Author Topic: Transhumanism  (Read 12987 times)

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Offline Shiny

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Transhumanism
« on: June 27, 2011, 10:20:51 PM »
Wanted to open up a thread and discuss this issue because I feel it will be more prevelant in a few decades time.

How close do you think we will be until all suffering becomes eliminated from the human race? Or changing the genetic code to live longer?

I'm sure our world would turn into a Wall-E and Brave New World scenario. I do believe it is the worst and most dangerous idea ever poised by humans right next to artifical intelligence that could create their own emotions/thoughts/feelings ala Terminator. I wonder how much of this cultural movement is really science though.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2011, 11:16:46 PM »
I don't know what the future holds but I know that God will be there.
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Offline John of the North

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2011, 11:25:54 PM »
Wanted to open up a thread and discuss this issue because I feel it will be more prevelant in a few decades time.

How close do you think we will be until all suffering becomes eliminated from the human race? Or changing the genetic code to live longer?

I'm sure our world would turn into a Wall-E and Brave New World scenario. I do believe it is the worst and most dangerous idea ever poised by humans right next to artifical intelligence that could create their own emotions/thoughts/feelings ala Terminator. I wonder how much of this cultural movement is really science though.

Transhumanism may be a demonic ideology, but I'm reasonably confident it will be headed off by resource scarcity.
“Find the door of your heart, and you will discover it is the door to the kingdom of God.” - St. John Chrysostom

Offline bogdan

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2011, 12:25:59 AM »
I think it is probably technically possible, but I really don't see the visions of Ray Kurzweil coming true any time soon. Certainly not by 2040 or whenever. Not with our world as unstable as it's getting. Such visions could only arise in the heady pre-dot com bubble days.

@ John - Only until the nanobots figure out how to cannibalize the matter of the planet itself and gobble it all up in their mad dash of replication. :D

I'm not worried. They want to live forever, and I already know I am going to. My concern is with ensuring it will be a happy eternity and not a sad one.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 12:27:51 AM by bogdan »

Offline Shiny

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2011, 01:57:23 AM »
Wanted to open up a thread and discuss this issue because I feel it will be more prevelant in a few decades time.

How close do you think we will be until all suffering becomes eliminated from the human race? Or changing the genetic code to live longer?

I'm sure our world would turn into a Wall-E and Brave New World scenario. I do believe it is the worst and most dangerous idea ever poised by humans right next to artifical intelligence that could create their own emotions/thoughts/feelings ala Terminator. I wonder how much of this cultural movement is really science though.

Transhumanism may be a demonic ideology, but I'm reasonably confident it will be headed off by resource scarcity.

Could you possibly expand on this?
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2011, 01:46:18 PM »
In my opinion, which is not the most informed scientific opinion in the world (I am by no means a theoretical physicist or even an engineer, nor do I fancy myself as such), disease and suffering will never be wiped out by mankind (by God, one day, but not until the end of times).  This is because single-celled organisms are CONSTANTLY evolving.  They take on new forms that are immune to medications existing when they do so, and consequently, take new research to fight.  Then there are things like AIDS and Ebola which haven't always, if I'm not mistaken, been around.  Plus all of the potential for a man-made virus (which is why I really think that it is dangerous for governments to play around with weaponizing single-celled organisms, and what not), either by a government, or by a terrorist group.  Not to mention the fact that it will be nearly impossible (scientifically speaking) to prevent accidental death - something that is probably (I can't really speak from personal experience, having only known a few people who have died, and none of them unexpectedly, really) a lot more emotionally troubling than death from a long-term disease or old age.  Then of course there are the intentional deaths (i.e. suicide and murder).  These things cause suffering.  That is just suffering from death (and in the case of some diseases, long-term pain).  It doesn't even take into account all of the ways we can damage each other emotionally, even through something as simple and easy as cruel words.

As for the genetic code being altered to extend life, I guess my opinion would depend on what is meant by "altered."  I know that scientists are close to (or appear to a layman to be) solving Progeria (sp?) and once they do that, I imagine it is only a matter of time before such medications can be applied to normal persons to slow down the ageing process. 

