Author Topic: Thoughts on Pope Francis?  (Read 3717 times)

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Offline Jackson02

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Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« on: May 27, 2017, 10:59:30 AM »
What are some of your thoughts on the current Pope? Just curious.  :)
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Offline youssef

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2017, 11:36:11 AM »
You should ask Pope Tawadros. :D

Offline coptic orthodox boy

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2017, 12:09:49 PM »
Not a big fan (albeit his namesake was my patron when I was Catholic).

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2017, 12:33:03 PM »
Having been raised in the Roman Church, and the Aglican Church, I was fonder by far of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2017, 02:39:21 PM »
Negatives: he is vague with media in order to appear politically correct; he's not Orthodox
Positives: he has increased awareness for more social services and seems to have a genuine kindness, humility, and simplicity of heart
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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2017, 03:10:10 PM »
My favorite Roman Pope so far...

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2017, 03:19:22 PM »
The Mrs. wishes he could live with the Trads rather than knock them.

Offline AlioshaKaramazov

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2017, 03:32:15 PM »
I'm torn. As an Orthodox inquirer, I should appreciate him for single-handedly discrediting Papal infallibility (I should note however that he isn't the reason I abandoned Roman Catholicism). As a "traditionalist", I don't like his modernist Jesuitry and his distaste for the traditional Liturgy and aesthetics.

Offline christiane777

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2017, 03:36:27 PM »
What are some of your thoughts on the current Pope? Just curious.  :)

Much more popular with non-Catholics than Catholics - at least than with more traditional 'orthodox' Catholics.  Not a bad man, not a great man.   Personally I am kind of indifferent to him; I think as Pope he has been quite divisive, polemic.  He can come off as quite abrasive. He tends the sheep that agree with his views, his politics.  That is about it.  I don't think he is what the RCC needs right now, though it is probably what it deserves.  Liberal Protestants and many Orthodox seem to see much to like in him for a variety of reasons, but I don't see that in many Catholics.  I was much more inspired by Saint John Paul II and Pope Benedict.  More empathy.  Pope Francis has kind of an unfortunate way of just leaving me flat, tired, discontent, even a little sad.  Mainly because he is so emboldening to the worst of the worst in terms of 'bringing Catholicism into the modern world.'  Throwing off those 'doctrine' shackles.  Riding a bicycle without brakes.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 03:49:42 PM by christiane777 »
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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2017, 03:42:51 PM »
What are some of your thoughts on the current Pope? Just curious.  :)

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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2017, 04:16:10 PM »
Continuing the slow work of turning the RCC into a bigger Anglican Communion. So, it depends on whether that's good or not.
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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2017, 05:40:57 PM »
It doesn't really matter. I am positive, it doesn't matter at all.  8)
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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2017, 09:31:30 AM »
The American right-wing hates him and calls him a socalist so he must be good. 8)

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2017, 09:46:08 AM »
It would be helpful if non-OO members might indicate their status; the OP seems to be asking those of us who follow the miaphysite faith of St. Cyril of our views of him.

In my opinion, he is a dangerous crypto-Nestorian modernist whose neo-Peronist political views are intolerable, who has been absolutely brutal in his treatment of traditionalist Catholics.  That said, his modernism is such that if the OO communion desires to reconcile with the RCC on our preferred terms, we might have a fair shot under him; I have a feeling he might willingly concede various disputed points to us, including full recognition of our autocephaly, our bishops having veto powers over Roman internal affairs, and Pope Leo I being in error, purely for the sake of unity, particularly if he thought he could not do a deal with the Eastern Orthodox.  He might agree to all of this just to spite the traditionalists in his own communion.  It would probably be a bit rapacious and expolitative for us to avail ourselves of the vast concessions I expect we could extract from him, to the extent that it would cause a schism in the RCC and cause many of them to hate us, so, perhaps its better to wait for the next guy, and work towards reunion with a Pope who actually has some solid conviction when it comes to matters of doctrine, as opposed to a mere politician like Pope Francis. 

In other words, we don't want to cheat when it comes to ecumenical reunion; we need an honest deal, and Pope Francis might either be guillable or else promise that which his church would refuse to deliver on.

What alarms me is how close our Pope Tawadros II came to endorsing the anti-Nicene proposal of Pope Francis regarding the dating of Pascha, which would have ripped the OO church apart.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2017, 06:13:06 PM »
Pope Francis is the typical Latin American bishop of his generation, who, under his watch, presided over the decimation of the Catholic faith in the continent, in some cases down to a minority from almost absolute majority (e.g., Guatemala and Honduras).  The pope, like his Latin brethren bishops, get very positive feedback from the secular media when they bash faithful Catholics and water down Church doctrine, so they vainly act accordingly, doing anything to please the cameras and the glitterati. They bash the faithful by criticizing their piety and devotions, especially popular ones, while proclaiming to be bishops of the people.  They water down doctrine by relying heavily on Hegelian dialectics and thus embracing relativism, flirting with heresy.

Pope Francis, in particular, is, as it couldn't be otherwise, Jesuitical in his actions, which some might call utilitarian, but others call dishonest.  The damage that he's done to Latin Catholicism will have the same effect worldwide as it did in Latin America: those outside will welcome the "conversion" of the Church to worldliness; the lukewarm will be affirmed in it and will fully abandon the faith; the pious will bravely linger on, but whose spinelessness will not inspire the next generation; the devout will jump ship to Protestant sects.

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When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?

On the bright side, either the dogma of papal infallibility will be revised, i.e. developed, to state that the Holy Spirit protects the Church from papal heresies or Catholics will realize that the Orthodox have been right about the papacy all along.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 06:23:14 PM by Sharbel »
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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2017, 06:18:03 PM »
On the bright side, either the dogma of papal infallibility will be revised, i.e. developed, to state that the Holy Spirit protects the Church from papal heresies or Catholics will realize that the Orthodox have been right about the papacy all along.

Dream on.
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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2017, 07:13:20 PM »
Pope Francis is the typical Latin American bishop of his generation, who, under his watch, presided over the decimation of the Catholic faith in the continent, in some cases down to a minority from almost absolute majority (e.g., Guatemala and Honduras).  The pope, like his Latin brethren bishops, get very positive feedback from the secular media when they bash faithful Catholics and water down Church doctrine, so they vainly act accordingly, doing anything to please the cameras and the glitterati. They bash the faithful by criticizing their piety and devotions, especially popular ones, while proclaiming to be bishops of the people.  They water down doctrine by relying heavily on Hegelian dialectics and thus embracing relativism, flirting with heresy.

Pope Francis, in particular, is, as it couldn't be otherwise, Jesuitical in his actions, which some might call utilitarian, but others call dishonest.  The damage that he's done to Latin Catholicism will have the same effect worldwide as it did in Latin America: those outside will welcome the "conversion" of the Church to worldliness; the lukewarm will be affirmed in it and will fully abandon the faith; the pious will bravely linger on, but whose spinelessness will not inspire the next generation; the devout will jump ship to Protestant sects.

Quote from: Lk 18:8
When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?

On the bright side, either the dogma of papal infallibility will be revised, i.e. developed, to state that the Holy Spirit protects the Church from papal heresies or Catholics will realize that the Orthodox have been right about the papacy all along.

Hopefully you are correct; if the RCC abandons papal infallibility that would be a breakthrough.

By the way, I wish we had a Maronite Orthodox Church as part of the OO or EO communion, for Maronites who hold your views and/or are liturgically traditional.  The Maronite tradition has become different in several respects from Syriac Orthodoxy, and I think it would be a mistake to just evangelize Maronites directly into the Syriac church.  Our liturgies are similiar, but differ in some key respects; your style of worship is less ornate and features some remnant Latinizations, but also a very interesting musical tradition which is in danger of disappearing due to the proliferation of Praise and Worship bands in Maronite parishes. 

I wish our Syriac Orthodox Church could set up a Maronite Rite Vicarate.  That would also constitute potentially some nice healing from the schism that separated our two communities in the first millenium.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2017, 07:33:06 PM »
By the way, I wish we had a Maronite Orthodox Church as part of the OO or EO communion, for Maronites who hold your views and/or are liturgically traditional.  The Maronite tradition has become different in several respects from Syriac Orthodoxy, and I think it would be a mistake to just evangelize Maronites directly into the Syriac church.  Our liturgies are similiar, but differ in some key respects; your style of worship is less ornate and features some remnant Latinizations, but also a very interesting musical tradition which is in danger of disappearing due to the proliferation of Praise and Worship bands in Maronite parishes. 
The Maronite Church has suffered terribly under Rome since their encounter during the Crusades, more so than the uniate Eastern Catholic Churches.  Yet, much of the Maronite clergy from its original territory continues to be supportive of watering down its Western Syriac traditions in favor of Latin ones.  In my anecdotal experience, foregin born, especially convert, clergy are the remaining supporters of recovering the Antiochian roots.  I'm afraid that, should the current trends continue, the Maronite Divine Liturgy will be nearly indistinguishable from the Novus Ordo Roman Liturgy in a couples of generations.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 07:33:49 PM by Sharbel »
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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2017, 07:49:17 PM »
By the way, I wish we had a Maronite Orthodox Church as part of the OO or EO communion, for Maronites who hold your views and/or are liturgically traditional.  The Maronite tradition has become different in several respects from Syriac Orthodoxy, and I think it would be a mistake to just evangelize Maronites directly into the Syriac church.  Our liturgies are similiar, but differ in some key respects; your style of worship is less ornate and features some remnant Latinizations, but also a very interesting musical tradition which is in danger of disappearing due to the proliferation of Praise and Worship bands in Maronite parishes. 
The Maronite Church has suffered terribly under Rome since their encounter during the Crusades, more so than the uniate Eastern Catholic Churches.  Yet, much of the Maronite clergy from its original territory continues to be supportive of watering down its Western Syriac traditions in favor of Latin ones.  In my anecdotal experience, foregin born, especially convert, clergy are the remaining supporters of recovering the Antiochian roots.  I'm afraid that, should the current trends continue, the Maronite Divine Liturgy will be nearly indistinguishable from the Novus Ordo Roman Liturgy in a couples of generations.

