Author Topic: Thoughts on Pope Francis?  (Read 3736 times)

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #90 on: July 16, 2017, 06:04:20 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???
The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
what nonsense are you talking about, we haven't had a true pope since 1958
How many true Bishops do you have?
If they haven't made a pope in nearly 60 years and your bishops are dwindling what makes you think there will be one in the future. Do the few bishops that aren't in nursing homes that are sedevacantist believe similarly enough to elect or consecrate a bishop to be pope? Why not follow Michael Bawden, at least they tried.


The seminary flunky whose mom elected him Pope?  That's called trying?
I don't take pope Michael seriously, but I think that is where sedevacantism ends up. Who will elect the next pope, the residents of Rome? They have a few wacky bishops that have questionable lines and a few that are valid but very old. I don't think there is any hope in sedevacantism, even in the less tinfoil hat parts. That is why I didn't go that direction. So I guess what I was trying to say was, if the Church has gone so long without a leader and there is no change in sight, you may as well be following pope Michael.
you seem confused, as if sedevacantism is a religion..it's not...you can say there's no hope in the conciliar church ever turning Catholic...what happens in the future is not for me to say,God will sort it out
So where is the Catholic Church?

St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."

Further, it should be noted that the Church has defined that heretics are the gates of Hell which Our Lord mentioned in Matthew 16! 
Pope Vigilius, Second Council of Constantinople, 553: “… we bear in mind what was promised about the holy Church and Him who said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (by these we understand the death-dealing tongues of heretics)…”3 
Pope St. Leo IX, Sept. 2, 1053: “The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter… because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction, it would never be overcome.”4 
St. Thomas Aquinas (+1262): “Wisdom may fill the hearts of the faithful, and put to silence the dread folly of heretics, fittingly referred to as the gates of Hell.”5 (Intro. To Catena Aurea.)

Gosh, you guys are even sadder than I imagined.
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Offline Quinault

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #91 on: July 16, 2017, 06:06:52 PM »
I have a great deal of respect for how Pope Francis has chosen to live a more simple life compared to his predecessors.

I have an even greater respect for his public support of breastfeeding.
Why would breastfeeding be an issue?

Most Catholic (and quite a few Orthodox) women I've known are told they must leave the service if they need to breastfeed their child. This is particularly awkward when baby decides during the baptismal service that they need to eat RIGHT FREAKING NOW.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 06:07:29 PM by Quinault »

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #92 on: July 16, 2017, 07:18:47 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???

The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
what nonsense are you talking about, we haven't had a true pope since 1958

Why are you so confident Pope John XXIII was not a pope?

Why is Pope Pius XII off the hook for you guys? He hired Abp. Bugnini in the first place, mucked up the Holy Week services, suppressed the ancient system of ranking feasts, suppressed most of the octaves, replaced the traditional Mass for the Assumption, tried to replace the Vulgate Psalter, etc.

Why is Pope Pius X off the hook for you guys? He got the modern liturgical ball rolling; he suppressed the ancient Roman order of chanting the psalter, killed the tradition of chanting Psalms 148-150 at Lauds, divorced feast from psalmody by removing festal psalms from most feasts, invented novel rankings for octaves, replaced the traditional suffrages at Lauds and Vespers, etc.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

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Offline servulus

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #93 on: July 16, 2017, 08:17:41 PM »

St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."

Further, it should be noted that the Church has defined that heretics are the gates of Hell which Our Lord mentioned in Matthew 16! 
Pope Vigilius, Second Council of Constantinople, 553: “… we bear in mind what was promised about the holy Church and Him who said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (by these we understand the death-dealing tongues of heretics)…”3 
Pope St. Leo IX, Sept. 2, 1053: “The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter… because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction, it would never be overcome.”4 
St. Thomas Aquinas (+1262): “Wisdom may fill the hearts of the faithful, and put to silence the dread folly of heretics, fittingly referred to as the gates of Hell.”5 (Intro. To Catena Aurea.)
When I was a traditional Catholic we clung to that quote by St. Athanasius as well. For me, it seemed that if sedevacantism were true then the Church was an invisible church. How would you know if the gates of hell had prevailed? There is nothing there except the hope that God will somehow intervene and supply a hierarchy.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 08:18:20 PM by servulus »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #94 on: July 16, 2017, 08:19:54 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???

The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
what nonsense are you talking about, we haven't had a true pope since 1958

Why are you so confident Pope John XXIII was not a pope?

