Author Topic: Thoughts on Pope Francis?  (Read 3917 times)

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Offline Jackson02

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Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« on: May 27, 2017, 10:59:30 AM »
What are some of your thoughts on the current Pope? Just curious.  :)
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Offline youssef

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2017, 11:36:11 AM »
You should ask Pope Tawadros. :D

Offline coptic orthodox boy

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2017, 12:09:49 PM »
Not a big fan (albeit his namesake was my patron when I was Catholic).

Offline Diego

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2017, 12:33:03 PM »
Having been raised in the Roman Church, and the Aglican Church, I was fonder by far of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2017, 02:39:21 PM »
Negatives: he is vague with media in order to appear politically correct; he's not Orthodox
Positives: he has increased awareness for more social services and seems to have a genuine kindness, humility, and simplicity of heart
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2017, 03:10:10 PM »
My favorite Roman Pope so far...

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2017, 03:19:22 PM »
The Mrs. wishes he could live with the Trads rather than knock them.

Offline AlioshaKaramazov

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2017, 03:32:15 PM »
I'm torn. As an Orthodox inquirer, I should appreciate him for single-handedly discrediting Papal infallibility (I should note however that he isn't the reason I abandoned Roman Catholicism). As a "traditionalist", I don't like his modernist Jesuitry and his distaste for the traditional Liturgy and aesthetics.

Offline christiane777

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2017, 03:36:27 PM »
What are some of your thoughts on the current Pope? Just curious.  :)

Much more popular with non-Catholics than Catholics - at least than with more traditional 'orthodox' Catholics.  Not a bad man, not a great man.   Personally I am kind of indifferent to him; I think as Pope he has been quite divisive, polemic.  He can come off as quite abrasive. He tends the sheep that agree with his views, his politics.  That is about it.  I don't think he is what the RCC needs right now, though it is probably what it deserves.  Liberal Protestants and many Orthodox seem to see much to like in him for a variety of reasons, but I don't see that in many Catholics.  I was much more inspired by Saint John Paul II and Pope Benedict.  More empathy.  Pope Francis has kind of an unfortunate way of just leaving me flat, tired, discontent, even a little sad.  Mainly because he is so emboldening to the worst of the worst in terms of 'bringing Catholicism into the modern world.'  Throwing off those 'doctrine' shackles.  Riding a bicycle without brakes.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 03:49:42 PM by christiane777 »
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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2017, 03:42:51 PM »
What are some of your thoughts on the current Pope? Just curious.  :)

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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2017, 04:16:10 PM »
Continuing the slow work of turning the RCC into a bigger Anglican Communion. So, it depends on whether that's good or not.
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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2017, 05:40:57 PM »
It doesn't really matter. I am positive, it doesn't matter at all.  8)
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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2017, 09:31:30 AM »
The American right-wing hates him and calls him a socalist so he must be good. 8)

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2017, 09:46:08 AM »
It would be helpful if non-OO members might indicate their status; the OP seems to be asking those of us who follow the miaphysite faith of St. Cyril of our views of him.

In my opinion, he is a dangerous crypto-Nestorian modernist whose neo-Peronist political views are intolerable, who has been absolutely brutal in his treatment of traditionalist Catholics.  That said, his modernism is such that if the OO communion desires to reconcile with the RCC on our preferred terms, we might have a fair shot under him; I have a feeling he might willingly concede various disputed points to us, including full recognition of our autocephaly, our bishops having veto powers over Roman internal affairs, and Pope Leo I being in error, purely for the sake of unity, particularly if he thought he could not do a deal with the Eastern Orthodox.  He might agree to all of this just to spite the traditionalists in his own communion.  It would probably be a bit rapacious and expolitative for us to avail ourselves of the vast concessions I expect we could extract from him, to the extent that it would cause a schism in the RCC and cause many of them to hate us, so, perhaps its better to wait for the next guy, and work towards reunion with a Pope who actually has some solid conviction when it comes to matters of doctrine, as opposed to a mere politician like Pope Francis. 

In other words, we don't want to cheat when it comes to ecumenical reunion; we need an honest deal, and Pope Francis might either be guillable or else promise that which his church would refuse to deliver on.