So here is a question, and forgive me for daring to ask it, but would you, as a Maronite, feel comfortable joining the Syriac Orthodox Church or another Orthodox Church, such as Antioch, and do you think enough other Maronites might come over so as to make a legitimate request for a Maronite Rite vicarate?

The Antiochian Orthodox church might be a good fit, because they have a Western Rite Vicarate which is the largest in Orthodoxy and seem comfortable with multiple rites (Ive also heard a rumor that the Antiochian church has a priest trying to revive the Syriac language or possibly the disused Syriac liturgical rite as it existed in that church prior to the 13th century).  You would also sidestep problems with people being uncomfortable with our Theopaschite Clause and remain "Chalcedonian," avoid any possible "bad blood" about the ancient schism, and the Antiochian church is effectively based in Lebanon, like the Maronite church (nominally, it is based in Antakya, and I believe the Patriarchal Cathedral and the official headquarters are in Damascus, but unlike our church, there is a much larger Antiochian community in Lebanon, and the church administration has effectively resided there since at least the start of the horrible civil war).
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2017, 08:24:40 PM »
So here is a question, and forgive me for daring to ask it, but would you, as a Maronite, feel comfortable joining the Syriac Orthodox Church or another Orthodox Church, such as Antioch, and do you think enough other Maronites might come over so as to make a legitimate request for a Maronite Rite vicarate?
Of course, the traditions of the Syriac Fathers, especially those out of the school of Edessa, the liturgy of St. James and hymnary are dear to most Maronites, even if unconsciously.  In this sense, the Syriac Orthodox Church would be more familiar, except for their not being Chalcedonian, a historically important point to the Maronite Church, since she suffered martyrdom defending this council.  However, the Christian peoples in the Levant are used to partaking of each other's altar when they are being slaughtered day in, day out. 

All in all, there may still be hope that, being a patriarchal Church, the Maronite hierarchy could assert our traditions more strongly.  Of course, not before the terrible strifes in the Levant finally come to an end.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 08:25:11 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline jobin219

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2017, 05:23:39 AM »
So here is a question, and forgive me for daring to ask it, but would you, as a Maronite, feel comfortable joining the Syriac Orthodox Church or another Orthodox Church, such as Antioch, and do you think enough other Maronites might come over so as to make a legitimate request for a Maronite Rite vicarate?
Of course, the traditions of the Syriac Fathers, especially those out of the school of Edessa, the liturgy of St. James and hymnary are dear to most Maronites, even if unconsciously.  In this sense, the Syriac Orthodox Church would be more familiar, except for their not being Chalcedonian, a historically important point to the Maronite Church, since she suffered martyrdom defending this council.  However, the Christian peoples in the Levant are used to partaking of each other's altar when they are being slaughtered day in, day out. 

All in all, there may still be hope that, being a patriarchal Church, the Maronite hierarchy could assert our traditions more strongly.  Of course, not before the terrible strifes in the Levant finally come to an end.

Do you mind elaborating on this?
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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2017, 08:21:39 AM »
I wish our Syriac Orthodox Church could set up a Maronite Rite Vicarate.  That would also constitute potentially some nice healing from the schism that separated our two communities in the first millenium.

It would provoke the accusations of proselytsm. Only if there were some Maronites that would like to join Antiochian Orthodoxy (Syriac or Greek one), such vicarate would have a good basis. And then, amybe, some parishes would join.
But, as for now, it seems that Maronites are more connected to some Latin traditions and saints than to Eastern ones. But, there are some people like Sharbel, that may be aware of loosing their own tradition.
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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2017, 09:00:08 AM »
By the way, I wish we had a Maronite Orthodox Church as part of the OO or EO communion, for Maronites who hold your views and/or are liturgically traditional.  The Maronite tradition has become different in several respects from Syriac Orthodoxy, and I think it would be a mistake to just evangelize Maronites directly into the Syriac church.  Our liturgies are similiar, but differ in some key respects; your style of worship is less ornate and features some remnant Latinizations, but also a very interesting musical tradition which is in danger of disappearing due to the proliferation of Praise and Worship bands in Maronite parishes. 
The Maronite Church has suffered terribly under Rome since their encounter during the Crusades, more so than the uniate Eastern Catholic Churches.  Yet, much of the Maronite clergy from its original territory continues to be supportive of watering down its Western Syriac traditions in favor of Latin ones.  In my anecdotal experience, foregin born, especially convert, clergy are the remaining supporters of recovering the Antiochian roots.  I'm afraid that, should the current trends continue, the Maronite Divine Liturgy will be nearly indistinguishable from the Novus Ordo Roman Liturgy in a couples of generations.

I notice here in Brazil that despite of ~80% of syrian/lebanese immigrants being maronite, there are more antiochian orthodox parishes than maronite ones, the maronites were almost completely absorbed by latin tradition, and few parishes still have the maronite rite.

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2017, 09:18:56 AM »
I'm torn. As an Orthodox inquirer, I should appreciate him for single-handedly discrediting Papal infallibility (I should note however that he isn't the reason I abandoned Roman Catholicism). As a "traditionalist", I don't like his modernist Jesuitry and his distaste for the traditional Liturgy and aesthetics.
How could he discredit papal infallibility when (1) he has not denied it and (2) he has not declared any doctrine ex cathedral?
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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2017, 09:24:23 AM »
By the way, I wish we had a Maronite Orthodox Church as part of the OO or EO communion, for Maronites who hold your views and/or are liturgically traditional.  The Maronite tradition has become different in several respects from Syriac Orthodoxy, and I think it would be a mistake to just evangelize Maronites directly into the Syriac church.  Our liturgies are similiar, but differ in some key respects; your style of worship is less ornate and features some remnant Latinizations, but also a very interesting musical tradition which is in danger of disappearing due to the proliferation of Praise and Worship bands in Maronite parishes. 
The Maronite Church has suffered terribly under Rome since their encounter during the Crusades, more so than the uniate Eastern Catholic Churches.  Yet, much of the Maronite clergy from its original territory continues to be supportive of watering down its Western Syriac traditions in favor of Latin ones.  In my anecdotal experience, foregin born, especially convert, clergy are the remaining supporters of recovering the Antiochian roots.  I'm afraid that, should the current trends continue, the Maronite Divine Liturgy will be nearly indistinguishable from the Novus Ordo Roman Liturgy in a couples of generations.

I notice here in Brazil that despite of ~80% of syrian/lebanese immigrants being maronite, there are more antiochian orthodox parishes than maronite ones, the maronites were almost completely absorbed by latin tradition, and few parishes still have the maronite rite.

Oh, that's interesting. And are there RC parishes that used to be Maronite ones? Do some parishes claim that they are of Maronite descent? And what about Melkites?
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2017, 09:26:00 AM »
Concerning Pope Francis, I find him too close of Liberation Theology and catholic south-american leftism.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2017, 09:33:00 AM »
How could he discredit papal infallibility when (1) he has not denied it and (2) he has not declared any doctrine ex cathedral (sic)?
Pope Francis has effectively, through words and actions, contradicted his predecessors, thereby failing the papal office, i.e., de facto denying the dogma of papal infallibility.


Point in question, his letters to bishops and bishop conferences affirming their actions and interpretation of his ambiguous words to mean the opposite of what St. JPII stated in Familiaris Consortio.  Truly, neither pope made statements ex catedra, but the former affirmed Catholic tradition stated by Catholic Ecumenical Councils and the latter contradicted them. 


Unless one wants to parse words with the most legalistic bent, it's undeniable that the spirit of the dogma, the backbone of Roman Catholicism, was broken by Pope Francis.
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2017, 09:34:38 AM »
Quote
Oh, that's interesting. And are there RC parishes that used to be Maronite ones? Do some parishes claim that they are of Maronite descent? And what about Melkites?

