Author Topic: American Liturgical Vestments  (Read 2255 times)

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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2017, 09:04:47 AM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....
OCA already exists, it's just a matter of everyone growing up and forsaking their boutique LARPs and obscure honors.

So they choose a name that obfuscates their heritage.

Which would be...?

Moscow. Or did they teach you that George Washington gave them a writ of autocephaly?

Jurisdiction is not heritage. By that logic the Antiochian Archdiocese's heritage is also "Moscow".

Who in the thread is arguing that the Antiochians are the true American church?

Nobody argued that OCA is the "true American church." I do see NicholasMyra giving his opinion that the OCA is the core around which Orthodox parishes in America should be unified. I myself don't think a simple expansion of the OCA is a viable solution to our jurisdictional problem- the OCA would itself likely be dissolved into whatever organization results. That said, your assertion that the OCA has a unitary heritage that can be summed up in "Moscow" is ill-informed. The majority of parishes that formed the OCA were founded by people from lands that were never part of the Russian empire or under MP jurisdiction. That includes Carpatho-Rus', Bulgarians, Romanians, and Albanians.

I did not know this. A friend of mine who went from his Southern Baptist upbringing (ugh!) to the Wisconsin Synod (double-ugh! They are basically Calvinists who for some perverse reason became Lutheran, Geneva gown and all), then to the Missouri Synod, and then to the OCA, considers himself to be essentially Russian Orthodox. To be fair, however, he never claimed the ENTIRE jurisdiction was. I had ignorantly assumed, that since their autocephaly was given by Moscow, that that is what they were. Thank you for enlightening me on this matter.

He endarkened me on it.
Funny how The Patriarch considers US to be a "colony" of Russia, and so we were not "invited" to Crete last June.
Also odd how, by whom and why the OCA was started.
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2017, 09:07:32 AM »
I have been converted to the notion of American unity under the Serbs.

I've decided to start a takeover movement insisting that America can only embrace its Orthodox heritage in a single jurisdiction with an all-Aleut liturgy.
We will have a proper Western Rite, but priests will still have to vest as Russian fur traders.

Aleut, Yu'Pik & Inuit.....you'all got my vote if running for Pope.
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2017, 09:13:23 AM »
Thank you.
It's always a blessing to find someone who knows their stuff, rather than run into the smarty-knuckleheads like myself and  the many posts here.
Maybe you know of
http://kwvestments.com/lecture_Aesthetics_SanFran_2016.html

who is worth the hour of anyone's day to enjoy.
=

Is it not about time?
We can carry on THE tradition however as there are nothing to zero patterns for vestment making written in English....is it not about time?
There is a Greek style, a Russian style, probably a Serbian one as well, so...

There are really just four styles in Eastern Orthodoxy: Byzantine, Athonite/Russian, Ukrainian, Alexandrian and Russian Old Believer.

The Byzantine vestments drape over the shoulders, whereas the Athonite vestments, which are the norm in Russia, feature the distinctive high collar on the phenolion.  The Ukrainian vestments are very similiar, but the Phelonion is cut slightly differently, so that more of the Epitrachelion is visible; it's cut a bit higher in the front.  I suspect this was for the comfort of priests in warm summers in Crimea and elsewhere.

The Russian Old Believer and Alexandrian vestments are of the Athonite and Byzantine type, with one exception: mitres.  The Pope and Patriarch of All Africa wears a distinctive mitre which in its shape vaguely resembles the old Papal Tiaras of the Roman Popes (ironically, the Coptic Pope, and the Ethiopian and Eritrean Patriarchs, wear dark red mitres of standard Byzantine design, the only aspect of Coptic and Ethiopian liturgical dress which is exactly identical to the Byzantine Rite equivalent; I suspect historically this was not the case, but rather, that these Byzantine style mitres replaced an earlier mitre that probably looked like the "emma", the mitre worn by Coptic bishops, when the Coptic church benefitted from increased financial prosperity and safety with the fall of the Ottoman Empire, or perhaps it started with Pope Shenouda of eternal memory; he made several changes to the vestments).