As to the larger topic of Transhumanism, I would say it is - or at least can be - demonic.  My reason for thinking such is that it stems from fear, a fear of death.  This is not the normal type of fear of death, that almost everyone has, which stems from not knowing exactly what is to await you on the other side.  Rather, this type of fear of death stems from a fear of total annihilation because the majority of Transhumanists are atheists or agnostics.  Atheists and agnostics do not believe that there is a God (real agnostics only accept the possibility of God).  When you don't believe that there is a God, and you don't believe in the soul - which inevitably comes from atheism and agnosticism - you cannot believe in existence after physical death because life becomes nothing but chemical processes, there is nothing more to it.  Transhumanists make absurd claims (such as completely integrating humanity and computers by the middle of the century) because they are frightened and want to believe that they will continue to be, 300 years after their birth.  They don't want to face the possibility that they can cease to be.  What makes Transhumanism demonic is that it takes people away from thinking about life and the after-life by focusing on a search within themselves and a search for God, and twists that fear of ceasing to exist and of death into a technological search for the next big thing that can keep them going in their present life.  It is a demonic delusion that leads people away from God.
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Offline CRCulver

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2011, 02:13:28 PM »
Transhumanist thinking doesn't take God into account much, true. Still, I find most of the "it's unnatural!" arguments against transhumanism to apply to conventional medicine, yet no one bats an eye at researchers searching for diets, medication and pacemakers that can extend life further.  Is extending life by 20 or 30 years OK, but 300 years is automatically a demonic pursuit? Where do we draw the line?

I imagine most people interested in transhumanism are aware that, in a universe marked by entropy, there's no real physical immortality by our own efforts. From a Christian perspective, there's still room for God's mercy and Christ's atoning death on the cross.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 02:15:01 PM by CRCulver »

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2011, 04:31:04 PM »
Transhumanist thinking doesn't take God into account much, true. Still, I find most of the "it's unnatural!" arguments against transhumanism to apply to conventional medicine, yet no one bats an eye at researchers searching for diets, medication and pacemakers that can extend life further.  Is extending life by 20 or 30 years OK, but 300 years is automatically a demonic pursuit? Where do we draw the line?

I imagine most people interested in transhumanism are aware that, in a universe marked by entropy, there's no real physical immortality by our own efforts. From a Christian perspective, there's still room for God's mercy and Christ's atoning death on the cross.

If this is directed at me, I just want to clarify.  I don't think there is anything wrong with their goals of extending human life (though I do think there is something wrong with massive integration of computers and humanity, especially to the point of "uploading" our minds onto computers, because it shows a fundamental disrespect for creation, and a disunity between body and soul which is unOrthodox) for hundreds of years, per se.  Rather, it is their reasoning.  It is because they despise the idea of God, and because they are being led by demonic delusions down a path to distract them from God.  When you are convinced that if you live to 2040, you will be able to live forever on earth, you don't much need God.  You lose focus on Him, because you are too focused on extending your life here.  It's like a story about a man (I am sure there is a movie somewhere) who finds out he has cancer, and will die in one year.  So, he has two options.  He could spend that time with his family growing closer to them, and with Church, growing closer to God.  Alternatively, he could spend all of that time trying to discover a cure for his cancer and doing anything possible to fight it, at the cost of his relationship with his family.  He fails, and then dies realizing how he wasted what time he had, on a search for more time.   That, to me, is why Transhumanism is demonic.
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Offline John of the North

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2011, 05:00:04 PM »
Wanted to open up a thread and discuss this issue because I feel it will be more prevelant in a few decades time.

How close do you think we will be until all suffering becomes eliminated from the human race? Or changing the genetic code to live longer?

I'm sure our world would turn into a Wall-E and Brave New World scenario. I do believe it is the worst and most dangerous idea ever poised by humans right next to artifical intelligence that could create their own emotions/thoughts/feelings ala Terminator. I wonder how much of this cultural movement is really science though.

Transhumanism may be a demonic ideology, but I'm reasonably confident it will be headed off by resource scarcity.

Could you possibly expand on this?

The demonic connection?? Or the resource scarcity??
“Find the door of your heart, and you will discover it is the door to the kingdom of God.” - St. John Chrysostom

Offline Shiny

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2011, 06:18:03 PM »
Wanted to open up a thread and discuss this issue because I feel it will be more prevelant in a few decades time.

How close do you think we will be until all suffering becomes eliminated from the human race? Or changing the genetic code to live longer?

I'm sure our world would turn into a Wall-E and Brave New World scenario. I do believe it is the worst and most dangerous idea ever poised by humans right next to artifical intelligence that could create their own emotions/thoughts/feelings ala Terminator. I wonder how much of this cultural movement is really science though.

