Author Topic: American Liturgical Vestments  (Read 2253 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline LenInSebastopol

  • Dimly Illumined
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,595
American Liturgical Vestments
« on: May 10, 2017, 02:14:45 PM »
Is it not about time?
We can carry on THE tradition however as there are nothing to zero patterns for vestment making written in English....is it not about time?
There is a Greek style, a Russian style, probably a Serbian one as well, so...
God is The Creator of All Free Beings

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,928
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2017, 02:19:33 PM »
What makes an American vestment? Brocade footballs and eagles and Mickey Mouse? Maybe all our priests should dress like Elvis impersonators? No thanks. Only countries with actual culture should get to make their own vestment styles.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 02:20:05 PM by Iconodule »
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,154
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2017, 02:24:07 PM »
One priest I know wears very low-key vestments that are not very ornate or decorative. The other wears very ornate vestments. I'm pretty sure it's at the priest's discretion is it not?
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”- St. Ambrose of Milan

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." -Fr. Seraphim Rose

"He who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)

Offline augustin717

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,371
  • Faith: Higher Criticism
  • Jurisdiction: Dutch
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2017, 04:54:20 PM »
The confederate flag?
She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

Online Asteriktos

  • Lame!
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 35,459
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2017, 05:44:50 PM »
We have a poster who sometimes still pops in who is something of an expert on capes and related clothing items in American liturgical contexts, perhaps he'll chime in.

Offline RaphaCam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,283
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2017, 06:03:56 PM »
Only countries with actual culture should get to make their own vestment styles.
Related image
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,080
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2017, 06:06:58 PM »
Only countries with actual culture should get to make their own vestment styles.
Related image

Africa has gobs of culture and cultures. Not that this chap is African, and I'm not sure your point.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 06:07:17 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,080
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2017, 06:11:11 PM »
Is it not about time?
We can carry on THE tradition however as there are nothing to zero patterns for vestment making written in English....is it not about time?
There is a Greek style, a Russian style, probably a Serbian one as well, so...

There isn't really an American traditional vestment. The culture who could make any claim would be the Natives, naturally, but after that the English and Germans (they were the prominent cultures in Colonial times), and in certain specific places the French (e.g. Louisiana), the Spanish (throughout the West really), and the Russians (Alaska of course).
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 32,629
  • Pope Pius XIII, play for us!
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2017, 06:12:49 PM »
What makes an American vestment?

This is a great question, esp. since the liturgical vestments of most Eastern traditions are basically the same (and are close enough to their Western counterparts). 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,928
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2017, 06:15:50 PM »
I did see a Russian phelonion made with material that had a Chinese dragon pattern. Not sure if this is common or not.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Online Asteriktos

  • Lame!
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 35,459
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2017, 06:19:42 PM »
I have no idea what Americanized vestments would look like, but I do know that historically when societies gained autonomy and started doing their own Eastern Orthodox thing, it often had little to do with advanced culture (or any culture whatsoever), and more to do with what the leaders of that society could pry from the hands of Rome or Constantinople when the latter needed aid of some kind. (Or better yet, the society would pit patriarchates against one another, waiting to see who would offer the better deal.)

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,080
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2017, 06:29:36 PM »
I have no idea what Americanized vestments would look like, but I do know that historically when societies gained autonomy and started doing their own Eastern Orthodox thing, it often had little to do with advanced culture (or any culture whatsoever), and more to do with what the leaders of that society could pry from the hands of Rome or Constantinople when the latter needed aid of some kind. (Or better yet, the society would pit patriarchates against one another, waiting to see who would offer the better deal.)

Weavers were a Roman monopoly?

"Culture" does not mean "culture."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Online Asteriktos

  • Lame!
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 35,459
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2017, 06:51:04 PM »
I have no idea what Americanized vestments would look like, but I do know that historically when societies gained autonomy and started doing their own Eastern Orthodox thing, it often had little to do with advanced culture (or any culture whatsoever), and more to do with what the leaders of that society could pry from the hands of Rome or Constantinople when the latter needed aid of some kind. (Or better yet, the society would pit patriarchates against one another, waiting to see who would offer the better deal.)