The Russian Old Believers who have priests and bishops wear more or less the standard Athonite vestments, but I have seen photographs of their bishops wearing distinctive fur-covered mitres.  These fur mitres probably predate the Nikonian reforms; I suspect at one time they were the standard in Russia.  I think some Edinovertsie in Russia also use these.   I think I once saw a Phelonion of the Athonite cut, made from fur as well, in use by an Old Believer.

Of course, these vestments violate the prohibition on animal products in the altar, but the easy explanation is that the Russian church was not historically aware of this, pre-Nikon, and this explains liturgical vestments made from fur as part of the ancient Russian worship tradition.

So basically, really you have three mainstream styles: Athonite, Ukrainian, which is so close to Athonite that most people couldnt tell the difference, and Byzantine.

This obviously is not counting the Western Orthodox vestments nor the vestments of the Oriental Orthodox (of which at present there are four styles, but in antiquity we probably had others, and the Syriac Orthodox Church was historically impoverished, so the beautiful, colorful vestments of Indian manufacture we have at present I doubt were in use outside of India until the late 19th or 20th century, but rather, very drab and simple vestments, and as I mentioned above, Pope Shenouda made changes to the vesture of monks, and I believe he changed that of the priests as well, and other Coptic vestments common 50 years ago like the Diaconal crown have become quite rare).
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2017, 09:19:40 AM »
Here's Met Hilarion wearing the furry mitre at an edinoverie parish.

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2017, 11:16:48 AM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....

I don't see the need.  The Ecumenical Patriarchate, in its very Greek Orthodox core, uses Byzantine style vestments in most parishes, but on Mount Athos, they use Athonite style vestments.  In the US, they use all three (Athonite at Elder Ephrems monasteries, Ukrainian at Ukrainian parishes, and Byzantine at GoArch and Greek parishes).  Likewise in the UK and in Paris, they use Athonite vestments in their Russian parishes, and Byzantine vestments in their Greek parishes.

Now, I am not saying I think the EP should be the one unified EO church in North America; I'm actually personally leaning against a manor change from the status quo, for fear a united church could be taken over by modernists who might implement the devastating changes to the liturgy proposed and actively used at New Skete.

But if there is to be a unified American church, it can continue to use all three of the major vestment styles, surely.

The only major issue might be choir dress.  I personally, despite being very much a liturgical maximalist and traditionalist in virtually every other respect, think that the Antiochian practice of wearing clerical collars similiar to the clergy of other denominations is useful in the US, as it identifies their priests clearly in public, and it is particularly useful with regards to chaplaaincy, and visits to hospitals, nursing homes, et cetera.
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Offline Agabus

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #50 on: August 17, 2017, 12:05:35 PM »
What style of vestments a unified American jurisdiction uses falls further down the list of priorities than the debate about faux-archaic versus contemporary English language liturgy.

Which is to say, very far down the list of priorities.

I don't understand why there'd need to be a change for parishes of 'x' origin to change how they vest once the episcopal assembly or whatever mutated political ecclesiastical court hammers out the one-bishop-per-territory issue.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2017, 01:01:12 PM »
I just hope, when it comes down to it, bishops wear this:

"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #52 on: August 19, 2017, 11:50:42 AM »
The Russian Old Believers who have priests and bishops wear more or less the standard Athonite vestments, but I have seen photographs of their bishops wearing distinctive fur-covered mitres.  These fur mitres probably predate the Nikonian reforms; I suspect at one time they were the standard in Russia.  I think some Edinovertsie in Russia also use these.   I think I once saw a Phelonion of the Athonite cut, made from fur as well, in use by an Old Believer.

Of course, these vestments violate the prohibition on animal products in the altar, but the easy explanation is that the Russian church was not historically aware of this, pre-Nikon, and this explains liturgical vestments made from fur as part of the ancient Russian worship tradition.