Why is Pope Pius XII off the hook for you guys? He hired Abp. Bugnini in the first place, mucked up the Holy Week services, suppressed the ancient system of ranking feasts, suppressed most of the octaves, replaced the traditional Mass for the Assumption, tried to replace the Vulgate Psalter, etc.

Why is Pope Pius X off the hook for you guys? He got the modern liturgical ball rolling; he suppressed the ancient Roman order of chanting the psalter, killed the tradition of chanting Psalms 148-150 at Lauds, divorced feast from psalmody by removing festal psalms from most feasts, invented novel rankings for octaves, replaced the traditional suffrages at Lauds and Vespers, etc.

Probe too deeply in this vein, and the thread might turn into Politics forum material.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #95 on: July 16, 2017, 08:39:07 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???

The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
what nonsense are you talking about, we haven't had a true pope since 1958

Why are you so confident Pope John XXIII was not a pope?

Why is Pope Pius XII off the hook for you guys? He hired Abp. Bugnini in the first place, mucked up the Holy Week services, suppressed the ancient system of ranking feasts, suppressed most of the octaves, replaced the traditional Mass for the Assumption, tried to replace the Vulgate Psalter, etc.

Why is Pope Pius X off the hook for you guys? He got the modern liturgical ball rolling; he suppressed the ancient Roman order of chanting the psalter, killed the tradition of chanting Psalms 148-150 at Lauds, divorced feast from psalmody by removing festal psalms from most feasts, invented novel rankings for octaves, replaced the traditional suffrages at Lauds and Vespers, etc.

I agree.   This is the major problem with the SSPX and the diocesan Latin masses; they are using a liturgy that was already severely damaged.  The changes made by Pope Pius XII are corruptions, unlike those made by Pius X, which could be said to be repair and restoration of Gregorian chant, similiar in some respects to the traditional liturgical approach favored by ROCOR.

I don't think any of these changes by Pius XII were imported back into the WRO liturgy; someone seeking the purest possible Western Rite experience should seek out the Western Rite Orthodox.   

However, we OOs at present aren't in that business.  Although I have heard there was a Western Rite community in Sri Lanka under the IOC, which died off.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #96 on: July 16, 2017, 08:51:59 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???

The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
what nonsense are you talking about, we haven't had a true pope since 1958

Why are you so confident Pope John XXIII was not a pope?

Why is Pope Pius XII off the hook for you guys? He hired Abp. Bugnini in the first place, mucked up the Holy Week services, suppressed the ancient system of ranking feasts, suppressed most of the octaves, replaced the traditional Mass for the Assumption, tried to replace the Vulgate Psalter, etc.

Why is Pope Pius X off the hook for you guys? He got the modern liturgical ball rolling; he suppressed the ancient Roman order of chanting the psalter, killed the tradition of chanting Psalms 148-150 at Lauds, divorced feast from psalmody by removing festal psalms from most feasts, invented novel rankings for octaves, replaced the traditional suffrages at Lauds and Vespers, etc.

I agree.   This is the major problem with the SSPX and the diocesan Latin masses; they are using a liturgy that was already severely damaged.

That's the major problem?

Quote
I don't think any of these changes by Pius XII were imported back into the WRO liturgy; someone seeking the purest possible Western Rite experience should seek out the Western Rite Orthodox.

What's your basis for saying these things?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Offline Jackson02

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #98 on: September 26, 2017, 08:42:26 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.
Nah i'm good.
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Offline Jackson02

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #99 on: September 26, 2017, 08:45:04 PM »
Having been raised in the Roman Church, and the Aglican Church, I was fonder by far of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.
There is practically no difference between Pope Francis and Pope John Paul II, both were and are ecumenists which sought and seek to modernize the Roman church by saying that Vatican II is irreversible. Pope Benedict XVI was a little better because he actually brought back some of the things that hadn't been used in the Roman Catholic church for years.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 08:48:19 PM by Jackson02 »
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #100 on: September 26, 2017, 08:58:45 PM »
The Pope is like the head of the water department; he has his job to do and it somehow affects me but I don't dwell on his person. People think that's what Catholicism's about and they're wrong.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #101 on: September 26, 2017, 09:18:39 PM »
The Pope is like the head of the water department; he has his job to do and it somehow affects me but I don't dwell on his person. People think that's what Catholicism's about and they're wrong.

LOL.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #102 on: September 26, 2017, 10:18:55 PM »

St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."