Weavers were a Roman monopoly?

"Culture" does not mean "culture."

I was responding mostly to the idea that America had no chips in the game because it had a lulzy culture.

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,080
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2017, 06:55:07 PM »
I have no idea what Americanized vestments would look like, but I do know that historically when societies gained autonomy and started doing their own Eastern Orthodox thing, it often had little to do with advanced culture (or any culture whatsoever), and more to do with what the leaders of that society could pry from the hands of Rome or Constantinople when the latter needed aid of some kind. (Or better yet, the society would pit patriarchates against one another, waiting to see who would offer the better deal.)

Weavers were a Roman monopoly?

"Culture" does not mean "culture."

I was responding mostly to the idea that America had no chips in the game because it had a lulzy culture.

And you completely missed which usage of "culture" is being talked about.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline RaphaCam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,283
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2017, 09:24:34 PM »
Africa has gobs of culture and cultures. Not that this chap is African, and I'm not sure your point.
I was just entering Iconodule's joke. :P
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)

Offline Justin Kolodziej

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 699
  • Please forgive the embarrasing avatar mishap.
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of Atlanta
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2017, 09:57:57 PM »
The confederate flag?
Only in the Diocese of the South.
Quote from: Nun M.
The dread Pantocrator...is also "Christouli mou", (my little Christ), who really listens when you run in to your neighborhood church on the way to work to cry and light a candle because your daughter is in trouble at school. The untouchable and all-holy Mother of God is also "Panayitsa mou", who really will take your part before the court of heaven because, just like your own mom, she’ll always stick up for her children, no matter how badly they’ve behaved.

Online HaydenTE

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,102
  • Always honest, occasionally correct.
  • Faith: Ukrainian Greek Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Saint Josaphat in Parma
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2017, 11:17:58 PM »
Maybe all our priests should dress like Elvis impersonators?
The first time my mother saw Byzantine vestiments she said the priest was wearing and Elvis costume.
"For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul?" - Mark 8:36 (DRA)

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,357
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2017, 08:00:08 AM »
The confederate flag?
Only in the Diocese of the South.

Possibly in Brazil.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,357
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2017, 08:01:07 AM »
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,928
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2017, 09:09:57 AM »
Maybe all our priests should dress like Elvis impersonators?
The first time my mother saw Byzantine vestiments she said the priest was wearing and Elvis costume.

Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal... Don't be cruel.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,458
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2017, 09:39:55 AM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....




 
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,357
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2017, 09:46:38 AM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....

The liturgical language issue will ultimately be resolved by working out some version of American Orthodox Esperanto.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline Alpha60

  • The Confederate Flag Is Diabolical and Blasphemous
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,206
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2017, 08:28:07 AM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....

The liturgical language issue will ultimately be resolved by working out some version of American Orthodox Esperanto.

There are Catholic priests who say the Novus Ordo mass in Esperanto.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 32,629
  • Pope Pius XIII, play for us!
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2017, 11:23:10 AM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....

The liturgical language issue will ultimately be resolved by working out some version of American Orthodox Esperanto.

There are Catholic priests who say the Novus Ordo mass in Esperanto.

At least it's not Latin.  #spiritofvatican2
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,546
    • Hyperdox Herman
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Partially-overlapping
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2017, 12:42:23 PM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....
OCA already exists, it's just a matter of everyone growing up and forsaking their boutique LARPs and obscure honors.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 12:42:59 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Pope Francis
Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as 'Animal politicus.' So at least I am a human person.

Vote for a Ministry section on OC.net

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 32,629
  • Pope Pius XIII, play for us!
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2017, 12:54:48 PM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....
OCA already exists, it's just a matter of everyone growing up and forsaking their boutique LARPs and obscure honors.