I don't have info about RC parishes of maronite rite that switched to latin rite, I think that never happened, as far as I know, arab immigrants (they came between the end of XIX and begining of the XX century) in Brazil, at least the maronite ones, they spreaded across the country and they integrated too much with the brazilian sorroundings, specially the maronites that never had the religious barrier with Roman Catholics, the orthodox in the other hand as far as I know, due to the religious barrier, ended up preserving their religious background. In São Paulo for instance, there is a large antiochian orthodox cathedral and 3 other antiochian parishes, but there are only 2 maronite rite parishes in the whole city and vicinity. The melkites are quite small, I know about one melkite parish in São Paulo, I'm not sure of how many exists in Brazil.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 09:35:00 AM by juliogb »

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2017, 09:44:49 AM »
I notice here in Brazil that despite of ~80% of syrian/lebanese immigrants being maronite, there are more antiochian orthodox parishes than maronite ones, the maronites were almost completely absorbed by latin tradition, and few parishes still have the maronite rite.
That's interesting.  Indeed, the Maronite eparchy of Brazil is perhaps the largest one in the Maronite Church, yet how is it possible that there are more Maronite churches in the US than in Brazil?  The reason is that, when found in a majorly Latin Catholic population, Maronites prefer to abandon their Church for the mainstream one. 


Methinks that it's the fruit of the same spirit that has led Maronites to more than putting up with their traditions being suppressed for Latin ones, but, by commission or omission, to support it.  During the crusades in a vain hope for protection from the Saracens; during the Ottoman occupation in a vain hope that France would protect them from genocide; during the civil war in a vain hope that America would help their side. 


Nevertheless, all vain hopes which never materialized, either because the Latin Church considers itself to be THE Church and all others as mere concessions to custom or because the West couldn't care less about how non blonde people suffer.  Yet, to this day, Maronites still strive to water down their heritage to assimilate themselves to the surrounding culture, be it in celebrating the Divine Liturgy facing the people, be it in failing to follow its feasts and fasts.  It is a lack of self worth that's endemic in third world cultures, be it Lebanon or Brazil, that spells the downfall of the same cultures.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2017, 09:50:37 AM »
Do you mind elaborating on this?
See "The 350 Maronite Martyrs" in https://is.gd/PLkoIO.  Their feast is celebrated with great emphasis on July 31 by the Maronite Church.
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2017, 09:51:00 AM »
Quote
That's interesting.  Indeed, the Maronite eparchy of Brazil is perhaps the largest one in the Maronite Church, yet how is it possible that there are more Maronite churches in the US than in Brazil?  The reason is that, when found in a majorly Latin Catholic population, Maronites prefer to abandon their Church for the mainstream one. 

Yeah, maronites in the US were sorrounded by protestants of diferent denominations, so they choose to maintain the traditions of their church, in Brazil, they were sorrounded by roman catholics, and spread too much across the country to form closed communities like the koreans or the russians did.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 09:51:26 AM by juliogb »

Offline juliogb

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2017, 09:55:27 AM »


That's the interior of Our Lady of Lebanon parish in São Paulo.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2017, 09:56:01 AM »
Quote
Oh, that's interesting. And are there RC parishes that used to be Maronite ones? Do some parishes claim that they are of Maronite descent? And what about Melkites?

I don't have info about RC parishes of maronite rite that switched to latin rite, I think that never happened...
I agree that it's highly unlikely.  What usually happens is that Maronites, while remaining canonically in the Maronite jurisdiction, become de facto Latin Catholics, never haunting a Maronite parish again.  In Mexico, in particular, this is even more the case, as the persecution of Christians in the country was ferocious towards Maronites, which cowered them to assimilate themselves as Latin Catholics, who couldn't accept any other particular Church whose head was not the Pope of Rome.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2017, 09:56:55 AM »
So here is a question, and forgive me for daring to ask it, but would you, as a Maronite, feel comfortable joining the Syriac Orthodox Church or another Orthodox Church, such as Antioch, and do you think enough other Maronites might come over so as to make a legitimate request for a Maronite Rite vicarate?

I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2017, 09:58:00 AM »


That's the interior of Our Lady of Lebanon parish in São Paulo.
While I'm sure that many Maronites can resonate emotionally to its imagery, it's barely an eastern church in the Maronite tradition, especially for a cathedral.
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2017, 10:10:55 AM »
Quote
While I'm sure that many Maronites can resonate emotionally to its imagery, it's barely an eastern church in the Maronite tradition, especially for a cathedral.

The melkite parish is way more eastern than the maronite one.


Offline Sharbel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2017, 10:13:01 AM »
On the bright side, either the dogma of papal infallibility will be revised, i.e. developed, to state that the Holy Spirit protects the Church from papal heresies or Catholics will realize that the Orthodox have been right about the papacy all along.
Dream on.
Or rather, pray on!
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Offline William T

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2017, 10:26:31 AM »
In my area in America (Great Lakes) we have  a decent amount of Maronite Churches that look like similar to the Antiochian ones.  Though, it's been over a decade since I've been in one, and I've probably only stepped foot in a Maronite Church less than 7 times in my life, so maybe things have changed.

PS: My family from Damascus just visited some famous shrine, Church, or monastery in Beirut just a day or two ago of St. Sharbel.  From what I could make of the one photo I saw of a building, it looked like a standard Catholic structure.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 10:27:34 AM by William T »
Holy Toledo!

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2017, 10:36:53 AM »
In other words, we don't want to cheat when it comes to ecumenical reunion; we need an honest deal, and Pope Francis might either be guillable or else promise that which his church would refuse to deliver on.
Pope Francis seems to have been formed philosophically as a modernist, displaying an all too obvious dialectical approach to doctrine and policies.


In short, dialectics proposes that truth is achieved by the synthesis of a thesis and its antithesis, an affirmation and its negation.  Both coexist in conflict with each other, which must be resolved by their synthesis.  If this sounds a bit of Alchemy, it's because Hegel was highly influenced by it through Eckhart (v. https://is.gd/wpXzmW). 


In practice, theologians adept at dialectics, which was fully embraced in Jesuit formation, since it reflects their historic mode of action, confront the perennial revealed truths of the Faith with modern challenges, as thesis and antithesis, fully knowing that the resulting synthesis is a compromise of Revelation, which is easy to justify by Western Catholics of the Scholastic tradition as development of doctrine.  This is exactly what I believe is how Pope Francis acts.


For example, on one hand, he suppressed the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate, who only used the Vetus Ordo liturgy; on the other hand, he made generous gestures to the SSPX.  Without meaning disrespect, this may be a Jesuitical way of acting.  I'm afraid the Pope Francis would act in the same generous way towards Oriental Orthodox Churches, but what then afterwards or after his reign?  While the Maronite Church was recognized in the 13th century after centuries in remission, mere 3 centuries later it was forced to forego its vernacular, ancient liturgy for the foreign Tridentine liturgy in Latin!
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Offline AlioshaKaramazov

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2017, 10:37:21 AM »

(1) he has not denied it

Yet.


 (2) he has not declared any doctrine ex cathedral?

Ex cathedra is just a meme. I was a Papal minimalist before, and the amount of mental gymnastics needed to hold that position was really exhausting.


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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2017, 10:51:22 AM »
Quote
While I'm sure that many Maronites can resonate emotionally to its imagery, it's barely an eastern church in the Maronite tradition, especially for a cathedral.

The melkite parish is way more eastern than the maronite one.

If you judge it solely on the imagery, yes. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2017, 11:15:27 AM »
Well, now, that's the first time I've heard Hegel accused of alchemy.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2017, 12:36:54 PM »
What are some of your thoughts on the current Pope? Just curious.  :)
Two things just off the top.

He's headed for "Formal correction" concerning Amoris Laetitia.

He could quite possibly usher in the greatest schism since 1054.

He also could cause the greatest exodous from the RCC since Martin Luther.(which is odd, him being a pope)

Ok three things.

I'm sure this is  all joyous news to you easterners.
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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2017, 12:37:43 PM »
What are some of your thoughts on the current Pope? Just curious.  :)
Two things just off the top.

He's headed for "Formal correction" concerning Amoris Laetitia.

He could quite possibly usher in the greatest schism since 1054.

He also could cause the greatest exodous from the RCC since Martin Luther.(which is odd, him being a pope)

Ok three things.

I'm sure this is  all joyous news to you easterners.

None of this is at all likely.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2017, 12:46:32 PM »
He's headed for "Formal correction" concerning Amoris Laetitia.

If they had the guts, they would've done it by now.  They'll wait for death. 

Quote
He could quite possibly usher in the greatest schism since 1054.

Schisms happen because people care.  I doubt enough RCs care. 

Quote
He also could cause the greatest exodous from the RCC since Martin Luther.(which is odd, him being a pope)

See above.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #45 on: July 04, 2017, 12:49:25 PM »
What are some of your thoughts on the current Pope? Just curious.  :)
Two things just off the top.

He's headed for "Formal correction" concerning Amoris Laetitia.

He could quite possibly usher in the greatest schism since 1054.

He also could cause the greatest exodous from the RCC since Martin Luther.(which is odd, him being a pope)

Ok three things.

