Author Topic: "SILENCE" (The movie)  (Read 3397 times)

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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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"SILENCE" (The movie)
« on: May 31, 2017, 02:24:37 AM »
I watched the movie Silence with my sons the other night. Amazing film. Scorsese knocked it out of the park in terms of making a beautiful, thought provoking, and wonderfully acted piece of cinema. I thought the movie also portrayed Christianity, martyrdom, and the sincere struggle of faith quite profoundly and quite accurately. But others have said they felt the movie justified apostasy and disrespected the martyrs. I don't agree. But I felt this movie deserved its own thread for discussion. There were many themes and questions raised by this movie, but one idea that I would especially like to discuss is the question of whether it is permissible to verbally renounce Christ in order to save the lives of others. If we are more concerned about not apostatizing than we are about saving the lives of our neighbors, then is that not an apostasy in and of itself? I don't know the answer, but this is one of the difficult questions raised by this movie.

Looking forward to everyone's thoughts and opinions about this fascinating film.

Selam
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Offline Agabus

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2017, 09:46:17 AM »
I haven't had a chance to see it, but assumed it hit the right notes because the public press seemed to think it gave too much credence to faith and the religious press seemed to think the takeaway was that apostasy was good.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2017, 10:50:56 AM »
Just a few rapid fire thoughts:

I enjoyed the film.  Scorcese does a great job directing and Issey Ogata is phenomenal.  Every scene he's in he steals the show.  The rest of cast is solid too, especially Adam Driver.  The story is based upon a semi-historical novel by Japanese Catholic author Shusaku Endo, and it at once speaks to the depth of the Christian faith while simultaneously taking the mickey out of the would-be missionaries for their hubris and failure to truly understand (and wash the feet of) the people they were serving.

In some respects, it was downer and at times frustrating.  The missionaries - while well-intentioned - truly failed to understand the needs and the culture of the population they were sent to serve.  Watching Andrew Garfield's character's formal debate with his Japanese interrogators was maddening.  It seemed as if he saw the Church as a adjunct to his own culture and was unable to see how it might develop as a thing independent of European influence and become something truly Japanese as thus allay some of the fears of the local authorities who felt it was a built-in fifth column for unwelcome imperialist powers.  The angle of how Christianity might become incarnate in Japanese culture seemed to never cross the mind of the Western missionaries in this film.  They didn't even bother to learn the Japanese language!

Yosuke Kubozuka's character was symbolic of all of us, who continually betray the Lord and the Faith, and yet are accepted, though unworthy, through repentance, right up to the very end.

The cinematography was fantastic.

Like Black Robe before it, this film did not shy away from examining the flaws of both the European missionaries and their culture and those of the culture they were attempting to evangelize.

The question you have asked, Gebre, is a deep one.  I too would love to hear everyone's thoughts on that issue.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2017, 11:22:34 AM »

I know this is aimed at me, as I am the one who disagreed with your evaluation of the movie.  :)

Let me say this....I did enjoy the movie...and it did a super job portraying the struggle these people...and "we" people....go through, sometimes on a daily basis...with our faith.   It truly did a magnificent job.

My favorite character was the "guide"...cheechee-something.  He watched his family get martyred, but, he apostatized because he wanted to live.   When "Padre" showed up, he immediately wished to confess his sins....which he did....until the next opportunity to become a martyr....which saw him apostatize again....and later, seek confession and forgiveness....again.  This same scenario repeated itself a good number of times....To me...this was "us".  We fall daily, and the main thing is we get back up, repent and move on....until we fall again, rinse, repeat....

I had no issues with any of the movie, until the very end.

When the priest chastised the older priest who apostatized...and then within minutes he joins him.  Again...I would have no real issue with this occurrence, as priests are people...and people are weak...and I certainly wouldn't judge anyone for this.  I pray that I would willingly, if not joyously be martyred if need be....but, one never knows until it happens.

The reason I said I was unhappy with the movie is this.

Throughout the movie, the young priest has "visions" of Christ.  He sees His face as it was depicted in his childhood home.  An icon, of sorts.  When he is desperate, this image comes to him.  He sees Christ's face reflected in his own face, as he gazes in to a stream of water.  All this is good...

Until the very end.

The young priest is told to apostatize...and instead of being strong, and becoming a martyr....he does apostatize.  Even that is fine.  I have no issues.  This happens, and may the Lord forgive the individual.

However, just as he stands up and is battling with himself as to his next course of action...martyrdom or apostasy....he once again sees that same face of Christ....and mixed with his own voice, we hear Christ speaking to him...saying something like, "....I am with you....go ahead....step on me....I love you....step on me...go ahead....I am with you....step on me....apostatize."

THAT is my issue.  That they show Christ saying....go ahead dude....I don't care....I still love you (which He does...as He loves ALL)...nonetheless....go ahead....deny me...betray me....step on me with your muddied shoe....it's all good. 

REALLY!???!? 

This spits in the face of all our martyrs....who refused to deny Christ....who now are in His presence for their sacrifice ....but, apparently....they didn't need to.  They could have just as well denied Christ....per His own words....and all would be well.

In the movie...Christ invites this man to step on Him...in order to save his life.  That is blasphemous!!!!  We are NOT made for this life.  We should not focus so much on THIS life!

AHHHH!!!!!

"For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live...."
" For through the Law I have died to the Law, that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me - Gal 2:16-17, 19-20.
"When you die before you die, you will not die when you die...."

Do all of the above, and oh so many more references....mean nothing?

....this priest apostatizes....and if you listened carefully....you would have heard the rooster crowing in the background....very appropriately....as Christ would have wanted it to....because this man...stepped on Him....and denied Him.

Peter and Judas both denied Christ....but, Peter repented.  ...and went forth to grow the CHurch....spread the true joy.....

This priest and the older one...both took wives, became Buddhists...and worked against the Church.  Destroying the Christians.  Helping the government identify and confiscate Christian paraphernalia...and cutting out the heart of the Christian villages in Japan.  They turned people away from the Church.  The priest even wrote a number of volumes on how to debunk Christianity.

....and Christ was supposedly good with all this.  Really?

....because you know...God is love....He loves all...and all is permissible.

KeekeeChooo.....who kept falling, and repenting...and falling and repenting....in the end....became a martyr.

....the priest...did not.  It hints that he secretly may have retained his faith....but, in secret.  That did a lot of good to the struggling Christians in the area....as he openly denied Christ.

His widow places a cross in his dead hand....but. so?  Unless he secretly had ministered to the fragile, frightened and desperate flock...that perhaps we were not made aware of....what was the purpose of his life?  In the end...if what we saw was true...he hurt the Church, instead of growing it....and all with not only the permission, but, with the encouragement of Christ, who instructed the priest to deny and betray Him.

Orthodoxy or death.
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2017, 11:28:09 AM »
Just a few rapid fire thoughts:

I enjoyed the film.  Scorcese does a great job directing and Issey Ogata is phenomenal.  Every scene he's in he steals the show.  The rest of cast is solid too, especially Adam Driver.  The story is based upon a semi-historical novel by Japanese Catholic author Shusaku Endo, and it at once speaks to the depth of the Christian faith while simultaneously taking the mickey out of the would-be missionaries for their hubris and failure to truly understand (and wash the feet of) the people they were serving.

In some respects, it was downer and at times frustrating.  The missionaries - while well-intentioned - truly failed to understand the needs and the culture of the population they were sent to serve.  Watching Andrew Garfield's character's formal debate with his Japanese interrogators was maddening.  It seemed as if he saw the Church as a adjunct to his own culture and was unable to see how it might develop as a thing independent of European influence and become something truly Japanese as thus allay some of the fears of the local authorities who felt it was a built-in fifth column for unwelcome imperialist powers.  The angle of how Christianity might become incarnate in Japanese culture seemed to never cross the mind of the Western missionaries in this film.  They didn't even bother to learn the Japanese language!

Yosuke Kubozuka's character was symbolic of all of us, who continually betray the Lord and the Faith, and yet are accepted, though unworthy, through repentance, right up to the very end.

The cinematography was fantastic.

Like Black Robe before it, this film did not shy away from examining the flaws of both the European missionaries and their culture and those of the culture they were attempting to evangelize.

The question you have asked, Gebre, is a deep one.  I too would love to hear everyone's thoughts on that issue.

Thanks for the excellent insights.

Another aspect of the film that I found quite intriguing was its negative portrayal of Buddhism. I was pretty shocked that Hollywood made a movie where Christianity came out looking better than Buddhism. While I agree that Garfield's character didn't exactly provide the best Christian arguments, I found myself more frustrated with the Interrogator's Buddhist arguments. I'm certainly no expert on Buddhism, but I do know that compassion is the central value in Buddhist thought. So I kept hoping the Christian missionary would challenge the evil being done to Christians with Buddhist philosophy itself. But as you pointed out, perhaps that is because historically the missionaries did not seek to understand the culture they sought to redeem.

Selam
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 11:28:26 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2017, 11:29:18 AM »
You make some fantastic points, Liza.  May I ask where your previous discussion of the film (with Gebre, I presume?) took place?  I'd like to read your exchange if I may.  Thank you. :)
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2017, 11:36:06 AM »

I know this is aimed at me, as I am the one who disagreed with your evaluation of the movie.  :)

Let me say this....I did enjoy the movie...and it did a super job portraying the struggle these people...and "we" people....go through, sometimes on a daily basis...with our faith.   It truly did a magnificent job.

My favorite character was the "guide"...cheechee-something.  He watched his family get martyred, but, he apostatized because he wanted to live.   When "Padre" showed up, he immediately wished to confess his sins....which he did....until the next opportunity to become a martyr....which saw him apostatize again....and later, seek confession and forgiveness....again.  This same scenario repeated itself a good number of times....To me...this was "us".  We fall daily, and the main thing is we get back up, repent and move on....until we fall again, rinse, repeat....

I had no issues with any of the movie, until the very end.

When the priest chastised the older priest who apostatized...and then within minutes he joins him.  Again...I would have no real issue with this occurrence, as priests are people...and people are weak...and I certainly wouldn't judge anyone for this.  I pray that I would willingly, if not joyously be martyred if need be....but, one never knows until it happens.

The reason I said I was unhappy with the movie is this.

Throughout the movie, the young priest has "visions" of Christ.  He sees His face as it was depicted in his childhood home.  An icon, of sorts.  When he is desperate, this image comes to him.  He sees Christ's face reflected in his own face, as he gazes in to a stream of water.  All this is good...

Until the very end.

The young priest is told to apostatize...and instead of being strong, and becoming a martyr....he does apostatize.  Even that is fine.  I have no issues.  This happens, and may the Lord forgive the individual.

However, just as he stands up and is battling with himself as to his next course of action...martyrdom or apostasy....he once again sees that same face of Christ....and mixed with his own voice, we hear Christ speaking to him...saying something like, "....I am with you....go ahead....step on me....I love you....step on me...go ahead....I am with you....step on me....apostatize."

THAT is my issue.  That they show Christ saying....go ahead dude....I don't care....I still love you (which He does...as He loves ALL)...nonetheless....go ahead....deny me...betray me....step on me with your muddied shoe....it's all good. 

REALLY!???!? 

This spits in the face of all our martyrs....who refused to deny Christ....who now are in His presence for their sacrifice ....but, apparently....they didn't need to.  They could have just as well denied Christ....per His own words....and all would be well.

In the movie...Christ invites this man to step on Him...in order to save his life.  That is blasphemous!!!!  We are NOT made for this life.  We should not focus so much on THIS life!

AHHHH!!!!!

"For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live...."
" For through the Law I have died to the Law, that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me - Gal 2:16-17, 19-20.
"When you die before you die, you will not die when you die...."

Do all of the above, and oh so many more references....mean nothing?

....this priest apostatizes....and if you listened carefully....you would have heard the rooster crowing in the background....very appropriately....as Christ would have wanted it to....because this man...stepped on Him....and denied Him.

Peter and Judas both denied Christ....but, Peter repented.  ...and went forth to grow the CHurch....spread the true joy.....