Man up and be ROCOR.
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,080
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2017, 12:58:54 PM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....
OCA already exists, it's just a matter of everyone growing up and forsaking their boutique LARPs and obscure honors.

So they choose a name that obfuscates their heritage. Don't make more out of it than that.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,928
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2017, 01:09:12 PM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....
OCA already exists, it's just a matter of everyone growing up and forsaking their boutique LARPs and obscure honors.

So they choose a name that obfuscates their heritage.

Which would be...?
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,080
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2017, 01:25:56 PM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....
OCA already exists, it's just a matter of everyone growing up and forsaking their boutique LARPs and obscure honors.

So they choose a name that obfuscates their heritage.

Which would be...?

Moscow. Or did they teach you that George Washington gave them a writ of autocephaly?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,928
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2017, 01:29:02 PM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....
OCA already exists, it's just a matter of everyone growing up and forsaking their boutique LARPs and obscure honors.

So they choose a name that obfuscates their heritage.

Which would be...?

Moscow. Or did they teach you that George Washington gave them a writ of autocephaly?

Jurisdiction is not heritage. By that logic the Antiochian Archdiocese's heritage is also "Moscow".
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,080
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2017, 01:30:40 PM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....
OCA already exists, it's just a matter of everyone growing up and forsaking their boutique LARPs and obscure honors.

So they choose a name that obfuscates their heritage.

Which would be...?

Moscow. Or did they teach you that George Washington gave them a writ of autocephaly?

Jurisdiction is not heritage. By that logic the Antiochian Archdiocese's heritage is also "Moscow".

Who in the thread is arguing that the Antiochians are the true American church?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,928
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2017, 01:40:27 PM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....
OCA already exists, it's just a matter of everyone growing up and forsaking their boutique LARPs and obscure honors.

So they choose a name that obfuscates their heritage.

Which would be...?

Moscow. Or did they teach you that George Washington gave them a writ of autocephaly?

Jurisdiction is not heritage. By that logic the Antiochian Archdiocese's heritage is also "Moscow".

Who in the thread is arguing that the Antiochians are the true American church?

Nobody argued that OCA is the "true American church." I do see NicholasMyra giving his opinion that the OCA is the core around which Orthodox parishes in America should be unified. I myself don't think a simple expansion of the OCA is a viable solution to our jurisdictional problem- the OCA would itself likely be dissolved into whatever organization results. That said, your assertion that the OCA has a unitary heritage that can be summed up in "Moscow" is ill-informed. The majority of parishes that formed the OCA were founded by people from lands that were never part of the Russian empire or under MP jurisdiction. That includes Carpatho-Rus', Bulgarians, Romanians, and Albanians.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,080
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2017, 02:05:02 PM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....
OCA already exists, it's just a matter of everyone growing up and forsaking their boutique LARPs and obscure honors.

So they choose a name that obfuscates their heritage.

Which would be...?

Moscow. Or did they teach you that George Washington gave them a writ of autocephaly?

Jurisdiction is not heritage. By that logic the Antiochian Archdiocese's heritage is also "Moscow".

Who in the thread is arguing that the Antiochians are the true American church?

Nobody argued that OCA is the "true American church." I do see NicholasMyra giving his opinion that the OCA is the core around which Orthodox parishes in America should be unified. I myself don't think a simple expansion of the OCA is a viable solution to our jurisdictional problem- the OCA would itself likely be dissolved into whatever organization results. That said, your assertion that the OCA has a unitary heritage that can be summed up in "Moscow" is ill-informed. The majority of parishes that formed the OCA were founded by people from lands that were never part of the Russian empire or under MP jurisdiction. That includes Carpatho-Rus', Bulgarians, Romanians, and Albanians.

Bored today, huh?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Diego

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 932
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2017, 03:13:40 PM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....
OCA already exists, it's just a matter of everyone growing up and forsaking their boutique LARPs and obscure honors.

So they choose a name that obfuscates their heritage.

Which would be...?

Moscow. Or did they teach you that George Washington gave them a writ of autocephaly?