What alarms me is how close our Pope Tawadros II came to endorsing the anti-Nicene proposal of Pope Francis regarding the dating of Pascha, which would have ripped the OO church apart.
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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2017, 06:13:06 PM »
Pope Francis is the typical Latin American bishop of his generation, who, under his watch, presided over the decimation of the Catholic faith in the continent, in some cases down to a minority from almost absolute majority (e.g., Guatemala and Honduras).  The pope, like his Latin brethren bishops, get very positive feedback from the secular media when they bash faithful Catholics and water down Church doctrine, so they vainly act accordingly, doing anything to please the cameras and the glitterati. They bash the faithful by criticizing their piety and devotions, especially popular ones, while proclaiming to be bishops of the people.  They water down doctrine by relying heavily on Hegelian dialectics and thus embracing relativism, flirting with heresy.

Pope Francis, in particular, is, as it couldn't be otherwise, Jesuitical in his actions, which some might call utilitarian, but others call dishonest.  The damage that he's done to Latin Catholicism will have the same effect worldwide as it did in Latin America: those outside will welcome the "conversion" of the Church to worldliness; the lukewarm will be affirmed in it and will fully abandon the faith; the pious will bravely linger on, but whose spinelessness will not inspire the next generation; the devout will jump ship to Protestant sects.

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On the bright side, either the dogma of papal infallibility will be revised, i.e. developed, to state that the Holy Spirit protects the Church from papal heresies or Catholics will realize that the Orthodox have been right about the papacy all along.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 06:23:14 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2017, 06:18:03 PM »
On the bright side, either the dogma of papal infallibility will be revised, i.e. developed, to state that the Holy Spirit protects the Church from papal heresies or Catholics will realize that the Orthodox have been right about the papacy all along.

Dream on.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2017, 07:13:20 PM »
Pope Francis is the typical Latin American bishop of his generation, who, under his watch, presided over the decimation of the Catholic faith in the continent, in some cases down to a minority from almost absolute majority (e.g., Guatemala and Honduras).  The pope, like his Latin brethren bishops, get very positive feedback from the secular media when they bash faithful Catholics and water down Church doctrine, so they vainly act accordingly, doing anything to please the cameras and the glitterati. They bash the faithful by criticizing their piety and devotions, especially popular ones, while proclaiming to be bishops of the people.  They water down doctrine by relying heavily on Hegelian dialectics and thus embracing relativism, flirting with heresy.

Pope Francis, in particular, is, as it couldn't be otherwise, Jesuitical in his actions, which some might call utilitarian, but others call dishonest.  The damage that he's done to Latin Catholicism will have the same effect worldwide as it did in Latin America: those outside will welcome the "conversion" of the Church to worldliness; the lukewarm will be affirmed in it and will fully abandon the faith; the pious will bravely linger on, but whose spinelessness will not inspire the next generation; the devout will jump ship to Protestant sects.

Quote from: Lk 18:8
When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?

On the bright side, either the dogma of papal infallibility will be revised, i.e. developed, to state that the Holy Spirit protects the Church from papal heresies or Catholics will realize that the Orthodox have been right about the papacy all along.

Hopefully you are correct; if the RCC abandons papal infallibility that would be a breakthrough.

By the way, I wish we had a Maronite Orthodox Church as part of the OO or EO communion, for Maronites who hold your views and/or are liturgically traditional.  The Maronite tradition has become different in several respects from Syriac Orthodoxy, and I think it would be a mistake to just evangelize Maronites directly into the Syriac church.  Our liturgies are similiar, but differ in some key respects; your style of worship is less ornate and features some remnant Latinizations, but also a very interesting musical tradition which is in danger of disappearing due to the proliferation of Praise and Worship bands in Maronite parishes. 