This priest and the older one...both took wives, became Buddhists...and worked against the Church.  Destroying the Christians.  Helping the government identify and confiscate Christian paraphernalia...and cutting out the heart of the Christian villages in Japan.  They turned people away from the Church.  The priest even wrote a number of volumes on how to debunk Christianity.

....and Christ was supposedly good with all this.  Really?

....because you know...God is love....He loves all...and all is permissible.

KeekeeChooo.....who kept falling, and repenting...and falling and repenting....in the end....became a martyr.

....the priest...did not.  It hints that he secretly may have retained his faith....but, in secret.  That did a lot of good to the struggling Christians in the area....as he openly denied Christ.

His widow places a cross in his dead hand....but. so?  Unless he secretly had ministered to the fragile, frightened and desperate flock...that perhaps we were not made aware of....what was the purpose of his life?  In the end...if what we saw was true...he hurt the Church, instead of growing it....and all with not only the permission, but, with the encouragement of Christ, who instructed the priest to deny and betray Him.

Orthodoxy or death.

Thanks for those important thoughts dear Liza. And this wasn't aimed at you. I've heard many others express the same concerns. And I think your concerns are valid. I just felt the movie ended on a note of ambiguity, which I personally appreciated. Yes, I wanted it to end with the Priest fully professing Christ and becoming a martyr if need be. That would have made me happy. But as you pointed out, none of us really know how we will act in the face of such temptation and horror. So I chose to believe that the Priest did go on to secretly serve the Church and preach the Gospel. I chose to believe that he stepped on a brass icon in order to save living human icons. But that was my own interpretation of it. Perhaps overly optimistic. But I think part of the genius of the movie is that it leaves us unsettled, forcing us to reckon with these profound questions.

Selam
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2017, 11:38:17 AM »
You make some fantastic points, Liza.  May I ask where your previous discussion of the film (with Gebre, I presume?) took place?  I'd like to read your exchange if I may.  Thank you. :)

It was on Facebook, but it was very brief. I certainly appreciate Liza's concerns and I think they are valid.

Selam
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2017, 11:45:21 AM »
Thanks for the excellent insights.

Thanks for the charitable assessment of my quick synopsis. :)

Another aspect of the film that I found quite intriguing was its negative portrayal of Buddhism. I was pretty shocked that Hollywood made a movie where Christianity came out looking better than Buddhism. While I agree that Garfield's character didn't exactly provide the best Christian arguments, I found myself more frustrated with the Interrogator's Buddhist arguments. I'm certainly no expert on Buddhism, but I do know that compassion is the central value in Buddhist thought.

Were the interrogator's arguments really Buddhist though, or were they simply Buddhist-derived platitudes employed in the service of the state even as the Latin Church itself might've justified its own inquisitions in "Christian" terms?

So I kept hoping the Christian missionary would challenge the evil being done to Christians with Buddhist philosophy itself. But as you pointed out, perhaps that is because historically the missionaries did not seek to understand the culture they sought to redeem.

Agreed.  A missionary with a true understanding of the culture he was serving - including how that culture had processed and made its own alien faiths such as Buddhism - would've fared much better.  Even advancing the argument that Buddhism itself was an import would have been a step up from the angry, spiteful, self-righteous arguments Garfield's character seemed to be regurgitating in that exchange.

You make some fantastic points, Liza.  May I ask where your previous discussion of the film (with Gebre, I presume?) took place?  I'd like to read your exchange if I may.  Thank you. :)

It was on Facebook, but it was very brief. I certainly appreciate Liza's concerns and I think they are valid.

Selam

Okay, thanks.  I don't really do the FB thing, so I guess I'll just have to settle for reading your exchanges on the matter here. :)
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2017, 12:11:07 PM »
Thanks for the excellent insights.

Thanks for the charitable assessment of my quick synopsis. :)

Another aspect of the film that I found quite intriguing was its negative portrayal of Buddhism. I was pretty shocked that Hollywood made a movie where Christianity came out looking better than Buddhism. While I agree that Garfield's character didn't exactly provide the best Christian arguments, I found myself more frustrated with the Interrogator's Buddhist arguments. I'm certainly no expert on Buddhism, but I do know that compassion is the central value in Buddhist thought.

Were the interrogator's arguments really Buddhist though, or were they simply Buddhist-derived platitudes employed in the service of the state even as the Latin Church itself might've justified its own inquisitions in "Christian" terms?

So I kept hoping the Christian missionary would challenge the evil being done to Christians with Buddhist philosophy itself. But as you pointed out, perhaps that is because historically the missionaries did not seek to understand the culture they sought to redeem.

Agreed.  A missionary with a true understanding of the culture he was serving - including how that culture had processed and made its own alien faiths such as Buddhism - would've fared much better.  Even advancing the argument that Buddhism itself was an import would have been a step up from the angry, spiteful, self-righteous arguments Garfield's character seemed to be regurgitating in that exchange.

You make some fantastic points, Liza.  May I ask where your previous discussion of the film (with Gebre, I presume?) took place?  I'd like to read your exchange if I may.  Thank you. :)

It was on Facebook, but it was very brief. I certainly appreciate Liza's concerns and I think they are valid.

Selam

Okay, thanks.  I don't really do the FB thing, so I guess I'll just have to settle for reading your exchanges on the matter here. :)

Agreed on all points. I didn't even know that Buddhism was imported to Japan. That certainly would have indeed been a good argument. Can you tell me more about that?

I think of St. Paul who used pagan philosophy to point to the Gospel. Rather than blasting the worldview of the polytheists, he simply pointed out how Christ was the fulfillment of the truth they were seeking. I've often thought that the best argument against Islamic terrorism is to point out the very words that Muslims themselves invoke day in and day out: "In the name of Allah, the compassionate, the merciful."


Selam
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 12:11:46 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2017, 12:12:30 PM »
Love this discussion BTW. Thanks everyone!  :)

Selam
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2017, 12:23:54 PM »
Agreed on all points. I didn't even know that Buddhism was imported to Japan. That certainly would have indeed been a good argument. Can you tell me more about that?

Buddhism originated in India. It came to Japan mainly by way of China and Korea. Like a lot of missionary religions, it began as a religion of the elite and gradually filtered to the rest of society. Wherever Buddhism spread, it tended not to completely negate the native religion, but simply presented itself as a superior path. Indigenous deities would be adopted as lesser guardian spirits for the Buddhas, which is why you'll often find Shinto temples at the front of Buddhist temples in Japan. A similar thing appears in China and Tibet. Japanese Buddhist schools are developments from schools that came from China, though often they underwent major changes. The most popular form of Buddhism in Japan is the Pure Land sect, which bears some comparison with Calvinism in its soteriology.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2017, 12:26:44 PM »
Agreed on all points. I didn't even know that Buddhism was imported to Japan. That certainly would have indeed been a good argument. Can you tell me more about that?

There are others here who are far more knowledgeable about this subject, but as I understand it, Shinto is the indigenous, polytheistic religion of Japan.  Buddhism came to Japan some time in the late 5th or early to mid 6th century from China and Shinto and Buddhism have co-existed since that time.  Many people practice the rites of both faiths simultaneously since they are not exclusivist in the way that the monotheistic faiths are.  I'm sure you already know that Buddhism is ultimately the product of India and came to East Asia along the Silk Road.  Like I said, this is not my area of expertise, but it shouldn't be hard to find out more about this.

I think of St. Paul who used pagan philosophy to point to the Gospel. Rather than blasting the worldview of the polytheists, he simply pointed out how Christ was the fulfillment of the truth they were seeking. I've often thought that the best argument against Islamic terrorism is to point out the very words that Muslims themselves invoke day in and day out: "In the name of Allah, the compassionate, the merciful."

Agreed.
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2017, 12:29:53 PM »
Iconodule and I must've been typing at the same time.  Although our posts are complimentary and do not contradict each other, Gebre, he knows way more about the history of this region than I do and I'll let him answer further inquiries you might have in this direction.
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2017, 12:38:27 PM »
Thanks to both of you!

Selam
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 12:38:52 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2017, 12:38:35 PM »
Many people practice the rites of both faiths simultaneously since they are not exclusivist in the way that the monotheistic faiths are.

Right, though official Buddhism definitely frames itself as the superior path. Propitiating spirits might have a number of benefits and help toward a favorable rebirth, but only the Buddha-dharma leads to liberation. On the other side there have been attempts to reconstruct a "pure" Japanese Shinto free of any commingling with Buddhism. They don't seem to be very successful.

I was surprised to find out recently that, during their occupation of Taiwan, the Japanese tried to supplant Chinese folk religion and Daoism with Shinto.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2017, 12:46:33 PM »
Many people practice the rites of both faiths simultaneously since they are not exclusivist in the way that the monotheistic faiths are.

Right, though official Buddhism definitely frames itself as the superior path. Propitiating spirits might have a number of benefits and help toward a favorable rebirth, but only the Buddha-dharma leads to liberation. On the other side there have been attempts to reconstruct a "pure" Japanese Shinto free of any commingling with Buddhism. They don't seem to be very successful.

I was surprised to find out recently that, during their occupation of Taiwan, the Japanese tried to supplant Chinese folk religion and Daoism with Shinto.

Iconodule

What's your profile picture?  It looks a classical Chinese painting in style (though I've never seen monkeys portrayed before in my limited encounters with Chinese landscape paintings) and I think I can see the chop seal. 

Shawn

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2017, 12:48:06 PM »
I watched the movie Silence with my sons the other night. Amazing film. Scorsese knocked it out of the park in terms of making a beautiful, thought provoking, and wonderfully acted piece of cinema. I thought the movie also portrayed Christianity, martyrdom, and the sincere struggle of faith quite profoundly and quite accurately. But others have said they felt the movie justified apostasy and disrespected the martyrs. I don't agree. But I felt this movie deserved its own thread for discussion. There were many themes and questions raised by this movie, but one idea that I would especially like to discuss is the question of whether it is permissible to verbally renounce Christ in order to save the lives of others. If we are more concerned about not apostatizing than we are about saving the lives of our neighbors, then is that not an apostasy in and of itself? I don't know the answer, but this is one of the difficult questions raised by this movie.

Looking forward to everyone's thoughts and opinions about this fascinating film.

Selam

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Is this movie similar to Roland Joffé's 1986 film "The Mission"?

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2017, 12:52:35 PM »

I know this is aimed at me, as I am the one who disagreed with your evaluation of the movie.  :)

Let me say this....I did enjoy the movie...and it did a super job portraying the struggle these people...and "we" people....go through, sometimes on a daily basis...with our faith.   It truly did a magnificent job.

My favorite character was the "guide"...cheechee-something.  He watched his family get martyred, but, he apostatized because he wanted to live.   When "Padre" showed up, he immediately wished to confess his sins....which he did....until the next opportunity to become a martyr....which saw him apostatize again....and later, seek confession and forgiveness....again.  This same scenario repeated itself a good number of times....To me...this was "us".  We fall daily, and the main thing is we get back up, repent and move on....until we fall again, rinse, repeat....

I had no issues with any of the movie, until the very end.

When the priest chastised the older priest who apostatized...and then within minutes he joins him.  Again...I would have no real issue with this occurrence, as priests are people...and people are weak...and I certainly wouldn't judge anyone for this.  I pray that I would willingly, if not joyously be martyred if need be....but, one never knows until it happens.

The reason I said I was unhappy with the movie is this.

Throughout the movie, the young priest has "visions" of Christ.  He sees His face as it was depicted in his childhood home.  An icon, of sorts.  When he is desperate, this image comes to him.  He sees Christ's face reflected in his own face, as he gazes in to a stream of water.  All this is good...

Until the very end.

The young priest is told to apostatize...and instead of being strong, and becoming a martyr....he does apostatize.  Even that is fine.  I have no issues.  This happens, and may the Lord forgive the individual.

However, just as he stands up and is battling with himself as to his next course of action...martyrdom or apostasy....he once again sees that same face of Christ....and mixed with his own voice, we hear Christ speaking to him...saying something like, "....I am with you....go ahead....step on me....I love you....step on me...go ahead....I am with you....step on me....apostatize."

THAT is my issue.  That they show Christ saying....go ahead dude....I don't care....I still love you (which He does...as He loves ALL)...nonetheless....go ahead....deny me...betray me....step on me with your muddied shoe....it's all good. 