Jurisdiction is not heritage. By that logic the Antiochian Archdiocese's heritage is also "Moscow".

Who in the thread is arguing that the Antiochians are the true American church?

Nobody argued that OCA is the "true American church." I do see NicholasMyra giving his opinion that the OCA is the core around which Orthodox parishes in America should be unified. I myself don't think a simple expansion of the OCA is a viable solution to our jurisdictional problem- the OCA would itself likely be dissolved into whatever organization results. That said, your assertion that the OCA has a unitary heritage that can be summed up in "Moscow" is ill-informed. The majority of parishes that formed the OCA were founded by people from lands that were never part of the Russian empire or under MP jurisdiction. That includes Carpatho-Rus', Bulgarians, Romanians, and Albanians.

I did not know this. A friend of mine who went from his Southern Baptist upbringing (ugh!) to the Wisconsin Synod (double-ugh! They are basically Calvinists who for some perverse reason became Lutheran, Geneva gown and all), then to the Missouri Synod, and then to the OCA, considers himself to be essentially Russian Orthodox. To be fair, however, he never claimed the ENTIRE jurisdiction was. I had ignorantly assumed, that since their autocephaly was given by Moscow, that that is what they were. Thank you for enlightening me on this matter.

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,928
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2017, 03:18:48 PM »
There are parishes in the OCA with genuine Russian background. And an unfortunate thing about the OCA is that, by their own initiative, most or all of the Carpatho-Rus' parishes "Russified" and adopted Russian-style music, liturgics, etc. There was an attitude that the Carpatho-Rus' traditions were somehow bound up with Greek Catholicism and that Russian stuff was somehow inherently more Orthodox. One result is that there are parishioners whose ancestors came from, say, Slovakia or Poland but who think they are Russian.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 03:20:04 PM by Iconodule »
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,928
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2017, 03:23:37 PM »
US influence in Guatemala comes mainly in the form of death squads and dictators.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Keble

  • All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,621
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2017, 07:23:10 AM »
I dunno, I've mad two chasubles over the years. Oh, of course western vestments, but hey...
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 07:23:29 AM by Keble »

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,546
    • Hyperdox Herman
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Partially-overlapping
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2017, 03:18:51 AM »
I have been converted to the notion of American unity under the Serbs.
Quote from: Pope Francis
Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as 'Animal politicus.' So at least I am a human person.

Vote for a Ministry section on OC.net

Offline Alpha60

  • The Confederate Flag Is Diabolical and Blasphemous
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,206
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2017, 06:43:00 AM »
I dunno, I've mad two chasubles over the years. Oh, of course western vestments, but hey...

A chasuble is basically a phelonion with the added restriction of being used only in the Mass and other sacramental services, whereas the Phelonion can be used in situations where in the Western Rite you would wear a Cope.

I like the parallel by the way between the Catholic priest removing his cope after the Introit and donning a chasuble, and the vesting of the Bishop in an Orthodox hierarchical liturgy.  I believe these are relics of some ancient public vesting rite in one of the more liturgically influential churches (probably Jerusalem, from which all of the rites take so much, for example, the basic template for Holy Week, due to pilgrimages).
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,357
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2017, 09:41:59 AM »
I have been converted to the notion of American unity under the Serbs.

I've decided to start a takeover movement insisting that America can only embrace its Orthodox heritage in a single jurisdiction with an all-Aleut liturgy.

We will have a proper Western Rite, but priests will still have to vest as Russian fur traders.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 09:42:21 AM by Agabus »
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 32,629
  • Pope Pius XIII, play for us!
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2017, 10:06:07 AM »
I have been converted to the notion of American unity under the Serbs.

I'll bet you have...
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,080
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2017, 12:48:14 PM »
I have been converted to the notion of American unity under the Serbs.

I've decided to start a takeover movement insisting that America can only embrace its Orthodox heritage in a single jurisdiction with an all-Aleut liturgy.

We will have a proper Western Rite, but priests will still have to vest as Russian fur traders.