Transhumanism may be a demonic ideology, but I'm reasonably confident it will be headed off by resource scarcity.

Could you possibly expand on this?

The demonic connection?? Or the resource scarcity??
The resource scarcity?
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Offline biro

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2011, 07:27:14 PM »
On a side note, did anybody read "Robocalypse" yet? It's a novel, and it deals with a similar topic. I was wondering if it was any good.  :)
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Offline John of the North

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2011, 01:40:28 AM »
Wanted to open up a thread and discuss this issue because I feel it will be more prevelant in a few decades time.

How close do you think we will be until all suffering becomes eliminated from the human race? Or changing the genetic code to live longer?

I'm sure our world would turn into a Wall-E and Brave New World scenario. I do believe it is the worst and most dangerous idea ever poised by humans right next to artifical intelligence that could create their own emotions/thoughts/feelings ala Terminator. I wonder how much of this cultural movement is really science though.

Transhumanism may be a demonic ideology, but I'm reasonably confident it will be headed off by resource scarcity.

Could you possibly expand on this?

The demonic connection?? Or the resource scarcity??
The resource scarcity?

Technological advancement, as predicted by Transhumanists in extreme, is only possible using an energy dense, cheap, and plentiful fuel source. The Earth is pretty much a closed system. Even if it is possible to rapidly advance technology to such a degree, it comes down to resources. The only thing technology can do to resource consumption is improve efficiency. But improvements to efficiency do not decrease consumption, they only increase it. This is because the same input will produce more output.

Or put differently: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHr8OzaloLM
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2011, 02:20:41 AM »
Why ain't GiC here defending his faith?

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2011, 11:04:25 AM »
Quote
Transhumanist thinking doesn't take God into account much, true. Still, I find most of the "it's unnatural!" arguments against transhumanism to apply to conventional medicine, yet no one bats an eye at researchers searching for diets, medication and pacemakers that can extend life further.  Is extending life by 20 or 30 years OK, but 300 years is automatically a demonic pursuit? Where do we draw the line?

To me, any time you remove God and replace Him with human glorification it is demonic.

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Offline CRCulver

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2011, 11:46:13 AM »
To me, any time you remove God and replace Him with human glorification it is demonic.

Do you have anything constructive to contribute or do you just want to raise strawmen?

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2011, 11:54:35 AM »
Quote
Do you have anything constructive to contribute or do you just want to raise strawmen?

Last time I checked, it was ok to provide my opinion, which if you paid attention, the words, "To me" usually signify an opinion, which I gave. If that makes me a strawman, as you so put it, fine.

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2011, 12:01:33 PM »
Last time I checked, it was ok to provide my opinion, which if you paid attention, the words, "To me" usually signify an opinion, which I gave. If that makes me a strawman, as you so put it, fine.

You quoted my post, and then said something that had no bearing on what I said.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2011, 01:18:00 PM »
Quote
automatically a demonic pursuit

I gave my opinion based on the above. I just wanted to quote everything so it didnt look like I took it out of context.

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Offline wolf

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2011, 12:35:31 PM »
My brother is big into transhumanism, and it's quite scary. Not least because it is so obviously rooted in a desire for the same things that Christianity deals with, i.e fear of death and the hope for something better. Considering that we barely know anything about genetic code, or so I'm told, I think we are a long way off eliminating suffering completely.
I do think that it is something that we should oppose though. It seeks to "save" humans by material progress, not to mention aligning itself with unethical practices such as eugenics, euthanasia and abortion. I also think the economic and political impact of the technology that the transhumanists are talking about is something to be feared.

Regarding where to draw the line, I am personally OK with longevity from an ethical standpoint on its own, as it is no different to modern medicine. However, I think we need to take in the reasons why people want their lives extended, as well as the political impact before deciding to support such a technology. For me, that is the more pressing reason not to support it, as well as the mental state and motivations of those who want to live indefinitely. Importing our mind into a computer is going to far IMO.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 12:36:26 PM by wolf »

Offline CBGardner

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2011, 12:43:01 PM »
Why ain't GiC here defending his faith?

I was thinking I'd see some posts from him/her as well. He's/She's always in on the techno/science babble.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2011, 01:34:44 PM »
Hey, didn't you already start a topic about this before?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,32067.0.html

Transhumanism is a form of atheist messianism, like Marxism, but even less interesting. 
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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2014, 11:59:50 AM »
Strange. Never thought I'd see Mormons and Transhumanists overlap:

Quote
What is the Mormon Transhumanist Association?