REALLY!???!? 

This spits in the face of all our martyrs....who refused to deny Christ....who now are in His presence for their sacrifice ....but, apparently....they didn't need to.  They could have just as well denied Christ....per His own words....and all would be well.

In the movie...Christ invites this man to step on Him...in order to save his life.  That is blasphemous!!!!  We are NOT made for this life.  We should not focus so much on THIS life!

AHHHH!!!!!

"For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live...."
" For through the Law I have died to the Law, that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me - Gal 2:16-17, 19-20.
"When you die before you die, you will not die when you die...."

Do all of the above, and oh so many more references....mean nothing?

....this priest apostatizes....and if you listened carefully....you would have heard the rooster crowing in the background....very appropriately....as Christ would have wanted it to....because this man...stepped on Him....and denied Him.

Peter and Judas both denied Christ....but, Peter repented.  ...and went forth to grow the CHurch....spread the true joy.....

This priest and the older one...both took wives, became Buddhists...and worked against the Church.  Destroying the Christians.  Helping the government identify and confiscate Christian paraphernalia...and cutting out the heart of the Christian villages in Japan.  They turned people away from the Church.  The priest even wrote a number of volumes on how to debunk Christianity.

....and Christ was supposedly good with all this.  Really?

....because you know...God is love....He loves all...and all is permissible.

KeekeeChooo.....who kept falling, and repenting...and falling and repenting....in the end....became a martyr.

....the priest...did not.  It hints that he secretly may have retained his faith....but, in secret.  That did a lot of good to the struggling Christians in the area....as he openly denied Christ.

His widow places a cross in his dead hand....but. so?  Unless he secretly had ministered to the fragile, frightened and desperate flock...that perhaps we were not made aware of....what was the purpose of his life?  In the end...if what we saw was true...he hurt the Church, instead of growing it....and all with not only the permission, but, with the encouragement of Christ, who instructed the priest to deny and betray Him.

Orthodoxy or death.

This doesn't surprise me at all. After all, it's from the auteur that brought the world The Last Temptation of Christ. I'd be surprised if any "serious" modern moviemaker could make a religious movie without some blasphemy in it.
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2017, 12:56:04 PM »
Many people practice the rites of both faiths simultaneously since they are not exclusivist in the way that the monotheistic faiths are.

Right, though official Buddhism definitely frames itself as the superior path. Propitiating spirits might have a number of benefits and help toward a favorable rebirth, but only the Buddha-dharma leads to liberation. On the other side there have been attempts to reconstruct a "pure" Japanese Shinto free of any commingling with Buddhism. They don't seem to be very successful.

I was surprised to find out recently that, during their occupation of Taiwan, the Japanese tried to supplant Chinese folk religion and Daoism with Shinto.

Iconodule

What's your profile picture?  It looks a classical Chinese painting in style (though I've never seen monkeys portrayed before in my limited encounters with Chinese landscape paintings) and I think I can see the chop seal. 

Shawn

It's by the Xuande emperor (Ming dynasty), from 1427.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2017, 12:56:13 PM »
... The missionaries - while well-intentioned - truly failed to understand the needs and the culture of the population they were sent to serve.  Watching Andrew Garfield's character's formal debate with his Japanese interrogators was maddening.  It seemed as if he saw the Church as a adjunct to his own culture and was unable to see how it might develop as a thing independent of European influence and become something truly Japanese as thus allay some of the fears of the local authorities who felt it was a built-in fifth column for unwelcome imperialist powers.  The angle of how Christianity might become incarnate in Japanese culture seemed to never cross the mind of the Western missionaries in this film. They didn't even bother to learn the Japanese language! ...

The Jesuits of that era were more like state operatives than what we'd think of as missionaries. They'd arrange diplomatic meetings with as high an authority as they could, then discuss economics and Western science, offer to fund improvements, and so forth. Christianizing Asia was very much intended to expand European political influence -- even to annex Asian countries to Europe, if everything could have gone according to plan. In South America, this kind of work went very well, turning almost the whole continent into a subsidiary of Spain and Portugal. The Jesuits were so successful that they eventually just began to run much of South America as a personal empire, which, of course, upset the aristocrats back home and finally got them suppressed by the Vatican.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 12:59:13 PM by Porter ODoran »
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2017, 01:00:22 PM »
Many people practice the rites of both faiths simultaneously since they are not exclusivist in the way that the monotheistic faiths are.

Right, though official Buddhism definitely frames itself as the superior path. Propitiating spirits might have a number of benefits and help toward a favorable rebirth, but only the Buddha-dharma leads to liberation. On the other side there have been attempts to reconstruct a "pure" Japanese Shinto free of any commingling with Buddhism. They don't seem to be very successful.

I was surprised to find out recently that, during their occupation of Taiwan, the Japanese tried to supplant Chinese folk religion and Daoism with Shinto.

Iconodule

What's your profile picture?  It looks a classical Chinese painting in style (though I've never seen monkeys portrayed before in my limited encounters with Chinese landscape paintings) and I think I can see the chop seal. 

Shawn

It's by the Xuande emperor (Ming dynasty), from 1427.

Cool.  Thanks.  Are you familiar with Zhang Daqian?

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2017, 01:02:32 PM »
No. I love Chinese art ever since my mom took me to the National Palace Museum as a kid, but I'm mainly at the level of "this looks really cool" and I don't have much knowledge of the history or the big names.
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“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2017, 01:20:31 PM »
Many people practice the rites of both faiths simultaneously since they are not exclusivist in the way that the monotheistic faiths are.

Right, though official Buddhism definitely frames itself as the superior path. Propitiating spirits might have a number of benefits and help toward a favorable rebirth, but only the Buddha-dharma leads to liberation. On the other side there have been attempts to reconstruct a "pure" Japanese Shinto free of any commingling with Buddhism. They don't seem to be very successful.

I was surprised to find out recently that, during their occupation of Taiwan, the Japanese tried to supplant Chinese folk religion and Daoism with Shinto.

Fascinating.  Thanks for this.

... The missionaries - while well-intentioned - truly failed to understand the needs and the culture of the population they were sent to serve.  Watching Andrew Garfield's character's formal debate with his Japanese interrogators was maddening.  It seemed as if he saw the Church as a adjunct to his own culture and was unable to see how it might develop as a thing independent of European influence and become something truly Japanese as thus allay some of the fears of the local authorities who felt it was a built-in fifth column for unwelcome imperialist powers.  The angle of how Christianity might become incarnate in Japanese culture seemed to never cross the mind of the Western missionaries in this film. They didn't even bother to learn the Japanese language! ...

The Jesuits of that era were more like state operatives than what we'd think of as missionaries. They'd arrange diplomatic meetings with as high an authority as they could, then discuss economics and Western science, offer to fund improvements, and so forth. Christianizing Asia was very much intended to expand European political influence -- even to annex Asian countries to Europe, if everything could have gone according to plan. In South America, this kind of work went very well, turning almost the whole continent into a subsidiary of Spain and Portugal. The Jesuits were so successful that they eventually just began to run much of South America as a personal empire, which, of course, upset the aristocrats back home and finally got them suppressed by the Vatican.

I'm aware.  They tried to follow a similar course of action in Orthodox Ethiopia.  Thank God, their efforts proved a colossal failure.
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2017, 01:27:02 PM »
...but one idea that I would especially like to discuss is the question of whether it is permissible to verbally renounce Christ in order to save the lives of others. If we are more concerned about not apostatizing than we are about saving the lives of our neighbors, then is that not an apostasy in and of itself?

I haven't seen this movie, and I'm not sure if you're looking for thoughts only from people who have, so perhaps my comment is out of place.  But the question seems general enough to engage. 

Your question presumes that the person offering a Christian the choice to renounce Christ in order to save others' lives is honourable enough to hold to his end of the deal if the Christian renounces Christ.  But we have documented cases in our own day when, for example, ISIS thugs force non-Muslims to convert to Islam in order to save their lives and then behead them anyway because they're just kafirs whose conversions were not genuine.  Are such people trustworthy to begin with? 

I think it comes down to trust, which is just faith.  Do you trust the guy who is willing to kill others unless you renounce a particular belief?  Or do you trust God to be able to take care of you and the people who might be killed when you refuse to renounce Christ?

Renouncing Christ to save others may come from a good intention, and perhaps it is the choice one might make in the heat of the moment (I don't think I'm martyr material myself), but it is a deception.  It's not a question of being more concerned about apostasising than saving lives, as if the choice is really selfishness vs altruism.  Such a choice may lead to some positive results (e.g., saved lives), but at a great cost, one of cosmic significance.     
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2017, 01:27:29 PM »
I watched the movie Silence with my sons the other night. Amazing film. Scorsese knocked it out of the park in terms of making a beautiful, thought provoking, and wonderfully acted piece of cinema. I thought the movie also portrayed Christianity, martyrdom, and the sincere struggle of faith quite profoundly and quite accurately. But others have said they felt the movie justified apostasy and disrespected the martyrs. I don't agree. But I felt this movie deserved its own thread for discussion. There were many themes and questions raised by this movie, but one idea that I would especially like to discuss is the question of whether it is permissible to verbally renounce Christ in order to save the lives of others. If we are more concerned about not apostatizing than we are about saving the lives of our neighbors, then is that not an apostasy in and of itself? I don't know the answer, but this is one of the difficult questions raised by this movie.

Looking forward to everyone's thoughts and opinions about this fascinating film.

Selam

Gebre Menfes Kidus

Is this movie similar to Roland Joffé's 1986 film "The Mission"?

No; very different.  "The Mission" portrays an inner Roman Catholic struggle between slave-hunters of indigenous people and the Jesuits who converted the indigenous people; and then there's also the question of whether to fight the slave-hunters with violence or with peace and love, and impending martyrdom.  "Silence" talks about whether it's okay to apostatize for the sake of removing the torture of Japanese Christians.  So it's a very different focus.

I will say that my views definitely correlate with Liza's.  I also watched the movie, and I left with sadness and disappointment.  I grew up in a culture that taught that we must stand strong in our faith in the face of culture for the sake of Christ and eternal life with Him.  Even if our own children are being killed.  Contrast the story of "Silence" to the story of the Maccabean martyrs, which are repeated in various Christian martyrdom stories as well.  It challenges our secular feelings, but it also challenges ancient Christian standards of martyrdom as well.

I didn't know about the rooster crowing until Bishop Robert Barron mentioned it in his commentary on the movie.  So that I appreciated.  But he was no Peter.  Peter repented, and returned, and was martyred.  Therefore, the ending does not really give much hope, only further disappointment.

True martyrdom was with the men who were tied to the Cross, chanting hymns as they were drowned to death.  That moved me a lot.

So great production, great thought provoking scenes, but the standards of Christian martyrdom is extremely high and cannot be compromised.  Scorsese lowers these standards and misrepresents the message of Christ as he thinks it.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 01:30:28 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2017, 01:39:13 PM »
...but one idea that I would especially like to discuss is the question of whether it is permissible to verbally renounce Christ in order to save the lives of others. If we are more concerned about not apostatizing than we are about saving the lives of our neighbors, then is that not an apostasy in and of itself?

I haven't seen this movie, and I'm not sure if you're looking for thoughts only from people who have, so perhaps my comment is out of place.  But the question seems general enough to engage. 

Your question presumes that the person offering a Christian the choice to renounce Christ in order to save others' lives is honourable enough to hold to his end of the deal if the Christian renounces Christ.  But we have documented cases in our own day when, for example, ISIS thugs force non-Muslims to convert to Islam in order to save their lives and then behead them anyway because they're just kafirs whose conversions were not genuine.  Are such people trustworthy to begin with? 

I think it comes down to trust, which is just faith.  Do you trust the guy who is willing to kill others unless you renounce a particular belief?  Or do you trust God to be able to take care of you and the people who might be killed when you refuse to renounce Christ?

Renouncing Christ to save others may come from a good intention, and perhaps it is the choice one might make in the heat of the moment (I don't think I'm martyr material myself), but it is a deception.  It's not a question of being more concerned about apostasising than saving lives, as if the choice is really selfishness vs altruism.  Such a choice may lead to some positive results (e.g., saved lives), but at a great cost, one of cosmic significance.   