I wish our Syriac Orthodox Church could set up a Maronite Rite Vicarate.  That would also constitute potentially some nice healing from the schism that separated our two communities in the first millenium.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2017, 07:33:06 PM »
By the way, I wish we had a Maronite Orthodox Church as part of the OO or EO communion, for Maronites who hold your views and/or are liturgically traditional.  The Maronite tradition has become different in several respects from Syriac Orthodoxy, and I think it would be a mistake to just evangelize Maronites directly into the Syriac church.  Our liturgies are similiar, but differ in some key respects; your style of worship is less ornate and features some remnant Latinizations, but also a very interesting musical tradition which is in danger of disappearing due to the proliferation of Praise and Worship bands in Maronite parishes. 
The Maronite Church has suffered terribly under Rome since their encounter during the Crusades, more so than the uniate Eastern Catholic Churches.  Yet, much of the Maronite clergy from its original territory continues to be supportive of watering down its Western Syriac traditions in favor of Latin ones.  In my anecdotal experience, foregin born, especially convert, clergy are the remaining supporters of recovering the Antiochian roots.  I'm afraid that, should the current trends continue, the Maronite Divine Liturgy will be nearly indistinguishable from the Novus Ordo Roman Liturgy in a couples of generations.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 07:33:49 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2017, 07:49:17 PM »
By the way, I wish we had a Maronite Orthodox Church as part of the OO or EO communion, for Maronites who hold your views and/or are liturgically traditional.  The Maronite tradition has become different in several respects from Syriac Orthodoxy, and I think it would be a mistake to just evangelize Maronites directly into the Syriac church.  Our liturgies are similiar, but differ in some key respects; your style of worship is less ornate and features some remnant Latinizations, but also a very interesting musical tradition which is in danger of disappearing due to the proliferation of Praise and Worship bands in Maronite parishes. 
The Maronite Church has suffered terribly under Rome since their encounter during the Crusades, more so than the uniate Eastern Catholic Churches.  Yet, much of the Maronite clergy from its original territory continues to be supportive of watering down its Western Syriac traditions in favor of Latin ones.  In my anecdotal experience, foregin born, especially convert, clergy are the remaining supporters of recovering the Antiochian roots.  I'm afraid that, should the current trends continue, the Maronite Divine Liturgy will be nearly indistinguishable from the Novus Ordo Roman Liturgy in a couples of generations.

So here is a question, and forgive me for daring to ask it, but would you, as a Maronite, feel comfortable joining the Syriac Orthodox Church or another Orthodox Church, such as Antioch, and do you think enough other Maronites might come over so as to make a legitimate request for a Maronite Rite vicarate?

The Antiochian Orthodox church might be a good fit, because they have a Western Rite Vicarate which is the largest in Orthodoxy and seem comfortable with multiple rites (Ive also heard a rumor that the Antiochian church has a priest trying to revive the Syriac language or possibly the disused Syriac liturgical rite as it existed in that church prior to the 13th century).  You would also sidestep problems with people being uncomfortable with our Theopaschite Clause and remain "Chalcedonian," avoid any possible "bad blood" about the ancient schism, and the Antiochian church is effectively based in Lebanon, like the Maronite church (nominally, it is based in Antakya, and I believe the Patriarchal Cathedral and the official headquarters are in Damascus, but unlike our church, there is a much larger Antiochian community in Lebanon, and the church administration has effectively resided there since at least the start of the horrible civil war).
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2017, 08:24:40 PM »
So here is a question, and forgive me for daring to ask it, but would you, as a Maronite, feel comfortable joining the Syriac Orthodox Church or another Orthodox Church, such as Antioch, and do you think enough other Maronites might come over so as to make a legitimate request for a Maronite Rite vicarate?
Of course, the traditions of the Syriac Fathers, especially those out of the school of Edessa, the liturgy of St. James and hymnary are dear to most Maronites, even if unconsciously.  In this sense, the Syriac Orthodox Church would be more familiar, except for their not being Chalcedonian, a historically important point to the Maronite Church, since she suffered martyrdom defending this council.  However, the Christian peoples in the Levant are used to partaking of each other's altar when they are being slaughtered day in, day out. 

All in all, there may still be hope that, being a patriarchal Church, the Maronite hierarchy could assert our traditions more strongly.  Of course, not before the terrible strifes in the Levant finally come to an end.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 08:25:11 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline jobin219

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2017, 05:23:39 AM »
So here is a question, and forgive me for daring to ask it, but would you, as a Maronite, feel comfortable joining the Syriac Orthodox Church or another Orthodox Church, such as Antioch, and do you think enough other Maronites might come over so as to make a legitimate request for a Maronite Rite vicarate?
Of course, the traditions of the Syriac Fathers, especially those out of the school of Edessa, the liturgy of St. James and hymnary are dear to most Maronites, even if unconsciously.  In this sense, the Syriac Orthodox Church would be more familiar, except for their not being Chalcedonian, a historically important point to the Maronite Church, since she suffered martyrdom defending this council.  However, the Christian peoples in the Levant are used to partaking of each other's altar when they are being slaughtered day in, day out. 

All in all, there may still be hope that, being a patriarchal Church, the Maronite hierarchy could assert our traditions more strongly.  Of course, not before the terrible strifes in the Levant finally come to an end.

Do you mind elaborating on this?
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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2017, 08:21:39 AM »
I wish our Syriac Orthodox Church could set up a Maronite Rite Vicarate.  That would also constitute potentially some nice healing from the schism that separated our two communities in the first millenium.