The Mormon Transhumanist Association is an international nonprofit organization that promotes radical flourishing in compassion and creation through technology and religion, as outlined in the Transhumanist Declaration and the Mormon Transhumanist Affirmation....

What is the relation between Mormonism and Transhumanism?

Increasingly, persons are recognizing parallels and complements between Mormon and Transhumanist views. On the one hand, Mormonism is a religion of the Judeo-Christian tradition that advocates immersive discipleship of Jesus Christ that leads to creative and compassionate works. On the other hand, Transhumanism is a mostly secular ideology that advocates ethical use of technology to expand human abilities. However, Mormonism and Transhumanism advocate remarkably similar views of human nature and potential: material beings organized according to law, rapidly advancing knowledge and power, imminent fundamental changes to anatomy and environment, and eventual transcendence of present limitations....
« Last Edit: July 12, 2014, 12:00:16 PM by Jetavan »
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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2018, 10:52:35 PM »
Should we live to be 500? Christians and secularists come together over transhumanism

Quote
To Christian transhumanists, transhumanism means working with God to accomplish God’s work in the world through the ethical use of that science and technology.

“It’s a conversation that calls us, that challenges us to develop a deeper theology of technology,” said Micah Redding, director of the four-year-old Christian Transhumanist Association.
....
The church’s interest in transhumanism is growing, according to Redding, who pointed to recent conferences on related topics in London and Vatican City. In turn, secular transhumanists have developed an interest in religion, including creating a religion of artificial intelligence.

But there’s also pushback from both sides.

And that comes, Redding said, from secular transhumanists who don’t see him as a “viable member of their community” as well as from Christians who believe “because of our association with transhumanism we are ushering in the Antichrist.”
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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2018, 12:40:18 AM »
Is some kind of Christian Transhumanism possible? I tend to go back and forth on the question. Some of the (preliminary, tentative, and probably muddled) thoughts that I have:

Christianity is predicated on the idea that God works through our fallen minds and bodies (using not only language and thought, but using the matter of Eucharist, icon, baptism, etc. as well). His Spirit works through our efforts to achieve more than the sum of the parts that we provide (I always think of the miracle of the loaves and fish at this point, the Apostles put their effort in but God achieved the increase).

Seems like Transhumanism might be able to work on the same principles. If we could achieve a sort of "theologized engineering" (maybe with prayer and blessings before and after and with technicians who fundamentally see themselves as serving God and needing His grace to achieve anything and seeing their art as subordinate to and serving theology as the Queen of the Sciences, almost in the sense of trying to make these experiments into a "sacrament of the machine"), could the enhancements and repairs that we come up with then be themselves a form of Christ's redemption, the method that God uses to defeat death and suffering and to usher in the new Heaven and new Earth (with His miraculous power causing them to achieve success that we could never dream of--ie. the Singularity)?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 12:42:43 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline biro

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2018, 12:58:10 AM »
Christ loved the whole cosmos:)
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2018, 08:39:05 AM »
Quote
could the enhancements and repairs that we come up with then be themselves a form of Christ's redemption, the method that God uses to defeat death and suffering and to usher in the new Heaven and new Earth (with His miraculous power causing them to achieve success that we could never dream of--ie. the Singularity)?

Well, giving the capacity of mankind to do evil, I am not holding my breath for a positive and christian form of transhumanism. As I see, transhumanism will be used to monitor and control massive amounts of people, and probably in the future people won't have privacy in their own minds, minds will be conected to social network directly, heartbeats, brainwaves, blood pressure... conected and monitored by ''health apps'', and God knows what else the future has.

I have this idea that transhumanism and similar movements are a modern form of gnosticism, in the end of the day, they are trying to separate mind or intelect from the material organic carbon based world, and download it in a byte world that is programable, predictable and supposedly boundless.

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2018, 09:00:14 AM »
Quote
could the enhancements and repairs that we come up with then be themselves a form of Christ's redemption, the method that God uses to defeat death and suffering and to usher in the new Heaven and new Earth (with His miraculous power causing them to achieve success that we could never dream of--ie. the Singularity)?

Well, giving the capacity of mankind to do evil, I am not holding my breath for a positive and christian form of transhumanism. As I see, transhumanism will be used to monitor and control massive amounts of people, and probably in the future people won't have privacy in their own minds, minds will be conected to social network directly, heartbeats, brainwaves, blood pressure... conected and monitored by ''health apps'', and God knows what else the future has.