Thanks very much. Good thoughts. Can't argue with that reasoning. 

Selam
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2017, 03:29:40 PM »
I did not see the movie and do not plan to, bu t I did read the novel recently because someone gave it to me.  I thought the novel was interesting in that it taught me some things about Japanese History, about which I know next to nothing.   I never heard of a Fumie until reading the book.  Like Liza, I struggle with the idea of Jesus saying "I love you" in order  for the priest to apostatize to save others.  I am not sure what I would do if I had to face the tortures that they did.  The tortures were horrendous.

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2017, 04:16:31 PM »
...but one idea that I would especially like to discuss is the question of whether it is permissible to verbally renounce Christ in order to save the lives of others. If we are more concerned about not apostatizing than we are about saving the lives of our neighbors, then is that not an apostasy in and of itself?

I haven't seen this movie, and I'm not sure if you're looking for thoughts only from people who have, so perhaps my comment is out of place.  But the question seems general enough to engage. 

Your question presumes that the person offering a Christian the choice to renounce Christ in order to save others' lives is honourable enough to hold to his end of the deal if the Christian renounces Christ.  But we have documented cases in our own day when, for example, ISIS thugs force non-Muslims to convert to Islam in order to save their lives and then behead them anyway because they're just kafirs whose conversions were not genuine.  Are such people trustworthy to begin with? 

I think it comes down to trust, which is just faith.  Do you trust the guy who is willing to kill others unless you renounce a particular belief?  Or do you trust God to be able to take care of you and the people who might be killed when you refuse to renounce Christ?

Renouncing Christ to save others may come from a good intention, and perhaps it is the choice one might make in the heat of the moment (I don't think I'm martyr material myself), but it is a deception.  It's not a question of being more concerned about apostasising than saving lives, as if the choice is really selfishness vs altruism.  Such a choice may lead to some positive results (e.g., saved lives), but at a great cost, one of cosmic significance.   
The problem I have with Gebre's question is that he says "whether it is permissible to verbally renounce Christ in order to save the lives of others."

So if its a matter of speech but if the heart/spirit remains unchanged then I'm not sure I see the problem if it saves the lives of our neighbors.

What counts is the intention to be kind. I don't see a problem of lying depending on the context. Indeed, lying becomes a virtue if it is to save the lives of others.

EDIT: I plan on seeing the film soon whenever its available at my local Redbox.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 04:24:51 PM by nothing »
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2017, 04:43:02 PM »
The problem I have with Gebre's question is that he says "whether it is permissible to verbally renounce Christ in order to save the lives of others."

So if its a matter of speech but if the heart/spirit remains unchanged then I'm not sure I see the problem if it saves the lives of our neighbors.

I also noticed "verbally" and considered the point you raised, but ultimately decided against it.  Christian confession has never been solely about what's in one's heart but also what one confesses with one's lips (cf. Rom. 10.8-13).   

Quote
What counts is the intention to be kind. I don't see a problem of lying depending on the context. Indeed, lying becomes a virtue if it is to save the lives of others.

As a general principle, perhaps.  In this specific case, two thousand years of martyrdom from Golgotha to El-Minya beg to differ. 
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2017, 04:56:11 PM »
What counts is the intention to be kind.

This isn't the Christian religion.

Quote
I don't see a problem of lying depending on the context. Indeed, lying becomes a virtue if it is to save the lives of others.

Virtue and necessity are not whims in individual minds, in the Christian tradition.

You do seem unaware that we have vast amounts of solid documentation of the Christian course of action in such cases. Christianity was illegal in Rome for hundreds of years and the Christian response is as I say very well documented.
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2017, 05:09:37 PM »
I grew up in a culture that taught that we must stand strong in our faith in the face of culture torture for the sake of Christ and eternal life with Him.
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2017, 05:30:57 PM »
This isn't the Christian religion.
I disagree. We have a responsibility, as Christians, to make moral choices in our lives as we see fit based on where we are.

That applies to lying just as much as it does giving to the poor.

You have to decide what is the best way to express your love to your neighbors.

There is no neatly drawn up plan, except and I agree with Paul here, to examine one's motives to ensure they are not self-serving.

We have to make such decisions on our own and if they are done for the right reasons they are beyond reproach.

Quote
Virtue and necessity are not whims in individual minds, in the Christian tradition.
I have to disagree with this also, as I said above only each of us can evaluate our moral choices based upon where we find ourselves which is always unique. What choices are made in one context may differ in another.

Christians don't need any traditions. They only need the gospel message.

And there it stands, ready for anyone to encounter.

Quote
You do seem unaware that we have vast amounts of solid documentation of the Christian course of action in such cases. Christianity was illegal in Rome for hundreds of years and the Christian response is as I say very well documented.
I'm not sure that matters to what I have said, Porter. Indeed those people from that period are not us. I would reject the nostalgia that Christians then are better than any period in history since.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 06:05:05 PM by nothing »
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2017, 05:46:53 PM »
I agree with Mor and Mina in principle.  I also agree with Liza except...

KeekeeChooo.....

LOL!  Kikijiro.  ;)

Last year, I attended a conference at which an Orthodox Christian from Syria spoke.  She talked about how she prepared her very young daughters to be martyred, telling them, "If the men ever come, they will try to get you to say some things [meaning the shahada].  You must never do it.  If the bring out the sword, don't be scared.  It will only hurt for a moment and then you will be with Our Lord Jesus".  She had flown over here to do some speaking engagements, leaving her husband and children in Syria, and returned to the country after the speaking engagements.  She was definitely living our Faith.  Although I sympathize with the idea of sparing others suffering whenever possible, I think that this is the ideal that Scorsese could be said to have missed.  (And that Endo missed as well, if Scorsese was true to the novel.)

All of that said, I don't think that either Endo or Scorsese can be faulted if they were trying to be historically accurate.  The Liam Neeson and Andrew Garfield characters were based on real priests who actually apostasized (The Portuguese Jesuit Cristóvão Ferreira and the Italian Jesuit Giuseppe Chiara) and lived out their lives doing precisely what the men in the film did in terms of helping the authorities root out the Kakure Kirishitans, so in that respect, it would be intellectually dishonest for Scorsese to rewrite the ending to coincide with the Christian ideal of martyrdom and make the Jesuits out to be more heroic than they actually were.  If anything, Scorsese was trying put a positive spin on these men blinking in the face of persecution, or to exonerate them for such.  I'm glad he didn't rewrite the ending to make them out to be heroic martyrs when they died as Buddhist apologists and accomplices of the Japanese authorities.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 05:48:43 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2017, 05:53:14 PM »
^Some report Ferreira recanted when he died, but others say he just died: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crist%C3%B3v%C3%A3o_Ferreira

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2017, 06:01:04 PM »
I also noticed "verbally" and considered the point you raised, but ultimately decided against it.  Christian confession has never been solely about what's in one's heart but also what one confesses with one's lips (cf. Rom. 10.8-13).
Well first of all you should already know I reject the basic premises of doctrinal Christianity of every sort and every denomination, including yours.

But still that said I think the starting point is intention, the intention to be kind to others. The actions that follow depends on the context and principles are useless in determining that.

But what's critical from this view of Christianity is intending to act out of love toward others, and generally we know our intents (I'm not saying we can't be self-deceived or self-serving, but there are practices to deal with that which even Paul points out).

My Christianity is about being a loving person, a more excellent way to live.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 06:04:51 PM by nothing »
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2017, 06:04:24 PM »
... All of that said, I don't think that either Endo or Scorsese can be faulted if they were trying to be historically accurate.  The Liam Neeson and Andrew Garfield characters were based on real priests who actually apostasized (The Portuguese Jesuit Cristóvão Ferreira and the Italian Jesuit Giuseppe Chiara) and lived out their lives doing precisely what the men in the film did in terms of helping the authorities root out the Kakure Kirishitans, so in that respect, it would be intellectually dishonest for Scorsese to rewrite the ending to coincide with the Christian ideal of martyrdom and make the Jesuits out to be more heroic than they actually were.  If anything, Scorsese was trying put a positive spin on these men blinking in the face of persecution, or to exonerate them for such.  I'm glad he didn't rewrite the ending to make them out to be heroic martyrs when they died as Buddhist apologists and accomplices of the Japanese authorities.

The objection is to Mr. Scorsese's portrayal of Christ.
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2017, 06:07:28 PM »
^Some report Ferreira recanted when he died, but others say he just died: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crist%C3%B3v%C3%A3o_Ferreira

You can read the various source material and judge for yourself here.  I am sad to say, I don't find the secondhand European sources that claim he died a martyr to be very convincing upon first read.  Lord, have mercy.  Would you have preferred Scorsese to show the Japanese authorities dragging an 80 year old Liam Neeson or Andrew Garfield out of his bed to die in the pit based on such flimsy evidence?  To be honest, it might have been the better ending for a Christian audience such as ourselves.  Unfortunately, I'm not yet convinced that it would jibe with history, and it would open the film up to charges of being revisionist Catholic propaganda.
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2017, 06:08:59 PM »
I also noticed "verbally" and considered the point you raised, but ultimately decided against it.  Christian confession has never been solely about what's in one's heart but also what one confesses with one's lips (cf. Rom. 10.8-13).
Well first of all you should already know I reject the basic premises of doctrinal Christianity of every sort and every denomination, including yours.

But still that said I think the starting point is intention, the intention to be kind to others. The actions that follow depends on the context and principles are useless in determining that.

But what's critical from this view of Christianity is intending to act out of love toward others, and generally we know our intents (I'm not saying we can't be self-deceived or self-serving, but there are practices to deal with that which even Paul points out).

My Christianity is about being a loving person, a more excellent way to live.


Nothing more needs to be said. 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2017, 06:11:16 PM »
... All of that said, I don't think that either Endo or Scorsese can be faulted if they were trying to be historically accurate.  The Liam Neeson and Andrew Garfield characters were based on real priests who actually apostasized (The Portuguese Jesuit Cristóvão Ferreira and the Italian Jesuit Giuseppe Chiara) and lived out their lives doing precisely what the men in the film did in terms of helping the authorities root out the Kakure Kirishitans, so in that respect, it would be intellectually dishonest for Scorsese to rewrite the ending to coincide with the Christian ideal of martyrdom and make the Jesuits out to be more heroic than they actually were.  If anything, Scorsese was trying put a positive spin on these men blinking in the face of persecution, or to exonerate them for such.  I'm glad he didn't rewrite the ending to make them out to be heroic martyrs when they died as Buddhist apologists and accomplices of the Japanese authorities.

The objection is to Mr. Scorsese's portrayal of Christ.

And as I have already said, I think that Scorsese missed the mark on that point and was trying to let the Jesuit apostates off the hook by advancing the argument that while it might look like they apostasized to the outside world, they did it as an act of mercy, and - a little secret between them and Christ - they were actually saved!  The criticism of Scorsese's portrayal of a Christ complicit in apostasy stands.
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2017, 06:29:06 PM »
Well first of all you should already know I reject the basic premises of doctrinal Christianity of every sort and every denomination, including yours.
Did you know Endo was Catholic?

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2017, 06:30:58 PM »
I also noticed "verbally" and considered the point you raised, but ultimately decided against it.  Christian confession has never been solely about what's in one's heart but also what one confesses with one's lips (cf. Rom. 10.8-13).
Well first of all you should already know I reject the basic premises of doctrinal Christianity of every sort and every denomination, including yours.

But still that said I think the starting point is intention, the intention to be kind to others. The actions that follow depends on the context and principles are useless in determining that.

But what's critical from this view of Christianity is intending to act out of love toward others, and generally we know our intents (I'm not saying we can't be self-deceived or self-serving, but there are practices to deal with that which even Paul points out).

My Christianity is about being a loving person, a more excellent way to live.

A Muslim can also be a loving person, as he/she believes that's the central focus of his/her religion. You don't need the gospels or Christ to believe that.
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2017, 06:32:10 PM »
I also noticed "verbally" and considered the point you raised, but ultimately decided against it.  Christian confession has never been solely about what's in one's heart but also what one confesses with one's lips (cf. Rom. 10.8-13).
Well first of all you should already know I reject the basic premises of doctrinal Christianity of every sort and every denomination, including yours.