I like it.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,546
    • Hyperdox Herman
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Partially-overlapping
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2017, 11:32:32 PM »
I have been converted to the notion of American unity under the Serbs.

I'll bet you have...
Me too
Quote from: Pope Francis
Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as 'Animal politicus.' So at least I am a human person.

Vote for a Ministry section on OC.net

Offline Alpha60

  • The Confederate Flag Is Diabolical and Blasphemous
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,206
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2017, 02:39:26 AM »
Is it not about time?
We can carry on THE tradition however as there are nothing to zero patterns for vestment making written in English....is it not about time?
There is a Greek style, a Russian style, probably a Serbian one as well, so...

There are really just four styles in Eastern Orthodoxy: Byzantine, Athonite/Russian, Ukrainian, Alexandrian and Russian Old Believer.

The Byzantine vestments drape over the shoulders, whereas the Athonite vestments, which are the norm in Russia, feature the distinctive high collar on the phenolion.  The Ukrainian vestments are very similiar, but the Phelonion is cut slightly differently, so that more of the Epitrachelion is visible; it's cut a bit higher in the front.  I suspect this was for the comfort of priests in warm summers in Crimea and elsewhere.

The Russian Old Believer and Alexandrian vestments are of the Athonite and Byzantine type, with one exception: mitres.  The Pope and Patriarch of All Africa wears a distinctive mitre which in its shape vaguely resembles the old Papal Tiaras of the Roman Popes (ironically, the Coptic Pope, and the Ethiopian and Eritrean Patriarchs, wear dark red mitres of standard Byzantine design, the only aspect of Coptic and Ethiopian liturgical dress which is exactly identical to the Byzantine Rite equivalent; I suspect historically this was not the case, but rather, that these Byzantine style mitres replaced an earlier mitre that probably looked like the "emma", the mitre worn by Coptic bishops, when the Coptic church benefitted from increased financial prosperity and safety with the fall of the Ottoman Empire, or perhaps it started with Pope Shenouda of eternal memory; he made several changes to the vestments).

The Russian Old Believers who have priests and bishops wear more or less the standard Athonite vestments, but I have seen photographs of their bishops wearing distinctive fur-covered mitres.  These fur mitres probably predate the Nikonian reforms; I suspect at one time they were the standard in Russia.  I think some Edinovertsie in Russia also use these.   I think I once saw a Phelonion of the Athonite cut, made from fur as well, in use by an Old Believer.

Of course, these vestments violate the prohibition on animal products in the altar, but the easy explanation is that the Russian church was not historically aware of this, pre-Nikon, and this explains liturgical vestments made from fur as part of the ancient Russian worship tradition.

So basically, really you have three mainstream styles: Athonite, Ukrainian, which is so close to Athonite that most people couldnt tell the difference, and Byzantine.

This obviously is not counting the Western Orthodox vestments nor the vestments of the Oriental Orthodox (of which at present there are four styles, but in antiquity we probably had others, and the Syriac Orthodox Church was historically impoverished, so the beautiful, colorful vestments of Indian manufacture we have at present I doubt were in use outside of India until the late 19th or 20th century, but rather, very drab and simple vestments, and as I mentioned above, Pope Shenouda made changes to the vesture of monks, and I believe he changed that of the priests as well, and other Coptic vestments common 50 years ago like the Diaconal crown have become quite rare).
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline LenInSebastopol

  • Dimly Illumined
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,595
Re: American Liturgical Vestments
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2017, 08:59:26 AM »
Frankly, this is an issue for the Single Jurisdiction Orthodox Church of America (SJOCOA) to resolve....after we can agree on their formation.....
OCA already exists, it's just a matter of everyone growing up and forsaking their boutique LARPs and obscure honors.

So they choose a name that obfuscates their heritage.

Which would be...?

Moscow. Or did they teach you that George Washington gave them a writ of autocephaly?

Well, he was the general of autocephaly.
God is The Creator of All Free Beings