It would provoke the accusations of proselytsm. Only if there were some Maronites that would like to join Antiochian Orthodoxy (Syriac or Greek one), such vicarate would have a good basis. And then, amybe, some parishes would join.
But, as for now, it seems that Maronites are more connected to some Latin traditions and saints than to Eastern ones. But, there are some people like Sharbel, that may be aware of loosing their own tradition.
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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2017, 09:00:08 AM »
By the way, I wish we had a Maronite Orthodox Church as part of the OO or EO communion, for Maronites who hold your views and/or are liturgically traditional.  The Maronite tradition has become different in several respects from Syriac Orthodoxy, and I think it would be a mistake to just evangelize Maronites directly into the Syriac church.  Our liturgies are similiar, but differ in some key respects; your style of worship is less ornate and features some remnant Latinizations, but also a very interesting musical tradition which is in danger of disappearing due to the proliferation of Praise and Worship bands in Maronite parishes. 
The Maronite Church has suffered terribly under Rome since their encounter during the Crusades, more so than the uniate Eastern Catholic Churches.  Yet, much of the Maronite clergy from its original territory continues to be supportive of watering down its Western Syriac traditions in favor of Latin ones.  In my anecdotal experience, foregin born, especially convert, clergy are the remaining supporters of recovering the Antiochian roots.  I'm afraid that, should the current trends continue, the Maronite Divine Liturgy will be nearly indistinguishable from the Novus Ordo Roman Liturgy in a couples of generations.

I notice here in Brazil that despite of ~80% of syrian/lebanese immigrants being maronite, there are more antiochian orthodox parishes than maronite ones, the maronites were almost completely absorbed by latin tradition, and few parishes still have the maronite rite.

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2017, 09:18:56 AM »
I'm torn. As an Orthodox inquirer, I should appreciate him for single-handedly discrediting Papal infallibility (I should note however that he isn't the reason I abandoned Roman Catholicism). As a "traditionalist", I don't like his modernist Jesuitry and his distaste for the traditional Liturgy and aesthetics.
How could he discredit papal infallibility when (1) he has not denied it and (2) he has not declared any doctrine ex cathedral?
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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2017, 09:24:23 AM »
By the way, I wish we had a Maronite Orthodox Church as part of the OO or EO communion, for Maronites who hold your views and/or are liturgically traditional.  The Maronite tradition has become different in several respects from Syriac Orthodoxy, and I think it would be a mistake to just evangelize Maronites directly into the Syriac church.  Our liturgies are similiar, but differ in some key respects; your style of worship is less ornate and features some remnant Latinizations, but also a very interesting musical tradition which is in danger of disappearing due to the proliferation of Praise and Worship bands in Maronite parishes. 
The Maronite Church has suffered terribly under Rome since their encounter during the Crusades, more so than the uniate Eastern Catholic Churches.  Yet, much of the Maronite clergy from its original territory continues to be supportive of watering down its Western Syriac traditions in favor of Latin ones.  In my anecdotal experience, foregin born, especially convert, clergy are the remaining supporters of recovering the Antiochian roots.  I'm afraid that, should the current trends continue, the Maronite Divine Liturgy will be nearly indistinguishable from the Novus Ordo Roman Liturgy in a couples of generations.

I notice here in Brazil that despite of ~80% of syrian/lebanese immigrants being maronite, there are more antiochian orthodox parishes than maronite ones, the maronites were almost completely absorbed by latin tradition, and few parishes still have the maronite rite.

Oh, that's interesting. And are there RC parishes that used to be Maronite ones? Do some parishes claim that they are of Maronite descent? And what about Melkites?
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2017, 09:26:00 AM »
Concerning Pope Francis, I find him too close of Liberation Theology and catholic south-american leftism.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2017, 09:33:00 AM »
How could he discredit papal infallibility when (1) he has not denied it and (2) he has not declared any doctrine ex cathedral (sic)?
Pope Francis has effectively, through words and actions, contradicted his predecessors, thereby failing the papal office, i.e., de facto denying the dogma of papal infallibility.


Point in question, his letters to bishops and bishop conferences affirming their actions and interpretation of his ambiguous words to mean the opposite of what St. JPII stated in Familiaris Consortio.  Truly, neither pope made statements ex catedra, but the former affirmed Catholic tradition stated by Catholic Ecumenical Councils and the latter contradicted them. 


Unless one wants to parse words with the most legalistic bent, it's undeniable that the spirit of the dogma, the backbone of Roman Catholicism, was broken by Pope Francis.
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2017, 09:34:38 AM »
Quote
Oh, that's interesting. And are there RC parishes that used to be Maronite ones? Do some parishes claim that they are of Maronite descent? And what about Melkites?