But still that said I think the starting point is intention, the intention to be kind to others. The actions that follow depends on the context and principles are useless in determining that.

But what's critical from this view of Christianity is intending to act out of love toward others, and generally we know our intents (I'm not saying we can't be self-deceived or self-serving, but there are practices to deal with that which even Paul points out).

My Christianity is about being a loving person, a more excellent way to live.

So edgy
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2017, 10:14:57 PM »
Nothing more needs to be said.
I dunno Mor, I find your view to be self-serving. Do you know what Paul urges us to do? Put love before "faith", which seems to be the point Scorcese makes in the film (BTW I haven't seen it yet but this seems to be the source of the controversy).

This reminds me of Abraham and Isaac. Abraham should have told God "no" when commanded to sacrifice his son, that love comes before acting on faith in accordance to some divine plan that involved the murder of his own son. That would have pleased God immensely but instead Abraham failed the test, and God grits his teeth and praises his "faith."

And regarding the gospel, the only thing that counts is the transformation into a loving person. And if God's love can transform us into loving people if we accept that it can (and we can't by our force or will), then virtues will emerge out of the loving self that include caring for others even if that means losing one's life.

Which is all the reason why what you posted in response to Gebre makes you look rather morally obtuse. It's baffling to me that keeping some theological propristional statement matters more in spite of others who you could have saved, if you were in the same situation.

Go back to Matthew 25 where Jesus asks only one question: how did you treat the poor, the weak and the oppressed?

I thought Gebre's question was thoughtful and good for Scorsese making a film that challenges doctrinal Christians to ask the sort of questions he does.
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2017, 10:50:11 PM »
Nothing more needs to be said.
I dunno Mor, I find your view to be self-serving. Do you know what Paul urges us to do? Put love before "faith", which seems to be the point Scorcese makes in the film (BTW I haven't seen it yet but this seems to be the source of the controversy).

This reminds me of Abraham and Isaac. Abraham should have told God "no" when commanded to sacrifice his son, that love comes before acting on faith in accordance to some divine plan that involved the murder of his own son. That would have pleased God immensely but instead Abraham failed the test, and God grits his teeth and praises his "faith."

And regarding the gospel, the only thing that counts is the transformation into a loving person. And if God's love can transform us into loving people if we accept that it can (and we can't by our force or will), then virtues will emerge out of the loving self that include caring for others even if that means losing one's life.

Which is all the reason why what you posted in response to Gebre makes you look rather morally obtuse. It's baffling to me that keeping some theological propristional statement matters more in spite of others who you could have saved, if you were in the same situation.

Go back to Matthew 25 where Jesus asks only one question: how did you treat the poor, the weak and the oppressed?

I thought Gebre's question was thoughtful and good for Scorsese making a film that challenges doctrinal Christians to ask the sort of questions he does.

My view is self-serving only in the sense that I don't want to waste my time.  You have already made it clear that you reject "the basic premises of doctrinal Christianity of every sort and every denomination, including" mine, and would rather talk about your own Christianity.  But your Christianity is a lie. 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2017, 10:52:09 PM »
Nothing more needs to be said.
I dunno Mor, I find your view to be self-serving. Do you know what Paul urges us to do? Put love before "faith", which seems to be the point Scorcese makes in the film (BTW I haven't seen it yet but this seems to be the source of the controversy).

This reminds me of Abraham and Isaac. Abraham should have told God "no" when commanded to sacrifice his son, that love comes before acting on faith in accordance to some divine plan that involved the murder of his own son. That would have pleased God immensely but instead Abraham failed the test, and God grits his teeth and praises his "faith."

And regarding the gospel, the only thing that counts is the transformation into a loving person. And if God's love can transform us into loving people if we accept that it can (and we can't by our force or will), then virtues will emerge out of the loving self that include caring for others even if that means losing one's life.

Which is all the reason why what you posted in response to Gebre makes you look rather morally obtuse. It's baffling to me that keeping some theological propristional statement matters more in spite of others who you could have saved, if you were in the same situation.

Go back to Matthew 25 where Jesus asks only one question: how did you treat the poor, the weak and the oppressed?

I thought Gebre's question was thoughtful and good for Scorsese making a film that challenges doctrinal Christians to ask the sort of questions he does.

You're cherry picking bro!  No one denies love before faith, but your interpretation of it is flawed.  St. Paul himself praises the faith of Abraham, and Christ makes the love of God a priority before anything else, including the love of self.
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #46 on: June 04, 2017, 11:00:24 PM »
My view is self-serving only in the sense that I don't want to waste my time.  You have already made it clear that you reject "the basic premises of doctrinal Christianity of every sort and every denomination, including" mine, and would rather talk about your own Christianity.  But your Christianity is a lie.
I only do so because I think the gospel is enough.
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #47 on: June 04, 2017, 11:22:24 PM »
Nothing more needs to be said.
I dunno Mor, I find your view to be self-serving. Do you know what Paul urges us to do? Put love before "faith", which seems to be the point Scorcese makes in the film (BTW I haven't seen it yet but this seems to be the source of the controversy).

This reminds me of Abraham and Isaac. Abraham should have told God "no" when commanded to sacrifice his son, that love comes before acting on faith in accordance to some divine plan that involved the murder of his own son. That would have pleased God immensely but instead Abraham failed the test, and God grits his teeth and praises his "faith."

And regarding the gospel, the only thing that counts is the transformation into a loving person. And if God's love can transform us into loving people if we accept that it can (and we can't by our force or will), then virtues will emerge out of the loving self that include caring for others even if that means losing one's life.

Which is all the reason why what you posted in response to Gebre makes you look rather morally obtuse. It's baffling to me that keeping some theological propristional statement matters more in spite of others who you could have saved, if you were in the same situation.

Go back to Matthew 25 where Jesus asks only one question: how did you treat the poor, the weak and the oppressed?

I thought Gebre's question was thoughtful and good for Scorsese making a film that challenges doctrinal Christians to ask the sort of questions he does.

You're cherry picking bro!  No one denies love before faith, but your interpretation of it is flawed.  St. Paul himself praises the faith of Abraham, and Christ makes the love of God a priority before anything else, including the love of self.
Well the issue is with Mor placing "faith" above love and what flows from it is more self-involvement and against the loving persons Christians are. This is the existential problem that the gospel
addresses, the conflict between self and the ability to love others. Just as other religions focus on other problems (suffering, disorder, injustice, the unknown causes of misfortune, etc.).

Is Christianity really about not renouncing a set of true propositions about God which if you "believe" it make you a Christian rather than saving those out of the love we have for our neighbors? Really the stuff you and Mor post come from the sad legacy of Nicea and thereafter, thinking the right thoughts about God which this right thinking qualifies you for salvation.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2017, 12:41:42 AM »
Nothing more needs to be said.
I dunno Mor, I find your view to be self-serving. Do you know what Paul urges us to do? Put love before "faith", which seems to be the point Scorcese makes in the film (BTW I haven't seen it yet but this seems to be the source of the controversy).

This reminds me of Abraham and Isaac. Abraham should have told God "no" when commanded to sacrifice his son, that love comes before acting on faith in accordance to some divine plan that involved the murder of his own son. That would have pleased God immensely but instead Abraham failed the test, and God grits his teeth and praises his "faith."

And regarding the gospel, the only thing that counts is the transformation into a loving person. And if God's love can transform us into loving people if we accept that it can (and we can't by our force or will), then virtues will emerge out of the loving self that include caring for others even if that means losing one's life.

Which is all the reason why what you posted in response to Gebre makes you look rather morally obtuse. It's baffling to me that keeping some theological propristional statement matters more in spite of others who you could have saved, if you were in the same situation.

Go back to Matthew 25 where Jesus asks only one question: how did you treat the poor, the weak and the oppressed?

I thought Gebre's question was thoughtful and good for Scorsese making a film that challenges doctrinal Christians to ask the sort of questions he does.

You're cherry picking bro!  No one denies love before faith, but your interpretation of it is flawed.  St. Paul himself praises the faith of Abraham, and Christ makes the love of God a priority before anything else, including the love of self.
Well the issue is with Mor placing "faith" above love and what flows from it is more self-involvement and against the loving persons Christians are. This is the existential problem that the gospel
addresses, the conflict between self and the ability to love others. Just as other religions focus on other problems (suffering, disorder, injustice, the unknown causes of misfortune, etc.).

Is Christianity really about not renouncing a set of true propositions about God which if you "believe" it make you a Christian rather than saving those out of the love we have for our neighbors? Really the stuff you and Mor post come from the sad legacy of Nicea and thereafter, thinking the right thoughts about God which this right thinking qualifies you for salvation.
Spreading false witness about God-i.e. non-Nicean notions-is not to love Him.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Iconodule

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #49 on: June 05, 2017, 06:21:16 AM »
My view is self-serving only in the sense that I don't want to waste my time.  You have already made it clear that you reject "the basic premises of doctrinal Christianity of every sort and every denomination, including" mine, and would rather talk about your own Christianity.  But your Christianity is a lie.
I only do so because I think the gospel is enough.

So edgy
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline minasoliman

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #50 on: June 05, 2017, 10:27:03 AM »
Nothing more needs to be said.
I dunno Mor, I find your view to be self-serving. Do you know what Paul urges us to do? Put love before "faith", which seems to be the point Scorcese makes in the film (BTW I haven't seen it yet but this seems to be the source of the controversy).

This reminds me of Abraham and Isaac. Abraham should have told God "no" when commanded to sacrifice his son, that love comes before acting on faith in accordance to some divine plan that involved the murder of his own son. That would have pleased God immensely but instead Abraham failed the test, and God grits his teeth and praises his "faith."

And regarding the gospel, the only thing that counts is the transformation into a loving person. And if God's love can transform us into loving people if we accept that it can (and we can't by our force or will), then virtues will emerge out of the loving self that include caring for others even if that means losing one's life.

Which is all the reason why what you posted in response to Gebre makes you look rather morally obtuse. It's baffling to me that keeping some theological propristional statement matters more in spite of others who you could have saved, if you were in the same situation.

Go back to Matthew 25 where Jesus asks only one question: how did you treat the poor, the weak and the oppressed?

I thought Gebre's question was thoughtful and good for Scorsese making a film that challenges doctrinal Christians to ask the sort of questions he does.

You're cherry picking bro!  No one denies love before faith, but your interpretation of it is flawed.  St. Paul himself praises the faith of Abraham, and Christ makes the love of God a priority before anything else, including the love of self.
Well the issue is with Mor placing "faith" above love and what flows from it is more self-involvement and against the loving persons Christians are. This is the existential problem that the gospel
addresses, the conflict between self and the ability to love others. Just as other religions focus on other problems (suffering, disorder, injustice, the unknown causes of misfortune, etc.).

Is Christianity really about not renouncing a set of true propositions about God which if you "believe" it make you a Christian rather than saving those out of the love we have for our neighbors? Really the stuff you and Mor post come from the sad legacy of Nicea and thereafter, thinking the right thoughts about God which this right thinking qualifies you for salvation.

Actually, waaaaaay before Nicea, we had other theologians who you'd probably be disappointed in as well.

What is love without eternity, without the sacrificed God? A dream, a nice story, an illusion.

You choose parts of the New Testament to favor your own illusion, and you don't want to deal with the meatier parts of the same sources you claim to uphold.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 10:28:09 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2017, 11:26:24 AM »
You're cherry picking bro!  No one denies love before faith, but your interpretation of it is flawed.  St. Paul himself praises the faith of Abraham, and Christ makes the love of God a priority before anything else, including the love of self.

Nothing has a rather unique take on the Abraham story which totally doesn't match anything anywhere in the Scriptures, so I doubt St Paul is going to make a difference. 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2017, 11:37:43 AM »
Well the issue is with Mor placing "faith" above love...

Where exactly do I do that?

Quote
Is Christianity really about not renouncing a set of true propositions about God which if you "believe" it make you a Christian rather than saving those out of the love we have for our neighbors?