I'm sure this is  all joyous news to you easterners.

None of this is at all likely.
Maybe, maybe not.

But this pope is clearly attempting to rock the fundamental foundations/doctrines  of the Latin Church.

If he keeps going, this clearly will not end well either  for him or the Church.



Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #46 on: July 04, 2017, 12:55:49 PM »
Quote
If they had the guts, they would've done it by now.  They'll wait for death. 
You mistake cowardice for patience.

Quote
Schisms happen because people care.  I doubt enough RCs care. 
You underestimate their resolve. But RC's care.

They care just as much for their pope as they do for their Church. This is not easy for anybody.

Quote
See above.
We survived Martin Luther and Henry the VIII and some bad popes as well.

We'll get by this as well.

The gates of hell and all that.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #47 on: July 04, 2017, 01:06:55 PM »
Quote
If they had the guts, they would've done it by now.  They'll wait for death. 
You mistake cowardice for patience.

Then whatever they want to "formally correct" him about can't be as serious as a "formal correction" would warrant. 

Quote
Quote
Schisms happen because people care.  I doubt enough RCs care. 
You underestimate their resolve. But RC's care.

They care just as much for their pope as they do for their Church. This is not easy for anybody.

Perhaps that's the problem. 

Quote
Quote
See above.
We survived Martin Luther and Henry the VIII and some bad popes as well.

We'll get by this as well.

The gates of hell and all that.

Hopefully you'll do more than "get by"...return to Orthodoxy.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #48 on: July 04, 2017, 01:13:53 PM »
What are some of your thoughts on the current Pope? Just curious.  :)
Two things just off the top.

He's headed for "Formal correction" concerning Amoris Laetitia.

He could quite possibly usher in the greatest schism since 1054.

He also could cause the greatest exodous from the RCC since Martin Luther.(which is odd, him being a pope)

Ok three things.

I'm sure this is  all joyous news to you easterners.

None of this is at all likely.
Maybe, maybe not.

But this pope is clearly attempting to rock the fundamental foundations/doctrines  of the Latin Church.

If he keeps going, this clearly will not end well either  for him or the Church.

"Rocking the foundations of the Latin Church" has been the papal job description for centuries.

As for this "liberal pope," his course was set in the Vatican of the '60s. Folks like you lost the battle a long time ago. The only thing ongoing, six decades after, is some sniveling.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #49 on: July 04, 2017, 02:27:38 PM »
Quote
Then whatever they want to "formally correct" him about can't be as serious as a "formal correction" would warrant. 
That is your opinion. Which is not relative in this case.

Quote
Perhaps that's the problem. 
I guess you are apathetic to your "pope" as well.

Why would it be a problem for RC's to care about the fate of the Holy Father? Or possible schism within the Church?

Quote
Hopefully you'll do more than "get by"...return to Orthodoxy.
I agree. But small "o".
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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #50 on: July 04, 2017, 02:29:07 PM »
What are some of your thoughts on the current Pope? Just curious.  :)
Two things just off the top.

He's headed for "Formal correction" concerning Amoris Laetitia.

He could quite possibly usher in the greatest schism since 1054.

He also could cause the greatest exodous from the RCC since Martin Luther.(which is odd, him being a pope)

Ok three things.

I'm sure this is  all joyous news to you easterners.

None of this is at all likely.
Maybe, maybe not.

But this pope is clearly attempting to rock the fundamental foundations/doctrines  of the Latin Church.

If he keeps going, this clearly will not end well either  for him or the Church.

"Rocking the foundations of the Latin Church" has been the papal job description for centuries.

As for this "liberal pope," his course was set in the Vatican of the '60s. Folks like you lost the battle a long time ago. The only thing ongoing, six decades after, is some sniveling.
We "lost the battle" as much as Christ lost the battle with Rome on Calvary.
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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #51 on: July 04, 2017, 02:34:11 PM »
What are some of your thoughts on the current Pope? Just curious.  :)
Two things just off the top.

He's headed for "Formal correction" concerning Amoris Laetitia.

He could quite possibly usher in the greatest schism since 1054.

He also could cause the greatest exodous from the RCC since Martin Luther.(which is odd, him being a pope)

Ok three things.

I'm sure this is  all joyous news to you easterners.

None of this is at all likely.
Maybe, maybe not.

But this pope is clearly attempting to rock the fundamental foundations/doctrines  of the Latin Church.

If he keeps going, this clearly will not end well either  for him or the Church.

"Rocking the foundations of the Latin Church" has been the papal job description for centuries.

As for this "liberal pope," his course was set in the Vatican of the '60s. Folks like you lost the battle a long time ago. The only thing ongoing, six decades after, is some sniveling.
We "lost the battle" as much as Christ lost the battle with Rome on Calvary.

How Protestant.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #52 on: July 04, 2017, 03:47:13 PM »
Quote
Then whatever they want to "formally correct" him about can't be as serious as a "formal correction" would warrant. 
That is your opinion. Which is not relative in this case.

Why are they formally correcting the Pope? 

Quote
Quote
Perhaps that's the problem. 
I guess you are apathetic to your "pope" as well.

Why would it be a problem for RC's to care about the fate of the Holy Father? Or possible schism within the Church?

The problem is in caring about the Pope as much as you care about the Church. 

Quote
Quote
Hopefully you'll do more than "get by"...return to Orthodoxy.
I agree. But small "o".

Size matters.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #53 on: July 04, 2017, 04:03:50 PM »
Quote
While I'm sure that many Maronites can resonate emotionally to its imagery, it's barely an eastern church in the Maronite tradition, especially for a cathedral.

The melkite parish is way more eastern than the maronite one.

If you judge it solely on the imagery, yes.

Indeed, the actual layout looked a bit like St. Ephrems, except for the positioning of the altar rail.    Usually Maronite parishes look like stripped-down Syriac Orthodox parishes to me (albeit with slightly more icons on display).
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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2017, 04:10:34 PM »
Quote
Then whatever they want to "formally correct" him about can't be as serious as a "formal correction" would warrant. 
That is your opinion. Which is not relative in this case.

Why are they formally correcting the Pope? 

Quote
Quote
Perhaps that's the problem. 
I guess you are apathetic to your "pope" as well.

Why would it be a problem for RC's to care about the fate of the Holy Father? Or possible schism within the Church?

The problem is in caring about the Pope as much as you care about the Church. 

Quote
Quote
Hopefully you'll do more than "get by"...return to Orthodoxy.
I agree. But small "o".

Size matters.

Size does indeed matter.   The RCC is, at its best, when you have a good liturgy and a good bishop, small-o orthodox and small-c catholic; the Orthodox communion is the Catholic Church and the RCC's assesment of us almost perfectly describes their better dioceses.  There are other dioceses in the RCC which are liturgically and dogmatically in a state which I dare to say is heretical, or at least extremely heterodox.

I have some reason to believe that RCC sacraments are efficacious, for the same reason I believe that Episcopalian sacraments are poisonous, but its really best to just be Orthodox.  Oriental, Eastern, Old Calendarist, Old Believer, it doesn't matter, you just want to find a solid Orthodox parish with a good bishop that is canonical with respect to its communion (not a fake parish of some random vagante, like the "Independent Orthodox Church of Hawaii").
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2017, 06:28:57 AM »
I never met Pope Francis before. Maybe I don't have chance to met him in this life. I don't have opinion about Pope Francis.
But I pray for him.
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2017, 07:34:24 AM »
I remain at a loss by the way what this thread has to do with Oriental Orthodoxy; did the OP actually want to know what we OOs think about Pope Francis, or was this thread posted in the wrong forum?
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline youssef

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #57 on: July 05, 2017, 07:39:40 AM »
I remain at a loss by the way what this thread has to do with Oriental Orthodoxy; did the OP actually want to know what we OOs think about Pope Francis, or was this thread posted in the wrong forum?

He posted it when pope francis was on egypt and met the pope Tawadros.They was some kind of agreement. For exemple the coptic orthodox doesn't accept before the catholic baptism. Because of that he ask about pope francis.

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #58 on: July 05, 2017, 12:12:37 PM »
I remain at a loss by the way what this thread has to do with Oriental Orthodoxy; did the OP actually want to know what we OOs think about Pope Francis, or was this thread posted in the wrong forum?

He posted it when pope francis was on egypt and met the pope Tawadros.They was some kind of agreement. For exemple the coptic orthodox doesn't accept before the catholic baptism. Because of that he ask about pope francis.

Well, that clarifies that.

A Syriac Orthodox hieromonk told me to seek out the Catholic church when none of our parishes were availible, because "they are closest to us in faith."   I trust that by "our" he meant any Oriental or Eastern Orthodox parishes, and not just Syriac Orthodox parishes.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline youssef

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #59 on: July 05, 2017, 04:14:56 PM »
I remain at a loss by the way what this thread has to do with Oriental Orthodoxy; did the OP actually want to know what we OOs think about Pope Francis, or was this thread posted in the wrong forum?

He posted it when pope francis was on egypt and met the pope Tawadros.They was some kind of agreement. For exemple the coptic orthodox doesn't accept before the catholic baptism. Because of that he ask about pope francis.