I have this idea that transhumanism and similar movements are a modern form of gnosticism, in the end of the day, they are trying to separate mind or intelect from the material organic carbon based world, and download it in a byte world that is programable, predictable and supposedly boundless.

I'm the same way. I think it's inherently evil and ought to be stopped before it gets bad
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2018, 09:22:42 AM »
Is some kind of Christian Transhumanism possible? I tend to go back and forth on the question. Some of the (preliminary, tentative, and probably muddled) thoughts that I have:

Christianity is predicated on the idea that God works through our fallen minds and bodies (using not only language and thought, but using the matter of Eucharist, icon, baptism, etc. as well). His Spirit works through our efforts to achieve more than the sum of the parts that we provide (I always think of the miracle of the loaves and fish at this point, the Apostles put their effort in but God achieved the increase).

Seems like Transhumanism might be able to work on the same principles. If we could achieve a sort of "theologized engineering" (maybe with prayer and blessings before and after and with technicians who fundamentally see themselves as serving God and needing His grace to achieve anything and seeing their art as subordinate to and serving theology as the Queen of the Sciences, almost in the sense of trying to make these experiments into a "sacrament of the machine"), could the enhancements and repairs that we come up with then be themselves a form of Christ's redemption, the method that God uses to defeat death and suffering and to usher in the new Heaven and new Earth (with His miraculous power causing them to achieve success that we could never dream of--ie. the Singularity)?

Nikolai Fyodorov proposed exactly that. My feelings about transhumanism are basically unchanged from what I said in the other transhumanist thread. The immortality and resurrection promised by these technological advances is actually just an extension of corruption. Saint Paul might call it death extension. This isn't to say that all of these technologies are necessarily bad (though some might be) but what is really dangerous is this ideological slant of techno-messianism. The idea is that we can make ourselves "better" humans without any clue what goodness and humanity are. These people supposedly immortalized by technology would be like the gods described in Buddhism- infinitely wealthy, surrounded by endless pleasures, so that they start to imagine themselves to be eternal beings and even the creators of the universe. By the time their garlands start to wilt and their mortality emerges it is too late for them; they have dissipated themselves in pride and self-indulgence and must necessarily descend into torment. 
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

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Offline juliogb

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2018, 10:41:05 AM »
Quote
could the enhancements and repairs that we come up with then be themselves a form of Christ's redemption, the method that God uses to defeat death and suffering and to usher in the new Heaven and new Earth (with His miraculous power causing them to achieve success that we could never dream of--ie. the Singularity)?

Well, giving the capacity of mankind to do evil, I am not holding my breath for a positive and christian form of transhumanism. As I see, transhumanism will be used to monitor and control massive amounts of people, and probably in the future people won't have privacy in their own minds, minds will be conected to social network directly, heartbeats, brainwaves, blood pressure... conected and monitored by ''health apps'', and God knows what else the future has.

I have this idea that transhumanism and similar movements are a modern form of gnosticism, in the end of the day, they are trying to separate mind or intelect from the material organic carbon based world, and download it in a byte world that is programable, predictable and supposedly boundless.

I'm the same way. I think it's inherently evil and ought to be stopped before it gets bad

I am quite skeptical about stoping it, doesnt seem like stopping, at least, in developed western countries this process seems unavoidable, in my opinion, it has schatological implications, not that I am a dispensationalist, but I can't watch all of what is happening in the tech/genetic/quantum world and not imagine deep spiritual implications that are related to the Parousia. This makes me remember of a theory I have, a speculation on my behalf, I didnt invented it, but I agree with it, that the Deluge in Noah's time was about the destruction of a civilization that was technologically super advanced but spiritually, biologically and morally corrupt, related to the events and the fallen angels of the book of Enoch.



Offline Iconodule

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2018, 10:45:39 AM »
I don't think anyone can consciously stop it, but sooner or later our society will likely implode and this tower of Babel will topple like all the other ones.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2018, 11:03:50 AM »
Is some kind of Christian Transhumanism possible? I tend to go back and forth on the question. Some of the (preliminary, tentative, and probably muddled) thoughts that I have:

Christianity is predicated on the idea that God works through our fallen minds and bodies (using not only language and thought, but using the matter of Eucharist, icon, baptism, etc. as well). His Spirit works through our efforts to achieve more than the sum of the parts that we provide (I always think of the miracle of the loaves and fish at this point, the Apostles put their effort in but God achieved the increase).