You have a couple of problems.  First, you divorce (your notion of) love from faith and other virtues.  Second, you reduce faith to "a set of true propositions about God which if you 'believe' it make you a Christian", demonstrating you understand neither faith nor belief.  Since you enter these discussions categorically rejecting everything we believe, it's useless to do anything more than point out the difference.

Quote
Really the stuff you and Mor post come from the sad legacy of Nicea and thereafter, thinking the right thoughts about God which this right thinking qualifies you for salvation.

The Nicene Fathers struggled and suffered for their faith.  You upload animated avatars once in a while.  The Fathers have earned my trust. 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2017, 07:41:29 PM »
Actually, waaaaaay before Nicea, we had other theologians who you'd probably be disappointed in as well.

What is love without eternity, without the sacrificed God? A dream, a nice story, an illusion.

You choose parts of the New Testament to favor your own illusion, and you don't want to deal with the meatier parts of the same sources you claim to uphold.
As I said before the whole purpose of the gospel is to be a loving person, that means caring about people now, and care about what will happen to future generations. Whether that involves an afterlife or not, is something for each person to decide. It's beyond empirical knowledge. So I reject your dubious "love without eternity" claim.

I just don't see how an afterlife enhances or detracts from an ethics of care. If there is an afterlife, it belongs to someone else because it wouldn't be me, since who I am is finite.

I'm not sure what you mean by "favoring my own illusion", the gospel narrative is enough. Are you ashamed of it, mina? Is it not enough?
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Offline RobS

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #54 on: June 05, 2017, 07:45:41 PM »
You're cherry picking bro!  No one denies love before faith, but your interpretation of it is flawed.  St. Paul himself praises the faith of Abraham, and Christ makes the love of God a priority before anything else, including the love of self.

Nothing has a rather unique take on the Abraham story which totally doesn't match anything anywhere in the Scriptures, so I doubt St Paul is going to make a difference.
You don't think the binding of Isaac is highly ironic? Well that doesn't surprise me since the point is orthodoxy doesn't it take it ironically.

Would you honestly praise a flesh-and-blood father who tried to sacrifice his son because God told him?

I would arrest him.

And if that God asked me, I'd tell him he's revolting. In the empirical world. Not in the world of stories.

What's would be your honest reaction to the sacrifice of Isaac if it wasn't a story, but an occurrence happening in front of you?

I would hope you'd try to stop that creep Abraham, not praise him as a man of faith.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 07:45:58 PM by nothing »
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Offline minasoliman

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2017, 07:47:44 PM »
Actually, I'm not ashamed of the gospel at all.  Your secular reading of the gospel narrative makes you ashamed of it.  You just happen to fit in with all your atheist friends who see your interpretation as valid in their eyes.  When atheists like you shame us for believing in the crucified and risen Christ as the foundation of our love and deification, it's not us who are ashamed.  You happen to make yourself convenient and inconsistent for your own personal opinions.

And then you try to troll us and say we are ashamed?  A hearty "lol" to that suggestion.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 07:47:54 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline RobS

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2017, 08:13:27 PM »
Where exactly do I do that?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71560.msg1459206.html#msg1459206

Quote
You have a couple of problems.  First, you divorce (your notion of) love from faith and other virtues.  Second, you reduce faith to "a set of true propositions about God which if you 'believe' it make you a Christian", demonstrating you understand neither faith nor belief.  Since you enter these discussions categorically rejecting everything we believe, it's useless to do anything more than point out the difference.
Faith isn't doctrine, Mor. I think it's fair to say faith is a differentiated social/discursive phenomenon and doesn't have a unitary meaning.

In the context of religion, don't we usually mean the acceptance of the efficacy of forces in our lives which are beyond the possibility of empirical description or confirmation; indeed often contrary to our empirical knowledge?

To me faith is exactly that - the acceptance, despite all empirical evidence, that God's love can transform us, and the symbol of that is the resurrection, which "occurred" but not as you say it occurred, not as an event in the universe.

I have faith that in some way I can't possibly understand that "occurrence". But that faith is ineffable. It can't be stated. It is unthinkable.

Also I don't rely on what people say they believe but rather how they actually act when a belief is at stake, which again seems to be what Scorcese is interested in.

And Mor, it is the honesty of real live situations we find our real beliefs, not in expressions of ideas where nothing is at stake.

The way I use belief is more in the sense of an episteme, a way of understanding the world available to a culture at a particular time.

We don't as modern people understand the world as governed by miracles. For example my car recently needed repairs, did I drive it to a priest so he could pray over it or spinkle some holy water over it? No I took it to my mechanic who followed specs for the repair work. Cars aren't fixed by miracles.

Of course it's possible for you to reject this episteme, kinda like the way creationists do, but that only shows that the episteme is dominant. The miracle-naturalism dynamic is only possible when those two views are in opposition, as they weren't in antiquity or the early modern period.

I do think Orthodoxy has a bit of dishonesty to it, or maybe better put, a conflict with modern existence.  The vast majority of modern Christians live their lives in accordance with science, even if they insist they believe in miracles either in the past or the present.

They don't live out those beliefs in practice.

And when it comes to God, I don't "believe" in God, period. The question is meaningless, since a belief can only relate to the empirical. What I do is accept the gospel, which is a story about God, as a means to salvation, which is to my mind a transformation into a loving person.

It is by exploring the transcendence of God that we can understand who we are, and more important perhaps, who we should become.

Quote
The Nicene Fathers struggled and suffered for their faith.  You upload animated avatars once in a while.  The Fathers have earned my trust.

I would take everything the Nicene Council did and put it in a museum of intolerance and stupidity. They didn't even have the courage of their own convictions that the gospel itself saves.

It was a sad day for Christianity when the Nicaea Council decreed that to qualify as a Christian you not only have to pretend to understand an incomprehensible idea, you have to lie in public and proclaim that in fact you believe it.

The irony that a religion whose scriptures emphasis peace, helping neighbors and strangers, empathizing with the down-trodden, became an ideology used in conquest and exploitation.

Sadly, it appears even the power of God can't overcome the power or ideology and self-serving rationalization.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Offline RobS

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2017, 08:29:44 PM »
Actually, I'm not ashamed of the gospel at all.  Your secular reading of the gospel narrative makes you ashamed of it.  You just happen to fit in with all your atheist friends who see your interpretation as valid in their eyes.  When atheists like you shame us for believing in the crucified and risen Christ as the foundation of our love and deification, it's not us who are ashamed.  You happen to make yourself convenient and inconsistent for your own personal opinions.

And then you try to troll us and say we are ashamed?  A hearty "lol" to that suggestion.

I'm not an atheist though, the problem atheists have is they never inquire into the way God doesn't exist.

And yes I do think you are ashamed of it. You just don't think the gospel is enough. So you have all these incoherent theological supplements to it where these mean-spirited flailing hack theologians try to force people to think the way they want them to think about God - as if that means anything.

As if God cares about the way you think about him (and how can anyone think right thoughts about a transcendent being?), as opposed to what kind of person you want to be.

I'm glad Paul contradicts all of that doctrinal garbage: Galatians 6:15. That new creation isn't some spirit living forever, it's a loving person, the greatest miracle possible. 1 Corinthians 13.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2017, 08:43:51 PM »

As if God cares about the way you think about him (and how can anyone think right thoughts about a transcendent being?), as opposed to what kind of person you want to be.


I believe He does care.  Does He need our adoration in order to survive?  No.  But, WE need it...and inasmuch as He cares for us, He cares that what we think of Him, as our thoughts define our beings, our beliefs, morals, etc....and our thought patterns are pivotal to our very salvation.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline minasoliman

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2017, 09:16:20 PM »
Actually, I'm not ashamed of the gospel at all.  Your secular reading of the gospel narrative makes you ashamed of it.  You just happen to fit in with all your atheist friends who see your interpretation as valid in their eyes.  When atheists like you shame us for believing in the crucified and risen Christ as the foundation of our love and deification, it's not us who are ashamed.  You happen to make yourself convenient and inconsistent for your own personal opinions.

And then you try to troll us and say we are ashamed?  A hearty "lol" to that suggestion.

I'm not an atheist though, the problem atheists have is they never inquire into the way God doesn't exist.

And yes I do think you are ashamed of it. You just don't think the gospel is enough. So you have all these incoherent theological supplements to it where these mean-spirited flailing hack theologians try to force people to think the way they want them to think about God - as if that means anything.

As if God cares about the way you think about him (and how can anyone think right thoughts about a transcendent being?), as opposed to what kind of person you want to be.

I'm glad Paul contradicts all of that doctrinal garbage: Galatians 6:15. That new creation isn't some spirit living forever, it's a loving person, the greatest miracle possible. 1 Corinthians 13.

Don't you care about context and integrity of what you read?  For instance you quote 1 Corinthians 13, but you ignore what the same author writes two chapter later, the source of all his ministry and writings about morals and love.  In the same chapter in Galatians 6, you skipped over the crucified Christ who becomes the central focus of why he says what he says in verse 15.

How can I be ashamed when you conveniently skip over those.  The gospel IS ENOUGH, because it's not just a text.  The gospel is Christ crucified and risen.  That's what Paul keeps repeating left and write.

You can say whatever you want about me.  I'm doing no different to you after all.  But essentially, no one needs to believe in God to appreciate the few select verses that you consider "gospel".  Your problem is you don't inquire in the way all things will cease to exist, even if you don't take your life for granted.  It's a pitiful existence, and atheists have enough integrity to accept that. You do too, but the only difference, you feel it necessary to believe in a god divorced from communion and participation in our death and resurrection.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2017, 09:18:49 PM »
If there is an afterlife, it belongs to someone else because it wouldn't be me, since who I am is finite.

You have a beginning, yes, but you were created for immortality.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2017, 09:23:42 PM »
^^^I want to add to that because I anticipate nothing will reply something along the lines of some selfish want of life forever as if it's some sort of reward.

We were made for communion with God.  Nothing quotes 1 Corinthians 13.  What better example is there for that whole chapter that can be found than God?  Essentially, we were made out of His love in His love for His love.  That's what "immortality" means.  Love is sacrificial.  It's the giving of yourself to another fully and completely.  God does this in His Son, Christ, who through His death gives us all of His divine self to us.  That's what immortality really means.  It is the uncreated love of God offered to us in the form of man.  (Ephesians 3)

So I believe in Love, who grounds us in being the type of love we become to others and to Christ.

God no longer becomes Love if I cease to exist.  He doesn't truly Love us and created us to vanity.  At that point, there is no point in returning love back to that God who doesn't love us first in His own eternal way, and functionally this becomes atheistic.  Even Islam is atheistic in that sense because God is not love in their theology.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 09:27:33 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2017, 11:08:39 PM »
Actually, waaaaaay before Nicea, we had other theologians who you'd probably be disappointed in as well.

What is love without eternity, without the sacrificed God? A dream, a nice story, an illusion.

You choose parts of the New Testament to favor your own illusion, and you don't want to deal with the meatier parts of the same sources you claim to uphold.
As I said before the whole purpose of the gospel is to be a loving person, that means caring about people now, and care about what will happen to future generations. Whether that involves an afterlife or not, is something for each person to decide. It's beyond empirical knowledge. So I reject your dubious "love without eternity" claim.

I just don't see how an afterlife enhances or detracts from an ethics of care. If there is an afterlife, it belongs to someone else because it wouldn't be me, since who I am is finite.

I'm not sure what you mean by "favoring my own illusion", the gospel narrative is enough. Are you ashamed of it, mina? Is it not enough?

I don't know what "the gospel narrative" would be, but the Gospel is eternal life, words found almost fifty times in the Evangelists.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2017, 11:11:04 PM »
Needless to say, there's an almost equal number of times hearers are called to give up their present lives, but recognizing your allergy I won't go on.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2017, 11:21:47 PM »
By the way, Nothing, this proclamation that Christianity must forswear its belief in order to make way for an "ethics of love" was developed in the Sixties (yes, by men your grandpa's age -- do you still feel fashionable?) and was quickly absorbed by the so-called mainline denominations in America. Because -- as you always warn the Orthodox -- this was the way forward, the way to survive the rising skepticism: youths raised on science would never attend church, much less seminary, if "believing" that Christianity and its scriptures were true were not sacrificed to a winking "beloving." And as fast as the new theology swept mainline denominational institutions, just as fast they lost their membership, which declined almost 70% in a few decades.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #65 on: June 07, 2017, 06:32:57 PM »
[
Like Black Robe before it, this film did not shy away from examining the flaws of both the European missionaries and their culture and those of the culture they were attempting to evangelize.