Well, that clarifies that.

A Syriac Orthodox hieromonk told me to seek out the Catholic church when none of our parishes were availible, because "they are closest to us in faith."   I trust that by "our" he meant any Oriental or Eastern Orthodox parishes, and not just Syriac Orthodox parishes.

Who is more closer to you a maronite mass or an eastern orthodox mass.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 04:17:02 PM by youssef »

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #60 on: July 05, 2017, 06:15:37 PM »
That's a tough question.  The Maronites use a watered-down, reconstructed form of the Syriac Orthodox liturgy which replaced an older, extremely Latinized liturgical rite.  The text superficially resembles our services, but is simpler, and arranged into a set of missals for use throughout the year.

I think the Eastern Orthodox liturgy is closer to ours, however, for these reasons:

- Our service opens with the hymn Ho Monoges, which in the EO liturgy is part of the opening sequence, specifically, the Second Antiphon
- Our service features the same luxuriant attention to detail as the EO liturgy, with similiar processions, use of liturgical fans, splendid vestments, and so forth.
- We venerate the Gospel Book in a manner similiar to the EO veneration.
- Our priests wear complex vestments of an authentically Syriac Orthodox design, without the Latinizations of Maronite vesture

- Most importantly, we preserve all of the hymns of the Beth Gazo.  In contrast, Maronites are likely to use praise and worship music.  You will not find an electric guitar or a drum set in a Syriac Orthodox parish.

Other innovations are also avoided.  We use a one year lectionary with similiar lessons and services to the EO lectionary and the old Tridentine lectionary, instead of the Revised Common Lectionary.

Our priesrs can chant.   They sing beautifully, amd sing more than even EO priests; the amount they sing rivals the singing of an EO deacon.   They celebrate ad orientem.

Our women wear veils; we distribute the blessed bread; we use incense in our services, and celebrate memorial services during the liturgy.

We also usually celebrate Morning Prayer before the liturgy, we have a reasonably elaborate Liturgy of Preparation, not as much as in the Byzantine Rite, but nonetheless, a Prothesis on a par with orher ancient rites, amd we use leavened bread.

We do not use sacring bells (although our liturgical fans have bells and tend to be used at the same moments).

I think the Syriac Orthodox liturgy looks and feels much more like the Eastern Orthodox liturgy.

The RCC has the Syriac Catholic and Malankara Catholic churches, which basically use our liturgy with minor modifications, and in the case of the Syriac Catholics, some regional variations, as they were, like the Chaldeans, a breakaway diocese, if memory serves.  Syriac Catholics however wear Latin Rite vestments, for reasons that seem mystifying.

Basically, the Syriac Orthodox liturgy is an Orthodox liturgy; together with the Armenian liturgy, it represents one of the two closest relatives of the Eastern Orthodox liturgy (all three follow an Antiochene pattern).   The Maronite liturgy is textually similiar but watered down to the point where its a bit like going to the Episcopal Church. 
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #61 on: July 15, 2017, 05:55:01 AM »
Quote
Why are they formally correcting the Pope? 
Why did St.Paul correct St. Peter?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+2%3A11-14&version=CEV

Quote
The problem is in caring about the Pope as much as you care about the Church. 
I guess this only applies when it comes to your "pope";



Quote
Size matters.
If that's the case;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #62 on: July 15, 2017, 11:12:28 AM »
That's a tough question.  The Maronites use a watered-down, reconstructed form of the Syriac Orthodox liturgy which replaced an older, extremely Latinized liturgical rite.  The text superficially resembles our services, but is simpler, and arranged into a set of missals for use throughout the year.

- Our priests wear complex vestments of an authentically Syriac Orthodox design, without the Latinizations of Maronite vesture

- Most importantly, we preserve all of the hymns of the Beth Gazo.  In contrast, Maronites are likely to use praise and worship music.  You will not find an electric guitar or a drum set in a Syriac Orthodox parish.

The RCC has the Syriac Catholic and Malankara Catholic churches, which basically use our liturgy with minor modifications, and in the case of the Syriac Catholics, some regional variations, as they were, like the Chaldeans, a breakaway diocese, if memory serves.  Syriac Catholics however wear Latin Rite vestments, for reasons that seem mystifying.

The Maronite liturgy is textually similiar but watered down to the point where its a bit like going to the Episcopal Church.

Other than the Latin-style mitre what Latin vestments do Maronites/Syriacs wear?  I am not aware of any.  As to the Maronite Liturgy being watered down I find it false.  The prayers I am looking at are essentially the same.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #63 on: July 15, 2017, 11:34:28 AM »
Quote
Why are they formally correcting the Pope? 
Why did St.Paul correct St. Peter?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+2%3A11-14&version=CEV

St Paul didn't believe in papal infallibility, universal, immediate, ordinary jurisdiction, etc.  Neither did St Peter. 

Quote
Quote
The problem is in caring about the Pope as much as you care about the Church. 
I guess this only applies when it comes to your "pope";


He could be wrong.  Sometimes he was wrong.  We say so with respect.  We don't pretend he was 100% correct in everything and then do something totally different because we know he's wrong but our house of cards would fall apart if we admitted that publicly. 

Quote
Quote
Size matters.
If that's the case;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members

I was talking about big-O vs little-O Orthodoxy.  Your denomination has neither. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #64 on: July 15, 2017, 11:36:47 AM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #65 on: July 15, 2017, 11:40:32 AM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???

O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline WPM

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #66 on: July 15, 2017, 11:54:55 AM »
So if I say Bible-believing Christians it's loaded with anti-protestant baggage? ...
Learn meditation.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #67 on: July 15, 2017, 11:55:44 AM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???

The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #68 on: July 15, 2017, 11:56:51 AM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???
convert to the traditional Catholic faith of all time, sedevacantism is merely a position..the correct one in these end times , we simply know the Vatican 2 popes are not legitimate...Pope Francis is a lunatic


Please, use the proper clergy titles.
Dominika, GM
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 07:32:45 PM by Dominika »

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #69 on: July 15, 2017, 11:59:12 AM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???

The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
what nonsense are you talking about, we haven't had a true pope since 1958

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #70 on: July 15, 2017, 12:03:02 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???

The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
what nonsense are you talking about, we haven't had a true pope since 1958

Delusion.  You haven't had a true Pope since 451.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #71 on: July 15, 2017, 12:08:53 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???

The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
what nonsense are you talking about, we haven't had a true pope since 1958

Delusion.  You haven't had a true Pope since 451.
you base your ridiculous belief on what?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #72 on: July 15, 2017, 12:12:11 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???

The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
what nonsense are you talking about, we haven't had a true pope since 1958

Delusion.  You haven't had a true Pope since 451.
you base your ridiculous belief on what?

Pernicious Latin errors and the devastation they have unleashed on Christianity (and the earth) for nearly sixteen centuries. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #73 on: July 15, 2017, 12:28:30 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???

The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
what nonsense are you talking about, we haven't had a true pope since 1958

Delusion.  You haven't had a true Pope since 451.
you base your ridiculous belief on what?

Pernicious Latin errors and the devastation they have unleashed on Christianity (and the earth) for nearly sixteen centuries.
give me 1 example of a Latin error you are talking about in your delusion....I can't tell if you are joking or on meds

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #74 on: July 15, 2017, 12:30:37 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???

The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
what nonsense are you talking about, we haven't had a true pope since 1958

Delusion.  You haven't had a true Pope since 451.
you base your ridiculous belief on what?

Pernicious Latin errors and the devastation they have unleashed on Christianity (and the earth) for nearly sixteen centuries.
give me 1 example of a Latin error you are talking about in your delusion....I can't tell if you are joking or on meds

If someone who thinks there's been a "Latin error" is "on meds," then what's a sedevacantist like you on?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline servulus

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #75 on: July 15, 2017, 12:32:39 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???

The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
what nonsense are you talking about, we haven't had a true pope since 1958
How many true Bishops do you have?
If they haven't made a pope in nearly 60 years and your bishops are dwindling what makes you think there will be one in the future. Do the few bishops that aren't in nursing homes that are sedevacantist believe similarly enough to elect or consecrate a bishop to be pope? Why not follow Michael Bawden, at least they tried.

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #76 on: July 15, 2017, 12:40:13 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???

The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
what nonsense are you talking about, we haven't had a true pope since 1958

Delusion.  You haven't had a true Pope since 451.
you base your ridiculous belief on what?

Pernicious Latin errors and the devastation they have unleashed on Christianity (and the earth) for nearly sixteen centuries.
give me 1 example of a Latin error you are talking about in your delusion....I can't tell if you are joking or on meds

If someone who thinks there's been a "Latin error" is "on meds," then what's a sedevacantist like you on?
someone who thinks we haven't had a true pope since 451 is on meds, a sedevacantist who claims after 1958 we haven't had a true pope is merely stating the facts of the matter, clear for anyone of good will

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #77 on: July 15, 2017, 12:42:35 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???

