing.  The Christ of the Gospels Mor was referencing could never utter something like the quote cited in the article:

Quote
“And then the Christ in bronze speaks to the priest: ‘Trample! Trample! I more than anyone know of the pain in your foot. Trample! It was to be trampled on by men that I was born into this world. It was to share men’s pain that I carried my cross.’”

I also agree that apostasy should never be an option.

All of that said, abstracts and hagiography aside, if some creep had a gun on a beautiful baby made in the image and likeness of God and was going to pull the trigger if you wouldn't step on an actual, consecrated icon - let alone some image crafted in bronze by non-believers specifically for the purpose of defaming Christ - how many posting in this thread would tell the guy to blow her brains out?  Would you mouth platitudes to her mother later?  Again, I'm not advocating apostasy here, but I am acknowledging that this isn't necessarily a question that can be solved in a cold, clinical matter by arguments or proof-texting.  The Syrian mother I referenced in my earlier post, she is certainly putting her money where her mouth is, so to speak, for her treasure is obviously not in this world, but with respect to everybody posting, I'm not so sure about the rest of us, me certainly included.  Again, I am not arguing on the side of Endo's false Christ or of apostasy here, I'm just saying that I don't know if I could stand by and watch living people killed or tortured when I knew I could make it stop.  While at the end of the day I agree heartily with Mor and Mina's recent posts in this thread, I acknowledge, Gebre, that this is not an easy question to answer and that it is one that deserves to be wrestled with, whether or not we like Endo and Scorsese's ideas on the subject.
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #82 on: June 12, 2017, 01:36:23 PM »
I'm just not willing to say that outward professions of Orthodoxy are more important than the preservation of the lives of our neighbors. That's my dilemma.

If an ISIS thug threatens to behead the guy next to you if you do not reject Christ and embrace Islam, you don't become the murderer if you refuse the offer.  Christian witness is not a lethal weapon except to devils.

Bingo!

Earlier Gebre you mentioned the apostasy of murder.  I want to appeal to your pacifism and say that denying Christ even outwardly is also murder, because you lead others astray with you.  Remember Christ is Life, and you have to partake of His broken body and drink the cup Christ drank in order to actualize the True Life He lived in yourself.  His death on the Cross lead to the horrific deaths of most of His disciples and apostles, but to them all, it was a salvific witnessing.  Consider therefore Christ as your example, who did not deny His Father to the Cross, but remained obedient, even though He knew His followers will follow a similar fate.

If Christ cannot prevent the death of His brothers and sisters, but encourages them to stand strong, then you are in no position to get in the way of others who should partake of the Kingdom through the Cross.

But I may also add:  it's better to flee persecution than to go right to it when you're not spiritually ready.  The story of Silence shows two priests, one of them who was not spiritually ready to handle the situation.  I think we are all blessed in a certain way to fight our demonic battles where we live.  But if and when the time comes, we know what the answer is.  The question is not what the gospels teach (because the answer is clear), but if we can handle what the gospel teaches.  The question Christ asks all of us: "can you drink the cup I drink?"
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 01:42:04 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #83 on: June 12, 2017, 01:43:23 PM »
I'm just not willing to say that outward professions of Orthodoxy are more important than the preservation of the lives of our neighbors. That's my dilemma.

If an ISIS thug threatens to behead the guy next to you if you do not reject Christ and embrace Islam, you don't become the murderer if you refuse the offer.  Christian witness is not a lethal weapon except to devils.

I agree. I never said that refusing to apostatize was equivalent to murder. But I stand by what I said above. It remains my dilemma. I wish I shared your sense of certainty. Pray for me.

Selam
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #84 on: June 12, 2017, 01:45:09 PM »
I appreciate that you are asking a tough and complex question with no easy answer, Gebre.  There are icons of paint and wood and there are icons of flesh and blood (the people of God).  In this case, there are also pseudo-icons of bronze created by a non-Christian state for a specific anti-Christians agenda.  I agree with all that has been said here by Mina, Mor, and others about Endo's "Christ" being a flawed representation of the real thing.  The Christ of the Gospels Mor was referencing could never utter something like the quote cited in the article:

Quote
“And then the Christ in bronze speaks to the priest: ‘Trample! Trample! I more than anyone know of the pain in your foot. Trample! It was to be trampled on by men that I was born into this world. It was to share men’s pain that I carried my cross.’”

I also agree that apostasy should never be an option.