Seems like Transhumanism might be able to work on the same principles. If we could achieve a sort of "theologized engineering" (maybe with prayer and blessings before and after and with technicians who fundamentally see themselves as serving God and needing His grace to achieve anything and seeing their art as subordinate to and serving theology as the Queen of the Sciences, almost in the sense of trying to make these experiments into a "sacrament of the machine"), could the enhancements and repairs that we come up with then be themselves a form of Christ's redemption, the method that God uses to defeat death and suffering and to usher in the new Heaven and new Earth (with His miraculous power causing them to achieve success that we could never dream of--ie. the Singularity)?

Nikolai Fyodorov proposed exactly that. My feelings about transhumanism are basically unchanged from what I said in the other transhumanist thread. The immortality and resurrection promised by these technological advances is actually just an extension of corruption. Saint Paul might call it death extension. This isn't to say that all of these technologies are necessarily bad (though some might be) but what is really dangerous is this ideological slant of techno-messianism. The idea is that we can make ourselves "better" humans without any clue what goodness and humanity are. These people supposedly immortalized by technology would be like the gods described in Buddhism- infinitely wealthy, surrounded by endless pleasures, so that they start to imagine themselves to be eternal beings and even the creators of the universe. By the time their garlands start to wilt and their mortality emerges it is too late for them; they have dissipated themselves in pride and self-indulgence and must necessarily descend into torment.

Never actually read Fyodorov. I had heard about him, though.

I completely agree that the way guys like Kurtzweil are going about this are completely wrong and heading for a fall, many of the reasons why stemming from the atheism and pride implicit in the way that they're doing it. I'm just trying to theorize about ways in which it might properly be done.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 11:04:17 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline juliogb

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2018, 12:08:49 PM »
I wonder how the church will deal in the future with the massive dilemmas ahead, boosted by the transhumanist changes, stuff like males with fake woumbs and bearing children, clones, artificial intelligences, human/non human hybrids, cyborgs and all sorts of bizarre things we even imagine yet. That's why it is so important to stick with the natural and God given patterns of marriage and family.

Romans 1 :24-26 comes to my mind.

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2018, 01:24:17 PM »
Would it be forced?  That's my question.  Or just end up ubiquitous to the point where you don't get another choice?  Like how all cars being replaced by self-driving cars.

I wonder how the church will deal in the future with the massive dilemmas ahead, boosted by the transhumanist changes, stuff like males with fake woumbs and bearing children, clones, artificial intelligences, human/non human hybrids, cyborgs and all sorts of bizarre things we even imagine yet. That's why it is so important to stick with the natural and God given patterns of marriage and family.

Romans 1 :24-26 comes to my mind.
:o :o  I'm scandalized.  And perplexed in a most unwelcome way...
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2018, 02:03:16 PM »
Would it be forced?  That's my question.  Or just end up ubiquitous to the point where you don't get another choice?  Like how all cars being replaced by self-driving cars.

I would hope it would be completely voluntary. Like you say it might some day end up unavoidable in practice, though.

I wonder how the church will deal in the future with the massive dilemmas ahead, boosted by the transhumanist changes, stuff like males with fake woumbs and bearing children, clones, artificial intelligences, human/non human hybrids, cyborgs and all sorts of bizarre things we even imagine yet. That's why it is so important to stick with the natural and God given patterns of marriage and family.

Romans 1 :24-26 comes to my mind.
:o :o  I'm scandalized.  And perplexed in a most unwelcome way...

Fwiw, that remains only theoretical.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Ashman618

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2018, 08:58:52 PM »
i often though that even if it was voluntary that it would be hard to compete for jobs if you don’t have any “upgrades” almost forcing a person to incorporate tech into their body to make a living. even simple tasks like stocking groceries on shelves would be taken by people with robotic arms that are far more efficient.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Transhumanism
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2018, 10:06:12 PM »
i often though that even if it was voluntary that it would be hard to compete for jobs if you don’t have any “upgrades” almost forcing a person to incorporate tech into their body to make a living. even simple tasks like stocking groceries on shelves would be taken by people with robotic arms that are far more efficient.

That's Schumpeter's Gale for ya, though. Not a lot of jobs for horse and buggy drivers since the invention of the automobile. It's not really anybody's fault, it just happens.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.