The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
what nonsense are you talking about, we haven't had a true pope since 1958
How many true Bishops do you have?
If they haven't made a pope in nearly 60 years and your bishops are dwindling what makes you think there will be one in the future. Do the few bishops that aren't in nursing homes that are sedevacantist believe similarly enough to elect or consecrate a bishop to be pope? Why not follow Michael Bawden, at least they tried.

The seminary flunky whose mom elected him Pope?  That's called trying?
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #78 on: July 15, 2017, 12:43:45 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???

The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
what nonsense are you talking about, we haven't had a true pope since 1958

Delusion.  You haven't had a true Pope since 451.
you base your ridiculous belief on what?

Pernicious Latin errors and the devastation they have unleashed on Christianity (and the earth) for nearly sixteen centuries.
give me 1 example of a Latin error you are talking about in your delusion....I can't tell if you are joking or on meds

If someone who thinks there's been a "Latin error" is "on meds," then what's a sedevacantist like you on?
someone who thinks we haven't had a true pope since 451 is on meds, a sedevacantist who claims after 1958 we haven't had a true pope is merely stating the facts of the matter, clear for anyone of good will

At least you're trolling openly.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline WPM

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #79 on: July 15, 2017, 12:47:47 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???

The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.


I think its a quality history of the church pontiff.
Learn meditation.

Offline WPM

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #80 on: July 15, 2017, 12:59:31 PM »
I remain at a loss by the way what this thread has to do with Oriental Orthodoxy; did the OP actually want to know what we OOs think about Pope Francis, or was this thread posted in the wrong forum?

He posted it when pope francis was on egypt and met the pope Tawadros.They was some kind of agreement. For exemple the coptic orthodox doesn't accept before the catholic baptism. Because of that he ask about pope francis.

Well, that clarifies that.

A Syriac Orthodox hieromonk told me to seek out the Catholic church when none of our parishes were availible, because "they are closest to us in faith."   I trust that by "our" he meant any Oriental or Eastern Orthodox parishes, and not just Syriac Orthodox parishes.

Who is more closer to you a maronite mass or an eastern orthodox mass.


Western Rite Orthodox is almost Catholic/High Church Anglican
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Offline servulus

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #81 on: July 15, 2017, 02:21:13 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???
The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
what nonsense are you talking about, we haven't had a true pope since 1958
How many true Bishops do you have?
If they haven't made a pope in nearly 60 years and your bishops are dwindling what makes you think there will be one in the future. Do the few bishops that aren't in nursing homes that are sedevacantist believe similarly enough to elect or consecrate a bishop to be pope? Why not follow Michael Bawden, at least they tried.


The seminary flunky whose mom elected him Pope?  That's called trying?
I don't take pope Michael seriously, but I think that is where sedevacantism ends up. Who will elect the next pope, the residents of Rome? They have a few wacky bishops that have questionable lines and a few that are valid but very old. I don't think there is any hope in sedevacantism, even in the less tinfoil hat parts. That is why I didn't go that direction. So I guess what I was trying to say was, if the Church has gone so long without a leader and there is no change in sight, you may as well be following pope Michael.



Offline Jackson02

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #82 on: July 15, 2017, 06:07:11 PM »
I never met Pope Francis before. Maybe I don't have chance to met him in this life. I don't have opinion about Pope Francis.
But I pray for him.
Agreed, The man is to left wing.
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Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #83 on: July 16, 2017, 02:58:26 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???
The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
what nonsense are you talking about, we haven't had a true pope since 1958
How many true Bishops do you have?
If they haven't made a pope in nearly 60 years and your bishops are dwindling what makes you think there will be one in the future. Do the few bishops that aren't in nursing homes that are sedevacantist believe similarly enough to elect or consecrate a bishop to be pope? Why not follow Michael Bawden, at least they tried.


The seminary flunky whose mom elected him Pope?  That's called trying?
I don't take pope Michael seriously, but I think that is where sedevacantism ends up. Who will elect the next pope, the residents of Rome? They have a few wacky bishops that have questionable lines and a few that are valid but very old. I don't think there is any hope in sedevacantism, even in the less tinfoil hat parts. That is why I didn't go that direction. So I guess what I was trying to say was, if the Church has gone so long without a leader and there is no change in sight, you may as well be following pope Michael.
you seem confused, as if sedevacantism is a religion..it's not...you can say there's no hope in the conciliar church ever turning Catholic...what happens in the future is not for me to say,God will sort it out

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #84 on: July 16, 2017, 05:08:31 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???
The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
what nonsense are you talking about, we haven't had a true pope since 1958
How many true Bishops do you have?
If they haven't made a pope in nearly 60 years and your bishops are dwindling what makes you think there will be one in the future. Do the few bishops that aren't in nursing homes that are sedevacantist believe similarly enough to elect or consecrate a bishop to be pope? Why not follow Michael Bawden, at least they tried.


The seminary flunky whose mom elected him Pope?  That's called trying?
I don't take pope Michael seriously, but I think that is where sedevacantism ends up. Who will elect the next pope, the residents of Rome? They have a few wacky bishops that have questionable lines and a few that are valid but very old. I don't think there is any hope in sedevacantism, even in the less tinfoil hat parts. That is why I didn't go that direction. So I guess what I was trying to say was, if the Church has gone so long without a leader and there is no change in sight, you may as well be following pope Michael.
you seem confused, as if sedevacantism is a religion..it's not...you can say there's no hope in the conciliar church ever turning Catholic...what happens in the future is not for me to say,God will sort it out

It was already sorted out in 451 and you lost.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline servulus

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #85 on: July 16, 2017, 05:31:53 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???
The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
what nonsense are you talking about, we haven't had a true pope since 1958
How many true Bishops do you have?
If they haven't made a pope in nearly 60 years and your bishops are dwindling what makes you think there will be one in the future. Do the few bishops that aren't in nursing homes that are sedevacantist believe similarly enough to elect or consecrate a bishop to be pope? Why not follow Michael Bawden, at least they tried.


The seminary flunky whose mom elected him Pope?  That's called trying?
I don't take pope Michael seriously, but I think that is where sedevacantism ends up. Who will elect the next pope, the residents of Rome? They have a few wacky bishops that have questionable lines and a few that are valid but very old. I don't think there is any hope in sedevacantism, even in the less tinfoil hat parts. That is why I didn't go that direction. So I guess what I was trying to say was, if the Church has gone so long without a leader and there is no change in sight, you may as well be following pope Michael.
you seem confused, as if sedevacantism is a religion..it's not...you can say there's no hope in the conciliar church ever turning Catholic...what happens in the future is not for me to say,God will sort it out
So where is the Catholic Church?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 05:32:47 PM by servulus »

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #86 on: July 16, 2017, 05:42:09 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???
The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
what nonsense are you talking about, we haven't had a true pope since 1958
How many true Bishops do you have?
If they haven't made a pope in nearly 60 years and your bishops are dwindling what makes you think there will be one in the future. Do the few bishops that aren't in nursing homes that are sedevacantist believe similarly enough to elect or consecrate a bishop to be pope? Why not follow Michael Bawden, at least they tried.


The seminary flunky whose mom elected him Pope?  That's called trying?
I don't take pope Michael seriously, but I think that is where sedevacantism ends up. Who will elect the next pope, the residents of Rome? They have a few wacky bishops that have questionable lines and a few that are valid but very old. I don't think there is any hope in sedevacantism, even in the less tinfoil hat parts. That is why I didn't go that direction. So I guess what I was trying to say was, if the Church has gone so long without a leader and there is no change in sight, you may as well be following pope Michael.
you seem confused, as if sedevacantism is a religion..it's not...you can say there's no hope in the conciliar church ever turning Catholic...what happens in the future is not for me to say,God will sort it out
So where is the Catholic Church?

St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."

Further, it should be noted that the Church has defined that heretics are the gates of Hell which Our Lord mentioned in Matthew 16! 
Pope Vigilius, Second Council of Constantinople, 553: “… we bear in mind what was promised about the holy Church and Him who said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (by these we understand the death-dealing tongues of heretics)…”3 
Pope St. Leo IX, Sept. 2, 1053: “The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter… because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction, it would never be overcome.”4 
St. Thomas Aquinas (+1262): “Wisdom may fill the hearts of the faithful, and put to silence the dread folly of heretics, fittingly referred to as the gates of Hell.”5 (Intro. To Catena Aurea.)

Offline Quinault

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #87 on: July 16, 2017, 05:53:17 PM »
I have a great deal of respect for how Pope Francis has chosen to live a more simple life compared to his predecessors.

I have an even greater respect for his public support of breastfeeding.


Offline Jackson02

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #88 on: July 16, 2017, 05:54:13 PM »
I have a great deal of respect for how Pope Francis has chosen to live a more simple life compared to his predecessors.

I have an even greater respect for his public support of breastfeeding.
Why would breastfeeding be an issue?
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #89 on: July 16, 2017, 06:03:42 PM »
I have a great deal of respect for how Pope Francis has chosen to live a more simple life compared to his predecessors.