All of that said, abstracts and hagiography aside, if some creep had a gun on a beautiful baby made in the image and likeness of God and was going to pull the trigger if you wouldn't step on an actual, consecrated icon - let alone some image crafted in bronze by non-believers specifically for the purpose of defaming Christ - how many posting in this thread would tell the guy to blow her brains out?  Would you mouth platitudes to her mother later?  Again, I'm not advocating apostasy here, but I am acknowledging that this isn't necessarily a question that can be solved in a cold, clinical matter by arguments or proof-texting.  The Syrian mother I referenced in my earlier post, she is certainly putting her money where her mouth is, so to speak, for her treasure is obviously not in this world, but with respect to everybody posting, I'm not so sure about the rest of us, me certainly included.  Again, I am not arguing on the side of Endo's false Christ or of apostasy here, I'm just saying that I don't know if I could stand by and watch living people killed or tortured when I knew I could make it stop.  While at the end of the day I agree heartily with Mor and Mina's recent posts in this thread, I acknowledge, Gebre, that this is not an easy question to answer and that it is one that deserves to be wrestled with, whether or not we like Endo and Scorsese's ideas on the subject.

Thank you brother. You summed it up well. May God help us all.

Selam
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #85 on: June 12, 2017, 01:46:21 PM »
I'm just not willing to say that outward professions of Orthodoxy are more important than the preservation of the lives of our neighbors. That's my dilemma.

If an ISIS thug threatens to behead the guy next to you if you do not reject Christ and embrace Islam, you don't become the murderer if you refuse the offer.  Christian witness is not a lethal weapon except to devils.

Bingo!

Earlier Gebre you mentioned the apostasy of murder.  I want to appeal to your pacifism and say that denying Christ even outwardly is also murder, because you lead others astray with you.  Remember Christ is Life, and you have to partake of His broken body and drink the cup Christ drank in order to actualize the True Life He lived in yourself.  His death on the Cross lead to the horrific deaths of most of His disciples and apostles, but to them all, it was a salvific witnessing.  Consider therefore Christ as your example, who did not deny His Father to the Cross, but remained obedient, even though He knew His followers will follow a similar fate.

If Christ cannot prevent the death of His brothers and sisters, but encourages them to stand strong, then you are in no position to get in the way of others who should partake of the Kingdom through the Cross.

But I may also add:  it's better to flee persecution than to go right to it when you're not spiritually ready.  The story of Silence shows two priests, one of them who was not spiritually ready to handle the situation.  I think we are all blessed in a certain way to fight our demonic battles where we live.  But if and when the time comes, we know what the answer is.  The question is not what the gospels teach (because the answer is clear), but if we can handle what the gospel teaches.  The question Christ asks all of us: "can you drink the cup I drink?"

I don't argue with that.

Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #86 on: August 11, 2017, 06:18:34 PM »
I'm not sure what you mean by "favoring my own illusion", the gospel narrative is enough. Are you ashamed of it, mina? Is it not enough?

I must ask, when you read The Gospel or any part of The Bilbe, do you do so alone? As you need no other doctrine nor traditions is it the case no one or thing is needed for your understanding and practice of The Message? No, scratch the last part of my question since one may not "practice" without another our directives from Him. But is salvation determined by you and God alone and thus need no other precedence, examples nor guides?
I admire your strength so I must query when your wife asks,"Does this dress make me look fat"?, what does The Gospel have you respond?
Oh, saw the movie,,never buy movies but I purchased this one.
There is one part, years later when both now Buddhist and former Christian priests, are sitting, writing, and the Liam-character turns and utters one Christian sentence to his friend, who in disbelief asks him to repeat with the answer being the same as God's response to many of our desires & passion fulfillment, at that moment the whole movie coalesced to it's name and Showed that the old guy never did put Christ outside of his life.
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #87 on: August 11, 2017, 06:36:26 PM »
Gebre, and all of you that responded, thanks for this thread. I used this movie to note reactions to faith in friends I have. I am rotten like that.
And Liz, you bug me (and possibly all of us) with your first post. I see no one took that post straight on...heavy duty that, and thanks.

To those who live in their heads, it is seen that when rubber & road meet things do change.
For any that have been where the two touch, we thank God finding joy in His mercy.
This movie exposed it well.
I always found Scorsese to be slime-ball with all his glorifying gratuitous violence but this one did score tops with me.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 06:37:24 PM by LenInSebastopol »
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #88 on: August 11, 2017, 08:50:30 PM »
And Liz, you bug me (and possibly all of us) with your first post. I see no one took that post straight on...heavy duty that, and thanks.

LOL!

...I am amazed my words could actually have any impact on anyone, much less ALL of you.  This is great!!!
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #89 on: August 15, 2017, 02:17:28 PM »
I finally saw it this weekend and was shocked by how good it was and the fact that it was made and released at all. I was shocked not only because of the prevailing Hollywood culture but also that the last Scorsese movie I saw, Wolf of Wall Street, struck me as an utterly shallow glamorization, disguised as expose/ critique, of Wall Street hedonism. I have liked some Scorsese films but he's never been a favorite of mine. Apart from that, I was shocked that he was able to get the film made and distributed. A grim spiritual drama with no love interest, no happy ending- even a big name like Scorsese doesn't have the power to push that through, I would think. But here it is.

I've seen the critiques of the film essentially presenting the Jesuit's apostasy as a laudable choice. The conclusion was far too ambiguous for me to agree. Maybe I'll say more later...
Quote
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