What's the source of this prohibition? It strikes me as too far-reaching to be true, especially in a medieval context. If it was a hard and fast rule, I don't see why the pre-Nikonian Russian Church would be unaware of it.
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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #53 on: August 19, 2017, 02:58:43 PM »
The Russian Old Believers who have priests and bishops wear more or less the standard Athonite vestments, but I have seen photographs of their bishops wearing distinctive fur-covered mitres.  These fur mitres probably predate the Nikonian reforms; I suspect at one time they were the standard in Russia.  I think some Edinovertsie in Russia also use these.   I think I once saw a Phelonion of the Athonite cut, made from fur as well, in use by an Old Believer.

Of course, these vestments violate the prohibition on animal products in the altar, but the easy explanation is that the Russian church was not historically aware of this, pre-Nikon, and this explains liturgical vestments made from fur as part of the ancient Russian worship tradition.

What's the source of this prohibition? It strikes me as too far-reaching to be true, especially in a medieval context. If it was a hard and fast rule, I don't see why the pre-Nikonian Russian Church would be unaware of it.

Its not really hard and fast these days; leather belts, leather bound books and even leather shoes turn up in EO altars, even though they aren't supposed to.  The Syriac Orthodox strike me as being the most strict about it; the Copts follow, except for their use of peacock or ostrich feathers, but these, to be fair, are not animal products in the sense that they were obtained by killing said animal.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

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This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Jonathan

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #54 on: August 21, 2017, 10:15:22 AM »
The Russian Old Believers who have priests and bishops wear more or less the standard Athonite vestments, but I have seen photographs of their bishops wearing distinctive fur-covered mitres.  These fur mitres probably predate the Nikonian reforms; I suspect at one time they were the standard in Russia.  I think some Edinovertsie in Russia also use these.   I think I once saw a Phelonion of the Athonite cut, made from fur as well, in use by an Old Believer.

Of course, these vestments violate the prohibition on animal products in the altar, but the easy explanation is that the Russian church was not historically aware of this, pre-Nikon, and this explains liturgical vestments made from fur as part of the ancient Russian worship tradition.

What's the source of this prohibition? It strikes me as too far-reaching to be true, especially in a medieval context. If it was a hard and fast rule, I don't see why the pre-Nikonian Russian Church would be unaware of it.

Its not really hard and fast these days; leather belts, leather bound books and even leather shoes turn up in EO altars, even though they aren't supposed to.  The Syriac Orthodox strike me as being the most strict about it; the Copts follow, except for their use of peacock or ostrich feathers, but these, to be fair, are not animal products in the sense that they were obtained by killing said animal.

Leather crosses are very common on coptic clergy in the altar...

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Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #55 on: August 21, 2017, 11:18:41 AM »
The Russian Old Believers who have priests and bishops wear more or less the standard Athonite vestments, but I have seen photographs of their bishops wearing distinctive fur-covered mitres.  These fur mitres probably predate the Nikonian reforms; I suspect at one time they were the standard in Russia.  I think some Edinovertsie in Russia also use these.   I think I once saw a Phelonion of the Athonite cut, made from fur as well, in use by an Old Believer.

Of course, these vestments violate the prohibition on animal products in the altar, but the easy explanation is that the Russian church was not historically aware of this, pre-Nikon, and this explains liturgical vestments made from fur as part of the ancient Russian worship tradition.

What's the source of this prohibition? It strikes me as too far-reaching to be true, especially in a medieval context. If it was a hard and fast rule, I don't see why the pre-Nikonian Russian Church would be unaware of it.

Its not really hard and fast these days; leather belts, leather bound books and even leather shoes turn up in EO altars, even though they aren't supposed to.  The Syriac Orthodox strike me as being the most strict about it; the Copts follow, except for their use of peacock or ostrich feathers, but these, to be fair, are not animal products in the sense that they were obtained by killing said animal.

Leather crosses are very common on coptic clergy in the altar...

Good point.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.