I have an even greater respect for his public support of breastfeeding.
Why would breastfeeding be an issue?

Why, indeed. But we live in an increasingly fallen world.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #90 on: July 16, 2017, 06:04:20 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???
The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
what nonsense are you talking about, we haven't had a true pope since 1958
How many true Bishops do you have?
If they haven't made a pope in nearly 60 years and your bishops are dwindling what makes you think there will be one in the future. Do the few bishops that aren't in nursing homes that are sedevacantist believe similarly enough to elect or consecrate a bishop to be pope? Why not follow Michael Bawden, at least they tried.


The seminary flunky whose mom elected him Pope?  That's called trying?
I don't take pope Michael seriously, but I think that is where sedevacantism ends up. Who will elect the next pope, the residents of Rome? They have a few wacky bishops that have questionable lines and a few that are valid but very old. I don't think there is any hope in sedevacantism, even in the less tinfoil hat parts. That is why I didn't go that direction. So I guess what I was trying to say was, if the Church has gone so long without a leader and there is no change in sight, you may as well be following pope Michael.
you seem confused, as if sedevacantism is a religion..it's not...you can say there's no hope in the conciliar church ever turning Catholic...what happens in the future is not for me to say,God will sort it out
So where is the Catholic Church?

St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."

Further, it should be noted that the Church has defined that heretics are the gates of Hell which Our Lord mentioned in Matthew 16! 
Pope Vigilius, Second Council of Constantinople, 553: “… we bear in mind what was promised about the holy Church and Him who said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (by these we understand the death-dealing tongues of heretics)…”3 
Pope St. Leo IX, Sept. 2, 1053: “The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter… because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction, it would never be overcome.”4 
St. Thomas Aquinas (+1262): “Wisdom may fill the hearts of the faithful, and put to silence the dread folly of heretics, fittingly referred to as the gates of Hell.”5 (Intro. To Catena Aurea.)

Gosh, you guys are even sadder than I imagined.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Quinault

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #91 on: July 16, 2017, 06:06:52 PM »
I have a great deal of respect for how Pope Francis has chosen to live a more simple life compared to his predecessors.

I have an even greater respect for his public support of breastfeeding.
Why would breastfeeding be an issue?

Most Catholic (and quite a few Orthodox) women I've known are told they must leave the service if they need to breastfeed their child. This is particularly awkward when baby decides during the baptismal service that they need to eat RIGHT FREAKING NOW.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 06:07:29 PM by Quinault »

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #92 on: July 16, 2017, 07:18:47 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???

The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
what nonsense are you talking about, we haven't had a true pope since 1958

Why are you so confident Pope John XXIII was not a pope?

Why is Pope Pius XII off the hook for you guys? He hired Abp. Bugnini in the first place, mucked up the Holy Week services, suppressed the ancient system of ranking feasts, suppressed most of the octaves, replaced the traditional Mass for the Assumption, tried to replace the Vulgate Psalter, etc.

Why is Pope Pius X off the hook for you guys? He got the modern liturgical ball rolling; he suppressed the ancient Roman order of chanting the psalter, killed the tradition of chanting Psalms 148-150 at Lauds, divorced feast from psalmody by removing festal psalms from most feasts, invented novel rankings for octaves, replaced the traditional suffrages at Lauds and Vespers, etc.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline servulus

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #93 on: July 16, 2017, 08:17:41 PM »

St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."

Further, it should be noted that the Church has defined that heretics are the gates of Hell which Our Lord mentioned in Matthew 16! 
Pope Vigilius, Second Council of Constantinople, 553: “… we bear in mind what was promised about the holy Church and Him who said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (by these we understand the death-dealing tongues of heretics)…”3 
Pope St. Leo IX, Sept. 2, 1053: “The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter… because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction, it would never be overcome.”4 
St. Thomas Aquinas (+1262): “Wisdom may fill the hearts of the faithful, and put to silence the dread folly of heretics, fittingly referred to as the gates of Hell.”5 (Intro. To Catena Aurea.)
When I was a traditional Catholic we clung to that quote by St. Athanasius as well. For me, it seemed that if sedevacantism were true then the Church was an invisible church. How would you know if the gates of hell had prevailed? There is nothing there except the hope that God will somehow intervene and supply a hierarchy.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 08:18:20 PM by servulus »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #94 on: July 16, 2017, 08:19:54 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???

The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
what nonsense are you talking about, we haven't had a true pope since 1958

Why are you so confident Pope John XXIII was not a pope?

Why is Pope Pius XII off the hook for you guys? He hired Abp. Bugnini in the first place, mucked up the Holy Week services, suppressed the ancient system of ranking feasts, suppressed most of the octaves, replaced the traditional Mass for the Assumption, tried to replace the Vulgate Psalter, etc.

Why is Pope Pius X off the hook for you guys? He got the modern liturgical ball rolling; he suppressed the ancient Roman order of chanting the psalter, killed the tradition of chanting Psalms 148-150 at Lauds, divorced feast from psalmody by removing festal psalms from most feasts, invented novel rankings for octaves, replaced the traditional suffrages at Lauds and Vespers, etc.

Probe too deeply in this vein, and the thread might turn into Politics forum material.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #95 on: July 16, 2017, 08:39:07 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???

The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
what nonsense are you talking about, we haven't had a true pope since 1958

Why are you so confident Pope John XXIII was not a pope?

Why is Pope Pius XII off the hook for you guys? He hired Abp. Bugnini in the first place, mucked up the Holy Week services, suppressed the ancient system of ranking feasts, suppressed most of the octaves, replaced the traditional Mass for the Assumption, tried to replace the Vulgate Psalter, etc.

Why is Pope Pius X off the hook for you guys? He got the modern liturgical ball rolling; he suppressed the ancient Roman order of chanting the psalter, killed the tradition of chanting Psalms 148-150 at Lauds, divorced feast from psalmody by removing festal psalms from most feasts, invented novel rankings for octaves, replaced the traditional suffrages at Lauds and Vespers, etc.

I agree.   This is the major problem with the SSPX and the diocesan Latin masses; they are using a liturgy that was already severely damaged.  The changes made by Pope Pius XII are corruptions, unlike those made by Pius X, which could be said to be repair and restoration of Gregorian chant, similiar in some respects to the traditional liturgical approach favored by ROCOR.

I don't think any of these changes by Pius XII were imported back into the WRO liturgy; someone seeking the purest possible Western Rite experience should seek out the Western Rite Orthodox.   

However, we OOs at present aren't in that business.  Although I have heard there was a Western Rite community in Sri Lanka under the IOC, which died off.
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This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #96 on: July 16, 2017, 08:51:59 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.

Convert to Sedevacantism???

The See has been vacant since Pope Leo I.
what nonsense are you talking about, we haven't had a true pope since 1958

Why are you so confident Pope John XXIII was not a pope?

Why is Pope Pius XII off the hook for you guys? He hired Abp. Bugnini in the first place, mucked up the Holy Week services, suppressed the ancient system of ranking feasts, suppressed most of the octaves, replaced the traditional Mass for the Assumption, tried to replace the Vulgate Psalter, etc.

Why is Pope Pius X off the hook for you guys? He got the modern liturgical ball rolling; he suppressed the ancient Roman order of chanting the psalter, killed the tradition of chanting Psalms 148-150 at Lauds, divorced feast from psalmody by removing festal psalms from most feasts, invented novel rankings for octaves, replaced the traditional suffrages at Lauds and Vespers, etc.

I agree.   This is the major problem with the SSPX and the diocesan Latin masses; they are using a liturgy that was already severely damaged.

That's the major problem?

Quote
I don't think any of these changes by Pius XII were imported back into the WRO liturgy; someone seeking the purest possible Western Rite experience should seek out the Western Rite Orthodox.

What's your basis for saying these things?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Jackson02

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #98 on: September 26, 2017, 08:42:26 PM »
Francis like all the post Vatican 2 popes are anti Christ's , anti catholic. Convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul.
Nah i'm good.
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Offline Jackson02

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #99 on: September 26, 2017, 08:45:04 PM »
Having been raised in the Roman Church, and the Aglican Church, I was fonder by far of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.
There is practically no difference between Pope Francis and Pope John Paul II, both were and are ecumenists which sought and seek to modernize the Roman church by saying that Vatican II is irreversible. Pope Benedict XVI was a little better because he actually brought back some of the things that hadn't been used in the Roman Catholic church for years.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 08:48:19 PM by Jackson02 »
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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #100 on: September 26, 2017, 08:58:45 PM »
The Pope is like the head of the water department; he has his job to do and it somehow affects me but I don't dwell on his person. People think that's what Catholicism's about and they're wrong.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #101 on: September 26, 2017, 09:18:39 PM »
The Pope is like the head of the water department; he has his job to do and it somehow affects me but I don't dwell on his person. People think that's what Catholicism's about and they're wrong.

LOL.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #102 on: September 26, 2017, 10:18:55 PM »

St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."