Further, it should be noted that the Church has defined that heretics are the gates of Hell which Our Lord mentioned in Matthew 16! 
Pope Vigilius, Second Council of Constantinople, 553: “… we bear in mind what was promised about the holy Church and Him who said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (by these we understand the death-dealing tongues of heretics)…”3 
Pope St. Leo IX, Sept. 2, 1053: “The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter… because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction, it would never be overcome.”4 
St. Thomas Aquinas (+1262): “Wisdom may fill the hearts of the faithful, and put to silence the dread folly of heretics, fittingly referred to as the gates of Hell.”5 (Intro. To Catena Aurea.)
When I was a traditional Catholic we clung to that quote by St. Athanasius as well. For me, it seemed that if sedevacantism were true then the Church was an invisible church. How would you know if the gates of hell had prevailed? There is nothing there except the hope that God will somehow intervene and supply a hierarchy.

Why not Zoidberg Conclavism?
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Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #103 on: September 26, 2017, 11:18:42 PM »
The Pope is like the head of the water department; he has his job to do and it somehow affects me but I don't dwell on his person. People think that's what Catholicism's about and they're wrong.

Except that according to Unam Sanctam, it is "absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to" this particular water department head.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #104 on: September 26, 2017, 11:39:53 PM »
The Pope is like the head of the water department; he has his job to do and it somehow affects me but I don't dwell on his person. People think that's what Catholicism's about and they're wrong.
Except that according to Unam Sanctam, it is "absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to" this particular water department head.
I find it amazing how Catholics, devout or not, arbitrarily swing between the "water department head" and the Unam Sanctam extremes to defend the indefensible supremacy of the pope.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #105 on: September 26, 2017, 11:50:30 PM »
There is practically no difference between Pope Francis and Pope John Paul II, both were and are ecumenists which sought and seek to modernize the Roman church by saying that Vatican II is irreversible. Pope Benedict XVI was a little better because he actually brought back some of the things that hadn't been used in the Roman Catholic church for years.
Pope JPII was a brilliant philosopher and an top Catholic theologian, unlike Pope FI, whose foot can usually be found in his mouth.

However, one trait that unites all popes since Pope PVI is their nonchalance about the liturgy.  Truly, Pope BXVI did try to improve the state of the liturgy, already eroded by his successor, but neither him and the other popes did anything to make the public liturgies in the Vatican glorious worship.  Again, Pope BXVI did use to celebrate less public or private liturgies gloriously, but even the pinnacle of liturgy, Pascha, televised to the whole world has been pretty much more of the same for half a century.

I guess that the there are swamp creatures in the Vatican and any maverick who dares to make the liturgy glorious again (MLGA©) is bound to be fiercely resisted and sabotaged to failure.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 11:50:40 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline Jackson02

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #106 on: September 27, 2017, 12:41:21 AM »
There is practically no difference between Pope Francis and Pope John Paul II, both were and are ecumenists which sought and seek to modernize the Roman church by saying that Vatican II is irreversible. Pope Benedict XVI was a little better because he actually brought back some of the things that hadn't been used in the Roman Catholic church for years.
Pope JPII was a brilliant philosopher and an top Catholic theologian, unlike Pope FI, whose foot can usually be found in his mouth.

However, one trait that unites all popes since Pope PVI is their nonchalance about the liturgy.  Truly, Pope BXVI did try to improve the state of the liturgy, already eroded by his successor, but neither him and the other popes did anything to make the public liturgies in the Vatican glorious worship.  Again, Pope BXVI did use to celebrate less public or private liturgies gloriously, but even the pinnacle of liturgy, Pascha, televised to the whole world has been pretty much more of the same for half a century.

I guess that the there are swamp creatures in the Vatican and any maverick who dares to make the liturgy glorious again (MLGA©) is bound to be fiercely resisted and sabotaged to failure.
True Pope Benedict XVI could have done a lot more to help the Roman church and was still an ecumenist, I guess they will never get an actual Roman Catholic Pope that would condemn Vatican II as heresy.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 12:43:37 AM by Jackson02 »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #107 on: September 27, 2017, 01:27:47 AM »
There is practically no difference between Pope Francis and Pope John Paul II, both were and are ecumenists which sought and seek to modernize the Roman church by saying that Vatican II is irreversible. Pope Benedict XVI was a little better because he actually brought back some of the things that hadn't been used in the Roman Catholic church for years.
Pope JPII was a brilliant philosopher and an top Catholic theologian, unlike Pope FI, whose foot can usually be found in his mouth.