I don't have info about RC parishes of maronite rite that switched to latin rite, I think that never happened, as far as I know, arab immigrants (they came between the end of XIX and begining of the XX century) in Brazil, at least the maronite ones, they spreaded across the country and they integrated too much with the brazilian sorroundings, specially the maronites that never had the religious barrier with Roman Catholics, the orthodox in the other hand as far as I know, due to the religious barrier, ended up preserving their religious background. In São Paulo for instance, there is a large antiochian orthodox cathedral and 3 other antiochian parishes, but there are only 2 maronite rite parishes in the whole city and vicinity. The melkites are quite small, I know about one melkite parish in São Paulo, I'm not sure of how many exists in Brazil.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 09:35:00 AM by juliogb »

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2017, 09:44:49 AM »
I notice here in Brazil that despite of ~80% of syrian/lebanese immigrants being maronite, there are more antiochian orthodox parishes than maronite ones, the maronites were almost completely absorbed by latin tradition, and few parishes still have the maronite rite.
That's interesting.  Indeed, the Maronite eparchy of Brazil is perhaps the largest one in the Maronite Church, yet how is it possible that there are more Maronite churches in the US than in Brazil?  The reason is that, when found in a majorly Latin Catholic population, Maronites prefer to abandon their Church for the mainstream one. 


Methinks that it's the fruit of the same spirit that has led Maronites to more than putting up with their traditions being suppressed for Latin ones, but, by commission or omission, to support it.  During the crusades in a vain hope for protection from the Saracens; during the Ottoman occupation in a vain hope that France would protect them from genocide; during the civil war in a vain hope that America would help their side. 


Nevertheless, all vain hopes which never materialized, either because the Latin Church considers itself to be THE Church and all others as mere concessions to custom or because the West couldn't care less about how non blonde people suffer.  Yet, to this day, Maronites still strive to water down their heritage to assimilate themselves to the surrounding culture, be it in celebrating the Divine Liturgy facing the people, be it in failing to follow its feasts and fasts.  It is a lack of self worth that's endemic in third world cultures, be it Lebanon or Brazil, that spells the downfall of the same cultures.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2017, 09:50:37 AM »
Do you mind elaborating on this?
See "The 350 Maronite Martyrs" in https://is.gd/PLkoIO.  Their feast is celebrated with great emphasis on July 31 by the Maronite Church.
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2017, 09:51:00 AM »
Quote
That's interesting.  Indeed, the Maronite eparchy of Brazil is perhaps the largest one in the Maronite Church, yet how is it possible that there are more Maronite churches in the US than in Brazil?  The reason is that, when found in a majorly Latin Catholic population, Maronites prefer to abandon their Church for the mainstream one. 

Yeah, maronites in the US were sorrounded by protestants of diferent denominations, so they choose to maintain the traditions of their church, in Brazil, they were sorrounded by roman catholics, and spread too much across the country to form closed communities like the koreans or the russians did.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 09:51:26 AM by juliogb »

Offline juliogb

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2017, 09:55:27 AM »


That's the interior of Our Lady of Lebanon parish in São Paulo.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2017, 09:56:01 AM »
Quote
Oh, that's interesting. And are there RC parishes that used to be Maronite ones? Do some parishes claim that they are of Maronite descent? And what about Melkites?

I don't have info about RC parishes of maronite rite that switched to latin rite, I think that never happened...
I agree that it's highly unlikely.  What usually happens is that Maronites, while remaining canonically in the Maronite jurisdiction, become de facto Latin Catholics, never haunting a Maronite parish again.  In Mexico, in particular, this is even more the case, as the persecution of Christians in the country was ferocious towards Maronites, which cowered them to assimilate themselves as Latin Catholics, who couldn't accept any other particular Church whose head was not the Pope of Rome.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2017, 09:56:55 AM »
So here is a question, and forgive me for daring to ask it, but would you, as a Maronite, feel comfortable joining the Syriac Orthodox Church or another Orthodox Church, such as Antioch, and do you think enough other Maronites might come over so as to make a legitimate request for a Maronite Rite vicarate?

I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2017, 09:58:00 AM »


That's the interior of Our Lady of Lebanon parish in São Paulo.
While I'm sure that many Maronites can resonate emotionally to its imagery, it's barely an eastern church in the Maronite tradition, especially for a cathedral.
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2017, 10:10:55 AM »
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While I'm sure that many Maronites can resonate emotionally to its imagery, it's barely an eastern church in the Maronite tradition, especially for a cathedral.