Further, it should be noted that the Church has defined that heretics are the gates of Hell which Our Lord mentioned in Matthew 16! 
Pope Vigilius, Second Council of Constantinople, 553: “… we bear in mind what was promised about the holy Church and Him who said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (by these we understand the death-dealing tongues of heretics)…”3 
Pope St. Leo IX, Sept. 2, 1053: “The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter… because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction, it would never be overcome.”4 
St. Thomas Aquinas (+1262): “Wisdom may fill the hearts of the faithful, and put to silence the dread folly of heretics, fittingly referred to as the gates of Hell.”5 (Intro. To Catena Aurea.)
When I was a traditional Catholic we clung to that quote by St. Athanasius as well. For me, it seemed that if sedevacantism were true then the Church was an invisible church. How would you know if the gates of hell had prevailed? There is nothing there except the hope that God will somehow intervene and supply a hierarchy.

Why not Zoidberg Conclavism?
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #103 on: September 26, 2017, 11:18:42 PM »
The Pope is like the head of the water department; he has his job to do and it somehow affects me but I don't dwell on his person. People think that's what Catholicism's about and they're wrong.

Except that according to Unam Sanctam, it is "absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to" this particular water department head.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #104 on: September 26, 2017, 11:39:53 PM »
The Pope is like the head of the water department; he has his job to do and it somehow affects me but I don't dwell on his person. People think that's what Catholicism's about and they're wrong.
Except that according to Unam Sanctam, it is "absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to" this particular water department head.
I find it amazing how Catholics, devout or not, arbitrarily swing between the "water department head" and the Unam Sanctam extremes to defend the indefensible supremacy of the pope.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #105 on: September 26, 2017, 11:50:30 PM »
There is practically no difference between Pope Francis and Pope John Paul II, both were and are ecumenists which sought and seek to modernize the Roman church by saying that Vatican II is irreversible. Pope Benedict XVI was a little better because he actually brought back some of the things that hadn't been used in the Roman Catholic church for years.
Pope JPII was a brilliant philosopher and an top Catholic theologian, unlike Pope FI, whose foot can usually be found in his mouth.

However, one trait that unites all popes since Pope PVI is their nonchalance about the liturgy.  Truly, Pope BXVI did try to improve the state of the liturgy, already eroded by his successor, but neither him and the other popes did anything to make the public liturgies in the Vatican glorious worship.  Again, Pope BXVI did use to celebrate less public or private liturgies gloriously, but even the pinnacle of liturgy, Pascha, televised to the whole world has been pretty much more of the same for half a century.

I guess that the there are swamp creatures in the Vatican and any maverick who dares to make the liturgy glorious again (MLGA©) is bound to be fiercely resisted and sabotaged to failure.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 11:50:40 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline Jackson02

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #106 on: September 27, 2017, 12:41:21 AM »
There is practically no difference between Pope Francis and Pope John Paul II, both were and are ecumenists which sought and seek to modernize the Roman church by saying that Vatican II is irreversible. Pope Benedict XVI was a little better because he actually brought back some of the things that hadn't been used in the Roman Catholic church for years.
Pope JPII was a brilliant philosopher and an top Catholic theologian, unlike Pope FI, whose foot can usually be found in his mouth.

However, one trait that unites all popes since Pope PVI is their nonchalance about the liturgy.  Truly, Pope BXVI did try to improve the state of the liturgy, already eroded by his successor, but neither him and the other popes did anything to make the public liturgies in the Vatican glorious worship.  Again, Pope BXVI did use to celebrate less public or private liturgies gloriously, but even the pinnacle of liturgy, Pascha, televised to the whole world has been pretty much more of the same for half a century.

I guess that the there are swamp creatures in the Vatican and any maverick who dares to make the liturgy glorious again (MLGA©) is bound to be fiercely resisted and sabotaged to failure.
True Pope Benedict XVI could have done a lot more to help the Roman church and was still an ecumenist, I guess they will never get an actual Roman Catholic Pope that would condemn Vatican II as heresy.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 12:43:37 AM by Jackson02 »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #107 on: September 27, 2017, 01:27:47 AM »
There is practically no difference between Pope Francis and Pope John Paul II, both were and are ecumenists which sought and seek to modernize the Roman church by saying that Vatican II is irreversible. Pope Benedict XVI was a little better because he actually brought back some of the things that hadn't been used in the Roman Catholic church for years.
Pope JPII was a brilliant philosopher and an top Catholic theologian, unlike Pope FI, whose foot can usually be found in his mouth.

However, one trait that unites all popes since Pope PVI is their nonchalance about the liturgy.  Truly, Pope BXVI did try to improve the state of the liturgy, already eroded by his successor, but neither him and the other popes did anything to make the public liturgies in the Vatican glorious worship.  Again, Pope BXVI did use to celebrate less public or private liturgies gloriously, but even the pinnacle of liturgy, Pascha, televised to the whole world has been pretty much more of the same for half a century.

I guess that the there are swamp creatures in the Vatican and any maverick who dares to make the liturgy glorious again (MLGA©) is bound to be fiercely resisted and sabotaged to failure.
True Pope Benedict XVI could have done a lot more to help the Roman church and was still an ecumenist, I guess they will never get an actual Roman Catholic Pope that would condemn Vatican II as heresy.

They can't without undermining the credibility of the magisterium, can they?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 01:29:30 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline Anastasia1

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #108 on: September 27, 2017, 02:01:45 AM »
Negatives: he is vague with media in order to appear politically correct; he's not Orthodox
Positives: he has increased awareness for more social services and seems to have a genuine kindness, humility, and simplicity of heart
You might be on to something here.
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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #109 on: September 27, 2017, 02:55:15 AM »
Negatives: he is vague with media in order to appear politically correct; he's not Orthodox
Positives: he has increased awareness for more social services and seems to have a genuine kindness, humility, and simplicity of heart
You might be on to something here.

+1

Negatives: I think Pope Francis is much too loose and imprecise with his language. And patriarchs are supposed to be very precise with their language, because they are entrusted leaders on doctrine and morality. Better for a pope to be boring and precise than poetic and ambiguous. I'm also not a fan of his advocacy of the climate change movement. Why can't he just be an authentic environmentalist that finds his environmentalist philosophy in the mandate and ethic of the scriptures? Surely he's informed enough to know that the global warming movement is linked to the ideology of population control, which advocates abortion and birth control as environmentally responsible courses of action.

Positives: I appreciate the Pope's consistent life ethic and his articulation of the "seamless garment" of social justice, of which opposing abortion is an essential element. And he has been clear on this point. I also appreciate his ability to embrace the "liberation theology" ethic of prioritizing the "least of these" while condemning the communism and violence that permeated much of Latin American liberation theology.

Overall I think he is a sincere man who is trying to emphasize tolerance and compassion for all of God's creation. But I think in his efforts to do so he compromises the rigid doctrinal and moral precision that is vitally necessary to achieve true compassion and true tolerance.

Selam



« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 02:56:30 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #110 on: September 27, 2017, 03:01:26 AM »
Negatives: he is vague with media in order to appear politically correct; he's not Orthodox
Positives: he has increased awareness for more social services and seems to have a genuine kindness, humility, and simplicity of heart
You might be on to something here.

+1

Negatives: I think Pope Francis is much too loose and imprecise with his language. And patriarchs are supposed to be very precise with their language, because they are entrusted leaders on doctrine and morality. Better for a pope to be boring and precise than poetic and ambiguous. I'm also not a fan of his advocacy of the climate change movement. Why can't he just be an authentic environmentalist that finds his environmentalist philosophy in the mandate and ethic of the scriptures? Surely he's informed enough to know that the global warming movement is linked to the ideology of population control, which advocates abortion and birth control as environmentally responsible courses of action.

Positives: I appreciate the Pope's consistent life ethic and his articulation of the "seamless garment" of social justice, of which opposing abortion is an essential element. And he has been clear on this point. I also appreciate his ability to embrace the "liberation theology" ethic of prioritizing the "least of these" while condemning the communism and violence that permeated much of Latin American liberation theology.

Overall I think he is a sincere man who is trying to emphasize tolerance and compassion for all of God's creation. But I think in his efforts to do so he compromises the rigid doctrinal and moral precision that is vitally necessary to achieve true compassion and true tolerance.

Selam

+1
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Thoughts on Pope Francis?
« Reply #111 on: September 27, 2017, 09:22:17 AM »
... I guess they will never get an actual Roman Catholic Pope that would condemn Vatican II as heresy.
They can't without undermining the credibility of the magisterium, can they?
First off, popes could at least clarify it.  For instance, jurisdiction.  It was a Western council, indifferent to the East, even with a token participation of Eastern bishops, and many of its statements cannot but be about governance, discipline or rite of the Roman Church.  Again, many statements were just about governance, which may change and even pastorally "bent" by bishops.  Even the English title of some of its documents includes the word "dogmatic", it is clearly not wholly so.  And, once the council is thus framed, it doesn't even need to be declared heretic, which it was, but just a pastoral one and subject to review.

Of course, the odds are nil, if it depends on the Roman hierarchy and faithful, too far gone the deep end.  Only a miracle would do it.  :angel:
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