However, one trait that unites all popes since Pope PVI is their nonchalance about the liturgy.  Truly, Pope BXVI did try to improve the state of the liturgy, already eroded by his successor, but neither him and the other popes did anything to make the public liturgies in the Vatican glorious worship.  Again, Pope BXVI did use to celebrate less public or private liturgies gloriously, but even the pinnacle of liturgy, Pascha, televised to the whole world has been pretty much more of the same for half a century.

I guess that the there are swamp creatures in the Vatican and any maverick who dares to make the liturgy glorious again (MLGA©) is bound to be fiercely resisted and sabotaged to failure.
True Pope Benedict XVI could have done a lot more to help the Roman church and was still an ecumenist, I guess they will never get an actual Roman Catholic Pope that would condemn Vatican II as heresy.

They can't without undermining the credibility of the magisterium, can they?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 01:29:30 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline Anastasia1

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #108 on: September 27, 2017, 02:01:45 AM »
Negatives: he is vague with media in order to appear politically correct; he's not Orthodox
Positives: he has increased awareness for more social services and seems to have a genuine kindness, humility, and simplicity of heart
You might be on to something here.
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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #109 on: September 27, 2017, 02:55:15 AM »
Negatives: he is vague with media in order to appear politically correct; he's not Orthodox
Positives: he has increased awareness for more social services and seems to have a genuine kindness, humility, and simplicity of heart
You might be on to something here.

+1

Negatives: I think Pope Francis is much too loose and imprecise with his language. And patriarchs are supposed to be very precise with their language, because they are entrusted leaders on doctrine and morality. Better for a pope to be boring and precise than poetic and ambiguous. I'm also not a fan of his advocacy of the climate change movement. Why can't he just be an authentic environmentalist that finds his environmentalist philosophy in the mandate and ethic of the scriptures? Surely he's informed enough to know that the global warming movement is linked to the ideology of population control, which advocates abortion and birth control as environmentally responsible courses of action.

Positives: I appreciate the Pope's consistent life ethic and his articulation of the "seamless garment" of social justice, of which opposing abortion is an essential element. And he has been clear on this point. I also appreciate his ability to embrace the "liberation theology" ethic of prioritizing the "least of these" while condemning the communism and violence that permeated much of Latin American liberation theology.

Overall I think he is a sincere man who is trying to emphasize tolerance and compassion for all of God's creation. But I think in his efforts to do so he compromises the rigid doctrinal and moral precision that is vitally necessary to achieve true compassion and true tolerance.

Selam



« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 02:56:30 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #110 on: September 27, 2017, 03:01:26 AM »
Negatives: he is vague with media in order to appear politically correct; he's not Orthodox
Positives: he has increased awareness for more social services and seems to have a genuine kindness, humility, and simplicity of heart
You might be on to something here.

+1

Negatives: I think Pope Francis is much too loose and imprecise with his language. And patriarchs are supposed to be very precise with their language, because they are entrusted leaders on doctrine and morality. Better for a pope to be boring and precise than poetic and ambiguous. I'm also not a fan of his advocacy of the climate change movement. Why can't he just be an authentic environmentalist that finds his environmentalist philosophy in the mandate and ethic of the scriptures? Surely he's informed enough to know that the global warming movement is linked to the ideology of population control, which advocates abortion and birth control as environmentally responsible courses of action.

Positives: I appreciate the Pope's consistent life ethic and his articulation of the "seamless garment" of social justice, of which opposing abortion is an essential element. And he has been clear on this point. I also appreciate his ability to embrace the "liberation theology" ethic of prioritizing the "least of these" while condemning the communism and violence that permeated much of Latin American liberation theology.

Overall I think he is a sincere man who is trying to emphasize tolerance and compassion for all of God's creation. But I think in his efforts to do so he compromises the rigid doctrinal and moral precision that is vitally necessary to achieve true compassion and true tolerance.

Selam

+1
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #111 on: September 27, 2017, 09:22:17 AM »
... I guess they will never get an actual Roman Catholic Pope that would condemn Vatican II as heresy.
They can't without undermining the credibility of the magisterium, can they?
First off, popes could at least clarify it.  For instance, jurisdiction.  It was a Western council, indifferent to the East, even with a token participation of Eastern bishops, and many of its statements cannot but be about governance, discipline or rite of the Roman Church.  Again, many statements were just about governance, which may change and even pastorally "bent" by bishops.  Even the English title of some of its documents includes the word "dogmatic", it is clearly not wholly so.  And, once the council is thus framed, it doesn't even need to be declared heretic, which it was, but just a pastoral one and subject to review.

Of course, the odds are nil, if it depends on the Roman hierarchy and faithful, too far gone the deep end.  Only a miracle would do it.  :angel:
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ!