Author Topic: Something about Holding Hands  (Read 1470 times)

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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2017, 03:03:50 AM »
Do you think this thread is leading anywhere?

Probably not, sadly.  I thought Youssef might have a stronger Catholic background.  Unfortunately, he seems to even deny basic Catholic dogma himself, and even hold a grudge towards your church.

The real problem with holding hands is that my neighbor might have caught a cold and is passing it on to me 😉. Seriously: What is liturgy? What is it's purpose? How does holding hands serve this purpose?

This is a part of which I have not studied in depth.  I was recommended Fr. Alexander Schmemann's works.

But what I do understand, liturgy means a work of the people or ministry of the people.  It is a connecting of the people of God with God Himself, and it is also a timeless participation in all the salvific events/works of Christ, His birth, His passion, His crucifixion, His resurrection from the dead, His ascension into the heaven, His sitting at the right hand of the Father, and His second coming (as if it already happened, or more accurately, as if we are participating in it).

The liturgy always culminates and centers in the partaking of His humanity that we may be raised to the dignity of His divinity.  The liturgy does not end when the presbyter says "go in peace", but expects you to continue your liturgical work and sacramental life throughout your daily life.

The liturgy also contains icons, not just the ones painted on walls, but the roles that every participant who is necessary in the liturgy.  We are all icons of holiness, icons of virtue, icons of God, and within God we have diversity of works and blessings of which we become icons of the real presence of these blessings.

The goal of liturgy is that we transcend the world into the Kingdom of God Himself, that all of us who participate in Christ are placed as co-Kings with Christ of the Kingdom, and we after the presbyter says "Go in peace", we also become "co-Redeemers" with Christ in this world, that we may bring more saints into the Kingdom.

Without the liturgy, there is no Christianity. And if we distort the liturgy, we distort the icons of our real and true participation in the Kingdom.

^This.
Of course, this is not comprehensive, a lot more could be said.
Foremost, the aspect of sacrifice.
@Youssef: You keep mentioning the fact that Christians killed each other (and btw continue to do so!) as a proof that there is no true church.
Of course, murder is potentially a mortal sin, cutting off the murderer from HIS grace immediately, potentially leading to eternal damnation.
However, could you explain exactly why it would prove that a (or better the) true church does not exist?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 03:08:02 AM by Lepanto »

Offline youssef

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2017, 03:29:19 AM »
Do you think this thread is leading anywhere?

Probably not, sadly.  I thought Youssef might have a stronger Catholic background.  Unfortunately, he seems to even deny basic Catholic dogma himself, and even hold a grudge towards your church.

The real problem with holding hands is that my neighbor might have caught a cold and is passing it on to me 😉. Seriously: What is liturgy? What is it's purpose? How does holding hands serve this purpose?

This is a part of which I have not studied in depth.  I was recommended Fr. Alexander Schmemann's works.

But what I do understand, liturgy means a work of the people or ministry of the people.  It is a connecting of the people of God with God Himself, and it is also a timeless participation in all the salvific events/works of Christ, His birth, His passion, His crucifixion, His resurrection from the dead, His ascension into the heaven, His sitting at the right hand of the Father, and His second coming (as if it already happened, or more accurately, as if we are participating in it).

The liturgy always culminates and centers in the partaking of His humanity that we may be raised to the dignity of His divinity.  The liturgy does not end when the presbyter says "go in peace", but expects you to continue your liturgical work and sacramental life throughout your daily life.

The liturgy also contains icons, not just the ones painted on walls, but the roles that every participant who is necessary in the liturgy.  We are all icons of holiness, icons of virtue, icons of God, and within God we have diversity of works and blessings of which we become icons of the real presence of these blessings.

The goal of liturgy is that we transcend the world into the Kingdom of God Himself, that all of us who participate in Christ are placed as co-Kings with Christ of the Kingdom, and we after the presbyter says "Go in peace", we also become "co-Redeemers" with Christ in this world, that we may bring more saints into the Kingdom.

Without the liturgy, there is no Christianity. And if we distort the liturgy, we distort the icons of our real and true participation in the Kingdom.

^This.
Of course, this is not comprehensive, a lot more could be said.
Foremost, the aspect of sacrifice.
@Youssef: You keep mentioning the fact that Christians killed each other (and btw continue to do so!) as a proof that there is no true church.
Of course, murder is potentially a mortal sin, cutting off the murderer from HIS grace immediately, potentially leading to eternal damnation.
However, could you explain exactly why it would prove that a (or better the) true church does not exist?

When you accept a work of men you will have the same destiny in the judgment day(an islamic quotes).
You this church you don't just accept this work of men but you consider some of this people as saint and church father. so you will have the same destiny as them. ;D Don't take it in an extreme way i am talking about the organisation.
In fourth century you killed pagan and other heretics not always you were killing each other. i am pro ecumenism but modern ecumenism contain so much hypocrisy

What do you think about the neocathemunal mass accepted by the catholic church
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 03:30:03 AM by youssef »

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2017, 04:32:01 AM »
You this church you don't just accept this work of men but you consider some of this people as saint and church father. so you will have the same destiny as them.

I would be absolutely delighted to have the same destiny as a saint or church father!   :D
Regarding the neocatechumenal way:
I think one should keep to 1 Thess 5, 19-22 in those things. It may be that there are some (or a lot of) good things to be found.
However, on the other hand, I am afraid that outgrowth is pervasive. But I cannot really tell as I have never been to such a mass personally,
being more what they call a "trad" Catholic.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 04:32:49 AM by Lepanto »

Offline youssef

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2017, 05:11:47 AM »
You this church you don't just accept this work of men but you consider some of this people as saint and church father. so you will have the same destiny as them.

I would be absolutely delighted to have the same destiny as a saint or church father!   :D
Regarding the neocatechumenal way:
I think one should keep to 1 Thess 5, 19-22 in those things. It may be that there are some (or a lot of) good things to be found.
However, on the other hand, I am afraid that outgrowth is pervasive. But I cannot really tell as I have never been to such a mass personally,
being more what they call a "trad" Catholic.

And if some saint and church father was killer.

Me too i never go to the mass but you can use youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnOqODhDXGc
So  the vatican accept this, holding hand during lord prayer has no comparison to that
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 05:19:18 AM by youssef »

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #49 on: May 16, 2017, 08:53:09 AM »
Mina do you accept what Father matta elmeskin say about the church in fourth century. Same view but I say I cannot still consider it as the church of the Christ. Really who was the real church when you were killing each other in 5th century. I don't get how the Holly spirit was working with you.
No problem to read but I am reading a book about ibn arabi when I finnish it I read your book.

Please use proper clerical titles according to the rules of the forum.  --Mina

I cringe when people tend to use a blanket reference of Abouna Matta al Maskeen pretending to "agree" with him.  So I caution you, if you're going to "quote" Abouna Matta, please give me the reference and the exact quote.

So, what did Abouna Matta say about the fourth century?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline youssef

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #50 on: May 16, 2017, 09:10:47 AM »
Mina do you accept what Father matta elmeskin say about the church in fourth century. Same view but I say I cannot still consider it as the church of the Christ. Really who was the real church when you were killing each other in 5th century. I don't get how the Holly spirit was working with you.
No problem to read but I am reading a book about ibn arabi when I finnish it I read your book.

Please use proper clerical titles according to the rules of the forum.  --Mina

I cringe when people tend to use a blanket reference of Abouna Matta al Maskeen pretending to "agree" with him.  So I caution you, if you're going to "quote" Abouna Matta, please give me the reference and the exact quote.

So, what did Abouna Matta say about the fourth century?

إما بداءة عثرات الكنيسة فكان أيام احتمائها في قسطنطين الملك في القرن الرابع ليتولى حماية الإيمان بالسيف ، كحكم إسرائيل الأول بدل المحبة والصلاة وعهد المسيح. وجاء بعده الملك تيئودوسيوس ليأمر بهدم معابد الوثنين كأيام ملوك إسرائيل في القديم بدل البشارة المفرحة بالمسيح والإقناع بكلمة الإنجيل.

كتاب الكنيسة والدولة صفحة ٢٩

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #51 on: May 16, 2017, 09:50:41 AM »
Youssef, as per the rules of the forum, please translate the text.

Thank you.

Mina
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline youssef

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #52 on: May 16, 2017, 01:15:22 PM »
The first misstep of the church was when she take protection from Constantine in 4th century to protect faith by sword, like first israel rules instead of love and praying and covenant of christ, then come the king theodosius to destruct the pagan temple like king of israel instead of the pleasant annunciation of Christ and the Bible.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #53 on: May 16, 2017, 01:26:54 PM »
The first misstep of the church was when she take protection from Constantine in 4th century to protect faith by sword, like first israel rules instead of love and praying and covenant of christ, then come the king theodosius to destruct the pagan temple like king of israel instead of the pleasant annunciation of Christ and the Bible.

This isn't Christian thinking at all. We don't upbraid our spiritual grandfathers and accuse them of evil, or accuse them of not knowing Christ and his plan. Neither do we, backhandedly, accuse Christ of having allowed his "true" plan to have been lost. All this is ingratitude and slander, in addition to being an infirm foundation for any true Christianity. Please reconsider your thinking and your sources. Many sources of "truth" are slick liars, as America and England have long histories of conflating religion with salesmanship and opportunism. You may feel you gain a more glamorous footing in the world, by parroting these slick men and women preachers, but what doth it profit a man to gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #54 on: May 16, 2017, 01:28:22 PM »
(It's also not factual or rational thinking, but I wanted to concentrate on the un-Christianity of it since you seem still minded to be a Christian.)
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #55 on: May 16, 2017, 02:42:31 PM »
Thank you!

I also wanted you to translate the source as well, but I know you got the quote from Abouna Matta's "Church and State".  I have the book in English and I'll double check, but with that said, I don't remember Abouna Matta ever denying the one true Church in that era.  He only concentrates his criticism on a few people (especially the emperors who he believed meddled too much into church affairs), but at the same time praises the Church's theological and spiritual tradition at that time!  In other words, if you're going to quote Abouna Matta, read his book on St. Athanasius, his commentary on the gospel of Mark, his spiritual books "Communion of Love" and "Orthodox Prayer Life".

Reading these works, you see a man who respects Church authority, liturgy, and a theology that would force you to think "you can't be anything other than Orthodox".  I can even quote you a passage where he does specifically spell out that Orthodoxy is the only true theology.

So I don't find anything from Abouna Matta agreeing with your assertion that he doesn't believe in the one true Church.  Just because there are some individuals who are not virtuous does not mean the Church is devoid of the fullness of truth.  Even you admit no one is perfect.  Peter wasn't perfect, and Jesus chose Judas who betrayed Him, and yet he made Peter into a rock!  And yet, Jesus is still the truth and established for us the Church as the pillar and foundation of all truth, not the individual as you believe.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 02:44:38 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline youssef

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #56 on: May 16, 2017, 04:01:50 PM »
I downloaded the book when you ask me for what he really say. In the book he talk more about how Constantine use Christianity and changing the cross from a symbol of peace to a symbol of war.
Now I don't want to talk about every person and what every person did sure you have your version about Athanasius or Cyril, but orthodoxy in fourth century was confirmed by sword. And for me it is sufficient to critics the church. I know I don't have the full knowledge but some information are clear. We shouldn't read history in a way to please our way of thinking.
In 5th century happening other stuff because you didn't understand each other. But who was the true church then.

Also I have other reason to critics all the church in history.
 
I think we are far away from the subject, did you see the YouTube video what do you think about what they are doing.

Offline Luke

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #57 on: May 16, 2017, 05:15:25 PM »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #58 on: May 16, 2017, 06:34:56 PM »
I downloaded the book when you ask me for what he really say. In the book he talk more about how Constantine use Christianity and changing the cross from a symbol of peace to a symbol of war.
Now I don't want to talk about every person and what every person did sure you have your version about Athanasius or Cyril, but orthodoxy in fourth century was confirmed by sword. And for me it is sufficient to critics the church. I know I don't have the full knowledge but some information are clear. We shouldn't read history in a way to please our way of thinking.
In 5th century happening other stuff because you didn't understand each other. But who was the true church then.

Also I have other reason to critics all the church in history.
 
I think we are far away from the subject, did you see the YouTube video what do you think about what they are doing.

That version of history is shallow and polemical, and if you are suspicious that traditional Christians a might "read history in a way that pleases them," then I'm surprised you accept the reformed version of history so quickly.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #59 on: May 16, 2017, 06:39:57 PM »
And frankly it's such a ridiculous picture you paint -- that we should reject early Christianity, our  heads hanging in shame, because bishops of the time didn't exert themselves to  keep Christianity illegal.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #60 on: May 16, 2017, 10:50:37 PM »
I downloaded the book when you ask me for what he really say. In the book he talk more about how Constantine use Christianity and changing the cross from a symbol of peace to a symbol of war.
Now I don't want to talk about every person and what every person did sure you have your version about Athanasius or Cyril, but orthodoxy in fourth century was confirmed by sword. And for me it is sufficient to critics the church. I know I don't have the full knowledge but some information are clear. We shouldn't read history in a way to please our way of thinking.
In 5th century happening other stuff because you didn't understand each other. But who was the true church then.

Also I have other reason to critics all the church in history.
 
I think we are far away from the subject, did you see the YouTube video what do you think about what they are doing.

Orthodoxy was also persecuted even under "Christian" emperors.  If you read about the struggles of St. Athanasius, you would realize the history is much more complex.  A close friend of Abouna Matta al Maskeen, Dr. George Bebawy even mentioned in a meeting I was in how the emperor Constantine is blamed more than necessary, and the man is scapegoated in all the wrong ways for the wrong reasons.  There is a book out now called "Defending Constantine", that refutes some of the historical inaccuracies of this moment.

But let's grant your reading of this.  That's still not a good enough reason to reject the One True Church.  In fact, what it shows is that people within the One True Church were able to recognize some problems and condemn them within.  St. Ambrose of Milan was most famous for this, condemning the abuses of emperors and advocating for the freedom of heretics in society.  But guess what, they're still heretics.

Furthermore, what's even more admirable is that a lot of those in the One True Church also do not desire temporal power as we had in the ancient Church.  That should not be ignored, but should be lauded.

And to be quite honest, I don't think we veered that much off.  We really have nothing more to discuss.  The main reason why you disagree with me on the hands holding subject is PRECISELY because you reject any idea of the one true Church based on a skewed and emotional argument.  Why are you still Catholic then?  Why not go and pray in a non-denominational Church? 

But if you're going to quote Abouna Matta al Maskeen, why not just join the Church he thought was the One True Church, the Oriental Orthodox?  If you pick and choose your arguments, you only show how weak your arguments are.

But you asked me of what I think of the youtube video, here's what I think:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XTHFbM4ZFM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIjys5NuPwY

« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 10:56:04 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #61 on: May 16, 2017, 11:04:50 PM »
The lack of integrity with respect to the catholicity and unity of the Church, until now, among the Churches of the world does demand of us—not reconsidering our theology, for our theology is true and faithful—to reconsider ourselves in view of our correct theology so that we might correct our vision of God the only Father of all humankind and correct our view of Christ as the only Savior and the only Redeemer of all who call on His name, through whom is indiscriminately adopted the whole of humanity by God, thus correcting our love toward man—every person—as being inevitably a brother to us, even if he stood against us in hostility and set forth for us snares of death. (Abouna Matta al Maskeen, "Communion of Love," p. 221)

Notice how he said here "every person".  That includes "non-Christians".  It's a matter of how to treat heretics, not adopt them as if they're part of the One True Church.  This actually sums up the way in which you should read Abouna Matta's writings, even those controversial ones you seem to buttress yourself on.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 11:09:09 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Eper04

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #62 on: May 17, 2017, 06:01:52 AM »
You this church you don't just accept this work of men but you consider some of this people as saint and church father. so you will have the same destiny as them.

I would be absolutely delighted to have the same destiny as a saint or church father!   :D
Regarding the neocatechumenal way:
I think one should keep to 1 Thess 5, 19-22 in those things. It may be that there are some (or a lot of) good things to be found.
However, on the other hand, I am afraid that outgrowth is pervasive. But I cannot really tell as I have never been to such a mass personally,
being more what they call a "trad" Catholic.

And if some saint and church father was killer.

Me too i never go to the mass but you can use youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnOqODhDXGc
So  the vatican accept this, holding hand during lord prayer has no comparison to that

No officially the Vatican has not accepted it. We are against modernism for obvious reasons officially. Now that certain parishes do it. Unfortunately true but officially and traditionally the church does not accept it.

Here is a vatican document against modernism ( it does not say anything about hand holding but it does say about the importance of keeping the traditional Christian form of worship)

http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-x/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_19070908_pascendi-dominici-gregis.html

So please do not try to discredit the church. I highly reccomend to read and understand your faith before you comment on it. Also to know the official church position which is also throught the teachings of the cathechism etc.
The sad thing is that many of us not the majority but many of us we make bold statements and then regretted it later in life because we do not study the faith. As you have said if you do not really go to church then how do you know our beliefs? If you do not read the cathechisms nor tried to practice our faith how do you know the essential teachings?

Remember the universal church (orhodoxy and catholicism) we welcome every people from every culture of the world with wide open arms. The ones who separated from the church and started their own practices and separated from the beliefs are the protestants all because they believed in personal intepretation.
While we know that the Holy Scripture cannot be personally interpreted by us. It only can be revealed to the priest  and we base that also on  on the 1 Corinthians CH 2. There is more in the bible.

I mean you can try to say we should hold hands etc. All I am saying it is not part of our tradition.
I am western too. I go to the Traditional Latin mass and I am also a proud Roman catholic too.
I do remember before finding tradition (no I am not from the Society of Saint Pius X)  people holding their hands and praying the our father. However I met priests that even thought people were doing that, the Priests as well as some capuchin friar and a certain Franciscan friars at the time never gave their hands to anyone, same for other Catholic churches I have encountered.
When you go to a legionaries of Christ also the same thing when I went to Cheshire, CT in a seminary, to see if I had a religious calling, which I foujd out I did not have a calling, they never held hands nor raised it. Individually we put our palm facing the other and started to pray the our father.
In the traditional Latin Mass no one raises their hands nor even join hands with other people.
All people also put their hands individually toghether as well just like in the traditional way and in the seminary.

Protestants might change according to their commodities but we do not. Nor ever will.

There is a place and time for everything.

This is my last comment on the subject. As well. I believe Fr. Minasolisman explained it very clearly. And you should not be disrespectful to any, any priest or religious in fact you should respect your elders. But especially any priest. One thing is to have questions another is to challenge the truth and to question the truth.

Remember they are the representatives of Christ here on earth.
One thing is to disagree on somethings especially if they go contrary to God's will and preceptsprecepts.
However Fr. Minasolisman has not said anything against the faith quite the contrary he is trying to help you as best as he can because his best interest is your soul.
The rest is up to you but I believe Fr explained it better.
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Thank you God bless you all.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #63 on: May 17, 2017, 10:28:24 AM »
It only can be revealed to the priest ...

I think you yourself might "study your faith" some more, as this does not sound at all accurate.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #64 on: May 17, 2017, 10:52:33 AM »
The one good thing I can see with holding hands is that it would provide an effortless way to establish "first contact" with the devout and attractive girl you could never quite muster the courage to approach. I even guess that this could be  at the bottom of things, now that I think about it  8)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 10:53:52 AM by Lepanto »

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #65 on: May 17, 2017, 10:57:13 AM »
I'm not a "Fr.".  You can just call me Mina.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Offline Eper04

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #66 on: May 17, 2017, 11:03:11 AM »
I'm not a "Fr.".  You can just call me Mina.

sorry. Thank you Mina
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Thank you God bless you all.

Offline youssef

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #67 on: May 17, 2017, 11:12:13 AM »
First of all i don't go to any church to pray now. Every one take care of his own soul, do you think that i really care if i go to hell because of my idea.  Do you think that dead bones can be the rock just dead bones cannot change. When people get out don't just think that they are just the problem.

And about the neocatecumenal way they was approved on 2010 so they are part of the catholic church. I know traditional catholic don't like them but at least they are alive. So the way they do the mass is accepted by the catholic church. Because that i use a video of them .

Offline youssef

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #68 on: May 17, 2017, 11:16:25 AM »
I'm not a "Fr.".  You can just call me Mina.

Mina who unify the two countries

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #69 on: May 17, 2017, 11:19:00 AM »
I'm not a "Fr.".  You can just call me Mina.

Mina who unify the two countries

 :)

First of all i don't go to any church to pray now. Every one take care of his own soul, do you think that i really care if i go to hell because of my idea.  Do you think that dead bones can be the rock just dead bones cannot change. When people get out don't just think that they are just the problem.

And about the neocatecumenal way they was approved on 2010 so they are part of the catholic church. I know traditional catholic don't like them but at least they are alive. So the way they do the mass is accepted by the catholic church. Because that i use a video of them .

Go back to Church Youssef.  Jesus said "where 2 or 3 are gathered? I AM in their midst."  It's a beautiful thing to be among the assembly and pray and be in the midst where Christ is present.

And continue to read and study.

God bless!
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Eper04

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #70 on: May 17, 2017, 11:24:16 AM »
It only can be revealed to the priest ...

I think you yourself might "study your faith" some more, as this does not sound at all accurate.

I based as mentioned earlier due to in Holy Scripture 1 Corinthians Ch 2 says:

Quote
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not in loftiness of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of Christ. For I judged not myself to know anything among you, but Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not in the persuasive words of human wisdom, but in shewing of the Spirit and power; That your faith might not stand on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

Howbeit we speak wisdom among the perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, neither of the princes of this world that come to nought;  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, a wisdom which is hidden, which God ordained before the world, unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew; for if they had known it, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him. But to us God hath revealed them, by this Spirit. For the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

 For what man knoweth the things of a man, but the spirit of a man that is in him? So the things also that are of God no man knoweth, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of this world, but the Spirit that is of God; that we may know the things that are given us from God. Which things also we speak, not in the learned words of human wisdom; but in the doctrine of the Spirit, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the sensual man perceiveth not these things that are of the Spirit of God; for it is foolishness to him, and he cannot understand, because it is spiritually examined. But the spiritual man judgeth all things; and he himself is judged of no man.
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that we may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

First Epistle of Saint Paul to the Corinthians chapter 2.

Of course spiritual people understand it.
I am still learning my faith since it is a life commitment.

What was wrong about my statement? "It only can be revealed to the priest." of course I am not saying only priest also bishops (which you call elders) and members of the hirarchy of the church to them the Holy Scripture is revealed and they are to help us understand it. and of course the religious state(such as nuns and religious fraternities/congregations(monks) also are revealed) please instruct me, I would like to know. Waht was wrong with the statement.
Thank you for your support. I no longer will use my account nor post it.
The main reason why I created my profile was to write and clarify that Catholics believe in the Christological view aligned with the 7 holy councils.
From today I will no longer log back in.
Thank you God bless you all.

Offline youssef

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #71 on: May 19, 2017, 04:26:08 PM »
I asked a priest and choose it randomly so I don't know his way of thinking.(a Catholic priest)
I asking him if holding hands during lord prayer is a liturgy abuse or we can do it normally?
He said that it is not a liturgy abuse and that the role of liturgy is to learn us how to love each other so everyone can do it the way he want and there is no better way. I said to him that Protestant do it because they don't believe in eucaryst he told me we can still believe in eucaryst and hold hand.
Next time I will chose an Orthodox priest if I am in Lebanon I choose metropolitan Georges Khodr because I think he is one of the best Christian existed today, and some fanatic Orthodox think he is a heretics.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #72 on: May 19, 2017, 04:31:25 PM »
I asked a priest and choose it randomly so I don't know his way of thinking.(a Catholic priest)
I asking him if holding hands during lord prayer is a liturgy abuse or we can do it normally?
He said that it is not a liturgy abuse and that the role of liturgy is to learn us how to love each other so everyone can do it the way he want and there is no better way. I said to him that Protestant do it because they don't believe in eucaryst he told me we can still believe in eucaryst and hold hand.
Next time I will chose an Orthodox priest if I am in Lebanon I choose metropolitan Georges Khodr because I think he is one of the best Christian existed today, and some fanatic Orthodox think he is a heretics.

I value Metropolitan George Khodr's opinions actually.  I look forward to hearing what he says.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline youssef

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #73 on: May 19, 2017, 05:28:34 PM »
I asked a priest and choose it randomly so I don't know his way of thinking.(a Catholic priest)
I asking him if holding hands during lord prayer is a liturgy abuse or we can do it normally?
He said that it is not a liturgy abuse and that the role of liturgy is to learn us how to love each other so everyone can do it the way he want and there is no better way. I said to him that Protestant do it because they don't believe in eucaryst he told me we can still believe in eucaryst and hold hand.
Next time I will chose an Orthodox priest if I am in Lebanon I choose metropolitan Georges Khodr because I think he is one of the best Christian existed today, and some fanatic Orthodox think he is a heretics.

I value Metropolitan George Khodr's opinions actually.  I look forward to hearing what he say.

I know some Orthodox think that not just Metropolitan Georges Khodr is a heretics but all the antochian Orthodox Church.

Metropolian Gorge Khodr did make a troparian for labor day in 1 may.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 05:36:16 PM by youssef »

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #74 on: May 19, 2017, 05:44:40 PM »
Next time I will chose an Orthodox priest if I am in Lebanon I choose metropolitan Georges Khodr because I think he is one of the best Christian existed today

I value Metropolitan George Khodr's opinions actually.  I look forward to hearing what he say.
Metropolian Gorge Khodr did make a troparian for labor day in 1 may.
Thank you for more good information showing that Metropolitan Gorge Khodr is very good metropolitan, making prayers for working people. Every year we have a major gathering with liturgies and prayers at St. Tikhon's for Memorial Day at the end of May. It honors and makes prayers for our military veterans.
God Bless.
The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20

Offline youssef

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #75 on: May 19, 2017, 06:11:00 PM »
Quote from: youssef link=topic=71417.msg1457341#msg1457341makin1495229314
Next time I will chose an Orthodox priest if I am in Lebanon I choose metropolitan Georges Khodr because I think he is one of the best Christian existed today

I value Metropolitan George Khodr's opinions actually.  I look forward to hearing what he say.
Metropolian Gorge Khodr did make a troparian for labor day in 1 may.
Thank you for more good information showing that Metropolitan Gorge Khodr is very good metropolitan, making prayers for working people. Every year we have a major gathering with liturgies and prayers at St. Tikhon's for Memorial Day at the end of May. It honors and makes prayers for our military veterans.
God Bless.