The melkite parish is way more eastern than the maronite one.


Offline Sharbel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2017, 10:13:01 AM »
On the bright side, either the dogma of papal infallibility will be revised, i.e. developed, to state that the Holy Spirit protects the Church from papal heresies or Catholics will realize that the Orthodox have been right about the papacy all along.
Dream on.
Or rather, pray on!
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Offline William T

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2017, 10:26:31 AM »
In my area in America (Great Lakes) we have  a decent amount of Maronite Churches that look like similar to the Antiochian ones.  Though, it's been over a decade since I've been in one, and I've probably only stepped foot in a Maronite Church less than 7 times in my life, so maybe things have changed.

PS: My family from Damascus just visited some famous shrine, Church, or monastery in Beirut just a day or two ago of St. Sharbel.  From what I could make of the one photo I saw of a building, it looked like a standard Catholic structure.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 10:27:34 AM by William T »

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2017, 10:36:53 AM »
In other words, we don't want to cheat when it comes to ecumenical reunion; we need an honest deal, and Pope Francis might either be guillable or else promise that which his church would refuse to deliver on.
Pope Francis seems to have been formed philosophically as a modernist, displaying an all too obvious dialectical approach to doctrine and policies.


In short, dialectics proposes that truth is achieved by the synthesis of a thesis and its antithesis, an affirmation and its negation.  Both coexist in conflict with each other, which must be resolved by their synthesis.  If this sounds a bit of Alchemy, it's because Hegel was highly influenced by it through Eckhart (v. https://is.gd/wpXzmW). 


In practice, theologians adept at dialectics, which was fully embraced in Jesuit formation, since it reflects their historic mode of action, confront the perennial revealed truths of the Faith with modern challenges, as thesis and antithesis, fully knowing that the resulting synthesis is a compromise of Revelation, which is easy to justify by Western Catholics of the Scholastic tradition as development of doctrine.  This is exactly what I believe is how Pope Francis acts.


For example, on one hand, he suppressed the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate, who only used the Vetus Ordo liturgy; on the other hand, he made generous gestures to the SSPX.  Without meaning disrespect, this may be a Jesuitical way of acting.  I'm afraid the Pope Francis would act in the same generous way towards Oriental Orthodox Churches, but what then afterwards or after his reign?  While the Maronite Church was recognized in the 13th century after centuries in remission, mere 3 centuries later it was forced to forego its vernacular, ancient liturgy for the foreign Tridentine liturgy in Latin!
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Offline AlioshaKaramazov

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2017, 10:37:21 AM »

(1) he has not denied it

Yet.


 (2) he has not declared any doctrine ex cathedral?

Ex cathedra is just a meme. I was a Papal minimalist before, and the amount of mental gymnastics needed to hold that position was really exhausting.


Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2017, 10:51:22 AM »
Quote
While I'm sure that many Maronites can resonate emotionally to its imagery, it's barely an eastern church in the Maronite tradition, especially for a cathedral.

The melkite parish is way more eastern than the maronite one.

If you judge it solely on the imagery, yes. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2017, 11:15:27 AM »
Well, now, that's the first time I've heard Hegel accused of alchemy.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2017, 12:36:54 PM »
What are some of your thoughts on the current Pope? Just curious.  :)
Two things just off the top.

He's headed for "Formal correction" concerning Amoris Laetitia.

He could quite possibly usher in the greatest schism since 1054.

He also could cause the greatest exodous from the RCC since Martin Luther.(which is odd, him being a pope)

Ok three things.

I'm sure this is  all joyous news to you easterners.
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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2017, 12:37:43 PM »
What are some of your thoughts on the current Pope? Just curious.  :)
Two things just off the top.

He's headed for "Formal correction" concerning Amoris Laetitia.

He could quite possibly usher in the greatest schism since 1054.

He also could cause the greatest exodous from the RCC since Martin Luther.(which is odd, him being a pope)

Ok three things.

I'm sure this is  all joyous news to you easterners.

None of this is at all likely.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2017, 12:46:32 PM »
He's headed for "Formal correction" concerning Amoris Laetitia.

If they had the guts, they would've done it by now.  They'll wait for death. 

Quote
He could quite possibly usher in the greatest schism since 1054.

Schisms happen because people care.  I doubt enough RCs care. 

Quote
He also could cause the greatest exodous from the RCC since Martin Luther.(which is odd, him being a pope)

See above.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).