[/quote]
 The Black Robe is one of my favourite movies.  I remember reading "The Jesuit Relations" in a Canadian History course.   I look forward to buying "Silence" on dvd.  Glad I don't have to read the book to appreciate the movie.

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2017, 06:48:07 PM »
Yeah, they're both good flicks.
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #67 on: June 10, 2017, 02:09:47 AM »
Good review from Bishop Robert Barron:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Th7Tiz1cEk


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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #68 on: June 10, 2017, 12:52:57 PM »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #69 on: June 12, 2017, 09:50:47 AM »
You're cherry picking bro!  No one denies love before faith, but your interpretation of it is flawed.  St. Paul himself praises the faith of Abraham, and Christ makes the love of God a priority before anything else, including the love of self.

Nothing has a rather unique take on the Abraham story which totally doesn't match anything anywhere in the Scriptures, so I doubt St Paul is going to make a difference.
You don't think the binding of Isaac is highly ironic? Well that doesn't surprise me since the point is orthodoxy doesn't it take it ironically.

Would you honestly praise a flesh-and-blood father who tried to sacrifice his son because God told him?

I would arrest him.

And if that God asked me, I'd tell him he's revolting. In the empirical world. Not in the world of stories.

What's would be your honest reaction to the sacrifice of Isaac if it wasn't a story, but an occurrence happening in front of you?

I would hope you'd try to stop that creep Abraham, not praise him as a man of faith.

"Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."  Matthew 10:37

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #70 on: June 12, 2017, 10:39:22 AM »
"Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen." [I John 4:20]

I think St. John the Evangelist may give us an answer here. If we are willing to allow our human brothers and sisters to suffer and be killed in order to preserve the ideal of Orthodoxy then we may be guilty of superstition rather than faith. Again, I don't know the answer with any certainty. I am only inclined to think that sacrificing our own lives without committing an act of outward apostasy is certainly a noble act of martyrdom, but to relinquish others to torture and death when we could save them without violence to anyone else just seems to be a violation of the Gospel rather than a witness to the Gospel. But God alone knows the human heart, so I can't pass judgment.

Selam
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #71 on: June 12, 2017, 11:09:31 AM »
1 John 4:20 does not say anything you think at all.

I think Gebre, you need to read more of the lives of the martyrs to get a perspective of the definition of love.  Does love entail removing someone's deified life support for the sake of living in death?

Can you be a "gebre Menfes Kiddus" if you deny the Menfes Kiddus?

Matthew 10:33
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 11:11:15 AM by minasoliman »
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #72 on: June 12, 2017, 11:29:02 AM »
1 John 4:20 does not say anything you think at all.

I think Gebre, you need to read more of the lives of the martyrs to get a perspective of the definition of love.  Does love entail removing someone's deified life support for the sake of living in death?

Can you be a "gebre Menfes Kiddus" if you deny the Menfes Kiddus?

Matthew 10:33

Again, I'm merely posing questions not making pronouncements. But it is interesting that many of the people here who would condemn priests for outwardly apostatizing in order to save innocent human lives also praise soldiers who kill to save lives. I have my opinion about which is the greater apostasy. But perhaps they are both acts of apostasy. What I do know is that I wouldn't want much to do with a religion whose representatives violently sacrificed my life or the life of my wife and children in order to uphold an outward appearance of Orthodoxy.

Selam
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 11:29:34 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #73 on: June 12, 2017, 11:41:17 AM »
An additional interesting review of Silence, the novel:  https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2014/07/14/the-sinister-theology-of-endos-silence/

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #74 on: June 12, 2017, 11:45:59 AM »
"Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen." [I John 4:20]

I think St. John the Evangelist may give us an answer here. If we are willing to allow our human brothers and sisters to suffer and be killed in order to preserve the ideal of Orthodoxy then we may be guilty of superstition rather than faith. Again, I don't know the answer with any certainty. I am only inclined to think that sacrificing our own lives without committing an act of outward apostasy is certainly a noble act of martyrdom, but to relinquish others to torture and death when we could save them without violence to anyone else just seems to be a violation of the Gospel rather than a witness to the Gospel. But God alone knows the human heart, so I can't pass judgment.

Selam

Of course, this, like nothing's posts, is based on a selective reading of Scripture.  Why should the apostle John trump the Lord Jesus quoted in Matthew?  Or why should Mt 25.31-46 trump Mt 10.14-15, 22, 28, 32-33, 37? 

It's more honest to deal with the Jesus of the Gospels than to deal with the Jesus-of-the-Gospel-Bits-I-Like-Better-Than-the-Other-Bits.  Unfortunately, the latter is more popular because he's easier to understand (because he's like me), and if someone tries to counter it, the automatic supposition seems to be that his own JotGBILBTtOB is some hateful figure concocted to justify selfishness and murder (which, conveniently enough, looks like him).
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #75 on: June 12, 2017, 11:49:40 AM »
But it is interesting that many of the people here who would condemn priests for outwardly apostatizing in order to save innocent human lives also praise soldiers who kill to save lives.

There is more justification in the Scriptures for armed conflict in defence of the endangered than you will of apostasy to save the endangered.  But I would be happy to review the evidence for the latter. 
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #76 on: June 12, 2017, 11:52:10 AM »
An additional interesting review of Silence, the novel:  https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2014/07/14/the-sinister-theology-of-endos-silence/

Good review, but I agree with the commenter "Mr N" who responded to it with the following insights:
"While there are many good points made in this review of Endo's heartbreaking novel, I see it differently. For me, Father Rodrigues does make the ultimate sacrifice--he gives up his notion of a glorious martyrdom and his pride to save others who die needlessly--and he adopts as his own the shame of Christ himself. It is only when he treads upon the fumie that he truly understands this, and therein lies the novel's power. Rodrigues is not exhibiting weakness, but strength. It should also be mentioned that the church is not deterred by Rodrigues's apostasy; in fact, it thrives, without the trappings of ritual, underground, for centuries--a fact attested to by history and in Endo's own life. This is a book that every Christian should read."

Selam
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #77 on: June 12, 2017, 11:56:34 AM »
"Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen." [I John 4:20]

I think St. John the Evangelist may give us an answer here. If we are willing to allow our human brothers and sisters to suffer and be killed in order to preserve the ideal of Orthodoxy then we may be guilty of superstition rather than faith. Again, I don't know the answer with any certainty. I am only inclined to think that sacrificing our own lives without committing an act of outward apostasy is certainly a noble act of martyrdom, but to relinquish others to torture and death when we could save them without violence to anyone else just seems to be a violation of the Gospel rather than a witness to the Gospel. But God alone knows the human heart, so I can't pass judgment.

Selam

Of course, this, like nothing's posts, is based on a selective reading of Scripture.  Why should the apostle John trump the Lord Jesus quoted in Matthew?  Or why should Mt 25.31-46 trump Mt 10.14-15, 22, 28, 32-33, 37? 

It's more honest to deal with the Jesus of the Gospels than to deal with the Jesus-of-the-Gospel-Bits-I-Like-Better-Than-the-Other-Bits.  Unfortunately, the latter is more popular because he's easier to understand (because he's like me), and if someone tries to counter it, the automatic supposition seems to be that his own JotGBILBTtOB is some hateful figure concocted to justify selfishness and murder (which, conveniently enough, looks like him).

Well, let's be honest. This entire discussion will have everyone appealing to selective portions of scripture and their own interpretation of the Gospel and of the story in question. And most of us here will claim that our own understanding is the Orthodox understanding. And I think it's better to grapple with the questions than to posit easy answers, especially since none of us knows what we would do or how we would respond in the same situation. The only certain Orthodox answer here is: "Lord have mercy."

Selam
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #78 on: June 12, 2017, 12:08:24 PM »
"Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen." [I John 4:20]

I think St. John the Evangelist may give us an answer here. If we are willing to allow our human brothers and sisters to suffer and be killed in order to preserve the ideal of Orthodoxy then we may be guilty of superstition rather than faith. Again, I don't know the answer with any certainty. I am only inclined to think that sacrificing our own lives without committing an act of outward apostasy is certainly a noble act of martyrdom, but to relinquish others to torture and death when we could save them without violence to anyone else just seems to be a violation of the Gospel rather than a witness to the Gospel. But God alone knows the human heart, so I can't pass judgment.

Selam

Of course, this, like nothing's posts, is based on a selective reading of Scripture.  Why should the apostle John trump the Lord Jesus quoted in Matthew?  Or why should Mt 25.31-46 trump Mt 10.14-15, 22, 28, 32-33, 37? 

It's more honest to deal with the Jesus of the Gospels than to deal with the Jesus-of-the-Gospel-Bits-I-Like-Better-Than-the-Other-Bits.  Unfortunately, the latter is more popular because he's easier to understand (because he's like me), and if someone tries to counter it, the automatic supposition seems to be that his own JotGBILBTtOB is some hateful figure concocted to justify selfishness and murder (which, conveniently enough, looks like him).

Well, let's be honest. This entire discussion will have everyone appealing to selective portions of scripture and their own interpretation of the Gospel and of the story in question. And most of us here will claim that our own understanding is the Orthodox understanding. And I think it's better to grapple with the questions than to posit easy answers, especially since none of us knows what we would do or how we would respond in the same situation. The only certain Orthodox answer here is: "Lord have mercy."

Selam

It's true that "none of us knows what we would do or how we would respond in the same situation".  But if we are examining a theoretical question (and that's how I took your invitation in this thread), I don't think everyone will necessarily appeal to preferred proof-texts and interpretations and proclaim victory. 

If you consider the Scriptural texts, the witness of the history contained in those texts, the witness of the saints from the apostolic era to our own, etc., there's only one answer: no matter what, apostasy is not an option. 

Now, perhaps those who apostatise will have an opportunity to repent and reconcile with God and the Church, or perhaps they won't.  Perhaps the price of one's witness is an increased body count, or perhaps it won't come to that.  The Christian answer is not the nicest, cleanest, neatest, most non-violent answer.  But it is the Christian answer. 

If one can justify apostasy, one can justify almost anything, which is the convenient allure of nothing's ideology, which rejects Christianity entirely but uses some of its nicer texts to legitimise itself. 
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #79 on: June 12, 2017, 12:13:38 PM »
"Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen." [I John 4:20]

I think St. John the Evangelist may give us an answer here. If we are willing to allow our human brothers and sisters to suffer and be killed in order to preserve the ideal of Orthodoxy then we may be guilty of superstition rather than faith. Again, I don't know the answer with any certainty. I am only inclined to think that sacrificing our own lives without committing an act of outward apostasy is certainly a noble act of martyrdom, but to relinquish others to torture and death when we could save them without violence to anyone else just seems to be a violation of the Gospel rather than a witness to the Gospel. But God alone knows the human heart, so I can't pass judgment.

Selam

Of course, this, like nothing's posts, is based on a selective reading of Scripture.  Why should the apostle John trump the Lord Jesus quoted in Matthew?  Or why should Mt 25.31-46 trump Mt 10.14-15, 22, 28, 32-33, 37? 

It's more honest to deal with the Jesus of the Gospels than to deal with the Jesus-of-the-Gospel-Bits-I-Like-Better-Than-the-Other-Bits.  Unfortunately, the latter is more popular because he's easier to understand (because he's like me), and if someone tries to counter it, the automatic supposition seems to be that his own JotGBILBTtOB is some hateful figure concocted to justify selfishness and murder (which, conveniently enough, looks like him).

Well, let's be honest. This entire discussion will have everyone appealing to selective portions of scripture and their own interpretation of the Gospel and of the story in question. And most of us here will claim that our own understanding is the Orthodox understanding. And I think it's better to grapple with the questions than to posit easy answers, especially since none of us knows what we would do or how we would respond in the same situation. The only certain Orthodox answer here is: "Lord have mercy."