I know he is very good, he is better than the Pope Francis who I consider it good not like Pope Benedict. But some think that we shouldn't make a troparion and an icon for a non Christian day . i don't  want to discuss some of his other idea now.

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #76 on: May 19, 2017, 06:57:38 PM »
Personally, I think metropolita George (Khodr) is one of the most wise Orthodox bishops of the current times. The same opinion shared (late for one moth) archbishop Jeremiah (Polish Orthodox Church).
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #77 on: May 19, 2017, 07:36:25 PM »
As you seem you like him also. Mina can you do the translation if I put an article for him in arabic :D

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #78 on: May 19, 2017, 07:39:08 PM »
Personally, I think metropolita George (Khodr) is one of the most wise Orthodox bishops of the current times. The same opinion shared (late for one moth) archbishop Jeremiah (Polish Orthodox Church).
Agreed. Even though I have t read him , Fr Seraphim Rose trashing him in his Orthodox
y and The Religion of the Future screed is an eloquent testimony to the sanity of the good metropolitan.
Beaucoup de ces dieux ont péri
C'est sur eux que pleurent les saules
Le grand Pan l'amour Jésus-Christ
Sont bien morts et les chats miaulent...

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #79 on: May 19, 2017, 07:40:39 PM »
As you seem you like him also. Mina can you do the translation if I put an article for him in arabic :D

I've translated a few of his articles/sermons from Arabic into Polish ;) So that's I can say I "know" him a bit
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #80 on: May 19, 2017, 08:53:06 PM »
Quote from: youssef link=topic=71417.msg1457341#msg1457341makin1495229314
Next time I will chose an Orthodox priest if I am in Lebanon I choose metropolitan Georges Khodr because I think he is one of the best Christian existed today

I value Metropolitan George Khodr's opinions actually.  I look forward to hearing what he say.
Metropolian Gorge Khodr did make a troparian for labor day in 1 may.
Thank you for more good information showing that Metropolitan Gorge Khodr is very good metropolitan, making prayers for working people. Every year we have a major gathering with liturgies and prayers at St. Tikhon's for Memorial Day at the end of May. It honors and makes prayers for our military veterans.
God Bless.

I know he is very good, he is better than the Pope Francis who I consider it good not like Pope Benedict. But some think that we shouldn't make a troparion and an icon for a non Christian day . i don't  want to discuss some of his other idea now.

Don't you, as a Roman Catholic, have some commemoration of St. Joseph the Worker (our St. Joseph the Betrothed) on this day?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #81 on: May 19, 2017, 11:03:15 PM »
As you seem you like him also. Mina can you do the translation if I put an article for him in arabic :D

I'm not very good at translating Arabic brother.  I am Egyptian by race and I do know the colloquial language, but I'm very poor at the written language.

Dominika is probably definitely waaaaaaay better than me.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 11:04:58 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #82 on: May 20, 2017, 08:32:07 AM »
As you seem you like him also. Mina can you do the translation if I put an article for him in arabic :D

I'm not very good at translating Arabic brother.  I am Egyptian by race and I do know the colloquial language, but I'm very poor at the written language.

Dominika is probably definitely waaaaaaay better than me.

Haha, you know, my professors (2 Syrians and one Iraqi) at the university claim that it's better not read anything written by Egyptans to not be influenced by such broken language :P
Anyway, I forgot, that many articles and sermons of the metropolitan George are translated into English:
http://www.georgeskhodr.org/en/index.html
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Something about Holding Hands
« Reply #83 on: May 20, 2017, 10:00:46 AM »
Yea but how will you know all the gossip among celebrities in Egypt who are forced to learn our perfect Arabic?  :P  :D
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.