Selam

It's true that "none of us knows what we would do or how we would respond in the same situation".  But if we are examining a theoretical question (and that's how I took your invitation in this thread), I don't think everyone will necessarily appeal to preferred proof-texts and interpretations and proclaim victory. 

If you consider the Scriptural texts, the witness of the history contained in those texts, the witness of the saints from the apostolic era to our own, etc., there's only one answer: no matter what, apostasy is not an option. 

Now, perhaps those who apostatise will have an opportunity to repent and reconcile with God and the Church, or perhaps they won't.  Perhaps the price of one's witness is an increased body count, or perhaps it won't come to that.  The Christian answer is not the nicest, cleanest, neatest, most non-violent answer.  But it is the Christian answer. 

If one can justify apostasy, one can justify almost anything, which is the convenient allure of nothing's ideology, which rejects Christianity entirely but uses some of its nicer texts to legitimise itself.

I tend to agree with your points here. I'm just not willing to say that outward professions of Orthodoxy are more important than the preservation of the lives of our neighbors. That's my dilemma. And again, let me be clear: I dare not pass judgment on such matters, especially on those who refused to apostatize even when it resulted in the torture and deaths of others. As you rightly say, the Christian answer is not always the most logical, clean, neat and tidy answer. In fact, that's one of my many arguments for pacifism. The Cross defies almost every natural human instinct.

Selam
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #80 on: June 12, 2017, 12:31:34 PM »
I'm just not willing to say that outward professions of Orthodoxy are more important than the preservation of the lives of our neighbors. That's my dilemma.

If an ISIS thug threatens to behead the guy next to you if you do not reject Christ and embrace Islam, you don't become the murderer if you refuse the offer.  Christian witness is not a lethal weapon except to devils. 
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #81 on: June 12, 2017, 12:34:08 PM »
I appreciate that you are asking a tough and complex question with no easy answer, Gebre.  There are icons of paint and wood and there are icons of flesh and blood (the people of God).  In this case, there are also pseudo-icons of bronze created by a non-Christian state for a specific anti-Christians agenda.  I agree with all that has been said here by Mina, Mor, and others about Endo's "Christ" being a flawed representation of the real thing.  The Christ of the Gospels Mor was referencing could never utter something like the quote cited in the article:

Quote
“And then the Christ in bronze speaks to the priest: ‘Trample! Trample! I more than anyone know of the pain in your foot. Trample! It was to be trampled on by men that I was born into this world. It was to share men’s pain that I carried my cross.’”

I also agree that apostasy should never be an option.

All of that said, abstracts and hagiography aside, if some creep had a gun on a beautiful baby made in the image and likeness of God and was going to pull the trigger if you wouldn't step on an actual, consecrated icon - let alone some image crafted in bronze by non-believers specifically for the purpose of defaming Christ - how many posting in this thread would tell the guy to blow her brains out?  Would you mouth platitudes to her mother later?  Again, I'm not advocating apostasy here, but I am acknowledging that this isn't necessarily a question that can be solved in a cold, clinical matter by arguments or proof-texting.  The Syrian mother I referenced in my earlier post, she is certainly putting her money where her mouth is, so to speak, for her treasure is obviously not in this world, but with respect to everybody posting, I'm not so sure about the rest of us, me certainly included.  Again, I am not arguing on the side of Endo's false Christ or of apostasy here, I'm just saying that I don't know if I could stand by and watch living people killed or tortured when I knew I could make it stop.  While at the end of the day I agree heartily with Mor and Mina's recent posts in this thread, I acknowledge, Gebre, that this is not an easy question to answer and that it is one that deserves to be wrestled with, whether or not we like Endo and Scorsese's ideas on the subject.
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #82 on: June 12, 2017, 01:36:23 PM »
I'm just not willing to say that outward professions of Orthodoxy are more important than the preservation of the lives of our neighbors. That's my dilemma.

If an ISIS thug threatens to behead the guy next to you if you do not reject Christ and embrace Islam, you don't become the murderer if you refuse the offer.  Christian witness is not a lethal weapon except to devils.

Bingo!

Earlier Gebre you mentioned the apostasy of murder.  I want to appeal to your pacifism and say that denying Christ even outwardly is also murder, because you lead others astray with you.  Remember Christ is Life, and you have to partake of His broken body and drink the cup Christ drank in order to actualize the True Life He lived in yourself.  His death on the Cross lead to the horrific deaths of most of His disciples and apostles, but to them all, it was a salvific witnessing.  Consider therefore Christ as your example, who did not deny His Father to the Cross, but remained obedient, even though He knew His followers will follow a similar fate.

If Christ cannot prevent the death of His brothers and sisters, but encourages them to stand strong, then you are in no position to get in the way of others who should partake of the Kingdom through the Cross.

But I may also add:  it's better to flee persecution than to go right to it when you're not spiritually ready.  The story of Silence shows two priests, one of them who was not spiritually ready to handle the situation.  I think we are all blessed in a certain way to fight our demonic battles where we live.  But if and when the time comes, we know what the answer is.  The question is not what the gospels teach (because the answer is clear), but if we can handle what the gospel teaches.  The question Christ asks all of us: "can you drink the cup I drink?"
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 01:42:04 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #83 on: June 12, 2017, 01:43:23 PM »
I'm just not willing to say that outward professions of Orthodoxy are more important than the preservation of the lives of our neighbors. That's my dilemma.

If an ISIS thug threatens to behead the guy next to you if you do not reject Christ and embrace Islam, you don't become the murderer if you refuse the offer.  Christian witness is not a lethal weapon except to devils.

I agree. I never said that refusing to apostatize was equivalent to murder. But I stand by what I said above. It remains my dilemma. I wish I shared your sense of certainty. Pray for me.

Selam
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #84 on: June 12, 2017, 01:45:09 PM »
I appreciate that you are asking a tough and complex question with no easy answer, Gebre.  There are icons of paint and wood and there are icons of flesh and blood (the people of God).  In this case, there are also pseudo-icons of bronze created by a non-Christian state for a specific anti-Christians agenda.  I agree with all that has been said here by Mina, Mor, and others about Endo's "Christ" being a flawed representation of the real thing.  The Christ of the Gospels Mor was referencing could never utter something like the quote cited in the article:

Quote
“And then the Christ in bronze speaks to the priest: ‘Trample! Trample! I more than anyone know of the pain in your foot. Trample! It was to be trampled on by men that I was born into this world. It was to share men’s pain that I carried my cross.’”

I also agree that apostasy should never be an option.

All of that said, abstracts and hagiography aside, if some creep had a gun on a beautiful baby made in the image and likeness of God and was going to pull the trigger if you wouldn't step on an actual, consecrated icon - let alone some image crafted in bronze by non-believers specifically for the purpose of defaming Christ - how many posting in this thread would tell the guy to blow her brains out?  Would you mouth platitudes to her mother later?  Again, I'm not advocating apostasy here, but I am acknowledging that this isn't necessarily a question that can be solved in a cold, clinical matter by arguments or proof-texting.  The Syrian mother I referenced in my earlier post, she is certainly putting her money where her mouth is, so to speak, for her treasure is obviously not in this world, but with respect to everybody posting, I'm not so sure about the rest of us, me certainly included.  Again, I am not arguing on the side of Endo's false Christ or of apostasy here, I'm just saying that I don't know if I could stand by and watch living people killed or tortured when I knew I could make it stop.  While at the end of the day I agree heartily with Mor and Mina's recent posts in this thread, I acknowledge, Gebre, that this is not an easy question to answer and that it is one that deserves to be wrestled with, whether or not we like Endo and Scorsese's ideas on the subject.

Thank you brother. You summed it up well. May God help us all.

Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #85 on: June 12, 2017, 01:46:21 PM »
I'm just not willing to say that outward professions of Orthodoxy are more important than the preservation of the lives of our neighbors. That's my dilemma.

If an ISIS thug threatens to behead the guy next to you if you do not reject Christ and embrace Islam, you don't become the murderer if you refuse the offer.  Christian witness is not a lethal weapon except to devils.

Bingo!

Earlier Gebre you mentioned the apostasy of murder.  I want to appeal to your pacifism and say that denying Christ even outwardly is also murder, because you lead others astray with you.  Remember Christ is Life, and you have to partake of His broken body and drink the cup Christ drank in order to actualize the True Life He lived in yourself.  His death on the Cross lead to the horrific deaths of most of His disciples and apostles, but to them all, it was a salvific witnessing.  Consider therefore Christ as your example, who did not deny His Father to the Cross, but remained obedient, even though He knew His followers will follow a similar fate.

If Christ cannot prevent the death of His brothers and sisters, but encourages them to stand strong, then you are in no position to get in the way of others who should partake of the Kingdom through the Cross.

But I may also add:  it's better to flee persecution than to go right to it when you're not spiritually ready.  The story of Silence shows two priests, one of them who was not spiritually ready to handle the situation.  I think we are all blessed in a certain way to fight our demonic battles where we live.  But if and when the time comes, we know what the answer is.  The question is not what the gospels teach (because the answer is clear), but if we can handle what the gospel teaches.  The question Christ asks all of us: "can you drink the cup I drink?"

I don't argue with that.

Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #86 on: August 11, 2017, 06:18:34 PM »
I'm not sure what you mean by "favoring my own illusion", the gospel narrative is enough. Are you ashamed of it, mina? Is it not enough?

I must ask, when you read The Gospel or any part of The Bilbe, do you do so alone? As you need no other doctrine nor traditions is it the case no one or thing is needed for your understanding and practice of The Message? No, scratch the last part of my question since one may not "practice" without another our directives from Him. But is salvation determined by you and God alone and thus need no other precedence, examples nor guides?
I admire your strength so I must query when your wife asks,"Does this dress make me look fat"?, what does The Gospel have you respond?
Oh, saw the movie,,never buy movies but I purchased this one.
There is one part, years later when both now Buddhist and former Christian priests, are sitting, writing, and the Liam-character turns and utters one Christian sentence to his friend, who in disbelief asks him to repeat with the answer being the same as God's response to many of our desires & passion fulfillment, at that moment the whole movie coalesced to it's name and Showed that the old guy never did put Christ outside of his life.
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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #87 on: August 11, 2017, 06:36:26 PM »
Gebre, and all of you that responded, thanks for this thread. I used this movie to note reactions to faith in friends I have. I am rotten like that.
And Liz, you bug me (and possibly all of us) with your first post. I see no one took that post straight on...heavy duty that, and thanks.

To those who live in their heads, it is seen that when rubber & road meet things do change.
For any that have been where the two touch, we thank God finding joy in His mercy.
This movie exposed it well.
I always found Scorsese to be slime-ball with all his glorifying gratuitous violence but this one did score tops with me.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 06:37:24 PM by LenInSebastopol »
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #88 on: August 11, 2017, 08:50:30 PM »
And Liz, you bug me (and possibly all of us) with your first post. I see no one took that post straight on...heavy duty that, and thanks.

LOL!

...I am amazed my words could actually have any impact on anyone, much less ALL of you.  This is great!!!
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #89 on: August 15, 2017, 02:17:28 PM »
I finally saw it this weekend and was shocked by how good it was and the fact that it was made and released at all. I was shocked not only because of the prevailing Hollywood culture but also that the last Scorsese movie I saw, Wolf of Wall Street, struck me as an utterly shallow glamorization, disguised as expose/ critique, of Wall Street hedonism. I have liked some Scorsese films but he's never been a favorite of mine. Apart from that, I was shocked that he was able to get the film made and distributed. A grim spiritual drama with no love interest, no happy ending- even a big name like Scorsese doesn't have the power to push that through, I would think. But here it is.

I've seen the critiques of the film essentially presenting the Jesuit's apostasy as a laudable choice. The conclusion was far too ambiguous for me to agree. Maybe I'll say more later...
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Offline juliogb

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Re: "SILENCE" (The movie)
« Reply #90 on: August 25, 2017, 11:50:53 PM »
I just was, I really liked it, but I have mixed feelings about the plot. It is a punch in the stomach I'd say.